SQ 744

[mgsooner]

This thing is such a turd that it deserves its own thread.

Information provided by Sen. Dan Newberry, Tulsa (R)

SQ 744
Adds a new Article to the Constitution. It sets a minimum average amount the State must annually spend on common schools. The measure repeals a Section of the State Constitution. The repealed section required the Legislature annually to spend $42.00 for each common school student. Common schools offer pre-kindergarten through twelfth grade.

It requires the State to spend annually, no less than the average amount spent on each student by the surrounding states.*Those surrounding states are Missouri, Texas, Kansas, Arkansas, Colorado and New Mexico. When the average amount spent by surrounding states declines, Oklahoma must spend the amount it spent the year before.

The measure deals with money spent on day-to-day operations of the schools and school districts. This includes spending on instructions, support services and non-instruction services. The measure does not deal with money spent to pay debt, on buildings or on other capital needs.

Requires that increased spending begin in the first fiscal year after its passage.

It requires that the surrounding state average be met in the third fiscal year after passage.

SQ 744 - Testimony by agency heads at an interim study found that:
A 20% cut for the Department of Corrections would mean 8,400 criminals let loose from prisons with 8 or 9 facilities being shut down.

There are not enough minimum-security prisoners to meet that number, so some of those released would be medium-security felons.

A 20% cut for Higher Education would mean higher tuition, fewer class choices and severe cuts in scholarship and student work opportunities.

A 20% cut for Mental Health and Substance Abuse Services would mean either cutting services for the patients with the most severe problems so that the most people could be helped or cutting services to low-cost treatment for many people which could result in an increase in severe cases.

It would also mean the elimination of programs like drug courts which would mean more people going to prison.

A 20% cut for the Department of Transportation would be more than a loss of just state dollars because of federal matching funds.

ODOT would lose $395-million from its 8-year plan. That’s enough money to pay for 200 bridges.

A 20% cut for the Health Care Authority (HCA) would be $196-million in state dollars plus another $343-million in federal matching dollars for a total of $539-million reduction in state health dollars.

HCA would need to either reduce the number of people covered by SoonerCare, reduce benefits offered under SoonerCare or both.

This would come at a time when more people are requiring and qualifying for SoonerCare because of the economy.

A 20% cut for the Department of Public Safety (DPS) would mean the elimination of 253 jobs. 125 of those would be troopers with the other 128 civilian jobs.

DPS Commissioner Kevin Ward says, “no doubt highways would not be safer” with the cuts.

Department of Human Services has some programs that federal law says can’t be cut.* That means other programs will be cut more than 30%. Some of those include senior nutrition programs and foster care/adoption subsidies for children not eligible for federal help.

Would also mean more than doubling the waiting list for services for those with developmental disabilities.

If passed it could result in a loss of approximately 7,000 state workers and about 25% of state services, which would include veteran’s care.

OEA says regional average does not include Oklahoma because doing so would lower the regional average.

[badger]

Is it safe to just vote "no" on every damn state question this November?

[Midtowner]

What they're really afraid of is having to cut the billions corporate welfare the state pays out every year. Ever wonder where all the money comes from to pay for these 'no' commercials?

[soonerchk]

The think I love most about 744 is that according to their own ads, it can be funded by the state legislators cutting their pay.


I'm quite certain that will happen. Probably at the same time Mary Fallin and Jari Askins french kiss on the steps of the Capitol.

[mgsooner]

What they're really afraid of is having to cut the billions corporate welfare the state pays out every year. Ever wonder where all the money comes from to pay for these 'no' commercials?

I keep hearing proponents of this measure talk about "corporate welfare", but they're strangely silent when it comes to everything else I posted above. Well maybe it's not so strange.

[OklahomaTuba]

Ever wonder where all the money comes from to pay for stupid **** like SQ744?

[hipsterdoofus]

I'm not sure how the teacher's unions are less evil than the corporate types...

[OklahomaTuba]

I'm not sure how the teacher's unions are less evil than the corporate types...well, teacher unions have just about bankrupted this country with their insane pensions. OK's is so badly underfunded it should blowup nicely here in about 5-10 years or so.

And they've just about destroyed what was once the greatest public education system in the world.

And now want even MORE money, which has proven to do nothing to help education.

But no, their not evil at all. Just greedy leeches that need to be outlawed.

http://beauforttribune.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/201010_blog_mccluskey111.jpg

I would say that this is a bad investment.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Yup, that's solution, there's a problem with education so lets just throw money at it and hope it goes away.

You have to fix the main problem. One of them being that most schools don't give a damn about education. They only care about sports and getting the latest and greatest baseball bats and basketball courts. Of course as mentioned you have teacher's unions as well.

I won't vote "no" but "**** no" on 744.

[hipsterdoofus]

well, teacher unions have just about bankrupted this country with their insane pensions. OK's is so badly underfunded it should blowup nicely here in about 5-10 years or so.

And they've just about destroyed what was once the greatest public education system in the world.

And now want even MORE money, which has proven to do nothing to help education.

But no, their not evil at all. Just greedy leeches that need to be outlawed.

http://beauforttribune.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/201010_blog_mccluskey111.jpg

I would say that this is a bad investment.

Was kind of a rhetorical question :rolleyes:

[Tulsa_Fireman]

UNIONS ARE DE DEBBIL

[mgsooner]

The Oklahoman CRUSHES SQ 744: http://www.newsok.com/separating-fact-fiction-on-sq-744/article/3506350?custom_click=pod_lead_opinion-oklahoman-editorials&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+StatelineorgRss-Education+(Stateline.org+RSS+-+Education)

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Looking over the 2011 state budget which poses an interesting question about SQ 744 and what's right.

The Dept. of Education is the largest single line item in the entire budget at a massive 2.5 billion dollars. Combined with higher ed funding, another 1 billion dollars, these two line items make up over half of the entire state budget of 6.9 billion. Counting other education line items, it brings the total to a shade under 3.7 billion dollars.

Which leads to my question. We're spending over half of our entire state budget on education and over a third of the entire budget on common education alone. How much more do we need to spend as a state before we realize that maybe it's not what we're doing, it's HOW we're doing it?

[reflector]

Is it safe to just vote "no" on every damn state question this November?

I might actually do this.

[brian]

consolidate, get rid of half the superintendents or so, there is 20 or 30 mil to get you started

[mgsooner]

Looking over the 2011 state budget which poses an interesting question about SQ 744 and what's right.

The Dept. of Education is the largest single line item in the entire budget at a massive 2.5 billion dollars. Combined with higher ed funding, another 1 billion dollars, these two line items make up over half of the entire state budget of 6.9 billion. Counting other education line items, it brings the total to a shade under 3.7 billion dollars.

Which leads to my question. We're spending over half of our entire state budget on education and over a third of the entire budget on common education alone. How much more do we need to spend as a state before we realize that maybe it's not what we're doing, it's HOW we're doing it?

*applause*

[Leroy Lizard]

consolidate, get rid of half the superintendents or so, there is 20 or 30 mil to get you started

Oklahoma is a largely rural state. You're not going to be able to get rid of anywhere close to half the superintendents. And if you consolidate school districts they end up having to hire more assistant superintendents to bear the load. Two assistant superintendents may be able to handle 10 schools, but they would struggle to handle 20 schools.

[OklahomaTuba]

The Dept. of Education is the largest single line item in the entire budget at a massive 2.5 billion dollars. Combined with higher ed funding, another 1 billion dollars, these two line items make up over half of the entire state budget of 6.9 billion. Counting other education line items, it brings the total to a shade under 3.7 billion dollars.

And don't forget, we still have to come up with $900 Billion (http://www.edchoice.org/Newsroom/News/Education-Week---Analysis--Teacher-Pensions-Underfunded-by--900-Billion.aspx) of unfunded teacher pensions.

$900 Billion.

Oklahoma's is a big part of that.

Wheres that going to come from?

[mgsooner]

SQ 744 would actually result in some education programs being CUT: http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectid=261&articleid=20101010_261_G1_CUTLIN467815

[Tulsa_Fireman]

And don't forget, we still have to come up with $900 Billion (http://www.edchoice.org/Newsroom/News/Education-Week---Analysis--Teacher-Pensions-Underfunded-by--900-Billion.aspx) of unfunded teacher pensions.

$900 Billion.

Oklahoma's is a big part of that.

Wheres that going to come from?

No it's not. Quit pumping bullsh*t to pimp your agenda.

For starters, for FY2011, the Oklahoma Teachers plan statewide is underfunded by 35 million dollars in contribution receipts by funding allocations revised and redirected in the 2011 budget because of the decrease in overall revenue. It's a sliver of the standing operating budget statewide.

But the "billions" in unfunded liability Scott Meachem has proclaimed, the growing spectre of a sudden and massive multi-billion dollar unfunded liability explosion on the Oklahoma taxpayer is a smokescreen of crap. Yes, the numbers jive and are accurate.

IF EVERY VESTED TEACHER IN THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA RETIRED RIGHT NOW.

That's how pension liability is calculated. What percentage of the number of vested employees could we pay pension benefits to should they ALL just all of a sudden punch out. And it does NOT take into account partial pensions from underage and below requirement retirements for vested participants.

So yes, it can be said that the Oklahoma Teachers pension system is underfunded at roughly 50% vested. It can also be said that the system partially services its own debt via the investment of the funds in that system. It can ALSO be said that the decrease in funding and corresponding decrease in percentage of vestment is due to budget cuts that have had to take place nationwide at state and municipal levels. It can also be said that decreased state and municipal revenues are the perfect storm for demagogues and sycophants to sink their claws into what they see as a gigantic piggy bank just waiting for a hammer and a defined contribution retirement plan to free up any and all revenue to go to their OWN self-interest and porcine projects as opposed to those who have worked, contributed, and created a benefit that they've earned through service.

All this AND Oklahoma's public service pensions are some of the lowest paying defined benefit plans in the United States, coupled with some of the highest employee contribution percentages.

But it's all about the scare tactics, ain't it. 900 billion in unfunded liability. Ticking time bombs. Union hate. Destroyed economies and crushed livelihoods. All from you swallowing a load of uninformed crap from a bunch of Tammany Hall pirates whose sole purpose is to not only steal the pot, but steal water you put in the damn thing.

[StoopTroup]

I've never had a fire at my house....why do we need a full time Fire Dept?

Talk about a waste of money...

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Duh.

It's because of the debbil UNIONS.

*cue ominous music*

[Okla-homey]

Is it safe to just vote "no" on every damn state question this November?

That's precisely what I'm doing. They are all stupid or bad for Oklahoma, or both.

[Okla-homey]

Look. I like teachers. They turned me from an ignunt knot-head into a guy who learned how to learn and excited a desire in me to do so. When it's all said and done, that's their job.

But here's what bugs me. The danged teachers orgs/unions have hijacked what used to be a profession and hijacked it into a trade union.

Folks, about 1 out of 60 doctors in this country lose their license to practice medicine because they're dangerous every year. Ditto RN's. About 1 out of 90 lawyers in this country have their license yanked each year because they're crooked or buffoons. Teachers? 1 out of 2500 lose their jobs each year because they are crappy teachers. That's whacked.

Until that changes, I will never vote to raise public education funding.

[Okla-homey]

Which leads to my question. We're spending over half of our entire state budget on education and over a third of the entire budget on common education alone. How much more do we need to spend as a state before we realize that maybe it's not what we're doing, it's HOW we're doing it?

DING-DING-DING. The Fireman wins the prize!

[Mjcpr]

That's precisely what I'm doing. They are all stupid or bad for Oklahoma, or both.

Even increasing the reserve/rainy day fund? :confused:

[Okla-homey]

Even increasing the reserve/rainy day fund? :confused:

Yep.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

So any polls on this question. What is the state voters thinking?

I am currently considering life choices as far as retirement plans (gotta save money up for that big plot of land). If SQ744 passes, it only makes Oklahoma look less desireable from a retiree standpoint.

[OnlyOneOklahoma]

That's precisely what I'm doing. They are all stupid or bad for Oklahoma, or both.

I got a stern lecture for voicing this opinion around my Grandfather's wife. She thought I did not understand the Questions and would not accept me telling her that I legitimately disagree with all of them.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

So did you pop her in the mouth?

[Soonermagik]

Agreed!! I will be voting against this nonsense.

[mgsooner]

So any polls on this question. What is the state voters thinking?

I am currently considering life choices as far as retirement plans (gotta save money up for that big plot of land). If SQ744 passes, it only makes Oklahoma look less desireable from a retiree standpoint.

Early polling had approx 60% in favor, last poll I saw had about 60% opposed. Basically as people discover what exactly this measure would do they inevitably turn against it, and rightfully so.

[Big 8]

well, teacher unions have just about bankrupted this country with their insane pensions.

No, eight years of Bush/Cheney and the free rein given the banks and slimeballs on Wall Street bankrupted the country.

Oklahoma as a state is victim to the cronyism and good ol boy network who pad their own pockets as well as those of the oil companies and other special interests.

However, education doesn't need much more money, if any. What is available needs to be utilized properly. Also, the ****ty and/or absentee parents need to step up and not expect the schools to raise their children for them. The single strongest indicator of academic success is parental interest and involvement.

[Big 8]

Look. I like teachers. They turned me from an ignunt knot-head into a guy who learned how to learn and excited a desire in me to do so. When it's all said and done, that's their job.

But here's what bugs me. The danged teachers orgs/unions have hijacked what used to be a profession and hijacked it into a trade union.

Folks, about 1 out of 60 doctors in this country lose their license to practice medicine because they're dangerous every year. Ditto RN's. About 1 out of 90 lawyers in this country have their license yanked each year because they're crooked or buffoons. Teachers? 1 out of 2500 lose their jobs each year because they are crappy teachers. That's whacked.

Until that changes, I will never vote to raise public education funding.

Maybe teachers should be held to higher standards, like the other degreed professionals you mention, when the teaching profession also has similar salaries and social prestige.

[Sooner_Havok]

stupid question. That said, our politicians really need a ****ing pay cut. If that state question came up I would vote yes.

[mgsooner]

Even Henry opposes this thing, and he's never met an education funding measure he didn't like - until now.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20101027_11_0_OLHMIY562486

[sooner_born_1960]

Maybe teachers should be held to higher standards, like the other degreed professionals you mention, when the teaching profession also has similar salaries and social prestige.
How many cab drivers get their license pulled?

[sooneron]

Maybe teachers should be held to higher standards, like the other degreed professionals you mention, when the teaching profession also has similar salaries and social prestige.

This is flawed thinking, imo. An employee at a restaurant can be fired for missing work or being late 3 times. A teacher would pretty much have to spray paint I hate ****ers on the school to get axed. Everyone should be held to the same standard, even those near the top. Although, they rarely are, as well.

The problem is, how do you figure out which teachers are not cutting the mustard? Most teachers will tell you that it's not really their job to teach anymore, they are preparing test takers, as standardized tests are the system's way of rating school /educator performance.

[StoopTroup]

The little kid in the ads this morning says we can handle it - no problem.

I'm glad he explained it so well...now I know what to do...

[mgsooner]

The company line from the 744 people is that only "wasteful spending" or "special interests" will be affected. If by "special interests" they mean massive budget cuts to every single state agency across the board I guess they're right.

[StoopTroup]

Also, the ****ty and/or absentee parents need to step up and not expect the schools to raise their children for them. The single strongest indicator of academic success is parental interest and involvement.

Well wouldn't that pie in the sky idea be nice.

Thing is...what will happen more than likely is it will put even more pressure on those of us who are already trying to help kids that are abandoned by their Parents. Kids are our future but unless you're gonna offer some cash incentive for the Parents to show up...I'm pretty sure they'll still be out running down what they think they need and the kids will continue to be a last thought. Once you've paid the Parents to show...they'll be off to spend the dough on themselves again.

Years of generation after generation of these folks expecting the School to not only teach their kids but also babysit them just isn't going to go away.

[Leroy Lizard]

Maybe teachers should be held to higher standards, like the other degreed professionals you mention, when the teaching profession also has similar salaries and social prestige.

Professionalism isn't based on salary; it's based on educational achievement, job responsibility, and attitudes/behavior that looks professional.

[Leroy Lizard]

This is flawed thinking, imo. An employee at a restaurant can be fired for missing work or being late 3 times. A teacher would pretty much have to spray paint I hate ****ers on the school to get axed. Everyone should be held to the same standard, even those near the top. Although, they rarely are, as well.

The problem is, how do you figure out which teachers are not cutting the mustard? Most teachers will tell you that it's not really their job to teach anymore, they are preparing test takers, as standardized tests are the system's way of rating school /educator performance.

That's a cop out. If you teach well, students will do well. Teaching to the test is a flawed strategy that true professionals would not employ.

[StoopTroup]

That's a cop out. If you teach well, students will do well. Teaching to the test is a flawed strategy that true professionals would not employ.

He did ask how do you find out which Teachers aren't cutting the mustard?

My thought is how do you keep some sort of personal vendetta agenda by whoever makes that decision from happening? What a freaking mess we have and all this is about is money.

[Leroy Lizard]

The company line from the 744 people is that only "wasteful spending" or "special interests" will be affected. If by "special interests" they mean massive budget cuts to every single state agency across the board I guess they're right.

I hate the term "special interests." What isn't a special interest? Teachers want SQ 744 passed, but aren't they a special interest? Aren't parents a special interest?

It's a term thrown all over the place that seems to have no meaning.

[Leroy Lizard]

He did ask how do you find out which Teachers aren't cutting the mustard?

My thought is how do you keep some sort of personal vendetta agenda by whoever makes that decision from happening? What a freaking mess we have and all this is about is money.

Easy. You employ personnel from outside the district to observe them teaching. And you base the observations on real teaching behaviors, not subjective abstractions.

There is another solution: Don't worry about the personal vendettas. Just like in any business, **** off the boss and you're going to be on the outs. In other words: If you're worried about being fired over a personal vendetta, don't do those things to create a personal vendetta.

It's not all about money, btw. That's another catch phrase that is thrown around.

[StoopTroup]

Easy. You employ personnel from outside the district to observe them teaching. And you base the observations on real teaching behaviors, not subjective abstractions.

There is another solution: Don't worry about the personal vendettas. Just like in any business, **** off the boss and you're going to be on the outs. In other words: If you're worried about being fired over a personal vendetta, don't do those things to create a personal vendetta.

It's not all about money, btw. That's another catch phrase that is thrown around.

What as a PTA Parent I don't agree? The Bitches we have now at one of our schools got the best Principle the School ever had demoted. Good bye BOSS.

[Leroy Lizard]

What as a PTA Parent I don't agree? The Bitches we have now at one of our schools got the best Principle the School ever had demoted. Good by BOSS.

Actually, my solution is your solution to that problem. With the power to carry out a "personal vendetta," this principal could have ousted those teaches and kept his job.

[StoopTroup]

Actually, my solution is your solution to that problem. With the power to carry out a "personal vendetta," this principal could have ousted those teaches and kept his job.

Leroid...they got rid of every male role model at the School. Principle and gym teacher...gone. I'm gonna tell you right now...Women who don't work run that School. It's a good school still but I heard stuff like Mr. **** was to nice...he didn't handle confrontation well. Thing is the guy got the infra-structure of the School fixed and before he could start to turn around the attitudes inside the school he was ostracized and demoted. This isn't something that is only going on at this school either...it's something the Board of Education feels works.

The kids having a decent Gym Coach or a decent Male role model as Principle? It's not PC enough. If the school had more men who taught there I wouldn't be as concerned...but I see the internal teaching structure being run completely by Women who say they feel uncomfortable having a man make policy. Their view...he just doesn't handle the situations well. Truth...he was on his way to getting rid of the trouble makers.

[StoopTroup]

744 won't fix squat.

[Leroy Lizard]

Leroid...they got rid of every male role model at the School. Principle and gym teacher...gone. I'm gonna tell you right now...Women who don't work run that School. It's a good school still but I heard stuff like Mr. **** was to nice...he didn't handle confrontation well. Thing is the guy got the infra-structure of the School fixed and before he could start to turn around the attitudes inside the school he was ostracized and demoted. This isn't something that is only going on at this school either...it's something the Board of Education feels works.

The kids having a decent Gym Coach or a decent Male role model as Principle? It's not PC enough. If the school had more men who taught there I wouldn't be as concerned...but I see the internal teaching structure being run completely by Women who say they feel uncomfortable having a man make policy. Their view...he just doesn't handle the situations well. Truth...he was on his way to getting rid of the trouble makers.

That sounds reasonable. I just don't see how it contradicts anything I said. Again, the principal was ousted because he couldn't get rid of teachers who aligned against him. So it would appear that my solution would have saved his job.

[StoopTroup]

That sounds reasonable. I just don't see how it contradicts anything I said. Again, the principal was ousted because he couldn't get rid of teachers who aligned against him. So it would appear that my solution would have saved his job.

It doesn't contradict. I think that's what you as a poster here expects to happen. I'm just saying most of this yes and no BS on 744 is about money and not actually fixing problems that make our schools very one sided in mind and leaves kids with people they can't relate to or even look up to as they learn and grow. You have to have more Men involved in these schools and I mean real men, Family Men. We don't have them because most of us wouldn't put up with 2 seconds of the BS that goes on in our Schools.

[Leroy Lizard]

It doesn't contradict. I think that's what you as a poster here expects to happen. I'm just saying most of this yes and no BS on 744 is about money and not actually fixing problems that make our schools very one sided in mind and leaves kids with people they can't relate to or even look up to as they learn and grow. You have to have more Men involved in these schools and I mean real men, Family Men. We don't have them because most of us wouldn't put up with 2 seconds of the BS that goes on in our Schools.

Okay, sorry for the misunderstanding.

[StoopTroup]

Okay, sorry for the misunderstanding.

I'm pretty upset about what transpired. Can you tell? :D

[mgsooner]

So it appears to me that we have had a grand total of one person state in this thread that they are voting yes on this. Anybody else? lol

[StoopTroup]

Not me.

[Pricetag]

The think I love most about 744 is that according to their own ads, it can be funded by the state legislators cutting their pay.


I'm quite certain that will happen. Probably at the same time Mary Fallin and Jari Askins french kiss on the steps of the Capitol.
Yeah, those ads are pretty pathetic. It's kind of like saying, "If we could just repeal the Theory of Relativity, we could travel to other galaxies at the speed of light and beyond." If all those governmental problems they cite suddenly ceased to exist, we wouldn't need something like 744 (assuming that they are correct and it would help education).

[StoopTroup]

Yeah, those ads are pretty pathetic. It's kind of like saying, "If we could just repeal the Theory of Relativity, we could travel to other galaxies at the speed of light and beyond." If all those governmental problems they cite suddenly ceased to exist, we wouldn't need something like 744 (assuming that they are correct and it would help education).

Yep. I'd have more respect for the "Yes" side if they just didn't use scare tactics that some faceless politician and special interest group had been the sole reason for this SQ. They only wanted to paint the picture all rosey. If they would have run ads that explained what would happen and how it was going to be very difficult on Oklahoma due to the amount of change it would affect...I might have been a bit more reasonable in consideration. Thing is...it insulted my intelligence and offered no answers and painted a fairytale.

[Leroy Lizard]

So it appears to me that we have had a grand total of one person state in this thread that they are voting yes on this. Anybody else? lol

Who would that be?


Yep. I'd have more respect for the "Yes" side if they just didn't use scare tactics that some faceless politician and special interest group had been the sole reason for this SQ. They only wanted to paint the picture all rosey. If they would have run ads that explained what would happen and how it was going to be very difficult on Oklahoma due to the amount of change it would affect...I might have been a bit more reasonable in consideration. Thing is...it insulted my intelligence and offered no answers and painted a fairytale.

They're trying to get people to vote yes, so I understand why they gloss over problems. I don't care for the irrational explanations, however, especially the idea that funding will come from a source that has yet to manifest. I want rational funding strategies, not prophecies.

[mgsooner]

@Leroy

"midtowner" posted early on in this thread and seemed to support the measure but he hasn't been back since.

[Pricetag]

To be fair, though, the "ZOMG, 100,000 convicts would be released if it passes!" stuff isn't exactly honest, either. It's not like cuts to pay for it would come from only one department.

[Sooner_Havok]

To be fair, though, the "ZOMG, 100,000 convicts would be released if it passes!" stuff isn't exactly honest, either. It's not like cuts to pay for it would come from only one department.

Maybe, but people are nuts if they think our wonderful state politicians would take a much needed pay cut to fund it.

[RFH Shakes]

http://beauforttribune.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/201010_blog_mccluskey111.jpg

I would say that this is a bad investment.

I'd like to see administrators salaries percentage changes overlayed on to this.

[StoopTroup]

especially the idea that funding will come from a source that has yet to manifest. I want rational funding strategies, not prophecies.
IMO it's the same kind of speculation that was used in trying to pour millions into the Arkansas River in Tulsa at one time.

[Cornfed]

It's already been stated here, but it is right . Throwing money at a problem will not fix it, and expecting politicians to make cuts to allow for this in the first place is laughable.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

Question Leroy, if Oklahoma needs more superintendents because of rural areas, how do we have Twice as many school administrators at the whole state of Texas?

[Leroy Lizard]

Question Leroy, if Oklahoma needs more superintendents because of rural areas, how do we have Twice as many school administrators at the whole state of Texas?

Link?

(That sounds impossible. Texas has roughly 1,200 school districts, which is probably about twice as many as Oklahoma. And the school districts in Dallas, Houston, San Antonio and Austin would have huge numbers of administrators.)

EDIT: I wasn't far off, with Texas having 1150 school districts and Oklahoma having 535.

[Cornfed]

Oklahoma School District Statistics
Oklahoma School Districts: 603
Total Students Pre Kindergarten - 12 Grade: 626,160
Total Males: 322,392
Total Females: 303,767
American Indian Students: 115,771
Asian/Pacific Islanders : 9,396
African Americans: 68,315
Hispanic: 47,828
White: 384,849
Total Staff: 71,313
Fulltime Teachers: 39,251
Ungraded Teachers: 4,267
Oklahoma Pre Kindergarten Teachers: 865
Oklahoma Kindergarten Teachers: 1,636
Oklahoma Elementary Teachers: 15,768
Oklahoma Secondary Teachers: 16,717
Elementary Guidance Counselors: 522
Secondary Guidance Counselors: 973
Total Guidance Counselors: 1,494
LEA Administrators: 710
School Administrators: 1,932
LEA Admin Support Staff: 1,664
School Admin Support Staff: 3,485
Student Support Services Staff: 2,293
Other Support Staff: 12,466
Library Media Support Staff: 722
Librarians Media Specialists: 997

[Leroy Lizard]

Oklahoma School District Statistics
Oklahoma School Districts: 603
LEA Administrators: 710
School Administrators: 1,932

That sounds about right. You have just a little more than 1 LEA administrator per district and about three administrators per district.

There is no way Texas has fewer.

[Big 8]

It never ceases to amaze me how the power/money elite can convince so many of the commoners to support what is best for them (the elite) with a few wedge issues and a little propaganda. Americans, and Oklahomans in particular, are mostly ignorant sheep.

[picasso]

It never ceases to amaze me how the power/money elite can convince so many of the commoners to support what is best for them (the elite) with a few wedge issues and a little propaganda. Americans, and Oklahomans in particular, are mostly ignorant sheep.

Cut and past some more!

SQ 744 will devastate state's economy

I encourage all Oklahomans who care about the future of our state and protecting our economic well-being to vote no on State Question 744.
Vote no


By DON WALKER
Published: 10/27/2010 2:20 AM
Last Modified: 10/27/2010 4:35 AM

Debate rages over Washington's economic policies and the state of our national economy. But on Tuesday, Oklahomans will vote on State Question 744, which may have a more devastating impact on our state's economy than anything Washington can cook up.


Put on the ballot through the initiative petition process by the Oklahoma Education Association and the National Education Association, SQ 744 would require the Oklahoma Legislature to fund common education minimally at the six-state regional average. The level of funding would be based on per-pupil expenditures.

By the OEA's own estimate, when fully implemented, SQ 744 will cost a minimum of $938 million dollars a year.

The Oklahoma Policy Institute, a widely respected, nonpartisan think tank, estimated the three-year phase-in cost at $1.7 billion.

Funding education at the regional average makes for a terrific political sound bite, but the devil is in the details.

SQ 744 does not have an identified funding mechanism to pay for the cost of the spending increase. Therefore, it stands to reason that lawmakers will have to do one of two things should it pass - cut expenditures in other state government services or raise taxes to satisfy the cost.

Oklahoma House budget Chairman Ken Miller, R-Edmond, held an interim study last year on what options lawmakers would have to pay for SQ 744 should it pass. From the study results, full funding of SQ 744 without raising taxes would require all non-common education portions of the
state budget to take a cut of about 20 percent.

Of course, some state services would ultimately be cut more than others, but according to testimony given at the interim study, if the cuts were equal and across the board, they could result in all of the following:

* 125 state troopers laid-off;

* Eight or 9 prisons closed and 8,400 criminals released;

* Dramatic tuition hikes and the likely elimination of Oklahoma's Promise college scholarship funding;

* Severe cuts to such human services as foster care;

* $192 million eliminated from the road and bridge program in first year alone;

* $336 million cut from 8-year road and bridge plan, if no federal match is lost;

* Loss of up to $400 million a year from federal matching funds related to health care alone.

The One Oklahoma Coalition, a broad-based and politically diverse group formed to oppose SQ 744, estimates that if the Legislature opted to increase taxes instead, it would cost about $1,200 for each family of four to pay for the spending mandate.

The impact to rural Oklahoma may prove even more devastating as funds allocated to help rural Oklahoma create jobs and increase economic development likely would be eliminated.

All of these reasons make the case to vote no, but it also simply comes down to this: SQ 744 has no funding plan and requires no education reform.

I encourage all Oklahomans who care about the future of our state and protecting our economic well-being to vote no on State Question 744.

Don Walker is president of Arvest Bank and chairman of the Tulsa Metro Chamber's board of directors.

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectid=65&articleid=20101027_65_A17_CUTLIN259919

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectid=65&articleid=20101027_65_A17_CUTLIN259919

[Big 8]

Cut and past some more!

SQ 744 will devastate state's economy

I encourage all Oklahomans who care about the future of our state and protecting our economic well-being to vote no on State Question 744.
Vote no


By DON WALKER
Published: 10/27/2010 2:20 AM
Last Modified: 10/27/2010 4:35 AM

Debate rages over Washington's economic policies and the state of our national economy. But on Tuesday, Oklahomans will vote on State Question 744, which may have a more devastating impact on our state's economy than anything Washington can cook up.


Put on the ballot through the initiative petition process by the Oklahoma Education Association and the National Education Association, SQ 744 would require the Oklahoma Legislature to fund common education minimally at the six-state regional average. The level of funding would be based on per-pupil expenditures.

By the OEA's own estimate, when fully implemented, SQ 744 will cost a minimum of $938 million dollars a year.

The Oklahoma Policy Institute, a widely respected, nonpartisan think tank, estimated the three-year phase-in cost at $1.7 billion.

Funding education at the regional average makes for a terrific political sound bite, but the devil is in the details.

SQ 744 does not have an identified funding mechanism to pay for the cost of the spending increase. Therefore, it stands to reason that lawmakers will have to do one of two things should it pass - cut expenditures in other state government services or raise taxes to satisfy the cost.

Oklahoma House budget Chairman Ken Miller, R-Edmond, held an interim study last year on what options lawmakers would have to pay for SQ 744 should it pass. From the study results, full funding of SQ 744 without raising taxes would require all non-common education portions of the
state budget to take a cut of about 20 percent.

Of course, some state services would ultimately be cut more than others, but according to testimony given at the interim study, if the cuts were equal and across the board, they could result in all of the following:

* 125 state troopers laid-off;

* Eight or 9 prisons closed and 8,400 criminals released;

* Dramatic tuition hikes and the likely elimination of Oklahoma's Promise college scholarship funding;

* Severe cuts to such human services as foster care;

* $192 million eliminated from the road and bridge program in first year alone;

* $336 million cut from 8-year road and bridge plan, if no federal match is lost;

* Loss of up to $400 million a year from federal matching funds related to health care alone.

The One Oklahoma Coalition, a broad-based and politically diverse group formed to oppose SQ 744, estimates that if the Legislature opted to increase taxes instead, it would cost about $1,200 for each family of four to pay for the spending mandate.

The impact to rural Oklahoma may prove even more devastating as funds allocated to help rural Oklahoma create jobs and increase economic development likely would be eliminated.

All of these reasons make the case to vote no, but it also simply comes down to this: SQ 744 has no funding plan and requires no education reform.

I encourage all Oklahomans who care about the future of our state and protecting our economic well-being to vote no on State Question 744.

Don Walker is president of Arvest Bank and chairman of the Tulsa Metro Chamber's board of directors.

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectid=65&articleid=20101027_65_A17_CUTLIN259919

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectid=65&articleid=20101027_65_A17_CUTLIN259919

At least I cut and paste my own words. Just keep living in your fantasy world and parroting what the big boys want you to, and pretend you are thinking for yourself. For a self-styled artist you don't appear to have much in the way open-mindedness or creative thinking. Do you use a stencil for your paintings? Or paint by numbers?

[saucysoonergal]

People around here call me a liberal, which is wrong by the way, I hate everybody, but I am against this measure. How do we fund it? It takes a super-majority to raise taxes. That isn't going to happen. The Education lobby says it can be funded by cutting tax breaks, there goes our growing economy. I guess that just leaves cutting all other state services.

I will be voting no.

[picasso]

At least I cut and paste my own words. Just keep living in your fantasy world and parroting what the big boys want you to, and pretend you are thinking for yourself. For a self-styled artist you don't appear to have much in the way open-mindedness or creative thinking. Do you use a stencil for your paintings? Or paint by numbers?

Wow, a conservative doesn't think for himself.

What fantasy world am I living in again? Checks and balances and hard work is what makes this world work.
Not living off the government teet.

Go read some history Big 8. And please cut and paste the true definition of a progressive.

[mgsooner]

"If State Question 744 passes, it will absolutely devastate the budgets of all other critical areas in state government, and we just simply cannot allow that to happen."

Gov. Brad Henry

This coming from Mr. Education Funding himself. If this doesn't tell you something is very wrong with this measure, nothing will.

[StoopTroup]

At least I cut and paste my own words. Just keep living in your fantasy world and parroting what the big boys want you to, and pretend you are thinking for yourself. For a self-styled artist you don't appear to have much in the way open-mindedness or creative thinking. Do you use a stencil for your paintings? Or paint by numbers?

No matter whether Pic is cutting or pasting many of those things should be answered by the yes folks if they want my vote.

Just this in his cut and paste has me turning my head....


* Severe cuts to such human services as foster care;

Reason? If this includes After School care for Kids it directly affects me and many others with School age Kids. Yeah I could have put my Kids in a Private School and paid for private after School care but We decided Public Schools were OK. We as Parents are involved and have tried to be an example instead of Parents that were part of the problem. Lots of Families where we are are really hard pressed as two income and One Income/ one Parent Families have serious issues about the structure of School start times and depend on these after-school programs. My Wife and I pay into them and are not a part of the Human Services issues that others may depend on but we still would rather know our kids are still at the School instead of being transferred to somewhere else. The program we have is a decent program and they push to make sure kids do homework before breaking off to less academic activity.

Our Son is 8 and in Elementary School and the Start Time is around 8am and the Daughter is 12 and in Jr. High. The Schools are less than a 1/2 mile apart but their starting times are an hour or more apart. Pretty tough on us depending on our work schedules. We've sacrificed in many ways over the years and it constantly changes it seems from year to year. Why? I have no idea. Some of it was said to be a Busing problem that helped the School system keep their costs low. They'll get a No vote from me until they start treating Parents and kids decently. I can always sacrifice and stick the kids into a private school but we as Taxpayers pay into this system and we will continue to demand the School Boards continue to run our Schools better.

[okie52]

Surprised to see the Henry's campaigning against 744. I don't think 744 has much of a shot but I haven't seen any polls about it.

[StoopTroup]

Folks seem to vote yes in our State when they just say it's good for Schools....that's why the Yes are doing the ads the way they are.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Its all for the chil'ren...

[Leroy Lizard]

Its all for the chil'ren...

Whichever side mentions "the children" first is usually on the wrong side.

[mgsooner]

It appears they have resorted to desperate scumbaggery...


Judge issues warning to Oklahoma schools about SQ 744 flier

A judge Friday warned superintendents at Oklahoma public school districts that they could be in violation of state law if they passed out fliers advocating State Question 744 to students.

The judge was told by attorneys a violation could be considered a misdemeanor.

The judge said she believes fliers already passed out in the Yukon School District advocate passage of the state question. She said that while the flier does not say, "vote yes," "it says everything short of that."

The judge disagreed with attorneys for a teachers union, the Oklahoma Education Association. They argued the fliers were on the right side of a fine line in the law. Attorneys argued schools have a right to distribute such informational material just like they do about bond issues

The judge refused a legal request from a student's mother to restrain the Yukon schools superintendent from distributing any more fliers. The judge said she could not act because the Yukon School District is in another county and because a school attorney said no more will be sent out.

The OEA attorneys argued the student's mother should have taken up her complaint with the state Ethics Commission, not a judge.

The judge's warning has no legal effect. The judge suggested state schools Superintendent Sandy Garrett pass along her warning but the judge said she is not instructing Garrett to do anything. The judge did note that news reporters were present for a hearing Friday so her warning would get attention.

The parent, Julia Seay, told The Oklahoman Friday she was outraged when her daughter, Kristen Seay, 17, a senior, brought home the flier that was handed out in a class.

"It made me furious because I'm against it. I don't want my child being used as a campaign tool. I don't want teachers using their time to campaign for something I am against. That's not my child's education," Seay, 53, said.

If approved Tuesday, the controversial state question would mandate that Oklahoma spend the same amount per-student on public education as the regional average spent per-student.

Oklahoma ranks 49th in the nation on what it spends per-student in prekindergarten through 12th grade. The state would be required to spend at least $830 million more a year on education to reach the regional average. Critics say the measure would take money away from other state agencies, crippling their operations.

State law

Public school employees are covered by laws regarding campaigns for state issues because their districts get state funding.

Under the law, content-neutral information about state questions can be provided by state entities or state employees. However, in no way can a state employee, on state time, or using state resources, advocate for or against a state question.

The Yukon School Board president, David Moore, said one parent called him about the distributed materials. He said other board members received maybe 10 calls.

"What happened is Bill Denton, our superintendent, had some communication, but the board had not looked at it. Some of those got out. I think about 30 of those got out to a teacher and were passed out to the people," Moore said.

"As soon as the board got some calls about it, we called the superintendent and he put a stop to it and no more went out.

"We just didn't feel it was the proper way to communicate on this issue, so we put a stop to it," Moore said.

He said he had no idea who gave the materials to the superintendent. Denton could not be reached for comment.

Garrett has not taken a public position on the state question, and her attorney told the judge Friday that Garrett had nothing to do with the fliers.

Read more: http://www.newsok.com/judge-issues-warning-to-oklahoma-schools-about-sq-744-flier/article/3509645#ixzz13qx4wEdz

[Leroy Lizard]

The parent, Julia Seay, told The Oklahoman Friday she was outraged when her daughter, Kristen Seay, 17, a senior, brought home the flier that was handed out in a class.

"It made me furious because I'm against it. I don't want my child being used as a campaign tool. I don't want teachers using their time to campaign for something I am against. That's not my child's education," Seay, 53, said.

As I said before, teachers need to learn the difference between teaching and indoctrinating. Passing out biased campaign literature to students is a no-no.


Garrett has not taken a public position on the state question, and her attorney told the judge Friday that Garrett had nothing to do with the fliers.

They can't even get the Superintendent to endorse it? Wow.

[mgsooner]

17 Reasons to reject SQ 744: http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectid=261&articleid=20101031_261_G1_Sevent79026

[mgsooner]

Presidents: SQ 744 will hurt universities

by: BARBARA HOBEROCK World Capitol Bureau
Saturday, October 30, 2010
10/30/2010 7:11:42 AM

OKLAHOMA CITY - The presidents of the state's two largest universities on Friday said passage of a common education funding measure could result in faculty layoffs, tuition increases and course reductions.

Gov. Brad Henry was joined by University of Oklahoma President David Boren and Oklahoma State University President Burns Hargis at a Capitol press conference to discuss the impact that State Question 744 would have on their schools.

Henry is the honorary chairman of the One Oklahoma Coalition, which was formed to oppose the measure that would require per-pupil spending on common education to increase to the regional average.

It is one of 11 state questions on Tuesday's ballot.

"Higher education is absolutely critical to our state," Henry said.

Boren said he and Hargis were not telling voters how to vote but were present to discuss the impact on OU and OSU should the measure pass.

Paying for the requirements of SQ 744 would require reducing higher education funding by $230 million over three years, Boren said.

On OU's Norman campus, it would require an $11 million annual cut for three years, he said.

That would decimate academic programs, require layoffs and course cancellations, and could result in tuition increases, Boren said.

Hargis said the key to the state's future is producing more college graduates, and cutting higher education would result in fewer of those.

Walton Robinson, communications director for Yes on 744, said the presidents violated the law by using state resources to attempt to defeat the measure.

He said his organization will contact the state Ethics Commission to explore what measures can be taken to address the situation.

Robinson also called the presidents' comments scare tactics.

But Boren said he was obligated to inform people of the impact the measure's passage would have on higher education.

"It is never a violation of the law to give information," Boren said. "No one advocates that we keep people in the dark."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barbara Hoberock (405) 528-2465
[email protected]