Understanding SQ 744

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Help me to understand.

Both sides have valid points. But I'm having trouble with making the logical connection that more funding somehow increases performance both of teachers and the children under their charge. Is it truly a product of the system that our best and brightest are leaving in droves to Texas? Or is it a product of the system that in an effort to promote success for all, the bar of performance has been significantly lowered? Or has that bar been lowered for no reason other than insufficient funding in the classroom?

Or does it simply boil down to the parents and regardless of how much money is thrown at the problem, it will never find resolution without a larger commitment from home?

[XingTheRubicon]

Vote no and live in a good school district.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

I supposedly do, but it seems like every other year my daughter catches a turd rocket that could launch the space shuttle.

[Ton Loc]

Help me to understand.
Or does it simply boil down to the parents and regardless of how much money is thrown at the problem, it will never find resolution without a larger commitment from home?

Winner!!!

For an easy example, the PTA at my kid's elementry school is 7 people. 5 mothers and 2 grandmothers. Of those 7 people, I'm guessing 2 made it through High School.

Of course, now we have made the total up to 9. We're fighting an uphill battle and throwing more money at the problem (from where?!) isn't going to solve it.

[Okla-homey]

Throwing money at public education without breaking the death grip of the teacher's unions, eliminating the bloated overhead in the form of too many $100K a year adminstrators and cutting the absurd number of school districts is money wasted.

[GKeeper316]

the state dpt of education contracted a study a few years ago that said the number one reason education spending is so ridiculous in this state is because there are more than twice as many school districts than we actually need, and most should be eliminated. this study cost the state several million dollars, and what did they do? ignored all of it. the teachers union was in favor of eliminating all these districts, the politicians buried it.

it aint always the teacher's union at fault.

[olevetonahill]

Ima axe this again
"Wheres the ****ing money that was gonna go to the schools , when we passed the lottery?

[tommieharris91]

Ima axe this again
"Wheres the ****ing money that was gonna go to the schools , when we passed the lottery?

Aint none.

[olevetonahill]

Aint none.

Oh theres Money, It just aint going to the Schools

Isn't that the Biggest selling point that they used to get the lotto passed?
My self I dont play the Lotto , but I dont have a prob with the Idjits that do :P

[Leroy Lizard]

Ima axe this again
"Wheres the ****ing money that was gonna go to the schools , when we passed the lottery?

You fell for it too? :D

[olevetonahill]

You fell for it too? :D

No, Cause Idint GAS. Im just sayin Wheres the Money ?:rolleyes:

[Leroy Lizard]

Winner!!!

For an easy example, the PTA at my kid's elementry school is 7 people. 5 mothers and 2 grandmothers. Of those 7 people, I'm guessing 2 made it through High School.

Of course, now we have made the total up to 9. We're fighting an uphill battle and throwing more money at the problem (from where?!) isn't going to solve it.

Once you start blaming the parents, it's over.

You cannot improve education by saying "Well, we have to wait until parents completely change their character before we can begin working on the problem."

Oklahoma, like just about all states, needs to tune its educational system, regardless of the parenting. Otherwise, it's just an excuse to fail.

[Soonerus]

Throwing money at public education without breaking the death grip of the teacher's unions, eliminating the bloated overhead in the form of too many $100K a year adminstrators and cutting the absurd number of school districts is money wasted.

My thoughts exactly...

[olevetonahill]

Once you start blaming the parents, it's over.

You cannot improve education by saying "Well, we have to wait until parents completely change their character before we can begin working on the problem."

Oklahoma, like just about all states, needs to tune its educational system, regardless of the parenting. Otherwise, it's just an excuse to fail.

Limptard. Where he say What I bolded? He said the ****in Parents need to step up. They wont But they Need to.

[Ton Loc]

Here's a question. Has the school system and educational structure changed that much in the last 30-40 years? Because I seriously doubt it. So what has changed the most.

I'm starting with the parents as number 1.

[XingTheRubicon]

Here's a question. Has the school system and educational structure changed that much in the last 30-40 years? Because I seriously doubt it. So what has changed the most.

I'm starting with the parents as number 1.

Exactly, my kids will be fine because I will see to that. I could GAF about everyone else's.

[Okla-homey]

Exactly, my kids will be fine because I will see to that. I could GAF about everyone else's.

Me? K through 12 of private school for my kid was the best money I ever spent.

[SicEmBaylor]

Throwing money at public education without breaking the death grip of the teacher's unions, eliminating the bloated overhead in the form of too many $100K a year adminstrators and cutting the absurd number of school districts is money wasted.

One of the rare times we're in full agreement.

I would only add that there needs to be a better way of evaluating teachers and the hiring/firing process needs to be streamlined. Both of which are more likely if the unions are dealt with.

I wouldn't mind paying good teachers more money if all of the criteria Homey listed were met.

[Leroy Lizard]

Limptard. Where he say What I bolded? He said the ****in Parents need to step up. They wont But they Need to.

Actually I should have quoted Tulsa_Fireman. To wit:


Or does it simply boil down to the parents and regardless of how much money is thrown at the problem, it will never find resolution without a larger commitment from home?

He's right, but also I know many educators who lean on such sentiment as an excuse to not even try.

A policeman has to fight crime as best he can, even though so many elements in our society (e.g., TV) work against him.

[SicEmBaylor]

Here's a question. Has the school system and educational structure changed that much in the last 30-40 years? Because I seriously doubt it. So what has changed the most.

I'm starting with the parents as number 1.

I think parents are often a problem, but I don't agree with the rest of your statement. I don't know what public education was like 30-40 years ago, but I know what it was like from 10 years ago to today via friends of mine who have become teachers.

I'll tell you this, the crap my friends deal with in their schools would never ever have been tolerated even when I was in school. One of my friends can barely communicate with several members of her class because they don't speak a word of English, they routinely threaten her life, they're disrespectful in ways that you can barely begin to imagine, and she receives very little support from her school administrators. I really believe that schools are becoming much tougher places to learn because parents give less of a ****, teachers aren't allowed to discipline their students like they should be, and school administrators are unmotivated bureaucrats sometimes pulling in a 6-figure salary with little interest in truly making a different.

Now, in the interest of disclosure, my friend teaches in an inner-city school while I went to a small rural school district with parents that generally expected their children to behave and teachers who expected us to be respectful.

[OU_Sooners75]

Actually I should have quoted Tulsa_Fireman. To wit:



He's right, but also I know many educators who lean on such sentiment as an excuse to not even try.

A policeman has to fight crime as best he can, even though so many elements in our society (e.g., TV) work against him.
I'm sorry, but tv doesn't add to violent behavior or crime. Stupidity or a sense of entitlement causes an increase in crime.

What is the ratio of crimals that have degrees to no high school diplomas?

[OU_Sooners75]

Liztard I'm going to go out on a limb and assume u think guns kill people. No guns don't kill people, they are just tools to make it easier. People kill people.

[GottaHavePride]

Ima axe this again
"Wheres the ****ing money that was gonna go to the schools , when we passed the lottery?

This is easy. It's a shell game.

See, you say "oh, all the lottery money will go to the schools! Great!"

Then another politician says "Well, we can expect X amount of money from the lottery each year to go toward the schools, so let's cut back the amount of other tax money we give the schools by X amount."

So the schools get exactly the same as what they got before, and the politicians have all that extra money to overpay their cronies for pet projects.

[Leroy Lizard]

I really believe that schools are becoming much tougher places to learn because parents give less of a ****, teachers aren't allowed to discipline their students like they should be...

Boo hoo hoo. Teachers are usually one of the most liberal groups in a community. They oppose the "old ways" of doing things such as hard-nosed discipline, but then complain when students show them no respect.

For example, teachers are all into providing high school students full freedom of expression, but then get pissed when their students use that freedom to diss them in class.

Hey, freedom of expression, dude! You wanted them to have it. Now that little Bobby has a t-shirt with a swastika on it, what are you going to do about it? Tell him to take it off?

[Leroy Lizard]

I'm sorry, but tv doesn't add to violent behavior or crime. Stupidity or a sense of entitlement causes an increase in crime.

What is the ratio of crimals that have degrees to no high school diplomas?

TV teaches kids a lot of values. Ultimately, these values surface in very unpleasant ways. TV is bad, which is why I didn't allow my kids to watch much of it.


Liztard I'm going to go out on a limb and assume u think guns kill people. No guns don't kill people, they are just tools to make it easier. People kill people.

I'm a lifetime member of the NRA. I certainly agree with you. I'm not sure what I said that would imply the opposite.

[picasso]

I like the comparison to other states the yes folks have on their ads.

The cost of living is higher in other states.

No?

[GKeeper316]

Boo hoo hoo. Teachers are usually one of the most liberal groups in a community. They oppose the "old ways" of doing things such as hard-nosed discipline, but then complain when students show them no respect.

For example, teachers are all into providing high school students full freedom of expression, but then get pissed when their students use that freedom to diss them in class.

Hey, freedom of expression, dude! You wanted them to have it. Now that little Bobby has a t-shirt with a swastika on it, what are you going to do about it? Tell him to take it off?

no.

according to my father (school teacher/former fighter pilot/former attorney), the biggest problem in schools these days is what the well intended no child left behind has done and parents that dont care. teachers have to waste so much time and effort trying to teach kids that either dont want to learn (thugs who think they'll be a rapper or pro athlete) or kids that arent capable of learning (developmental/learning disabilities). plus the huge lack of discipline and parental apathy. when they have open houses and parent teacher conferences, the parents he doesnt really need to see (whose kids are doing fine) are the only ones that show up. he sends parents email after email and phone message after phone message and the only time he hears back is AFTER the kid has failed his class.

do not blame the teachers. thats like blaming soldiers for starting wars.

[Leroy Lizard]

no.

according to my father (school teacher/former fighter pilot/former attorney), the biggest problem in schools these days is what the well intended no child left behind has done and parents that dont care. teachers have to waste so much time and effort trying to teach kids that either dont want to learn (thugs who think they'll be a rapper or pro athlete) or kids that arent capable of learning (developmental/learning disabilities). plus the huge lack of discipline and parental apathy. when they have open houses and parent teacher conferences, the parents he doesnt really need to see (whose kids are doing fine) are the only ones that show up. he sends parents email after email and phone message after phone message and the only time he hears back is AFTER the kid has failed his class.

do not blame the teachers. thats like blaming soldiers for starting wars.

There is plenty of blame to spread around. I don't blame the teachers for everything, but I do point out that their Haight-Ashbury ideals have led to their lack of authority in dealing with problem children.

I don't think NCLB had much to do with our current problems. It's just a scapegoat.




do not blame the teachers. thats like blaming soldiers for starting wars.

You don't blame soldiers for starting wars. But you do blame them for struggling if they lobbied to have their own firepower limited.

[SOONER44EVER]

Vote NO. Here is why.
1. Nobody knows where the extra money is coming from.
2. Nobody knows whether it will actually help the kids.....or the overpaid administrators.
3. Throwing money at a problem rarely solves it.
Easy vote.

[GKeeper316]

I don't think NCLB had much to do with our current problems. It's just a scapegoat.

you'd be wrong.

[Ton Loc]

I think parents are often a problem, but I don't agree with the rest of your statement. I don't know what public education was like 30-40 years ago, but I know what it was like from 10 years ago to today via friends of mine who have become teachers.

I'll tell you this, the crap my friends deal with in their schools would never ever have been tolerated even when I was in school. One of my friends can barely communicate with several members of her class because they don't speak a word of English, they routinely threaten her life, they're disrespectful in ways that you can barely begin to imagine, and she receives very little support from her school administrators. I really believe that schools are becoming much tougher places to learn because parents give less of a ****, teachers aren't allowed to discipline their students like they should be, and school administrators are unmotivated bureaucrats sometimes pulling in a 6-figure salary with little interest in truly making a different.

Now, in the interest of disclosure, my friend teaches in an inner-city school while I went to a small rural school district with parents that generally expected their children to behave and teachers who expected us to be respectful.

Sounds like you do agree with me. Parents with too many kids and not enough give a crap are #1. Then add in too many districts. Then move on to politicians who only and always have thought that money is the answer to everything. And work yourself right down the line of good ideas poorly executed (NCLB)...

and it goes on and on. Please believe parents are first and that's where they should stay.

[btk108]

The wife works for a regional university here in OK. The university is telling the staff and faculty to vote a resounding NO to this question. Says it could put them and the education system in dire straights financially. I didn't ask the reasoning behind it, but their President is a former state legislator I've known for years. Good man, smart man, well respected individual. I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume he knows what he's talking about. ;)

[allanace16]

The wife works for a regional university here in OK. The university is telling the staff and faculty to vote a resounding NO to this question. Says it could put them and the education system in dire straights financially. I didn't ask the reasoning behind it, but their President is a former state legislator I've known for years. Good man, smart man, well respected individual. I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume he knows what he's talking about. ;)

I think the thought process is that in order to balance the budget with this locked in amount that has to be paid on the K-12 level, the state will have to cut funding on the higher ed side, requiring all the public universities to substantially jack up tuition across the board, which may hurt OU and OSU, but would probably be crippling to the rest of the state's public universities.

Ultimately the idea of this legislation is good, but the execution is flawed. Oklahomans should be determining the amount of money that's being spent on education. Let's not be lazy and outsource it to the surrounding states. I'm voting no.

[StoopTroup]

They don't need any money. There is plenty to fix what's wrong.

If we do need any money it needs to be in the form of a tax on folks who have enough dough to send their kids to a private school instead of a public school. I think something in the order of say....

Amount Parents spend on a Private Tuition per child = $12,000.00 per anum

New tax levied should be $36,000.00 per child per anum

The amount of the $36,000.00 can be paid equally by the Private School via donations from Alumni or bake sales....whatever they need to do to raise the dough or the entire $36,000.00 can be paid by the Student's Parents. It doesn't matter who pays for it really....even if a Major Corporation wants to pay it....it's fine.

Payment of this tax does not allow for any benefits to be received by the Privately Schooled Children. It is simply a tax to help our Great Nation continue to build a better Public School curriculum for the down trodden and normal people who believe in being an example for change instead of giving up on the current system and sending their kids to a School where they can be raised to be Corporate Sociopaths that feel they are better than everyone else because Mommy and Daddy were able to send them to a School where they can be raised by a Nanny who has sterilized herself after giving up her 1st born for adoption.

Also....Home Schoolers....Once you've raised your kids the way you want and they are now able to move into society and get a job....your and your Spouse are not due any Government assistance in your old age. Your Children should be smart enough to make a good enough living to take care of you.

Once my plan is in place....I think you'll see how there will be enough money to make High School Football Stadiums in Oklahoma look like NFL Venues compared to DKR Stadium in austin.

[StoopTroup]

Oh and....

I'm voting no. :D

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Once my plan is in place....I think you'll see how there will be enough money to make High School Football Stadiums in Oklahoma look like NFL Venues compared to DKR Stadium in austin.

Aren't they already doing this at Union? :P

[StoopTroup]

Asbury United is funneling greenbacks through a system of underground tunnels that reach across Mingo Rd to the Coaches Office.

[Condescending Sooner]

This is easy. It's a shell game.

See, you say "oh, all the lottery money will go to the schools! Great!"

Then another politician says "Well, we can expect X amount of money from the lottery each year to go toward the schools, so let's cut back the amount of other tax money we give the schools by X amount."

So the schools get exactly the same as what they got before, and the politicians have all that extra money to overpay their cronies for pet projects.

This is totally wrong, and I'm sick of hearing it. People spew it out and have no idea what they are talking about. By law the state cannot reduce any funding to education to offset funds received from the lottery. It was written into the lottery law, and is very specific.

The schools have gotten millions from the lottery; actually the Dept. of Education got millions, not sure how much of it was actually given to the schools. Given their spending history, I would bet most of it was spent by the administrators.

[StoopTroup]

People spew it out and have no idea what they are talking about.

Except for me. If you ever find yourself kinda of locked up and the answer you're looking for just doesn't seem to fall before you....just PM me. I'm here for you. :D


Condescending bastage. :D ;)

[Okla-homey]

I would favor a bill that required the schol districts to bus kids to private schools if the district busses kids to public schools. We had that in Ohio and it was niiiice.

After all, folks paying property taxes with no kids in public school equals a freebie for the public schools. Folks oughtta get some return on their tax investment -- like a free ride for their kids to the school of their choice.

It's prolly RACIST not to provide free transportation to private schools since so many people of color can't afford transportation.

[Leroy Lizard]

you'd be wrong.

No, I don't think I am.

[Leroy Lizard]

The wife works for a regional university here in OK. The university is telling the staff and faculty to vote a resounding NO to this question.

Which means that it's probably a good idea to vote "yes." ;)

[Leroy Lizard]

They don't need any money. There is plenty to fix what's wrong.

If we do need any money it needs to be in the form of a tax on folks who have enough dough to send their kids to a private school instead of a public school. I think something in the order of say....

Amount Parents spend on a Private Tuition per child = $12,000.00 per anum

New tax levied should be $36,000.00 per child per anum

:eek:

Question: Were you on heroin when you dreamed up this idea?