View Full Version : So much for civil liberties if you're a state employee
landrun
9/15/2010, 09:46 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/09/14/2010-09-14_koran_burner_derek_fenton_fired_from_his_job_at _nj_transit.html
You work for the state for 11 years and get fired for burning a Koran?
I have a sincere questions for those of you on the left? Do you think that is just? Or is it a violation of his civil liberties? Or what?
How is anyone not angered by this?
Frozen Sooner
9/15/2010, 09:59 AM
Please note the NYCLU has weighed in on this guy's side. They usually get called out for being leftists.
Gandalf_The_Grey
9/15/2010, 10:19 AM
I don't see how endangering your fellow employees because you are retard entitles you to keep your job. You have a right to say and do what you want but there is consequences for your actions. If someone got killed while he was working, people would be outraged that he wasn't fired.
I read the article. How exactly did he endanger his fellow employees?
Gandalf_The_Grey
9/15/2010, 10:30 AM
Umm, let's see he burns the Koran...that might **** someone off. That someone might try to shoot him or blow his *** up. If he is at work, you can see how that might endanger his fellow and employees and other people.
OUMallen
9/15/2010, 11:29 AM
Probably violation of his First Amendment rights, IMO. I'd like to see what part of their ethics code they claim he violated in his off-time.
Veritas
9/15/2010, 11:34 AM
Please note the NYCLU has weighed in on this guy's side. They usually get called out for being leftists.
Religious folks love to bag on the ACLU but they play it pretty straight. They don't really have a leftish agenda, they sorta just have an atheist agenda. And if you were going to do a Venn diagram, the intersection of interests where would be +50%.
landrun
9/15/2010, 11:40 AM
Veritas / Frozen, I'll give the ACLU their due if they take up this guys case. I'm willing to bet they refuse to if asked and won't volunteer.
Gandalf, using your obscene logic, you could fire any Jew working for the state because a Muslim might get mad and attempt to kill them for being Jewish. That logic has no end and you could justify terminating anyone for anything. Think about it.
I honestly don't know about whether or not his rights were violated. Hiring/Firing based on speech seems to me to be a fairly large gray area. Would it be a violation of his rights if he were fired for burning a bible? Or a flag? IMO, in the eyes of the law, those should all be identical situations.
landrun
9/15/2010, 11:44 AM
I honestly don't know about whether or not his rights were violated. Hiring/Firing based on speech seems to me to be a fairly large gray area. Would it be a violation of his rights if he were fired for burning a bible? Or a flag? IMO, in the eyes of the law, those should all be identical situations.
Exactly. Fire someone for burning a Bible or a flag and see how much money you lose in a court of law of how soon you end up having charges pressed against your for violating someone's civil rights.
soonerscuba
9/15/2010, 11:45 AM
Veritas / Frozen, I'll give the ACLU their due if they take up this guys case.But you will continue to ignore the thousands of times they have helped Christians otherwise, awesome.
The ACLU might be the most misunderstood organization in this entire country.
olevetonahill
9/15/2010, 11:47 AM
I dont always agree with what the ACLU does, But they are usually in the right.
sooner_born_1960
9/15/2010, 11:49 AM
Gandolf, if that's really your name, that is probably the weakest argument I've ever heard. If I and my neighbor get in a tiff, my employer should fire me because, you know, he might come to my place of work and start shooting the place up.
Veritas
9/15/2010, 12:29 PM
I'm an employer. If one of my people publicly burned a Koran, a Bible, or any other religious book, I'd put them on the "fire quickly for something else" list.
Poor judgment is a character trait that affects all aspects of an individuals actions. The public burning religious documents is an exercise in the stupidity that freedom allows.
You have a right to do stupid ****, I have a right to fire you for whatever reason I wish (in Texas, anyway).
Frozen Sooner
9/15/2010, 12:55 PM
Veritas / Frozen, I'll give the ACLU their due if they take up this guys case. I'm willing to bet they refuse to if asked and won't volunteer.
Why would you assume that? As scuba pointed out, they've filed any number of amicus briefs in support of free expression rights for people they disagree with.
47straight
9/15/2010, 02:38 PM
Religious folks love to bag on the ACLU but they play it pretty straight. They don't really have a leftish agenda, they sorta just have an atheist agenda. And if you were going to do a Venn diagram, the intersection of interests where would be +50%.
Completely disagree. Clock shines on a dog's *** twice a day, or something to that affect.
47straight
9/15/2010, 02:39 PM
Why would you assume that? As scuba pointed out, they've filed any number of amicus briefs in support of free expression rights for people they disagree with.
Assuming that the people they disagree with aren't pro-life protestors.
Gandalf_The_Grey
9/15/2010, 02:53 PM
The Jewish argument holds no water since the Jew didn't go to a public place and suddenly just become all Jewy (I assume this involves circumcision somehow) As for the neighbor thing, if you and your neighbor get in enough trouble that the police get called and some type of charges are filed, I would be able to fire you regardless.
Frozen Sooner
9/15/2010, 02:55 PM
Assuming that the people they disagree with aren't pro-life protestors.
Wrong.
http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/aclu-sues-protect-free-speech-rights-anti-abortion-church-group-indiana
http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/iowa-civil-liberties-union-defends-right-students-wear-anti-abortion-t-shirts
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/oct/09100910.html
http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16471
Leroy Lizard
9/15/2010, 03:48 PM
Completely disagree. Clock shines on a dog's *** twice a day, or something to that affect.
They like high-profile cases (like defending the Klan) in which they defend the Right so that they can showcase their "fairness." The organization is composed of leftists and so they are going to have more interest in defending leftist causes. Human nature.
Tiptonsooner
9/15/2010, 04:44 PM
Completely disagree. Clock shines on a dog's *** twice a day, or something to that affect.
sig worthy!!!
sooner_born_1960
9/15/2010, 06:18 PM
Gandolf, your answer doesn't really come close to the topic. Nor does it defend your original post.
47straight
9/15/2010, 07:10 PM
Wrong.
http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/aclu-sues-protect-free-speech-rights-anti-abortion-church-group-indiana
http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/iowa-civil-liberties-union-defends-right-students-wear-anti-abortion-t-shirts
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/oct/09100910.html
http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16471
Yeah, I should have said pro-life contientious objectors.
BU BEAR
9/15/2010, 10:15 PM
The ACLU might be the most misunderstood organization in this entire country.
"Communism is the goal." ---Roger Baldwin, founder of the ACLU
Nope. I think we got it.
sooneron
9/15/2010, 10:23 PM
NJ Transit succs .. FYI
"Communism is the goal." ---Roger Baldwin, founder of the ACLU
Nope. I think we got it.
Yet 10-15 years after giving that quote, the same man purges the ACLU of communist party members, and pens this book (while still head of the ACLU): http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001431536
KABOOKIE
9/15/2010, 10:47 PM
A jihadi is born every time a kooran is burned.
Frozen Sooner
9/15/2010, 11:09 PM
Yeah, I should have said pro-life contientious objectors.
Pro-life people who refuse to serve in the military? Sorry, you may have to help me out with what you're talking about.
GKeeper316
9/15/2010, 11:16 PM
where does all this hate for the aclu come from?
the only thing they do is protect your civil liberties.
they have no agenda beyond that, and i challenge anyone to prove otherwise.
Crucifax Autumn
9/15/2010, 11:28 PM
The ridiculous hatred started when GHW Bush called Dukakis a "card carrying member of the ACLU".
GrapevineSooner
9/15/2010, 11:44 PM
Lest we forget the day the Florida ACLU filed an amicus brief asking a court to protect the confidentiality of Rush Limbaugh's medical records (http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/aclu-asks-court-protect-confidentiality-rush-limbaughs-medical-records).
Granted, they also had a long-term goal of preventing a precedent from being set in that case that could have allowed the privacy of Joe Schmoe to be violated. But still...
The ACLU of Florida's Simon added: ""For many people, it may seem odd that the ACLU has come to the defense of Rush Limbaugh. But we have always said that the ACLU's real client is the Bill of Rights and we will continue to safeguard the values of equality, fairness and privacy for everyone, regardless of race, economic status or political point of view.""
I don't see how endangering your fellow employees because you are retard entitles you to keep your job. You have a right to say and do what you want but there is consequences for your actions. If someone got killed while he was working, people would be outraged that he wasn't fired.
C'mon man.
OUthunder
9/15/2010, 11:46 PM
People do worse stuff everyday and don't lose their jobs. This guy did it on his own time and away from work, so IMHO, it's none of his employers fukking business what he does on his own time if it doesn't effect his ability to do his job.
Ya know, one of my employees just knocked up his college girlfriend. They prolly make 30k between the two of em. Since my tax dollars are prolly gonna end up supporting the little bastard, I think I'll just fire him for not wearing a condom and being more responsible.
yeah, that's the ticket!
KABOOKIE
9/15/2010, 11:53 PM
Umm, let's see he burns the Koran...that might **** someone off. That someone might try to shoot him or blow his *** up. If he is at work, you can see how that might endanger his fellow and employees and other people.
Careful now. You might lose your job for saying something this stupid.
47straight
9/16/2010, 12:57 AM
Pro-life people who refuse to serve in the military? Sorry, you may have to help me out with what you're talking about.
Health-care professionals and hospitals.
Leroy Lizard
9/16/2010, 02:43 AM
People do worse stuff everyday and don't lose their jobs. This guy did it on his own time and away from work, so IMHO, it's none of his employers fukking business what he does on his own time if it doesn't effect his ability to do his job.
It doesn't work like that, as many have found out. Ultimately, if you do something to embarrass your employer, look to get canned (and rightfully so).
This situation is different, since the employer is the government.
People do worse stuff everyday and don't lose their jobs. This guy did it on his own time and away from work, so IMHO, it's none of his employers fukking business what he does on his own time if it doesn't effect his ability to do his job.
Ya know, one of my employees just knocked up his college girlfriend. They prolly make 30k between the two of em. Since my tax dollars are prolly gonna end up supporting the little bastard, I think I'll just fire him for not wearing a condom and being more responsible.
yeah, that's the ticket!
There are lots of things that people do in their down time that cost them their jobs. How many teachers have been fired because of photos they posted to their facebook page? like this one: http://www.insideedition.com/news.aspx?storyId=3638
sooneron
9/16/2010, 10:18 AM
It doesn't work like that, as many have found out. Ultimately, if you do something to embarrass your employer, look to get canned (and rightfully so).
This situation is different, since the employer is the government.
And that is NJ Transit which succs
landrun
9/16/2010, 11:47 AM
Yet 10-15 years after giving that quote, the same man purges the ACLU of communist party members, and pens this book (while still head of the ACLU): http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001431536
Granted, I haven't read the book. But that doesn't mean that communism isn't still the goal. I have some problems with things that are done in the name of capitalism. I have a problem with things that people who are capitalists have done. But I'm still a capitalist and believe it provides the greatest liberty and chance of happiness than any other system of government.
Have you read this book? Is he arguing against communism? Or just complaining about things in his favorite system that he'd like to see changed?
Umm, let's see he burns the Koran...that might **** someone off. That someone might try to shoot him or blow his *** up. If he is at work, you can see how that might endanger his fellow and employees and other people.
Following that line of reasoning, the people at Publishers Clearing House can be sued by relatives of anyone shot to death by a fellow postal employee . . .
Scott D
9/16/2010, 11:50 AM
There are lots of things that people do in their down time that cost them their jobs. How many teachers have been fired because of photos they posted to their facebook page? like this one: http://www.insideedition.com/news.aspx?storyId=3638
not to mention there are HR people who have openly admitted that they look at facebook to weed out potential hires based upon the content of their facebook.
Scott D
9/16/2010, 11:52 AM
Oh and I find there to be some hypocrisy when some people are quick to want to boot a kid from a football team for a "transgression" that is on par with what this guy did, but yet think this guy got a bum rap for doing something that likely did violate some part of his employment agreement.
sooneron
9/16/2010, 12:10 PM
I doubt it was a violation of his contract as NJT seems to attract doosh tards. Because, you know, NJ Transit succs .
sooneron
9/16/2010, 12:12 PM
And I love the fact that so many of the SO neo cons are in agreement with Keith Olbermann!! :D
Gandalf_The_Grey
9/16/2010, 01:51 PM
Answer me this question. Would you want you want Daughter, Son, Husband, or Wife working next to this guy for the next two months?
GKeeper316
9/16/2010, 02:02 PM
Answer me this question. Would you want you want Daughter, Son, Husband, or Wife working next to this guy for the next two months?
thats not the point.
we dont restrict people's actions based on the potential ramifications of said action.
Frozen Sooner
9/16/2010, 02:06 PM
thats not the point.
we dont restrict people's actions based on the potential ramifications of said action.
We don't?
I mean, jeez, yeah, I don't agree with the guy's firing, but that's just a silly thing to say there. We restrict people's actions based on the potential ramifications all the time. It's called a penal code. I'm relatively sure Oklahoma has one.
Gandalf_The_Grey
9/16/2010, 02:08 PM
Oh I believe he can burn the Koran until his hearts content...but if I was his boss, I WOULD find a reason for him to be gone.
sooner_born_1960
9/16/2010, 02:08 PM
Froze said penal.
sooner_born_1960
9/16/2010, 02:10 PM
And I love the fact that so many of the SO neo cons are in agreement with Keith Olbermann!! :D
A broken clock shows the correct time twice a day.
Gandalf_The_Grey
9/16/2010, 02:18 PM
Unless it is a digital clock!
sooner_born_1960
9/16/2010, 02:19 PM
Right then Keith, er the clock is only correct once a day.
Scott D
9/16/2010, 03:28 PM
I doubt it was a violation of his contract as NJT seems to attract doosh tards. Because, you know, NJ Transit succs .
it's common knowledge that the NJTA is full of morons...but that holds true for nearly every TA in the country ;)
virginiasooner
9/16/2010, 03:33 PM
The right wing HATES ON the ACLU because they were the lawyers for the plaintiffs that removed sectarian prayer from the public schools. The ACLU also defended the Nazi group that wanted to march through Skokie, Illinois(home of many Holocaust survivors). And while NJ Transit was probably wrong to fire him, his actions show a callous disregard for personal safety. I wouldn't want to be working around him, and I wouldn't want to be on a train that he's worked on.
Proud member of the ACLU since 2001.
GKeeper316
9/16/2010, 05:36 PM
We don't?
I mean, jeez, yeah, I don't agree with the guy's firing, but that's just a silly thing to say there. We restrict people's actions based on the potential ramifications all the time. It's called a penal code. I'm relatively sure Oklahoma has one.
within the context of non criminal activities such as burning flags or bibles, i should have said.
BU BEAR
10/31/2010, 10:58 AM
Yet 10-15 years after giving that quote, the same man purges the ACLU of communist party members, and pens this book (while still head of the ACLU): http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001431536
Then someone needs to tell Baldwin that the Commies are back, except this time they are nominally affiliated with the Green and Democrat parties.
bluedogok
10/31/2010, 08:09 PM
The ACLU also defended the Nazi group that wanted to march through Skokie, Illinois(home of many Holocaust survivors).
Damn Illinois Nazis.....
landrun
11/8/2010, 02:10 PM
Giving credit where credit is due...
I tip my hat to the ACLU for taking up this guys case.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jPXTaFDpD9zMYiifdoEQYw35gOYg?docId=f23cbddec 5b2422a81098e832a7b62dc
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