Oklahoma Atheists, Spreadin' The Good Word

[JohnnyMack]

New billboards are up in both Tulsa and OKC.

Tulsa:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2010/20100904_AthiestBillboard.jpg


Coalition to publicize its beliefs

The Tulsa humanists also salute the late Sen. Thomas Gore.

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100904_18_A17_CUTLIN204643&archive=yes

A billboard proclaiming that "Atheism is OK in Oklahoma" will go up Tuesday at 15th Street and the Broken Arrow Expressway.

The billboard salutes "Gore – the First Atheist Senator," a reference to Sen. Thomas Pryor Gore, one of Oklahoma's first two senators and the maternal grandfather of author Gore Vidal.

"To our knowledge, Thomas Gore was the first atheist U.S. senator," said Bill Dusenberry, with the Coalition for Reason, which is sponsoring the billboard.

"We're proud of it, and we hope other Tulsans will be proud of it," he said.

Gore, who was blind, was an Oklahoma senator from 1907 until 1921 and from 1931 until 1937.

The Coalition for Reason is a group of Tulsa humanist organizations that includes the Tulsa Humanist Association, Tulsa Atheists and the Tulsa chapter of the Freedom from Religion Foundation.

Dan Nerren, secretary of the Humanist Association, said, "We wanted to bring more publicity to the philosophy of atheism. We don't think we get enough publicity."

Nerren defined his philosophy as "the belief that there is no God."

Randy Bradley, president of the Tulsa chapter of the Freedom from Religion Foundation, said they hope the billboard will raise awareness that this rationalistic outlook on life has been in Oklahoma for a long time.

"A lot of Oklahomans have had these convictions, including Thomas Gore," he said.

"We believe reason and rationalism are the best ways to approach life. We don't
believe in a supernatural entity," he said.

Dusenberry said most of the cost of the billboard is being carried by the National Freedom from Religion Foundation in Madison, Wis.

The billboard will remain up at least a month, he said.

Last December, the Coalition for Reason put up a billboard on Interstate 44 that asked: "Are You Good Without God?" And answered: "Millions Are."

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100904_18_A17_CUTLIN204643&archive=yes

OKC:

http://kwtv.images.worldnow.com/images/13115284_BG2.jpg


Billboard Reaching Out to Non-Believers in Oklahoma City

OKLAHOMA CITY -- A new billboard by the State Fairgrounds has been getting a lot of attention.

On northbound Interstate 44 and N.W. 10th Street, the Oklahoma City Coalition of Reason put up a billboard in time for next week's state fair. The billboard reads "Don't believe in God? Join the club."

The billboard is part of a campaign by the Free-thinking Oklahoma coalition to reach out to non-believers in the U.S. The Coalition said they want the skeptics to know they're not alone.

The Oklahoma City billboard is part of a national campaign that has already been launched in cities including Austin, New Orleans and Seattle among others.

Keep up the good work!

[tator]

Why should I be proud of it? Why are people so ****ing concerned with what other people believe?

[Serge Ibaka]

Why should I be proud of it? Why are people so ****ing concerned with what other people believe?

My assumption is that the FFRF is taking a Bill Maher/Religulous angle, believing that religion disrupts society.

And in which case, they're recruiting people to Atheism because they think that it is a good thing to do.

[C&CDean]

Real nice JM. You putzes are worse than the scream-in-your-face born agains. I've got a billboard for you. It says "BLOW ME DUMBASS NON BELIEVER."

[TUSooner]

My assumption is that the FFRF is taking a Bill Maher/Religulous angle, believing that religion disrupts society....


I am a Christian, and a rather orthodox Protestant & Methodist at that. And I am, of course, well aware of the amazingly great things that have been done for "society" and especially for the least of its members in the name of God, particularly by Christians. And I'm well aware of the Grace that has saved so many from despair and destruction.
Yet, when I consider that Islamist murderers are "religious," and that there's a shocking abundance of other religious kooks (including Christian ones), and when I recall many decent people I have known who have been psychologically crippled or oppressed by varieties of religious dogma and hell-fire theology, I can't help but wonder if Jesus Christ himself wouldn't prefer that some folks were atheists rather than the religious wackos that they are.

[starclassic tama]

yeah, have to agree with dean on this one. i'm obviously a non-believer, but anyone who feels the need to publicize their beliefs and "recruit" others annoys me greatly... believe whatever you want and STFU

[Leroy Lizard]

A club based on not believing in something. Sounds like a pretty boring club.

And I have the sneaky suspicion that the membership will comprise mostly immature teenaged malcontents. (Just a hunch.)

[tator]

A club based on not believing in something. Sounds like a pretty boring club.
Looks like now they'd expect you to go out witnessing about your non-belief too. The suckitude has increased exponentially.

[JohnnyMack]

Real nice JM. You putzes are worse than the scream-in-your-face born agains. I've got a billboard for you. It says "BLOW ME DUMBASS NON BELIEVER."

You sound more and more like your mean old Granny every day.

[Leroy Lizard]

Looks like now they'd expect you to go out witnessing about your non-belief too. The suckitude has increased exponentially.

How are they going to function without dropping into the same habits that they complain about from religious folks? "Today, we're going to stand around the university center and tell passers-by that... oh wait, we hated it when Reverend Bob did that."

[JohnnyMack]

Looks like now they'd expect you to go out witnessing about your non-belief too. The suckitude has increased exponentially.

http://imgur.com/V4yi5.jpg

:D

[Mississippi Sooner]

I don't believe a word of it.

[TUSooner]

*** I've got a billboard for you. It says "BLOW ME DUMBASS NON BELIEVER."

Without the internet and SF.com, I never would have discovered the wonders of Dean, and life just would not be quite as good. :D :D :D

[Chuck Bao]

Real nice JM. You putzes are worse than the scream-in-your-face born agains. I've got a billboard for you. It says "BLOW ME DUMBASS NON BELIEVER."

I really love that Christian spirit and think it would make a most excellent billboard.

And, I had no idea that Gore Vidal had Oklahoma ties. I should go back and re-read some of his books.

[soonerborn30]

I am a Christian, and a rather orthodox Protestant & Methodist at that. And I am, of course, well aware of the amazingly great things that have been done for "society" and especially for the least of its members in the name of God, particularly by Christians. And I'm well aware of the Grace that has saved so many from despair and destruction.
Yet, when I consider that Islamist murderers are "religious," and that there's a shocking abundance of other religious kooks (including Christian ones), and when I recall many decent people I have known who have been psychologically crippled or oppressed by varieties of religious dogma and hell-fire theology, I can't help but wonder if Jesus Christ himself wouldn't prefer that some folks were atheists rather than the religious wackos that they are.

Well put. +1

[soonerborn30]

"The billboard will remain up at least a month, he said."

Or until some kid spray paints a giant phallus on it and tears it up. Whichever comes first.

[OhU1]

The billboards look pretty harmless to me. There are plenty of people who do not believe in the super natural but who have had to remain quiet out of a justified fear of negative retribution. These organizations are letting like minded people know they exist - just like churches do. So what?

[StormySooner-IN]

The billboards look pretty harmless to me. There are plenty of people who do not believe in the super natural but who have had to remain quiet out of a justified fear of negative retribution. These organizations are letting like minded people know they exist - just like churches do. So what?
I agree completely. I've converted to be a non-believer myself. I however am not going to push it on anyone. People can believe whatever they like. I'm honestly tired of hearing arguments from friends about whose religious branch is right, and "So-and-so's Pastor needs their *** kicked by So-and-so's reverend"

Believe or refuse to believe whatever you like, put don't show up at front doors trying to shove it down anyones throat.

[soonerscuba]

The billboards look pretty harmless to me. There are plenty of people who do not believe in the super natural but who have had to remain quiet out of a justified fear of negative retribution. These organizations are letting like minded people know they exist - just like churches do. So what?Exactly, there are social and professional ramifications to being an atheist in OK. While I think it's sort of a waste of money, there are more than a few that are probably a bit happy to see that they simply aren't alone.

[Leroy Lizard]

You mean, there are people out there that don't believe in God? The next thing you're going to be telling us is that there teens out there having sex.

[soonerscuba]

You mean, there are people out there that don't believe in God? The next thing you're going to be telling us is that there teens out there having sex.Or people that confuse contraianism for intelligence. Crazy, right?

[Leroy Lizard]

Don't let me interrupt your therapy.

[Sooner_Havok]

Exactly, there are social and professional ramifications to being an atheist in OK. While I think it's sort of a waste of money, there are more than a few that are probably a bit happy to see that they simply aren't alone.

Yup, I'll say I am atheist here, but since I live in Oklahoma, and hope to get a job here someday, I keep that a secret IRL.

[bluedogok]

A club based on not believing in something. Sounds like a pretty boring club.


Looks like now they'd expect you to go out witnessing about your non-belief too. The suckitude has increased exponentially.
It's nothing more than a "religion" against religion...

[sooneron]

You sound more and more like your mean old Granny every day.

Trouble in paradise!! You guys are just like an old mar...

wait a tic!

:pop:

[Boarder]

I recognize the fact that they have the Constitutional right to post their billboard, but it is very insensitive of them to post it mere blocks away from the Admiral Twin fire. That is nothing but a slap in the face to those who were affected by the tragedy.

[proud gonzo]

"The billboard will remain up at least a month, he said."

Or until some kid spray paints a giant phallus on it and tears it up. Whichever comes first.

heh

[Sooner_Havok]

heh

Ok, that one shouldn't count!

[MR2-Sooner86]

Ah Atheism, the denial of a god but the belief in one's own ego.

Christianity, the biggest hypocrites ever but they're going to Heaven, you're not.

Agnosticism, the belief in...whatever, who's up for a beer?

Yeah, count me in on the last camp. I really don't care one way or the other. I see a bunch of church billboards up, why not add some atheist ones in there.

[Sooner_Havok]

Ah Atheism, the denial of a god but the belief in one's own ego.

Christianity, the biggest hypocrites ever but they're going to Heaven, you're not.

Agnosticism, the belief in...whatever, who's up for a beer?

Yeah, count me in on the last camp. I really don't care one way or the other. I see a bunch of church billboards up, why not add some atheist ones in there.

They took your jerb!!!!

[MR2-Sooner86]

They took your jerb!!!!

What does a South Park immigration episode reference have to do with religious billboards? Guess I'm missing something.

[Sooner_Havok]

That is why they are mad. By putting up an atheist billboard, the godless heathens are taking der jerbs!!!

(Converting the masses and what not)

[Leroy Lizard]

I recognize the fact that they have the Constitutional right to post their billboard, but it is very insensitive of them to post it mere blocks away from the Admiral Twin fire. That is nothing but a slap in the face to those who were affected by the tragedy.

Nicely played.

[Blue]

nm.

[homerSimpsonsBrain]

Dan Nerren, secretary of the Humanist Association, said, "We wanted to bring more publicity to the philosophy of atheism. We don't think we get enough publicity."

Maybe they should threaten to burn a Koran/Qur'an/Qorain/K'oraen. That seems to generate a good bit of publicity.

Fargin atheists got no balls!!

[setem]

I don't think they are recruiting anyone. They are just letting others know it is okay to be out about their non belief. I bet they think our signs are pretty silly too. I think we should all ban together Atheists and believers against the Westboro Baptist Church! They are the real sickos in society! I have never seen a Atheist protest a dead soldier's funeral!

[stoopified]

Can't we all just get along?

[Leroy Lizard]

Can't we all just get along?

No way. Strife, aggression, and violence is how we progress as a society.

[Okla-homey]

Athiesm = the ultimate manifestation of human selfishness.

[JohnnyMack]

Athiesm = the ultimate manifestation of human selfishness.

I'm good for goodness sake. Unlike you, who does it out of the fear of reprisal.

[AggieTool]

I don't see what's the big deal about folks who believe in invisible sky gods or magic Jews.

It's not like religion has ever resulted in anything bad.:D

[King Barry's Back]

The billboards look pretty harmless to me. There are plenty of people who do not believe in the super natural but who have had to remain quiet out of a justified fear of negative retribution. These organizations are letting like minded people know they exist - just like churches do. So what?

I'll tell you my issue with this billboard and the associated campaign.

To me, it looks like the language and tone used are of a recruiting nature. Which is fine. They are an organization, they have to recruit and raise money, but honestly, if you are an atheist, why do you want to add to the rolls?

Definition of atheist: Someone who believes that there is no God, no eternal plan for mankind, no afterlife and no reward for faithful followers or the virtuous.

To sum up: Everybody dies, and that's the end of it.

In fact, we are all going to die. Our children or other close family members will "keep us alive" in their memories for another few decades, then they will all die. Their children may have a few very vague memories or know a couple of family tradition stories about you - but almost nothing of that will survive to the generation following them.

So, basically, you will die, and then (unless you are an extraordinary person) everything you ever did or thought or felt or believed or said, will be wiped away for all eternity. The only sign of your existence will be a forgotten name on a cold marble slate in the back corner of some distant cemetery.

If you believe in an afterlife, that just doesn't matter. You have something positive, enriching and hopeful to believe in and to follow.

If you are atheist, your prospects are looking pretty bleak. Basically, their whole value system can be summarized as "You will die and be forgotten and the world and mankind will not care that you ever breathed." End of story. Over and out.

That's sad and depressing, at least to me, and if atheism is what I truly and deeply believed, I would in no way be arrogant about it, or feel intellectually superior to those who did believe in an afterlife.

Instead, I would be constantly looking for signs that maybe something else, something after death, DID exist. I'd be looking at my religious acquaintances and hoping that maybe they were right, and wondering what I was missing.

And I would absolutely certainly not be trying to convince anybody else that my bleak and hopeless world view was the right path for them.

Even if the religious are wrong, which can not be proved, at least they have something to look forward to in the long run. The atheists do not, and can not.

Stephen Hawking recently announced that "We don't need God," when the more appropriate question for him should be "Does God need Stephen Hawking?"

[AggieTool]

I'll tell you my issue with this billboard and the associated campaign.

To me, it looks like the language and tone used are of a recruiting nature. Which is fine. They are an organization, they have to recruit and raise money, but honestly, if you are an atheist, why do you want to add to the rolls?

Definition of atheist: Someone who believes that there is no God, no eternal plan for mankind, no afterlife and no reward for faithful followers or the virtuous.

To sum up: Everybody dies, and that's the end of it.

In fact, we are all going to die. Our children or other close family members will "keep us alive" in their memories for another few decades, then they will all die. Their children may have a few very vague memories or know a couple of family tradition stories about you - but almost nothing of that will survive to the generation following them.

So, basically, you will die, and then (unless you are an extraordinary person) everything you ever did or thought or felt or believed or said, will be wiped away for all eternity. The only sign of your existence will be a forgotten name on a cold marble slate in the back corner of some distant cemetery.

If you believe in an afterlife, that just doesn't matter. You have something positive, enriching and hopeful to believe in and to follow.

If you are atheist, your prospects are looking pretty bleak. Basically, their whole value system can be summarized as "You will die and be forgotten and the world and mankind will not care that you ever breathed." End of story. Over and out.

That's sad and depressing, at least to me, and if atheism is what I truly and deeply believed, I would in no way be arrogant about it, or feel intellectually superior to those who did believe in an afterlife.

Instead, I would be constantly looking for signs that maybe something else, something after death, DID exist. I'd be looking at my religious acquaintances and hoping that maybe they were right, and wondering what I was missing.

And I would absolutely certainly not be trying to convince anybody else that my bleak and hopeless world view was the right path for them.

Even if the religious are wrong, which can not be proved, at least they have something to look forward to in the long run. The atheists do not, and can not.

Stephen Hawking recently announced that "We don't need God," when the more appropriate question for him should be "Does God need Stephen Hawking?"

Very eloquent indeed....:)

But to broaden your question as to "does God needs Stephen Hawking?".

Does God need churches, money, a certain diet/dress of his followers, a set of words called prayer, etc...etc...?

What bothers me about modern religion is that we dumb god down so we can comprehend him and use him to justify atrocities.

The god that created the known universe most likely regards us as bacterium in a petre dish, and our ability to comprehend him is on par with said bacterium.

How self-absorbed and arrogant are we to assume WE know what god wants.:D

Deism is where it's at baby!

[King Barry's Back]

I'm good for goodness sake. Unlike you, who does it out of the fear of reprisal.

If you are an atheist, who or what decides if your behavior is "good"? I guess you do yourself. I am just guessing, but I'd bet that both Hitler and Stalin both judged themselves to be good men, though they collaborated to kill some 40 or 50 million people.

I believe that I should help the poor because Jesus, whom I believe is a deity, told me too.

If I didn't believe in Jesus, I'd have a hard time figuring out why it is better to take money from my children and give it to other people whom I don't even know.

But in the end, I guess it IS easier to be "good for goodness sake" when you get to define for yourself what "good" is.

So the atheists have one on us there.

Christians - 0 Godless heathens - 1

[C&CDean]

Pay no attention to Johnny Mack. He's a wannabe atheist who thinks he gets it. Poor little boy.

[Serge Ibaka]

I'll tell you my issue with this billboard and the associated campaign.

To me, it looks like the language and tone used are of a recruiting nature. Which is fine. They are an organization, they have to recruit and raise money, but honestly, if you are an atheist, why do you want to add to the rolls?

Definition of atheist: Someone who believes that there is no God, no eternal plan for mankind, no afterlife and no reward for faithful followers or the virtuous.

To sum up: Everybody dies, and that's the end of it.

In fact, we are all going to die. Our children or other close family members will "keep us alive" in their memories for another few decades, then they will all die. Their children may have a few very vague memories or know a couple of family tradition stories about you - but almost nothing of that will survive to the generation following them.

So, basically, you will die, and then (unless you are an extraordinary person) everything you ever did or thought or felt or believed or said, will be wiped away for all eternity. The only sign of your existence will be a forgotten name on a cold marble slate in the back corner of some distant cemetery.

If you believe in an afterlife, that just doesn't matter. You have something positive, enriching and hopeful to believe in and to follow.

If you are atheist, your prospects are looking pretty bleak. Basically, their whole value system can be summarized as "You will die and be forgotten and the world and mankind will not care that you ever breathed." End of story. Over and out.

That's sad and depressing, at least to me, and if atheism is what I truly and deeply believed, I would in no way be arrogant about it, or feel intellectually superior to those who did believe in an afterlife.

Instead, I would be constantly looking for signs that maybe something else, something after death, DID exist. I'd be looking at my religious acquaintances and hoping that maybe they were right, and wondering what I was missing.

And I would absolutely certainly not be trying to convince anybody else that my bleak and hopeless world view was the right path for them.

Even if the religious are wrong, which can not be proved, at least they have something to look forward to in the long run. The atheists do not, and can not.

Stephen Hawking recently announced that "We don't need God," when the more appropriate question for him should be "Does God need Stephen Hawking?"

To be fair: I'm not atheist; I'm agnostic. But I find your post interesting and I want to respond.

The people sponsoring the billboards are probably not only atheist; they're anti-religion. If you've seen or heard about Bill Maher's documentary "Religulous," you know the stance that I'm talking about. And in a way, I sympathize with their perspective. But, at the same time, I think religion can provide very positive things (to individuals and the way that they interact with their communities), and since I "stop short" at agnosticism, I don't see a point in actively arguing against religion (most of the time).

So anyway: that explains the billboards. But I think you're a little mistaken in saying that Atheism is an intrinsically nihilist or melancholy perspective, and I think Christians might often think that only because religion means very much to them--they cannot imagine living happily without it.

But existence can still be happy and beautiful and meaningful without an afterlife (even if it IS a misguided or illogical happiness).

[Leroy Lizard]

I'll tell you my issue with this billboard and the associated campaign.

To me, it looks like the language and tone used are of a recruiting nature. Which is fine. They are an organization, they have to recruit and raise money, but honestly, if you are an atheist, why do you want to add to the rolls?

Definition of atheist: Someone who believes that there is no God, no eternal plan for mankind, no afterlife and no reward for faithful followers or the virtuous.

To sum up: Everybody dies, and that's the end of it.

In fact, we are all going to die. Our children or other close family members will "keep us alive" in their memories for another few decades, then they will all die. Their children may have a few very vague memories or know a couple of family tradition stories about you - but almost nothing of that will survive to the generation following them.

So, basically, you will die, and then (unless you are an extraordinary person) everything you ever did or thought or felt or believed or said, will be wiped away for all eternity. The only sign of your existence will be a forgotten name on a cold marble slate in the back corner of some distant cemetery.

If you believe in an afterlife, that just doesn't matter. You have something positive, enriching and hopeful to believe in and to follow.

If you are atheist, your prospects are looking pretty bleak. Basically, their whole value system can be summarized as "You will die and be forgotten and the world and mankind will not care that you ever breathed." End of story. Over and out.

That's sad and depressing, at least to me, and if atheism is what I truly and deeply believed, I would in no way be arrogant about it, or feel intellectually superior to those who did believe in an afterlife.

Instead, I would be constantly looking for signs that maybe something else, something after death, DID exist. I'd be looking at my religious acquaintances and hoping that maybe they were right, and wondering what I was missing.

And I would absolutely certainly not be trying to convince anybody else that my bleak and hopeless world view was the right path for them.

Even if the religious are wrong, which can not be proved, at least they have something to look forward to in the long run. The atheists do not, and can not.

Stephen Hawking recently announced that "We don't need God," when the more appropriate question for him should be "Does God need Stephen Hawking?"

That is one of the best posts I have ever read on this board. You nailed it.

I am sure my compliment would have felt better if it had come from someone else. Sorry.

[Leroy Lizard]

Very eloquent indeed....:)

But to broaden your question as to "does God needs Stephen Hawking?".

Does God need churches, money, a certain diet/dress of his followers, a set of words called prayer, etc...etc...?

What bothers me about modern religion is that we dumb god down so we can comprehend him and use him to justify atrocities.

The god that created the known universe most likely regards us as bacterium in a petre dish, and our ability to comprehend him is on par with said bacterium.

How self-absorbed and arrogant are we to assume WE know what god wants.:D

Deism is where it's at baby!

Read the Bible. The answers to your questions are in there. (You may not believe in these answers, but that's your right.)

[AggieTool]

Read the Bible. The answers to your questions are in there. (You may not believe in these answers, but that's your right.)

Who wrote the bible? It's a book.

[Leroy Lizard]

Who wrote the bible? It's a book.

Are you looking for words typeset in magic fairy dust? Of course it comes from a book.

[JohnnyMack]

If you are an atheist, who or what decides if your behavior is "good"? I guess you do yourself. I am just guessing, but I'd bet that both Hitler and Stalin both judged themselves to be good men, though they collaborated to kill some 40 or 50 million people.

I believe that I should help the poor because Jesus, whom I believe is a deity, told me too.

If I didn't believe in Jesus, I'd have a hard time figuring out why it is better to take money from my children and give it to other people whom I don't even know.

But in the end, I guess it IS easier to be "good for goodness sake" when you get to define for yourself what "good" is.

So the atheists have one on us there.

Christians - 0 Godless heathens - 1

I'll try and respond to this post and your previous longer one here.

Atheism is not nihilistic, hedonistic, sad or depressing. Atheism isn't anti-Christian either. My path to Atheism is similar to that of most Atheists I've met; as a youth I was taken to a place of worship, taught stories from its holy book, etc. In my teenage years I started asking harder and harder questions of this religion and found that for me personally, the concepts didn't jive. It wasn't enough to accept religion as Occam's razor and simply hope that by following along I'd be hedging my bets against what I was told was a pretty nasty downside. As I began study both other religions, other cultures and a good dose of history I started to recognize a pattern to organized religion that cut across both time and space. I saw common themes developing, noticed similarities between religions that no one bothered following anymore and today's most popular ones. A book that I still consider very vital to my way of thinking of is The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell. A succinct, well written look at religions, myth and superstitions throughout the history of man.

Today I'm a pretty normal guy. Married, two kids and another one on the way. I pay my mortgage on time, have had the same job for the last 12 years and lead a fairly unspectacular life. Tomorrow I'll throw some pork on the smoker, watch the OU game with my Dad and knock back some cold beer. Being an Atheist doesn't give me license to bang hookers, snort coke and murder innocent God fearing folks, fearing no repercussions, for I live by the same social and ethical mores that people who follow a particular religion do. What I'm attempting to do in my life is to transcend the partisan, divisive nature of religion. Christian or Jew? Catholic or Protestant? Baptist or Methodist and to simply live and raise my children by what could today be called "The Golden Rule". It's really that simple. I want to be allowed to live my life, have no harm inflicted on me or mine and inflict no harm on others.

Having been raised in Oklahoma, I know first hand what it's like to be an Atheist in a sea of believers. It's not something I talk about openly, not something I discuss with friends or coworkers. Atheists are about as welcome as gays or muslims around these parts, I get that. Different is bad. Diversity is not that widely accepted. I hope that with campaigns like these billboard advertisements we can reach more and more people who think like I do and just let them know that it's OK not follow an organized religion, that Atheism and Agnosticism are perfectly acceptable choices that shouldn't leave you branded with a societal scarlet letter. If you want to believe, believe, I'm not going to try and forcibly stop you. If you want engage me, ask me my thoughts and opinions on religion, I'll be happy to oblige. Religion isn't for me. Period. And I just hope that we can get through to more kids like I was 20 years ago who knew what they believed but simply didn't know how to come across a resource of information or a network of people who thought the same way they did.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.

- Carl Sagan

[AggieTool]

Are you looking for words typeset in magic fairy dust? Of course it comes from a book.

Well then can't I write a book and make THAT the rules?:)

[Leroy Lizard]

Well then can't I write a book and make THAT the rules?:)

Sure. And if you can pull off what Jesus did, you may be even able to get some people to follow it.

[Leroy Lizard]

Atheism is not nihilistic, hedonistic, sad or depressing.

Actually, you have no way of knowing that. Your ideals, beliefs, and morals are a result of a religious culture. What would you be like if your beliefs were untouched by religion? Well, you would probably act pretty much like an animal.

Consider primitive tribes. They can be absolutely brutal to each other, but even they have a set of standards that were adopted from religious teachings, even if their religion was based on rock worship (and I don't mean Led Zeppelin).

We do have some examples of atheistic societies that have tried to rule according to political ideals rather than religious ideals, but I'm not sure you want to go there.

In other words, atheism cannot take credit for good behavior when the good behavior has been largely influenced by the religion surrounding it.

[GKeeper316]

I'm good for goodness sake. Unlike you, who does it out of the fear of reprisal.

i have this same argument with my dad all the time :(

[JohnnyMack]

Actually, you have no way of knowing that. Your ideals, beliefs, and morals are a result of a religious culture. What would you be like if your beliefs were untouched by religion? Well, you would probably act pretty much like an animal.

Consider primitive tribes. They can be absolutely brutal to each other, but even they have a set of standards that were adopted from religious teachings, even if their religion was based on rock worship (and I don't mean Led Zeppelin).

We do have some examples of atheistic societies that have tried to rule according to political ideals rather than religious ideals, but I'm not sure you want to go there.

In other words, atheism cannot take credit for good behavior when the good behavior has been largely influenced by the religion surrounding it.

So your claim is that a culture develops it's religion first and it's norms, mores, etc. grow out of that? Interesting. Would you like a mulligan on this post?

[My Opinion Matters]

Is it me, or do we have this exact same thread every 3 months?

[Mixer!]

.

[AggieTool]

Sure. And if you can pull off what Jesus did, you may be even able to get some people to follow it.

Ah....the magic Jew story.

[Leroy Lizard]

So your claim is that a culture develops it's religion first and it's norms, mores, etc. grow out of that?

They're intimately tied together. You're trying to separate them. No can do.

[Leroy Lizard]

Ah....the magic Jew story.

If you choose to call it that, very well.

[Crucifax Autumn]

I thought this was the magic Jew:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_qX80mo41ppM/RXi_JxNuV7I/AAAAAAAAAIc/bV-oam6OERI/s400/hebrew_hammer_01.JPG

[bluedogok]

I thought this was the magic Jew:
Maybe it was these guys...

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PR03JWA4L.jpg

[JohnnyMack]

They're intimately tied together. You're trying to separate them. No can do.

I agree that a culture's mores, norms, etc. are closely tied to the religions that develop in those cultures, never said they weren't. But that's very different from what you said earlier.

[Chuck Bao]

I can see where some of you feel that that atheists have no hope of an afterlife and could be amoralistic. I don't think that they see it that way. The atheists that I know are no less moral than the country club Christians and even some of the missionaries who see a reward in heaven for being obnoxious and their faith is the only right call.

You can say that the atheists are nihilists. Okay, how about Buddhists who believe that the cycle of suffering ends with enlightment and then the soul is finally freed? That is not to say that I think anyone here is in danger of reaching enlightment and having their soul released from the cycle of life.

[JohnnyMack]

That is not to say that I think anyone here is in danger of reaching enlightment and having their soul released from the cycle of life.

:D

[OhU1]

So, basically, you will die, and then (unless you are an extraordinary person) everything you ever did or thought or felt or believed or said, will be wiped away for all eternity. The only sign of your existence will be a forgotten name on a cold marble slate in the back corner of some distant cemetery.

If you believe in an afterlife, that just doesn't matter. You have something positive, enriching and hopeful to believe in and to follow.

If you are atheist, your prospects are looking pretty bleak. Basically, their whole value system can be summarized as "You will die and be forgotten and the world and mankind will not care that you ever breathed." End of story. Over and out.

That's sad and depressing, at least to me
"

This post makes an appeal to the human desire to survive our own death. Wishful thinking and "belief" do not make something a reality no matter how earnestly we want it to be true.

Speaking for myself I don't find a world without a God or an afterlife in the least bit bleak. I'm happy to live my life and love learning about the world we live in. I feel grateful I no longer have what I consider to be the delusions of the theist. I am also happy to allow others to believe what they want and I never raise the topic of religion outside of a message board.

I used to believe as you do that "life would be hopeless or meaningless without God" when I was a Christian. But that's just part of the religious mindset - not objective reality for others.

[Leroy Lizard]

I agree that a culture's mores, norms, etc. are closely tied to the religions that develop in those cultures, never said they weren't. But that's very different from what you said earlier.

It's exactly what I said: That your beliefs and character are largely influenced by the religious beliefs that surround you. To say that "I'm an atheist and I behave good and therefore atheism is good" is illogical. Whether the chicken came before the egg is a pointless argument.

[Leroy Lizard]

This post makes an appeal to the human desire to survive our own death. Wishful thinking and "belief" do not make something a reality no matter how earnestly we want it to be true.

But that's not what he said. His point was that it's illogical for atheists to revel in their lack of belief.

Remember the Simpsons episode where Homer, Bart, and Ned are marooned on a raft? Homer takes great pleasure in thinking he wins an argument because he thinks they will all die. Atheists have the same outlook.

[Leroy Lizard]

I can see where some of you feel that that atheists have no hope of an afterlife and could be amoralistic. I don't think that they see it that way. The atheists that I know are no less moral than the country club Christians and even some of the missionaries who see a reward in heaven for being obnoxious and their faith is the only right call.

Again, their morals are largely shaped by a Christian culture.

Not sure how Buddhists factor in all this. This isn't about alternative beliefs, but the lack of belief.

[JohnnyMack]

It's exactly what I said: That your beliefs and character are largely influenced by the religious beliefs that surround you. To say that "I'm an atheist and I behave good and therefore atheism is good" is illogical. Whether the chicken came before the egg is a pointless argument.

I could say the same thing about Christianity or any other religion.

A society develops norms and mores before they develop a religion to explain the unexplainable. Period.

[OhU1]

But that's not what he said. His point was that it's illogical for atheists to revel in their lack of belief.

Remember the Simpsons episode where Homer, Bart, and Ned are marooned on a raft? Homer takes great pleasure in thinking he wins an argument because he thinks they will all die. Atheists have the same outlook.

Oh, that's why he spent 3/4 of the post talking about the emotional aspect of believing in an afterlife or not?

Who says atheist are reveling in lack of belief? We are not allowed to associate and are we just supposed to remain politely quiet?

[Leroy Lizard]

I could say the same thing about Christianity or any other religion.

A society develops norms and mores before they develop a religion to explain the unexplainable. Period.

I like that "Period" method. Truth by blatant assertion.

[Ike]

Maybe it was these guys...

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PR03JWA4L.jpg

It's important to wear the right polyester blend...

[OUthunder]

Why should I be proud of it? Why are people so ****ing concerned with what other people believe?

blah.

[JohnnyMack]

I like that "Period" method. Truth by blatant assertion.

Show me one culture that developed an organized religion before it developed norms and mores. Go ahead. Take your time. Use graphs if necessary.

[TUSooner]

I like that "Period" method. Truth by blatant assertion.

You're just mad because he's commandeered your favorite method of argument.

[picasso]

I can see where some of you feel that that atheists have no hope of an afterlife and could be amoralistic. I don't think that they see it that way. The atheists that I know are no less moral than the country club Christians and even some of the missionaries who see a reward in heaven for being obnoxious and their faith is the only right call.



Most true Christians aren't seeking a reward in heaven. We're only wanting God's approval when we meet him.

And you apparently haven't read any doctors accounts on those on their deathbeds.

[Leroy Lizard]

Show me one culture that developed an organized religion before it developed norms and mores. Go ahead. Take your time. Use graphs if necessary.

I can't think of a single culture that didn't develop spiritual beliefs from their very earliest beginnings. Even the most primitive tribes hold spiritual beliefs that dictate what they should do to survive. Again, norms and religious beliefs go hand in hand and develop simultaneously. How can you possibly disagree?

And this still doesn't remove the basic truth that you continually ignore: That modern-day atheists developed their beliefs and norms in a religious culture. No segment of our society is untouched by religion.

[starclassic tama]

Sure. And if you can pull off what Jesus did, you may be even able to get some people to follow it.

the thing is, the only "evidence" we have that jesus did anything supernatural or whatever is the fact that somebody said he did in a book.

[GKeeper316]

the thing is, the only "evidence" we have that jesus did anything supernatural or whatever is the fact that somebody said he did in a book.

and the first gospel wasnt even written until almost 50 years after he died... and then the council of nycea decided what gospels went into the bible, and ignored the 2 dozen or so other gospels (including the gospel of mary magdeline and the gospel of st thomas... which are considerd by biblical scholars to be the most accurate stories of the living jesus, and both are considered heresy to read by the vatican) that were completely left out of the new testament. the church (vatican) then spent the next 3-4 hundred years trying to find all existing copies of those omitted gospels and destroy them. had it not been for a shepherd looking for a lost lamb and stubling onto the dead sea scrolls, we might never know any of this.

[Leroy Lizard]

the thing is, the only "evidence" we have that jesus did anything supernatural or whatever is the fact that somebody said he did in a book.

Four things:

1. For a lot of people, that's good enough.
2. He must have done something to get that many to follow Him so deeply.
3. There is little to say that He didn't do them.*
4. There is no need for quotation marks around the word evidence. Whether you think it is strong evidence is a matter of opinion.

* Unless you think typing His name in lowercase letters makes for a strong argument.

[AggieTool]

Just think of how much further we'd be along technologically if it weren't for Christianity.

We'd be zipping around the universe like on Star Trek.:)

[Leroy Lizard]

Just think of how much further we'd be along technologically if it weren't for Christianity.

We wouldn't be at all, IMO.

[starclassic tama]

Whether you think it is strong evidence is a matter of opinion.


no. something written in a book is not evidence for anything other than the fact that somebody wrote a book. anyone can write a book claiming anything they want.

[Leroy Lizard]

no. something written in a book is not evidence for anything other than the fact that somebody wrote a book. anyone can write a book claiming anything they want.

Textual accounts are admitted in court as evidence all the time. Whether the evidence is strong depends on a lot of factors.

This all begs the question anyway, as the argument centers on whether the Biblical accounts state the Truth.

[SunnySooner]

I'm a Christian, first of all, so I obviously believe in an afterlife. My question for atheists is, if you don't believe in God, do you then not believe in the soul? I may get giggled at for asking this, but what do you say to all of those seemingly normal people who believe they've had an encounter with the "spirit world"? Personally, I never have, other than getting a very sad and strange "vibe", unlike anything I've ever felt before, when we visited Gettysburg. But there are literally thousands of accounts, from people the world over, who have had experiences with "ghosts". For me, I 'm sure a chunk of it is fraud, but I believe in the spirit, in the soul, and I don't claim to have all the answers to exactly what happens when we die, so the possiblity of that kind of thing is real for me. What is the atheist response to this? "Fraud", "Hooey", etc.? Do you just dismiss ALL of it? Just curious.

[JohnnyMack]

I'm a Christian, first of all, so I obviously believe in an afterlife. My question for atheists is, if you don't believe in God, do you then not believe in the soul? I may get giggled at for asking this, but what do you say to all of those seemingly normal people who believe they've had an encounter with the "spirit world"? Personally, I never have, other than getting a very sad and strange "vibe", unlike anything I've ever felt before, when we visited Gettysburg. But there are literally thousands of accounts, from people the world over, who have had experiences with "ghosts". For me, I 'm sure a chunk of it is fraud, but I believe in the spirit, in the soul, and I don't claim to have all the answers to exactly what happens when we die, so the possiblity of that kind of thing is real for me. What is the atheist response to this? "Fraud", "Hooey", etc.? Do you just dismiss ALL of it? Just curious.

I can think off the top of my hand of one group, The Brights (http://www.the-brights.net/) who are totally opposed to anything supernatural in origin. From religion to ghosts, they think everything can be explained through science.

Personally I have a hard time believing in things like haunted houses, ghosts, etc. I think the human mind is pretty powerful, it's something we don't fully understand, but I'd lean towards situations like the one you mentioned at Gettysburg being a combination of the environment and the individuals subconscious.

[goingoneight]

All I know is I don't give a shat about anything religion-related... and if that makes me an "atheist," I don't go knocking on my neighbor's door trying to convert him. I also don't try and fight or kill people because they don't believe what I do.

[JohnnyMack]

I can't think of a single culture that didn't develop spiritual beliefs from their very earliest beginnings. Even the most primitive tribes hold spiritual beliefs that dictate what they should do to survive. Again, norms and religious beliefs go hand in hand and develop simultaneously. How can you possibly disagree?

And this still doesn't remove the basic truth that you continually ignore: That modern-day atheists developed their beliefs and norms in a religious culture. No segment of our society is untouched by religion.

Try reading The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell if you haven't already. I can mail it to you if you want to borrow it.

Early religions simply didn't use religion as a moral compass. Religions were initially developed to explain that which was unexplainable. They were also used as a way to worship and pay homage to their creator. Shamans from ancient hunting tribes didn't teach its people about what was right and wrong from a moral or ethical sense, rather they were explaining how the world around them came into being (the god of the gaps) and they were teaching the members of the tribe how to attempt to placate this god.

As religions became more developed and sophisticated, some of them worked in concepts such as are found in say the ten commandments of the Judeo-Christian faith, but religion wasn't established to teach right from wrong.

[Leroy Lizard]

Try reading The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell if you haven't already. I can mail it to you if you want to borrow it.

It was assigned textbook in my comparative religion class. Read it.


Early religions simply didn't use religion as a moral compass. Religions were initially developed to explain that which was unexplainable. They were also used as a way to worship and pay homage to their creator.

And how did you pay homage to your creator? By doing certain things to please the creator. From eating your enemy to chanting in circles around a fire, these are all part of morality. Strange morality, sure. But when you place important consequences from an external being on your willingness to go along, it is no longer just a custom.

Don't participate in the fire dance? Get frowned on by your fellow tribesmen. Participation was pretty much mandatory.

In other words, religion develops very early and its only natural to think that an individual's actions will affect how their gods will treat them. These actions form the nucleus of a moral system.

It's what separates us from the animals.

And you still have yet to acknowledge my main point: That any moral or ethical sense you have developed has been largely influenced by the religious culture you experienced growing up. You can only pretend that you haven't experienced it. You would like to think that if you were completely untouched by religion that you would come out as the same ethical, responsible, and moral person you are now, but you have absolutely no way of knowing that.

[ccmike9]

If you are an atheist, who or what decides if your behavior is "good"? I guess you do yourself. I am just guessing, but I'd bet that both Hitler and Stalin both judged themselves to be good men, though they collaborated to kill some 40 or 50 million people.

I believe that I should help the poor because Jesus, whom I believe is a deity, told me too.

If I didn't believe in Jesus, I'd have a hard time figuring out why it is better to take money from my children and give it to other people whom I don't even know.

But in the end, I guess it IS easier to be "good for goodness sake" when you get to define for yourself what "good" is.

So the atheists have one on us there.

Christians - 0 Godless heathens - 1



There is an extremely large amount of work on secular ethics. This is a largely ignorant post; Hitler's stated goals were "for god" and in order to carry out "god's will." And since when does your non-belief in something make you a terrible person? They really have no connection. That would be like saying that not believing in pizza would make you an astronaut.

[ccmike9]

I'm a Christian, first of all, so I obviously believe in an afterlife. My question for atheists is, if you don't believe in God, do you then not believe in the soul? I may get giggled at for asking this, but what do you say to all of those seemingly normal people who believe they've had an encounter with the "spirit world"? Personally, I never have, other than getting a very sad and strange "vibe", unlike anything I've ever felt before, when we visited Gettysburg. But there are literally thousands of accounts, from people the world over, who have had experiences with "ghosts". For me, I 'm sure a chunk of it is fraud, but I believe in the spirit, in the soul, and I don't claim to have all the answers to exactly what happens when we die, so the possiblity of that kind of thing is real for me. What is the atheist response to this? "Fraud", "Hooey", etc.? Do you just dismiss ALL of it? Just curious.

Honestly, I see the "soul" as a combination of neural pathways that we interpret as "us." It doesn't make the concept any less important, but for me it grounds it in the here and now.

[ccmike9]

We wouldn't be at all, IMO.

I Think Galileo, Vesalius, and Harvey would beg to differ.

[ccmike9]

Four things:

1. For a lot of people, that's good enough.
2. He must have done something to get that many to follow Him so deeply.
3. There is little to say that He didn't do them.*
4. There is no need for quotation marks around the word evidence. Whether you think it is strong evidence is a matter of opinion.

* Unless you think typing His name in lowercase letters makes for a strong argument.

If you claim that someone does something important, the burden of proof is on you. No one should have to "prove you wrong." You have to provide the evidence. If I say, "Leroy Lizard, prove I am not the president of the alien planet Gratogia," I guarantee you cannot find one thing saying that I am not so.

[ccmike9]

Okay, I'm done B!@#$ing now

[starclassic tama]

i love the ridiculous argument about hitler and stalin killing people when religious wars have accounted for how many deaths throughout history?

[ccmike9]

i love the ridiculous argument about hitler and stalin killing people when religious wars have accounted for how many deaths throughout history?

I know, it's hilarious. especially given this:

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." - Adolf Hitler

And It's even funnier because Atheism isn't a belief system, it's inherently and by definition the lack of one.

[JohnnyMack]

I know, it's hilarious. especially given this:

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." - Adolf Hitler

And It's even funnier because Atheism isn't a belief system, it's inherently and by definition the lack of one.

I've always said I'll admit that Atheism was responsible for the purges in the Soviet Union as soon as the Christians admist Baptists were behind the nuking of Hiroshima.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Johnny Mack...One atheist who knows all about spreadin it

[Veritas]

I've always said I'll admit that Atheism was responsible for the purges in the Soviet Union as soon as the Christians admist Baptists were behind the nuking of Hiroshima.
I'm Christianish and I've got no problem admitting that Hiroshima was nuked by a Baptist. Now, it's not true, Edward Teller was agnostic, Oppie was an atheist...really, the only Baptist was the Pres.

Of course, I'm biased because if we hadn't nuked Hiroshima, I wouldn't be here. My grandfather's unit was among those on the board to invade...Kyosho, I think it was called...just read a book (http://www.amazon.com/Downfall-End-Imperial-Japanese-Empire/dp/0141001461) about it (you'd dig it, Mack, very interesting). Anyway, invading Japan would have been a freaking bloodbath on both sides; this isn't really up for debate.

[ccmike9]

I'm Christianish and I've got no problem admitting that Hiroshima was nuked by a Baptist. Now, it's not true, Edward Teller was agnostic, Oppie was an atheist...really, the only Baptist was the Pres.

Of course, I'm biased because if we hadn't nuked Hiroshima, I wouldn't be here. My grandfather's unit was among those on the board to invade...Kyosho, I think it was called...just read a book (http://www.amazon.com/Downfall-End-Imperial-Japanese-Empire/dp/0141001461) about it (you'd dig it, Mack, very interesting). Anyway, invading Japan would have been a freaking bloodbath on both sides; this isn't really up for debate.

I think his only point was that it's ridiculous to blame someone's actions on something if there is no real evidence of it.

[Veritas]

Mack never has more than a couple points, and that point usually is that he hates God and loves ****. ;)

[ccmike9]

Mack never has more than a couple points, and that point usually is that he hates God and loves ****. ;)


Who doesn't?.....wait a minute

[JohnnyMack]

Mack never has more than a couple points, and that point usually is that he hates God and loves ****. ;)

XOXOXOXO

[Veritas]

XOXOXOXO
Whatever. Always such a tease.

[soonerhubs]

Can a Mormon quote Rick Warren?

Oh well... here goes:
"Giving up faith in God because perversions of faith occur is as irrational as giving up sex because rape & incest occur."--RW

I respect all beliefs no matter the creed. I just thought this quote was a good one. Also to be fair, I don't believe all folks who are atheists/agnostics become such because of perversions of faith.

[Veritas]

Ah, the Purpose Driven revenue stream.

[soonerhubs]

Ah, the Purpose Driven revenue stream.

Heh! I just liked the quote. I'm not sure on the business model. :D

[Frozen Sooner]

Hi. I'm an atheist. FWIW, I've been openly discriminated against in a hiring decision because of my lack of religion (which under certain circumstances is allowable under federal law). I've even had the President of the United States say that he didn't think I could be a real citizen because of my lack of belief in God. Anymore, when IRL people talk about religion, I've learned to just be quiet--you never know when speaking your mind will come back to bite you in the ***.

If anyone seriously thinks atheists aren't discriminated against in our society, it's only because they don't see it because or numbers are so small.

[Veritas]

Shoot, count me out on that. Discriminating against atheists/agnostics in my field (software) would be like running a rap label and discriminating against blacks.

[JohnnyMack]

Hi. I'm an atheist. FWIW, I've been openly discriminated against in a hiring decision because of my lack of religion

Are you STILL mad that you didn't get that job at Chick-Fil-A? Let it go...

[Leroy Lizard]

I Think Galileo, Vesalius, and Harvey would beg to differ.

Without the Church, none of these three would have been educated in the first place.

[Leroy Lizard]

If you claim that someone does something important, the burden of proof is on you.

Sure, if it is necessary to prove something. But you are talking about people choosing to believe in something. They don't have to PROVE squat to any of us.

[Leroy Lizard]

i love the ridiculous argument about hitler and stalin killing people when religious wars have accounted for how many deaths throughout history?

In the middle ages, sure. Since then? Not so much. In fact, I cannot think of any wars committed over the past two hundred years on account of religion other than in the Middle East, where one religion's issues with violence have repeatedly surfaced.

[Leroy Lizard]

I know, it's hilarious. especially given this:

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." - Adolf Hitler.

Mein Kampf. But Mein Kampf was written mostly for public consumption (especially since he needed support of the Catholic Church) and is riddled with half-truths. None of the works that I have read from those who knew him best, including the diary of Joseph Goebbels and autobiography of Albert Speer, mention anything about Hitler being a religious person that I can recall. He talked incessantly of divine providence, but that was more of just his view that he was destined for greatness.

In other words, people talk about "God's will" all the time, but that doesn't make them religious.

[Leroy Lizard]

Hi. I'm an atheist. FWIW, I've been openly discriminated against in a hiring decision because of my lack of religion (which under certain circumstances is allowable under federal law). I've even had the President of the United States say that he didn't think I could be a real citizen because of my lack of belief in God. Anymore, when IRL people talk about religion, I've learned to just be quiet--you never know when speaking your mind will come back to bite you in the ***.

If anyone seriously thinks atheists aren't discriminated against in our society, it's only because they don't see it because or numbers are so small.

The same applies to Christians. "Bible thumpers" are discriminated against because management doesn't want people around who they fear will spout off about immorality. In our faculty search we had to dismiss one committee member because he didn't want to hire one of the applicants because of his deep religious convictions. (The applicant wasn't hired anyway, and I think religion played a role in it.)

[GKeeper316]

Without the Church, none of these three would have been educated in the first place.

only because the church had a stranglehold on education.

[Leroy Lizard]

only because the church had a stranglehold on education.

That's not true. The only other power at the time was royalty, and it had no interest in educating the population. It takes money and effort to educate, and there would have been neither without the Church' involvement.

[JohnnyMack]

It was assigned textbook in my comparative religion class. Read it.



And how did you pay homage to your creator? By doing certain things to please the creator. From eating your enemy to chanting in circles around a fire, these are all part of morality. Strange morality, sure. But when you place important consequences from an external being on your willingness to go along, it is no longer just a custom.

Don't participate in the fire dance? Get frowned on by your fellow tribesmen. Participation was pretty much mandatory.

In other words, religion develops very early and its only natural to think that an individual's actions will affect how their gods will treat them. These actions form the nucleus of a moral system.

It's what separates us from the animals.

And you still have yet to acknowledge my main point: That any moral or ethical sense you have developed has been largely influenced by the religious culture you experienced growing up. You can only pretend that you haven't experienced it. You would like to think that if you were completely untouched by religion that you would come out as the same ethical, responsible, and moral person you are now, but you have absolutely no way of knowing that.

I think you're being intentionally obtuse here in order to defend an argument in terms of which came first, mores or religion. If you can show me one, just one example of a culture that developed religion before or even alongside of its mores I will have STEP blow you at a tailgate.

And I will, have and certainly do acknowledge that I have been influenced by religion. I think there are parts of the bible that are a terrific blueprint on how one can live his or her life. I also happen to think there's some wacky **** that people today conveniently overlook because it doesn't suit their needs (most of the old testament) and I certainly don't believe in the story of an undead zombie Jew who can teleport here and there from one mystical plane to the next. And I don't believe that when you die you're gonna sit your fat *** on a cloud with cherubs and play a lute while that euro-skank singer you adore lovingly fondles your balls while I endure some Sisyphean nightmare involving anal rape from Mack Brown while I have my fingers burned off. Jesus, heaven, hell, all of these things are metaphors my friend, taking them literally is for loons. I'm about as likely to go to hell as Imperial Star Destroyers are to drop into orbit around earth this afternoon.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

So if I give money to an atheist group to put up billboards, is that tax deductible?

[JohnnyMack]

ffrf is in fact a 501c3.

[MR2-Sooner86]

I've always said I'll admit that Atheism was responsible for the purges in the Soviet Union as soon as the Christians admist Baptists were behind the nuking of Hiroshima.

Do you really want to go there? Really?

Where oh where do I count the mistakes.

1. Hiroshima was during a declaration of war against Japan.
2. Hiroshima was not done in the name of religion.
3. The Soviet Union made a move to make the country atheist.
4. The Soviet Union targeted and destroyed churches and imprisoned priest and church heads.

I go after Christians with harsh venom but even I have to standup to that bull**** comparison.

[Leroy Lizard]

I think you're being intentionally obtuse here in order to defend an argument in terms of which came first, mores or religion. If you can show me one, just one example of a culture that developed religion before or even alongside of its mores I will have STEP blow you at a tailgate.

How would that even be possible? (Not referring to STEP here.) Even if you had evidence that religion came first, you still don't know if evidence is missing that mores came first. We only have limited knowledge of these early civilizations.

And it isn't like you have offered any examples of your own.


And I will, have and certainly do acknowledge that I have been influenced by religion.

Go a little further: Your high character standards are very much the product of a religious (most likely Christian) environment.


... and I certainly don't believe in the story of an undead zombie Jew ...

You sound like a real biblical scholar.

[Sooner_Havok]

Hi. I'm an atheist. FWIW, I've been openly discriminated against in a hiring decision because of my lack of religion (which under certain circumstances is allowable under federal law). I've even had the President of the United States say that he didn't think I could be a real citizen because of my lack of belief in God. Anymore, when IRL people talk about religion, I've learned to just be quiet--you never know when speaking your mind will come back to bite you in the ***.

If anyone seriously thinks atheists aren't discriminated against in our society, it's only because they don't see it because or numbers are so small.

Pretty much how I feel. The last time I admitted to being atheist IRL was when some ****** bag tried to "witness" to me on my lunch break.

[Sooner_Havok]

Go a little further: Your high character standards are very much the product of a religious (most likely Christian) environment.


I was influenced by Christians. I heard to be good, because God wanted us to be good, then heard be good or I will go to hell. I was taught to treat everyone as I would want to be treated, but that everyone didn't include gays, and other "undesirables". I was taught hypocrisy was bad, but saw it every day....

Now I am good, not because it makes some invisible man happy, or because if I don't I will be eternally punished, but because it makes me feel good. I treat everyone with the kindness and respect, the same as I would like to be treated...

Honestly, if Jesus was to come back tomorrow, I think he would confuse most of my atheist friends for Christians and many of my Christian acquaintances (not all of them, some are genuinely good people) as the godless heathens strictly on their actions. Throw in knowledge of what the bible actually says, and my atheist friends seem to get another leg up.

[Leroy Lizard]

Honestly, if Jesus was to come back tomorrow, I think he would confuse most of my atheist friends for Christians...

Not even close.


Throw in knowledge of what the bible actually says, and my atheist friends seem to get another leg up

You have either never read The Bible or you are falling for the myth that being a Christian is all about being nice to people. Being a Christian means serving the Lord above all else, and the Bible is very clear on that.

I agree that many (if not most) Christians are probably not saved, but it is foolhardy to think that atheists are viewed any better by God. (At least, according to Scripture.)

[Sooner_Havok]

Not even close.

Right, cause you know, treating people with kindness, dignity, and respect is totally not what Jesus was all about. He was totally all about getting **** faced drunk, getting stoned, sleeping with as many chicks as you can, and being a total prick to everyone.

GO TEAM JESUS!

[starclassic tama]

here's a question for you leroy. according to the bible, you can be a mass murderer and do all these horrible things, but as long as you ask jesus into your heart and believe you can be forgiven and still get into heaven. but a person could be athiest and morally just about perfect, and still go to hell. why would god sit up there and worry about whether or not people he created believe in him? much less, why would that be the only thing he cared about with regards to sending you to heaven or hell?

[Leroy Lizard]

Right, cause you know, treating people with kindness, dignity, and respect is totally not what Jesus was all about. He was totally all about getting **** faced drunk, getting stoned, sleeping with as many chicks as you can, and being a total prick to everyone.

GO TEAM JESUS!

Scripture is very clear: You must ask (meaningfully) for forgiveness for your sins and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Without that, you stand in no better grace with God than Heinrich Himmler.

There is a misconception out there that being a Christian is defined by how well you treat others. Not true.


according to the bible, you can be a mass murderer and do all these horrible things, but as long as you ask jesus into your heart and believe you can be forgiven and still get into heaven.

This is true.


but a person could be athiest and morally just about perfect, and still go to hell.

This is true as well.


why would god sit up there and worry about whether or not people he created believe in him? much less, why would that be the only thing he cared about with regards to sending you to heaven or hell?

Believing in God amounts to very little in His eyes. You must not only believe in Him, you must also serve Him. (Just to be clear.)

Why? Perhaps a true theologian can give you some ideas. But I can guess: God considers your time here on Earth relatively meaningless in comparison to the eternal life he has prepared for you. Sure, WE consider the horrible things that we see around us as truly terrible because in our limited vision we don't see the bigger picture, which is eternal. We have elevated "being nice" above that of "serving God" because in our myopic view being nice to people around us is more important.

We shake our heads that our teenagers consider the needs of their friends more important than the needs of their family. In some cases, they will even kill parents to meet the needs of their friends. In God's eyes, we are like teenagers.

Since we interact with people around us more often, we care more about what they feel. True Christians develop a strong relationship with God and understand that the struggles of mere mortals is secondary in importance. This is why Christians can oppose abortion even in cases where the life of the mother is endangered.

[Chuck Bao]

I don't know if social mores or religion came first. Maybe it is like the eternal chicken or egg question.

The Greeks had Zeus seducing and abducting the youth Ganymede, the most attractive of mortals, and then making him his cup bearer on Mount Olympus.

Meanwhile, the nearby Egyptians were writing their Book of the Dead and one of their trick questions in the afterlife was whether the newly deceased male had ever layed down with a man. And, the obvious answer was no, never. It is not clear whether lying works or not in their version of the afterlife.

In the Americas, it seems just as confusing. The Incas were pretty ruthless bunch and totally wiped out a civilization that was pretty much open-minded about that sex thing. We only know this because of their erotic pottery.

The Mayans were also pretty open-minded about these things and the upper class had male slaves to service their men until they were ready to get married. No need for unwanted preggers, I guess. Then, the Aztecs came along and put a stop to it. They'd execute anyone found doing that buggery thing.

But, you gotta hand style points to the Mayans and Aztecs for their executions and human sacrifices. More babies and eventually more sacrifices would create a greater pool of blood and that would keep the gods satisfied and the universe in alignment. Fornication was probably really a secondary issue with them.

[JohnnyMack]

How would that even be possible? (Not referring to STEP here.) Even if you had evidence that religion came first, you still don't know if evidence is missing that mores came first. We only have limited knowledge of these early civilizations.

And it isn't like you have offered any examples of your own.



Go a little further: Your high character standards are very much the product of a religious (most likely Christian) environment.



You sound like a real biblical scholar.

1. Every culture on the planet is my example. Every one of them. Ever.

2. While I was exposed to religion, it was never something that was a big part of my family while I was growing up. I wasn't raised in any kind of strict religious household; my parents were the definition of Easter/Christmas church goers, so I'm not convinced you're accurate in your assessment of my upbringing being driven by a religious environment.

3. I'm not a biblical scholar because the bible is a giant metaphor, it isn't real.

[Chuck Bao]

The discussion moved on since my last post. But, I do wonder about the Baptist belief in "once saved, always saved." No need to confess your sins because you already did that. Then the question is whether you were really saved the first time if you go on to do some horrible stuff. I think that is one of my biggest stumbling blocks. I mean, was it real the spiritual feelings I had as a religious teenager?

[Leroy Lizard]

1. Every culture on the planet is my example. Every one of them. Ever.

Saying it repeatedly doesn't make it true.


2. While I was exposed to religion, it was never something that was a big part of my family while I was growing up. I wasn't raised in any kind of strict religious household; my parents were the definition of Easter/Christmas church goers, so I'm not convinced you're accurate in your assessment of my upbringing being driven by a religious environment.

This is a Christian society, regardless of whether your family practiced.

I don't care for the blues. Never listened to the blues much. But any rock songs I write will probably be heavily influence by the blues. It's hard to avoid.


3. I'm not a biblical scholar because the bible is a giant metaphor, it isn't real.

So much for people like Joseph Campbell.

[Leroy Lizard]

The discussion moved on since my last post. But, I do wonder about the Baptist belief in "once saved, always saved."

I have no idea what they mean by this. Could you be misinterpreting? After all, I seriously doubt that Baptists believe that they can turn their back on God and all is good because they once worshiped him. I don't know any denomination that believes that.

[TUSooner]

Scripture is very clear: You must ask (meaningfully) for forgiveness for your sins and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Without that, you stand in no better grace with God than Heinrich Himmler.

There is a misconception out there that being a Christian is defined by how well you treat others. Not true. [ :confused: :eek: ]

****
True Christians develop a strong relationship with God and understand that the struggles of mere mortals is secondary in importance. This is why Christians can oppose abortion even in cases where the life of the mother is endangered.

I used to buy that narrow, perverse, pseudo-fundamenatist cant. Now I see it as an example of the "muslimization" of Christianity. That is, it places rules and creeds and "believing" ahead of compassion and mercy.

One could just as well say....
True Muslims develop a strong relationship with God and understand that the struggles of mere mortals is secondary in importance. This is why Muslims can oppress infidels and kill them when necessary to protect our righteousness.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Recall the parable of the sheep and the goats (Hint, the distinguishing factor was how they TREATED OTHERS.) Or the one about about the self-righteous pharisee and the repentant publican.

Sure, Christians don't cater to the whims of the world, but to say that you can have this awesome "relationship with God" while treating your fellow humans with coldness is the worst form of self-righteousnes. It's sick (in the vomity way).

[JohnnyMack]

Saying it repeatedly doesn't make it true.



This is a Christian society, regardless of whether your family practiced.

I don't care for the blues. Never listened to the blues much. But any rock songs I write will probably be heavily influence by the blues. It's hard to avoid.



So much for people like Joseph Campbell.

1. You have zero evidence to the contrary.

2. I have plenty of jewish friends, are they part of your christian empire too?

3. Joseph Campbell was a christian? Really? You just continually make **** up to back up an argument you're losing. Just stop and go masturbate to your euro-skank.

[OUMallen]

I don't know if social mores or religion came first. Maybe it is like the eternal chicken or egg question.


Social mores. Even chimps, apes have social mores and somewhat complicated societal structure.

[Ike]

Social mores. Even chimps, apes have social mores and somewhat complicated societal structure.

Chimps and apes prolly have religion too. The-Big-Poop-Flinger-in-the-Sky.

[Leroy Lizard]

I used to buy that narrow, perverse, pseudo-fundamenatist cant. Now I see it as an example of the "muslimization" of Christianity. That is, it places rules and creeds and "believing" ahead of compassion and mercy.

God does not make "being good to others" mutually exclusive to "serving God." There is no commandment to being cruel to others. In fact, being good (as we understand it) is a way of demonstrating that a Christian is living up to His principles.

But being good is not acceptable in lieu of serving God. You cannot say "while I never accepted you as my Lord and Savior, I treated people pretty well so what's the problem?" It doesn't work like that.


Sure, Christians don't cater to the whims of the world, but to say that you can have this awesome "relationship with God" while treating your fellow humans with coldness is the worst form of self-righteousnes.

Again, I never said that. What I said was that treating other people nicely is not sufficient to becoming a Christian or to being saved.

And I have a feeling you knew that, but why ruin a good retort?

[Chuck Bao]

I have no idea what they mean by this. Could you be misinterpreting? After all, I seriously doubt that Baptists believe that they can turn their back on God and all is good because they once worshiped him. I don't know any denomination that believes that.

You really do not have a clear understanding of the Baptist faith.

Wikipedia seems to explain it quite well here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Once_saved,_always_saved

This is the best quote of that article.


In a chapter entitled "For Those Who Stop Believing", Charles Stanley says, "The Bible clearly teaches that God's love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand." A little later, Stanley also writes: "You and I are not saved because we have an enduring faith. We are saved because at a moment in time we expressed faith in our enduring Lord"

[Leroy Lizard]

1. You have zero evidence to the contrary.

You provided no evidence to support your claim. You just said "every culture." Truth by blatant assertion.


2. I have plenty of jewish friends, are they part of your christian empire too?

Jews, Muslims, Christians... whatever. They are all part of the religious influence you are trying to diminish.


3. Joseph Campbell was a christian? Really?

Gee, I don't recall saying anything like that. Hmmm.... let me go back.

Nope, never said it.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

You know, I could have pulled up the religion thread from two months ago with the same arguments and saved you guys a lot of typing:)

[Leroy Lizard]

You really do not have a clear understanding of the Baptist faith.

Wikipedia seems to explain it quite well here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Once_saved,_always_saved

This is the best quote of that article.

But it also says this:


Calvinists also believe that all who are born again and justified before God necessarily and inexorably proceed to sanctification. Failure to proceed to sanctification in their view is considered by some as evidence that the person in question was never truly saved to begin with.

Not sure if Baptists follow this principle (my pastor has never mentioned this), but it changes the context a lot.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

So no buttsecks?

[Leroy Lizard]

No buttsecks.

[Sooner_Havok]

But it also says this:



Not sure if Baptists follow this principle (my pastor has never mentioned this), but it changes the context a lot.

So are you Baptist or Calvinist?

[Leroy Lizard]

Baptist.

[TUSooner]

You know, I could have pulled up the religion thread from two months ago with the same arguments and saved you guys a lot of typing:)

WHY DIDN'T YOU STOP ME !!???

:rolleyes:
:D

[Leroy Lizard]

You know, I could have pulled up the religion thread from two months ago with the same arguments and saved you guys a lot of typing:)

You mean, we didn't settle the issue the last time?

Come now!

[adoniijahsooner]

I'm late entering this debate, but how do you justify, preach, or believe nothing? How do athiests explain such unthinkable evils as molestation of children, rapes, and other unholy behavior? Also, how do they explain heavenly acts of kindness, such as someone sharing their food with the less fortunate, people giving their lives to protect others, and folks giving up earthly comforts to travel to a country to help those in need? Where does thing such as love, compassion, sacrifice, hate, envy, jealousy, and other unseen emotion originate? I'm guessing the athiest has absolutely no idea.

[Serge Ibaka]

I'm late entering this debate, but how do you justify, preach, or believe nothing? How do athiests explain such unthinkable evils as molestation of children, rapes, and other unholy behavior? Also, how do they explain heavenly acts of kindness, such as someone sharing their food with the less fortunate, people giving their lives to protect others, and folks giving up earthly comforts to travel to a country to help those in need? Where does thing such as love, compassion, sacrifice, hate, envy, jealousy, and other unseen emotion originate? I'm guessing the athiest has absolutely no idea.

These "unseen" emotions originate in mind. Humans are very clever, and they're capable of very much.

In fact, I think that the notion that all human-goodness comes from God and all human-meanness comes from the Devil is de-humanizing. Can we really be mad at the Nazis since all of their mass-murdin' was simply at the prodding of Lucifer?

What fun is religion if its world-view defines humans as beings incapable of emotions, and all of their feelings and actions (both good and bad) are the cause of higher and more-powerful beings.

I give us more credit.

[Leroy Lizard]

These "unseen" emotions originate in mind. Humans are very clever, and they're capable of very much.

In fact, I think that the notion that all human-goodness comes from God and all human-meanness comes from the Devil is de-humanizing. Can we really be mad at the Nazis since all of their mass-murdin' was simply at the prodding of Lucifer?

Most Christians believe in free will.

Nice shot at it, though.

[Serge Ibaka]

Most Christians believe in free will.

Nice shot at it, though.

Thanks.

But srsly, the dude I was responding to was sort of suggesting otherwise--"How do athiests explain such unthinkable evils as molestation of children, rapes, and other unholy behavior?" I was responding to him and not "most Christians."

[Chuck Bao]

I think that you are guessing wrong. There are many non-religious groups and NGOs doing some tremendous things in trying to alleviate some of the suffering in the world. Doctors without Borders is one of them. You really shouldn't automatically discount the compassion of atheists, like I am not going to discount the very positive impact of numerous schools, universities and hospitals set up around the world by the Catholics and Baptists and other Christian faiths.

[adoniijahsooner]

These "unseen" emotions originate in mind. Humans are very clever, and they're capable of very much.

In fact, I think that the notion that all human-goodness comes from God and all human-meanness comes from the Devil is de-humanizing. Can we really be mad at the Nazis since all of their mass-murdin' was simply at the prodding of Lucifer?

What fun is religion if its world-view defines humans as beings incapable of emotions, and all of their feelings and actions (both good and bad) are the cause of higher and more-powerful beings.

I give us more credit.

The bible does say that men are drawn away by their own lust and enticed. I just believe that there are influences over much of our behavior. I also believe in the free-will of men, but also that God is sovereign.

[adoniijahsooner]

I think that you are guessing wrong. There are many non-religious groups and NGOs doing some tremendous things in trying to alleviate some of the suffering in the world. Doctors without Borders is one of them. You really shouldn't automatically discount the compassion of atheists, like I am not going to discount the very positive impact of numerous schools, universities and hospitals set up around the world by the Catholics and Baptists and other Christian faiths.

I didnt discount anyone compassion, nor do i believe that an athiest is separate from God, the bible says, "in him we move and live, and have or being." My daughter can say you are not my father, but how true would that be?

[Leroy Lizard]

I think that you are guessing wrong. There are many non-religious groups and NGOs doing some tremendous things in trying to alleviate some of the suffering in the world. Doctors without Borders is one of them. You really shouldn't automatically discount the compassion of atheists, like I am not going to discount the very positive impact of numerous schools, universities and hospitals set up around the world by the Catholics and Baptists and other Christian faiths.

I'm not sure anyone was suggesting otherwise.

[starclassic tama]

I'm late entering this debate, but how do you justify, preach, or believe nothing? I'm guessing the athiest has absolutely no idea.

"right" and "wrong" have significant evolutionary significance. often times when animals fight, they stop short of killing one another because on some fundamental level they know that it is not beneficial to the greater good of the species to kill one another without proper reason, like for food. not because they believe god will be mad at them. it is not beneficial to our species to kill one another. monogamy in humans can be explained much in the same way. it may seem beneficial to spread your seed around as much as animals do, but human beings require much more care and support during their upbringing to be viable, therefore monogamy makes sense in humans.

another question i have that i'd like for a christian to take a stab at. you believe that god created me. my brain is not physically capable of believing, trust me. i have tried and tried again, and i'd love to be able to be a believer and think that eternity is just going to be hunky dorey. but i am not able to. so why would god create me knowing that there is no way i could end up in his kingdom? not very nice of him.

[Serge Ibaka]

"right" and "wrong" have significant evolutionary significance. often times when animals fight, they stop short of killing one another because on some fundamental level they know that it is not beneficial to the greater good of the species to kill one another without proper reason, like for food. not because they believe god will be mad at them. it is not beneficial to our species to kill one another. monogamy in humans can be explained much in the same way. it may seem beneficial to spread your seed around as much as animals do, but human beings require much more care and support during their upbringing to be viable, therefore monogamy makes sense in humans.

Right track.


another question i have that i'd like for a christian to take a stab at. you believe that god created me. my brain is not physically capable of believing, trust me. i have tried and tried again, and i'd love to be able to be a believer and think that eternity is just going to be hunky dorey. but i am not able to. so why would god create me knowing that there is no way i could end up in his kingdom? not very nice of him.

Yep. He also makes some people gay. And he makes some people grow up in societies dominated by non-Christian world-views where they are easily infected by false doctrines.

Furthermore, thanks to God that I was born white and American and privileged instead of poor and brown and Mexican. That would have sucked.

[Leroy Lizard]

"right" and "wrong" have significant evolutionary significance. often times when animals fight, they stop short of killing one another because on some fundamental level they know that it is not beneficial to the greater good of the species to kill one another without proper reason, like for food. not because they believe god will be mad at them. it is not beneficial to our species to kill one another.

You have a very utilitarian view of right versus wrong.

And we don't know why animals stop short of killing each other. In fact, I would venture to say that animals stop fighting once the issue is settled. They probably don't have any concept of actual killing, which explains why they will eat animals alive and why they stop fighting once they no longer need to.

[Leroy Lizard]

Yep. He also makes some people gay. And he makes some people grow up in societies dominated by non-Christian world-views where they are easily infected by false doctrines.

Furthermore, thanks to God that I was born white and American and privileged instead of poor and brown and Mexican. That would have sucked.

I think God truly believes that your parents probably had a lot more to do with your being born white and American than anything He did.

[Serge Ibaka]

You have a very utilitarian view of right versus wrong.

And we don't know why animals stop short of killing each other. In fact, I would venture to say that animals stop fighting once the issue is settled. They probably don't have any concept of actual killing, which explains why they will eat animals alive and why they stop fighting once they no longer need to.

I agree. But he was at least right in suggesting the social-evolution of ethics. The existence of social-codes (and notions of "goodness" and rightness) can be explained in more ways than just "God did it."

[Serge Ibaka]

I think God truly believes that your parents probably had a lot more to do with your being born white and American than anything He did.

Then God doesn't really do much. How lazy!

[MR2-Sooner86]

:pop:

[JohnnyMack]

I'm late entering this debate, but how do you justify, preach, or believe nothing? How do athiests explain such unthinkable evils as molestation of children, rapes, and other unholy behavior? Also, how do they explain heavenly acts of kindness, such as someone sharing their food with the less fortunate, people giving their lives to protect others, and folks giving up earthly comforts to travel to a country to help those in need? Where does thing such as love, compassion, sacrifice, hate, envy, jealousy, and other unseen emotion originate? I'm guessing the athiest has absolutely no idea.

Do you think those emotions emanate from religion or spirituality or are they innate? Also are these emotions reserved only for humans? I for one don't think they are. I think the human brain has evolved and developed the ability to internalize such feelings and has spent many generations learning how to compartmentalize these feelings and assign them to the proper locale in the brain when extraneous variables trigger these emotions.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1223227/Is-haunting-picture-proof-chimps-really-DO-grieve.html

[Leroy Lizard]

I agree. But he was at least right in suggesting the social-evolution of ethics. The existence of social-codes (and notions of "goodness" and rightness) can be explained in more ways than just "God did it."

"God did it" is not my argument either.


Then God doesn't really do much. How lazy!

Oooh, he called God lazy. Oh, how will I ever recover from this slight? :rolleyes:

[Serge Ibaka]

"God did it" is not my argument either.


I know. I was extending upon starclassic's post and his response to adoniijah.

[adoniijahsooner]

"right" and "wrong" have significant evolutionary significance. often times when animals fight, they stop short of killing one another because on some fundamental level they know that it is not beneficial to the greater good of the species to kill one another without proper reason, like for food. not because they believe god will be mad at them. it is not beneficial to our species to kill one another. monogamy in humans can be explained much in the same way. it may seem beneficial to spread your seed around as much as animals do, but human beings require much more care and support during their upbringing to be viable, therefore monogamy makes sense in humans.

another question i have that i'd like for a christian to take a stab at. you believe that god created me. my brain is not physically capable of believing, trust me. i have tried and tried again, and i'd love to be able to be a believer and think that eternity is just going to be hunky dorey. but i am not able to. so why would god create me knowing that there is no way i could end up in his kingdom? not very nice of him.

The questions you ask should be put to the christians you see on TBN, if you are looking for someone to make God seem as though He owes you an explanation on why you cannot believe. The bible says.....



Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, why has thou made me thus?


What if some did not believe? Does their unbelief make the word of God of none effect? God forbid! Let Him be true and everyman a liar.

In my mind, you can get on TV and persuade the world that there is no God, but He will still exists against your unbelief.

[adoniijahsooner]

Do you think those emotions emanate from religion or spirituality or are they innate? Also are these emotions reserved only for humans? I for one don't think they are. I think the human brain has evolved and developed the ability to internalize such feelings and has spent many generations learning how to compartmentalize these feelings and assign them to the proper locale in the brain when extraneous variables trigger these emotions.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1223227/Is-haunting-picture-proof-chimps-really-DO-grieve.html

I have a close friend who is agnostic, but he is good young man. Now, he was raised catholic; is it possible that the lessons he learned in sunday school have become apart of his soul? The very things he deny may also be the reason he does good things.

Im no scientist, but there is no real comparison between humans and animals. Our bellies can be full, but we will continue to eat. We can have a lovely wife, and still bang someone else. We lie when there is no reason to. We get angry. We covet. We kill, not for survival, but to satisfy some inner sickness inside of us. We do things that a chimp could never imagine. A woman drowns her five children in the bathtub, why? What would Darwin and all the high minded scientists have to say about that?

[JohnnyMack]

I have a close friend who is agnostic, but he is good young man. Now, he was raised catholic; is it possible that the lessons he learned in sunday school have become apart of his soul? The very things he deny may also be the reason he does good things.

Im no scientist, but there is no real comparison between humans and animals. Our bellies can be full, but we will continue to eat. We can have a lovely wife, and still bang someone else. We lie when there is no reason to. We get angry. We covet. We kill, not for survival, but to satisfy some inner sickness inside of us. We do things that a chimp could never imagine. A woman drowns her five children in the bathtub, why? What would Darwin and all the high minded scientists have to say about that?

My point about animals having a basic set of emotions is that is evidence that we are simply a more evolved version of our primate cousins. Emotion isn't unique to humans. I will agree that we have a more developed and fleshed out set of emotions to deal with, but you're trying to get me to say that self awareness is somehow gifted from a deity, which I won't. I think it's a natural progression of evolution.

As for the lady who drowns her children, why can't she just be crazy? Why does it have to be something imparted on her by what you'd call the devil? And we can keep that fallacy spinning by asking, why did your god allow it to happen?

The Holocaust: Because God needs a nap too.

[OhU1]

Im no scientist, but there is no real comparison between humans and animals.

The first part of your statement leads to the 2nd. Humans are animals in every way. Animals with very highly evolved brains. Scientists would not agree with you. Pastor Bob, perhaps he would.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Personally, religion didn't teach me any morals. If anything it's just my own common sense (and I use that term loosely).

For instance, I think dueling should come back. Is it murder? Yes but it would settle many things. Instead of a presidential nomination process in the parties the guys just go out and duel. The winner will be the nomination of whatever party.

I'm also against abortion 100% but I'm 100% for the killing of babies up to three years old. Why? Fetuses don't scream while you're trying to watch a movie or in a restaurant with a date.

I'm all for lowering the age of consent down to 13. Why? Well, do you like to eat a cookie fresh out of the oven or do you like for it to sit on the counter a while?

Everybody should own a gun and not just any gun but high powered assault rifle. Would we have any mass shootings in public? No, because if you tried a million armed citizens would blow your *** away.

Recycling is for the weak and littering rules. Where did we get the material to make the stuff we throw away? Did it come from space? What's that? We got the materials from the Earth and now we're returning it to the Earth? This even includes oil? Imagine that!

Prostitution makes for a much better 21st birthday and bachelor party. Besides, going out, finding a girl, and date raping said girl is just too much work. Besides, have you seen the price of roofies? It's ridiculous.


Jesus will probably say I'm wrong but I really don't care. Jesus is not my lord and savior, The Duke is, and HE WILL rise again.

[Leroy Lizard]

So now that we have animals emoting and MR2 killing babies, can we shut this thread down? It's starting to get a bit silly.

[Crucifax Autumn]

I thought it was finally getting good.

[Leroy Lizard]

I thought it was finally getting good.

Here.

http://www.maxim.com/

Now that Crucifax is set up, how about locking the thread?

[Crucifax Autumn]

MAxim is really rather lacking in the baby killing department.

[SoonerInKCMO]

Athiesm = the ultimate manifestation of human selfishness.

First of all, it's atheism - I've noticed that you always spell it incorrectly.

Secondly, I just don't understand this sentiment. Here we have a group of people, Christians, who claim that there is this guy in the sky that created anything and everything that we have or ever will experience. He's omnipotent. Omnipresent. Omniscient. One bad-*** dude. They tell us that everything happens for a reason. He has a plan for all of us. And He being the perfect creator that He is, the plan is perfect as well.

"Not my will but His" they say if something happens that puts a crimp in our Earthly plans. Yet, when something really bad happens, we see these same Christians coming here and anywhere else and ask all of us to pray for them. "Pray that the cancer is cured". "Pray that the stroke doesn't permanently disable him." Etc., etc., ad infinitum. What is prayer? When in this guise, it's asking Him to alter his plan. His 'perfect' plan... 'perfect' that is until you don't like it. Sure, it's perfect when something good is happening or the bad is happening to someone else... but when the **** hits the fan you think you can get Him to change His mind if only you and enough of your buddies plead with Him to change this formerly perfect plan. How could one be more selfish than to think that his desires should trump the perfect plan of the all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful creator of the universe?

[Leroy Lizard]

First of all, it's atheism - I've noticed that you always spell it incorrectly.

Do you know how many times atheists write Jesus' name in lowercase?

I don't know. But I'm sure it's a lot.

The rest of your argument is, like, shallow.

[SoonerInKCMO]

Do you know how many times atheists write Jesus' name in lowercase?

I don't know. But I'm sure it's a lot.

The rest of your argument is, like, shallow.

Does the fact that some atheists write jesus rather than Jesus make athiest the correct spelling? No. Not that I expect anything different from you; you consistently make irrelevant points when attempting to refute anyone else's statements.

As for your statement regarding the rest of my post, you're simply wrong. Christians in one moment will tell you that God's plan is perfect; later they'll ask him to change it. Two fundamental tenets - He has the perfect plan and He answers prayers - are logically inconsistent.

[JohnnyMack]

Teleporting zombie jew carpenter doesn't need to be capitalized either.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Should I capitalize the name I gave to my penis?

[soonerscuba]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXThbqU0dw4

For the atheists, the people not offended by much of anything, and those not at work.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs705.snc4/62518_427662645807_557345807_5410713_2514334_n.jpg
Happy Rosh Hashana & Yom Kippur 5771.

[Leroy Lizard]

Does the fact that some atheists write jesus rather than Jesus make athiest the correct spelling?

So why are you crying over the spelling of "atheist." This is an Internet message board. If you're that uptight, may I suggest another hobby?


As for your statement regarding the rest of my post, you're simply wrong. Christians in one moment will tell you that God's plan is perfect; later they'll ask him to change it. Two fundamental tenets - He has the perfect plan and He answers prayers - are logically inconsistent.

Answer: There is a difference between a plan and a script (something about free will comes to mind).

I can plan the perfect wedding. That doesn't mean that later the attendees won't be praying for me to throw a drunken Crucifax out.