Heisman Trust seems likely to take back Reggie Bush's Heisman

[ouflak]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news;_ylt=ArFtCqCf38VFlqsIKmFbuXk5nYcB?slug=ys-bushheisman090710

Hmmm...

[Soonermagik]

He went from being one of the greatest to ever play there to a black eye to the program.

Had he never tried to screw his agent this would have never happened. He has no one to blame but himself.

[oumartin]

I don't like it. Regardless of whether or not he was paid he was the best player in college that year.

[texaspokieokie]

don't care whether or not they take it away.

[MyT Oklahoma]

Bush was both a cheater and a liar. Serves him right to be stripped of his Heisman. To let him keep it would be to cheapen everybody else's Heisman.

P.S. I thought Vince Young had a better year that year but at least Young has a National Championship right to show for his efforts.

[Boomer.....]

:mack: Give it to Vince!

[Okie35]

I don't like it. Regardless of whether or not he was paid he was the best player in college that year.

Same way I feel.

[Okie35]

Bush was both a cheater and a liar. Serves him right to be stripped of his Heisman. To let him keep it would be to cheapen everybody else's Heisman.

P.S. I thought Vince Young had a better year that year but at least Young has a National Championship right to show for his efforts.

So, out of the 75 years of the Heisman you truly believe no other players took perks, haha.

[Pigface1]

I don't like it. Regardless of whether or not he was paid he was the best player in college that year.

I think VY was, but I agree, taking the trophy is busch league (no pun intended).

[Pigface1]

Heisman Trophies allowed to keep:

Reggie Bush: 0

OJ: 1

[Caboose]

Same way I feel.

But factually incorrect. The Heisman is for the most outstanding college football player. College football players are required to be amateurs. Bush was being compensated for playing football and was therefore a professional and not an amateur and therefore not a college football player.

[Okie35]

But factually incorrect. The Heisman is for the most outstanding college football player. College football players are required to be amateurs. Bush was being compensated for playing football and was therefore a professional and not an amateur and therefore not a college football player.

Well chalk that up w/ the other players that did it. He was just the only one caught.

[OKC-SLC]

Heisman Trophies allowed to keep:

Reggie Bush: 0

OJ: 1

heh.

[OKC-SLC]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news;_ylt=ArFtCqCf38VFlqsIKmFbuXk5nYcB?slug=ys-bushheisman090710

Hmmm...

I think this is good for the Heisman Trophy to separate itself from his behavior. Not that there aren't others who might deserve the same fate, but at least they are willing to say it's not ok to do that.

[badger]

So, out of the 75 years of the Heisman you truly believe no other players took perks, haha.

It was after Billy Sims' Heisman year, but Switzer - who noted that the statute of limitation has long passed - said he asked Billy what it would take to get him to return for one more season after winning the Heisman. "Fifteen hundred dollars," was Sims' answer, he said. Done, Switzer said.

I'm sure $1,500 was more money back then, but it still pales in comparison to what Reggie did. Plus, this allegedly happened after the Heisman season, not during. :D

[Jacie]

As bad as what the Bush family did, they are victims too, though not as much as $UC and all the fans. I know, given Reggie's NFL payday it is hard to feel sorry for them. But they didn't send their son to college thinking how much they could screw the system. Before the payoffs, the gifts, the house, the plane rides and all began, they were just another struggling family whose son had an opportunity to play football in exchange for free tuition, room and board, and hopefully make it to the professional ranks. That they succumbed to temptation says more about who they were dealing with than them.

The devils in all of this are Michael Michaels, Lloyd Lake and Mike Ornstein. They were the ones who threw money and perks at the Bush family, knowing they would not refuse. Better people than the Bush family have fallen prey to smooth talkers with deep pockets.

Unless you've been offered an illegal inducement on par with what the Bush family was given, and had never really enjoyed the fruits of our great society before, it would be impossible for you to say you would not accept a nice home to live in rent free, take that trip to see your son play when you could not otherwise have done so, and see him get new clothes to wear, or have a car to drive. Yes, the gifts to Reggie and his parents were illegal, according to the NCAA (and aren't the people who run that organization the biggest collection of saints on the planet?), but in their eyes, they were simply getting a few bites of the pie early, not really taking anything they would not eventually receive.

Strictly speaking, the people being punished, the aforementioned $UC and associated fanbase, plus the current players, were not the ones who did anything wrong, yet they are the ones paying the price. Taking back the Heisman is nothing more than society demanding justice where there really is no recourse. Reggie can pretty much pay for any damages or penalties to him and his family now. All the rest of us can do is throw barbs and hate him and his Super Bowl ring.

Reggie should have said "no" and not taken a thing. But the devil was whispering in his ear that he could have it all beginning right that moment, that it was his right, that a lot of other people were making out like bandits watching him run while all he had was a dorm room and cafeteria food. He was in L.A., where copious consumption was everywhere. Little wonder this happened, given he was being praised and fawned over by everyone around him. Who wouldn't feel entitled?

So now he has to return the only piece of recoverable hardware there is and he probably doesn't mind getting the damn thing out of the house anyway. Yeah, we showed him!

[TexasLidig8r]

:mack: Give it to Vince!

We dont want it.

Throw it in the Hudson.

[S.PadreIsl.Sooner]

We dont want it.

Throw it in the Hudson.

Actually, Mack does want it. Already said it.

[Herr Scholz]

VY already said he wouldn't take it. Time to move on.

[Caboose]

Well chalk that up w/ the other players that did it. He was just the only one caught.

Bizarre logic. Holding takes place on almost every play, so if Florida State breaks off an 80 yard TD on the first play of the game next week with an obvious hold that gets flagged by the official.. would you think that they should just let Florida State have it anyway?

If there is no penalty for cheating what would deter cheating?

[badger]

We dont want it.

Throw it in the Hudson.

We feel the same about the 2004 title that SC forcibly vacated. Ah, how bout that, a little common ground for Sooners and Whorns. Is this the start of a more friendly, less hostile Red River Rivalry? :)


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:mad: eff no. eff texas!

[StoopTroup]

Actually....I believe how these guys live their lives does matter and just because Reggie and his Family got help from some unsavory folks and got through it unscathed doesn't make it right and at this point the NCAA and the Heisman Committee will either allow all of it....or none of it.

OJ's Trophy is still there because he either played by the rules or didn't get caught. What he did off the field later in life for some will never be forgiven and for others it will be a life that was wasted as although he was never convicted...he never turned his life around and overcame not only the obstacles before him...he failed tp pay his debts like a Man and continued to act like a person of priveledge instead of a decent Father who was lucky to be free to walk the streets instead of a guy that beat a Double Homocide Trial.

Reggie and OJ are two separate things to me.

The University is admitting their role....Reggie should too IMO.

What Occurred to Mike Balogun is something that would seem to have been a situation that the NCAA might want to give a whole lot less credence to than Reggie's situation.

Reggie skated to the NFL before anything could happen to him and Balgun had to fight for everything. Things like this are why I will never side with guys like Reggie. He continues to live a life of entitlement without regard to his actions as a Student athlete. I say....pull his Trophy. That's the least of what should happen to him unless we want to see more of this.

Like Switzer tried to tell the NCAA back in the day....you better change the rules so we can help these kids some or your going to become a police state. It's 2010 and the NCAA still needs more deputies.

[47straight]

VY already said he wouldn't take it. Time to move on.

Tell your coach.

[badger]

Regardless of family financial situations, Reggie and his family knew the rules. They and others can try to justify it saying that those rules are for the school and not for them, or say that they were forced to break the rules because they didn't have money and he was making money for the school and for the NCAA, but it doesn't change the fact that they broke the rules and breaking rules involves consequences.

If their goal was getting financial security during and after Bush's college playing days, then, well, those consequences really shouldn't matter, should they? If money is what mattered to Bush and his family as opposed to ensuring his college standing and eligibility were never in question, as their actions seemed to suggest, then giving up the Heisman should really be of no concern.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Bush was both a cheater and a liar. Serves him right to be stripped of his Heisman. To let him keep it would be to cheapen everybody else's Heisman.

^^^ This!

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Heisman Trophies allowed to keep:

Reggie Bush: 0

OJ: 1
OJ's difference was that it was never shown that he took illegal inducements while in college...(heh, just read Switzer's book) but still, he is still seen as as amateur. Bush has proven he wasn't.

No OJ just killed two people as an adult away from football. I don't see that OJ should lose his Heisman, be reviled, yes, lose trophy for non-football, no.

[agoo758]

"We require college athletes to be amatuers," says the NCAA which is full of people making six to seven figures annually.

[MyT Oklahoma]

So, out of the 75 years of the Heisman you truly believe no other players took perks, haha.

When anyone else gets caught like Bush did, then ask me. :D

[badger]

Yes, football makes a lot of money for the NCAA and schools, but consider:

Consider Title IX, a federally-mandated law that requires equal athletic opportunities for men and women, which the NCAA and every cash cow football school is subjected to.

Schools are required by federal law to be Title IX compliant, which requires them to use some of their football money to support non-revenue sports for women to balance out the revenue men's sports, and also support non-revenue men's sports too.

Schools are also required by the NCAA to have their football players on track to receive a degree and have a certain level of them graduate. Student-athletes MUST have a declared major by their junior years.

Yes, they make money off these kids, these amateur athletes, but it's not like schools are just raking it in without strings attached to how they spend it and can continue to make it.

It's like actors and actresses on a big time movie complaining about how much money the movie took in compared to how much they were paid. Movies are not just the big name actors and actresses, but costume designers, makeup artists, etc., and the money generated also helps studios fund the movies that didn't make back their budget. Yes, the big-name actors and actresses had a cash cow movie, but they didn't do it alone and aren't the only movie the studio produces.

[sooner59]

I don't care either way. But I will still smile about it. Hey, he knew the rules and he knew what he was doing. He tried to cheat the system like many before him. He got caught like many didn't. Sucks for him, but that's life. At least it shows younger kids coming up that they can get caught, especially if they are big players on the big stage. And if they get caught, it will shame them and the school they play for, and they will be stripped of everything they worked hard for. Just play by the rules and enjoy the game.

[Leroy Lizard]

If the DAC yanks his Heisman for not being an amateur, what are they going to do to all the other Heisman winners when stories come out about their transgressions? I am sure that players like Billy Cannon were given a lot of gifts during their playing time. (Not picking on Billy, just using him as an example.)

[Shakadoodoo]

They need to make an example of Reggie Bush - Even if other players were taking perks before him - They have to start somewhere. I think they should punish / fine the people giving them the perks as well. In any case, Vince Young should have won it that year anyway.

[Leroy Lizard]

They need to make an example of Reggie Bush - Even if other players were taking perks before him - They have to start somewhere.

You changed my mind. I agree.


I think they should punish / fine the people giving them the perks as well.

How do you do that?

[Herr Scholz]

Tell your coach.

Mack simply answered a direct question he was asked. He said "he would like to see VY get it". I don't have a problem with a coach standing up for his players and I wouldn't have a problem if Stoops had answered in the same way if he were in Mack's place. Not a big deal if you ask me.

It's a moot discussion anyway. They're not going to backfill a Heisman trophy.

[Shakadoodoo]

How do you do that?

From my experience - when I was at OU - those "friends" of the program usually are the ones offering the perks - since they have so much money to give out - hit them with a huge, enormous fine - The type of fine that would make someone giving perks very stupid to do so. Also make a spectacle of them - like dead beat dads or something - I am not sure what would or would not work but something needs to be done to them. Even though there is no justification for taking a perk - it should not be all on the players and the schools - especially since the "friends" of the program are old and mature enough to know what they are doing. Like I said there is no justification for taking a perk but it would not be hard for an 19-21 year old kid who has never seen big money - to be manipulated into doing so. Instead of just picking apples off of a tree the need to do something to cut the whole tree down!

[SunnySooner]

Maybe a bunch of other Heisman winners back in the day got "perks" as well--that was a different time, different place. They were operating under a system that gave similar "benefits" to a lot of players. What those winners received was not really all that out of the norm for all good players of the era. However, our little friend Reggie cannot say the same. We are now in a time of microscopic scrutiny, with many methods of monitoring players' situations, whatever they may be. He and his family rec'd extraordinary payments, in an open and flagrant manner, SUC made a decision to let it continue so Reggie would be happy. That makes him the perfect guy for the Heisman trust to make an example of--saying, now, in this day and in these times, this behavior will not be allowed to taint the Trophy. Whether it means anything to Bush to have to give it back is not the point. Hopefully, it will mean something to all those little football players out there who look up to Heisman winners, and when it comes their time to shine, they will remember what a disgrace and pariah Bush has become, and they will make the RIGHT decisions.

[Leroy Lizard]

From my experience - when I was at OU - those "friends" of the program usually are the ones offering the perks - since they have so much money to give out - hit them with a huge, enormous fine - The type of fine that would make someone giving perks very stupid to do so. Also make a spectacle of them - like dead beat dads or something - I am not sure what would or would not work but something needs to be done to them. Even though there is no justification for taking a perk - it should not be all on the players and the schools - especially since the "friends" of the program are old and mature enough to know what they are doing. Like I said there is no justification for taking a perk but it would not be hard for an 19-21 year old kid who has never seen big money - to be manipulated into doing so. Instead of just picking apples off of a tree the need to do something to cut the whole tree down!

Hit 'em with a big fine and you will end up in court. And if you end up in court, you open yourself up for further sanctions by the NCAA. There is a reason why so few boosters and agents get nailed for this.

It is the players who are responsible. We passed the laws that established 18 years old as "mature." Therefore, they are mature.

[Leroy Lizard]

Maybe a bunch of other Heisman winners back in the day got "perks" as well--that was a different time, different place. They were operating under a system that gave similar "benefits" to a lot of players.

If they broke the rules, they broke the rules. Doesn't matter one bit if others broke the rules too.

[Shakadoodoo]

Hit 'em with a big fine and you will end up in court. And if you end up in court, you open yourself up for further sanctions by the NCAA. There is a reason why so few boosters and agents get nailed for this.

It is the players who are responsible. We passed the laws that established 18 years old as "mature." Therefore, they are mature.

I see what you are saying. I wish there was a way to get around it. But I guess that is how our system works. And th kid should be held accountable - for jeopardizing the whole team for selfish reasons. Looks like stoops is doing a good job since we have not had a problem since Bomar. I just don't think it is right for the person who initiates the transaction to get off Scott free. I guess I could be biased as well since no one ever offered us wrestlers a new car - maybe a free beer - but thats about it.

[KantoSooner]

You can't fine the donors. They have done nothing illegal. The NCAA is neither a law making or law enforcing body. They are a voluntary association of universities and colleges; something on the order of the American Kennel Club. If you want to be a member of their little club, you have to obey their rules. Other than that, they are powerless.

[olevetonahill]

Who GAS,
Yall defending bush sound like gurls ., Yall sayin Fine the ones who payed him sound like gurls .

You :texan: s replying to this thread ARE gurls .

[Crucifax Autumn]

But Mack's just standing up for his players!

Why do we hear this sentence at least once a week here?

[Jacie]

If the DAC yanks his Heisman for not being an amateur, what are they going to do to all the other Heisman winners when stories come out about their transgressions? I am sure that players like Billy Cannon were given a lot of gifts during their playing time. (Not picking on Billy, just using him as an example.)

There is a precedent for this. Not the Heisman but in the same vein, the Jim Thorpe saga, having to give back Olympic medals he won in 1912 after it was discovered he had played semi-pro ball. They were restored (decades after he passed away, but it's the thought that counts, right?) since his transgression was not one of intent (the story goes that he would have suited up for nothing simply because he liked to play).

Anyway, I agree the point of going through the motions on this one is to discourage future college athletes from following Reggie's example.

Thought: what if he refuses to send back the actual trophy, say he claims it was stolen or he lost it?

[SbOrOiNaEnR]

The NCAA is neither a law making or law enforcing body. They are a voluntary association of universities and colleges; something on the order of the American Kennel Club.

Thanks for the new sig! :D

[SbOrOiNaEnR]

OK...maybe not. I'm too attached to my current one, and adding yours would put me over the 500 character limit I didn't know existed until 5 minutes ago.

[TexasLidig8r]

Hit 'em with a big fine and you will end up in court. And if you end up in court, you open yourself up for further sanctions by the NCAA. There is a reason why so few boosters and agents get nailed for this.

It is the players who are responsible. We passed the laws that established 18 years old as "mature." Therefore, they are mature.

Better yet then, have the NCAA lobby Congress to pass legislation criminalizing the inducing, paying or offering improper benefits to college and college eligible athletes. If a person is looking at fines, court costs and jail time, they are going to think twice.

[fadada1]

skipping over the first 3 pages....

vince young had a nice season with an all-world championship game. bush was spectacular all year (blech, blech, spit, spit). i think taking the heisman away would make a very powerful statement from here on out (or until 12/21/12). "you may have been the best player in college football, but you WILL do it within the rules."

[Leroy Lizard]

Better yet then, have the NCAA lobby Congress to pass legislation criminalizing the inducing, paying or offering improper benefits to college and college eligible athletes. If a person is looking at fines, court costs and jail time, they are going to think twice.

No. We do not need Congress getting further involved in college football. (And if a booster is from the same state as the player, I don't see how it is any of Congress' business.)

[47straight]

Mack simply answered a direct question he was asked. He said "he would like to see VY get it". I don't have a problem with a coach standing up for his players and I wouldn't have a problem if Stoops had answered in the same way if he were in Mack's place. Not a big deal if you ask me.

It's a moot discussion anyway. They're not going to backfill a Heisman trophy.

Like I said, tell your coach
Time to move on.

[MyT Oklahoma]

There is a precedent for this. Not the Heisman but in the same vein, the Jim Thorpe saga, having to give back Olympic medals he won in 1912 after it was discovered he had played semi-pro ball. They were restored (decades after he passed away, but it's the thought that counts, right?) since his transgression was not one of intent (the story goes that he would have suited up for nothing simply because he liked to play).

Anyway, I agree the point of going through the motions on this one is to discourage future college athletes from following Reggie's example.

Thought: what if he refuses to send back the actual trophy, say he claims it was stolen or he lost it?

He is already proven that he is a liar (and a deadbeat) so who would really be surprised if he claimed it was lost or stolen?

There is a time and place for everything and as Bush has now learned a time to take the 5th Amendment or simply make no comment.

Had Bush paid back the monies that were advanced illegally instead of forcing them to sue him then he would be home free at this point in time. I suppose that is what upsets me the most. That he took the money.. lied about it.. then had to be sued to settle the lawsuit without admitting any fault. What a tool.

[Leroy Lizard]

Thought: what if he refuses to send back the actual trophy, say he claims it was stolen or he lost it?

I think the trophy was gifted to him, so he can keep it if he wants. No?

[sooner59]

I think the trophy was gifted to him, so he can keep it if he wants. No?

The trophy itself....yeah maybe. The moniker of Heisman Trophy winner....no. That is probably more of an issue than the hardware at this point.

[ouflak]

I don't like it. Regardless of whether or not he was paid he was the best player in college that year.

I think the point is however the rules regarding the Heisman Trust to award the trophy. One of their rules is that the player must be eligible. Was he? It would seem not, no matter what the reason for that lack of eligibility was.

[TexasLidig8r]

No. We do not need Congress getting further involved in college football. (And if a booster is from the same state as the player, I don't see how it is any of Congress' business.)

Congress would not be involved other than passing legislation. Enforcement would be left to the Attorney General's office.'

Why federal? Because it is extremely unlikely that you could get all 50 states to pass identical legislation. Also, you would want uniform enforcement and penalties which could be provided under the mandatory sentencing guidelines in federal court.

[Pigface1]

OJ's difference was that it was never shown that he took illegal inducements while in college...(heh, just read Switzer's book) but still, he is still seen as as amateur. Bush has proven he wasn't.

No OJ just killed two people as an adult away from football. I don't see that OJ should lose his Heisman, be reviled, yes, lose trophy for non-football, no.

I know and I don't think OJ's should be taken; I was just stating the obvious.

[Leroy Lizard]

Congress would not be involved other than passing legislation.

Oh gee, is that all?

And isn't that always true?

[StoopTroup]

I think we have finally found a match made in heaven.

[sooner59]

Love is in the air...

[sooneron]

Mack simply answered a direct question he was asked. He said "he would like to see VY get it". I don't have a problem with a coach standing up for his players and I wouldn't have a problem if Stoops had answered in the same way if he were in Mack's place. Not a big deal if you ask me.

It's a moot discussion anyway. They're not going to backfill a Heisman trophy.

Would the ncaa THEN look into Radio's Yukon that he was sporting in asstin? Slippery slope, there :mack: .

[fadada1]

Would the ncaa THEN look into Radio's Yukon that he was sporting in asstin? Slippery slope, there :mack: .

that was part of his rhodes scholarship. duh.