Tax dollars to build mosques [Archive] - SoonerFans.com Message Boards

Okla-homey

8/12/2010, 08:20 PM

A little story. Please indulge an old man.

When we relieved the Marines who were holding Kandahar Int'l in January 2002, we surveyed the damage done by coalition airstrikes on the airfield, which was kinda like Taliban Central Headquarters.

The first thing we did was take care of the tons of unexploded ordnance all over the place, some of it Russian, some Chinese, and some Iranian. At the same time that was happening, we cleaned-up all the human poop in the terminal rooms where the Talibanners had squatted to relieve themselves for a couple years.

Then we repaired the roof and fixed the busted windows. Also rewired the joint, set up a LAN and fired up the generators. Now, at the same time, we had to get the runways in good shape which were pocked with poor maintenance for a decade. We had to do that because EVERYTHING we ate, drank or shot came in by air.

After that, the first project was rebuilding the mosque. Why? Because nothing says I care about and respect you as a human to a fundamentalist Muslim like fixing his broke-down, shot-up and burned-out mosque that was only about 50 meters from the terminal. And that paid big dividends among the elders in the neighborhood.

One old guy who looked 90, but was probably only 60, planted a garden between the terminal and mosque and watered those danged roses bushes and pomegranate saplings every day with a five gallon bucket he had to fill about 600 times. He spoke a little Engish and I took a minute to chat and compliment his work at least a couple times a week. And you know what else? For some reason, after that mosque project got rolling, the nightly rocket attacks started to taper off.

Now, that was almost ten years ago. I don't know the score now, but I know we were winning when I left. And I know this; using US tax dollars to build mosques among people for whom the mosque represents everything good, is a good investment in improved relations with those folks. And saves US lives.

C&CDean

8/13/2010, 08:40 AM

Uh, homeslice, NYC is NOT in Afghanistan. Just sayin'.

picasso

8/13/2010, 08:43 AM

There are already mosques all around ground zero. I'm not really surenwhat the big deal is. The more folks make a big deal out of it the more attention they get. I think they like the attention.

Just let it be. They'll be gone someday and they'll sell the property off for the dough. Like Dean says...maybe one of their own whack jobs will put an end to it for us.

Nothing to see here. I'm more outraged about that "Free Money" book by that Nigel guy being allowed to advertise his scam nationally. I think it would be cool if a bunch of people found out where he mails those books from and go down there and just ask for their free copy. He'd be out of business pretty quick is my guess.

The guy building this one has certain ties to certain people. That's the beef.

Okla-homey

8/13/2010, 01:48 PM

Uh, homeslice, NYC is NOT in Afghanistan. Just sayin'.

If you bothered to open the link at the head of this thread, you would know the threadstarter is bashing building mosquies with US international aid dollars. Dillweed.;)

StoopTroup

8/13/2010, 02:09 PM

The guy building this one has certain ties to certain people. That's the beef.

Sometimes it's better to hold your enemies closer. I'm just saying.

Like Homey said. If you keep giving the finger to people....things aren't going to get better. If you learn to respect each other and recognize your differences....not let it matter what or who that guy has ties to....we will always come out on top. Losing a small battle can sometimes lead to winning a War even though it seems like a bad idea. You have to pick the right battles IMO.

Let them pour their dough into a building instead of a Terrorist Death Camp to train people to hate.

I like knowing where the enemy is and I like looking them in the eye and saying...have a nice day. When they try to kill you...I have no problem winning that battle. Give them the rope to hang themselves instead of hang them for no reason except your unfounded fear of the unknown.

I never thought I could get along with Mormans but Hubler and I have learned to get along pretty good. :D ;) I've got no problem with a Latter Day Saints Facility in my neighborhood. The nice white shirts and black slack wearers remind me of the old Rat Pack Days when folks drank but didn't look like Drunks.

picasso

8/13/2010, 02:29 PM

Sometimes it's better to hold your enemies closer. I'm just saying.

Like Homey said. If you keep giving the finger to people....things aren't going to get better. If you learn to respect each other and recognize your differences....not let it matter what or who that guy has ties to....we will always come out on top. Losing a small battle can sometimes lead to winning a War even though it seems like a bad idea. You have to pick the right battles IMO.

Let them pour their dough into a building instead of a Terrorist Death Camp to train people to hate.

I like knowing where the enemy is and I like looking them in the eye and saying...have a nice day. When they try to kill you...I have no problem winning that battle. Give them the rope to hang themselves instead of hang them for no reason except your unfounded fear of the unknown.

I never thought I could get along with Mormans but Hubler and I have learned to get along pretty good. :D ;) I've got no problem with a Latter Day Saints Facility in my neighborhood. The nice white shirts and black slack wearers remind me of the old Rat Pack Days when folks drank but didn't look like Drunks.

Getting along has **** to do with it. If this guy has ties to certain terrorist groups and he's building a mosque at the site of our country's biggest tragedy due to terrorism then I have a problem with it.

Curly Bill

8/13/2010, 02:46 PM

We should let the muslims build a mosque at Ground Zero, because if they don't they'll put that money into terrorist death camps?

Man, if only we'd been so concillatory towards Hitler, we wouldn't have had that nasty world war and that Holocaust thing I guess.

Wow, what happened to this country standing up for itself, instead of being a bunch of pansies that gives into the peeps that hate it?

Crucifax Autumn

8/13/2010, 02:57 PM

I say we put mosques EVERYWHERE. They won't be able to find anything they can blow up without disrespecting Allah in the process.

Curly Bill

8/13/2010, 02:59 PM

I say we shoot any MFer that even mentions the word mosque. ;)

Crucifax Autumn

8/13/2010, 03:03 PM

http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/smilies/SmileySuicide.gif

TopDawg

8/14/2010, 10:35 PM

he's building a mosque at the site of our country's biggest tragedy due to terrorism

They attacked the Burlington Coat Factory too?! :eek:

http://politicallyillustrated.com/index.php?/news_page/video/1822/

;)

StoopTroup

8/14/2010, 10:39 PM

Can't we just redefine the word mosque?

I mean let look at our way of life here in 'merica. Just the way we use the word "love". It's got so many meanings.

Now...you just do a little creative wording and maybe even make a good rap video or a youtube explaining what you think would make a good mosque....

Hell a Rolling Stone gathers no Mossque.

TopDawg

8/14/2010, 10:42 PM

Wow, what happened to this country standing up for itself, instead of being a bunch of pansies that gives into the peeps that hate it?

What happened to this country standing up for religious liberty instead of being a bunch of pansies that get their panties in a wad because someone wants to build a worship center in an old clothing store?

StoopTroup

8/14/2010, 10:45 PM

Dude...I took my viagra last night and got my lady in the Mosque Position and afterwards wiped up with a towel. The carpet burns is killing me!

I think we can turn what ever the hell they think we take serious into more of a thing that seems like something they use an excuse to try and upset us.

Turn it into some sort of joke and nobody is going to want to be apart of something like that....matter of fact....we can later claim that it's not a religion and more of a Comedy Club and then start making them pay taxes on them all.

StoopTroup

8/14/2010, 10:53 PM

If the folks at those Mosques do actually help people instead of make a place that is some sort of tax shelter or War Monument for terrorists...then we get a win win. The idjets that flew those planes into the WTC were idjets and the people who built the mosques afterwards were folks who realized that those 9-11-01 idjets were trying to put an end to things they had no right to end. If the folks who build these Mosques are truely trying to build on the future and build legitimate places of Worship for future generations that try not to ever give the 9-11-01 Terrorist legitimacy...then we are doing the right thing in just letting things be. If they aren't...we are going to have lots of targets later. Believe in your faith and let God guide you through these current times of turmoil. We will prevail over hate. Believe that my friends.

GKeeper316

8/14/2010, 11:27 PM

Wow, what happened to this country standing up for itself, instead of being a bunch of pansies that gives into the peeps that hate it?

the pussification of america is the fault of the trial lawyers

Curly Bill

8/15/2010, 12:31 AM

What happened to this country standing up for religious liberty instead of being a bunch of pansies that get their panties in a wad because someone wants to build a worship center in an old clothing store?

A worship center? Just call it a mosque ya dumas - the place where the peeps that don't like our way of life go to do their thing.

Curly Bill

8/15/2010, 12:39 AM

the pussification of america is the fault of the trial lawyers

....and all the handwringing PCers that we seem to have in abundance here and elsewhere. ;)

MR2-Sooner86

8/15/2010, 11:49 AM

We attacked their greatest city and tallest buildings performing the worst terrorist act their country has ever seen and brought them to their knees. In less than ten years we were able to build a mosque in the very shadow of where it too place. The best thing, they didn't do a thing about it.

THAT is how radical Islam will view this.

Anyway, I'd like to point out a little something about the man behind this mosque, Feisal Abdul Rauf. You've heard about his book "What's Right with Islam : is What's Right With America." What you probably don't know is that the book had a different name before it was published here and that was "A Call to Prayer from the World Trade Center Rubble: Islamic Dawah from the Heart of America Post 911."

Have you also heard some of the things he has said?

The Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians. But it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima, neither of which were military targets.

How about his response on the U.S. declaring Hamas a terrorist organization?

I'm not a politician. I try to avoid the issues. The issue of terrorism is a very complex question... I am a peace builder. I will not allow anybody to put me in a position where I am seen by any party in the world as an adversary or as an enemy.

How about mosque in general? Are the just places of worship? No. Look at history and you will see mosque are a symbol of conquest and subordination like Hagia Sophia or Al-Aqsa in the middle in Israel. How about all the anti-American and anti-western literature that are found in mosque? Sounds like a great place.

Do I agree with this mosque? **** no. Do they have the right to build it? Yes. I also have the right to freedom as well. If I want to build a Muhammad Urinal Store right next door I have the right. I mean, we all know Muslims can take criticism very well and are peaceful about it not making death threats or anything.
http://www.stanford.edu/group/ccr/blog/southparkmuhammad.jpg
http://images.biafranigeriaworld.com/Cartoons-of-Prophet-Muhammad-01.jpg
http://www-movieline-com.vimg.net/images/assets_c/2010/04/SouthParkRadicalThreat585-thumb-500xauto-12749.jpg

Serge Ibaka

8/15/2010, 12:19 PM

But it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima, neither of which were military targets.

So what..isn't this true? What's your point?

How about mosque in general? Are the just places of worship? No. Look at history and you will see mosque are a symbol of conquest and subordination

Isn't this likewise true for the entire history of Christian churches and missions?

How about all the anti-American and anti-western literature that are found in mosque?

As if the West has a squeaky-clean history? The West, in its perpetual imperializing, has earned the world's contempt. Yeah, radical-terrorism is crazy and deplorable, but I certainly understand anti-American sentiments [see: the Crusades; 19th century slavery; Jim Crow; the a-bomb; the coups of several democratically-elected leaders in Latin America and Iran]. What makes America so great that everybody should love us unconditionally?

Do I agree with this mosque? **** no. Do they have the right to build it? Yes.

This doesn't make sense: if you cite the importance of a (uniquely-American) freedom to worship, then what is there to disagree with?

I also have the right to freedom as well. If I want to build a Muhammad Urinal Store right next door I have the right.

I agree. Jon Stewart had a good gag in the wake of the South-Park thing where he showed clips from the many of times that South Park had insulted various religions. Comedy Central (South Park?) are pus**es for giving Islam special treatment.

GrapevineSooner

8/15/2010, 01:12 PM

Fairly certain World War II was a war against a specific ideology, and not a specific religion. That ideology we fought did bring religion into it by targeting German Jews though.

As for the mosque, I grant you that the organizers have the right to build a mosque next to a 9/11 memorial just as much as an anti-government organization that condemns violence would have the right to build a recruiting center next to the OKC National Memorial.

Doesn't necessarily mean it's a great idea, though.

And in the end, I think it's a local issue that only New Yorkers should get to decide.

On a side note, I think Greg Gutfeld made an excellent point when he proposed building a gay bar next to the proposed center.

MR2-Sooner86

8/15/2010, 01:28 PM

So what..isn't this true? What's your point?

Bombing of military targets with civilian casualties has been around forever. These acts just get more publicity. Also, those acts were different than flying planes into buildings.

Isn't this likewise true for the entire history of Christian churches and missions?

No not really. If you look at the Renaissance you see forms of mental masturbation by the church. Most of the artist of the time doing the work were homosexuals yet the church had no problem hiring them to design and "show off" the church. Hagia Sophia had all the art torn down and all the paintings on the walls were covered up. Big difference if you ask me.

As if the West has a squeaky-clean history? The West, in its perpetual imperializing, has earned the world's contempt. Yeah, radical-terrorism is crazy and deplorable, but I certainly understand anti-American sentiments [see: the Crusades; 19th century slavery; Jim Crow; the a-bomb; the coups of several democratically-elected leaders in Latin America and Iran]. What makes America so great that everybody should love us unconditionally?

You have one good point, the rest is a broken record.

Crusades? Yeah, lets talk about something that has happened within the past 500 years when America was actually known on the map.
Slavery? Lets see an institution that was practiced throughout Europe and Africa and even today some of the heaviest human trafficking goes through the Middle East.
Jim Crow? Really, you think they think about Jim Crow laws with the way they treat their women? Next please.
Atomic bombs? The only people complaining are those who never read a history book.

Now, ****ing around with other people's governments is a good way to get people pissed off at you. I know that little thing called Vietnam made a few people upset. South America hates us for the Monroe Doctrine. The Middle East hates us because we back Israel and we'll jump in bed with anybody as long as the oil keeps flowing.

However, there is a catch 22 here. Many countries complain that we got involved with World War 2 too late and didn't stop Hitler early. Now, countries complain we get involved too much. Which is it? You want us to sit back or charge in to stop people? You can't have it both ways.

Anyway, nobody has a clean history but is that a reason to kill innocent people? I think not. Calling our women whores because they aren't covered from head to toe? Give me a break.

This doesn't make sense: if you cite the importance of a (uniquely-American) freedom to worship, then what is there to disagree with?

I think there's something else at work but that's me. However, if you get down to it, it's wrong and in bad taste. They're building this mosque to "heal" yet they're offending everybody and making them mad. I've seen several polls that show up to 60% of Americans and New Yorkers don't want this thing. If they don't want it, don't build it.

For instance, you're at a funeral and trying to comfort somebody and they say, "Leave me alone you're not helping." then you leave them alone. You don't try to keep comforting them do you?

I agree. Jon Stewart had a good gag in the wake of the South-Park thing where he showed clips from the many of times that South Park had insulted various religions. Comedy Central (South Park?) are pus**es for giving Islam special treatment.

One reason I don't like Muslims, they have a super thin skin. My friends I talk to in Europe told me they weren't surprised and see the same types of things all the time. They really love to say "Religion of Peace" but have no trouble getting violent with opposition.

picasso

8/15/2010, 01:33 PM

So what..isn't this true? What's your point?

Nothing is untrue here, it's his lack of context that is misleading. He seems to leave out the whole part that led up to this.

Troll.

picasso

8/15/2010, 01:35 PM

As if the West has a squeaky-clean history? The West, in its perpetual imperializing, has earned the world's contempt.

Hey smart guy. Go read a book, the East is guilty of this also.

Okla-homey

8/15/2010, 01:47 PM

the pussification of america is the fault of the trial lawyers

no. it was soccer.

Okla-homey

8/15/2010, 01:54 PM

Hey smart guy. Go read a book, the East is guilty of this also.

Amen. I recommend "The Rape of Nanking." Or perhaps a history of the Muslim conquest of Europe and the Asian sub-continent. Ever hear of a guy named Genghis?*

The fact is, humans the world over too often act like predatory animals.

* they have a chain of stir-fry joints called "Ghenghis Grill." We have two in Tulsa now. I reckon a megolomaniacal murderer of millions can become PC enough for a restaurant chain after what? 1600 hundred years or so? Does this mean there will be Hitler's Strudel Haus and Mussolini's Linguini in the year 3540 or so?

Serge Ibaka

8/15/2010, 01:59 PM

Hey smart guy. Go read a book, the East is guilty of this also.

I'm aware of this...I'm simply saying that I understand Anti-American sentiments given our history--it's not like America has always been a beacon for trust and kindness world-wide. We have caused people to suffer.

I don't know anything about Rauf, but MR2's post quoting him was void of context as well.

Serge Ibaka

8/15/2010, 02:11 PM

I think there's something else at work but that's me. However, if you get down to it, it's wrong and in bad taste. They're building this mosque to "heal" yet they're offending everybody and making them mad. I've seen several polls that show up to 60% of Americans and New Yorkers don't want this thing. If they don't want it, don't build it.

For instance, you're at a funeral and trying to comfort somebody and they say, "Leave me alone you're not helping." then you leave them alone. You don't try to keep comforting them do you?

Maybe I'm missing something. When did the organizers of this project say that this had anything to do with 9/11 (as a "healing" operation or otherwise)?

I thought they were just building a building.

GrapevineSooner

8/15/2010, 02:38 PM

Maybe I'm missing something. When did the organizers of this project say that this had anything to do with 9/11 (as a "healing" operation or otherwise)?

I thought they were just building a building.

They have a Twitter account called Park51, since that's the project's name. I can't get to it right now because I'm working over my company's VPN connection and it's blocked.

They've said countless times that they're opening the center in an effort to help non-Muslims understand and to heal...mentions that peaceful Muslims were among the thousands killed on that day.

Course, when Gutfeld proposed his gay bar be built next door, they wanted no part of him and accused him of offending their sensibilities. :D

Serge Ibaka

8/15/2010, 06:46 PM

They have a Twitter account called Park51, since that's the project's name. I can't get to it right now because I'm working over my company's VPN connection and it's blocked.

They've said countless times that they're opening the center in an effort to help non-Muslims understand and to heal...mentions that peaceful Muslims were among the thousands killed on that day.

Course, when Gutfeld proposed his gay bar be built next door, they wanted no part of him and accused him of offending their sensibilities. :D

This just sounds like a faulty PR move--if they want their Islam-church: build it. Talk of 9/11 is irrelevent, and I cannot imagine that that was within the original spirit of the plans (and even if it was..so what? It would be stupid, but it would be within their rights).

Also, I hope they build a gay-bar on each side of the church. Across the street too.

StoopTroup

8/15/2010, 07:21 PM

Also, I hope they build a gay-bar on each side of the church. Across the street too.

There was some guy on Glenn Beck that said we was gonna build one right next to if possible.

Serge Ibaka

8/15/2010, 07:23 PM

There was some guy on Glenn Beck that said we was gonna build one right next to if possible.

Glenn Beck talks to gay-bar-builders on his show?

I figured he only spent time with those folks after work.

StoopTroup

8/15/2010, 07:27 PM

Glenn Beck talks to gay-bar-builders on his show?

I figured he only spent time with those folks after work.

They both were talking about good names for ghey bar drinks with a Muslims theme....they are so funny. :rolleyes: :pop:

picasso

8/15/2010, 07:46 PM

I'm aware of this...I'm simply saying that I understand Anti-American sentiments given our history--it's not like America has always been a beacon for trust and kindness world-wide. We have caused people to suffer.

Well how about we look into the now then? I agree the U.S. has some shady history but in the current time we happen to live in we are more worthy of any other country when it comes to aid and support.

olevetonahill

8/15/2010, 07:51 PM

King Barry's Back

8/16/2010, 07:29 AM

King Barry's Back

8/16/2010, 07:54 AM

The mosque builder claims to oppose the killing of "innocent people." However, has anybody asked him his definition of "innocent people"? It might or might not be the same definition that you or I would use.

For example, Imams have issued fatwas authorizing terrorists to kill Israeli children and babies, on the grounds that these children might grow up to defend Israel against Muslims.

Also, it is common practice for Imams to make conciliatory-sounding statements in English, and then call for violent jihad against Americans and the West in Arabic.

In point of fact, Islamists are obsessed with building large Mosques and Islamic centers to tower over what they see as the symbolic power-centers of Old Christendom. For example, Muslims are/were attempting to build one of the largest Mosques in the world overlooking the Vatican in Rome.

The symbolism of an Islamic holy man building an "Islamic healing center" to tower over ground zero is very powerful to most Islamists and their supporters and enablers. It displays the power of violent Islamism, and the lack of will of the West.

The Islamists are in a competition with the modern and Western-influenced world. THe Islamists have little but war, violence, suffering and poverty to offer their potential recruits, against the comforts and priviliges offered by modern life.

So, the Islamists' immediate goal is to paint themselves as the eventual winning side. If Islamism looks like the future, and the West looks like it is receding and falling into decay, then the Islamists can sell their vision. (Coincidentally, this is the same strategy used by the Roman Catholic Church during the Rennaissance. They pulled down the glories of Rome and used the bricks to build sparkling new churches. The message: Christianity is the rising power and the paganism of old Rome is dead.)

The Ground Zero Mosque (which was the original name of the project) is almost certainly an attempt to show the power of Islam, even in the heart of the West -- Wall Street -- and at the site of Islam's greatest victory over the "infidel" -- Ground Zero. It's $100 million price tag is evidence enough that this is not intended as a routine Muslim holy place. It must be seen by its deveopers as something more.

Moreover, about the only place a NY Imam can get his hands on money like that is from Middle Eastern oil sheiks -- most likely Saudis -- who are riddled with Wahabists sympathizers and enablers. In fact, one significant backer is the terrorist-sympathizer that suffered the embarrassment of having his check returned by Mayor Giuliani.

Whether or not you think this Mosque should blocked or encouraged, you should understand how it will portrayed and seen by our enemies.

The fact that NYC and the USA is so tolerant that it allows this to go forward, and some officials even encourage it -- will be seen as a sign of respect and honor by Muslims around the world. But other Muslims will see another message, and it's my guess the second message will be the most widely held.

GrapevineSooner

8/16/2010, 08:05 AM

Well, in regards to the 'The terrorists have already won if we allow a mosque to be built near Ground Zero', I suspect they'll manufacture any reason they can to claim victory over us.

They = Islamofascists. Some of my best friends are Muslims and would destroy the stereotypes a lot of you have about Muslims. Just sayin'

They can have that 'victory', as long as their ability to, you know, actually pull off attacks continues to be severely compromised.

jkjsooner

8/16/2010, 08:34 AM

The common perception is they are spitting in the eye of Americans.
They can do that , But a Jihad is called on any one that spits on Islam
Nuff ****in said :rolleyes:

Oh and **** them and the camel they rode in on .

Valid criticisms of Muslims... However, I look at this particular issue in a different way. By allowing them to have their Mosque, we prove how much better we are than they.

texaspokieokie

8/16/2010, 08:48 AM

i believe they should have their mosque (place from which mosquitos emanate); but we reserve the right to land a plane there, after they fill it up.

TopDawg

8/16/2010, 05:58 PM

A worship center? Just call it a mosque ya dumas - the place where the peeps that don't like our way of life go to do their thing.

Okay.

What happened to this country standing up for religious liberty instead of being a bunch of pansies that get their panties in a wad because someone wants to build a mosque in an old clothing store?

And I think you'd be surprised at the number of Muslims that actually DO like our way of life. Ya know, since they chose to live here peacefully.

http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=15076

Serge Ibaka

8/16/2010, 06:09 PM

Okay.

What happened to this country standing up for religious liberty instead of being a bunch of pansies that get their panties in a wad because someone wants to build a mosque in an old clothing store?

And I think you'd be surprised at the number of Muslims that actually DO like our way of life. Ya know, since they chose to live here peacefully.

http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=15076

No way, man. Americans are Christian uber-Capitalists.

And dissent makes you anti-American.

You don't know anything about America.

picasso

8/17/2010, 12:13 AM

No way, man. Americans are Christian uber-Capitalists.

And dissent makes you anti-American.

You don't know anything about America.

Wrong troll. Dissent makes you a racist.

Shakadoodoo

8/17/2010, 11:17 AM

I thought Europeans came to America to escape religious persecution. So why are people persecuted if they are not Christian? When the Christian Tim McVeigh blew up the building in OKC - would anyone get mad because of a church being built close by? Sometimes we can be as hypocritical as "Manifest Destiny!"

OklahomaTuba

8/17/2010, 11:52 AM

So why are people persecuted if they are not Christian? When the Christian Tim McVeigh blew up the building in OKC - would anyone get mad because of a church being built close by? Sometimes we can be as hypocritical as "Manifest Destiny!"
So allowing Al Qaeda to have a memorial at ground zero before America does is somehow persecution???

I wonder what you think would happen to a Christian or Jew if they tried to build a place for worship in Mecca??

And actually Tim McVeigh was more of a "unitarian" or humanist than a Christian. His religion was "science".

TopDawg

8/17/2010, 12:22 PM

So allowing Al Qaeda to have a memorial at ground zero before America does is somehow persecution???

If Al Qaeda was building a memorial at ground zero, I would be against it. If Muslims want to build a mosque near ground zero, that's different.

I wonder what you think would happen to a Christian or Jew if they tried to build a place for worship in Mecca??

I wonder if you think America should hold itself to a higher standard of religious freedom than they do in Mecca.

And actually Tim McVeigh was more of a "unitarian" or humanist than a Christian. His religion was "science".

Yeah. He grew up Catholic, but only sorta. By the time he was an adult, he didn't associate himself with much of any religion...right? I'd say his religion was "anti-government." Or, at least, "anti-American-government." He was pretty passionate about that.

Shakadoodoo

8/17/2010, 12:32 PM

So allowing Al Qaeda to have a memorial at ground zero before America does is somehow persecution???

I wonder what you think would happen to a Christian or Jew if they tried to build a place for worship in Mecca??

And actually Tim McVeigh was more of a "unitarian" or humanist than a Christian. His religion was "science".

Are all Mosques built by Al Qaeda? All Muslim are not part of Al Qaeda.

I would not mind if Christians or Jews built anything over there or anywhere else for that matter. I am not Muslim and I believe people should have the freedom to pry to whomever or whatever they want to. in any case - Christians and Jews did better than building a place of worship in Mecca - they built one of the most powerful cities in the Middle East about 4 hrs away.

I just read what you were saying about his religion. But those KKK skin heads are avid Christians, I guess I was looking at him being one of them.

Chuck Bao

8/17/2010, 01:45 PM

I don't know. But the correct answer still seems to me to be respect of religious freedom and its a local New York development/zoning issue, just like President Obama said. Otherwise, we are lowering ourselves to their level and that definitely was not the principles our great country was founded on. We either stand for freedom for all or we don't. There should be no room for ambivalence.

Trying to presume what Islamic extremists must be thinking and then take umbrage that they will claim “victory” seems a bit silly to me. These extremists are probably more concerned that their daughters will be listening to Lady Gaga on their ipods. Okay, bad example.

I have often wondered what the local reaction would be if I built a big Buddha statue on Hwy 70 between Ardmore and Madill. Don’t worry: it is just a thought exercise. But I imagine that the local people would be pretty pissed off and it would be a local issue. Not at all a national issue of Okies’ seeing a big Buddha as they travel down a small Oklahoma highway and getting offended. This is sort of the same thing in New York. They can build a mosque 3 or 5 or 10 blocks from the rubble of the collapsed World Trade Center towers and New Yorkers can decide if they want it there. I just don’t see it as a knock on our national pride at all.

JohnnyMack

8/17/2010, 01:51 PM

All Muslims are evil.

They aren't like me, so they're bad.

Ike

8/17/2010, 01:58 PM

JohnnyMack

8/17/2010, 01:59 PM

I have often wondered what the local reaction would be if I built a big Buddha statue on Hwy 70 between Ardmore and Madill.

http://api.ning.com/files/u5krmSgK2tJf8QuriAXBW5iz60Vpd5qKqA85mZnz-gDZnCrBbtLJPe7H8Reh5WbmExN5ivpMZuSkwBouuCfqSSkNACb upUN2/redneck.jpg

picasso

8/17/2010, 03:17 PM

I have often wondered what the local reaction would be if I built a big Buddha statue on Hwy 70 between Ardmore and Madill.

You know it would be the same kind of reaction a manger scene with Christ in it would get in say San Francisco.

The tide goes both ways.

Crucifax Autumn

8/17/2010, 04:06 PM

And both ways are WRONG and unAmerican.

King Barry's Back

8/17/2010, 04:57 PM

King Barry's Back

8/17/2010, 05:09 PM

I'm pretty much with you there Chuck.

For me it boils down to one simple thing: Did these people follow the law? Were those laws the same laws that any other religious organization would have to follow to build a church or synagogue or temple on that site or in that area? If so, then OK, I guess they get to build it. If not, then don't let them.

We don't get to apply the law differently for different religions here. Thats part of what makes us awesome. If NYC so wanted, they might be able to zone some blocks around ground zero as "No religion blocks". But even that might not pass muster. And it would probably **** off someone who wanted to build a big church there. And then people would say "why can't the 'XYZs for Christ' build a church near ground zero?!". But it's pretty clear that we can't (and IMO shouldn't) try to use the law to allow certain religions to do things that others can't.

See my post immediately above for my view of the mosque, but be aware that all religions teach different ideas, concepts and values, and that simply stating that we tolerate all of them is naive in the extreme.

We do not tolerate religions that practice human sacrifice, or even animal sacrifice (as far as I know). And some religions have been banned from consuming illegal drugs during their rituals. AND the United States has not and does not recognize the polygamous marriages of some followers of the Book of Mormon.

Regarding Muslims, I am sure that some/most are mostly very peaceful, lovely people. ALL of the Muslims that I know are.

HOWEVER, we should all bear in mind that their holy book prescribes stoning as the punishment for women guilty of adultery or sex outside of marriage (including for rape victims!)

And that, under Islamic law, it is practically impossible for a man to be guilty of rape, as the Koran requires that FOUR ADULT MALES must witness the act or no crime is considered to have occured. Islamic scholars have also ruled that if four male witnesses to rape WERE found, the perpetrator should be released for mental illness as no sane man would rape a woman in front of four witnesses.

And also bear in mind that good Muslims are taught that God hates the Jews, and that one day the Jews will be deemed so loathsome that when a Jew hides behind a tree, the tree will cry out "O Muslim! A Jew is hiding behind me. Come and kill him!"

TopDawg

8/17/2010, 05:18 PM

HOWEVER, we should all bear in mind that their holy book prescribes stoning as the punishment for women guilty of adultery or sex outside of marriage (including for rape victims!)

And that, under Islamic law, it is practically impossible for a man to be guilty of rape, as the Koran requires that FOUR ADULT MALES must witness the act or no crime is considered to have occured. Islamic scholars have also ruled that if four male witnesses to rape WERE found, the perpetrator should be released for mental illness as no sane man would rape a woman in front of four witnesses.

And also bear in mind that good Muslims are taught that God hates the Jews, and that one day the Jews will be deemed so loathsome that when a Jew hides behind a tree, the tree will cry out "O Muslim! A Jew is hiding behind me. Come and kill him!"

There are a lot of "crazy" laws and stuff in the Bible too. And crazy interpretations by Christian scholars.

ddub0224

8/17/2010, 05:42 PM

How exactly was that a crazy interpretation. The Bible has the cool new part called the New Testament that replaced Mosaic Law. What part of the Koran clarrifies how a man should beat his wife?

picasso

8/17/2010, 05:46 PM

Valid criticisms of Muslims... However, I look at this particular issue in a different way. By allowing them to have their Mosque, we prove how much better we are than they.

Simply by allowing them to worship their God and practice their religion makes us better than them.
They tolerate nothing else in their homeland.

TopDawg

8/17/2010, 06:17 PM

Chuck Bao

8/17/2010, 06:32 PM

jkj, when you say "By allowing them to have their Mosque, we prove how much better we are than they." What do you mean? I assume when you say "them" you're referring to New York City Muslims, but is that the same group you're referring to when you say "they" at the end? And when you say "we" who are you referring to? Christians? 'Cause it's not just a Christian thing. Americans? Because they are Americans too. Did you mean, "By allowing NYC Muslims to have their Mosque, we prove how much better America is than [insert largely Islamic country]"?

Same sorta question for picasso. Who are "they" that tolerate nothing else in their homeland and are "they" the same people who are wanting to build the mosque (or have already built mosques here in America)?

I feel like there are two (maybe three) different types of "they" and they're all getting mixed up...sometimes even in the same sentence. We've got American Muslims, Muslims who practice peacefully overseas, and terrorists who carry out unspeakable acts in the name of Islam. But somehow they all too often get lumped together in the big group "they" or "them."

That is a very interesting question. I suppose that with some minority religions that the spiritual teachers would need to come from overseas. Of course you don't want foreign teachers being brought in to preach about the Great Satan (i.e., the US). Although I would sympathesize to some degree about morality issues, I could never do that with muslims and their treatment of women and gays.

Afterall, America sends out lots and lots of missionaries and those trying to do missionary work and some of that which is said and done is in the name of God but at the same time really, really insulting to the indigeneous population.

Shakadoodoo

8/17/2010, 08:04 PM

All black people do not steal, all Mexicans are not illegal, all Asians are not smart, all white people do not have small penises and all Muslims are not terrorist. Sometimes, Inductive reasoning is a reflection of low literacy. But I stand behind us being tolerant. Just because someone is of a different religion does not make them a bad person. That way of thinking is dangerous. The major tools of racism is mystification. And anyone who has built their belief of what Muslims are by listening to TV and opinionated talk show host, instead of going into the communities and seeing it first hand, will continue to be mystified bigots. The freedom to be who you want to be is a beautiful thing in this country. I love having the freedom to voice my opinion if I do or do not agree with something.
For exp:
I totally disagree with homosexuality and I do not want it pushed upon my kids - but I would fight for the right of a gay person being who they want to be before I would fight for someone telling everyone what they better be! We may take this freedom for granted, but I would absolutely hate to live in a country that I was not free to voice my opinion and free to be what ever I want to be.

Ike

8/17/2010, 08:21 PM

See my post immediately above for my view of the mosque, but be aware that all religions teach different ideas, concepts and values, and that simply stating that we tolerate all of them is naive in the extreme.

We do not tolerate religions that practice human sacrifice, or even animal sacrifice (as far as I know). And some religions have been banned from consuming illegal drugs during their rituals. AND the United States has not and does not recognize the polygamous marriages of some followers of the Book of Mormon.

Yes, we don't allow religious practices that violate our laws, but although the Book of Mormon allows polygamous marriages, and we don't recognize those, we still don't prevent Mormons from having their temples.

Regarding Muslims, I am sure that some/most are mostly very peaceful, lovely people. ALL of the Muslims that I know are.

HOWEVER, we should all bear in mind that their holy book prescribes stoning as the punishment for women guilty of adultery or sex outside of marriage (including for rape victims!)

And that, under Islamic law, it is practically impossible for a man to be guilty of rape, as the Koran requires that FOUR ADULT MALES must witness the act or no crime is considered to have occured. Islamic scholars have also ruled that if four male witnesses to rape WERE found, the perpetrator should be released for mental illness as no sane man would rape a woman in front of four witnesses.

And also bear in mind that good Muslims are taught that God hates the Jews, and that one day the Jews will be deemed so loathsome that when a Jew hides behind a tree, the tree will cry out "O Muslim! A Jew is hiding behind me. Come and kill him!"

Bear in mind too that many of these same punishments are called for in the old testament of the bible. In the case of adultery, both the man and woman are to be put to death. It also calls for death in the case of blasphemy or sabbath breaking. While I am in complete agreement with you that the law laid out in the Koran is no way to govern a modern society, it is still no basis for the denial of a place to worship. Most sane people would agree that the Judeo-Christian understanding of the laws laid out in the bible have changed (somewhat) to fit the times we live in. Is that not also possible with Islam? To deny them a place to worship simply because we don't like their book, or the actions of some people who claim the same religion is very shortsighted, and without evidence of these exact people seeking to build a mosque, breaking our laws, or actively trying to be injurious to our society, it is IMO, un-American too. To do so would be akin to crying out against a new baptist church, simply because David Duke and his ilk claim to be baptists. (I don't know that he is or not...if not, substitute his actual religion in for baptist.)

jkjsooner

8/17/2010, 09:25 PM

jkjsooner

8/17/2010, 09:34 PM

All black people do not steal. all Mexicans are not illegal

Are you implying that no black people steal and no Mexicans are illegal.

I'm kidding, I think the way you said it is considered perfectly fine (but it shouldn't be). It's just another pet peeve of mine. I prefer the less ambiguous, "Not all black people steal."

Anyway, this is way off topic and more about me than you.

Harry Beanbag

8/18/2010, 02:12 AM

Ike

8/18/2010, 08:09 AM

I guess some people are incapable of understanding the line between building another mosque in New York City, there are over 140 already, or building what will be the largest mosque in New York City in a location next to Ground Zero, and on top of that naming it after a Victory Mosque in Spain.

The problem isn't the idea of building it, that is obviously perfectly legal if it meets zoning regs. The problem is the wisdom of placing it there. The "Religion of Peace" is showing its stripes again.

The idea of calling the original cordoba mosque a "victory mosque" has been shown to be historically dodgy...

http://gotmedieval.blogspot.com/2010/08/professor-newts-distorted-history.html

Ike

8/18/2010, 08:14 AM

I guess some people are incapable of understanding the line between building another mosque in New York City, there are over 140 already, or building what will be the largest mosque in New York City in a location next to Ground Zero, and on top of that naming it after a Victory Mosque in Spain.

The problem isn't the idea of building it, that is obviously perfectly legal if it meets zoning regs. The problem is the wisdom of placing it there. The "Religion of Peace" is showing its stripes again.

Oh, and as to the wisdom of placing it there...I have nothing to add to that. From their side of the fence, thats a decision they have to make. From my side (and I presume from anyone elses side), all we can do is opine one way or the other whether it's wise or not. The law does not allow for much more. Thus I consider opinions about the wisdom of building a mosque there to be completely useless.

King Barry's Back

8/18/2010, 10:26 AM

There are a lot of "crazy" laws and stuff in the Bible too. And crazy interpretations by Christian scholars.

Ummm... not so much.

Interesting you gave no examples of the "crazy" laws taught by Jesus, such as "Love they neighbor as thyself," and [I paraphrase] "Let he that is free from sin cast the first stone (at an adulteress)."

The claim that Christianity, or its forerunner and brother religion Judaeism, have a "crazy" or violent past just underscores the weakness of comparing these two religions with Islam.

Yes, there is violence in the Old Testament, but this was superceded in the later New Testament.

Just the opposite is true in the Koran. The peaceful versus came from Mohammed's early teachings, and these were supersceded by his later and violently aggressive teachings.

It's also true that Christians have engaged in political, religious violence. I would counter argue that the Crusades were over 900 years ago, the Inquisition was over 350 years ago, and the religious wars of Europe have been over for something like 300 years as well.

Somebody is killed in the name of Islam somewhere in the world, what, every 10 minutes or so?

[Edited to indicate the Crusades were actually 1000 years ago, not the 500 I originally posted. 1000 years. Damn, that's a long time.]

TopDawg

8/18/2010, 11:07 AM

Ummm... not so much.

Interesting you gave no examples of the "crazy" laws taught by Jesus, such as "Love they neighbor as thyself," and [I paraphrase] "Let he that is free from sin cast the first stone (at an adulteress)."

Ummm, yes, absolutely so much.

Just as a Christian can defend the "crazy" laws of the Old Testament by using the New Testament (and I'm right there beside you defending them. It bugs me when Christians let Old Testament teachings outweigh the things that Jesus taught), a Muslim can defend the "crazy" laws in the Koran. I have set down with Muslims and discussed this. The ones I've spoken to have the utmost respect for Jesus and follow his teachings as well. They acknowledge that there are crazy, violent thing in the Koran (just like in the Bible) but that those things are not consistent with the true message/meaning.

OklahomaTuba

8/18/2010, 11:29 AM

They acknowledge that there are crazy, violent thing in the Koran (just like in the Bible) but that those things are not consistent with the true message/meaning.
Obviously you, nor the person you spoke to have ever stepped foot in a muslim country before. I can speak from experience that the above is total BS.

If you ignore Sharia Law & the religious police aspect of these countries like KOSA, then you might have a point.

Unfortunately, most Imam's teaching Islam, their followers, their nation's leaders and the history of Islam as a whole don't see it that way.

TopDawg

8/18/2010, 11:53 AM

Obviously you, nor the person you spoke to have ever stepped foot in a muslim country before. I can speak from experience that the above is total BS.

You experienced the conversations I had with them? Because if you didn't, you can't speak from experience about the conversations I had with them, thus making what you said BS.

The person I've spoken with most frequently grew up in Turkey. Obviously he's set foot in a Muslim country before. He can speak from experience that what I said is true.

I'm not denying that there are people who take all of the bad, evil parts of Islam and use them to further their own personal agenda with religious fervor. Just like there are Christians who do the same. But to say that the Koran teaches evil and the Bible doesn't is incorrect. The books are read and interpreted by teachers and students and those people draw their own conclusions. In each religion you find people that justify their hate and violence using their holy book and people who justify their love and peace using the very same book.

OklahomaTuba

8/18/2010, 01:24 PM

The books are read and interpreted by teachers and students and those people draw their own conclusions.

This statement alone shows you have no clue about Islam or how Islam really works.

The Remnant

8/18/2010, 08:50 PM

There are some naive people on this thread who think they know something about islam.

TopDawg

8/18/2010, 10:05 PM

This statement alone shows you have no clue about Islam or how Islam really works.

Every statement you make on this message board shows you have no ability to understand anything that's not already been pounded into your head by whatever right wing source you've been listening to or reading.

I'm not going to claim my experience with Islam is the only experience you can have. But it is my experience and it's true and I'm not the only person who's had an experience like it. Please be smart enough to realize the same is true for you.

TopDawg

8/18/2010, 10:06 PM

There are some naive people on this thread who think they know something about islam.

AMEN!

;)

picasso

8/19/2010, 06:37 PM

Afterall, America sends out lots and lots of missionaries and those trying to do missionary work and some of that which is said and done is in the name of God but at the same time really, really insulting to the indigeneous population.

Bringing food, shelter, technology and relief to those in need and then preaching to them is not like they're being tortured.
I've yet to read about any Christian missionaries forcing indigenous people into conversion.

Crucifax Autumn

8/19/2010, 06:42 PM

So what is the missionary position on this?

King Barry's Back

8/19/2010, 08:12 PM

Yes, we don't allow religious practices that violate our laws, but although the Book of Mormon allows polygamous marriages, and we don't recognize those, we still don't prevent Mormons from having their temples.

Bear in mind too that many of these same punishments are called for in the old testament of the bible. In the case of adultery, both the man and woman are to be put to death. It also calls for death in the case of blasphemy or sabbath breaking. While I am in complete agreement with you that the law laid out in the Koran is no way to govern a modern society, it is still no basis for the denial of a place to worship. Most sane people would agree that the Judeo-Christian understanding of the laws laid out in the bible have changed (somewhat) to fit the times we live in. Is that not also possible with Islam? To deny them a place to worship simply because we don't like their book, or the actions of some people who claim the same religion is very shortsighted, and without evidence of these exact people seeking to build a mosque, breaking our laws, or actively trying to be injurious to our society, it is IMO, un-American too. To do so would be akin to crying out against a new baptist church, simply because David Duke and his ilk claim to be baptists. (I don't know that he is or not...if not, substitute his actual religion in for baptist.)

I got off topic somewhat. In pointing out what Muslims believe, I was attempting to punch holes in one of my pet peeves, that being that "All religions teach the same old, same old."

This argument doesn't have much to do with the Ground Zero Mosque in particular. I am not enthusiastic about the Mosque, but I don't really care that much if they build it.

You make an excellent point, followed by an EXTREMELY important question. "Most sane people would agree that the Judeo-Christian understanding of the laws laid out in the bible have changed (somewhat) to fit the times we live in. Is that not also possible with Islam?"

I certainly hope that it is possible with Islam, but what I am arguing is that we are not there yet.

King Barry's Back

8/19/2010, 08:16 PM

Ummm, yes, absolutely so much.

Just as a Christian can defend the "crazy" laws of the Old Testament by using the New Testament (and I'm right there beside you defending them. It bugs me when Christians let Old Testament teachings outweigh the things that Jesus taught), a Muslim can defend the "crazy" laws in the Koran. I have set down with Muslims and discussed this. The ones I've spoken to have the utmost respect for Jesus and follow his teachings as well. They acknowledge that there are crazy, violent thing in the Koran (just like in the Bible) but that those things are not consistent with the true message/meaning.

Hope you are right, my friend, hope you are right. I should probably let it go at that, but I will add that the fastest growing and most powerful school of Islam in the world is Wahabbism, and they believe every one of the "craziest" ideas that Muhammed preached.

King Barry's Back

8/19/2010, 08:18 PM

Bringing food, shelter, technology and relief to those in need and then preaching to them is not like they're being tortured.
I've yet to read about any Christian missionaries forcing indigenous people into conversion.

[Typical unthinking Western secularist] Christians used to forcibly convert people! [Typical unthinking Western secularist]

49r

8/19/2010, 08:26 PM

So what is the missionary position on this?

It's the same around the world. Everybody's done it that way at least a time or two.

picasso

8/19/2010, 10:13 PM

[Typical unthinking Western secularist] Christians used to forcibly convert people! [Typical unthinking Western secularist]

No ****. I'm talking about right now.

And the Christians that initially came here to convert the Natives were not Americans. Ding ding.

Crucifax Autumn

8/19/2010, 10:17 PM

Unfortunately there are some people in all religions making decent people look bad and other people generalize based on their stupidity:

http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID15870/images/Westboro_Baptist_Church_protesters,_AP.jpg

Turd_Ferguson

8/19/2010, 10:27 PM

Unfortunately there are some people in all religions making decent people look bad
http://emilygracewriting.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/9-11-attack.jpgYes, yes there is...

Crucifax Autumn

8/19/2010, 10:45 PM

Exactly my point. Religion is a great thing that teaches morality and goodness until the whackos get ahold of it.

Chuck Bao

8/20/2010, 12:18 AM

Bringing food, shelter, technology and relief to those in need and then preaching to them is not like they're being tortured.
I've yet to read about any Christian missionaries forcing indigenous people into conversion.

Back in the '80s and before the televanglist scandals, the Baptists used to brag that their missionary efforts far surpassed anything in the history of Christiandom. Of course, they are far surpassed now by the Mormons.

At one point a few years ago, I counted five cousins from different sides of my family who were serving as Baptist missionaries overseas. Not one of them is a doctor, engineer, home builder, farming expert. Okay, my favorite cousin is a very talented musician and he can rock the house.

King Barry's Back

8/20/2010, 08:25 AM

There are some naive people on this thread who think they know something about islam.

Not sure if you are talking about me. I am ABSOLUTELY NOT an expert on Islam. I have read much of the Koran, though not all, and I have looked at Islam from a counter-terrorism view point.

All I can tell you is that, putting aside all the interpretations and traditions and stories that have grown up around Christianity -- at the bottom you have only the teachings of Jesus. Jesus is considered to a deity in his own right, and therefore is considered an infallible speaker of truth by most Christians. And Jesus tought tolerance and forgiveness. Maybe not 100% of everything he said or did, but if you had to sum what he taught in two works, "forgiveness and tolerance" would do pretty well.

To cut right down to the basis of Islam, the teachings of Mohammed, you would have to sum up his teachings as "Islam is the struggle to spread the only true religion to the entire globe, and oppress and shame all dissenters into either accepting Islam, being forced into a slave-like second citizenship ("dhimmitude"), or eventually killing them if they don't submit."

That's it. That's what Islam is all about. "Islam" is Arabic for "submission."

There's just no other way to cut it.

I don't really care about the mosque at Ground Zero.

What I oppose is just simply parroting that Islam is just another religion with good and bad in it, so we should all accept another table at the local ecumenical dinner.

In fact, all religions are unique, and we do no service to ourselves or to Muslims by simply assuming that they believe the same things we do.

JohnnyMack

8/20/2010, 09:10 AM

Christianity -- at the bottom you have only the teachings of Jesus.

What about that whole pesky Jeebus prequel called the Old Testament? If it's all Jesus all the time, why do they still use that part of the Bible?

KC//CRIMSON

8/20/2010, 09:14 AM

Islam has been part of our heritage since Columbus. Two of his captains were Muslim, themselves victims of the Spanish Inquisition. Large numbers of slaves were Muslim, too -- brought involuntarily from African regions in which Islam was the prevalent religion.

Would you like a taste of irony? Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the Sufi (which, by the way, is a mystic, near-pacifist form of Islam) leader of the community center, was sent by President George W. Bush on two separate trips to speak to Muslim nations about religious tolerance and pluralism in the United States. He is, in fact, currently in the Middle East (Saudi Arabia and other emirates) to sing the joys of living in the land of equality, religious liberty, and fair play.

By the way, long before the World Trade Center was built (for which the Port Authority condemned a lot of private property), the area surrounding that part of the Battery was called "Little Syria". It was heavily populated by Maronite Christians, Muslims, and others from Syria, Lebanon, and other parts of the Levant.

Muslims have always been a part of lower Manhattan, and were among the 9/11 dead as well as first responders and later rescuers.

Those who are seeking to build the Community Center (which includes, but is not limited to, a prayer area) have had this plan since before 2000.

It's not at "Ground Zero." It's a couple of blocks away from the outermost edge of the site that included the multi-building World Trade Center.

In addition, it's not a mosque. It's a community center, with a lot of features, including recreation facilities (one of which is a basketball court), a food court, community rooms, and a prayer/meditation area. It also has a place dedicated to the lives lost on 9/11.

It's sponsored and organized by moderate Muslims, and will conform to dietary and other rules recognized by observant Muslims, but it will operate as an interfaith facility -- much the way YMCA/YMHA/YWCA centers function.--read more...caroline

picasso

8/20/2010, 12:51 PM

Back in the '80s and before the televanglist scandals, the Baptists used to brag that their missionary efforts far surpassed anything in the history of Christiandom. Of course, they are far surpassed now by the Mormons.

At one point a few years ago, I counted five cousins from different sides of my family who were serving as Baptist missionaries overseas. Not one of them is a doctor, engineer, home builder, farming expert. Okay, my favorite cousin is a very talented musician and he can rock the house.

The guy that leads my Baptist Life Group is a retired Air Force Colonel and has been building water wells in the far east for years. Yeah, you have to hear about Jesus while you get some water.

ddub0224

8/20/2010, 12:53 PM

What about that whole pesky Jeebus prequel called the Old Testament? If it's all Jesus all the time, why do they still use that part of the Bible?

The Torah (Mosaic Law), served as the foundation of beliefs and laws for the Israelites in the Old Testament. The teachings of Jesus in the New Testament showed how we should love one another and provided color as to why sin is wrong, and not just against the law/teaching.

JohnnyMack

8/20/2010, 01:05 PM

The Torah (Mosaic Law), served as the foundation of beliefs and laws for the Israelites in the Old Testament. The teachings of Jesus in the New Testament showed how we should love one another and provided color as to why sin is wrong, and not just against the law/teaching.

Books like the bible and the koran and the torah are so silly to me because the copy is so diverse and so vague that minute parts of it can be used in any way you want. I can post plenty of violent text from the new testament of the bible, not to mention the macabre things found in the old testament and make christianity look like as equally a violent religion as islam. It's all in the interpretation and how people use the text to their advantage.

ddub0224

8/20/2010, 01:09 PM

Books like the bible and the koran and the torah are so silly to me because the copy is so diverse and so vague that minute parts of it can be used in any way you want. I can post plenty of violent text from the new testament of the bible, not to mention the macabre things found in the old testament and make christianity look like as equally a violent religion as islam. It's all in the interpretation and how people use the text to their advantage.

The New Testament teachings supersede those of the Old Testament.

JohnnyMack

8/20/2010, 01:44 PM

The New Testament teachings supersede those of the Old Testament.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/dpmulvey/ChurchLady.jpg
Well isn't that convenient?

ddub0224

8/20/2010, 01:48 PM

Haha, nicely played with the church lady. But, yes in most instances, New replaces Old.

jkjsooner

8/21/2010, 09:31 AM

Back in the '80s and before the televanglist scandals, the Baptists used to brag that their missionary efforts far surpassed anything in the history of Christiandom. Of course, they are far surpassed now by the Mormons.

At one point a few years ago, I counted five cousins from different sides of my family who were serving as Baptist missionaries overseas. Not one of them is a doctor, engineer, home builder, farming expert. Okay, my favorite cousin is a very talented musician and he can rock the house.

Speaking of Baptist missionaries... My brother recently did a missionary trip to a South American country that is listed as 94% Christian. I guess the problem is that are (gasp!) Catholic.

Seriously, do they really need American missionaries?

picasso

8/21/2010, 09:45 AM

Speaking of Baptist missionaries... My brother recently did a missionary trip to a South American country that is listed as 94% Christian. I guess the problem is that are (gasp!) Catholic.

Seriously, do they really need American missionaries?

Our country claims the same thing and look how ****ed up we are.

Leroy Lizard

8/21/2010, 10:54 AM

Books like the bible and the koran and the torah are so silly to me because the copy is so diverse and so vague that minute parts of it can be used in any way you want.

It's vague to those who scan the Internet looking for Biblical passages taken completely out of context and think they're some ****in' Biblical scholar.

To understand these books you have to read them. But I would bet that very few people who attack the Bible have actually read it. (Not sure about the Torah... can anyone actually read it?)

Leroy Lizard

8/21/2010, 10:56 AM

Speaking of Baptist missionaries... My brother recently did a missionary trip to a South American country that is listed as 94% Christian. I guess the problem is that are (gasp!) Catholic.

Seriously, do they really need American missionaries?

Some Protestant denominations don't consider Catholics saved. So in their view, yes, they need to send missionaries.

JohnnyMack

8/21/2010, 11:34 AM

It's vague to those who scan the Internet looking for Biblical passages taken completely out of context and think they're some ****in' Biblical scholar.

To understand these books you have to read them. But I would bet that very few people who attack the Bible have actually read it. (Not sure about the Torah... can anyone actually read it?)

I'm no fan of the bible or any other religious nonsense, and I have read the bible.

jkjsooner

8/21/2010, 11:44 AM

I'm no fan of the bible or any other religious nonsense, and I have read the bible.

I grew up Baptist so I understand and frankly I felt that way too at one time. Then I actually talked to Catholics and learned that they believe Jesus is the son of God and have accepted him. Whether or not they think that that is what gets you to heaven is irrelevant.

I know the Baptists and some others believed in the concept of being "saved" as being some immediate transformational process. I've never seen anything in the Bible that states this. Maybe there is a passage or two that states that someone had that transformational process but most of the Bible indicates that being a Christian (believing/accepting/following Jesus) is a state of mind not some miraculous process.

I think some evangelical sects have taken a couple of versus and built their entire religious beliefs on those versus rather than looking at the entire theme in the Bible.

jkjsooner

8/21/2010, 11:52 AM

One other point, I'm not generally critical of missionaries whether they be evangelical or Mormon or whatever. One of the most ridiculous things I've heard is that they are trying to spread American culture or infuence.

That's simply absurd. Nobody volunteers their time to "spread our culture or influence." For better or worse, they do what they do because they feel it is right and they were called to do it. Whether good or bad, 99% of them have altruistic motives.

But, back to the original point, I think the Baptist churches sure could spend their money more wisely than travelling to a country that is 94% Christian.

Okla-homey

8/21/2010, 11:53 AM

All I can tell you is that, putting aside all the interpretations and traditions and stories that have grown up around Christianity -- at the bottom you have only the teachings of Jesus. Jesus is considered to a deity in his own right, and therefore is considered an infallible speaker of truth by most Christians. And Jesus tought tolerance and forgiveness. Maybe not 100% of everything he said or did, but if you had to sum what he taught in two works, "forgiveness and tolerance" would do pretty well.

I would generally agree with the above to the extent Christ taught us to love our neighbors as ourselves and to do unto others as we would have them do unto us. However, He did not abide, nor did He teach we should tolerate unrepentant sin. After all, He himself went berzerk on the folks who ran shady businesses that sinfully profited off temple goers. [Are you listening cable TV religious hucksters? ]

OTOH, He asked us to forgive pentitant sinners, just as He does all those who sincerely seek His forgiveness. You will recall He stopped the stoning of a woman caught in the act of adultery, for which she sought His forgiveness, which He gave, but told her as they parted "go and sin no more."

All that to say, let's don't stretch the notion of "tolerance" beyond its scriptural basis to the point of asserting Christians should be "tolerant" of everyone and eveything. That's not scriptural, and it's inconsistent with Christ's teachings.

StoopTroup

8/21/2010, 12:13 PM

Good point Homey...

There was a man who lived in the world for seventy years, and all that time he lived a life of sin. And this man fell sick, and he did not repent. And when death came, in his last hour, he burst into tears and said: “Lord, forgive me as Thou forgavest the thief on the cross!” Scarce had he succeeded in saying this when his soul departed. And the soul of the sinner loved God and believed in His mercy, and came to the doors of heaven.

And the sinner began to knock and beg to be admitted into the Kingdom of Heaven.

And he heard a voice behind the door saying: “What man is this that knocketh at the door of Heaven, and what deeds hath he done in his lifetime?”

And the voice of the Accuser answered, and counted up all the sinful deeds of this man. And he named no good deeds at all.

And the voice behind the door answered : “Sinners cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Depart hence!”

And the man said: “My Lord! I hear thy voice, but thy face I do not see, and thy name I know not.”

And the voice answered: “I am Peter the Apostle.”

And the sinner said: “Have pity upon me, Peter the Apostle, and be mindful of human weakness and the mercy of God. Wert not thou a disciple of Christ; didst thou not hear His teaching from His very lips and see the example of His life? And remember—when He was afflicted and tormented in spirit, and begged thee three times not to sleep but to pray, thou didst sleep because thine eyes were heavy, and three times He found thee sleeping. And so it hath been with me.

“And remember, too, how thou didst promise Him not to deny Him even unto death, and how thou didst thrice deny Him when they brought Him before Caiaphas. And so it hath been with me.

“And remember, too, how the rooster crew, and thou didst depart and weep bitterly. So it hath been with me. Thou can'st not but let me in.”

And the voice behind the door of Paradise was silent

And after no very long delay the sinner again began to knock at the door and ask to be admitted into the Kingdom of Heaven.

And another voice was heard to speak from behind the door, and it said: “What man is this, and what manner of life did he live in the world?”

And the voice of the Accuser replied, and recounted all the evil deeds of the sinner, and named no good deeds at all.

And the voice behind the door answered: “Depart hence; such sinners cannot live together with us in Heaven.”

And the sinner said: “My Lord, I hear thy voicer but thy face I see not, and I do not know thy name.”

And the voice said to him: “I am King David the Prophet.”

And the sinner did not despair, and did not depart from the door of Heaven, and began to say: “Have pity upon me, King David, and remember human weakness and the mercy of God. God loved thee and exalted thee in the eyes of the people. Everything was thine—dominion and glory and riches and wives and children; and thou didst behold from thy roof the wife of a poor man, and sin awakened in thee, and thou didst take the wife of Uriah and didst slay Uriah himself with the sword of the Ammonites. Thou, the rich man, didst take from the poor man his last little lamb, and destroyed the man himself. So it hath been with me.

“And remember how, afterward, thou didst repent and say: ‘I acknowledge my faults, and my sins are ever before me.’ So it hath been with me. Thou can'st not but let me in.”

And the voice behind the door was hushed.

And in a little while the sinner again began to knock at the door and beg to be admitted into the Kingdom of Heaven. And for the third time a voice was heard behind the door saying: “Who is this man, and how hath he lived his life in the world?” And the voice of the Accuser answered for the third time, and recounted all the evil deeds of the man, and named no good deeds at all.

And the voice answered from behind the door and said: “Depart hence! Sinners cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.”

And the sinner answered: “Thy voice I hear, but thy face I see not, and I do not know thy name.”

And the voice answered: “I am John the Divine, the disciple whom Jesus loved.”

And the sinner rejoiced and said: “Now thou can'st not refuse to let me in. Peter and David might have let me in because they knew the weakness of man and the mercy of God. And thou wilt let me in because thou lovest much. Didst not thou, oh, John the Divine, write in thy book that God is Love, and he that loveth not knoweth not God? Didst thou not in thine old age say this one sentence to the people: ‘Brethren, love one another’? How then can'st thou now begin to hate me and drive me away? Either deny what thou thyself hast said, or else let me into the Kingdom of Heaven.”

And the gates of Paradise were opened, and John embraced the penitent sinner, and admitted him into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Leroy Lizard

8/21/2010, 01:54 PM

OTOH, He asked us to forgive pentitant sinners, just as He does all those who sincerely seek His forgiveness. You will recall He stopped the stoning of a woman caught in the act of adultery, for which she sought His forgiveness, which He gave, but told her as they parted "go and sin no more."

But Homey, it sounds as if Jesus was being JUDGMENTAL.

StoopTroup

8/21/2010, 04:35 PM

But Homey, it sounds as if Jesus was being JUDGMENTAL.

If asking: “Who is this man, and how hath he lived his life in the world?” ...is judgmental...you probably have some reading and personal thought to accomplish somewhere down the line unless a piano falls from the sky suddenly and crushes you like a bug. Then it was probably a coin flip.

Leroy Lizard

8/21/2010, 05:01 PM

If asking: “Who is this man, and how hath he lived his life in the world?” ...is judgmental...you probably have some reading and personal thought to accomplish somewhere down the line unless a piano falls from the sky suddenly and crushes you like a bug. Then it was probably a coin flip.

Overplayed a bit much?

StoopTroup

8/21/2010, 05:05 PM

Overplayed a bit much?

He still seems to be pretty popular.

King Barry's Back

8/27/2010, 04:33 AM

I'm no fan of the bible or any other religious nonsense, and I have read the bible.

Johnny Mack -- I understand that you think religion is "nonsense." But what is relevant here is that religion is deadly serious to millions (billions?) of other people, rightly or wrongly.

For what it's worth, the nature of the Koran is far different from that of the Bible. The Bible was compiled by numerous authors over centuries.

The Koran was written by one man during one lifetime. The Suras of the Koran are considered to literally be the actual words and commandments of God himself. (That's why studying the Koran in Arabic is so important to Muslims -- no translation of God's word could ever be worthy.)

There are contradictory passages in the Koran, but Mohammed himself stated that whenever one passage contradicts another, the latest one CANCELS the older one. THe violent passages are the later, and thus still active, passages. THe peaceful passages are the earlier, and thus inactive, ones.

Johnny, like you, I consider Islam to be nonsense. But others believe it is a literal commandment from God to subjugate and/or kill "infidels." I am worried about those people, not the atheists.

King Barry's Back

8/27/2010, 04:44 AM

I would generally agree with the above to the extent Christ taught us to love our neighbors as ourselves and to do unto others as we would have them do unto us. However, He did not abide, nor did He teach we should tolerate unrepentant sin. After all, He himself went berzerk on the folks who ran shady businesses that sinfully profited off temple goers. [Are you listening cable TV religious hucksters? ]

OTOH, He asked us to forgive pentitant sinners, just as He does all those who sincerely seek His forgiveness. You will recall He stopped the stoning of a woman caught in the act of adultery, for which she sought His forgiveness, which He gave, but told her as they parted "go and sin no more."

All that to say, let's don't stretch the notion of "tolerance" beyond its scriptural basis to the point of asserting Christians should be "tolerant" of everyone and eveything. That's not scriptural, and it's inconsistent with Christ's teachings.

Homey --

This is a thread about Islam. I have assumed that most posters on this board are religiously best informed about Christianity, therefore I have attempted to summarize the basic tenants of Christianity as a contrast to the basic tenants of Islam.

In so doing, I have neither intended to explain nor to defend Christianity nor Christ himself. I am a Christian and I can and do defend Christianity and debate other Christians about Biblical teachings -- but that's not what this thread has been about.

The Middle East -- where both Jesus and Mohammed lived -- has traditionally been dominated by tribal based societies, with strict rules dictating harsh punishment for crimes, honor violations, and the like. Such rules often dictated that revenge must be taken against a perceived perpetrator.

Jesus taught that we should take revenge against those who "trespass against us," but instead "turn the other cheek," and seek to forgive them.

Mohammed, in contrast, embraced the culture of revenge -- which has lead us to much of today's troubles.

Sure, Jesus never advocated letting the criminals run wild, but he did not endorse "an eye for an eye," either.

This is the "tolerance and forgiveness" I was talking about.

Leroy Lizard

8/27/2010, 10:41 AM

I'm no fan of the bible or any other religious nonsense, and I have read the bible.

Unfortunately everyone claims that.

Leroy Lizard

8/27/2010, 10:43 AM

Johnny Mack -- I understand that you think religion is "nonsense." But what is relevant here is that religion is deadly serious to millions (billions?) of other people, rightly or wrongly.

For what it's worth, the nature of the Koran is far different from that of the Bible. The Bible was compiled by numerous authors over centuries.

The Koran was written by one man during one lifetime. The Suras of the Koran are considered to literally be the actual words and commandments of God himself. (That's why studying the Koran in Arabic is so important to Muslims -- no translation of God's word could ever be worthy.)

I have heard that the Koran was written in a form of Arabic that has never been translated because it cannot be read. Urban legend?

JohnnyMack

8/27/2010, 11:33 AM

Unfortunately everyone claims that.

Well since I was raised a Methodist and attended church until I was 14 I can assure you I'm not doing it to prove how cool I am.

I think your religion, along with every other religion every other culture has developed to explain things they don't understand is a bunch of ****. Baseless, mystical horse**** that is as believable as something Tolkien would have written. Don't take it personally, I'm not trashing your precious little Christianity specifically, instead I take umbrage with religion as a whole. To me, Jesus, Zeus and Xenu are all pretty much the same thing.

Leroy Lizard

8/27/2010, 12:07 PM

Well since I was raised a Methodist and attended church until I was 14 I can assure you I'm not doing it to prove how cool I am.

I'm talking about READING the Bible, not going to church. Sure, in church they will ask you to open up the Bible and read a passage. That's nothing.

The Bible is immense, and very few people who do not have an emotional bond to God's Word have actually read it.

I would love to find that one person out there that attacks the Bible who will honestly own up to not reading it. Rapture would probably occur at that moment.

JohnnyMack

8/27/2010, 12:12 PM

I'm talking about READING the Bible, not going to church. Sure, in church they will ask you to open up the Bible and read a passage. That's nothing.

The Bible is immense, and very few people who do not have an emotional bond to God's Word have actually read it.

I would love to find that one person out there that attacks the Bible who will honestly own up to not reading it. Rapture would probably occur at that moment.

Reading is hard.

C&CDean

8/27/2010, 02:24 PM

Reading is hard.

Maybe you should have step tattoo Bible verses on his belly so you could read them up close.

JohnnyMack

8/27/2010, 02:28 PM

Maybe you should have step tattoo Bible verses on his belly so you could read them up close.

You seem to be quite partial to the Carl Sagan quotes I have tattooed on my thighs.

C&CDean

8/27/2010, 02:29 PM

You mean the one that says "billions and billionths of an inch?"

XingTheRubicon

8/28/2010, 08:53 AM

I learn so much here.

TopDawg

9/20/2010, 01:15 PM

Hope you are right, my friend, hope you are right. I should probably let it go at that, but I will add that the fastest growing and most powerful school of Islam in the world is Wahabbism, and they believe every one of the "craziest" ideas that Muhammed preached.

So I've been away from the SO for a while and just now saw this. I'd be interested to know more about how this is the fastest growing and most powerful school of Islam. And I don't mean that sarcastically as it so often comes across on a message board...I'm genuinely interested in knowing how that has been measured.

And then the question is "Why is that the fastest growing school of Islam?" With very little knowledge of the situation, I would hazard a guess that it might have something to do with the leaders of Wahabbism using western culture or Christianity as a scapegoat or the evil that needs to be conquered by Islam. They may be misrepresenting who we are or what our aim is in order to gain support. This leads me to wonder if...even though it doesn't have a name like Wahabbism...anti-Islam is the fastest growing and most powerful school of Christianity right now. It seems to be growing rather quickly. If so, I have to wonder if the anti-Islam followers are doing the same sorts of things (misrepresenting who Muslims are and what their aim is).

Speaking of missionary work...as many of you were doing before...our church takes a regular mission trip to Ghana. I was interested when I came across this story: http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=16464

A Ghanaian Baptist pastor told participants in a Christian-Muslim dialogue workshop at the 20th Congress of the Baptist World Alliance, meeting in Honolulu, that the Muslims in his city would protect Christians if troublemakers sought conflict with them.

"If you come to our city today and want to fight us, it is the Muslims that will defend us," said Emmanuel Kwabena Mustapha, a Baptist leader in Yendi, Ghana, a city of 35,000 in the northern region of the country where 80 to 90 percent of the people belong to the Islamic faith.