PDA

View Full Version : Good Morning...Harry Drops the Big One



Okla-homey
8/6/2010, 05:52 AM
August 6, 1945: Atomic bomb is dropped on Hiroshima, Japan

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/5858/hiroshima1fi4.jpg
Mushroom cloud shot from Enola Gay approximately 6 minutes post-release

65 years ago on this day in 1945, at 8:16 a.m. Japanese time, an American B-29 bomber, the Enola Gay, drops the world's first atomic bomb, over the city of Hiroshima.

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/531/hiroshimamq1.jpg

Approximately 80,000 people are instantly killed as a direct result of the blast, and another 35,000 are injured. At least another 60,000 would be dead by the end of the year from the poisonous effects of the nuclear fallout.

U.S. President Harry S. Truman, discouraged by the Japanese response to the Potsdam Conference's demand for unconditional surrender, made the decision to use the atom bomb to end the war in order to prevent what he predicted would be a much greater loss of life were the United States to invade the Japanese mainland.

And so on August 5, while a "conventional" bombing of Japan was underway, "Little Boy," (the nickname for one of two atom bombs available for use against Japan), was loaded onto Lt. Col. Paul W. Tibbets' plane on Tinian Island in the Marianas.

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/8730/hiroshima20bomb20that20kx8.jpg

Tibbets' B-29, named the Enola Gay after his mother, left the island at 2:45 a.m. on August 6. Five and a half hours later, "Little Boy" was dropped, exploding 1,900 feet over a hospital and unleashing the equivalent of 12,500 tons of TNT. The bomb had several inscriptions scribbled on its shell, one of which read "Greetings to the Emperor from the men of the USS Indianapolis" (the ship that transported the bomb to the Marianas) -- poignant since the ship was torpedoed by a Japanese sub after making its delivery and thousands of her crew perished while awaiting rescue in shark infested Pacific waters.

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/2229/hiroshimawideweb430x323rp4.jpg

There were 90,000 buildings in Hiroshima before the bomb was dropped; only 28,000 remained after the bombing. Of the city's 200 doctors before the explosion; only 20 were left alive or capable of working. There were 1,780 nurses before-only 150 remained who were able to tend to the sick and dying.

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/803/hiroshima17ig4.jpg

According to John Hersey's classic work Hiroshima, the Hiroshima city government had put hundreds of schoolgirls to work clearing fire lanes in the event of incendiary bomb attacks. They were out in the open when the Enola Gay dropped its load.

There were so many spontaneous fires set as a result of the bomb that a crewman of the Enola Gay stopped trying to count them. Another crewman remarked, "It's pretty terrific. What a relief it worked."

Faced with the reality, scale and implications of this attack, the Japanese government remained stoic. It would take one more nuke dropped on August 9 before they faced reality and accepted a fate the Japanese had never before accepted. Unconditional surrender.

On August 15 the Emperor announced his acceptance of the Potsdam declaration. For the first time, the Japanese people heard his voice when it went out over the radio airwaves throughout what was left of Imperial Japan.


"Despite the best that has been done by everyone . . . the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage . . . . Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is indeed incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives . . . . This is the reason why we have ordered the acceptance of the [Potsdam Declaration] --Radio Broadcast of the Japanese Emperor, August 15, 1945

The Boeing B-29 Superfortress

The B-29 "Superfortress" made its maiden flight from the Boeing plant in Seattle, Washington in 1942. Thus, it was the only US bomber not already designed or built when WWII began. It was the largest bomber used in WWII by any nation.

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/2663/b29drwg10qg.jpg

The B-29 was conceived in 1939 by Gen. Hap Arnold, who was afraid a German victory in Europe would mean the United States would be devoid of bases on the European side of the Atlantic from which to counterattack.

A bomber was needed that would fly faster, farther, and higher than any then available, so Boeing set to creating the four-engine heavy bomber. In just a little over two years, a corporate army of engineers and designers, without benefit of calculators (let alone computers,) put the world's most sophisticated and capable bomber on the Seattle tarmac.

Those guys did it with pencils, paper, and sliderules.

Eventually, 1620 B-29's were built by Boeing at their Wichita, Kansas plant. 357 were built under license by Bell at their Atlanta, Georgia plant and similarly, 536 were built by Martin at their Omaha, Nebraska plant.

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/1563/b2941ul.jpg
A Superfort photographed with Tokyo below

The plane was extraordinary. The B-29 was designed for long distance, high altitude operation and utilized the favorable flying conditions afforded by sub-stratosphere flight.

Pressurized cabins meant the crew didn't have to wear heavy cold-weather gear or suck oxygen from a hose. In addition to standard oxygen equipment, the use of two turbosuperchargers on each of its four enormous rotary engines enabled "Superforts" to fly at a service ceiling in excess of 40,000 feet.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/6144/eeeeeeeeeusairp8qf1.gif (http://imageshack.us)
The four 18-cylinder Wright Model R-3350-23 engines developed 2200 horsepower each, giving the airplane a total of 8800 horsepower.

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/5089/b2910rm.jpg
B-29 front office. The "greenhouse" effect made pre-flight checks miserable. It could easily hit 120 degrees inside on a sunny summer day. Fortunately, it cooled off pretty quick once the engines were running and cooling air started to flow through the cockpit vents.

The airplane could carry a 10-ton bomb load and had for defensive armament 10 .50 caliber machine guns and one 20 mm cannon. The machine guns were housed in five power turrets, the cannon protruding from the tail turret. All turrets were actuated electrically and were remotely controlled from sighting stations within the heated and pressurized crew compartment.

Able to carry bombloads almost equal to its own weight at altitudes of 30,000 to 40,000 feet. It contained a duplicate set of controls and instrumentation aft of the pilots station at the flight engineer's station which could actually to be used to fly the plane in the event the front cockpit was destroyed by enemy fire. It also sported the first radar bombing system of any U.S. bomber.

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/3526/b29blimphanger1tx.jpg
One flying B-29 remains. Here's "Fifi" at an airshow in Akron OH. That's a blimp hangar in the background.

The Superfortress made its maiden run over the continental United States on September 21, but would not make its bombing-run debut until June 5, 1944, against Bangkok, in preparation for the Allied liberation of Burma from Japanese occupation.

A little more than a week later, the B-29 made its first run against the Japanese mainland. On June 14, 60 B-29s based in Chengtu, China, bombed an iron and steel works factory on Honshu Island.

Meanwhile, the Marianas Islands in the South Pacific were being recaptured by the United States, primarily to provide air bases for their new B-29s -- a perfect position from which to strike the Japanese mainland on a consistent and constant basis.

Once the bases were ready, the B-29s were employed in a long bombing campaign against Tokyo and other important Japanese cities. Incidentally, our Andersen AFB with its multiple 10,000 runways on Guam is a remnant of this period. As late as 1973, we were bombing North Vietnam from the huge bomber base on Guam. A very cool place that positively drips with memories of great men who flew their missions and put bombs on target no matter what.
http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/3037/bguamfltline26wd.jpg
Approaching Anderson -- looking southwest. Note the cliffs at the approach end of the multiple parallel runways.

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/6637/bfinalassault3ks.jpg
These missions against the Japanese homeland were'nt all "milkruns."

Although capable of precision bombing at high altitudes, the decentralized "cottage"-based industries in many Japanese cities, the much higher wind speeds aloft, and the extensive Nipponese use of wooden structures, convinced US air leaders the way to go was dropping incendiary devices from a mere 5,000 feet. This, firebombing in an attempt to destroy the cities and break the will of the Axis power became the policy.

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/3152/b2978rs.jpg
Formation bombing was the norm

One such firebombing raid in March 1945 killed more than 80,000 people in a single day. But the most famous, or perhaps infamous, use of the B-29 would come in August as it was the only plane capable of delivering a 10,000-pound bomb--the atomic bomb.

The Enola Gay and the Bock's Car took off from Tinian, Guam's sister island in the northern Marianas, on August 6 and 9, respectively, and flew into history.

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/9599/eeeeeeeeeeeeeee51749729lp9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/8629/eeeeeeeb29superfortressartnt3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/9862/bvalorinthepacific9zh.jpg
Another 1945 morning's "aluminum overcast" enroute to pound Japan.

Just 15 years after the B-29 roll-out, the boys in Seattle were at it again designing a turbo-jet powered replacement for the B-29/B-50 that become the B-52 "Stratofortress" (a/k/a "BUFF") which is still in service today.

Right here in Tulsa, the Nordam Group employs about 650 Okies making modernization and maintenance modifications to the BUFF which is a direct descendent of the B-29.

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/508/eeeeeeeeeeeb52acp9.png (http://imageshack.us)

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/7166/insane7zopp6.jpg

Breadburner
8/6/2010, 06:58 AM
Quote from the Mayor of Hiroshima..."What was that".....

Ardmore_Sooner
8/6/2010, 08:07 AM
I've heard all kind of arguments whether dropping the bomb(s) was ethical or not. But in the end it saved American's lives. May God be with us that this never happens again to anyone, anywhere.

picasso
8/6/2010, 08:21 AM
We saw the Enola Gay exhibited in DC back in circa '96, right after the goat blood had been thrown on it.
Thanks to those bastards you couldn't get close to it.

XingTheRubicon
8/6/2010, 08:42 AM
We haven't had a military attack on US soil since then. Sometimes lessons have to be learned.

Okla-homey
8/6/2010, 08:51 AM
We haven't had a military attack on US soil since then. Sometimes lessons have to be learned.

Huh? WTF was 9/11?

Breadburner
8/6/2010, 08:55 AM
Huh? WTF was 9/11?

Did you miss the part that said Military....

texaspokieokie
8/6/2010, 08:58 AM
dropping those 2 bombs saved not only US lives, but also Japanese lives.

another month or 2 of bombing with conventional bombs would've killed
many more on the ground. after that, a ground invasion would've kept killing until there was a surrender; & the Japanese just wouldn't quit.

the ball was in their court; they had to surrender.

also, if war had lasted a while longer, the russkys would've gone into Japan. ask the Krauts how that worked out. Stalin was as bad as Hitler, if not wosre.

old "Give-Em-Hell Harry" had huge balls. He's one Dem that i'd vote for if he was running today.

all is JMHO

Okla-homey
8/6/2010, 08:59 AM
Did you miss the part that said Military....

I consider the attack on the Pentagon and one of our major commerical centers to have been a military attack. The a-holes who perpetrated it weren't wearing uniforms, but covert operators rarely do.

Half a Hundred
8/6/2010, 09:05 AM
The atomic bombings had to be done, and watching The Pacific/reading Leckie and Sledge's memoirs further reinforced this position. As dangerous as releasing the nuclear genie has been, it has prevented another WWII-scale conflict. I don't think we can overestimate how much of a benefit to all of us that is. While we can celebrate that war as a great triumph, because we only took a figurative punch to the face in that one, the rest of the world experienced it for the rotten meat grinder that it truly was.

Oh and Homey - I'd consider those guys nothing more than mass murderers, because I don't think we should give them any more credit than the lowest thug stewing at the bottom of a dank prison cell. Calling them military operators gives them a legitimacy that they simply didn't deserve.

picasso
8/6/2010, 09:06 AM
This was a good read:

http://img1.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/n10/n51647.jpg

Leroy Lizard
8/6/2010, 11:17 AM
The atomic bombings had to be done, and watching The Pacific/reading Leckie and Sledge's memoirs further reinforced this position. As dangerous as releasing the nuclear genie has been, it has prevented another WWII-scale conflict. I don't think we can overestimate how much of a benefit to all of us that is. While we can celebrate that war as a great triumph, because we only took a figurative punch to the face in that one, the rest of the world experienced it for the rotten meat grinder that it truly was.

Oh and Homey - I'd consider those guys nothing more than mass murderers, because I don't think we should give them any more credit than the lowest thug stewing at the bottom of a dank prison cell. Calling them military operators gives them a legitimacy that they simply didn't deserve.

I think creating the bomb released the nuclear genie. If we hadn't dropped it on Hiroshima, it would have increased our chances of dropping it on someone else. Maybe the world needed to see the effects to take the horrors seriously.

olevetonahill
8/6/2010, 11:24 AM
dropping those 2 bombs saved not only US lives, but also Japanese lives.

another month or 2 of bombing with conventional bombs would've killed
many more on the ground. after that, a ground invasion would've kept killing until there was a surrender; & the Japanese just wouldn't quit.

the ball was in their court; they had to surrender.

also, if war had lasted a while longer, the russkys would've gone into Japan. ask the Krauts how that worked out. Stalin was as bad as Hitler, if not wosre.

old "Give-Em-Hell Harry" had huge balls. He's one Dem that i'd vote for if he was running today.

all is JMHO

What HE said

Ive heard they expected a Million American Casualties if we Invaded
How much more Japanese Military and Civilians would have died ?

MR2-Sooner86
8/6/2010, 12:06 PM
Ive heard they expected a Million American Casualties if we Invaded
How much more Japanese Military and Civilians would have died ?

People complain about morality of the atomic bombs but if anybody has studied, it would have been bad folks. I mean, the Normandy campaign would have looked like a cake walk compared to this.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Operation_Downfall_-_Map.jpg

The following "special weapons" were established on southern Kyushu.
Kamikazes -- 2,100 army planes and 2,700 navy planes.
Baku - suicide missile carried by a bomber.
Mini-subs, each with 2 torpedoes, 500 were building.
Fleet submarines -- rearm the 57 remaining that had been dedicated to resupply of outposts.
Kaiten - suicide torpedoes with a 20 mile range.
Shinyo - suicide motorboats. The army had 1-man, 17 foot motorboats. The navy had 2-man, 22 foot boats.
The largest surviving warships were destroyers that were prepared for suicidal attack on the invasion convoys.
On the land, human mines in which soldiers had explosives strapped to their bodies and were to crawl under a tank. Other explosives were packed with a suction cup to be attached to the side of a tank. And shaped charges on a long pole were to be detonated on the side of a tank.
Japanese paratroopers were to attack Okinawa to disrupt flight operations during the invasion period. (http://www.ww2pacific.com/downfall.html)

This implied that a 90-day Olympic campaign would cost 456,000 casualties, including 109,000 dead or missing. If Coronet took another 90 days, the combined cost would be 1,200,000 casualties, with 267,000 fatalities.
A study done by Adm. Nimitz's staff in May estimated 49,000 casualties in the first 30 days, including 5,000 at sea. A study done by Gen. MacArthur's staff in June estimated 23,000 in the first 30 days and 125,000 after 120 days. When these figures were questioned by Gen. Marshall, MacArthur submitted a revised estimate of 105,000, in part by deducting wounded men able to return to duty.
In a conference with President Truman on June 18, Marshall, taking Luzon as the best model for Olympic, thought the Americans would suffer 31,000 casualties in the first 30 days (and ultimately 20% of Japanese casualties, which implied a total of 70,000 casualties). Adm. Leahy, more impressed by Okinawa, thought the American forces would suffer a 35% casuality rate (implying an ultimate toll of 268,000). Adm. King, thought that casualties in the first 30 days would fall between Luzon and Okinawa, i.e. between 31,000 and 41,000.
Of these estimates, only Nimitz's included losses of the forces at sea, though in the Battle of Okinawa kamikazes had inflicted 1.78 fatalities/sortie, and the troop transports off Kyushu would be much more exposed. Moreover, all these estimates were done using intelligence that grossly underestimated Japanese strength being gathered for the battle of Kyushu in numbers of soldiers and kamikazes, by factors of at least three.
A study done for Navy Secretary Henry Stimson's staff by William Shockley estimated that conquering Japan would cost 1.7 – 4 million American casualties, including 400, – 800,000 fatalities, and five to ten million Japanese fatalities. The key assumption was large-scale participation by civilians in the defense of Japan. (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Operation_Downfall)

In addition, the Japanese had organized the Patriotic Citizens Fighting Corps—which included all
healthy men aged 15–60 and women 17–40—to perform combat support, and ultimately combat jobs.
Weapons, training, and uniforms were generally lacking: some men were armed with nothing better than
muzzle-loading muskets, longbows, or bamboo spears; nevertheless, they were expected to make do
with what they had. One mobilized high school girl, Yukiko Kasai, found herself issued an awl and told,
"Even killing one American soldier will do. … You must aim for the abdomen." (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CDAQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.upa.pdx.edu%2FIMS%2Fcurrentpr ojects%2FTAHv3%2FContent%2FPDFs%2FOperation_Downfa ll.pdf&ei=QkBcTP6dAsSSONrp0ZUP&usg=AFQjCNFUgw3N-pxUD8a6vwAoAoFtdQJgeQ)

SicEmBaylor
8/6/2010, 12:45 PM
We should have dropped a third on the nip sons of bitches just to make sure they got the mother f'in point.

SicEmBaylor
8/6/2010, 12:50 PM
What HE said

Ive heard they expected a Million American Casualties if we Invaded
How much more Japanese Military and Civilians would have died ?

A lot. Every man, woman, and child on those islands were arming themselves. They were doing everything from learning how to strap grenades onto themselves and run toward GI's to making bamboo sticks for the kids so that when they offered them candy they could stab them. Every inch of the Japanese islands would have been an absolute blood bath.

Considering the way they treated US POWs, they deserved a lot worse than having a couple of nukes exploded overhead. The sad thing is that today both cities have "peace memorials" and the entire thing is remembered in such a way that would make you think they were the victims in the war. The Japanese, due I think in large part to MacArthur's post-war governance, have never really been truly held accountable for their actions during the war in the same way the Germans have.

German companies are STILL paying out reparations to Jewish groups, but I don't think one single g-damned Jap car company has paid a dime to American POW's they used as a slave labor force.

**** them.

swardboy
8/6/2010, 01:01 PM
Okla-homey: And what did you learn today Swardboy?

Swardie: I never realized the Japanese Emperor specifically mentioned the bomb as a reason to capitulate in order to save Japanese slaughter...CASE CLOSED, it was the humane thing to do by the mouth of our enemy to his people!!!!!

SicEmBaylor
8/6/2010, 01:09 PM
Also, if he hadn't dropped the bomb then it's unlikely that I would be alive today.

Fat Man and Little Boy, FTW.

SicEmBaylor
8/6/2010, 01:17 PM
See how happy I am with Fat Man? :D
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs261.snc1/8831_166295788483_511923483_2662667_1106001_n.jpg

ndpruitt03
8/6/2010, 05:21 PM
Let's say we don't drop that bomb and we have a war with Japan for another I don't know decade maybe. How many more lives would have been lost on both sides. Then after that lets say Russia comes up with a bomb and we would be so depleted with a US military from a long campaign in Japan. You think Russia would have been scared to bomb the US? Those 2 bombs cemented the US as a power and saved millions of lives.

Leroy Lizard
8/6/2010, 05:46 PM
See how happy I am with Fat Man? :D
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs261.snc1/8831_166295788483_511923483_2662667_1106001_n.jpg

It's amazing how they pieced that bomb back together after the explosion.

SicEmBaylor
8/6/2010, 05:56 PM
It's amazing how they pieced that bomb back together after the explosion.

Isn't it though? And obviously the residual radiation has done absolutely NO damage to me over the years. :D

(It's a replica)

ouwasp
8/6/2010, 11:40 PM
I've been reading Hell To Pay by DM Giangreco off and on over the last couple months. It is about Operations Olympic and Coronet, decision making, possible outcomes. Ghastly.

Thank goodness the a-bombs extinguished this... terrible thing.

btw, I read somewhere that Oliver Stone was considering making a movie about the bombings. Can you imagine how bad he'll make the US look?

SoonerKnight
8/6/2010, 11:59 PM
The funny thing is a few years ago I was watching a documentary about the Hiroshima atomic bombing. Before we dropped the big one we warned the Japanese. They did not belive that we had the big one and ignored us. When we did drop it they though all that is all you got can't do that again. Then we bombed Nagasaki and told them surrender because we have hundreds of these. In reality if they had not surrenedered on August 15, 1945 we had no more nukes.

I went to Nagasaki while station in Japan. I've seen the museum and it is amazing and makes you think. I really did not feel sorry for them though. It had to be tough for the tour guide here we were a bunch of American service members and half his family had been obliterated by the bomb and even to this day they have people suffering from illnesses that is not common elsewhere.

SicEmBaylor
8/7/2010, 12:11 AM
It had to be tough for the tour guide here we were a bunch of American service members and half his family had been obliterated by the bomb and even to this day they have people suffering from illnesses that is not common elsewhere.

Boo f'ing hoo.

Curly Bill
8/7/2010, 12:18 AM
Boo f'ing hoo.

If the Japs didn't want to be bombed (atomic or otherwise) they shouldn't have picked a fight with us. As far as I'm concerned if you walk up and sucker punch someone he's pretty much in his right to do anything he wants to you in repayment.

We kinda did that on a larger scale. :D

PDXsooner
8/7/2010, 12:48 AM
If the Japs didn't want to be bombed (atomic or otherwise) they shouldn't have picked a fight with us. As far as I'm concerned if you walk up and sucker punch someone he's pretty much in his right to do anything he wants to you in repayment.

We kinda did that on a larger scale. :D

Yeah, I know where you're coming from. But, did the "Japs" really pick a fight with us? I mean, how many of the people torched by the A-Bomb had anything to do with picking a fight? I'm not saying it wasn't justified, I just have a little trouble with the way you frame it.

Curly Bill
8/7/2010, 12:49 AM
Yeah, I know where you're coming from. But, did the "Japs" really pick a fight with us? I mean, how many of the people torched by the A-Bomb had anything to do with picking a fight? I'm not saying it wasn't justified, I just have a little trouble with the way you frame it.

I know what you're saying too, but sometimes a people pay for the sins of their leaders. It may not be fair, but it is what it is, and it's not new.

SicEmBaylor
8/7/2010, 01:00 AM
Yeah, I know where you're coming from. But, did the "Japs" really pick a fight with us? I mean, how many of the people torched by the A-Bomb had anything to do with picking a fight? I'm not saying it wasn't justified, I just have a little trouble with the way you frame it.

Actually, they had everything to do with it. Japan was not a case of, "blame the leaders not the people." The Japanese people were wholly and totally to blame. These were a people who were so totally devoted to their Emperor and the cause of war that they committed suicide in the face of defeat...think about that for a minute and what it takes for an entire culture to have that mentality.

They committed an untold number of atrocities against the Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos, the British, and us. They used our POWs as slave labor and the civilian Japanese didn't treat them any better than the military did.

When they are forced to pay reparations for their atrocities in the same way Germany is then I might start to change my opinion of those people a little bit. Until then they can all rot in hell.

ndpruitt03
8/7/2010, 01:01 AM
Why justify something when you are at war with a country? I'm against war in general and I think we need to get all of our troops out of wherever we are right now. But when you are at war you play it to win it. The bombs did that.

Leroy Lizard
8/7/2010, 01:05 AM
Yeah, I know where you're coming from. But, did the "Japs" really pick a fight with us? I mean, how many of the people torched by the A-Bomb had anything to do with picking a fight? I'm not saying it wasn't justified, I just have a little trouble with the way you frame it.

If they cheered the news of Pearl Harbor, they're fair game.

Crucifax Autumn
8/7/2010, 01:17 AM
Why justify something when you are at war with a country? I'm against war in general and I think we need to get all of our troops out of wherever we are right now. But when you are at war you play it to win it. The bombs did that.

Is that how you feel about terrorists who consider themselves at war with us?

Why, as a society, do we think that some acts of war are acceptable and others are not, particularly when framed by the points made in this discussion: Civilians pay for the "crimes" of their leaderrs? I thought the reason we found terrorists despicable is that they target civilians in order to win through fear and intimidation.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but I am interested in the reply.

Leroy Lizard
8/7/2010, 01:21 AM
Why, as a society, do we think that some acts of war are acceptable and others are not...

To answer that question, you first have to answer, "Who won?"

If Team X wins, then as far as Team X is concerned the acts that Team X committed are perfectly understandable; on the other hand, the acts that Team Y committed are atrocities.

And that's been pretty true throughout history.* Which is one reason why it is so important to win.


* Exception: Spanish Civil War, in which the losers got to write history and paint themselves as peace-lovers. Bah!

Crucifax Autumn
8/7/2010, 01:24 AM
You actually have a good point there.

Leroy Lizard
8/7/2010, 01:26 AM
You actually have a good point there.


You may want to check your spek page for messages.

PDXsooner
8/7/2010, 10:56 AM
This is a fascinating example of human rationalization.

Leroy Lizard
8/7/2010, 11:56 AM
This is a fascinating example of human rationalization.

And by "this" you mean....?

Okla-homey
8/7/2010, 12:01 PM
This is a fascinating example of human rationalization.

It is in fact extremely rational to prosecute wars against the enemy's war-making potential with as much violence and rigor possible. They end quicker that way and lives are saved on both sides. One of my military heroes and a great American named William Tecumseh Sherman taught us that.

Put another way, if you destroy his ability to supply his troops, and his civilian population is suffering, your enemy will inevitably sue for peace. Radical Islamics excepted of course who consider it a duty and privilege to die in jihad for Allah. Although as we've seen in Iraq, older and cooler heads will eventually prevail over the wild-eyed young ones if the activities of the zealots continually result in the raining down of hurt on all.

MR2-Sooner86
8/7/2010, 02:36 PM
I'll give some people a little insight into the Japanese mentality when it came to surrendering.

Fact, women grabbed their children and babies and jumped off cliffs to avoid surrendering to the Americans during several island hopping campaigns.

Fact, the Japanese were asked to surrender in the Potsdam Declaration and warned that if they didn't there would be consequences of the "prompt and utter destruction" of Japan.

Fact, the Supreme Council for Directing the War was split on whether to surrender. The military was adamantly against it. It only happened because Prime Minister Suzuki had managed to convince the Emperor to take the unprecedented step of speaking out at a council meeting. The Emepror ordered them to surrender. Their was also a group of young officers in the nation who often assassinated those who publicly spoke out for surrender. The group known as the 'young tigers' was a number of younger officers who even after the atomic bombings planned on a coup to kidnap the emperor and prevent him from releasing his statement on radio.

Fact, Japanese Radio officials planned on sending out a message demanding all forces begin a general offensive on the allies, though it was stopped just before broadcast by several ministers. The Kampetei, the Japanese secret police, also was against the surrender and made it clear they would support a military rebellion.

Fact, on August 18th several officers murdered the commander of the imperial guard and attempted to seize the emperor to prevent him from broadcasting yet again. They also started a series of attempted assassinations which luckily failed, leaving them out to dry.

Fact, even after surrender their were isolated incidents of kamikaze attacks on allied shipping.

Leroy Lizard
8/7/2010, 03:38 PM
I'll give some people a little insight into the Japanese mentality when it came to surrendering.

Fact, women grabbed their children and babies and jumped off cliffs to avoid surrendering to the Americans during several island hopping campaigns.

Fact, the Japanese were asked to surrender in the Potsdam Declaration and warned that if they didn't there would be consequences of the "prompt and utter destruction" of Japan.

Fact, the Supreme Council for Directing the War was split on whether to surrender. The military was adamantly against it. It only happened because Prime Minister Suzuki had managed to convince the Emperor to take the unprecedented step of speaking out at a council meeting. The Emepror ordered them to surrender. Their was also a group of young officers in the nation who often assassinated those who publicly spoke out for surrender. The group known as the 'young tigers' was a number of younger officers who even after the atomic bombings planned on a coup to kidnap the emperor and prevent him from releasing his statement on radio.

Fact, Japanese Radio officials planned on sending out a message demanding all forces begin a general offensive on the allies, though it was stopped just before broadcast by several ministers. The Kampetei, the Japanese secret police, also was against the surrender and made it clear they would support a military rebellion.

Fact, on August 18th several officers murdered the commander of the imperial guard and attempted to seize the emperor to prevent him from broadcasting yet again. They also started a series of attempted assassinations which luckily failed, leaving them out to dry.

Fact, even after surrender their were isolated incidents of kamikaze attacks on allied shipping.

Fact: Furthering the war any longer would have allowed Stalin to get his hooks into more people.

Fact: That's a bad thing.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
8/7/2010, 03:42 PM
[QUOTE=Breadburner;2921037]Did you miss the part that said Military....[/QUOTECut him some slack. He votes for democrats.

stoopified
8/7/2010, 05:08 PM
Until then they can all rot in hell.This reminds of what Bull Nalsey said after returning with his carriers to Pearl Harbor after the attack; When we get done with e Japs the only place Japanese will be spoken is in HELL.

Leroy Lizard
8/7/2010, 05:48 PM
This reminds of what Bull Nalsey said after returning with his carriers to Pearl Harbor after the attack; When we get done with e Japs the only place Japanese will be spoken is in HELL.

Good ole' Bull Nalsey and the e-Japs. :)

SoonerStormchaser
8/7/2010, 09:19 PM
Homey...that pic you have of the mushroom cloud is from Nagasaki. Trust me, I've been to both locations and their respective museums...

Leroy Lizard
8/7/2010, 10:55 PM
Homey...that pic you have of the mushroom cloud is from Nagasaki. Trust me, I've been to both locations and their respective museums...

Seeking the radiation warmth?

StoopTroup
8/8/2010, 06:29 AM
Is that how you feel about terrorists who consider themselves at war with us?

Why, as a society, do we think that some acts of war are acceptable and others are not, particularly when framed by the points made in this discussion: Civilians pay for the "crimes" of their leaderrs? I thought the reason we found terrorists despicable is that they target civilians in order to win through fear and intimidation.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but I am interested in the reply.

Nick's not a fighter....he's a lover...:D

Xfi4s8cjLFI

texaspokieokie
8/8/2010, 11:04 AM
brief comment,not trying to be a "wise-guy".

i think the engines on a b-29 are "radials" & not "rotaries".
to me, rotary is what some mazdas have.

later b-29s were modified to become b-50s. then they got 4360s which had
4 rows x 7 cylinders. hp was about 3500.

OANG had c-97s when i was a member, & those planes had 4360s.

SicEmBaylor
8/8/2010, 01:02 PM
brief comment,not trying to be a "wise-guy".

i think the engines on a b-29 are "radials" & not "rotaries".
to me, rotary is what some mazdas have.

later b-29s were modified to become b-50s. then they got 4360s which had
4 rows x 7 cylinders. hp was about 3500.

OANG had c-97s when i was a member, & those planes had 4360s.

They were radial engines. I don't know WTF a radial engine is, but I know they were radial engines.

texaspokieokie
8/8/2010, 01:12 PM
they are much different than other recips & can best be understood by looking @ the picture in the 1st post. radial because the cylinders are spaced on a circle. one is totally upside down
on the 4360s, there were 4 rows of 7 banks. 28 cylinders, each with approx.
150 cu.in. the most unique thing is that there is 1 master rod (in each row)
& the other 6 rods connect to the master rod.

Okla-homey
8/8/2010, 01:40 PM
they are much different than other recips & can best be understood by looking @ the picture in the 1st post. radial because the cylinders are spaced on a circle. one is totally upside down
on the 4360s, there were 4 rows of 7 banks. 28 cylinders, each with approx.
150 cu.in. the most unique thing is that there is 1 master rod (in each row)
& the other 6 rods connect to the master rod.

and as I understand it, when those things occasionally threw a rod, you simply prayed it was on the outboard side of the engine. :eek:

texaspokieokie
8/8/2010, 03:14 PM
yep, that would be much better.

remembering when i was in OANG in tulsa, when checking out an engine,
if it had any bad jugs, we'd hope for 7 bad ones. if there was 7 we'd change the whole engine, if less than 7 we had to change just the bad ones. easier to replace whole engine than to change even one jug.