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View Full Version : The reason it isnt a big deal that Lebron went to Miami



Collier11
7/19/2010, 06:02 PM
From ESPN.com


Michael Jordan has weighed in on the LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh "SuperFriends" team in Miami:

"There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry, called up Magic and said, 'Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team,' " Jordan said after playing in a celebrity golf tournament in Nevada. "But that's ... things are different. I can't say that's a bad thing. It's an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys."


In so many ways, Michael Jordan is the most appropriate person in the world to comment on LeBron James and his legacy, but not for the reasons you might expect.

He is helping to solve one of the biggest mysteries in sports.

The question is: When James announced that he was taking his talents to South Beach, why did he instantly become the guy sports fans love to hate? What's so reprehensible about joining a good team?

He's the man

Michael Jordan was, is, and will always be the man. Yes, in italics.

You don't need me to define that, but just for fun: It means essentially the most aggressive, victorious, macho, indomitable player in the sport. The most feared, and the most fearless.

This utter lack of restraint, in the face of any challenges, is no small part of how Jordan inspires us.

Hell no I don't need help.

It's a real and valid way to view the game. You have to respect the sheer number of players, former players, executives and coaches who see the game through this lens. The best player is the man. Basically, that's the guy who, of the few superstars who produce in huge numbers and win a lot of games, is most fearless and ferocious.

This is often measured in terms of being willing to shoot with the game on the line.

When people heard that James was teaming up with Wade and Bosh, though ... wow. You know how men have this reputation as not being willing to pull over and ask for directions?

Hell no I don't need help.

Jordan, Barkley and others are making fun of James -- perhaps the most biting of all of Jordan's words was "kid" -- for getting help. If the whole idea is to show that you're the baddest man on the planet, what do we care about all these SuperFriends? (Similarly, Jordan said the other day that Bryant was the best player in the NBA. He's the most fearless, that's for sure.)

The problem with the critique is twofold. For one thing, he's not bad as the man. James shoots plenty with the game on the line, already produces like one of the two best players in NBA history (hitting at a better career rate than Bryant), wins a lot of games and even called himself leader of Team USA.

But more importantly, how do we know James' end goal is to be the man?

It's a team game. Jordan and Bryant are self-reliant types who didn't come naturally to the idea that crunch time ought to be played as a team. Both have had to be coached into passing with the game on the line.

But that they think like that doesn't mean we all have to go along. In your personal life, do you find it true that real men don't pass the ball, or share, or have friends, or smile or all that? The Jordan/Bryant way was one way to do it, but it's hardly the only way to get the job done.

When Jordan started passing -- to open teammates like Steve Kerr and John Paxson -- the Bulls started winning titles. Bill Russell owned basketball to the tune of 11 titles and he never thought it was his job to take the last shot. He was a different kind of "man," and won plenty.

Men who pull over and ask for directions may lose hombre points, but we all agree they waste less time driving around, right?

The man vs. the team

Sometimes you have to ask yourself what your end goal is: To win the individual sport of being the man, or the team sport of basketball? They usually go together. There's a reason Bryant and Jordan have all those championship rings.

But sometimes the best thing for basketball is to not put everything on your shoulders, and instead get some help.

Think about Kevin Garnett. There are several different really smart analyses to show that when he was in Minnesota losing all those games he was literally the best player in the NBA (the same analysis, over the last two years, would say James is that player now). If you use some kind of smart objective metrics, Garnett's is the name that comes up most from those years. But Garnett had no help! After he grew distraught with the team's endless rebuilding, the Timberwolves found him a home in Boston with some serious help in the form of Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. Even though Garnett did not play his best basketball in Boston, he did his best winning there, and the result has been a profound transformation of both how the world sees Garnett and how the city of Boston feels about basketball in the 2000s. It's a model anyone would want to copy -- a new home with talented teammates became a story of pure, unrestrained basketball joy for all involved who aren't Timberwolves fans.

Similarly, before the Lakers got Pau Gasol, Bryant was among the most unhappiest campers in NBA history and was caught on camera phone talking about the inadequacy of his teammates and his willingness to be traded. When Gasol arrived, Bryant started winning more than ever, and he was proved absolutely right that he could win a lot more with more with help.

Imagine if you will, crazy as it may sound, that back in the day, Jordan had somehow charmed Barkley or David Robinson to join the Bulls?

By the metrics of being the man, Jordan would have been a failure. Talk about pulling over to ask for directions. But Jordan would have been a better winner. He'd be more valuable to his team and his fans in every way if somehow he had pulled that off.

Hell no I don't need help.

If refusing help when it's available is the end goal, then in my mind we have cooked up one silly, old-fashioned definition of being the man.

Playing executive is smart

Jordan is affixed in our minds as the portrait of a winner, but take the long view of not just his playing days, but his life to date.

Through all the millions, the TV ads, the golf games and the casino trips, maybe there's nothing to regret.

But something funny happened in Springfield, Mass. Remember his Hall of Fame acceptance speech? Didn't we all come away from that with the news that life inside Jordan's shoes is not all peachy? He's bitter! About a lot of things! With the world's blessing to discuss whatever he wanted, Jordan mostly just spat insults.

One of the first things he brought up was the guy who built the Bulls team he won all those titles with, Jerry Krause. "Jerry’s not here," explains Jordan. "I don’t know who’d invite him. I didn’t. ... " All this bitterness, even though they won championships together!

The reason I bring this up is: Jordan proved right there and then that letting someone else build the roster for you can make you a very bitter man, even if you win six titles.

Players have the power of free agency, which, James and Wade have demonstrated, is one new way to solve that problem.

Jordan's career is widely seen as an example of why James and Wade ought not play together. It costs them both points as the man.

But you can also see Jordan's life to date as a textbook case of why building your own roster might be the smartest thing you can do, even if it isn't how things used to be done.

Collier11
7/19/2010, 06:03 PM
Again, I think the way Lebron handled the whole deal was less than ideal, he should have contacted Cleveland first to tell them, at the least. But he in no way should be criticized for not wanting to be the man and choosing winning over a personal legacy.

Maybe to him it isnt about a personal legacy.

JLEW1818
7/19/2010, 06:06 PM
There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry, called up Magic and said, 'Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team,' " Jordan said after playing in a celebrity golf tournament in Nevada. "But that's ... things are different. I can't say that's a bad thing. It's an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys."


MJ didn't want to play with the best. He wanted to beat the best.

Collier11
7/19/2010, 06:10 PM
And like MJ said, its a different era. Like I said in another thread, I didnt even like my opponents that I played in HS, but alot of the athletes these days are all buddy buddy, during and after the games.

JLEW1818
7/19/2010, 06:11 PM
MJ was buddy buddy with Charles and Ewing...... SPACE JAM BABY!!!!!!!! :D :D

Collier11
7/19/2010, 06:19 PM
Not while he played so much

JLEW1818
7/19/2010, 06:33 PM
Kobe is the same as MJ, mindset wise.

doesnt run to play with people. does not practice halfcourt shots before games like that guy, when that same guy can barley dribble when it matters.. ha ha

Lebron and Wade are way different. And in my opinion will never pass MJ and Kobe. They are not good enough shooters to do so. Great players tho.

Collier11
7/19/2010, 06:36 PM
And Kobe couldnt win until he had Paul or Shaq, plain and simple. The fact is, everyone needed other really good players with them to win, no different here.

JLEW1818
7/19/2010, 06:38 PM
yes it is different.

Kobe didn't run when shaq left. he stayed and waited.

it is different. there is a reason why Lebron was the 2 time mvp and the best regular season record, and could not lead his team to win when it mattered. There is not another person in nba history that has accomplished that failure twice.


the entire point of this is that Lebron left.

Collier11
7/19/2010, 06:42 PM
and he didnt win jack, the overriding point is that no matter how good, you dont win without help around you.

Doesnt really matter if Lebron left cus as it has been pointed out, no one wanted to play in Cleveland

JLEW1818
7/19/2010, 06:49 PM
just remember, if Lebron wins rings... he never won one without Wade !!! He had to go to a guy who already had one!!!!!!

haha.

people might say, well MJ never won without Pippen.... okay who the **** is Pippen to MJ??? not even the same category, not even on the same globe.

Kobe's first 3, Shaq was the Finals MVP. But Kobe played a great 1-B player.

Kobe has now won 2 with Gasol, and 2 Finals MVP. now remember how bad Boston destroyed Gasol in 2008? He made adjustments and got better.


Lebron may not even be the best player on his team... what if they win a finals in the next couple of seasons and Wade is the Finals MVP...

cool lebron u got your rings, but they way you went about doing it does matter when you are talking about the ELITE OF ELITE.

That is where the nitpicking comes into play.

Collier11
7/19/2010, 06:53 PM
I dont think Lebron cares if he doesnt win Finals MVP, he wants rings. I dont think it really matters, when it all comes down to it, they still have to go out and win, nothing is guaranteed.

And whether someone came to them or they went to someone, the fact is that every great winner had a really good player along side

JLEW1818
7/19/2010, 06:55 PM
Tim Duncan gets respect, but not nearly what he deserves.

that dude stayed in San Antonio, Texas. and dominated.

Collier11
7/19/2010, 07:03 PM
He had two All Stars with him, Ginobli was a freak in the playoffs and actually deserved the finals MVP over Timmy one year title run. Now, they werent on the level of Gasol or Wade but they were pretty darn good

Collier11
7/19/2010, 07:05 PM
and the reason Tim Duncan doesnt get a ton of hype is cus he is an "out of the spotlight" type guy who is very good fundamental but not flashy at all

JLEW1818
7/19/2010, 08:54 PM
remember now, Manu and Parker were "spurs draft picks" .. not free agents that came to help or demanded by Duncan in a trade.

Collier11
7/19/2010, 09:28 PM
What does that matter? The point remains that he had good players around him

JLEW1818
7/19/2010, 09:43 PM
Lebron had good players around him too. They did have the best record 2 years in a row.... maybe super lebron was just that damn good!!!! where he could lead his team to the most wins twice in a row!!!!

all you do is make excuses for the guy. Thank god 98% of the world has stopped doing this for him.


Spurs had good players around Duncan .. yes.

Duncan's 3rd ring. Parker in his 3rd year season, Ginobili in his 2nd.

Parker late 1st round. Ginobili late second round..... i guess the rest of the NBA didn't think these guys were that good. Or they look great because Tim Duncan is the best PowerForward ever.

I'm just saying its not like Parker and Manu were HUGE draft picks at the time. They developed into the system around Tim Duncan, a total player.

Collier11
7/19/2010, 09:54 PM
when Mo Williams is the 2nd best player on the team, that aint sayin much my friend...

and really good players get mis-drafted all the time

JLEW1818
7/19/2010, 10:00 PM
all u people were saying the team was fine, the last 2 Aprils.

that's what just makes me mad.

Collier11
7/19/2010, 10:05 PM
I never said he had really good players around him that I remember, I thought they were good enough despite the roster but in reality, Mo Williams is a borderline AS player WITH Lebron, Jamison was washed up and soft, etc...

Regular season basketball and Playoff basketball are two completely different animals and the Cavs werent good enough in the playoffs. If you dont think Lebron completely carried that team though you are crazy

stoops the eternal pimp
7/20/2010, 08:31 AM
When a team can have the best record 2 years in a row and then get taken out of the playoffs early in those years, its not a talent issue..its a toughness and mental issue

Scott D
7/20/2010, 01:17 PM
yes it is different.

Kobe didn't run when shaq left. he stayed and waited.

To be completely honest, Kobe wanted out when he discovered that in the post-Shaq era the Kobe way wasn't the winning way, until Mitch Kupchek went back to the formula that made the Kobe Lakers successful by obtaining Pau Gasol.

on another note, and btw, I think that article made a good point with the Kevin Garnett comparison in regards to LeBron. jlew, do you think less of Julius Erving because he was traded before he won any titles? Oscar Robertson had to be traded from Cincy to Milwaukee before he won a title.

Honestly, I think perhaps being the 'most hated' guy in the NBA might be the kick in the pants that LeBron James needs at this point in his career.

Sooner04
7/20/2010, 01:24 PM
jlew, do you think less of Julius Erving because he was traded before he won any titles?
huh?

Scott D
7/20/2010, 01:29 PM
I'm not counting ABA titles he won with the Nets...but I'm also figuring enough that jlew didn't know that Doc was essentially sold to the 76ers because the Knicks were dicks.

Sooner04
7/20/2010, 01:32 PM
That's how I remember it: sold. I knew you couldn't be pulling some old Virginia Squires stuff out of your hat.

It is a big deal that LeBron went to Miami because we've been force fed the greatness of him. It's a sham now, at least in my opinion. If you're losing games in the playoffs when you score 30 then maybe you should be scoring 40.

I saw what he did to the Pistons a few years ago, and I thought it was one of the finest performances I'd ever seen or would EVER see. That guy doesn't exist anymore. That guy got too busy being King James.

Scott D
7/20/2010, 01:37 PM
I've got no beef if people want to hate that even LeBron heard the force fed hype so much that even he began to believe it. If anything, I think him "running" to the Miami Heat is in itself a humbling experience because he's been forced to admit to himself that he's not the entity that ESPN and Nike have made him out to be. But on a bright note, I guess it's better that his humbling experience be something like that than how Jellybean's boy was forced to humble himself.

JLEW1818
7/20/2010, 06:11 PM
he is just not a MJ... not even a Kobe.

But still a great fantastic basketball player.



It worked out for KG getting traded. But still not a Tim Duncan.

KG is a top 25 player

Duncan is a top 10 player


But yes, in conclusion, Lebron's Legacy (if he ever gets one) will be hit by him running away to play with 2 All-Stars.

badger
7/21/2010, 09:19 AM
Bron Bron was in Cleveland for seven years. Maybe if he had a little more ownership in the team's success outside rings and endorsements, like downtown development or other real estate, or even part ownership like Jordan had with the Wizards, maybe then he would have had more reason to stay.

I dunno. Don't care. They're now the Yankees of the NBA and the team for every other team to circle on their calendar

My Opinion Matters
7/21/2010, 12:17 PM
Oh good, another Lebron thread.