If push comes to stab: Wilson or Heupel? [Archive]

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oudavid1

7/16/2010, 03:43 PM

Ok, I love Josh and Kevin

but my co-worker posted me this question the other day

Now that Josh is a wanted O-Coordinator, Should we tell Kevin to go or risk losing Josh to other schools

My argument is for KW because he proved himself 10 fold with 2008 offense, and Josh is an OU grad and won it all with us so i think it would be harder for him to leave. If we let Kevin go Northwestern or UNC would pick him up ASAP.

your thoughts?

TahoeSOONER

7/16/2010, 03:47 PM

Tough question.

KW for the next two years and then ask me.

Heupel sure can develop QBs. Great young football mind but I'd have to go with KW for now.

NormanPride

7/16/2010, 03:55 PM

Wilson. I love Josh, but he's never been in charge of an offense before. Wilson gets a lot of crap for last year, but in the same breath people talk about all the injuries.

Mad Dog Madsen

7/16/2010, 03:57 PM

KW for now.

cheezyq

7/16/2010, 04:07 PM

Wilson. Josh can go learn the ropes on someone else's clock and come back here when Wilson moves on. As much as I dig Josh, I wouldn't put an annual MNC contender's hopes on the shoulders of someone as unproven as he is right now.

Collier11

7/16/2010, 04:09 PM

I want Josh teaching our QBs for the next 10 years but im certainly not ready to give up on KW who has proven hisself to be a great Off Coord

PLaw

7/16/2010, 05:00 PM

Assume KW goes the way of Leach, Mangino, and Long at some point in the near term (3 yrs). Who is next in line - Gundy or Josh?

BOOMER

Collier11

7/16/2010, 05:04 PM

Josh

Sooner-N-KS

7/16/2010, 05:31 PM

Sooner-N-KS

7/16/2010, 05:33 PM

Assume KW goes the way of Leach, Mangino, and Long at some point in the near term (3 yrs). Who is next in line - Gundy or Josh?

BOOMER

I would expect Gundy to need to go to another school to get OC experience, but that's just opinion. He's kind of one of the coaches you don't hear a lot about. Maybe Stoops is big on him though.

Collier11

7/16/2010, 05:33 PM

Gundy has been a good RBs coach, that is where he needs to stay for now

goingoneight

7/16/2010, 05:45 PM

No BCS conference school wants KW as head coach, and he seems to think he's too good to take a non-BCS school job.

Stoops has never fired a coach so KW isn't going anywhere until Stoops does.

I vote Josh.

I'll ask you in yet another thread... who should Bob have fired so far? You don't really think KW should go, do you? If you do... tell me where the grass is greener. And at what point in time did a BCS school come out and say they didn't want Wilson? Teams that fork out millions to steal someone else's head coach don't count.

Aaaaand... go.

Collier11

7/16/2010, 05:54 PM

why bother, people like that are clueless anyway

TXBOOMER

7/16/2010, 06:03 PM

I want an experienced OC if and when KW leaves. Josh can go get his hard knocks elsewhere.

TahoeSOONER

7/16/2010, 06:20 PM

Josh is getting top notch experience at Oklahoma and I certainly don't want him going anywhere.

Heupel is everything good about Oklahoma football and I hope to seem him take the program over after Bob leaves, in twenty years.

Leroy Lizard

7/16/2010, 07:05 PM

Wilson.

Sooner-N-KS

7/16/2010, 07:11 PM

I'll ask you in yet another thread... who should Bob have fired so far? You don't really think KW should go, do you? If you do... tell me where the grass is greener. And at what point in time did a BCS school come out and say they didn't want Wilson? Teams that fork out millions to steal someone else's head coach don't count.

Aaaaand... go.

Chuck Long should have been sent packing for sure. Anyone else? I'm not sure.

Kevin Wilson does not adjust and adapt. He get's his game plan, and he's going to stick with it regardless of what the defense does. He almost always does great with teams he's supposed to beat unless he gets cocky like he did with BYU. But teams with great defenses he doesn't have that great of a record.

The meerkat offense was great for an experienced 2008 offense. But that same offense caused problems with confusion and penalties in 2009 that could have been avoided with a regular huddle.

Reward him for beating up on the little guys if you want. But I'd like to see him beat teams like Boise St., WVU, Texas (more than 25% of the time), and Florida. No, we're not going to win all of the big games, but it would be nice to win some of them.

Should KW be fired? He should if he can't learn to make adjustments during the game based on his personnel and what the defense is doing.

soonergirlNeugene

7/16/2010, 07:16 PM

Stoops should do whatever he can to keep Josh around and happy. Maybe give him access to more of the offense while retaining KW on as OC?

Leroy Lizard

7/16/2010, 07:35 PM

Chuck Long should have been sent packing for sure. Anyone else? I'm not sure.

Kevin Wilson does not adjust and adapt. He get's his game plan, and he's going to stick with it regardless of what the defense does. He almost always does great with teams he's supposed to beat unless he gets cocky like he did with BYU. But teams with great defenses he doesn't have that great of a record.

The meerkat offense was great for an experienced 2008 offense. But that same offense caused problems with confusion and penalties in 2009 that could have been avoided with a regular huddle.

Reward him for beating up on the little guys if you want. But I'd like to see him beat teams like Boise St., WVU, Texas (more than 25% of the time), and Florida. No, we're not going to win all of the big games, but it would be nice to win some of them.

Should KW be fired? He should if he can't learn to make adjustments during the game based on his personnel and what the defense is doing.

WVU was a defensive collapse. There wasn't much wrong with KW's game calling against BSU. I thought his gamecalling was fine against Florida; he can't be blamed for dropped passes.

As for the other games, you can't win them all.

BTW, the "he can't adjust" is levied against every OC in football after a loss. Somehow, the OC is supposed to do something magical at halftime.

Collier11

7/16/2010, 07:36 PM

Chuck Long should have been sent packing for sure. Anyone else? I'm not sure.

His offenses scored 39, 35, 43, and 27 pts per game (with avg QB play and a bad oline), he coached 3 Heisman finalists, a Heisman Winner, and helped us to 2 natl title games.

Kevin Wilson does not adjust and adapt. He get's his game plan, and he's going to stick with it regardless of what the defense does. He almost always does great with teams he's supposed to beat unless he gets cocky like he did with BYU. But teams with great defenses he doesn't have that great of a record.

I guess youve had access to the gameplans and in game adjustments?

The meerkat offense was great for an experienced 2008 offense. But that same offense caused problems with confusion and penalties in 2009 that could have been avoided with a regular huddle.

Reward him for beating up on the little guys if you want. But I'd like to see him beat teams like Boise St. scored 42 points, WVU scored 25 points despite numerous false starts and turnovers and being without several starters, Texas (more than 25% of the time) scored 35 one year and lost, and Florida did he blow the assignments on the goalline or drop the passes that likely led to us losing the natl title?. No, we're not going to win all of the big games, but it would be nice to win some of them.

Should KW be fired? He should if he can't learn to make adjustments during the game based on his personnel and what the defense is doing.

Clueless

Eielson

7/16/2010, 07:41 PM

Clueless

This coming from the same person defending KW and Chuck "third and" Long.

Collier11

7/16/2010, 08:04 PM

Ive got facts and stats to back me up, what do you got. I mean we are talking about the two O-coordinators who ran two of the highest powered offenses in OU history, one of them being the highest powered offense in NCAA history, right?

Based on your past arguments youve got nothing, this will be interesting.

Ah, lets take a little deeper look real quick though at the two biggest criticisms of KW and Chuck

The Sugar Bowl, many say that if we keep running the ball we win and Chuck screwed it up. Well, that may be true but I also know that the 3rd down pass to Clayton was just barely tipped and even with that, he still almost caught it to tie up the game. The 4th down play was as perfect of a call as you could possibly have and Jason overthrew it.

Against Florida people like you gripe about the goalline calls to Chris Brown. Well, on two of those plays we have a guy flat out miss a block or we walk into the endzone.

So clueless people like you gripe that the plays didnt work when in reality they did, our players just didnt execute them

These are the same people who gripe about the hook n ladder against Boise, well BV had the perfect D called and our guy left his lane which allowed the long play.

Let me give you a tip, before you post anymore on this board, especially about sports, try knowing what you are talking about, it will help your cause

When you dont bring facts to the table and just want to argue, you are just another Leroy

Leroy Lizard

7/16/2010, 08:21 PM

When you dont bring facts to the table and just want to argue, you are just another Leroy

Whoa! What was that all about?

Collier11

7/16/2010, 08:23 PM

you been griping about me calling you out in a thread that was a joke so I figured id call you out for real to make you feel better :D

Leroy Lizard

7/16/2010, 08:44 PM

you been griping about me calling you out in a thread that was a joke so I figured id call you out for real to make you feel better :D

Sounds good.

So should I now take an anti-KW stance? I was on your side, but I can switch arguments at the drop of a hat.

Collier11

7/16/2010, 08:46 PM

I know you can, its well documented

oudavid1

7/16/2010, 10:21 PM

this got heated

MeMyself&Me

7/16/2010, 10:31 PM

I thought KW was a great OC until BYU. I couldn't believe some of the plays that were called in the first half of that game... I swear he took BYU too lightly. I can count on players doing that from time to time but from a coach, that's inexcusable. The rest of the season had more to do with being hamstrung with injuries though.

That said, KW for now. I don't know that Josh is better and I think the odds of finding a better OC out there as being less than 50/50.

p.s. Most of the big game problems we've had the last few years, coaching wise that is, has been more of the type of things that head coaches have the control of during the game. But I'm not calling for Stoops's head either.

Eielson

7/16/2010, 10:40 PM

Wow Collier, did I strike a nerve? I see that you're ready for an argument, but unfortunately I can't argue with somebody who doesn't even understand that the success of an offense isn't all about the offensive coordinator. This isn't Madden. The players on a team are really important, and in fact, more important than the coaching. Seeing how you used Chuck Long coaching Heisman finalists to support how great you think he was, you apparently think Chuck Long made Adrian Peterson and Jason White great. That's wrong and all I can do is laugh. I can't even bother to argue.

Great job with the stats, though. You just "proved" that Long and KW are better than Leach and Mangino. That just shows you how misleading your stats really are. Just compare how Mangino did at Kansas to what Long did at San Diego State. I would say compare Leach and KW, but as you can see, nobody wants KW.

Let me give you a tip, before you post anymore on this board, especially about sports, try knowing what you are talking about, it will help your cause

This made my day. Have you even played a down of real football? I'd honestly be surprised if you did anything other than play Madden. Anyway, you can go on with your childish insults, but I'd like you to see what others think of you. Take into consideration that this was a real conversation (probably why you weren't in it) where people actually discussed things and didn't just tell the other people how dumb they were for not believing them.

http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142388

All this discussion really needs to be complete is Collier's unimformed opinion based on non-existent research and unreliable hearsay.

Yeah, I went there.

You can go back to playing Madden now.

Leroy Lizard

7/16/2010, 10:51 PM

Wow Collier, did I strike a nerve? I see that you're ready for an argument, but unfortunately I can't argue with somebody who doesn't even understand that the success of an offense isn't all about the offensive coordinator.

It is all about the OC after a loss.

But not after a win.

This is why KW's offense can set an NCAA record for scoring (and scoring is what an OC is all about) but get blamed for the one game in which the offense comes up short. KW is a crappy OC because OU didn't blow out every opponent it faced.

"Yeah, KW is great in gimme games [defined as any game OU wins] but he can't handle adversity [defined as any game OU loses]."

My personal favorite: "Have you noticed that KW's offenses struggle against great teams?"

Like no ****?

gaylordfan1

7/16/2010, 11:46 PM

Assume KW goes the way of Leach, Mangino, and Long at some point in the near term (3 yrs). Who is next in line - Gundy or Josh?

BOOMER

I think Norvell is next in line. Just sayin. I personally hope KW stays put.... Josh has a bright future. He knows it takes time to get into that kind of job. He is great with our QB's. I will let him do his job without throwing this distraction into his ear.

Collier11

7/17/2010, 12:23 AM

Wow Collier, did I strike a nerve?

You didnt strike a nerve, I just typically hold my tongue when it comes to your general stupidity but this time I decided not to, thats all

I see that you're ready for an argument, but unfortunately I can't argue with somebody who doesn't even understand that the success of an offense isn't all about the offensive coordinator. This isn't Madden. The players on a team are really important, and in fact, more important than the coaching. Seeing how you used Chuck Long coaching Heisman finalists to support how great you think he was, you apparently think Chuck Long made Adrian Peterson and Jason White great. That's wrong and all I can do is laugh. I can't even bother to argue.

Great job with the stats, though. You just "proved" that Long and KW are better than Leach and Mangino. That just shows you how misleading your stats really are. Just compare how Mangino did at Kansas to what Long did at San Diego State. I would say compare Leach and KW, but as you can see, nobody wants KW.

Yea, because success as a coordinator has anything to do with success as a head coach :rolleyes:

This made my day. Have you even played a down of real football? I'd honestly be surprised if you did anything other than play Madden. Anyway, you can go on with your childish insults, but I'd like you to see what others think of you.

Everyone that knows me thinks of me in the highest regard, im that kind of person. I also dont go around on message boards insulting people on the most personal levels like you do, but thats cus im a good person. If you are really curious though, I can give you a list of about 15 people on this board and the other who actually KNOW me and can tell ya what kind of person I am, you want the list? And if you would like me to post a link to that little fiasco of yours where you had to make a public apology, id be happy to

Take into consideration that this was a real conversation (probably why you weren't in it) where people actually discussed things and didn't just tell the other people how dumb they were for not believing them.

http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142388

You can go back to playing Madden now.

Ah, the internet tough guy claims, I can say with pretty safe confidence that I am twice the athlete that you ever were and while im not going to sit here on a message board and claim all of my merits, id be happy to show them to you someday. Just let me know

Collier11

7/17/2010, 12:27 AM

Oh, and every conversation that comes up I discuss with both facts and honest opinion, I dont run around like yourself trying to get a rise out of people and acting like im the smartest person in the room. I spent forever debating player vs player in other threads, I felt no need to jump into another one, such as the link that you posted

Hell, I even admit when im wrong which is more than I can ever say for you

Salt City Sooner

7/17/2010, 12:36 AM

It is all about the OC after a loss.

But not after a win.

This is why KW's offense can set an NCAA record for scoring (and scoring is what an OC is all about) but get blamed for the one game in which the offense comes up short. KW is a crappy OC because OU didn't blow out every opponent it faced.

"Yeah, KW is great in gimme games [defined as any game OU wins] but he can't handle adversity [defined as any game OU loses]."

My personal favorite: "Have you noticed that KW's offenses struggle against great teams?"

Like no ****?
Along those lines, there's one universal truth I've learned over my 30+ years of following OU:

The 2 most popular people on the team are A) a struggling starter's backup, & B) a first year offensive coordinator who has any semblance of success.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

Collier11

7/17/2010, 12:39 AM

It is all about the OC after a loss.

But not after a win.

This is why KW's offense can set an NCAA record for scoring (and scoring is what an OC is all about) but get blamed for the one game in which the offense comes up short. KW is a crappy OC because OU didn't blow out every opponent it faced.

"Yeah, KW is great in gimme games [defined as any game OU wins] but he can't handle adversity [defined as any game OU loses]."

My personal favorite: "Have you noticed that KW's offenses struggle against great teams?"

Like no ****?

Why do you make it so easy to disagree with you in every other thread and then you have to go and give me 1 reason every cpl of weeks to be back on your side? :D

Collier11

7/17/2010, 12:41 AM

This thread exemplifies the soonerfans persona that is Eielson...keep throwing sh*t against the wall, hoping something sticks. Instead of rambling on with your less than intelligent opinions, why dont you give us something substantial? If you cant just STFU

Eielson

7/17/2010, 12:54 AM

http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2910522#post2910522

Let's not get this thread off-topic.

Leroy Lizard

7/17/2010, 12:56 AM

Great job with the stats, though. You just "proved" that Long and KW are better than Leach and Mangino. That just shows you how misleading your stats really are. Just compare how Mangino did at Kansas to what Long did at San Diego State. I would say compare Leach and KW, but as you can see, nobody wants KW.

The logic in these statements is just baffling.

The job of the offensive coordinator is to establish an offense that scores. Not win, but score. Not put up more yardage, but score. Not to win as a head coach at some point in the future, but score. Not to call plays that agrees with Eielson, but score.

And OU scored under KW more than any team in NCAA history.

Yes, it was a talented team. But it was not the most talented team in NCAA history. Not by a long shot. But it scored more than any team in NCAA history.

If that doesn't prove his worth, nothing will. What more can one do?

Collier11

7/17/2010, 01:03 AM

Cmon now Leroy, that isnt fair, Eielson did medal in a middle school track meet, this guy knows his sports

Eielson

7/17/2010, 01:10 AM

The logic in these statements is just baffling.

The job of the offensive coordinator is to establish an offense that scores. Not win, but score. Not put up more yardage, but score. Not to win as a head coach at some point in the future, but score. Not to call plays that agrees with Eielson, but score.

And OU scored under KW more than any team in NCAA history.

Yes, it was a talented team. But it was not the most talented team in NCAA history. Not by a long shot. But it scored more than any team in NCAA history.

If that doesn't prove his worth, nothing will. What more can one do?

So what you're trying to say is that despite the offensive knowledge required to be a good OC, once he becomes a HC, none of that matters? I don't even care about winning. I guarantee you that Leach's teams scored more points than Long's, and I don't even feel the need to look that up.

As for that offense not being the most talented offense in NCAA history by a long shot...who are these offenses that are way better? Sam's about to have the richest contract in the NFL history before he even steps foot on an NFL practice field. Trent Williams was a top 5 pick. Loadholt started for the Vikings as a rookie. Gresham was the best TE in the country. Iggy and Johnson were two of the best receivers in the conference, and a young, talented Broyles would eventually become one of the best WR's in the country. Brown and Murray both rushed for over a thousand yards. What else could an OC want?

Leroy Lizard

7/17/2010, 01:11 AM

Cmon now Leroy, that isnt fair, Eielson did medal in a middle school track meet, this guy knows his sports

But he did stay at the Holiday Inn.

Eielson

7/17/2010, 01:12 AM

Cmon now Leroy, that isnt fair, Eielson did medal in a middle school track meet, this guy knows his sports

It's more than you can say.

Collier11

7/17/2010, 01:13 AM

probably cleans the bathrooms at one

Collier11

7/17/2010, 01:14 AM

It's more than you can say.

Do you really want to go there because we can if you like

Eielson

7/17/2010, 01:14 AM

Do you really want to go there because we can if you like

Do it.

Collier11

7/17/2010, 01:20 AM

LOL, I see you started replying and then logged off, im sorry if I embarrassed you. Ill take it all down.

Collier11

7/17/2010, 01:22 AM

The great thing is, even with all of that I know that there are several better athletes on this board than myself, just not you

Collier11

7/17/2010, 01:34 AM

OH yea, im a professional cat wrangler as well

Eielson

7/17/2010, 01:52 AM

Lets see...

Played on a baseball team thru 8th grade that lost 5 games in 6 years, lost to a final 8 national team 1-0 in a qualifying tournament

Started 3 diff sports in HS, 1 for 4 years, the other two for 2 years

3 time all conf in two diff sports

All State honorable mention in 1 sport

Batted 450. my junior year in baseball

Hit 7 3's in one game

Scored 32 once, 31 once, 27 once

struck out 16 in one game in baseball, also threw a no hitter. Both my senior year

Got an oppurtunity to play college baseball at UCO, eventually got cut. I was never going pro but I was good enough to play college ball if I had gone to a smaller school

29 years old now, not gonna brag about stats unless STEP Is around :D but I still play two different sports 3 times a week and play them pretty damn well still

In fact, ive got a basketball game this coming Tuesday and Thur if you wanna come watch, just let me know, ill buy you some popcorn

Now, lets hear yours...im sure it is impressive, LOL

Like I said, I started in baseball, basketball, and football while in high school. I medaled in the shot put and finished 4th in the discus while in middle school, but couldn't do track and baseball at the same time in high school. I even played soccer until third grade and was good at it, but my parents told me I couldn't play 4 sports at one time. I'm not going to go deep into detail about how great I think I am for more than one reason. One of course being that this it the internet, and if you or I wanted to, we could just make everything up, so it really wouldn't mean anything. The second, and more important, reason is that there are coaches at three of the best high school sports programs in Oklahoma who believe I'm a good athlete. If they believe it, I honestly don't care what you think. I doubt you played high school ball at 6A either. Am I wrong?

Curly Bill

7/17/2010, 04:25 AM

I'm not gonna read this entire thread, but I'll answer: I'd much prefer to keep Josh. Of course some of you might be aware I'm not much of a KW fan to start with.

Curly Bill

7/17/2010, 04:36 AM

Ok, I did read the entire thread...

...and you're all a bunch of dumases. :D

....well, except for that one guy I gave SPEK to -- Sooner-N-KS I think it was. He pretty much agrees with me so that means he's smart. ;)

AlbqSooner

7/17/2010, 06:24 AM

Like I said, I started in baseball, basketball, and football while in high school. I medaled in the shot put and finished 4th in the discus while in middle school, but couldn't do track and baseball at the same time in high school. I even played soccer until third grade and was good at it, but my parents told me I couldn't play 4 sports at one time. I'm not going to go deep into detail about how great I think I am for more than one reason. One of course being that this it the internet, and if you or I wanted to, we could just make everything up, so it really wouldn't mean anything. The second, and more important, reason is that there are coaches at three of the best high school sports programs in Oklahoma who believe I'm a good athlete. If they believe it, I honestly don't care what you think. I doubt you played high school ball at 6A either. Am I wrong?

The older I get, the better I was.:D

IronHorseSooner

7/17/2010, 08:44 AM

But it was not the most talented team in NCAA history.

Eielson started to expound on this:

Sam: Rams
Gresh: Bengals
Iggy: Bears
Manny: Cowboys
Brody: Colts
Big Phil: Vikings
Duke: Panthers
Coop: Vikings
T-Will: Redskins

As well, DM and Broyles are likely shoo-ins for the NFL. That would be three receivers, two TEs, four OL, QB, and one RB. Heck, Brandon Walker was in the Texans' camp before he did some stupid stuff. I can't name many other teams out there that had that much talent on one offense at any time.

On that note, BV had about the same level of talent on D:

GK: Bucs
Clayton: Eagles
Dom: Falcons
Holmes: Redskins
Harris: Bills

As well, Beal, T. Lewis, Taylor (if he can stay healthy), Alexander, and QC are excellent candidates for the NFL. That would be 6 out of his front seven, as well as 4 DBs.

There was a conversation down here on one of the local sports stations as to the talent level in that MNC game with FLA, and how it might have been the best. Almost that entire FLA defense is in the NFL, or soon will be.

Spray

7/17/2010, 09:12 AM

Miami, 2001

Sooner-N-KS

7/17/2010, 09:15 AM

WVU was a defensive collapse. There wasn't much wrong with KW's game calling against BSU. I thought his gamecalling was fine against Florida; he can't be blamed for dropped passes.

As for the other games, you can't win them all.

BTW, the "he can't adjust" is levied against every OC in football after a loss. Somehow, the OC is supposed to do something magical at halftime.

Can you name one game where KW made adjustments during the game and came from behind to win against a tough team?

Didn't think so.

bonkuba

7/17/2010, 09:19 AM

I really don't want to lose Josh......but the experience is needed.

I read some of this thread and thought I was in high school. I would just say stop talking about how tough you are and just meet, fight....and stfu. :D

Leroy Lizard

7/17/2010, 11:36 AM

Can you name one game where KW made adjustments during the game and came from behind to win against a tough team?

Didn't think so.

There haven't been that many opportunities. OU doesn't lose that many games, and there have been fewer games in which it was behind at halftime. And you have to consider defense as well -- KW only coaches a third of the team.

We got way behind at Boise St. and came back to tie it. The fact that we lost was due to a lot of things, and I don't KW was one of them.

I think the effectiveness of in-game adjustments are vastly overrated by fans. Sure, you can make some minor changes, but the defense is perfectly free to adjust in kind. And a good D can dial in on anything you are trying to do.

Sooner-N-KS

7/17/2010, 11:54 AM

There haven't been that many opportunities. OU doesn't lose that many games, and there have been fewer games in which it was behind at halftime. And you have to consider defense as well -- KW only coaches a third of the team.

We got way behind at Boise St. and came back to tie it. The fact that we lost was due to a lot of things, and I don't KW was one of them.

I think the effectiveness of in-game adjustments are vastly overrated by fans. Sure, you can make some minor changes, but the defense is perfectly free to adjust in kind. And a good D can dial in on anything you are trying to do.

That really goes to prove my point. KW is great when he has great players playing against a less talented defense.

He's been the OC for 4 seasons now. He has had several opportunities against tough opponents, but he has only won once against Texas in 2007 I believe.

How many chances do you want to give him to win a big game before you can see that he stinks when he faces adversity?

I do give him credit with how he finished the season last year, but my opinion of him is heavily tainted by how he started last year and his big game performances. It will take more than 2 great games against the aggies and Stanford to impress me.

MR2-Sooner86

7/17/2010, 12:09 PM

He's been the OC for 4 seasons now.

2009 - Injuries, injuries, injuries

2008 - In the NC game, yes, I thought he called some bad ones. However, 35 points was more than enough to beat Texas. That one was on the defense.

2007 - How close were we to beating Tech with a backup QB? The whole team was off for Colorado and when we played WV I remember many players already had bolted to the NFL.

2006 - Oregon we all know. Texas? Yeah I remember they still had much of their championship defense. Boise? Was it the offense or defense that allowed Boise to come back after we took the lead? Hmmmm...

TahoeSOONER

7/17/2010, 12:20 PM

I still don't know why a QB sneak wasn't called when you have two downs from the one in a NC game.

Salt City Sooner

7/17/2010, 02:47 PM

So what you're trying to say is that despite the offensive knowledge required to be a good OC, once he becomes a HC, none of that matters? I don't even care about winning. I guarantee you that Leach's teams scored more points than Long's, and I don't even feel the need to look that up.

As for that offense not being the most talented offense in NCAA history by a long shot...who are these offenses that are way better? Sam's about to have the richest contract in the NFL history before he even steps foot on an NFL practice field. Trent Williams was a top 5 pick. Loadholt started for the Vikings as a rookie. Gresham was the best TE in the country. Iggy and Johnson were two of the best receivers in the conference, and a young, talented Broyles would eventually become one of the best WR's in the country. Brown and Murray both rushed for over a thousand yards. What else could an OC want?

Allow me to welcome you aboard the

http://feilz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/epic-failboat.jpg

Long was the OC from 2002 through 2005. The massive rebuilding job endured by OU in '05 was the ONLY year that Tech outscored OU in that time.

OU 2002- 541 points
OU 2003- 601 points
OU 2004- 452 points
OU 2005- 323 points

TTU 2002- 537 poiints
TTU 2003- 552 points
TTU 2004- 434 points
TTU- 2005- 473 points

Leroy Lizard

7/17/2010, 02:59 PM

That really goes to prove my point. KW is great when he has great players playing against a less talented defense.

He's been the OC for 4 seasons now. He has had several opportunities against tough opponents, but he has only won once against Texas in 2007 I believe.

How many chances do you want to give him to win a big game before you can see that he stinks when he faces adversity?

This is pointless, because if the team plays great then it didn't face adversity.

We absolutely annihilated Missouri in the Big XII Championship Game. But because the offense played so well, then the game doesn't count as an example of adversity so he gets no credit. Rather, if we had stunk up the joint on offense and had to eek out a victory, it would have looked better in many OU fans' eyes. Which is ludicrous.

It's circular reasoning. To prove his mettle to the fans, OU has to win close ones, which means it needs to struggle enough on offense to allow the other team to stay close. But is that an example of good offensive coaching?

Frankly, I would rather have an OC that puts together an offense that avoids adversity by wiping out the other team from the get-go. And KW has managed to do that more than just about any other OC in the country. It hasn't always worked out that way, but I'll take it.

I think the KW detractors simply haven't understood the concept "you win some; you lose some." You're not going to win every game. You will struggle from time to time and you will lose a few. It happens.

I do give him credit with how he finished the season last year, but my opinion of him is heavily tainted by how he started last year and his big game performances. It will take more than 2 great games against the aggies and Stanford to impress me.

So you don't give him credit. It means nothing to say "I give him credit" if in the end you discount it. It's just a bunch of words we say to make us sound reasonable, but they mean nothing.

Eielson

7/17/2010, 03:19 PM

Allow me to welcome you aboard the

http://feilz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/epic-failboat.jpg

Long was the OC from 2002 through 2005. The massive rebuilding job endured by OU in '05 was the ONLY year that Tech outscored OU in that time.

OU 2002- 541 points
OU 2003- 601 points
OU 2004- 452 points
OU 2005- 323 points

TTU 2002- 537 poiints
TTU 2003- 552 points
TTU 2004- 434 points
TTU- 2005- 473 points

Apparently you've mistaken Oklahoma for San Diego State, so I'll help you out.

SDSU 2006 - 270 points scored
SDSU 2007 - 301 points scored
SDSU 2008 - 231 points scored

Just so you know, the year before Long got to SDSU, they scored more points than they ever did in a Long coached season (323) and had more wins (5). I can't believe that somebody would actually say Chuck Long is a better offensive coach than Mike Leach.

Leroy Lizard

7/17/2010, 03:26 PM

I still don't know why a QB sneak wasn't called when you have two downs from the one in a NC game.

"Guys, I have a new nickname for KW. Let's call him QS, or Quarterback Sneak. What a dumbass!"

"Yeah, he calls a play right into the TOTD. The TOTD!! Everyone knew what was coming."

"My kid, who has Down's Syndrome and recently suffered brain damage in a car wreck... well, he doesn't know anything about football. He doesn't even know what a football is. Well, we're watching the game and KC (that's his name) comes up and says, 'I bet he calls a QB sneak.' Now, if my brain-damaged, Down's Syndrome kid can call the play before it happens, I'm sure the Gators can predict it."

"Even my wife predicted it!"

"Hey everyone, it's 4th and 12. Bet KW calls a QB sneak."

"LOL!!"

"Gee fellas, I didn't think it was such a bad call..."

"Did it work? Yes or no?"

"Well, no... but"

"Then STFU."

"Agreed. Everyone knows you give the ball to your best RB in that situation. That's why he's a RB. Bradford can't run. He's a passer. Typical KW... not calling plays to his player's strengths."

Salt City Sooner

7/17/2010, 03:49 PM

Apparently you've mistaken Oklahoma for San Diego State, so I'll help you out.

SDSU 2006 - 270 points scored
SDSU 2007 - 301 points scored
SDSU 2008 - 231 points scored

Just so you know, the year before Long got to SDSU, they scored more points than they ever did in a Long coached season (323) and had more wins (5). I can't believe that somebody would actually say Chuck Long is a better offensive coach than Mike Leach.
Did I say he was better? No. I pointed out that they produced as much during the years that they had common competition, & speaking of "I can't believes", I can't believe that anybody would even semi-attempt to compare the situation @ TTU with what Long inherited at SDSU. Spike Dykes may not have been Vince Lombardi, but he was a solid coach for the Red Raiders who left Leach a good foundation to build on, while just last year, Brady Hoke went from 12-1 at Ball State to 4-8 @ SDSU. There's a reason that they haven't had a winning season since '98, & this article I saved (I have it saved as a Word document, no link) gives some pretty good insight to it. To say that Long took over a trainwreck would be in the running for understatement of the year. Nobody held a gun to his head that I'm aware of when he took the job so that's all well & good, but the shape that that particular job was in at the time he took it was adverse on the best of days.

Vanishing recruits
Touted players fall from SDSU football roster at high rate
By Brent Schrotenboer
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
February 6, 2007
* Aztecs see blue-chip local prospects lean toward other schools
* SDSU's hits and misses
From December 2001 through February 2004, San Diego State signed so many top football recruits that several national recruiting experts gushed with praise.
So did coach Tom Craft, who took over in December 2001.
“If we can continue to do this – have strong classes year after year – now you're looking at a different type of football program,” Craft said in 2004.

JIM BAIRD / Union-Tribune
Former Aztecs football coach Tom Craft had some heralded recruiting classes, but they produced few front-line players.
It didn't turn out that way, though. Among Craft's first three recruiting classes, there were just as many players who tragically bottomed out after leaving SDSU prematurely (one suicide, one charged with murder) as there have been first-team all-conference selections (two).
Thirty of those 79 recruits didn't qualify for admission, were kicked off the team or prematurely dropped off the roster for academic or personal reasons. That's a loss of more than one full recruiting class out of three – an alarming rate of attrition that continues to contribute to the challenges facing a team without a bowl berth since 1998.
Current coach Chuck Long, fresh off a 3-9 rookie season, will introduce his second recruiting class tomorrow. While declining to lay blame for the complex problem, he said the toll of that attrition lingers and that his staff was aware of it when taking over after Craft was fired in December 2005.
“It's going to take time to get those numbers back to where we need them,” Long said. “It affects your depth.”
When scholarship players leave the program prematurely, coaches often are forced to replace them with lesser-talented nonscholarship players.
The average attrition rate in Division I-A is roughly 7 percent, not including recruits who fail to qualify academically and never make the team roster. This rate is based on annual surveys made by the American Football Coaches Association over the past several years. With rosters limited to 85 scholarship players, teams usually are five or six under that at any one time, said AFCA Executive Director Grant Teaff.
“That's the natural attrition rate, people that drop off the roster,” he said.
SDSU's attrition rate is almost four times that average rate for those three recruiting classes, not counting eight who failed to academically qualify for the roster during those three years.
The attrition has been particularly acute on the offensive line, where seven recruits left the team prematurely for personal or health reasons from those three classes. Long called it a “critical need” for him now as a result.
“We've gone two years now trying to recruit those big guys in our program,” he said.
Craft didn't return phone messages seeking comment.
Craft's first three recruiting classes can be divided into three parts: 30 who fell off the map, 30 who started at least five games and 20 who started fewer than five games or none at all (one player started five games and left before the next season).
Fifteen of the 30 players who have started at least five games came from SDSU's 2003 class, a group that was heralded as easily the best recruiting class in the Mountain West Conference by recruiting experts in February 2003.
That group included the only first-team all-MWC players from those three classes: running back Lynell Hamilton and defensive end Antwan Applewhite.
The benchmark for a successful recruiting class is about 12 players who turn out to be regular starters.
“If you can get 15 to 20 starters out of a class, you've done an amazing job,” said Jeremy Crabtree, recruiting analyst for Rivals.com.
SDSU's 2003 class hit that threshold, although a big reason it did was necessity. The Aztecs had several holes to fill with so many players dropping off the roster, opening up plenty of opportunities for young recruits.
For the 2002 class, 13 of the 27 recruits left the program early, including La Quinta running back Frederick Collins, who was ranked by Rivals.com as the nation's 15th-best running back recruit. He rushed for 333 yards in 2002 before his father's death and academic problems led to his departure from the team by January 2004.
That class also included 11 junior college recruits – an area of recruiting emphasis that backfired on SDSU. In those first three classes, 21 of the 79 recruits were junior college recruits – but only six started at least five games.
When recruiting junior college players, the idea is to get players who can play right away because they have only two years of eligibility when they sign with Division I-A teams.
But of those 21 junior college recruits, five were two-year reserves, four failed to qualify and four others were dismissed or quit prematurely, including two troubled youths who soon encountered tragedy. Scottsdale (Ariz.) Community College defensive tackle Curtis Robinson, part of Craft's first class, committed suicide after leaving SDSU. Moorpark College defensive end Martin Miller left SDSU after 2004 and now is facing charges of murder and attempted murder in Tulare County in the San Joaquin Valley, stemming from an incident in November 2005. His trial is set for March.
“San Diego State has had a huge hole to dig themselves out of,” Crabtree, the analyst, said.
Crabtree blamed several factors for the attrition: poor decisions, poor evaluations on players and not recruiting enough high school kids.
Other reasons go beyond the head coach and his staff. Academic support for at-risk athletes was determined to be “limited” by SDSU officials, leading to a beefing up of academic support for them in the past two years. SDSU recently added a new position for director of student-athlete academic support services and this year budgeted $450,000 for summer athletic scholarships, up from $350,000 last year.
SDSU hopes the changes foster better retention rates for athletes, especially after new NCAA academic reforms have compounded the attrition issue for the Aztecs. If academically ineligible players leave school, their team suffers a loss of points in its Academic Progress Rate (APR). Ultimately, a poor APR leads to scholarship reduction penalties. Last year, the NCAA hit SDSU with a four-scholarship penalty in football.
The year before, SDSU's APR was third-worst among 117 Division I-A teams, behind only Middle Tennessee State and San Jose State.
“I haven't seen that kind of attrition other places I've been,” Long said. “But the academic plan now is to keep them on track and in school. We have great support now in academics. It's probably the most key in our program.”

Eielson

7/17/2010, 04:11 PM

Did I say he was better? No.

In that case, I don't know what you're trying to say. Do you have a point, or are you just trying to be disagreeable?

Leroy Lizard

7/17/2010, 04:23 PM

In that case, I don't know what you're trying to say. Do you have a point, or are you just trying to be disagreeable?

Ahem. "I pointed out that they produced as much during the years that they had common competition"

TahoeSOONER

7/17/2010, 04:31 PM

"Guys, I have a new nickname for KW. Let's call him QS, or Quarterback Sneak. What a dumbass!"

"Yeah, he calls a play right into the TOTD. The TOTD!! Everyone knew what was coming."

"My kid, who has Down's Syndrome and recently suffered brain damage in a car wreck... well, he doesn't know anything about football. He doesn't even know what a football is. Well, we're watching the game and KC (that's his name) comes up and says, 'I bet he calls a QB sneak.' Now, if my brain-damaged, Down's Syndrome kid can call the play before it happens, I'm sure the Gators can predict it."

"Even my wife predicted it!"

"Hey everyone, it's 4th and 12. Bet KW calls a QB sneak."

"LOL!!"

"Gee fellas, I didn't think it was such a bad call..."

"Did it work? Yes or no?"

"Well, no... but"

"Then STFU."

"Agreed. Everyone knows you give the ball to your best RB in that situation. That's why he's a RB. Bradford can't run. He's a passer. Typical KW... not calling plays to his player's strengths."

I think KW is money and I understand why you give it to your horse and not risk some dirty $h*t happening to your QB on a sneak. I just think it's an automatic sneak that close to the GL with two downs. Credit the gaytors for stepping up on D.

KW>Me at play calling obviously

Leroy Lizard

7/17/2010, 04:35 PM

I think KW is money and I understand why you give it to your horse and not risk some dirty $h*t happening to your QB on a sneak. I just think it's an automatic sneak that close to the GL with two downs. Credit the gaytors for stepping up on D.

KW>Me at play calling obviously

The play that wasn't called is always automatic.

gaylordfan1

7/17/2010, 05:16 PM

I have a question... Are we talking about the goal line stand against Florida in the NC game? On one of the running plays to C. Brown didn't Simmons (I think thats who it was) TOTALLY miss his blocking assignment and the defender ran clean and stopped us at the one yard line? So, if I remember correctly one of those plays would have worked if that linemen in question would have at least touched the defenders shoulder pad or gotten in his way just a little bit. Let me know if any of this rings a bell.

Leroy Lizard

7/17/2010, 05:39 PM

I have a question... Are we talking about the goal line stand against Florida in the NC game? On one of the running plays to C. Brown didn't Simmons (I think thats who it was) TOTALLY miss his blocking assignment...

Let me stop you right there.

The play that was called did not score. Why it didn't work has no business in a discussion on whether the OC called the right play.

Sooner-N-KS

7/17/2010, 06:29 PM

This is pointless, because if the team plays great then it didn't face adversity.

We absolutely annihilated Missouri in the Big XII Championship Game. But because the offense played so well, then the game doesn't count as an example of adversity so he gets no credit. Rather, if we had stunk up the joint on offense and had to eek out a victory, it would have looked better in many OU fans' eyes. Which is ludicrous.

It's circular reasoning. To prove his mettle to the fans, OU has to win close ones, which means it needs to struggle enough on offense to allow the other team to stay close. But is that an example of good offensive coaching?

Frankly, I would rather have an OC that puts together an offense that avoids adversity by wiping out the other team from the get-go. And KW has managed to do that more than just about any other OC in the country. It hasn't always worked out that way, but I'll take it.

I think the KW detractors simply haven't understood the concept "you win some; you lose some." You're not going to win every game. You will struggle from time to time and you will lose a few. It happens.

So you don't give him credit. It means nothing to say "I give him credit" if in the end you discount it. It's just a bunch of words we say to make us sound reasonable, but they mean nothing.

It's not necessarily that he needs to win the close one. He needs to win the big one against a team that is OU's equal. He hasn't done it. Don't give me Missouri. They were a farce. He has had opportunities in close ones, but he couldn't pull it out.

You are giving him credit for wiping out lesser opponents because he usually has FAR superior players. I want an OC that gets more out of his players than they think they are able. Boise St. is a great example. OU had far superior players, but Boise had coaches that put the players in position to beat Goliath. I'm not impressed with the bunches of times Goliath stomps on David. I would just like to see Goliath beat up another giant every now and then.

I do give him credit for coaching 2 strong games with injured personnel against teams that don't have the normal talent OU has. I just want to see him beat Texas and a legit top 5 team in a BCS game.

Leroy Lizard

7/17/2010, 06:40 PM

It's not necessarily that he needs to win the close one. He needs to win the big one against a team that is OU's equal. He hasn't done it. Don't give me Missouri. They were a farce.

Because we blew them out.

What was Tech rated when we beat them in 2008? #2? Didn't they beat Texas that year? Weren't they undefeated?

But we blew them out. So they weren't any good. So KW doesn't get any credit.

What was Missouri ranked when we beat them that year in the regular season?

The better we play, the worse we make the opponent look and the less credit KW receives.

Eielson

7/17/2010, 06:55 PM

Because we blew them out.

What was Tech rated when we beat them in 2008? #2? Didn't they beat Texas that year? Weren't they undefeated?

But we blew them out. So they weren't any good. So KW doesn't get any credit.

What was Missouri ranked when we beat them that year in the regular season?

The better we play, the worse we make the opponent look and the less credit KW receives.

Torching Texas Tech's defense isn't something to brag about, and especially not with perhaps the most talented offense in college football history. Sure, they were a good team, but it was all about their offense.

Collier11

7/17/2010, 07:15 PM

I see eielson is still embarrassing himself, have fun, im goin out for the night

JLEW1818

7/17/2010, 07:16 PM

LOL

Leroy Lizard

7/17/2010, 08:32 PM

Torching Texas Tech's defense isn't something to brag about, and especially not with perhaps the most talented offense in college football history. Sure, they were a good team, but it was all about their offense.

There's always a ****ing excuse.

Tech held UT to 33 points, half of what OU put up on them.

But, there will always be an excuse.

oudavid1

7/17/2010, 08:55 PM

LOL

RedstickSooner

7/17/2010, 09:01 PM

IronHorseSooner

7/17/2010, 09:37 PM

I will be man enough to admit that I was tough on KW last year, but looking back, what could he do? His OL were like Spinal Tap drummers, always getting bumped off. He has won some big games, like Tech and Mizzou. Tech had just beaten the #1 team in the country, who scored 33 on Tech. We doubled that, and had 42 in one half. Mizzou was the hottest team going, and had just beaten the #2 team in the country to get to that game. We monkey-slapped them. Those were big games. I can't blame the * loss in 2008 on him. That was on the D, and that was because we had a guy playing MLB who is now a FB. When you score 35 points on any opponent, with OUr talent, you should win. Any coach would tell you that. Against FLA, that was on the OL missing assignments. We were blasting it up the middle FLA to get down into the red zone. It is also well-known that the best way to beat an SEC defense is to run at them, not around them, which is what we were doing. My only complaint there is that we could have done a play-action to Gresh and got an easy six out of it, but you can't complain with the success we had with going up the middle.

RedstickSooner

7/17/2010, 11:00 PM

Curly Bill

7/17/2010, 11:19 PM

There's always a ****ing excuse.

Tech held UT to 33 points, half of what OU put up on them.

But, there will always be an excuse.

"Held UT to 33 points"

Why does that make me laugh? :rolleyes: :D

Leroy Lizard

7/17/2010, 11:23 PM

"Held UT to 33 points"

Why does that make me laugh? :rolleyes: :D

In comparison to 65 points? Yeah, that's holding them.

Curly Bill

7/17/2010, 11:23 PM

In comparison to 65 points? Yeah, that's holding them.

If you say so. :rolleyes:

Leroy Lizard

7/17/2010, 11:23 PM

"Held UT to 33 points"

Why does that make me laugh? :rolleyes: :D

We scored 35 on them. So if you think 33 is a lot, you proved my point.

Curly Bill

7/17/2010, 11:26 PM

We scored 35 on them. So if you think 33 is a lot, you proved my point.

If you say so. :rolleyes:

Leroy Lizard

7/17/2010, 11:30 PM

Well, is 33 points a lot? Yes or no?

Curly Bill

7/17/2010, 11:32 PM

Well, is 33 points a lot? Yes or no?

Depends on lots of factors. It's not just a cut and dried issue like I know you suppose you're going to make it here.

Leroy Lizard

7/17/2010, 11:46 PM

Depends on lots of factors. It's not just a cut and dried issue like I know you suppose you're going to make it here.

But you wrote:

"Held UT to 33 points"

Why does that make me laugh?

I don't see any concern for all these factors in your mocking rebuttal.

So on one hand, you claim that whether or not 33 points is a lot comes down to a lot of factors. On the other hand, you mocked my statement that holding a team to 33 points was pretty good.

gaylordfan1

7/18/2010, 12:45 AM

Let me stop you right there.

The play that was called did not score. Why it didn't work has no business in a discussion on whether the OC called the right play.

So i guess you got my point that the OC called the right play.... a play that would have put points on the board if the players would have carried out their assignments? I can see you arguing a 20 something yard pass that would have scored if the DB didn't knock it down. But to have a play on the one yard line with a totally blown blocking assignment is another thing. I was just proving the fact that it isn't always what the coach calls.... how your players execute that play is just as important. Your a smart man Leroy, so I will just take for granted that you already knew what I was getting at. ;)

Eielson

7/18/2010, 12:52 AM

There's always a ****ing excuse.

Tech held UT to 33 points, half of what OU put up on them.

But, there will always be an excuse.

Explain why OU had one of it's ugliest offensive performances ever this year against Nebraska. Oh, and don't give any reasoning for it or I'll call it a "****ing excuse." :rolleyes:

Collier11

7/18/2010, 02:15 AM

If you dont know the answer to that without asking Leroy then you are more clueless than previously thought

Leroy Lizard

7/18/2010, 02:18 AM

So i guess you got my point that the OC called the right play.... a play that would have put points on the board if the players would have carried out their assignments? I can see you arguing a 20 something yard pass that would have scored if the DB didn't knock it down. But to have a play on the one yard line with a totally blown blocking assignment is another thing. I was just proving the fact that it isn't always what the coach calls.... how your players execute that play is just as important. Your a smart man Leroy, so I will just take for granted that you already knew what I was getting at. ;)

Yes, I was being sarcastic.

And yes, I'm smart.

Leroy Lizard

7/18/2010, 02:23 AM

Explain why OU had one of it's ugliest offensive performances ever this year against Nebraska. Oh, and don't give any reasoning for it or I'll call it a "****ing excuse." :rolleyes:

My argument all along has been that no team can be expected to blow out every opponent. So the Nebraska game does not contradict anything I have stated. I find it ludicrous, in fact, to point to individual games as proof of anything. Yet, that is what the KW detractors do.

It's worse than that: They point to individual PLAYS. WTF?

gaylordfan1

7/18/2010, 05:31 AM

Leroy=smart! Its that simple. ;)

Sooner-N-KS

7/18/2010, 07:24 AM

Because we blew them out.

What was Tech rated when we beat them in 2008? #2? Didn't they beat Texas that year? Weren't they undefeated?

But we blew them out. So they weren't any good. So KW doesn't get any credit.

What was Missouri ranked when we beat them that year in the regular season?

The better we play, the worse we make the opponent look and the less credit KW receives.

We're not talking about games as a whole here. We're talking about their defenses. Tech and Mizzou didn't have great defenses like Florida and Texas. So KW does get credit for once again beating up on lesser talented defenses with his superior talent on offense.

When do we see him coaching his guys to play above their own abilities? That's what good coaches do.............like Josh did with Paul Thompson.

Sooner-N-KS

7/18/2010, 07:28 AM

2009 has to be one of the most frustrating seasons ever. While I'm glad a lot of folks are cool with Wilson now, I think we should all get a pass for anyone we dogged on during the previous year. When so much goes so wrong, I think you're entitled to spreading around some blame.

There's only so many times you can blame it on that gypsy Stoops ran over last July. Pretty sure her curse should've run out once Gresham and Sam went down.

I don't dog KW for anything related to injuries other than him failing to make blocking scheme adjustments and getting Sam hurt. His actions in the BYU game had nothing to do with injuries.

Sooner-N-KS

7/18/2010, 07:29 AM

For everyone defending play calling, does anyone think it was smart to call a running play on 3rd & 6 to Matt Clapp in a very close game?

IronHorseSooner

7/18/2010, 09:12 AM

He does need to get rid of the smoke draw into the guards' hind quarters.

Leroy Lizard

7/18/2010, 10:59 AM

For everyone defending play calling, does anyone think it was smart to call a running play on 3rd & 6 to Matt Clapp in a very close game?

Crap, you just got done telling us we weren't talking about individual games, but we're going to isolate individual plays?

Can we offer plays that did work in rebuttal? Or is this only one way?

When do we see him coaching his guys to play above their own abilities? That's what good coaches do.............like Josh did with Paul Thompson.

What's the point? If we offer an example, you will just credit the position coach.

Want proof? Paul Thompson. He did a great job. So... you credit Josh, not KW.

Sooner-N-KS

7/18/2010, 12:35 PM

Where did I say we weren't talking about individual games? I did say we weren't talking about games as a whole.......as in OU's defense vs. opponents offense. That has nothing to do with KW. We're talking about KW facing up against big time defenses. You claimed that 35 should have been enough to beat Texas. Yup, Venables blew that one by not having a MLB replacement ready. But KW couldn't get the offense to do anything in the 4th quarter when it counted.

Well, maybe you can enlighten us on what KW did as a coach to get Thompson to play the way he did. I would love to hear from anyone that would want to take credit away from Josh and give it to KW.

Eielson

7/18/2010, 03:43 PM

My argument all along has been that no team can be expected to blow out every opponent. So the Nebraska game does not contradict anything I have stated. I find it ludicrous, in fact, to point to individual games as proof of anything. Yet, that is what the KW detractors do.

It's worse than that: They point to individual PLAYS. WTF?

Wait a minute. Weren't you just using the Texas Tech game to show how good of a coach Wilson was? I can't counter your single games with another single game? Is this like how I can't give reasoning for why you're wrong otherwise you'll start screaming that it's an excuse? I should've ended this conversation when you were using a performance against Tech's defense to show how great an offensive coordinator was. That's as close to conceding as it gets. Now that it's clear I don't have the same rights as you in this argument, I'll end it now. No matter how annoying your arguing tactics were, I thank you for at least staying on topic, and staying away from personal attacks (not naming names...).

Collier11

7/18/2010, 03:44 PM

You messed up your entire argument when you tried to compare head coaching success to off coord success.

And that last little line you threw in there, hoping for even more attention, get over it. Dont act like a mega doosh and we wont consider you a mega doosh, simple

Also, can you post a pic of your middle school track medals? That would make my day :D

CrimsonJim

7/18/2010, 03:45 PM

You guys need to go get a room...

Collier11

7/18/2010, 03:48 PM

I do think they love each other

CrimsonJim

7/18/2010, 03:51 PM

I would certainly appear so.

JRAM

7/18/2010, 04:32 PM

KEVIN WILSON. Hueple needs a number of years of maturation before he will be ready for a coordinator job. He is a good kid, but that is it, he is a kid.

Curly Bill

7/18/2010, 05:15 PM

Curly Bill

7/18/2010, 05:16 PM

He does need to get rid of the smoke draw into the guards' hind quarters.

....but dude, that's bread and butter Big-10 football. ;)

Collier11

7/18/2010, 05:21 PM

beat a team with similiar talent? Yeah, not so much.

See, the problem with you saying this is that I can show you a ton of instances where you are wrong. Id be happy to if ya want me to buddy :D

Curly Bill

7/18/2010, 05:24 PM

See, the problem with you saying this is that I can show you a ton of instances where you are wrong. Id be happy to if ya want me to buddy :D

If you do show me that, and I don't think you can, then you're admitting our talent is not above most other peeps. So, what do you want: support KW as some allsome OC, or show that our players are just about like everyone elses?

Support our players, or support the OC - you pick one and go for it. ;)

Eielson

7/18/2010, 05:46 PM

http://www.sambradford.org/images/sam-bradford-pictures%20(4).jpg

http://www.soonerguys.com/photos/mccoy.jpg

http://nflfaninengland.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/trent1.jpg

I just felt like reviewing 3 of the top 4 picks of this year's draft in case somebody brought up talent.

Leroy Lizard

7/18/2010, 05:55 PM

I point to a conglomeration of his games.

No, you filter out any games for which he was successful and focus on the other few. This conglomeration of games of which you speak is conveniently chosen. The others are rationalized away. ("Well, that games doesn't count because...")

For example, 2008. Guess which games in 2008 go into your analysis file, and which ones are conveniently ignored?

And you still haven't explained your way out of the "35 points, is that a lot?" hole.

Leroy Lizard

7/18/2010, 06:02 PM

Wait a minute. Weren't you just using the Texas Tech game to show how good of a coach Wilson was?

I was using the same logic as a KW detractor to demonstrate the absurdity of the logic. Under no circumstances do I think that the worth of a coach depends on a few isolated games (or even worse, plays).

He has had tremendous success. His offense set the NCAA record for scoring. He was voted Assistant Coach of the Year by his fellow assistant coaches. And we're going to throw all that out because he didn't call the plays YOU thought he should have, or his teams struggled in a few games.

Who knows more about what it takes to be a top offensive coordinator than fellow offensive coordinators? No one.

Fans of other teams must think we're psycho for even questioning KW's abilities.

Curly Bill

7/18/2010, 06:06 PM

No, you filter out any games for which he was successful and focus on the other few. This conglomeration of games of which you speak is conveniently chosen. The others are rationalized away. ("Well, that games doesn't count because...")

For example, 2008. Guess which games in 2008 go into your analysis file, and which ones are conveniently ignored?

And you still haven't explained your way out of the "35 points, is that a lot?" hole.

I don't know what to tell ya Leroid, I haven't singled out any particular games. Figure out what you're arguing, or maybe who you're arguing with and try again.

Collier11

7/18/2010, 06:06 PM

If you do show me that, and I don't think you can, then you're admitting our talent is not above most other peeps. So, what do you want: support KW as some allsome OC, or show that our players are just about like everyone elses?

Support our players, or support the OC - you pick one and go for it. ;)

Well 1st, you can support both...why would you ever feel that you can only support one or the other? 2nd, I dont think KW is the top off coord in the game but I do think he is EASILY a top 10 off coord.

Curly Bill

7/18/2010, 06:07 PM

Well 1st, you can support both...why would you ever feel that you can only support one or the other? 2nd, I dont think KW is the top off coord in the game but I do think he is EASILY a top 10 off coord.

I guess you're gonna have to show me then all those games KW has won where the other team had similiar talent as ours. It shouldn't take long to finish that list. ;)

Collier11

7/18/2010, 06:18 PM

Well, you cant really say KW "won" the games, I will break it down into games where the offense performed well against like or better talent

In 09- This is a tough one to figure cus of all the injuries but the way I see it, here ya go

Stanford
Osu
@Kansas
A&M

08-

Florida- If our players dont screw up, we go into halftime up 17 or 21 to 7, I think that in itself shows that his game plan was adequate.
Tcu
Texas
Tech
Missouri
Osu

07-
Texas
Mizzou twice

Now I will list the games against like talent or better talent that I feel like the offense underperformed

09-
Tex
Neb
Tech

08-
None

07-
Colorado
West Virginia- Although we had a ton of injuries

By my count that is 12-5 in favor of KW.

Now, what say you? If you have games that arent on the underperformed list that you thought we did, let me know and ill explain why I didnt include them on the list

Leroy Lizard

7/18/2010, 06:56 PM

I don't know what to tell ya Leroid, I haven't singled out any particular games. Figure out what you're arguing, or maybe who you're arguing with and try again.

You still haven't responded to the 35-point argument, and you're not gonna'.

oudavid1

7/18/2010, 08:58 PM

No offense, but i want Wins not draft picks

Sooner-N-KS

7/18/2010, 09:06 PM

I was using the same logic as a KW detractor to demonstrate the absurdity of the logic. Under no circumstances do I think that the worth of a coach depends on a few isolated games (or even worse, plays).

He has had tremendous success. His offense set the NCAA record for scoring. He was voted Assistant Coach of the Year by his fellow assistant coaches. And we're going to throw all that out because he didn't call the plays YOU thought he should have, or his teams struggled in a few games.

Who knows more about what it takes to be a top offensive coordinator than fellow offensive coordinators? No one.

Fans of other teams must think we're psycho for even questioning KW's abilities.

Assistant Coach of the Year, and yet there are no BCS schools that want him as head coach. There have been plenty of openings.

Sooner-N-KS

7/18/2010, 09:12 PM

Collier11

7/18/2010, 09:25 PM

Talent based on what, recruiting rankings?

Curly Bill

7/18/2010, 10:47 PM

Curly Bill

7/18/2010, 10:48 PM

You still haven't responded to the 35-point argument, and you're not gonna'.

I'm not going to argue with you period.

...and like I said: it depends on various factors, it's not tied up in a nice pretty little bow like you might think.

Collier11

7/18/2010, 10:57 PM

Seriously?

Texas has as much talent as we do, maybe TCU in 08, other than that - NOPE! I mean you listed Mizzu - talk about a paper tiger, and Stanford and OSU last year. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL You're insane! :D

Mizzou was the #1 team in the country at one point, Stanford and OSU last year had just as much talent as us...all of our major talent was sitting on the sideline sucker

Curly Bill

7/18/2010, 10:59 PM

Mizzou was the #1 team in the country at one point, Stanford and OSU last year had just as much talent as us...all of our major talent was sitting on the sideline sucker

Thus the term paper tiger. :rolleyes:

...and OSU has never had as much talent as us across the board, and Stanford certainly didn't last year either.

Collier11

7/18/2010, 11:01 PM

goingoneight

7/18/2010, 11:02 PM

Explain why OU had one of it's ugliest offensive performances ever this year against Nebraska. Oh, and don't give any reasoning for it or I'll call it a "****ing excuse." :rolleyes:

Ooh, Ooh!!! Let me answer this one!

Could it be that Nebraska had arguably the best defense in the country and got a hot-and-cold road game team IN LINCOLN? Could it be that no matter what was called that night, either Nebraska had an answer or we found a way to mess it up?

Play-ation pass to Broyles: tipped and picked off.

Play-action again... SUUUUUUUUUH!

Shotgun run for 0 yards. I-formation run for 0 yards.

Jones strting to find a rhythm? Ah--- just kidding... picked off again.

C'mon kickers... oh, wait.

Jones to throw on third and long? To throw or not to throw? Picked.

FUMBLE!

Sacked again!

What would KW have been able to call with that personnel that would have made for the W?

Maybe call for Garrett Hartley? Sam Bradford? AD?

After what we've seen since 2006, I cannot believe some people feel the need to criticize KW.

1. A converted WR wins a conference title without AD.
2. A freshman nobody outside the 405 has ever heard of leads the nation in pass efficiency, shatters NCAA freshman records and wins the BIG 12's first consecutive title. A superstar TE emerges from out of nowhere.
3. 2008... 'nuff said. We go 12-2 with major D and ST problems in a league that puts up video game numbers offensively.

To quote Bud Wilkinson: "If you've never lost, you've never played the game." That among other things tells you nobody's perfect. The offense is as good as it has ever been under Stoops, and because a bunch of bad **** happens, all of a sudden we need to clean house? I got my gripes about certain things from time to time, but the product is among the best out there. It's not like you have a bunch of coaches out there who just win it all every single year.

Curly Bill

7/18/2010, 11:04 PM

Mizzou only had two losses, both to us.

We werent that good last year after we lost all of the guys, just face it, you are a blind KW and BV hater and will never give any of them the credit they deserve :D

BTW, you give me 3 names on each side of the ball that you like better and I will show you just as many games where their squads didnt perform...bet you dont ;)

You're right - they're absolutely great, I'm amazed at what they can do with inferior talent. I'm totally shocked that neither one has been snatched from us by one of the major college football powers, or the NFL even.

Collier11

7/18/2010, 11:05 PM

^Thats exactly the point Go8, they all have bad games but you arent gonna find too many better than KW or BV

Collier11

7/18/2010, 11:06 PM

You're right - they're absolutely great, I'm amazed at what they can do with inferior talent. I'm totally shocked that neither one has been snatched from us by one of the major college football powers, or the NFL even.

So again, for about the 10th time, when I ask you to give me coaches who are better you cant. Cus deep down, you know that we have it pretty damn good.

And again, being a good coord is different than being a good Head Coach. Why you think Bud Foster has never been a head coach? Why not Mickey Andrews when his FSU Ds were killing people. I could go on and on and on...

Curly Bill

7/18/2010, 11:09 PM

So again, for about the 10th time, when I ask you to give me coaches who are better you cant. Cus deep down, you know that we have it pretty damn good.

And again, being a good coord is different than being a good Head Coach. Why you think Bud Foster has never been a head coach? Why not Mickey Andrews when his FSU Ds were killing people. I could go on and on and on...

I just don't care enough to look into it for one thing. :D

...but I did at one point make a list of DC's I'd rather have than BV, and there were about 15 names on it. Where that list went I couldn't begin to tell ya.

Collier11

7/18/2010, 11:12 PM

All you have on your side is your misguided opinion, sorry Curly but until you give me a list and give me a chance to look through it, I win :D Im not saying KW and BV are the best, never have, just sayin that we have it really good with who we have.

And, you only see the mistakes that they make but I guarantee you that any coach on that list that ill be patiently waiting on I will be able to show you just as many games where they have had bad games

Curly Bill

7/18/2010, 11:14 PM

Leroy Lizard

7/18/2010, 11:15 PM

I'm not going to argue with you period.

...and like I said: it depends on various factors, it's not tied up in a nice pretty little bow like you might think.

Then why did you think it was ridiculous for me to state that OU "held a team to 33 points"?

You sure didn't apply a whole lot of factors there, did you?

Why not admit you blew it?

Curly Bill

7/18/2010, 11:16 PM

Then why did you think it was ridiculous for me to state that OU "held a team to 33 points"?

You sure didn't apply a whole lot of factors there, did you?

Why not admit you blew it?

I'll admit that your wife did.

Tell her I said thanks.

Collier11

7/18/2010, 11:19 PM

You guys that make lists and do research and all that stuff to try and win an argument on here sorta crack me up. I mean we're arguing on the internet for crying out loud.
I don't care enough about any of it to be making any lists, especially ones that might require some research on my part. Hell, this isn't a job.

Thats a cop out and you only say that cus you know that you wont be right.

Why else do you post on a message board? I mean, you can have your motivations but you cant say your opinion is correct if you arent willing to debate it. Cmon Curly, it may be a while before we can ever debate sports over a cold beer so for the time being, this is all we have :D

Curly Bill

7/18/2010, 11:20 PM

Thats a cop out and you only say that cus you know that you wont be right.

Why else do you post on a message board? I mean, you can have your motivations but you cant say your opinion is correct if you arent willing to debate it. Cmon Curly, it may be a while before we can ever debate sports over a cold beer so for the time being, this is all we have :D

I'll debate it, but I sure as hell ain't puttin any work into it. :cool:

Collier11

7/18/2010, 11:22 PM

Well im just sayin, If im gonna tell you that BV and KW are two of the top 10-15 off and def coord in the nation I am willing to but numbers behind it, if you say they arent, you need to show me how they arent. Or at the least, tell me who is better and id be happy to put the work in to find the numbers for you

Leroy Lizard

7/18/2010, 11:24 PM

To quote Bud Wilkinson: "If you've never lost, you've never played the game." That among other things tells you nobody's perfect. The offense is as good as it has ever been under Stoops, and because a bunch of bad **** happens, all of a sudden we need to clean house? I got my gripes about certain things from time to time, but the product is among the best out there. It's not like you have a bunch of coaches out there who just win it all every single year.

Who is this guy named Bud Wilkinson and by what right does he think he knows more about football than OU fans?

I'll admit that your wife did.

Tell her I said thanks.

Oh ho!! We've been beaten down so badly that we now have to start insulting the posters' wives.

You're a loser.

Curly Bill

7/18/2010, 11:25 PM

If you're saying they're in the top 15 I won't argue that.

Top 10 we're getting a little sketchy.

Top 5 = no way

There's you some more opinion, and I ain't gonna back it up with a damn thing. :D

Collier11

7/18/2010, 11:27 PM

Ill put it this way

KW

Gameplanning- Top 5
In game Adjustments- lacking at times

BV- Gameplanning- Top 5
In Game Adjustments- lacking at times

Curly Bill

7/18/2010, 11:28 PM

Oh ho!! We've been beaten down so badly that we now have to start insulting the posters' wives.

You're a loser.

I know right! and yet your old lady keeps calling me, so what does that say about you? ;)

Curly Bill

7/18/2010, 11:32 PM

Ill put it this way

KW

Gameplanning- Top 5
In game Adjustments- lacking at times

BV- Gameplanning- Top 5
In Game Adjustments- lacking at times

That's because both have an IQ of just about average - nothing special. They know what they know, what they've learned from others in the past, and when they need to come up with something different, make an adjustment, come up with something special, they're lacking.

They remind me of a lot of football coaches I know - they know some football because they've been around it so much, but lack the mental firepower to think outside what it is they already have been exposed to. Nothing really wrong with that - like I said: that's most football coaches for ya.

Collier11

7/18/2010, 11:33 PM

I disagree slightly, I have seen them both make very good adjustments in game after game, I think where they lack is that they are slow to do it, by a series or 2 usually

Curly Bill

7/18/2010, 11:36 PM

I disagree slightly, I have seen them both make very good adjustments in game after game, I think where they lack is that they are slow to do it, by a series or 2 usually

Heh, you said they're slow. :D

Collier11

7/18/2010, 11:39 PM

well, a perfect example is how we shut down Florida for 3 quarters basically but in the 4th quarter we couldnt find an answer to the TE option. Also, the year we were getting torched over the middle against tex, BV got it fixed but not til they had exploited it for about 3 series in a row

Curly Bill

7/18/2010, 11:41 PM

Leroy Lizard

7/18/2010, 11:46 PM

If I was gameplanning against a BV defense it would start with picking on the short to middle center of the field.

Since you're such an expert, why not give out your number to all those defensive coordinators that need your advice? They already have your wife's.

Curly Bill

7/18/2010, 11:46 PM

Curly Bill

7/18/2010, 11:48 PM

Since you're such an expert, why not give out your number to all those defensive coordinators that need your advice? They already have your wife's.

I am somewhat an expert. Thanks for noticing.

...and I kicked my wife to the curb a coupla years ago - they can knock themselves out with it.

Eielson

7/19/2010, 12:53 AM

If I was gameplanning against a BV defense it would start with picking on the short to middle center of the field.

You think like Texas. How does that make you feel?

Curly Bill

7/19/2010, 01:08 AM

You think like Texas. How does that make you feel?

Kinda bad when you say it like that. :(

...but they have had our number lately, so..........

Collier11

7/19/2010, 01:11 AM

thats why I have no reason with them being ranked higher, when you win 4 out of 5 you are the better team until proven differently

Curly Bill

7/19/2010, 01:13 AM

Yep, no reason we should be ranked higher than Saxet to start the year, I mean beyond the fact I hate em.

Collier11

7/19/2010, 01:15 AM

well yea, there is that

Eielson

7/19/2010, 02:01 AM

Yep, no reason we should be ranked higher than Saxet to start the year, I mean beyond the fact I hate em.

That's enough for me.

oudavid1

7/19/2010, 02:03 AM

lets no bring peoples wives into this gentleman.

oh and btw, Texas dosnt have what OU has coming back, thats why people think OU is better. Which is why they are ranked higher, and Andre Ware said Wyoming beats texas at Austin this year and hes been good so far

Collier11

7/19/2010, 02:04 AM

good or lucky, cmon David, youre smarter than that

Eielson

7/19/2010, 02:05 AM

Curly Bill

7/19/2010, 02:06 AM

lets no bring peoples wives into this gentleman.

Leroid started it!

Oh wait...I started it. :P ;) :D

Sooner-N-KS

7/19/2010, 07:30 AM

Mizzou was the #1 team in the country at one point, Stanford and OSU last year had just as much talent as us...all of our major talent was sitting on the sideline sucker

DEFENSES!!!!!! We're talking about defenses, remember?

Do you really mean to tell me that you didn't chuckle a little when they had Missouri ranked #1 for one week, knowing that they were way overrated? They had a great offense, and Venables had their number. But their defense was very average. As a team Missouri beat up on other very average teams.

When we're talking about KW's opponents we are only talking about the defense, not how well Chase Daniel picks his nose on TV.

Who had the good defenses in 2008? Missouri or Texas and Florida?

http://www.collegesports-fans.com/bowl-previews/2008-alamo-bowl.html
"However, Missouri’s defense is not very good. The Tigers are the 116th rated pass defense in Division 1-A college football and have allowed 27.5 points per game this season. Against the five teams they played that have been ranked, that number jumps up to a whopping 45.6 points! That is definitely not a good sign for Gary Pinkel’s team."

OUthunder

7/19/2010, 09:37 AM

I still can't get the last quarter of the LSU game out of my head. I'll take Josh over KW.

boomermagic

7/19/2010, 10:22 AM

Wilson..

Mississippi Sooner

7/19/2010, 11:15 AM

Fire Donnie Duncan!!! :texan:

Howzit

7/19/2010, 11:59 AM

When Josh was a kid he was at a game his dad was coaching, and at half time they had the following conversation:

Josh is all like: Hey, dad, they aren't defending the flat.

Josh's Dad is all like: Huh?

Josh is all like: Yeah.

Josh's Dad is all like: Ok.

So I vote Josh.

Leroy Lizard

7/19/2010, 12:19 PM

Who had the good defenses in 2008? Missouri or Texas and Florida?

Did Texas?

We scored 35 on them. Was that a good showing? (Curly still can't figure his way out of this one.)

Sooner-N-KS

7/19/2010, 01:32 PM

Did Texas?

We scored 35 on them. Was that a good showing? (Curly still can't figure his way out of this one.)

Sure, it was a good showing. But a great showing would have won the game.

Leroy Lizard

7/19/2010, 01:42 PM

Sure, it was a good showing. But a great showing would have won the game.

If we had won, would that have changed your view on whether 35 points is a good or great showing?

I just want to find out whether the OC is responsible for defense as well.

(Just as a note: Switzer only scored more than 35 points against UT three times. And the UT teams he faced were typically not as good as those Stoops faced.)

TahoeSOONER

7/19/2010, 01:57 PM

Everyone knows 35 points should have won that game, get over it.

Funny how you get on people for picking apart certain play calling, the role of an OC, yet you ask that dumb @ss question? Yes, the OC is responsible for both sides of the ball. Is that what you wanted to hear? Doesn't make it true.

Wilson has shown consistency over the years and it a top notch coordinator but there's nothing wrong with showing examples of errors of judgement. He's not going to be perfect but he's one of the best in the land and a true Sooner.

Curly Bill

7/19/2010, 01:59 PM

Leroid's still mad his old lady won't quit calling me.

Hell, I can't even get her to stop. :D

Leroy Lizard

7/19/2010, 01:59 PM

Sooner-N-KS

7/19/2010, 02:02 PM

If we had won, would that have changed your view on whether 35 points is a good or great showing?

I just want to find out whether the OC is responsible for defense as well.

(Just as a note: Switzer only scored more than 35 points against UT three times. And the UT teams he faced were typically not as good as those Stoops faced.)

If you had read my other points you would know that I blame Venables for that loss for not having a backup ready at middle linebacker.

The post you are responding to shows me acknowledging that it was a good offensive showing, but not great. Good isn't good enough in the Cotton Bowl.

Since you want to bring the King into this, what do you think he would say about 48 total yards rushing? Do you think he would beat Texas with only 48 yards rushing?

Earlier we were talking about the ability to adjust. OUr offense started off the game well. Texas adjusted, and OU stopped scoring. KW couldn't adjust in response to the Texas adjustment. It looks like there were only a total of about 65 4th quarter yards. When the chips were down and facing adversity KW once again folded.

Sooner-N-KS

7/19/2010, 02:07 PM

Wilson has shown consistency over the years and it a top notch coordinator but there's nothing wrong with showing examples of errors of judgement. He's not going to be perfect but he's one of the best in the land and a true Sooner.

I agree 100% with this statement. KW has shown consistency.

He has consistently knocked the crap out of defenses with less talented players than he has on offense. He has also consistently lost when playing against defenses that match their talent level.

I don't get my kicks from running up the scoring against bad defenses like Kansas St., Missouri or Baylor. I want to outscore tough defensive opponents like Texas and Florida.

Curly Bill

7/19/2010, 02:09 PM

...but...but...but... scoring record, blah, blah, blah...:rolleyes:

Eielson

7/19/2010, 02:10 PM

I seriously want somebody to name 5 offenses that were more talented than ours was the season we lost to Florida.

Leroy Lizard

7/19/2010, 02:21 PM

...but...but...but... scoring record, blah, blah, blah...:rolleyes:

The job of an offense is to score. The job of the OC is to produce an offense that can score.

So an NCAA scoring record is a big deal.

Again, the assistant coaches in this country voted him the best. And they know more than you do.

TahoeSOONER

7/19/2010, 02:24 PM

I agree 100% with this statement. KW has shown consistency.

He has consistently knocked the crap out of defenses with less talented players than he has on offense. He has also consistently lost when playing against defenses that match their talent level.

I don't get my kicks from running up the scoring against bad defenses like Kansas St., Missouri or Baylor. I want to outscore tough defensive opponents like Texas and Florida.

Even though a QB sneak put's us up big at half in a NC in Florida I'm not blaming Wilson for that loss or any loss over the years for that matter. Last years Texas game was a shell of an Oklahoma offense that was battered by injuries. The year before we lost to Texas because we couldn't cover the middle on defense.

Wilson is solid and I'm sure with some Oline play that can run block this year we will be back to normal point production on O. Bama' showed what OU already has known but didn't have the hoggies up front to do last year, run at Texas. It will open up the passing game even though Bama didn't need the pass because their D was forcing turnovers.

Leroy Lizard

7/19/2010, 02:26 PM

Even though a QB sneak put's us up big at half in a NC in Florida.

Sure, if it works. That goes without saying.

Curly Bill

7/19/2010, 02:30 PM

The job of an offense is to score. The job of the OC is to produce an offense that can score.

So an NCAA scoring record is a big deal.

Again, the assistant coaches in this country voted him the best. And they know more than you do.

But sometimes it matters when and who you score those points against. Let me give you an example:

Coordinator A:

1. He scores 70 points against Dirt Bag State, who is really terrible, and his
team wins 70-0.
2. He scores 15 points against White Trash State, who is pretty good, and
his team loses 28-15.
3. So, coordinator A has scored 85 points and his team's record is 1-1.

Coordinator B:
1. His team also plays Dirt Bag State, who is really terrible, and his team wins
50-0.
2. His team also plays White Trash State, who is pretty good, and his team
scores 20 points and his team wins 20-16.
3. So, coordinator B has scored 70 points and his team is 2-0.

So, obviously coordinator A is better right, I mean he scored more points than coordinator B did? Or, is it a mirage because coordinator A scored a lot of his points against a team that couldn't play dead? Give me coordinator B, who scored less points but managed to score them when he needed to.

In short: total number of points scored proves not a whole hell of a lot.

TahoeSOONER

7/19/2010, 02:30 PM

Sure, if it works. That goes without saying.

You have two downs from the one! Get to the line of scrimmage, stop looking over to the sidelines, and put your head down and get a yard. It would've worked, Sam had it in him, but it's risking your QB.

Either way, we gotta find a way to get in there and most OC would've snuck it in with the QB IMHO.

Curly Bill

7/19/2010, 02:37 PM

You have two downs from the one! Get to the line of scrimmage, stop looking over to the sidelines, and put your head down and get a yard. It would've worked, Sam had it in him, but it's risking your QB.

Either way, we gotta find a way to get in there and most OC would've snuck it in with the QB IMHO.

Did you not hear? KW set the MFing NCAA scoring record!!!!

What more do you want????

oudavid1

7/19/2010, 02:43 PM

Right is right guys, ohh wait im like reallllly late

Leroy Lizard

7/19/2010, 02:53 PM

Leroy Lizard

7/19/2010, 03:06 PM

But sometimes it matters when and who you score those points against. Let me give you an example:

Coordinator A:

1. He scores 70 points against Dirt Bag State, who is really terrible, and his
team wins 70-0.
2. He scores 15 points against White Trash State, who is pretty good, and
his team loses 28-15.
3. So, coordinator A has scored 85 points and his team's record is 1-1.

Your comparison might make sense if we had played a bunch of directional teams, but Oklahoma played a reasonable schedule in 2008. (Cinncinatti and TCU were two of our four OOC games. Are you calling that pitiful?) Yet they set the NCAA scoring record. Plenty of teams have faced far easier schedules and scored far less.

The UT team that we faced in 2008 was probably better than all but one UT team that Switzer faced, and we ran up 35 points on them. Ask Switzer if scoring 35 points against Texas should be adequate to win.

Any criticism aimed at KW can also be aimed at Stoops. After all, he hasn't won a title in 10 years. So why not take aim at him? (And I'm not saying we should.)

Leroy Lizard

7/19/2010, 03:10 PM

Did you not hear? KW set the MFing NCAA scoring record!!!!

What more do you want????

It's like a sales person setting a sales record. Sales are his job. If he sets the record, are you going to blame him if the company has a bad year? "Well, he could have sold more, so it's his fault."

There isn't an OC in the country who cannot be second-guessed on a call here or there, just like there isn't a salesman in the country that nailed every account.

oudavid1

7/19/2010, 03:19 PM

I believe this thread was Josh or Kevin, not Kevin or someone else. KW has proven himself, some of you posters on the other hand......well your not OCs anywhere........yet (ill give you the benefit of the doubt)

http://newsimg.ngfiles.com/170000/170422_dancing_banana.gif

Eielson

7/19/2010, 04:52 PM

I seriously want somebody to name 5 offenses that were more talented than ours was the season we lost to Florida.

Fine. Somebody name three?

Sooner-N-KS

7/19/2010, 05:05 PM

I seriously want somebody to name 5 offenses that were more talented than ours was the season we lost to Florida.

There weren't ANY offenses that had more TALENT than OU had that year.

I don't keep up with all of the teams, but I would venture to guess that there were plenty more teams out there that were coached in such a way that they excelled above their raw talent level. I would list Taco Tech as one offense that excelled because of coaching. Missouri was probably better on offense than their talent level.

Eielson

7/19/2010, 05:13 PM

There weren't ANY offenses that had more TALENT than OU had that year.

I don't keep up with all of the teams, but I would venture to guess that there were plenty more teams out there that were coached in such a way that they excelled above their raw talent level. I would list Taco Tech as one offense that excelled because of coaching. Missouri was probably better on offense than their talent level.

I didn't ask the question right. I wanted somebody to name five offenses that had more talent EVER. I believe we were looking at one of the all-time great offenses.

Leroy Lizard

7/19/2010, 05:25 PM

I didn't ask the question right. I wanted somebody to name five offenses that had more talent EVER. I believe we were looking at one of the all-time great offenses.

I would suggest the 1987 Miami offense was as talented. USC has put plenty of players in the NFL as well.

But there is one problem with your argument: Good offenses make good players look even better. So you end up with a circular argument. If the offense sucked, with Bradford having no one to throw to down after down, wouldn't that diminish his stature and that of his WRs?

NormanPride

7/19/2010, 05:43 PM

The biggest advantage our O had on 08 was the defense's lack of prep-time. Other teams simply did not have the time to prepare for our offense. That wasn't the case with Florida.

As for the TE option in that game, we defended it perfectly about 5 times before they hit twice on it when Beal was too tired to catch Hernandez (who is much MUCH faster). It's a play designed to pick on the DE's decisionmaking and athleticism, and Beal played it perfectly for a long time. He was one of the main reasons their O wasn't working as well. But when he got tired, they took advantage and we didn't have anyone behind him that was smart enough to do his job. :(

Collier11

7/19/2010, 05:51 PM

Fine. Somebody name three?

Wasnt this the original point of my argument, you were arguing against this point werent you? Correct me if im wrong...

Leroy Lizard

7/19/2010, 05:51 PM

The biggest advantage our O had on 08 was the defense's lack of prep-time. Other teams simply did not have the time to prepare for our offense. That wasn't the case with Florida.

That's true for every offense in the country in every year.

Eielson

7/19/2010, 06:16 PM

Wasnt this the original point of my argument, you were arguing against this point werent you? Correct me if im wrong...

You're wrong.

Eielson

7/19/2010, 06:18 PM

I would suggest the 1987 Miami offense was as talented.

So you're saying that our offense was tied for the most talented of all-time? There goes practically your whole argument. :rolleyes:

Collier11

7/19/2010, 06:20 PM

You're wrong.

well its the original point I made and you just agreed with it so you can either explain why you think im wrong or you can just look clueless as usual, tryin to have an actual conversation here

Sooner-N-KS

7/19/2010, 06:22 PM

I didn't ask the question right. I wanted somebody to name five offenses that had more talent EVER. I believe we were looking at one of the all-time great offenses.

I agree. But my point is that with a more competent OC they would have been even better.

Eielson

7/19/2010, 06:25 PM

well its the original point I made and you just agreed with it so you can either explain why you think im wrong or you can just look clueless as usual, tryin to have an actual conversation here

I agree that our offense in '08 was one of the most talented of all-time.

Collier11

7/19/2010, 06:25 PM

I agree. But my point is that with a more competent OC they would have been even better.

Please explain how that would be possible? Murray was hurt much of the year, our two receivers while really good college receivers were not Great by any standard, plus Manny was hurt for a while.

KW got more out of this offense than anyone in history, Id like to know how you think that he couldve gotten more?

Collier11

7/19/2010, 06:26 PM

I agree that our offense in '08 was one of the most talented of all-time.

What level of the success are you putting on KW?

Leroy Lizard

7/19/2010, 06:27 PM

So you're saying that our offense was tied for the most talented of all-time? There goes practically your whole argument. :rolleyes:

I just threw one out. I didn't say that was the only one.

Your argument is moot anyway. Good OCs make offenses look talented.

Eielson

7/19/2010, 06:28 PM

So are you talking pure talent only or top to bottom, from coaching to the players to the execution, etc...

Players.

Leroy Lizard

7/19/2010, 06:30 PM

I agree. But my point is that with a more competent OC they would have been even better.

Fallacy by prophecy.

"KW isn't very good."

"KW did pretty well in 2008."

"They would have done better without him."

Eielson

7/19/2010, 06:34 PM

Every offensive coordinator in the country would look amazing if you only judged them by how they did with the most talented offense of all-time.

Collier11

7/19/2010, 06:38 PM

If you are saying they were that good merely cus of how talented they were, id def argue that. I think the 08 Florida offense, the USC offenses of earlier in the decade, some of the Nebraska and OU offenses in the 70s and 80s, Nebraska of 95, plus a bunch more im sure, were all way more talented.

Sooner-N-KS

7/19/2010, 06:54 PM

Fallacy by prophecy.

"KW isn't very good."

"KW did pretty well in 2008."

"They would have done better without him."

Not at all. KW did good with the extreme talent he had in 2008. I would prefer OU had a great OC rather than just good.

I didn't say they would have done better without him. They could have done much worse without him possibly. But I believe they could have been even better with a better OC.......even undefeated.

Sooner-N-KS

7/19/2010, 06:55 PM

Every offensive coordinator in the country would look amazing if you only judged them by how they did with the most talented offense of all-time.

That's exactly what we're saying. They weren't talented simply because KW was the OC.

Sooner-N-KS

7/19/2010, 06:58 PM

Please explain how that would be possible? Murray was hurt much of the year, our two receivers while really good college receivers were not Great by any standard, plus Manny was hurt for a while.

KW got more out of this offense than anyone in history, Id like to know how you think that he couldve gotten more?

First and foremost would be the ability to adjust during the game. KW gets a game plan, and he's going to stick with it. Texas 2008 is a great example. KW started with a good game plan. Muschamp adjusted his defense and shut KW's offense down. KW didn't adjust and kept getting the same results.

Collier11

7/19/2010, 06:59 PM

Collier11

7/19/2010, 07:01 PM

First and foremost would be the ability to adjust during the game. KW gets a game plan, and he's going to stick with it. Texas 2008 is a great example. KW started with a good game plan. Muschamp adjusted his defense and shut KW's offense down. KW didn't adjust and kept getting the same results.

We scored 35 on a top 10 D, sometimes you need your D to step up and get a key stop, and vice versa, sometimes you need your off to get a key 1st down to keep your D off the field.

Leroy Lizard

7/19/2010, 07:27 PM

First and foremost would be the ability to adjust during the game. KW gets a game plan, and he's going to stick with it. Texas 2008 is a great example. KW started with a good game plan. Muschamp adjusted his defense and shut KW's offense down. KW didn't adjust and kept getting the same results.

The grand difference between first-half and second-half scoring performance amounted to a single touchdown.

OU rolled up 438 yards of offense, UT 435.

Sure, blame the OC.

oudavid1

7/19/2010, 10:15 PM

lets all relax

http://newsimg.ngfiles.com/170000/170422_dancing_banana.gif

Curly Bill

7/19/2010, 11:43 PM

You have to have someone who knows what they are doing pulling the strings, if you dont think KW is a good one and had a big part of that teams success then I question your knowledge on the topic.

Again, im not saying he is the best, I put KW and BV both firmly in the top 15, possibly top 10 some years, but they are certainly top notch

I would argue that year in year out we have top 5 caliber talent, not every year perhaps, but often as not. And here we are working with roughly top 15 caliber coordinators. That's my argument, not that these guys are terrible, but that they don't measure up to the level of talent that they're given.

Leroy Lizard

7/20/2010, 12:17 AM

I would argue that year in year out we have top 5 caliber talent, not every years perhaps, but often as not. And here we are working with roughly top 15 caliber coordinators.

Then you should be calling for the firing of Coach Stoops if you really believe that.

Eielson

7/20/2010, 06:42 AM

Saying Stoops isn't top 5, or even top 10 is just being a troll.

gaylordfan1

7/20/2010, 09:12 AM

Sooner-N-KS

7/20/2010, 09:27 AM

This has been said before.... For those that want BV and KW gone, then who would you replace them with? Who is currently available? And would they be better at the job than what we have now? I feel very comfortable with what we have. More often than not the grass is never greener on the other side.

I would love to see what Josh could do. Major Applewhite was OC at Alabama at a much younger age than Josh is now, and I would take Josh's football brain over Applewhite any day.

Josh has succeeded at every single thing he's done in football that I can see. There may be behind the scene things that we can't see and don't know about....but that's speculation. I would find it hard to believe that he's not a leader after taking that bunch to a national championship win in the 2000 season.

gaylordfan1

7/20/2010, 09:36 AM

I think Bobby knows what he has and will utilize what he has when he needs to. Who knows, Josh may be the one saying that he isn't ready. Not that Stoops would yank KW out and bring Josh in, esp after what KW has done for our offense. You got to realize the experience he is getting is top notch.

soonerborn30

7/20/2010, 01:36 PM

You have to have someone who knows what they are doing pulling the strings, if you dont think KW is a good one and had a big part of that teams success then I question your knowledge on the topic.

Again, im not saying he is the best, I put KW and BV both firmly in the top 15, possibly top 10 some years, but they are certainly top notch

This is the mindset I don't understand. Why should we settle for top 15? Why is just top 15 OK? Shouldn't we be shooting for more? Don't ask me to name specific coaches that could do better than KW, because no one can. I just don't think we should be satisfied with "you can't win 'em all".

Leroy Lizard

7/20/2010, 03:56 PM

Saying Stoops isn't top 5, or even top 10 is just being a troll.

His job is to bring in the coaches to run the system, and the OC and DC are the two biggest hires. Many are saying in here that his choices have been substandard. If he cannot do an adequate of talent evaluation and/or has no will to make changes, then he must go.

Or so goes the logic.

Leroy Lizard

7/20/2010, 03:59 PM

I would love to see what Josh could do.

I would too. Let him go to Southern Miss as OC and show us what he can do.

But not here. At least not at this time.

Hiring former players is dangerous. We have a big emotional attachment to the players that blinds us to their weaknesses. (Coaches are more rational in their approach.)

Josh has succeeded at every single thing he's done in football that I can see.

Ever heard of the Peter Principle?

Sooner-N-KS

7/20/2010, 10:19 PM

I would too. Let him go to Southern Miss as OC and show us what he can do.

But not here. At least not at this time.

It's my understanding that Josh was the winning OC in the spring game. If that's true I would call it impressive.

Leroy Lizard

7/20/2010, 10:29 PM

It's my understanding that Josh was the winning OC in the spring game. If that's true I would call it impressive.

I'm not sure what that really means. He designed the offense? He coached the position coaches on what is needed to run the offense?

If he just called the plays, BFD.

Eielson

7/20/2010, 10:39 PM

If he just called the plays, BFD.

Playcalling is kinda important for an OC.:rolleyes:

goingoneight

7/20/2010, 10:51 PM

It's my understanding that Josh was the winning OC in the spring game. If that's true I would call it impressive.

Perhaps you realize that the terminology and playbook are the same in this said situation. Or maybe you heard that while there was a little scrimmage going on with lop-sided rosters, that all of the respective coaches still had a big hand in their normal duties? Is it really impressive that Landry Jones showed Drew Allen up? I mean, he does have 13 games on DA.

Just sayin'

goingoneight

7/20/2010, 10:55 PM

Playcalling is kinda important for an OC.:rolleyes:

Then it's settled! Let's hire him now!

I like Heupel as much as anybody, but seriously folks... when the day comes that Wilson is gone, there's still a chance Heupel's not next in line, as Norvell has OC experience. Even if Heupel was next in line, it's gonna be a big gamble turning the offense over to a first time, position coach-turned-full-time coordinator.

Eielson

7/20/2010, 11:02 PM

Then it's settled! Let's hire him now!

That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that downplaying the importance of playcalling for an offensive coordinator is beyond idiotic.

Leroy Lizard

7/20/2010, 11:12 PM

Playcalling is kinda important for an OC.:rolleyes:

The real job of the OC takes place during the week and in the spring, not Game Day. After all, Terry Bradshaw called his own plays and his team won four Super Bowls. He was hardly an offensive coordinator.

It's like a trial lawyer. We all see the lawyers in court and think that's the essence of their activities. But I think most lawyers will tell you that trials are won outside the courtroom.

Now, I will turn over the discussion to the "I Cannot Agree with Lizard No Matter What" peanut gallery.

Collier11

7/20/2010, 11:33 PM

This is the mindset I don't understand. Why should we settle for top 15? Why is just top 15 OK? Shouldn't we be shooting for more? Don't ask me to name specific coaches that could do better than KW, because no one can. I just don't think we should be satisfied with "you can't win 'em all".

Well 1st, thats my opinion, Not Coach Stoops opinion necessarily. 2nd, top 15 is a vague number that I suggested because I havent done the research on each individual coordinator, what im saying is he is def top 15, possibly top 10. I dont think either are top 5 as far as a total package.

oudavid1

7/21/2010, 01:24 AM

http://newsimg.ngfiles.com/170000/170422_dancing_banana.gif

Leroy Lizard

7/21/2010, 01:37 AM

Then it's settled! Let's hire him now!

I like Heupel as much as anybody, but seriously folks... when the day comes that Wilson is gone, there's still a chance Heupel's not next in line, as Norvell has OC experience. Even if Heupel was next in line, it's gonna be a big gamble turning the offense over to a first time, position coach-turned-full-time coordinator.

Who's the girl in your avatar?

Sooner-N-KS

7/21/2010, 07:13 AM

I'm not sure what that really means. He designed the offense? He coached the position coaches on what is needed to run the offense?

If he just called the plays, BFD.

Maybe KW excels at designing plays, but he sure has times when he struggles to call the right play in close games. I don't think Josh would call a play to hand the ball to Matt Clapp on 3rd & 6.

Sooner-N-KS

7/21/2010, 07:15 AM

The real job of the OC takes place during the week and in the spring, not Game Day. After all, Terry Bradshaw called his own plays and his team won four Super Bowls. He was hardly an offensive coordinator.

It's like a trial lawyer. We all see the lawyers in court and think that's the essence of their activities. But I think most lawyers will tell you that trials are won outside the courtroom.

Now, I will turn over the discussion to the "I Cannot Agree with Lizard No Matter What" peanut gallery.

I'm willing to play here. Let KW be the OC during the week, but let Josh call the game.

Leroy Lizard

7/21/2010, 11:15 AM

Maybe KW excels at designing plays, but he sure has times when he struggles to call the right play in close games. I don't think Josh would call a play to hand the ball to Matt Clapp on 3rd & 6.

I am sure that once Josh calls the plays for a season, we will find plenty of individual examples to gripe about.

I'm willing to play here. Let KW be the OC during the week, but let Josh call the game.

We need to get off the "play-calling" crap. No OC has ever called a season without the fans nitpicking a play here and a play there. It comes with the territory.

oudavid1

12/6/2010, 05:55 PM

bump for relevancy

CarolinaSoonerFan

12/7/2010, 01:26 PM

I say we ship Wilson off to Indiana.

OhU1

12/7/2010, 01:55 PM

The answer is "C": Greg Davis.

AlboSooner

12/7/2010, 03:59 PM

85sooners

12/7/2010, 06:03 PM

:gary:

Leroy Lizard

12/7/2010, 06:07 PM

There no evidence pro or against Josh Heupel. IN this case he would have to learn from Kevin Wilson, and I'd like to have the teacher rather than the pupil, regardless how kindly I think of the pupil.

This.

I think some of us want Josh to be the OC for the wrong reasons. We like him and he did great things for the program, but is he really the best choice for OC?

I'll leave it up to Stoops to decide.

ashley

12/7/2010, 08:30 PM

I agree. I will take experience.
BTW, half time adjustments are the most overrated concept in football.

Leroy Lizard

12/8/2010, 01:27 AM

I agree. I will take experience.
BTW, half time adjustments are the most overrated concept in football.

That and pre-game pep talks.

SoonerPr8r

12/8/2010, 11:28 AM

The co-coordinator situation wouldn't be too bad. Have Norvell up in the booth and Heupel on the sideline. I have a feeling that Josh would bring some fresh ideas to the table but may be more productive if he has someone more experienced looking over his shoulder. Norvell just doesn't seem like an OC leader type of guy. I kinda wish we had Sumlin back. That would be a much easier decision to make.

bmjlr

12/8/2010, 11:43 AM

The answer is "C": Greg Davis.

Wouldn't it be sweet if that happened and OU won 3 national championships in a row...just to stick it to Texas even more!

Ok, that will not happen with him, but would be funny.