Van Susteren interviews (Dammit) Janet Napolitano

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

What a suck-up. But hey, it's expected from Greta. You pinks who don't think FoxNews is fair to the commies should have seen the show. You would have been pleased.

[SicEmBaylor]

I weep for the Republic.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I weep for the Republic.As you should. You will be doing lots of that after the new Amnesty for Illegals, which will most likely be enacted, somehow, before the November election, and most assuredly before the 2012 election.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

What a suck-up. But hey, it's expected from Greta. You pinks who don't think FoxNews is fair to the commies should have seen the show. You would have been pleased.

The un-communist thing to do would be to let businesses decide who gets work permits (beyond a terrorist/felon screening), instead of government. But you, lizard, and Sic'em are suck-ups to big brother government, as long as it's state and local government.

Tyranny is tyranny, whether is federal, state, county, city, or school board.

We've got to get government to stop inhibiting the free flow of labor.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

As you should. You will be doing lots of that after the new Amnesty for Illegals, which will most likely be enacted, somehow, before the November election, and most assuredly before the 2012 election.

There will be no amnesty before or after the election. Lies, lies, lies.

[SicEmBaylor]

This thread makes me feel like I accidentally stepped onto the short bus. I'm going to get off now.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

This thread makes me feel like I accidentally stepped onto the short bus. I'm going to get off now.Buh Bye

[Turd_Ferguson]

We've got to get government to start enforcing immigration laws so AZ doesn't have to do it for them.fixed.

[Leroy Lizard]

The un-communist thing to do would be to let businesses decide who gets work permits (beyond a terrorist/felon screening), instead of government. But you, lizard, and Sic'em are suck-ups to big brother government, as long as it's state and local government.

I'm not necessarily opposed to work permits if conditions are met to ensure that we don't increase the number of migrants becoming citizens.

1. No kids. Kids must stay in Mexico.
2. No pregnant women.

Abide by those two, and I'm willing to listen.

To label as "communist" efforts to prevent huge masses of unskilled impoverished labor into the country is stupid.

[Flagstaffsooner]

That wont work. mexicans are always pregnant.

[Leroy Lizard]

That wont work. mexicans are always pregnant.

Hopefully at least half of them aren't.

[soonerboomer93]

We've got to get government to stop inhibiting the free flow of labor.

Why is this? There's already a system in place. You get a sponsor, fill in the paper work and get a work visa. This is a pretty standard system used by a whole lot of countries.

I spend 18 months, working in South Korea. Do you think I just hoped on a plan, got there and said hey, I want a job? I was issued my 30 day work visa, arrived there, then had to do additional paperwork for my 1 year non-resident work permit. I had to carry the permit with me 24/7 and present it at any time requested by Police, border patrol, and actually, the only time I ever got asked, it was by their coast gaurd. My friend who spent 6 years in Brazil, working, had to get a work visa. His was a lot harder to get then mine. There are lots of illegals in the states, but I've meet plenty of people over here on legal work visa. This includes engineers, cad-designers and frankly, welders.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Why is this? There's already a system in place. You get a sponsor, fill in the paper work and get a work visa. This is a pretty standard system used by a whole lot of countries.

I spend 18 months, working in South Korea. Do you think I just hoped on a plan, got there and said hey, I want a job? I was issued my 30 day work visa, arrived there, then had to do additional paperwork for my 1 year non-resident work permit. I had to carry the permit with me 24/7 and present it at any time requested by Police, border patrol, and actually, the only time I ever got asked, it was by their coast gaurd. My friend who spent 6 years in Brazil, working, had to get a work visa. His was a lot harder to get then mine. There are lots of illegals in the states, but I've meet plenty of people over here on legal work visa. This includes engineers, cad-designers and frankly, welders.

Thanks for the call, SB93. I know not all of you listeners out there can tune in for the full three hours, so let me give you, in a nutshell, what was discussed during the first two hours.

First, let me repeat my belief that I have no expectation of significant worker visa reform until we have clearly moved beyond the recession hangover. It won’t happen until labor demands return to what they were like during the Reagan/Clinton years. God Bless America.

For the occupations of food prep, hotel/restaurant/tourism, agriculture, maintenance, construction, domestic/child care, and landscaping the work permit options are the H2A and the H2B work permits.

The H2B, for non-agricultural jobs is limited to 66,000 per year. During the years of high labor demand, 1982 to 2007, to economy was easily demanding 400,000 additional, new workers per year. The H2B is feasible for some seasonal jobs, like working ski season or high tourist season at an amusement park, but doesn’t work for others. For example, Olevet was looking for a cook who knew Oaxacan-style tamales and moles for his taqueria, but he was $hit-out-of-luck. No way a taqueria cook gets an H2B. He had to hire an unemployed handyman, who had never been south of Hugo, to be his Mexican cook. Same problem for many other professions- there is no worker visa that works.

The H2A for agricultural workers has so much red tape it would give any loyal Soviet Communist Central Committee member perpetual wet dreams. The employer has to provide housing, three meals a day (or kitchen access to fix the three meals), transportation to and from work site, initial expenses getting the job, etc. And the “prevailing wage” requirement as opposed to a minimum or market wage requirement is unrealistic for low cost-of-living areas that would have to pay union wages calculated based on high cost-of-living areas. The H2A is tied to one employer – not a good fit for workers who work for one farmer for three weeks harvest, then another farmer for the next three weeks, etc.

Really, a three hour show is not enough time to explain all the problems with the worker visa laws and regs as presently written.

For the last 100 years Mexicans have migrated to the U.S. seeking access to capital. They trade labor for dollars. The credit markets in Mexico did not develop for 30-year mortgages, equity loans, credit cards, Sears charge cards, etc. There are three high migration states in Mexico in which a large percentage of households have had at least one member who migrated to the U.S. This was the way they added rooms to their houses, bought pick-up trucks, bought furniture, and in general, improved their standard of living.

It evolved into the Bracero program, which began due to high labor demand in the U.S. during WWII. The Bracero program was a legal guest worker program that ran 22 years.

When it ended, the employers all said, “keep coming back each year, we can still use you – but you’ll have to sneak across the border to get here.” That was no problem, from 1964 to about 1990. Anyone who spoke a little English could talk his way across at most ports of entry. The border guard might ask, “Who was the first President of the U.S.?” If you could answer, he’d wave you across. Even those who didn’t speak English could easily sneak across without hiring a coyote. As easy as sneaking into an outdoor drive-in movie theater. Easy to go back and forth each season.

Some of you may not realize this, but before the amnesty bill Reagan signed (RICA) in 1987, it was illegal for employers to demand employees prove legal residence, for most professions.

New worker visa reform is needed for the next bull run. We need to streamline the worker visas process so that those who create wealth have easy access to labor. The de facto national ID card, the social security card, was never meant to be an ID. Perhaps a biometric social security card will solve the problem of a worker who is illegal present but is using his cousin’s SSN.

High labor demand for 400,000/year net new jobs beyond what the domestic labor force was providiing (we had full employment for nearly 20 straight years) plus tight borders led to 10.8 million illegally present with a huge dropoff in circular migration. Tight borders led to 12 month guests instead of 4-8 month guests.

[Frozen Sooner]

Why is this? There's already a system in place. You get a sponsor, fill in the paper work and get a work visa. This is a pretty standard system used by a whole lot of countries.

I spend 18 months, working in South Korea. Do you think I just hoped on a plan, got there and said hey, I want a job? I was issued my 30 day work visa, arrived there, then had to do additional paperwork for my 1 year non-resident work permit. I had to carry the permit with me 24/7 and present it at any time requested by Police, border patrol, and actually, the only time I ever got asked, it was by their coast gaurd. My friend who spent 6 years in Brazil, working, had to get a work visa. His was a lot harder to get then mine. There are lots of illegals in the states, but I've meet plenty of people over here on legal work visa. This includes engineers, cad-designers and frankly, welders.

Dude, you just don't understand Hispanics. ;)

[Leroy Lizard]

Thanks for the call, SB93. I know not all of you listeners out there can tune in for the full three hours, so let me give you, in a nutshell, what was discussed during the first two hours.

SJS, you expended a lot of words to try and convince us that you are some free-market, capitalist, wheeler-and-dealer. To that end, you are a wolf in sheep's clothing. This isn't about being pro-business. Essentially, you want hordes of people flooding into the country that will in the future provide your ideologues more political power and appease your white-guilt sentimentality.

Sorry, but that's how I see it.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

SJS, you expended a lot of words to try and convince us that you are some free-market, capitalist, wheeler-and-dealer. To that end, you are a wolf in sheep's clothing. This isn't about being pro-business. Essentially, you want hordes of people flooding into the country that will in the future provide your ideologues more political power and appease your white-guilt sentimentality.

Sorry, but that's how I see it.

You couldn't be more wrong. F*ck white guilt. Both my wife and I are in the private sector and our investments are in the equity markets. My wife is an employer.

My arguments, on almost every issue, have been consistent with Cato Institute libertarianism. Libertarians are driven by freedom. I think I've been quite transparent in that respect. Libertarianism straddles the two major parties so I don't rubber stamp either.

I support free markets & school choice, oppose welfare, which puts me more in the pub camp, while I support abortion rights, gay marriage rights, freedom from religious indoctrination in public schools, which puts me in the donks' camp. I don't like big union, liberal-wing control of the democratic party. I hate the Pat Buchanan wing on the pub party.

There used to be people called liberal republicans which is how I view libertarians. Bill Clinton was close to a liberal pub.

I'm all about individual liberty and free markets.



don't slip into ad hominems, Leroy.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

here is some Cato literature:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/handbook/hb111/hb111-60.pdf

[olevetonahill]

jaun , Im a libertarian border line anarchist , But WE have to live under the rules n place so yer argument sucks :rolleyes:

[SanJoaquinSooner]

It is within the rules to change the rules.

If one had advocated the repeal of prohibition would olevet reply, "Im a libertarian border line anarchist , But WE have to live under the rules n place so yer argument sucks" ???

[olevetonahill]

It is within the rules to change the rules.

If one had advocated the repeal of prohibition would olevet reply, "Im a libertarian border line anarchist , But WE have to live under the rules n place so yer argument sucks" ???

Yes I would you dumas.I to agree with changing the rules where needed.:rolleyes:

[Leroy Lizard]

You couldn't be more wrong. F*ck white guilt. Both my wife and I are in the private sector and our investments are in the equity markets. My wife is an employer.

My arguments, on almost every issue, have been consistent with Cato Institute libertarianism. Libertarians are driven by freedom. I think I've been quite transparent in that respect. Libertarianism straddles the two major parties so I don't rubber stamp either.

I support free markets & school choice, oppose welfare, which puts me more in the pub camp, while I support abortion rights, gay marriage rights, freedom from religious indoctrination in public schools, which puts me in the donks' camp. I don't like big union, liberal-wing control of the democratic party. I hate the Pat Buchanan wing on the pub party.

There used to be people called liberal republicans which is how I view libertarians. Bill Clinton was close to a liberal pub.

I'm all about individual liberty and free markets.



don't slip into ad hominems, Leroy.

Okay, what's your view of the following?


I'm not necessarily opposed to work permits if conditions are met to ensure that we don't increase the number of migrants becoming citizens.

1. No kids. Kids must stay in Mexico.
2. No pregnant women.

Abide by those two, and I'm willing to listen.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Okay, what's your view of the following?
Quote:
I'm not necessarily opposed to work permits if conditions are met to ensure that we don't increase the number of migrants becoming citizens.

1. No kids. Kids must stay in Mexico.
2. No pregnant women.

Abide by those two, and I'm willing to listen.


I just dont see "no pregnant women" as politically feasible, from either side of the aisle - albeit for different reasons.

Think about our tax code. If I make $100,000 and have two kids, I pay less tax than someone who makes $100,000 but no kids. From your viewpoint, I should be paying more, not less taxes, right? But it is not politically feasible to try to change that.

I see it differently. I think we should let Darwin work for us: let those who prove themselves worthy with, say, 6 years of steady guest work with no record of crimes nor welfare, become eligible for a permanent residency visa. It ordinarily takes 5 years beyond that to become eligible for citizenship (again with no felonies nor welfare). That's the kind of people, I believe, we want.

If they all become Democrats, it will be only because Republicans were stupid. Pubs have a natural ally in Latinos on school choice/vouchers. Many Latino families would love for a voucher to attend Catholic schools over the public schools.

Many latinos would support a tax code that further strengthens the role of charity in helping the less fortunate.

Many Latinos respond to incentives to join the U.S. military.

And of course Latinos are very supportive in limiting late term abortions - natural allies with pubs.

Leroy, the great thing about the U.S. is the concept of upward mobility. The kids of legal migrant workers very often move into the middle class. I've been around kids from migrant families and they're like most other kids. They speak English to each other, want to see Toy Story 3, want ipods and iphones, and want to grow up to be something cool. Education of kids is not welfare, but an investment in future laborers and citizens.

[Leroy Lizard]

I just dont see "no pregnant women" as politically feasible, from either side of the aisle - albeit for different reasons.

Think about our tax code. If I make $100,000 and have two kids, I pay less tax than someone who makes $100,000 but no kids. From your viewpoint, I should be paying more, not less taxes, right? But it is not politically feasible to try to change that.

I see it differently. I think we should let Darwin work for us: let those who prove themselves worthy with, say, 6 years of steady guest work with no record of crimes nor welfare, become eligible for a permanent residency visa. It ordinarily takes 5 years beyond that to become eligible for citizenship (again with no felonies nor welfare). That's the kind of people, I believe, we want.

If they all become Democrats, it will be only because Republicans were stupid. Pubs have a natural ally in Latinos on school choice/vouchers. Many Latino families would love for a voucher to attend Catholic schools over the public schools.

Many latinos would support a tax code that further strengthens the role of charity in helping the less fortunate.

Many Latinos respond to incentives to join the U.S. military.

And of course Latinos are very supportive in limiting late term abortions - natural allies with pubs.

Leroy, the great thing about the U.S. is the concept of upward mobility. The kids of legal migrant workers very often move into the middle class. I've been around kids from migrant families and they're like most other kids. They speak English to each other, want to see Toy Story 3, want ipods and iphones, and want to grow up to be something cool. Education of kids is not welfare, but an investment in future laborers and citizens.

So let me summarize:

You completely dodged the question about kids. (Future Democratic voters, there.)

You said that keeping pregnant women out is not feasible (and offered a convoluted argument centered on taxes to justify it). Pregnant women have kids who become automatic U.S. citizens. And U.S. citizens can vote once they turn voting age.

And it turns out that you have all intentions of allowing those who enter the U.S. to become citizens.

I was especially amused by the hilarious attempt to paint this is as a pro-Republican effort. (They're not going to vote Republican, dude. Even Bush Jr, who opposed abortion, supported vouchers, and reached out to Hispanics, only garnered 35% their vote.)

So when these workers bring in their kids by the tens of thousands, who is going to pay for these kids' education, Mr. Free Market? Who is going to pay their medical bills?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

So let me summarize:

You completely dodged the question about kids. (Future Democratic voters, there.)

You said that keeping pregnant women out is not feasible (and offered a convoluted argument centered on taxes to justify it). Pregnant women have kids who become automatic U.S. citizens. And U.S. citizens can vote once they turn voting age.

And it turns out that you have all intentions of allowing those who enter the U.S. to become citizens.

I was especially amused by the hilarious attempt to paint this is as a pro-Republican effort. (They're not going to vote Republican, dude. Even Bush Jr, who opposed abortion, supported vouchers, and reached out to Hispanics, only garnered 35% their vote.)

So when these workers bring in their kids by the tens of thousands, who is going to pay for these kids' education, Mr. Free Market? Who is going to pay their medical bills?He's a jewel, ain't he?

[MamaMia]

He's a jewel, ain't he?

Check your pm inbox.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

So let me summarize:

You completely dodged the question about kids.

Jesus H Christ, it was late and I was sleepy. For guest workers, fine, don't allow them to bring the kids. Do you advocate that for H1B visas as well?


Future Democratic voters, there.

Well, Leroy if this is just a numbers game then the Republicans may be $hit-out-of-luck. You pubs just aren't very good at the procreation thing. And when 16 year-old daughters of Republicans get knocked up, they more likely to get abortions than poor democrats. Bristol Palin is an exception to the rule.

Bush got 35% of Hispanic vote in 2000 and around 40% in 2004. This is actually a great sign for the pubs, given that latinos are disproportionately working class - a class that is traditionally democrat. As they move into the middle and professional class, they're like other ethnic groups - becoming more fiscally conservative.

Latinos are also a huge pool of prospective small business owners. A focus on deregulation should be appealing.

But it's more than being "right" on certain issues. You gotta know the audience. If you have guys like Rush Limbaugh as the face of the party, it doesn't matter if you're right on the issues or not.

Knowing the Latino audience means understanding the family is the alpha and the omega of all issues for them.

I know you brought up more issues, and I'm not dodging - I just gotta drive my son over to Stanford for a summer filmmaking class.

[Leroy Lizard]

Jesus H Christ, it was late and I was sleepy. For guest workers, fine, don't allow them to bring the kids. Do you advocate that for H1B visas as well?

I'm not sure what an H1B visa entails. Are the recipients of H1B visas professionals?


Well, Leroy if this is just a numbers game then the Republicans may be $hit-out-of-luck. You pubs just aren't very good at the procreation thing. And when 16 year-old daughters of Republicans get knocked up, they more likely to get abortions than poor democrats. Bristol Palin is an exception to the rule.

Bush got 35% of Hispanic vote in 2000 and around 40% in 2004. This is actually a great sign for the pubs, given that latinos are disproportionately working class - a class that is traditionally democrat. As they move into the middle and professional class, they're like other ethnic groups - becoming more fiscally conservative.

#^&#&%&@!!!! You bring in 100,000 and 20,000 become middle-class. Wow, the Republicans made out like bandits, right? What about the other 80,000? Who are they voting for?


Latinos are also a huge pool of prospective small business owners. A focus on deregulation should be appealing.

What good does it do if we maintain a flow of low-skilled, uneducated labor?

Every group is a potential pool of small business owners. That's like saying we should consider importing large numbers of communists into the country, because they COULD become small business owners.

It doesn't do any good even if 25% of them become small business owners. Seventy-five percent didn't. And guess for which party they're going to be voting.

You claim to be a Libertarian. Mexican migrants are NOT Libertarian. You clan claim all you want that they should be, or could be. Talk all you want about vouchers and what have you. They're not. And it would be grandly stupid to promote their entry into the U.S. because they MIGHT become Libertarian. The same applies to the Republican party.

This is why I called you a wolf in sheep's clothing. You claim to be a Libertarian, but you advocate bringing in tens of thousands of people who are going to be relying overwhelmingly on Big Government services and, once they become citizens, voting for politicians who promise more Big Government services. What the **** kind of strategy is that?!?!


But it's more than being "right" on certain issues. You gotta know the audience. If you have guys like Rush Limbaugh as the face of the party, it doesn't matter if you're right on the issues or not.

Okay, so we should advocate mass naturalization of a group of people who don't vote for us. Then, to get them to vote for us we need to change our philosophies. (Of course, they still won't vote for us.)

They call that: Creating a problem and then trying to solve it. I pity the Republican (and Libertarian) who falls for this ****.

[Chuck Bao]

The H2A for agricultural workers has so much red tape it would give any loyal Soviet Communist Central Committee member perpetual wet dreams. The employer has to provide housing, three meals a day (or kitchen access to fix the three meals), transportation to and from work site, initial expenses getting the job, etc.

Well yeah and life is pretty cruel and mean and just not nice. I've been repeatedly told by the know-it-alls in Bangkok that I could import Nope on that agri visa because I have a farm in the US and workers are in short supply. And, the slim chances of getting an agri work visa are still much higher than getting a temporary tourist visa, even if it were only for a very short visit to see if he could be acclimatized.

Thanks for posting that info SanJoaquinSooner Okay, housing (check). 3 meals a day (check). Transportation (check). Living together (uncheck the previous 3 checks). Immigration can be pretty mean and nearly as mean as an IRS audit (and I know how some of you feel about getting your heart ripped out by the IRS).

[delhalew]

I just dont see "no pregnant women" as politically feasible, from either side of the aisle - albeit for different reasons.

Think about our tax code. If I make $100,000 and have two kids, I pay less tax than someone who makes $100,000 but no kids. From your viewpoint, I should be paying more, not less taxes, right? But it is not politically feasible to try to change that.

I see it differently. I think we should let Darwin work for us: let those who prove themselves worthy with, say, 6 years of steady guest work with no record of crimes nor welfare, become eligible for a permanent residency visa. It ordinarily takes 5 years beyond that to become eligible for citizenship (again with no felonies nor welfare). That's the kind of people, I believe, we want.

If they all become Democrats, it will be only because Republicans were stupid. Pubs have a natural ally in Latinos on school choice/vouchers. Many Latino families would love for a voucher to attend Catholic schools over the public schools.

Many latinos would support a tax code that further strengthens the role of charity in helping the less fortunate.

Many Latinos respond to incentives to join the U.S. military.

And of course Latinos are very supportive in limiting late term abortions - natural allies with pubs.

Leroy, the great thing about the U.S. is the concept of upward mobility. The kids of legal migrant workers very often move into the middle class. I've been around kids from migrant families and they're like most other kids. They speak English to each other, want to see Toy Story 3, want ipods and iphones, and want to grow up to be something cool. Education of kids is not welfare, but an investment in future laborers and citizens.
When you use logic to lay out a good point like that, rather than tossing what feels like a liberal propaganda grenade, you get a post with which I can 99% concur. Stop that. I feel dirty.

[StoopTroup]

I think it's funny that so many folks hate Unions yet as soon as they get laid off by their Company so their Company won't have to pay into their retirement they scream like bitches.

The days of employers doing what they promised an employee so they can bank record profits and cash huge bonus checks are over. I'd like to think that loyalty was something employers relished but they mostly use empty promises to get folks hooked and comfortable and once they know the employee is scared to use the free market and just find an employer that deserves them...the
System uses their age as an excuse to hire someone younger that will put up with a lower salary and unpaid hours and benefits.

When you are young and hungry you'll put up with quite a bit of abuse but when you are older these days...you could be over qualified and not even be able to get a job as a Walmart greeter because of an employer discriminating against you for a multitude of reasons.

I'm really surprised that new Unions that.will represent people haven't popped up and tried to take the easy money that many of the older Unions seem to think they are just entitled too.

[Leroy Lizard]

I think it's funny that so many folks hate Unions yet as soon as they get laid off by their Company so their Company won't have to pay into their retirement they scream like bitches.

The days of employers doing what they promised an employee so they can bank record profits and cash huge bonus checks are over. I'd like to think that loyalty was something employers relished but they mostly use empty promises to get folks hooked and comfortable and once they know the employee is scared to use the free market and just find an employer that deserves them...the
System uses their age as an excuse to hire someone younger that will put up with a lower salary and unpaid hours and benefits.

When you are young and hungry you'll put up with quite a bit of abuse but when you are older these days...you could be over qualified and not even be able to get a job as a Walmart greeter because of an employer discriminating against you for a multitude of reasons.

I'm really surprised that new Unions that.will represent people haven't popped up and tried to take the easy money that many of the older Unions seem to think they are just entitled too.

So has the argument officially shifted to union talk?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Leroy wrote:
You claim to be a Libertarian. Mexican migrants are NOT Libertarian. You clan claim all you want that they should be, or could be. Talk all you want about vouchers and what have you. They're not. And it would be grandly stupid to promote their entry into the U.S. because they MIGHT become Libertarian. The same applies to the Republican party.

This is why I called you a wolf in sheep's clothing. You claim to be a Libertarian, but you advocate bringing in tens of thousands of people who are going to be relying overwhelmingly on Big Government services and, once they become citizens, voting for politicians who promise more Big Government services. What the **** kind of strategy is that?!?!

I'm not trying to recruit libertarians. I'm arguing that when we have another period of economic growth that requires additional labor, it makes more sense to use legal guest worker labor, rather than the black market of labor we've used for last few decades. Republicans hire Latinos all the time. Central valley farmers are by-and-large Republicans and their labor force is predominantly Latino.

My arguments are standard CATO institute arguments. And CATO despises Obama and the liberal democrats. they aren't wolves in sheeps' clothing. They hate his health care bill and his stimulus spending. You don't see me on Obama threads defending him. I didn't vote for him.

I thought the best governing combo was Bill Clinton with a pub congress.

But really, go check out CATO's position papers on immigration/free trade. I lift a lot from there.


But, as I was saying, if this immigration issue is just a political party numbers game for you, then I say: be my guest to take a fleet of boats to Cuba and load up on potential pubs. Hire them to grade your papers. But if you think the only way to grow the republican party is by recruiting more middle aged Type II diabetes white guys, then good luck with that.

The Donks can't win with just blacks and single women. They also need the latino vote, which is ripe for plucking if the pubs were savvy.

What are your other options? Maybe Leroy and the little lady can have a few more kids and raise them to be good pubs. Or maybe Ann Coulter can become a major sperm donor.

[Leroy Lizard]

I'm not trying to recruit libertarians. I'm arguing that when we have another period of economic growth that requires additional labor, it makes more sense to use legal guest worker labor, rather than the black market of labor we've used for last few decades. Republicans hire Latinos all the time. Central valley farmers are by-and-large Republicans and their labor force is predominantly Latino.

My arguments are standard CATO institute arguments. And CATO despises Obama and the liberal democrats. they aren't wolves in sheeps' clothing. They hate his health care bill and his stimulus spending. You don't see me on Obama threads defending him. I didn't vote for him.

I thought the best governing combo was Bill Clinton with a pub congress.

But really, go check out CATO's position papers on immigration/free trade. I lift a lot from there.

How do we lose our economic freedoms, SJS? Seriously, how?

I'll tell you: By providing social programs that allow significant portions of the population to become dependent on Big Government social programs.

If the Cato Institute cannot see the relationship between increased naturalization of impoverished, unskilled people and increased Big Government social spending, then its members are total morons.


But, as I was saying, if this immigration issue is just a political party numbers game for you, then I say: be my guest to take a fleet of boats to Cuba and load up on potential pubs.

Before I do that, I have to somehow hoodwink the opposition into thinking these guys will vote for them. That seems to be the standard practice around here.