GM stakes future viability on this...

[Okla-homey]

the Chevrolet "Cruze."

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab7/Okla-homey/chevrolet-cruze-paris-241.jpg

It begins mass production this week.

:pop:

[Lott's Bandana]

Snuze

[ouleaf]

Looks like a smaller Nissan Altima.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Government Motors has all the viability it needs as long as it can keep sucking on the gov't tit.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Not crazy about the grill and think it takes away from the front end styling. Anyway, looks like a Fusion fighter. Still...

Ford > GM

[NormanPride]

Will it last more than 100k miles?

[delhalew]

Another tiny turd mobile. Woohoo. I thought they had everything riding on the Volt.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Another tiny turd mobile. Woohoo. I thought they had everything riding on the Camaro.

Fixed.

[delhalew]

Fixed.

As much as car lovers love sports cars, companys don't make their money on sport coupes, SUVs, or the like. The make most of their revenue off of pick-ups and **** boxes.

[StoopTroup]

Dear Automakers....

The Corporation that can manufacture a cheap ($18,000.00 - 25,0000.00) reliable vehicle that is around 4500 lbs....has light to medium 4x4 capability and can tow a light trailer or boat and seat 6 to 9 people or 4-5 and has a pickup bed and gets 32 MPG and decent acceleration....

Wins.

Sincerely....

The American Public.


Dear Loan Officers....

Time to send out another plea to the Automakers.

Sincerely,

The Americans who are cannibalizing every vehicle made in the last 20 years.

[OUMallen]

Awful name.

[OklahomaTuba]

Dear Automakers....

The Corporation that can manufacture a cheap ($18,000.00 - 25,0000.00) reliable vehicle that is around 4500 lbs....has light to medium 4x4 capability and can tow a light trailer or boat and seat 6 to 9 people or 4-5 and has a pickup bed and gets 32 MPG and decent acceleration....

Wins.

Sincerely....

The American Public.

32 MPG?? HAHAHA!

Owebomba made those illegal starting in 2016!!! (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/05/19/obama-cafe-increase-an-historic-agreement-to-help-america-brea/)

Any new car coming out of mexico (or whatever non-US plant Government Motors plans on building our cars in the future) will probably look something like this thanks to him and the enviro/marxist wackos.

http://images.loqu.com/contents/255/398/image/2009-03-11/7.JPG

[StoopTroup]

32 MPG?? HAHAHA!

Owebomba made those illegal starting in 2016!!! (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/05/19/obama-cafe-increase-an-historic-agreement-to-help-america-brea/)

Any new car coming out of mexico (or wherever non-US plant Government Motors plans on building our cars in the future) will probably look something like this thanks to him and the enviro/marxist wackos.

http://images.loqu.com/contents/255/398/image/2009-03-11/7.JPG

Well....then I guess he better start listening to us too then huh?

[Okla-homey]

They're starting production at their Youngstown, OH plant, which NPR noted (shockingly perhaps, being NPR and all); that facility has never been a model of efficiency, even among UAW plants.

[OklahomaTuba]

Wonder if GM would be building cars in a historically inefficient UAW plant if GM wasn't government owned, funded and operated at this point?

I think we all know the answer to that question.

[GottaHavePride]

First: I HATE companies misspelling words to try to make them look "cool". There's a word spelled "cruise" - use it.

Second: Why is it that European companies can make decent, small cars that get good gas mileage and cost around $12,000 but American companies can't?

[NormanPride]

Because Americans won't tolerate them? I can't fit in those things, for one thing...

[Bourbon St Sooner]

They're starting production at their Youngstown, OH plant, which NPR noted (shockingly perhaps, being NPR and all); that facility has never been a model of efficiency, even among UAW plants.

Well if Bob Stoops had gone into automobile making instead of coaching football, they'd be top of the line. Except in January of course.

Kidding, Kidding.

[OklahomaTuba]

Second: Why is it that European companies can make decent, small cars that get good gas mileage and cost around $12,000 but American companies can't?

Government.

Diesel and safety standards are mostly to blame.

[Curly Bill]

I wouldn't buy one.

[C&CDean]

Eurotrashmobiles cost $12K cause they suck.

[OklahomaTuba]

Because Americans won't tolerate them? I can't fit in those things, for one thing...I'm a big guy, and had no problem while working in Europe or Asia with the size of their cars. Infact I found most of the german and british care to be superior to most American cars. Not trucks or SUVs however, which is what most Euros I know would have if they could have/afford them.

The fact is that American cars have many safety & fuel standards that foreign cars just aren't designed to include. So much different that many European car makers just don't sell over here.

But now that Obama basically handed Chrysler over to Fiat, we should be seeing some Fiat's on the road here (built in Mexico of course, not America) and for a small sub compact, you can't beat a 500. It was fun, fun, fun to drive for a small car.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/07/fiat-500-hits-a-few-chrysler-showrooms-soon/1

[MR2-Sooner86]

As much as car lovers love sports cars, companys don't make their money on sport coupes, SUVs, or the like. The make most of their revenue off of pick-ups and **** boxes.

Not so true. Around 2006 the Mustang was keeping Ford afloat and was their only car making any money.


Second: Why is it that European companies can make decent, small cars that get good gas mileage and cost around $12,000 but American companies can't?

Can you find me a European company with $12,000 cars with good gas milage? Answer, no you can't. Cars in that price range are stripped down Japanese models with little to no options or features.

With that said, Ford currently beats all European companies in reliability.

[delhalew]

Historically, Mustangs serve the purpose of filling a niche and selling the Taurus.
Think about it. Guy goes to the dealership to admire the Mustang, then rememers he has a couple brats and drives away in a Taurus with his broken soul stuffed in the glove box next to his manhood.

[Curly Bill]

I really want one of the new Mustangs with the 5.0

It's an expensive toy, but I'm very tempted.

[OklahomaTuba]

Speaking of Ford, for the best review of a Ford Fiesta ever watch this Top Gear segment:

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zy78tFPQwQ
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYIyCmcuQno&feature=related

Personally, I think every car should be tested in an amphibious assault with marines.

[GottaHavePride]

Can you find me a European company with $12,000 cars with good gas milage? Answer, no you can't. Cars in that price range are stripped down Japanese models with little to no options or features.

With that said, Ford currently beats all European companies in reliability.


Um, Fiat? The previously-mentioned Fiat 500 is considered a great car for its class and does up to 70 mpg on the highway, depending on the engine. I think in England they run about 9,000 pounds for a base model.

[yermom]

they love the Fords over there...

i think a lot of the difference in safety standards are due to the interstates

the little ****boxes driving around the UK would be fine around town, but i wouldn't want to be sharing the turnpike with semis in one

[GottaHavePride]

I know a guy from Slovakia and he says the only US-made car that's easily available over there is the Chrysler 300. Heh.

[OklahomaTuba]

They way I understand it is the standards are really more about keeping the foreign car makers out of here than safety, thanks to the UAW & big three's lobbying efforts in Congress over the years.

Not that its not a bad thing, but it does increase the MPG & cost, while bringing foreign owned car manufacturers to places like Alabama and TN.

[GottaHavePride]

See, the funny thing is that just the shipping costs alone of getting foreign-made cars to the US should price those cars right out of their class. I mean, a comparable US-made car should* cost several thousand dollars less than a foreign-made car just due to transport costs.

And I don't buy that they use labor that's THAT much cheaper. The major European manufacturers are in modern, industrialized countries that probably have to pay their workers similarly to ours. Except for Italy. ;)



* should meaning if the US-made cars weren't either unreliable pieces of crap, built poorly to begin with, or made by companies with ridiculously overpaid, inefficient management. And unions.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Um, Fiat? The previously-mentioned Fiat 500 is considered a great car for its class and does up to 70 mpg on the highway, depending on the engine. I think in England they run about 9,000 pounds for a base model.

Safety and emissions standards are a pain in the ***. For instance I was talking to a Ford salesman and he was telling me of a extended cab Ranger they sell in Brazil that has a three cylinder diesel with great gas milage. The reason they don't sell it here? The emissions don't cut it.

One of the best all around performance cars, Nissan Skyline, didn't come to America due to some bull**** safety regulations. However a private company bought some Skylines from Japan and did their own crash test ratings and they passed. So '94 and '95 Skylines, I think, are perfectly alright but this was years after they were made so it was far too late bring them over in mass when they were in production.

[yermom]

motorex cars were still crazy expensive though

[Leroy Lizard]

See, the funny thing is that just the shipping costs alone of getting foreign-made cars to the US should price those cars right out of their class. I mean, a comparable US-made car should* cost several thousand dollars less than a foreign-made car just due to transport costs.

And I don't buy that they use labor that's THAT much cheaper. The major European manufacturers are in modern, industrialized countries that probably have to pay their workers similarly to ours. Except for Italy. ;)

Their unions are as bad as ours?

[delhalew]

Keep in mind MSRP on any vehicle is *** rapage.
I bought a Silverado pre-gub'ment motors. I fought with the salesguy in person and over the phone for two weeks before I got the price I wanted and a free spray on bed liner and rally bars.
By the time we were done that dude needed therapy. I told him to be glad it wasn't my father he was dealing with.

[StoopTroup]

Their unions are as bad as ours?

Checkout what Airline Maintenance folks get in Europe and the amount they have to work.

Calling a US worker lazy and overpaid after educating yourself a bit with the strictness of Air Travel in the EU and you'll probably STFU about Airline Workers and their Unions here.

[delhalew]

As bad as SOME of our unions are over here, ST is right. Look into the stangle hold European unions have on ALL industries. Of course, it is important to note that the european labor model is what Obama and Co are shooting for. They are alarmingly close to linking it all together and flushing a couple centuries of American economic independence.

[OklahomaTuba]

And we wonder why Europe is on the brink of an economic collapse.

[C&CDean]

I don't have a clue what they make in Europe or if there's unions. Alls I know is this:

I purchased a John Deere 7230 from the dealership in Norman. They make one model - the 7230 Premium Cab in Iowa, and the other model - the 7230 Standard Cab in Germany. I wanted the Standard Cab since all the hydraulic controls, 3-point, climate control, etc. are manual.

Anyhow, my wife's uncle had recently retired from John Deere after 40-years with the company. He happened to be one of the guys who set up the plant in Germany, the one in Iowa, and another plant in Brazil. When I was tractor shopping I talked to him.

Here's what he told me - "whatever you do, don't buy the Premium Cab. It's built in Iowa. Buy the Standard Cab. It's built in Germany." I go "I used to work on German cars, and they're POS." He goes "every component on these tractors is the same, other than the controls. The transmission, axles, engines, everything is shipped over to Germany for assembly, then shipped back here assembled." I go "so why buy the German one?" He goes "because I worked in that plant in Iowa for years. It's nothing but a bunch of union jackoffs who couldn't give a **** less what their product comes off the line like. The plant in Germany? You could eat off the floor. Serious quality control, pride in workmanship, and you'll be much happier with the tractor."

I bought the German built one. I'm very pleased with it.

[delhalew]

I don't have a clue what they make in Europe or if there's unions. Alls I know is this:

I purchased a John Deere 7230 from the dealership in Norman. They make one model - the 7230 Premium Cab in Iowa, and the other model - the 7230 Standard Cab in Germany. I wanted the Standard Cab since all the hydraulic controls, 3-point, climate control, etc. are manual.

Anyhow, my wife's uncle had recently retired from John Deere after 40-years with the company. He happened to be one of the guys who set up the plant in Germany, the one in Iowa, and another plant in Brazil. When I was tractor shopping I talked to him.

Here's what he told me - "whatever you do, don't buy the Premium Cab. It's built in Iowa. Buy the Standard Cab. It's built in Germany." I go "I used to work on German cars, and they're POS." He goes "every component on these tractors is the same, other than the controls. The transmission, axles, engines, everything is shipped over to Germany for assembly, then shipped back here assembled." I go "so why buy the German one?" He goes "because I worked in that plant in Iowa for years. It's nothing but a bunch of union jackoffs who couldn't give a **** less what their product comes off the line like. The plant in Germany? You could eat off the floor. Serious quality control, pride in workmanship, and you'll be much happier with the tractor."

I bought the German built one. I'm very pleased with it.

Interesting. My knowledge extends to France, Italy, Spain, and Greece. Also, Israel oddly enough has one mega union that routinely shuts down the country if their unrealistic demands for hours of work, compensation, vacation, ect aren't met.

[GottaHavePride]

Yeah, we have unions but Europe comes from the trade guild system...

[My Opinion Matters]

Smaller, economical cars with good gas mileage are the wave of the future. Get used to it.

[Leroy Lizard]

Checkout what Airline Maintenance folks get in Europe and the amount they have to work.

Calling a US worker lazy and overpaid after educating yourself a bit with the strictness of Air Travel in the EU and you'll probably STFU about Airline Workers and their Unions here.

I didn't know airlines were in the automotive manufacturing business.

[Leroy Lizard]

Here's what he told me - "whatever you do, don't buy the Premium Cab. It's built in Iowa. Buy the Standard Cab. It's built in Germany." I go "I used to work on German cars, and they're POS." He goes "every component on these tractors is the same, other than the controls. The transmission, axles, engines, everything is shipped over to Germany for assembly, then shipped back here assembled." I go "so why buy the German one?" He goes "because I worked in that plant in Iowa for years. It's nothing but a bunch of union jackoffs who couldn't give a **** less what their product comes off the line like. The plant in Germany? You could eat off the floor. Serious quality control, pride in workmanship, and you'll be much happier with the tractor."

I bought the German built one. I'm very pleased with it.

Watch it, Dean. Pretty soon you will be visited by the union's ombudsman service.

http://api.ning.com/files/3QWN5yhdbac--z1CpaDLDpZh9SKEo6AVyD7zO7J38ndQ1lSm9sbKZWfkGR8LhO6 guxPvsVN5PyA5btw1GLA9TzsdZm-w8KYc/sopranos.jpg

[Bourbon St Sooner]

I know a guy from Slovakia and he says the only US-made car that's easily available over there is the Chrysler 300. Heh.


I was in Poland 2 years ago and they have a ton of Fords over there. That was the only American cars I recall seeing there.

[GottaHavePride]

Ford has a European division that makes different models for sale over there. The Ford Mondeo is supposed to be a very good car for the price. Over here they call it the Contour and it's a POS.

[royalfan5]

Ford has a European division that makes different models for sale over there. The Ford Mondeo is supposed to be a very good car for the price. Over here they call it the Contour and it's a POS.

The Current Mondeo has no relation to the Contour. They did a ground up redesign from that Mondeo to the current one. The Current one shares a platform with the Volvo S-80.

[OklahomaTuba]

Yeah, we have unions but Europe comes from the trade guild system...One major difference I've noticed when working with the Germans making pumps and such for my company: Those who are in a trade union or what ever they call it, they really care about their work and produce a lot less scrap than their American counterparts do.

It really is no joke that those guys in Germany do take their work seriously, and it shows in the end product. I mean these are just oilfield pumps, and the welds these guy make are works of art.

But one thing I know in the energy/process industry, unless it's American engineered, its crap.

[Crucifax Autumn]

That car makes SicEm's scooter look manly.

[delhalew]

Smaller, economical cars with good gas mileage are the wave of the future. Get used to it.

Make me.
I'm going to buy a '63 Lincoln Continental with a 440 and singlehandedly kill us all.

[royalfan5]

Make me.
I'm going to buy a '63 Lincoln Continental with a 440 and singlehandedly kill us all.

Know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna get myself a 1967 Cadillac El Dorado,
hot-****in'-pink, with whaleskin hubcaps and all-leather cow interior and big
brown baby seal eyes for headlights... yeah! And I'm gonna drive around in
that baby doing 115 miles an hour, getting 1 mile per gallon, suckin' down
quarter pound cheeseburgers from McDonald's in the old-fashioned non-
biodegradable styrofoam containers... yeah!

[MR2-Sooner86]

I see your big block muscle cars and raise you by filling it up with leaded fuel.

[delhalew]

Know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna get myself a 1967 Cadillac El Dorado,
hot-****in'-pink, with whaleskin hubcaps and all-leather cow interior and big
brown baby seal eyes for headlights... yeah! And I'm gonna drive around in
that baby doing 115 miles an hour, getting 1 mile per gallon, suckin' down
quarter pound cheeseburgers from McDonald's in the old-fashioned non-
biodegradable styrofoam containers... yeah!

Nice to hear from Mr. Leary:D

[texaspokieokie]

lincoln's didn't have 440s.

[Ike]

With that said, Ford currently beats all European companies in reliability.

I can't speak to whether or not the above statement is true or not, but if it is true, european cars must be pieces of crap. I thought I'd give ford another try on my last vehicular purchase since they didn't take any bailout money. The vehicle I've ended up with has spent more time in the shop than on the road.


A long time ago, my folks swore off fords because of reliability issues. At that point that had owned 3 of them previously, and with all of them, there was a certain amount of prayer involved every time it was taken on the road. They used to tell me as a kid that Ford stood for "Fix Or Repair Daily" (among other things). My experiences are that this is still the case.

I'd really love it if that weren't the case. If the reliability weren't an issue, I'd really like my current Ford. There are a lot of things to like about it. I have heard that they have gotten better about reliability than in the past. But I appear to have gotten a "Made on Monday" car. Still, that's enough to keep me away from Fords for a while now.

As it stands, I'd much rather drive the Subaru. THAT car has been nothing but awesome from day one. And when it comes time to buy another car....I may well be buying another Subie.

[sooner_born_1960]

430, 440. Whatever it takes.

[delhalew]

lincoln's didn't have 440s.

Then why don't you finish the job and tell me what engine they DO have.
I'm not joking. I've shopped them. My memory says 440.

[delhalew]

I see your big block muscle cars and raise you by filling it up with leaded fuel.
:D. I'll see your regular fuel, and raise you a blender attachment into which is fed small woodland creatures and the tears of small children.

[yermom]

Then why don't you finish the job and tell me what engine they DO have.
I'm not joking. I've shopped them. My memory says 440.

440s were a Mopar thing

looks like in '63 they were 430s

[MR2-Sooner86]

:D. I'll see your regular fuel, and raise you a blender attachment into which is fed small woodland creatures and the tears of small children.

I'll see your blender attachment and raise you bald eager feathers on a rear view mirror ornament, baby seal skin seat covers, ivory interior, and a baby skull shift knob.

[delhalew]

440s were a Mopar thing

looks like in '63 they were 430s

I swear I saw one with a 450, which I didn't even know was done. It is one big assed vehicle.

[OUthunder]

It's still a GM.

[Leroy Lizard]

I swear I saw one with a 450, which I didn't even know was done. It is one big assed vehicle.

I have never heard of a 450. Was this a common engine?

[C&CDean]

Never heard of a 450. I had a 472 in a 1972 (or was it 68?, **** I can't remember) Cadillac. Smoothest ride I ever owned.

I had a 496 in a 2000 (or was it 2002, **** I can't remember) Chevrolet 3/4 ton pick up. Ran good, but got ~5 mpg pulling a trailer. I say a 496, I never could convert liters to CI - except the 5-liter Ford 302. It was 8.1 liters.

[Lott's Bandana]

I had a 455 Rocket V8 in my 1975 Hearst Olds.

It was always go-time.

[Leroy Lizard]

I had a 455 Rocket V8 in my 1975 Hearst Olds.

It was always go-time.

Hurst/Olds

I had the 442 with the 400 in it. It would have smoked your smog machine.

[delhalew]

I really wish I was near an actual computer. I cant rememberif it was 455 or even larger. Regardless, I am in love with the suicide Continental.

[Jello Biafra]

Hurst/Olds

I had the 442 with the 400 in it. I would have smoked your baby machine.



so NOW it comes out.

[Jello Biafra]

Never heard of a 450. I had a 472 in a 1972 (or was it 68?, **** I can't remember) Cadillac. Smoothest ride I ever owned.

I had a 496 in a 2000 (or was it 2002, **** I can't remember) Chevrolet 3/4 ton pick up. Ran good, but got ~5 mpg pulling a trailer. I say a 496, I never could convert liters to CI - except the 5-liter Ford 302. It was 8.1 liters.

had a buddy in highschool that had a 4 door 1979 caddy...had a 501 in it. looked like a small wood burning stove under the hood lol.

[texaspokieokie]

i've had several fords, & have found them to be very reliable.

i wouldn't try to sell any of you guys a car, those who object to appearance of grill & object to the name of the car.

[Leroy Lizard]

I really wish I was near an actual computer. I cant rememberif it was 455 or even larger. Regardless, I am in love with the suicide Continental.

The 455 is an Oldsmobile engine. (I think Buick had one as well.)

[Leroy Lizard]

had a buddy in highschool that had a 4 door 1979 caddy...had a 501 in it. looked like a small wood burning stove under the hood lol.

A 501 in 1979? (Another engine that I don't think exists.)

[Jello Biafra]

A 501 in 1979? (Another engine that I don't think exists.)

ok so it was a 500 of course it doesnt exist now.

[Lott's Bandana]

Hurst/Olds

I had the 442 with the 400 in it. It would have smoked your smog machine.

Forgot how to spell it.

Hmmmm. Never happened. And I guess it never will.

[texaspokieokie]

buick,olds & pontiac all had 455s & chevy had 454.

multiply litres X 61 to get cubic inches.

i think the biggest lincoln was 460.

cadillac had 472 in 69, & also 500,maybe in 1970. the 1970 had 400 hp,
but everything went downhill from there due to unleaded gas & lower compression ratios.

it got so bad that the later 500 ci engines had only about 195 hp.that's really
pitiful.

us cars were trying to improve mileage (only it got lots worse) & emissions @ the same time. it started getting a little better in the 80s & 90s,& is much better now. it's the computers. with them they have been able to get back to higher compression ratios without leaded gas.

Cad CTS has a sophisticated V-6 (exactly same as Camaro V-6) with
dual overhead cams (2 on each bank), variable timing & 4 valves/cylinder.
(of course Cad also has the northstar V-8) but sadly the V-6 is engine of the future. it does ,however,probably have a bright future.

Chizler had the 440s.

[yermom]

i'm pretty impressed with the 30ish MPG of the 300HP V6 motors now

my turbo 4 makes that much power, but barely hits 26 under the best circumstances

[texaspokieokie]

forgot to mention,GM has probably the best push rod engines in the world.

JMHO

[Crucifax Autumn]

And yet I have the bast push rod.

[texaspokieokie]

the push rod that mostly only gets pulled.

[C&CDean]

If by "pulled" you mean "tweezed" then yeah.

[Jello Biafra]

Forgot how to spell it.

Hmmmm. Never happened. And I guess it never will.

no you spelled "it" right



your welcome.

[texaspokieokie]

saw an article that notes that the BMW plant in so carolina is starting a new line. they will be needing 200 to 300 new workers & are offering of $12.50 per hr.

i bet that'll bring out all the top craftsmen who will strive to keep up to the Kraut standard,at all costs.

[Lott's Bandana]

no you spelled "it" right



your welcome.


<rimshot>


:)