Illegal Immigration Costs Taxpayers $113 Billion a Year

[Harry Beanbag]

(Washington, D.C July 6, 2010) A new study released today by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) estimates that illegal immigration now costs federal and local taxpayers $113 billion a year. The report, The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on U.S. Taxpayers (http://www.fairus.org/site/News2/708226221?page=NewsArticle&id=23190&security=1601&news_iv_ctrl=1761), is the most comprehensive analysis of how much the estimated 13 million illegal aliens and their U.S.-born children cost federal, state and local governments.

The cost estimates are based on an extensive analysis of federal, state and local spending data. The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on U.S. Taxpayers examines dozens of government programs that are available to illegal aliens and their U.S.-born children, both legally and fraudulently. The report provides detailed analysis of the impact of illegal immigration on education, health care, law enforcement and justice, public assistance, and other government programs.

The report also accounts for taxes paid by illegal aliens about $13 billion a year, resulting in a net cost to taxpayers of about $100 billion. However, the study notes that government at all levels would likely have realized significantly greater revenues if jobs held by illegal aliens had been filled by legal U.S. residents instead.

Federal spending on illegal aliens amounts to $29 billion, finds Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on U.S. Taxpayers. The lion’s share of the costs of illegal immigration is borne by state and local taxpayers an estimated $84.2 billion. In 18 states, expenditures on illegal aliens exceeded the size of those states’ budget deficits in FY 2009.

Among the key findings of The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on U.S. Taxpayers:

The $113 billion in outlays for services and benefits to illegal aliens and their families represents an average cost to native-headed households of $1,117 a year. Because the burdens of illegal immigration are not evenly distributed, the costs are much higher in states with large illegal alien populations.
Education for the children of illegal aliens represents the single largest public expenditure at an annual cost of $52 billion. Nearly all of that cost is absorbed by state and local governments.
The federal government recoups about one-third of its share of the costs of illegal immigration in the form of taxes collected. States, which bear a much greater share of the costs, recoup a mere 5 percent of their expenditures from taxes paid by illegal aliens.
Granting amnesty to illegal aliens, as President Obama and others propose, would not significantly increase tax revenues generated by current illegal aliens. However, over time, amnesty would dramatically increase public costs as newly-legalized aliens become eligible for all means-tested government programs.
Arizona’s annual cost of illegal immigration is $2.5 billion.“The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on U.S. Taxpayers provides a definitive response to the question of whether illegal aliens are a net benefit or a net drain on government coffers,” stated Dan Stein president of FAIR. “The report examines virtually every federal, state and local government program to determine the impact of illegal immigration on the bottom line. That bottom line $113 billion a year, and growing makes our nation’s failure to control illegal immigration one of the largest preventable burdens borne by American taxpayers.”

“If political leaders in Washington and state capitals want to understand why the American public is demanding enforcement of our immigration laws, The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on U.S. Taxpayers, provides 113 billion good reasons,” Stein concluded.


http://www.fairus.org/site/News2/1075110886?page=NewsArticle&id=23198&security=1601&news_iv_ctrl=1741


:eddie:

[JohnnyMack]

I wonder what that number would look like if we'd flat tax the **** out of them as soon as they crossed the border?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Harry, you know I've said many times the black market of labor via illegal immigration is not good for the U.S. I favor a free market of labor.

But this report developed for the anti-immigration organization FAIR is ridiculous. The value of labor is not measured solely by the taxes the laborers pay, but also by the value of the labor itself.

The largest export industry in the U.S. is actually tourism, when defined to be that which brings in the most foreign currency. Low wage workers in the tourist industry don't pay lots in taxes. But without low wage workers, the tourist industry does not exist. If hotels had to pay the maids enough so that maids paid more in taxes than they used in services, then hotels would not be competitive for the leisure dollar. Same for agricultural industries. We could not sell our cherries to Japan if all agricultural workers had to be high wage earners. Japan would go elsewhere to buy produce.

The taxpayers may pay $100,000/year in total compensation for a single cop, but that cop does not come close to paying 100,000 in taxes. So are the taxpayers getting screwed? No, not if we value the labor of the cop.

If a woman can hire a Mexican nanny so she can go out of the home to participate in commerce to create wealth, the economic value of the nanny is more than what she pays in taxes.

Not all jobs are high wage jobs. But for many industries low wage jobs are essential.

The top ten percent of income earners pay the lion's share of taxes, and they often are the ones who create wealth in the private sectors that depend of low wage laborers.

[Condescending Sooner]

How people can stick up for ILLEGAL aliens is beyond me.

[Ike]

Great! so now we have a number to put on one side of the equation. Now figure out what the other side is. How much benefit does society, the economy and govt revenue see from their coming here and doing low wage work at what would otherwise likely be below market value?

[Okla-homey]

Great! so now we have a number to put on one side of the equation. Now figure out what the other side is. How much benefit does society, the economy and govt revenue see from their coming here and doing low wage work at what would otherwise likely be below market value?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This. Bingo.

[49r]

How much would it cost taxpayers to build/maintain a wall at the border? Are there any figures on that? I am actually curious.

[Position Limit]

thank you IKE. rarely do you hear this most important aspect of the whole immigration argument. noboby seems to want to quantify the nominal benefit of discounted goods and services.

[delhalew]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This. Bingo.

You guys refuse to see. You are purposefully blind.
Remember when legal immigrants straight from Ellis Island provided our cheap labor along with our young people.
Don't buy the crap about us being dependent on criminals to survive in a modern economy.

[CrimsonJim]

U4-8kXx2pSg

[Hot Rod]

Hey, everyone has their own opinion to this topic and rightfully so. However, in my family's case on this issue. My stepfather was murdered by one of these people after this man was already arrested for a previous crime. Had he been sent back for being an illegal, not abiding by the law, this wouldn't have happened and my kids wouldn't be without their "papa". Yeah, it costs the American people, but it's not always in money.

[Position Limit]

You guys refuse to see. You are purposefully blind.
Remember when legal immigrants straight from Ellis Island provided our cheap labor along with our young people.
Don't buy the crap about us being dependent on criminals to survive in a modern economy.

immigrants from ellis island 100 years ago made the market pal. and please dont compare 1900 with 2010.

nobody's talking about dependency on anybody to survive in a modern economy. and which criminals are referring to? the white collar variety? the federal reserve policy makers? bankers?

[achiro]

I don't understand why it's so hard. Change the work visa program, make the visa's easier to get, and easier to renew. As long as you are working or actively seeking work, you are ok to stay here. Commit a crime and you are going to jail and then home after your sentence.
Establish a different minimum wage system(lower) for the work visa's.(If it isn't enough they don't have to come and work)
and of course, the fair tax would help a BUNCH.

[Ike]

You guys refuse to see. You are purposefully blind.
Remember when legal immigrants straight from Ellis Island provided our cheap labor along with our young people.
Don't buy the crap about us being dependent on criminals to survive in a modern economy.

So are you saying we should replace illegal immigrants with child labor then?


hmmmm....Ok, I can see that.:texan:

[Leroy Lizard]

I wonder what that number would look like if we'd flat tax the **** out of them as soon as they crossed the border?

They don't have any money to tax. Therefore, if you try to flat tax them, you will simply do nothing more than add one more crime to their police blotter: tax evasion.

[Leroy Lizard]

I don't understand why it's so hard. Change the work visa program, make the visa's easier to get, and easier to renew. As long as you are working or actively seeking work, you are ok to stay here.


I think they actually have to be working. And what about the kids? They can't work.

[Leroy Lizard]

So are you saying we should replace illegal immigrants with child labor then?

No, the demand for raw labor today isn't so high that we would have to allow immigrants' children to work, especially with our unemployment rates. Just let more immigrants come ashore and you solve that problem.

Child labor existed primarily because it was easier on families to survive if they had an extra income source, not because children were needed to overcome a labor shortage.

BTW, labor unions were one of the primary proponents of child labor reform. Why is that? Because children drove down wages. (Sound familiar?)

[Leroy Lizard]

Great! so now we have a number to put on one side of the equation. Now figure out what the other side is. How much benefit does society, the economy and govt revenue see from their coming here and doing low wage work at what would otherwise likely be below market value?

So I paid a buck less for the potatoes. But now the government doesn't get as much sales tax. And our legal residents can't find jobs, necessitating them to seek social services. Since they're out of work, they can't pay income taxes.

Benefit to government revenue? I don't see any. Sure, they pay sales tax on goods, but their replacements would too (and illegal aliens are exceptionally frugal). I doubt many of them pay income tax because they earn too little. They typically don't own property, so they don't pay property taxes (which means that in many states they don't help to support local schools, but they drain their schools' resources because their kids need special instruction in English).

Benefit? I don't see many. Certainly not enough to offset their costs.

[Ike]

So I paid a buck less for the potatoes. But now the government doesn't get as much sales tax. And our legal residents can't find jobs, necessitating them to seek social services. Since they're out of work, they can't pay income taxes.

Benefit to government revenue? I don't see any. Sure, they pay sales tax on goods, but their replacements would too (and illegal aliens are exceptionally frugal). I doubt many of them pay income tax because they earn too little. They typically don't own property, so they don't pay property taxes (which means that in many states they don't help to support local schools, but they drain their schools' resources because their kids need special instruction in English).

Benefit? I don't see many. Certainly not enough to offset their costs.

But you will probably use that buck you saved on potatoes to do something else. That money you saved has been freed up for further use in the economy, resulting in more people doing stuff and getting paid for it. Maybe you use it to buy something, in which case, the govt still gets it's sales tax. Maybe even more taxes from either the income of workers or the businesses themselves. Maybe you use it to invest in something. In which case, somebody else is out there putting that saved dollar to good use (and creating tax revenue for the government in some form or another). It only fails to create government revenue if you put that saved dollar under your mattress.

Imagine the converse situation: Say there are no illegals. Ag workers must be paid at least minimum wage, (as well as workers in other fields, but for the time being we'll just consider ag workers). You, and everyone else winds up paying more for food. Since food is a necessity, the amount of money available to consumers to spend on other items must necessarily drop, resulting in a drop in demand for other, non-ag related goods and services....creating losses of jobs and losses of revenue to the government.

[delhalew]

So are you saying we should replace illegal immigrants with child labor then?


hmmmm....Ok, I can see that.:texan:
Young ADULTS trying to break into the workforce, genius.
Between an ever increasing minimum wage and an awful job market, that first job is next to impossible to get. Well, all that plus the exploitation of illegals.

[KC//CRIMSON]

Young ADUTS trying to break into the workforce, genius.


Yeah, Ike! Young ADUTS, genius.

[Leroy Lizard]

But you will probably use that buck you saved on potatoes to do something else. That money you saved has been freed up for further use in the economy, resulting in more people doing stuff and getting paid for it.

But if I paid more, that extra money given to the cashier would also be used by others for something else. So where's the gain?


Imagine the converse situation: Say there are no illegals. Ag workers must be paid at least minimum wage, (as well as workers in other fields, but for the time being we'll just consider ag workers). You, and everyone else winds up paying more for food. Since food is a necessity, the amount of money available to consumers to spend on other items must necessarily drop, resulting in a drop in demand for other, non-ag related goods and services....creating losses of jobs and losses of revenue to the government.

But the people who are working in the fields are making more money than their predecessors, so they can purchase more items and pay more in various taxes.

Again, where's the gain in illegal immigration?

[delhalew]

Yeah, Ike! Young ADUTS, genius.

You better go after a typo. Logic is kryptonite to someone like yourself.

[KC//CRIMSON]

You better go after a typo. Logic is kryptonite to someone like yourself.

Shouldn't you be off unloading lettuce of your rig, Snowman.

[Ike]

But if I paid more, that extra money given to the cashier would also be used by others for something else. So where's the gain?



But the people who are working in the fields are making more money than their predecessors, so they can purchase more items and pay more in various taxes.

Again, where's the gain in illegal immigration?

But new workers in the fields are still low paid workers, who must now also spend more money on food. Their situation is not much different from their predecessors. The only difference that can be made by getting rid of the illegals is that we can move people from unemployment into low-wage work more easily. Which in the current climate is beneficial. But in the pre-crash climate, where we were already near full employment, we would have had to move people out of higher paying jobs into low paying jobs to fill the void left by illegals....which would have driven food prices up even higher. Even if we did that now though, the net result after a full economic recovery (whenever that happens) is that we have fewer people in high paying jobs and more people in low paying jobs. Which is a contractionary force on the economy. As far as many of the costs of illegal immigration that are listed in the report, many of these same costs will apply to these new legal workers. Education of their kids: check. Medicaid: probably a double check because they'll use it more often, it being legal for them now and all. Really, the only gain we get back from getting rid of all the illegals is that their remittances stay here.

This was also a key phrase from that press release:

Granting amnesty to illegal aliens, as President Obama and others propose, would not significantly increase tax revenues generated by current illegal aliens. However, over time, amnesty would dramatically increase public costs as newly-legalized aliens become eligible for all means-tested government programs.
This is going to apply to whatever workforce fills the void left by getting rid of illegals.
Our new legal, low-paid workforce is now eligible for all of these means-tested programs too.

Due to the governments desire to keep food prices low, this would likely then lead to even greater subsidies on farming than we currently dole out to try to reverse these effects.




Look, I'm not trying to argue that illegal immigration is a net benefit (or a net cost) to society. I'm merely trying to show that if people want a number to throw around about the cost of illegal immigration, there is more that has to be thought about. Cheaper food for lower government subsidies is one of them. We all benefit from it. Cheap labor for construction benefits us all. How much? I don't know. But the bottom line is that there is that other part of the equation that gets overlooked, and it shouldn't.

[Harry Beanbag]

Great! so now we have a number to put on one side of the equation. Now figure out what the other side is. How much benefit does society, the economy and govt revenue see from their coming here and doing low wage work at what would otherwise likely be below market value?

You figure it out, I've got my number. The $8 head of lettuce argument is a fallacy.

[Harry Beanbag]

I wonder what that number would look like if we'd flat tax the **** out of them as soon as they crossed the border?

So when we find out they don't have any money then what? Shoot them in the head? Send them back where they came from? Let them come anyway?

[lefty]

Try this link. The writer makes the case that illegal immigrants provide a net ecomomic benefit to states.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/economy/illegal-immigration-provides-benefits-states-despite-rhetoric/

[delhalew]

So when we find out they don't have any money then what? Shoot them in the head? Send them back where they came from? Let them come anyway?

Kind of a moot point anyway. Taxing the **** out of them implies they stop on their way across the boarder and say "Hola! My names is Pedro. I intend on working construction. Here is my contact information, so that you may find me and tax the **** out of me. Nevermind that I intend on working for cash and sending it back to Mexico. Man you gringos are some class A suckers."

[Leroy Lizard]

But new workers in the fields are still low paid workers, who must now also spend more money on food. Their situation is not much different from their predecessors. The only difference that can be made by getting rid of the illegals is that we can move people from unemployment into low-wage work more easily. Which in the current climate is beneficial. But in the pre-crash climate, where we were already near full employment, we would have had to move people out of higher paying jobs into low paying jobs to fill the void left by illegals....

Which can be done by allowing more workers into the country legally.

What we have is uncontrolled illegal migration, which means that in times of high unemployment (like NOW) we have people displaced from unskilled jobs by those who will work for far lower wages. That is not in the country's best interests and it makes it harder to recover from recessions.


Look, I'm not trying to argue that illegal immigration is a net benefit (or a net cost) to society. I'm merely trying to show that if people want a number to throw around about the cost of illegal immigration, there is more that has to be thought about. Cheaper food for lower government subsidies is one of them. We all benefit from it. Cheap labor for construction benefits us all. How much? I don't know. But the bottom line is that there is that other part of the equation that gets overlooked, and it shouldn't.

But the benefits are far overstated. Do illegal aliens purchase things? Sure. But food purchases play a huge part of their total purchasing power, and here in AZ food bought from grocery stores is not taxed. The same was true in CA when I lived there.

Sure, they will lower construction costs, but if that was truly beneficial then we wouldn't have a minimum wage in this country. To the contrary, we would be encouraging industries to lower wages as much as possible.

[Leroy Lizard]

According to the Comptrollers’ office, state and local governments spent $1.16 billion to provide services like education, health care and safety, but raised an estimated $1.58 billion in tax revenues. Based on the data, the Texas taxpayer made a $424.7 million profit on its illegal immigrant population in 2006.

Very misleading. The cost of educating the children of illegal aliens is largely a federal subsidy (Title I, and so on), which the population of the nation as a whole contributes. And this cost is enormous, as I posted in another thread.

And nowhere in the article does it mention the impact of lost jobs. Yes, Juan may be only costing X dollars in social services by coming over here, but he is forcing Jimmy Bob out of work and into accepting social services.

[Chuck Bao]

Benefit to government revenue? I don't see any. Sure, they pay sales tax on goods, but their replacements would too (and illegal aliens are exceptionally frugal). I doubt many of them pay income tax because they earn too little. They typically don't own property, so they don't pay property taxes (which means that in many states they don't help to support local schools, but they drain their schools' resources because their kids need special instruction in English).

Benefit? I don't see many. Certainly not enough to offset their costs.

There is that other side of the equation that you are still not considering. Take Madill Oklahoma as an example. Approximately 50% of the elementary school kids in the Madill public school system are hispanic because the local manufacturing plants hiring of illegal immigrants. Logically, you would think that the school system would be financially busted with that sudden burden of new enrollment of illegal immigrant kids.

When I was home last month, I was surprised to find out that it isn't the case. The school system is doing quite okay, financially speaking. Apparently, those manufacturing plants are indeed paying their fair share of taxes and further expanding their operations in a pretty dismal national economy. Local sales tax revenues are up and Wal-Mart just built that massive new store south of town. There is still a housing shortage and building continues.

This illegal immigrant thing, actually, has served to revitalize the local economy and reverse years of child-bearing adults moving out to OKC or Dallas or elsewhere for the better paying jobs.

Maybe Madill was just lucky. Or, maybe it was just savvy financial planning of the school system. Now, I'm not going to pretend that Madill will offer our school children the best possible education because it won't.

It also isn't worth mentioning that keeping the child-bearing adults in the county employed in menial jobs would solve any social or economic problem because it wouldn't. The jobs simply wouldn't be here.

[delhalew]

Shouldn't you be off unloading lettuce of your rig, Snowman.

Pay attention. I don't unload my rig. Illegals do.
If I were unloading, it would be done in a timely manner, with far less damage to freight.

[Leroy Lizard]

There is that other side of the equation that you are still not considering. Take Madill Oklahoma as an example. Approximately 50% of the elementary school kids in the Madill public school system are hispanic because the local manufacturing plants hiring of illegal immigrants. Logically, you would think that the school system would be financially busted with that sudden burden of new enrollment of illegal immigrant kids.

Let's talk real data here. The ELL population of Madill is tiny.

http://apps.sde.state.ok.us/apireports/APIreports2009/45I002.PDF

For example, in Grade 4 only 9 out of 119 students were categorized as English Language Learner. Are you freakin' kidding me? There are some schools in here in AZ where the percentage is close to 80%.

And what about the effect on school performance? Take Madill. The ELL population scored at around 1000 on the API in comparison to about 1350 for the general student population. Madill did pretty good, a 1331.

Now, increase the number of students scoring 1000 to about 80% of the student population and see what happens. To stem the tide, you have to dump your school's financial resources into ELL instruction. Madill has been lucky so far because it's ELL population is still affordable. Wait until they have 800 ELL students to teach.

[OUMallen]

There is that other side of the equation that you are still not considering. Take Madill Oklahoma as an example. Approximately 50% of the elementary school kids in the Madill public school system are hispanic because the local manufacturing plants hiring of illegal immigrants. Logically, you would think that the school system would be financially busted with that sudden burden of new enrollment of illegal immigrant kids.

When I was home last month, I was surprised to find out that it isn't the case. The school system is doing quite okay, financially speaking. Apparently, those manufacturing plants are indeed paying their fair share of taxes and further expanding their operations in a pretty dismal national economy. Local sales tax revenues are up and Wal-Mart just built that massive new store south of town. There is still a housing shortage and building continues.

This illegal immigrant thing, actually, has served to revitalize the local economy and reverse years of child-bearing adults moving out to OKC or Dallas or elsewhere for the better paying jobs.

Maybe Madill was just lucky. Or, maybe it was just savvy financial planning of the school system. Now, I'm not going to pretend that Madill will offer our school children the best possible education because it won't.

It also isn't worth mentioning that keeping the child-bearing adults in the county employed in menial jobs would solve any social or economic problem because it wouldn't. The jobs simply wouldn't be here.

I think Leroy is right. This anecdotal evidence doesn't make sense. Most school funding comes from property taxes, right? How many illegal aliens own property? How many rent? Well, you can easily assume it' a quantity that is LESS than what it would be if they were legal. But they still send their kids to school.

[Chuck Bao]

Let's talk real data here. The ELL population of Madill is tiny.

http://apps.sde.state.ok.us/apireports/APIreports2009/45I002.PDF

For example, in Grade 4 only 9 out of 119 students were categorized as English Language Learner. Are you freakin' kidding me? There are some schools in here in AZ where the percentage is close to 80%.

And what about the effect on school performance? Take Madill. The ELL population scored at around 1000 on the API in comparison to about 1350 for the general student population. Madill did pretty good, a 1331.

Now, increase the number of students scoring 1000 to about 80% of the student population and see what happens. To stem the tide, you have to dump your school's financial resources into ELL instruction. Madill has been lucky so far because it's ELL population is still affordable. Wait until they have 800 ELL students to teach.

Thanks for posting the data, Leroy. It is very interesting and appreciated.

Out of a 132 kids in the 3rd grade, 65 are white and 42 hispanic. It is not nearly the 50-50 ratio that I was told. But, still I don't even remember one hispanic student when I went K-12, so there, obviously, has been a huge influx.

Maybe those kids' parents have been in the US for a while and not fresh off the bus. Maybe the ELL standards are pretty lax in Madill. Maybe kids pick up a language pretty quickly.

You may be right and it is a diaster waiting to happen. It hasn't yet. And, I'm not going to say that I am not surprised. That is a huge influx of new students with clear disadvantages.

You continue to ignore the fact that the related economic boom is also beneficial. I think that was supposed to be my major point in posting in this thread to counter your point of "no positive benefit". For the record, I do not support illegal immigrants.

[Chuck Bao]

I think Leroy is right. This anecdotal evidence doesn't make sense. Most school funding comes from property taxes, right? How many illegal aliens own property? How many rent? Well, you can easily assume it' a quantity that is LESS than what it would be if they were legal. But they still send their kids to school.

The manufacturing plants where they work pay taxes. Would they really be expanding operations if they didn't have these workers? I really don't know.

It may all be just anecdotal evidence, I agree. I did mention it as only an example against the argument of "no benefit". But as an economist, I have to say that there is and that article quoted in the initial post is off the mark.

[OUMallen]

The manufacturing plants where they work pay taxes. Would they really be expanding operations if they didn't have these workers? I really don't know.

It may all be just anecdotal evidence, I agree. I did mention it as only an example against the argument of "no benefit". But as an economist, I have to say that there is and that article quoted in the initial post is off the mark.

If commercial property taxes paid enough for schools, then we wouldn't have residential property taxes. if the school didn't have the added burden of a group of people that don't pay in as much as everyone else, then the "extra" tax money from a successful business could be put to sue in other public areas.to school.

[Okla-homey]

How much would it cost taxpayers to build/maintain a wall at the border? Are there any figures on that? I am actually curious.

wall, schmall. Walls without troops overwatching their approach are next to useless and also wasteful.

In fact, I think I'm on firm historical footing in stating no wall alone has ever prevented incursion. That's also why all your old-timey fortresses and even older-timey castles had battlements, towers, "crennelations" and firing loopholes.

Even that big wall the Chinese built. Ditto "Hadrian's Wall" the Romans built to keep the wild and wooly Scots and Picts out of Roman England.

And I know you guys are tired of hearing me say this, but you occasionally have to shoot some people who are trying to get over, under or around said wall to prove the point of the wall.

[Harry Beanbag]

wall, schmall. Walls without troops overwatching their approach are next to useless and also wasteful.

In fact, I think I'm on firm historical footing in stating no wall alone has ever prevented incursion. That's also why all your old-timey fortresses and even older-timey castles had battlements, towers, "crennelations" and firing loopholes.

Even that big wall the Chinese built. Ditto "Hadrian's Wall" the Romans built to keep the wild and wooly Scots and Picts out of Roman England.

No doubt you are correct about this.



And I know you guys are tired of hearing me say this, but you occasionally have to shoot some people who are trying to get over, under or around said wall to prove the point of the wall.

We know this isn't going to happen. We have the "wall" in place already, it just isn't being defended like you mentioned above. The "wall" is better know as federal immigration law and employment policies that are not being enforced. If we take away the jobs and any other benefit the illegal aliens may be receiving they will stop coming here.

You have to stop the flood before you can even begin to address the people already here. Everybody should at least be able to agree on that.

[Chuck Bao]

If commercial property taxes paid enough for schools, then we wouldn't have residential property taxes. if the school didn't have the added burden of a group of people that don't pay in as much as everyone else, then the "extra" tax money from a successful business could be put to sue in other public areas.to school.

I feel like I'm caught in a tight corner after using anecdotal evidence to disprove an obvious erroneous statement. BUT DUDE!!! Have you ever played that SIM City game? Successful commercial developments and jobs create new housing. In the real world, people make kids and trade up. That is why the stock market goes so nutso crazy on the latest new building-starts data.

If you say that the education system is much poorer because of illegal immigration, then I would 100% agree.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Well see now I don't feel so bad about paying them so little to hang sheetrock in my house. That takes a load off my mind. Thanks.

[OUMallen]

I feel like I'm caught in a tight corner after using anecdotal evidence to disprove an obvious erroneous statement. BUT DUDE!!! Have you ever played that SIM City game? Successful commercial developments and jobs create new housing. In the real world, people make kids and trade up. That is why the stock market goes so nutso crazy on the latest new building-starts data.

If you say that the education system is much poorer because of illegal immigration, then I would 100% agree.

I lvoe Sim City

http://www.maxissimgames.com/resources/simcity-classic.jpg

[Leroy Lizard]

Thanks for posting the data, Leroy. It is very interesting and appreciated.

Out of a 132 kids in the 3rd grade, 65 are white and 42 hispanic. It is not nearly the 50-50 ratio that I was told. But, still I don't even remember one hispanic student when I went K-12, so there, obviously, has been a huge influx.

Maybe those kids' parents have been in the US for a while and not fresh off the bus. Maybe the ELL standards are pretty lax in Madill. Maybe kids pick up a language pretty quickly.

You may be right and it is a diaster waiting to happen. It hasn't yet. And, I'm not going to say that I am not surprised. That is a huge influx of new students with clear disadvantages.

You continue to ignore the fact that the related economic boom is also beneficial. I think that was supposed to be my major point in posting in this thread to counter your point of "no positive benefit". For the record, I do not support illegal immigrants.

Let's not confuse Hispanics with illegal migrants. Yes, the vast majority of illegal aliens are Hispanic, but that is besides the point.

As for the economic boon, wait a while. I hear this all the time: "We need that big Wal-mart Super Store because of the jobs!" Go back in ten years and you will see the unemployment rate as high as it has ever been, but the population is noticeably scummier. Small towns fall for this crap all the time. Outsiders move in to take the jobs and bring with them all of their own social ills.

The crime rate has increased by 50% (per population) in Madill since 2001, by the way. (Although it peaked in 2007 and has dropped slightly since then.) Which crimes? Mostly theft and burglary, which have nearly doubled.

http://www.city-data.com/city/Madill-Oklahoma.html

Unemployment is at 4.1%. That's somewhat better than the state average of 6.3%.

[Leroy Lizard]

If you say that the education system is much poorer because of illegal immigration, then I would 100% agree.

That alone is a sufficiently big problem. Even if you have short-term gains in employment, a weakening education system will doom you.

[Curly Bill]

I was in Madill a couple of weeks ago. I wouldn't live there.

On the flipside I did eat at a pretty good messican restaurant. ;)


edit...the pretty good messican restaurant was actually in Tishomingo. :O

[Leroy Lizard]

You have to stop the flood before you can even begin to address the people already here. Everybody should at least be able to agree on that.

Go after the employers. Make the punishment so severe that employers won't risk it. And I mean all employers.

I think employers should be able to gain a permit if they are in a situation where illegal aliens are simply the only ones available to do the work. You have to prove hardship. This is the best way to control the flow.

And by hardship, I don't mean "Without Julio, I would have to hire a local kid to mow my lawn" or even worse "Without Julio, I would have to get off my sorry butt and do it myself." (Sorry, Homey)

EDIT: You can charge a fee for registering as an employer able to hire illegal aliens. There! By providing one more way to extract money from the citizenry, I have just won over the Left.

[OUMallen]

I was in Madill a couple of weeks ago. I wouldn't live there.

On the flipside I did eat at a pretty good messican restaurant. ;)

Everyone in Marshall County with half a brain chooses to live on the lake or in Kingston. :D

(Go Redskins!)

[Chuck Bao]

That alone is a sufficiently big problem. Even if you have short-term gains in employment, a weakening education system will doom you.

DUDE!!! DUDE!!! DUDE!!!

Are your preaching to me? Well stop, for the love of God and just please.

Madill High School didn't offer ANY math or science courses my senior year because nobody but me and three other people enrolled in them.

Yeah, I'm still bitter about it, but I like to think that one of these hispanic kids are going to go on and do some really wonderful things.

[Chuck Bao]

I was in Madill a couple of weeks ago. I wouldn't live there.

On the flipside I did eat at a pretty good messican restaurant. ;)

No, you wouldn't because you are a pain in the arse and we wouldn't let you. The fact that you didn't even bother to take the time to see me is really telling. You're a bad guy and I hate you.

[Leroy Lizard]

DUDE!!! DUDE!!! DUDE!!!

Are your preaching to me? Well stop, for the love of God and just please.

Chuck is complaining about others preaching to him. Dear Lord.

[Chuck Bao]

Everyone in Marshall County with half a brain chooses to live on the lake or in Kingston. :D

(Go Redskins!)

What's so great about Stinkston? They have sulphur smelly water and bait shops and convenience stores and gas stations. That's about it. The lake retirement communities are a boon, but they are not capitalizing on it. Maybe the Indian casinos and the redevelopment of Lake Texoma Lodge will help turn it around. Then, I will join you in a round of Go Redskins with the spirit of the local economy!

[Leroy Lizard]

What's so great about Stinkston?

Bait shops.

[Chuck Bao]

Chuck is complaining about others preaching to him. Dear Lord.

If you are turning this argument on it's head just because of that, I really have got to stop posting. That idea was never intentioned, ever.

[Leroy Lizard]

If you are turning this argument on it's head just because of that, I really have got to stop posting. That idea was never intentioned, ever.

Sure, Chuck.

Now, let me ask: We all know that employing illegal aliens is a crime. How do employers get away with it?

[49r]

wall, schmall. Walls without troops overwatching their approach are next to useless and also wasteful.

In fact, I think I'm on firm historical footing in stating no wall alone has ever prevented incursion. That's also why all your old-timey fortresses and even older-timey castles had battlements, towers, "crennelations" and firing loopholes.

Even that big wall the Chinese built. Ditto "Hadrian's Wall" the Romans built to keep the wild and wooly Scots and Picts out of Roman England.

And I know you guys are tired of hearing me say this, but you occasionally have to shoot some people who are trying to get over, under or around said wall to prove the point of the wall.

Oh I know. It's a ludicrous notion that building a wall alone will do much if anything to stem the tide of illegals coming in to our country.

But there are many folks who believe that it's all that's needed. "Build that wall," they say "and illegals will not cost us taxpayers $113 BN per year any more."

My question is, how much would that wall cost us taxpayers? If it worked 100% as it would be hoped for, how many years would it have to be in service before we'd start seeing this wall paying off?

Of course the real answer is you can't figure that, because it just won't be effective by itself, it must also be guarded...and heavily...to be effective. That costs money to the taxpayers too. How much? Does the cost of building, then maintaining and guarding that wall cost less than what the american taxpayer is on the hook for as things stand now vis-a-vis illegal immigration?

Also, one must go ahead and factor in the additional costs for hiring legal labor to perform the jobs these much more cheaply paid illegals do now, and finally, but perhaps much less significant, the "cost" in terms of our image abroad - you know foreign relations wise.

So yeah, I don't think a wall is THE solution either, but I just wanted to try and stimulate some thought about a wall's cost-effectiveness...if in fact, this IS only about money. Which is what the OP certainly seems to imply.

[Okla-homey]

I was in Madill a couple of weeks ago. I wouldn't live there.

On the flipside I did eat at a pretty good messican restaurant. ;)

I'm from Ardmore. We used to make fun of Madillers when I was a kid. They drove the 26 miles on Friday and Saturday night to drag Main and cruise our Sonic. Because we had girls who actually looked the part. And we had pavement.

[Okla-homey]

Oh I know. It's a ludicrous notion that building a wall alone will do much if anything to stem the tide of illegals coming in to our country.

But there are many folks who believe that it's all that's needed. "Build that wall," they say "and illegals will not cost us taxpayers $113 BN per year any more."

My question is, how much would that wall cost us taxpayers? If it worked 100% as it would be hoped for, how many years would it have to be in service before we'd start seeing this wall paying off?

Of course the real answer is you can't figure that, because it just won't be effective by itself, it must also be guarded...and heavily...to be effective. That costs money to the taxpayers too. How much? Does the cost of building, then maintaining and guarding that wall cost less than what the american taxpayer is on the hook for as things stand now vis-a-vis illegal immigration?

Also, one must go ahead and factor in the additional costs for hiring legal labor to perform the jobs these much more cheaply paid illegals do now, and finally, but perhaps much less significant, the "cost" in terms of our image abroad - you know foreign relations wise.

So yeah, I don't think a wall is THE solution either, but I just wanted to try and stimulate some thought about a wall's cost-effectiveness...if in fact, this IS only about money. Which is what the OP certainly seems to imply.

Honestly, and just spitballing here, but the US-Mex border is what? 2000 miles give or take? Estimate $1.50 per per foot for a three strand barbed-wire fence. What's that? Almost 16 million? Now, that wouldn't do anyway.

You'd need at least a 20' wall, with concrete footers at least 5' feet below the surface. You'd need sensors to pick up movement, both above the surface and below. It would need to be lighted or lightable its entire length. And you'd need at least five troops per mile, with a reserve platoon every 5 miles that could reinforce those 20 guys spread out over 5 miles in a flash when needed. You would need buildings, roads, canines, air support, medical, supply, etc. In short, you'd need at least the equivalent of five US infantry divisions to lock it down tight 24/7/365.

We're talking hundreds of billions. Just to get it up and running. That's not to mention the out years. And the fact we don't have five infantry divisions hanging out doing nothing.

[JohnnyMack]

Yeah, in hindsight you probably don't wanna mess with walls.

Sincerely,

Hitler

[JohnnyMack]

So when we find out they don't have any money then what? Shoot them in the head? Send them back where they came from? Let them come anyway?

Do you understand what I mean when I say "flat tax"?

[Chuck Bao]

I'm from Ardmore. We used to make fun of Madillers when I was a kid. They drove the 26 miles on Friday and Saturday night to drag Main and cruise our Sonic. Because we had girls who actually looked the part. And we had pavement.

That, at first, sounded a touch condescending, but the tone somehow fits just perfectly into this thread. I love me some Homey-isms in the morning.

And, exactly how did you know I've been to Ardmore to drag Main during my mis-spent youth? You a girl?

[Collier11]

Now figure out what the other side is. How much benefit does society, the economy and govt revenue see from their coming here and doing low wage work at what would otherwise likely be below market value?

Simply put, IMHO and no disrespect to you, it doesnt matter!

They are here illegally, taking jobs from Americans, and many of them are criminals beyond them being here illegally. Now you might say that they are willing to do low wage work that Americans wont do, who cares. WE have a 10% unemployment rate, people need jobs, it amazes me that we refuse to punish people who commit crimes because they work for cheap.

Maybe if the U.S would reform the welfare program those people would take the low wage jobs, but then thats a whole other topic to discuss

[Chuck Bao]

Simply put, IMHO and no disrespect to you, it doesnt matter!

They are here illegally, taking jobs from Americans, and many of them are criminals beyond them being here illegally. Now you might say that they are willing to do low wage work that Americans wont do, who cares. WE have a 10% unemployment rate, people need jobs, it amazes me that we refuse to punish people who commit crimes because they work for cheap.

Maybe if the U.S would reform the welfare program those people would take the low wage jobs, but then thats a whole other topic to discuss

But...but...but...they are here illegally and ipso facto criminals Like anyone here didn't already realize that. It would be much more useful for you to say that you'd be willing to do their job and be happy about it. Okay, that's not about you but anyone willing to step up to the plate.

[Leroy Lizard]

Yeah, in hindsight you probably don't wanna mess with walls.

Sincerely,

Hitler

Bizarre.

[Curly Bill]

I was in Madill a couple of weeks ago. I wouldn't live there.

On the flipside I did eat at a pretty good messican restaurant. ;)


My bad! It was actually in Tishomingo that I ate at a pretty good messican restaurant, so Madill sucks even more than I thought. :D

[Curly Bill]

I'm from Ardmore. We used to make fun of Madillers when I was a kid. They drove the 26 miles on Friday and Saturday night to drag Main and cruise our Sonic. Because we had girls who actually looked the part. And we had pavement.

At one time there was a restaurant there in Madill called The Grill, it was actually pretty good the time or two we ate there when I was a young lad. Other than that, meh...

[Ike]

And no disrespect to you, but if it doesn't matter enough to properly account for the benefits we get from illegal aliens, then the $113B/Y 'cost' associated with illegals doesn't matter either. Because quite frankly, we are not going to be saving $113B/Y if tomorrow we could get all of the illegals out of this country. It's going to be a number less than that, and by how much I don't know. Nor do the authors of the study.

So why bother computing a 'cost' per year that doesn't accurately reflect what will be gained if we could deport all of them tomorrow?


Simply put, IMHO and no disrespect to you, it doesnt matter!

They are here illegally, taking jobs from Americans, and many of them are criminals beyond them being here illegally. Now you might say that they are willing to do low wage work that Americans wont do, who cares. WE have a 10% unemployment rate, people need jobs, it amazes me that we refuse to punish people who commit crimes because they work for cheap.

Maybe if the U.S would reform the welfare program those people would take the low wage jobs, but then thats a whole other topic to discuss

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Study: In long-term, immigrants are good for U.S.
http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/Peri-June2010.pdf

[Collier11]

Fine, that is easily understandable, the point is, they need to be legalized or get out

[JohnnyMack]

Bizarre.

Not really. Try reading a book once in a while.

[Leroy Lizard]

Not really. Try reading a book once in a while.

Let me guess: You think the Berlin Wall was built during WWII? Other than that, what wall are you talking about?

[KC//CRIMSON]

Maginot.

[Leroy Lizard]

Maginot.

Maybe, but it hardly fits the discussion, unless Mexico has a plan to send the majority of its population around the wall via the Gulf of Mexico. And who would consider the Maginot Line a mere wall?

[KC//CRIMSON]

You're reaching again, stretch.

[Leroy Lizard]

Check out these unemployment rates in the agricultural capital of California, the San Joaquin Valley:

County Unemployment Rate
Kern 16.5%
Tulare 16.9%
Kings 16.8%
Fresno 16.9%
Madera 16.3%
Mariposa 12.2%
Merced 19.9%
Stanislaus 18.3%

Holy ****!!!

[JohnnyMack]

Let me guess: You think the Berlin Wall was built during WWII? Other than that, what wall are you talking about?

Yeah slapnuts, that's what I was talking about.

Not the Atlantic Wall, The Siegfried Line or the Maginot Line.

The point was that walls don't work.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Check out these unemployment rates in the agricultural capital of California, the San Joaquin Valley:

County Unemployment Rate
Kern 16.5%
Tulare 16.9%
Kings 16.8%
Fresno 16.9%
Madera 16.3%
Mariposa 12.2%
Merced 19.9%
Stanislaus 18.3%

Holy ****!!!

It has very little to do with agriculture. Agricultural revenue for 2009 fell only 6% in spite of the severe recession - and that fall had more to do with drought-induced water allocation issues, ill-timed rain during harvest, and maybe a little due to a fall in export demand via the global recession.

The primary cause is real estate crash that followed the housing boom in the first seven years of the decade that was driven by huge demand for $450,000 homes which are now valued at $225,000.

[JohnnyMack]

It has very little to do with agriculture. Agricultural revenue for 2009 fell only 6% in spite of the severe recession - and that fall had more to do with drought-induced water allocation issues, ill-timed rain during harvest, and maybe a little due to a fall in export demand via the global recession.

The primary cause is real estate crash that followed the housing boom in the first seven years of the decade that was driven by huge demand for $450,000 homes which are now valued at $225,000.

<Neo-Con, right-wing parrot>You mean the housing crisis that was completely and entirely 100% the fault of the Democrats? The one that had nothing to do with and Republican policies? The one Barack Obama caused by farting? That one? Yeah. I thought so.</Neo-Con, right-wing parrot>

You're fighting an uphill battle here mi amigo. Anything you offer up will instantly become a dichotomous two-sided split between the angelic Pubs and the demonic Dems. Regardless of the totality of the situation, or what systemic failures brought it about, it's already been predetermined that it's your fault. Have a good day.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

That alone is a sufficiently big problem. Even if you have short-term gains in employment, a weakening education system will doom you.


So hang on, our school system sucks because of the messicans and not the corrupt school boards, entrenched bureaucrats and teachers unions that protect the status quo?

[Okla-homey]

So hang on, our school system sucks because of the messicans and not the corrupt school boards, entrenched bureaucrats and teachers unions that protect the status quo?

Yep. Generally, gubmint skools are hard broke for the reasons you cite. Been that way for at least two decades. Not universally hard-broke, because here in Okie-land, a few (that aren't in urban areas) manage to do a good job. But in the blue states, people who can afford it and who care about their kids, (like the Obama's,) send their kids to privately operated schools.

The presence or absence of the children of illegals has precious little to do with it.

[Leroy Lizard]

Yeah slapnuts, that's what I was talking about.

Not the Atlantic Wall, The Siegfried Line or the Maginot Line.

The point was that walls don't work.

The Berlin Wall worked pretty damn well. Ask any of the East Berliners shot trying to cross it.

The Atlantic Wall and Siegfried Lines were not walls. For all meaningful intent, neither was the Maginot Line.

[Leroy Lizard]

It has very little to do with agriculture. Agricultural revenue for 2009 fell only 6% in spite of the severe recession - and that fall had more to do with drought-induced water allocation issues, ill-timed rain during harvest, and maybe a little due to a fall in export demand via the global recession.

The agricultural revenue is not the issue. It's the huge influx of people willing to perform unskilled labor at rock-bottom pay. This affects a lot more industries than ag. Try to get a job landscaping in an area with large numbers of migrant workers.


The primary cause is real estate crash that followed the housing boom in the first seven years of the decade that was driven by huge demand for $450,000 homes which are now valued at $225,000.

And this affected agricultural centers more than (say) San Diego and LA?

[Leroy Lizard]

So hang on, our school system sucks because of the messicans and not the corrupt school boards, entrenched bureaucrats and teachers unions that protect the status quo?

The fallacies here are all over the place. Where to begin?

Okay, no one said that the suckiness of our school system can only arise from one source.

Using your logic, there is no point in fighting any problems affecting eduction, such as corrupt school boards. "So hang on, our school system sucks because of corrupt school boards and not the messicans, entrenched bureaucrats and teachers unions that protect the status quo?"

[Leroy Lizard]

Yep. Generally, gubmint skools are hard broke for the reasons you cite. Been that way for at least two decades. Not universally hard-broke, because here in Okie-land, a few (that aren't in urban areas) manage to do a good job. But in the blue states, people who can afford it and who care about their kids, (like the Obama's,) send their kids to privately operated schools.

The presence or absence of the children of illegals has precious little to do with it.

It has a lot to do with it, and any cursory glance at the proficiency of schools and the number of enrolled ELL students will confirm it. And the money spent on the ELL population is sizable and very tangible.

[KC//CRIMSON]

The Berlin Wall worked pretty damn well. Ask any of the East Berliners shot trying to cross it.

The Atlantic Wall and Siegfried Lines were not walls. For all meaningful intent, neither was the Maginot Line.


Thanks to you, I'm betting a lot of students carry a "W" on their transcripts, Stretch.

[Leroy Lizard]

Thanks to you, I'm betting a lot of students carry a "W" on their transcripts, Stretch.

You'd get an F. (Assuming the college would admit you.)

[KC//CRIMSON]

You'd get an F.(Assuming the college would admit you.)

Why wouldn't they? They certainly hire clowns to teach. I'd get a W, right after I explained to the Dean that you're incompetent.