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View Full Version : Take a few minutes to read the Declaration of Independence. Now.



TUSooner
7/4/2010, 09:06 AM
And don't skip the list of grievances against the king!

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

— John Hancock

New Hampshire:
Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton

Massachusetts:
John Hancock, Samuel Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry

Rhode Island:
Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery

Connecticut:
Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott

New York:
William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris

New Jersey:
Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark

Pennsylvania:
Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross

Delaware:
Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean

Maryland:
Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton

Virginia:
George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton

North Carolina:
William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn

South Carolina:
Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton

Georgia:
Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton

delhalew
7/4/2010, 09:13 AM
Suck it King George!

Stitch Face
7/4/2010, 09:26 AM
What I love about the Declaration is that, despite the Fathers' vast underlying philosophic reasoning, they don't go into page-after-page of John Locke-ian rationale. It's basically just "Here's what you did, we can do better, let's get it on."

Ardmore_Sooner
7/4/2010, 09:30 AM
Damn those merciless Indian Savages! ;)

Thanks for posting this. Happy 4th everybody!

SanJoaquinSooner
7/4/2010, 09:32 AM
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.


For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:


George was a d**k.

delhalew
7/4/2010, 09:43 AM
Takes one to know one...nanny nanny boo boo!

I slept late and only just having my coffee. So I asked my three year old what she thought about that.

delhalew
7/4/2010, 09:49 AM
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

Hmm:(

KC//CRIMSON
7/4/2010, 10:13 AM
You ever look at Kate Beckinsale, Kelly Brook, Nigella Lawson, Elizabeth Hurley, and Kate Winslett and wonder if separating from the Brits was such a great idea?

NOM! NOM! NOM!

Okla-homey
7/4/2010, 10:15 AM
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither,

How dare that British bastage seal our borders and prevent the migration of foreigners! That's evil, ghastly, ghoulish!!!;)

Okla-homey
7/4/2010, 10:19 AM
You ever look at Kate Beckinsale, Kelly Brook, Nigella Lawson, Elizabeth Hurley, and Kate Winslett and wonder if separating from the Brits was such a great idea?

NOM! NOM! NOM!

Yes, when you stop to consider the handful of British women who are attractive all become movie stars. The other 99.9999999999878%, not so much.;)

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab7/Okla-homey/09010701-charlescamilla.jpg

Stitch Face
7/4/2010, 10:20 AM
How dare that British bastage seal our borders and prevent the migration of foreigners! That's evil, ghastly, ghoulish!!!;)

Back before we had laws about such things and no welfare state it was a bit different.


Besides, SJSooner beat you to it. You pro-illegal-immigrant types need to collaborate on your witty comments before making us read the same thing repeatedly.

Okla-homey
7/4/2010, 10:24 AM
Back before we had laws about such things and no welfare state it was a bit different.


Besides, SJSooner beat you to it. You pro-illegal-immigrant types need to collaborate on your witty comments before making us read the same thing repeatedly.

I'm not pro "illegal immigrant." I'm pro-America. And America is made stronger and better by people who come here and are willing to work their kiesters off. It's been that way since the nineteenth century when "nativists" and "Know-Nothings" fought the immigration of the Irish, Chinese and Germans.

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab7/Okla-homey/knownothing.jpg
Know-Nothing political cartoon c.1855. Drunken "Mick" on the left, drunken "Kraut" on the right, carrying a ballot box and fighting over which bunch of dirty foreigner gets to "steal" an election.

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab7/Okla-homey/1869_anti_chinese.jpg
Californian deals with a Chinese immigrant.

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab7/Okla-homey/ChineseProblem.jpg
American Indian pondering a member of the latest bunch to invade his continent.

In short, we have a long history of this sort of thing. This current disdain for hispanics is just the latest manifestation.

KC//CRIMSON
7/4/2010, 10:26 AM
Yes, when you stop to consider the handful of British women who are attractive all become movie stars. The other 99.9999999999878%, not so much.;)

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab7/Okla-homey/09010701-charlescamilla.jpg

Don't kid yourself, Homester. You'd spread Nutella all over Camilla and have a field day. ;-)

olevetonahill
7/4/2010, 10:29 AM
George was a d**k.


How dare that British bastage seal our borders and prevent the migration of foreigners! That's evil, ghastly, ghoulish!!!;)



Yup , We need to just keep letting folks in from all over the ****ing world.:rolleyes:

I know you guys understand the fact that back in da day we had More room than people, so naturally we wanted and needed LEGAL immigrants.

The problem is the country is gettin full. Its gettin harder and harder to find Jobs and services for the Peeps that are born here.


Ever Blow up a balloon, it gets full but ya keep blowing? The dayum thing eventually blows the **** up .
Kinda whats gonna happen here

Stitch Face
7/4/2010, 10:35 AM
I'm not pro "illegal immigrant." I'm pro-America. And America is made stronger and better by people who come here and are willing to work their kiesters off. It's been that way since the nineteenth century when "nativists" and "Know-Nothings" fought the immigration of the Irish, Chinese and Germans.

The Nativists and Know-Nothings were not paying for the Chinese and Germans to go to college, so it's easy and accurate to assign their motives to racism and fear of lost jobs.

Hard-working immigrants are great, except when the level of our unfunded entitlements and social services already far outweighs the amount of money we have coming in from legal taxpayers. It's been said many times, but open borders are not compatible with a welfare state. Until all income/payroll taxes are converted into consumption taxes, undocumented immigrants (regardless of how diminutive their buttocks are from manual labor) simply add to state and federal deficits.

And it may be a semantic argument but if you're opposed to the enforcement of a given set of laws then you're effectively pro-that illegal activity.

*********

Since you edited your post to throw in accusations of racism, I'll edit mine.


I have no disdain for Hispanics. I have disdain for a country which can't pay for itself and continues to add fuel to the fire every which way it can. If boatloads of Germans, Chinese, and Mexicans want to sign up for legal citizenship, work hard, and pay the same percentage of taxes I pay then I will welcome them readily into the foreclosed house next to mine. Likewise, if a boat full of white Anglo Saxon protestants wants to sneak over under cover of night and consume social services without contributing to the state coffers they should be given a one-way ticket back home.

You pro-illegal-immigrant types just can't fathom an argument not based on racism.

Okla-homey
7/4/2010, 10:42 AM
Yup , We need to just keep letting folks in from all over the ****ing world.:rolleyes:

I know you guys understand the fact that back in da day we had More room than people, so naturally we wanted and needed LEGAL immigrants.

The problem is the country is gettin full. Its gettin harder and harder to find Jobs and services for the Peeps that are born here.




C'mon Vet. Only about 5% of the landmass of the United State is developed land. We are not even remotely close to "being full." There is still plenty of opportunity here, and anyone who is willing to pick up a hammer, hoe, wrench or shovel and sweat in the noon-day heat for an honest day's pay is my brother.

Okla-homey
7/4/2010, 10:46 AM
The Nativists and Know-Nothings were not paying for the Chinese and Germans to go to college.

Hard-working immigrants are great, except when the level of our unfunded entitlements and social services already far outweighs the amount of money we have coming in from legal taxpayers. It's been said many times, but open borders are not compatible with a welfare state. Until all income/payroll taxes are converted into consumption taxes, undocumented immigrants (regardless of how diminutive their buttocks are from manual labor) simply add to state and federal deficits.

And it may be a semantic argument but if you're opposed to the enforcement of a given set of laws then you're effectively pro-that illegal activity.

I agree that we need to broaden the tax base. Developing a course of action that results in the 15 million or so folks who are here illegally to acquire legal status, would be a great start.

I also favor a national sales tax in lieu of the federal income tax. Or, alternatively a flat tax, for everyone who earns income. But not both.

olevetonahill
7/4/2010, 10:46 AM
The problem is the country is gettin full. Its gettin harder and harder to find Jobs and services for the Peeps that are born here.


C'mon Vet. Only about 5% of the landmass of the United State is developed land. We are not even remotely close to "being full." There is still plenty of opportunity here, and anyone who is willing to pick up a hammer, hoe, wrench or shovel and sweat in the noon-day heat for an honest days pay is my brother.

Did ya see the part I bolded bro?. I know several folks who would love to have a job. and as far as the developed land i think ya might be a tad, off not sure.

Okla-homey
7/4/2010, 10:48 AM
Don't kid yourself, Homester. You'd spread Nutella all over Camilla and have a field day. ;-)

I am not at all interested in mowing HRH Prince Charles' lawn.

Okla-homey
7/4/2010, 10:54 AM
Did ya see the part I bolded bro?. I know several folks who would love to have a job. and as far as the developed land i think ya might be a tad, off not sure.

If you trust the USDA, here's their break-out:


The United States has a total land area of nearly 2.3 billion acres. Major uses in 2002 were forest-use land, 651 million acres (28.8 percent); grassland pasture and range land, 587 million acres (25.9 percent); cropland, 442 million acres (19.5 percent); special uses (primarily parks and wildlife areas), 297 million acres (13.1 percent); miscellaneous other uses, 228 million acres (10.1 percent); and urban land, 60 million acres (2.6 percent).

http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/eib14/

Stitch Face
7/4/2010, 11:15 AM
There is still plenty of opportunity here, and anyone who is willing to pick up a hammer, hoe, wrench or shovel and sweat in the noon-day heat for an honest day's pay is my brother.

This 'Champion of the Noble Immigrant' schtick may make one feel righteous, but it overlooks the fact that we are beyond broke and getting poorer everyday when immigrants send the majority of their earnings back to a foreign economy, don't pay income taxes, and then receive free education and healthcare for their kids here.

And yes, I realize illegal immigration makes up only a tiny percentage of our long-term financial disaster. But it's happening, and it's just one more thing driving us into insolvency. You're obviously a history buff, so it must be hard for you to see that immigration today is not the same romantic movement of human forces that it was during the building of our nation. Unfortunately, John/Juan swinging that hammer might be making our country weaker if he takes more from the dole than he adds to the economy.

Okla-homey
7/4/2010, 12:32 PM
This 'Champion of the Noble Immigrant' schtick may make one feel righteous, but it overlooks the fact that we are beyond broke and getting poorer everyday when immigrants send the majority of their earnings back to a foreign economy, don't pay income taxes, and then receive free education and healthcare for their kids here.

And yes, I realize illegal immigration makes up only a tiny percentage of our long-term financial disaster. But it's happening, and it's just one more thing driving us into insolvency. You're obviously a history buff, so it must be hard for you to see that immigration today is not the same romantic movement of human forces that it was during the building of our nation. Unfortunately, John/Juan swinging that hammer might be making our country weaker if he takes more from the dole than he adds to the economy.

How, exactly, does Juan get on the public dole? Oklahoma law won't allow it, Nor does federal law. Other than emergency medical care and public education for children, which are, thankfully, required by federal law. Now, if a state chooses to give benefits and other goodies to illegal aliens, how is that Juan's fault?

Look, I don't have it all figured-out. I'm not sure anyone does. But I can't reconcile my Christianity with being cruel to these people. Especially when I observe them working so hard.

olevetonahill
7/4/2010, 12:42 PM
Homey we've had this convo before
Heres an example of Illegal jaun puttin a strain on our welfare and schools ETC

A guy i know has a sister, She shacked up with Illegal jaun and had 4 kids by him.

He gets busted and sent back to meheco. sneaks back across a few times gets busted and sent back ..
Time goes on his 4 kids and they momma are now on Food stamps and afdc.
a year or so ago the oldest was in the back of a truck and got thrown out spent sevearl months in the hospital .
His POS momma just ups and splits and now his uncle the merican is raising the kids. Ya guessed it
They are all on Food stamps and AFDC.

Now if illegal jaun had stayed the **** home where he belonged we might not have had to foot the bill for his 4 off spring and the POS white woman:mad: , Let alone the expense of sendin his worthless *** back 3 or 5 times

Ya see how this is costing the American Tax payer?

Okla-homey
7/4/2010, 12:49 PM
Homey we've had this convo before
Heres an example of Illegal jaun puttin a strain on our welfare and schools ETC

A guy i know has a sister, She shacked up with Illegal jaun and had 4 kids by him.

He gets busted and sent back to meheco. sneaks back across a few times gets busted and sent back ..
Time goes on his 4 kids and they momma are now on Food stamps and afdc.
a year or so ago the oldest was in the back of a truck and got thrown out spent sevearl months in the hospital .
His POS momma just ups and splits and now his uncle the merican is raising the kids. Ya guessed it
They are all on Food stamps and AFDC.

Now if illegal jaun had stayed the **** home where he belonged we might not have had to foot the bill for his 4 off spring and the POS white woman:mad: , Let alone the expense of sendin his worthless *** back 3 or 5 times

Ya see how this is costing the American Tax payer?

C'mon Vet, are you suggesting that this slattern, had she not had access to messican weenis, would have remained chaste and without children?:rolleyes:

And those babies, the moment they were born, are American citizens, as entitled to gubmint benefits as any other poor American kiddo.

That brings me back to this, people who don't have the means to provide for their children need to STOP MAKING BABIES!!!! That goes for red, white, black, yellow and brown people. Full stop. Unfortunately, the right to bear children has been declared a fundamental right by our courts, and you can't sterilize low-class broke-arse losers.

olevetonahill
7/4/2010, 12:51 PM
I see yer point Homey but you are refusing to see mine.:P

yermom
7/4/2010, 01:08 PM
is your point that if Juan wasn't shipped home he could be working and taking care of his kids?

KC//CRIMSON
7/4/2010, 01:23 PM
"It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." -- Charles A. Beard

Leroy Lizard
7/4/2010, 03:25 PM
Yup , We need to just keep letting folks in from all over the ****ing world.:rolleyes:

I know you guys understand the fact that back in da day we had More room than people, so naturally we wanted and needed LEGAL immigrants.

The problem is the country is gettin full. Its gettin harder and harder to find Jobs and services for the Peeps that are born here.

It's not just overall population: Raw, unskilled labor was needed more back in the day. Today, we need a large preponderance of professionally educated people. Bringing in millions of uneducated, unskilled, impoverished workers places a tremendous strain on our educational system, which reduces the chances our native born have in attaining professional careers.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
7/4/2010, 03:34 PM
It's not just overall population: Raw, unskilled labor was needed more back in the day. Today, we need a large preponderance of professionally educated people. Bringing in millions of uneducated, unskilled, impoverished workers places a tremendous strain on our educational system, which reduces the chances our native born have in attaining professional careers,and assures a legal democrat voting majority, perpetuating the growth of the entitlement state, until full blown socialism is achieved, and our economy goes totally tits-up! amplified.

yermom
7/4/2010, 03:39 PM
It's not just overall population: Raw, unskilled labor was needed more back in the day. Today, we need a large preponderance of professionally educated people. Bringing in millions of uneducated, unskilled, impoverished workers places a tremendous strain on our educational system, which reduces the chances our native born have in attaining professional careers.

to collect unemployment? or to pick lettuce?

Leroy Lizard
7/4/2010, 04:04 PM
to collect unemployment? or to pick lettuce?

Sorry, yermom, but we can't install a peasant economy and make it work in today's economic climate. We need to grow our industries, and to do that we need a highly educated populace. Otherwise we will outsource our professional jobs and end up going the way of Mexico.

It's like heat flow. As Mexico's population creeps over the border, their social burden lessens and ours increases. Sooner or later, the two will establish equilibrium (mediocrity), where there is no more need to swim the river because the economic climate on the other side isn't much better than at home.

One last thing: Just like granting citizenship to illegal aliens is a worthless reaction to an important problem, giving out advanced degrees left and right is equally pointless. We need better education, not simply more degrees.

yermom
7/5/2010, 01:22 AM
if we had more educated people what would they be doing?

Okla-homey
7/5/2010, 07:02 AM
if we had more educated people what would they be doing?

I agree. If we commit to becoming a country which relies on a services based economy and which imports everything it eats, drinks, wears, drives, lives in and works in...we don't need a drone-class. But is that a realistic expectation?

jkjsooner
7/5/2010, 10:45 AM
Sorry, yermom, but we can't install a peasant economy and make it work in today's economic climate. We need to grow our industries, and to do that we need a highly educated populace. Otherwise we will outsource our professional jobs and end up going the way of Mexico.

As long as it costs 5-10 times as much to live here than in other parts of the world we will outsource jobs whether or not we have a highly skilled workforce.

47straight
7/5/2010, 11:26 AM
I find TU's post horribly offensive. What a disgusting violation of the eternal and perfect wall of separation between church and state. Probably a bunch of right-wing Christofacists.

Leroy Lizard
7/5/2010, 11:41 AM
As long as it costs 5-10 times as much to live here than in other parts of the world we will outsource jobs whether or not we have a highly skilled workforce.

We have to grow the industries to keep pace. I see no other solution.

ouwasp
7/5/2010, 07:24 PM
I'm disappointed the founding fathers said nothing of the wretchedness of British cuisine. :(

Leroy Lizard
7/5/2010, 10:44 PM
How, exactly, does Juan get on the public dole? Oklahoma law won't allow it, Nor does federal law. Other than emergency medical care and public education for children, which are, thankfully, required by federal law. Now, if a state chooses to give benefits and other goodies to illegal aliens, how is that Juan's fault?

Look, I don't have it all figured-out. I'm not sure anyone does. But I can't reconcile my Christianity with being cruel to these people. Especially when I observe them working so hard.

First of all, the money diverted to teaching ESL is a huge drain on our educational system. I already posted some data about a month ago that was pretty eye-opening and shows just how money was lost that could have been used for improving the school.

I actually don't mind working adults so much. I just don't want their kids here.

Leroy Lizard
7/5/2010, 10:45 PM
I'm disappointed the founding fathers said nothing of the wretchedness of British cuisine. :(

Since they were British I guess they didn't have anything to compare it to.

But rotten cuisine makes good soldiers. So I understand.

EnragedOUfan
7/6/2010, 08:37 AM
Damn those merciless Indian Savages! ;)

Thanks for posting this. Happy 4th everybody!

That's not necessary my friend. The Native Americans were doing what we would do if Iran was to arrive by the shipload to America uninvited. I'd be wheels up, ready for battle in a heartbeat. And yes, my anncestors are from the Navajo tribe...

Okla-homey
7/6/2010, 10:10 AM
First of all, the money diverted to teaching ESL is a huge drain on our educational system. I already posted some data about a month ago that was pretty eye-opening and shows just how money was lost that could have been used for improving the school.

I actually don't mind working adults so much. I just don't want their kids here.

So, let me get this straight. On the one hand, I presume you want everyone in the US to speak English. OTOH, you don't like the fact public schools teach little Spanish-speaking kids English.

I submit you can't have it both ways.

And I gotta newsflash for you, as to the money "wasted" on ESL. It's money well-spent. And there is absolutely no evidence to suggest money spent on ESL would be better spent by educrats on anything else.

Bourbon St Sooner
7/6/2010, 10:49 AM
Hard-working immigrants are great, except when the level of our unfunded entitlements and social services already far outweighs the amount of money we have coming in from legal taxpayers. It's been said many times, but open borders are not compatible with a welfare state. Until all income/payroll taxes are converted into consumption taxes, undocumented immigrants (regardless of how diminutive their buttocks are from manual labor) simply add to state and federal deficits.



Or we could end the welfare state. But my guess is that the welfare state is going to end itself. Chewing itself up in debt and inflation (And us along with it).

Frozen Sooner
7/6/2010, 10:51 AM
That's not necessary my friend. The Native Americans were doing what we would do if Iran was to arrive by the shipload to America uninvited. I'd be wheels up, ready for battle in a heartbeat. And yes, my anncestors are from the Navajo tribe...

I think you were reading his post a bit more seriously than he intended it.

delhalew
7/6/2010, 11:43 AM
After the phone conversation I just had, I'm saying not only is ESL vital, but it should be an ongoing process.
This, of course, is only possible in the case of legal immigrants as far as adults go. Once again illegal immigrants continue ****ing up my day.

Leroy Lizard
7/6/2010, 03:29 PM
So, let me get this straight. On the one hand, I presume you want everyone in the US to speak English. OTOH, you don't like the fact public schools teach little Spanish-speaking kids English.

Yes, I want our public to understand English.

No, I do not want millions pouring over the border requiring us to teach them English.

The easiest way for 100% of our public to know English is to not raise the number of non-native speakers to begin with.

I mean, @#^&@&#&!!!! All you had to do was think about your statement for just one minute and you would have seen your fallacy on your own.


And I gotta newsflash for you, as to the money "wasted" on ESL. It's money well-spent.

It's money that is needlessly spent if the people we are spending the money on shouldn't even be here in the first place. If these kids need educating, let Mexico educate them. They're Mexico's citizens, not ours.


And there is absolutely no evidence to suggest money spent on ESL would be better spent by educrats on anything else.

Then gut spending on education and spend the money on other social services or give the money back to the taxpayers.

Okla-homey
7/6/2010, 06:37 PM
Then gut spending on education and spend the money on other social services or give the money back to the taxpayers.

I'm down with that. We've been shoveling good money after bad on government-run schools for way too long. We need to keep cutting funding until the teacher's unions cry uncle and agree to lay-off the top end of the salary scale who haven't been in front of a classroom in years.

Collier11
7/7/2010, 02:51 AM
Id rather our teachers have to teach them English if they are going to be here than for myself or others to HAVE to learn Spanish...in America

Leroy Lizard
7/7/2010, 04:15 AM
I'm down with that. We've been shoveling good money after bad on government-run schools for way too long. We need to keep cutting funding until the teacher's unions cry uncle and agree to lay-off the top end of the salary scale who haven't been in front of a classroom in years.

So much for ESL money being well spent.