Immigration!

[Okla-homey]

The Prez is gearing up for the fight to grant citizenship to millions of undocumented Democrats.


UPDATE 1-Obama pushes immigration reform, seeks broad support

By Jeff Mason

WASHINGTON, July 1 (Reuters) - President Barack Obama renewed his push for U.S. immigration reform on Thursday, reaching out to Hispanic voters despite minimal chances that Congress will pass such legislation this year.

In a broad speech that did not break new policy ground, Obama, a Democrat, called for Republican support to pass a law that addresses the 11 million illegal immigrants in the country without disrupting the economy or violating American values.

Obama has been under pressure to keep his promise from the 2008 presidential campaign to overhaul U.S. immigration rules. A tough new law in Arizona has brought the issue to the forefront of public debate, galvanizing Hispanics, who are an important constituency for November's congressional elections.

The president, speaking at American University, criticized the Arizona law but made no mention of a potential lawsuit by his administration to block it before it goes into affect on July 29. The U.S. Justice Department is expected to file a lawsuit challenging the law shortly.

Obama did not lay out a timetable for passing national reform but said he was ready to pursue the issue if Democrats and Republicans could work together.

"I'm ready to move forward, the majority of Democrats are ready to move forward and I believe the majority of Americans are ready to move forward," he said.

"Reform that brings accountability to our immigration system cannot pass without Republican votes. That is the political and mathematical reality."

Both Democrats and Republicans are aware of that political reality, and some in the opposition party accused the president of pandering to his voter base.

Obama's speech on immigration came a day after he ripped Republicans for opposing financial reform and siding with big oil companies, new signs of a White House gearing up for tough elections in the fall. Democrats, who control both houses of Congress, are widely expected to lose seats.

But with energy legislation, financial reform and the economy topping his agenda, Obama is unlikely to make immigration a centerpiece of his campaign to help Democrats hold on to power.

"In an environment where the Democrats feel vulnerable and where the economy is so bad, trying to say we need to give eventual citizenship to illegal immigrants is a very tough sell politically, and for the public," said Steven Camarota, research director at the Center for Immigration Studies.

"IT WON'T WORK"

In a gesture to the opposition party, Obama had rare words of praise for his predecessor, George W. Bush, calling him courageous for working toward immigration reform while he was in office. That attempt proved unsuccessful.

Republican Senator Orrin Hatch characterized Obama's speech as "little more than cynical political pandering to his left wing political base and is more about giving backdoor amnesty to illegal immigrants than real reform."

In May, Obama said he wanted to begin work on immigration reform this year. He supports a system that holds undocumented immigrants "accountable" by having them pay a fine, pay taxes, learn English and become citizens.

"No matter how decent they are, no matter their reasons, the 11 million who broke these laws should be held accountable," Obama said.

He also backs tightening border security and clamping down on employers that hire undocumented workers. He highlighted those points on Thursday, while saying the slow system of processing legal immigrants must be fixed, too.

The president also argued against relying on closed borders alone to fix the problem.

"There are those who argue that we should not move forward with any other elements of reform until we have fully sealed our borders," he said. "Our borders are just too vast for us to be able to solve the problem only with fences and border patrols. It won't work."

Republicans have honed in on the border issue, which is a top priority for voters in border states such as Arizona.

"If he would take amnesty off the table and make a real commitment to border and interior security, he will find strong bipartisan support," said Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell.

"But attacks on states filling the breach created by the failure of the federal government won't secure the border, grow jobs or create solutions for what we all agree is a broken immigration system," he said. (Additional reporting by Matt Spetalnick in Washington and Carolina Madrid in Los Angeles; editing by Philip Barbara)

[AlbqSooner]

Interesting to me how, when he had his 'super majority' in congress and could get virtually any legislation passed, he was conspicuously silent in immigration reform.

Now, with the November elections looming, he proposes legislation that he knows cannot pass before the polling places open. The spin will be, "Hey, we dems tried to help the hispanic communities and left sympathizers. It was those dirty repubs that stopped this vailant effort."

A poorly disguised effort to galvanize the hispanic community and the far left behind the dems while excoriating the repubs at the same time. Continuing to fail to take meaningful steps to secure our borders.

Politically an astute move. As far as undertaking one of his mandated obligations as President, yet another fail.

[sooner_born_1960]

"Our borders are just too vast for us to be able to solve the problem only with fences and border patrols. It won't work."
I don't think anyone has said that is the only thing that needs to be done. It is surely one component of the solution.

[Okla-homey]

I don't think anyone has said that is the only thing that needs to be done. It is surely one component of the solution.

Yep. Use of deadly force is a necessary component in the "border security" calculus.

[KC//CRIMSON]

Interesting to me how, when he had his 'super majority' in congress and could get virtually any legislation passed, he was conspicuously silent in immigration reform.

Arizona says you're welcome.

[Big Red Ron]

I love the smell of mid-term political posturing in the morning. It makes me think of victory.

[KC//CRIMSON]

I love the smell of mid-term political posturing in the morning. It makes me think of victory.

We love the smell of presidential election poll forecasting in the morning, smells like victory!

[Big Red Ron]

We love the smell of presidential election poll forecasting in the morning, smells like victory!Here's a forcast for ya, Obama will be a one termer.

[Okla-homey]

Here's a forcast for ya, Obama will be a one termer.

I think you could be right. It seems the "utes" who swept BHO into office are somewhat disgruntled with the feckless O. presidency. Not to mention all the dead pelicans. The GOP still has to find the right candidate to pull-off a Carter v Reagan style victory. But there's time. Loss of super-majority control of the Congress this fall will help. But hoepfully Nancy P. will still be Speaker, because she's a great bug-a-boo who inspires loathing and energy in the GOP base. Did I mention dead pelicans?

[Big Red Ron]

Jeez, I hope Palin isn't the nominee. That"ll be the best way to see a second Obama term.

[KC//CRIMSON]

Here's a forcast for ya, Obama will be a one termer.

Be sure and let us know when you get all the data and the poll is ready.

[Curly Bill]

KC likes talking about poles...

...how shocking. :rolleyes:





:D

[KC//CRIMSON]

KC likes talking about poles...

...how shocking. :rolleyes:





:D


Your wife told me my pole was bigger than yours.

[Curly Bill]

Your wife told me my pole was bigger than yours.

B*tch always was a liar. :D

[Sooner04]

I think you could be right. It seems the "utes" who swept BHO into office are somewhat disgruntled with the feckless O. presidency. Not to mention all the dead pelicans. The GOP still has to find the right candidate to pull-off a Carter v Reagan style victory. But there's time. Loss of super-majority control of the Congress this fall will help. But hoepfully Nancy P. will still be Speaker, because she's a great bug-a-boo who inspires loathing and energy in the GOP base. Did I mention dead pelicans?
Seems like you take great pride in the tragedy down in the Gulf. Seems like as long as it brings an end to Obama's presidency you're all for it, no matter the loss of wildlife.

That's a bit sad. No, it's really sad.

[Leroy Lizard]

Seems like you take great pride in the tragedy down in the Gulf. Seems like as long as it brings an end to Obama's presidency you're all for it, no matter the loss of wildlife.

That's a bit sad. No, it's really sad.

I'm not sure you're being fair, but even if correct it's actually human. I know many Bush haters that delighted in the U.S. body count in Iraq because it repudiated Bush's war policy.

[Stitch Face]

Seems like you take great pride in the tragedy down in the Gulf. Seems like as long as it brings an end to Obama's presidency you're all for it, no matter the loss of wildlife.

That's a bit sad. No, it's really sad.

Seems like you've learned well from the Obama school of rhetoric.

[KC//CRIMSON]

I know many Bush haters that delighted in the U.S. body count in Iraq because it repudiated Bush's war policy.


You know people in the jihad mujahideen army?

[Sooner04]

Seems like you've learned well from the Obama school of rhetoric.
Why? Because I love animals?

[Okla-homey]

Seems like you take great pride in the tragedy down in the Gulf. Seems like as long as it brings an end to Obama's presidency you're all for it, no matter the loss of wildlife.

That's a bit sad. No, it's really sad.

I merely took a page from Rahm Emmanuel's playbook: "Never let a good crisis go to waste."

And anything that ends this presidency, short of violence, is a good thing.

[Sooner04]

I merely took a page from Rahm Emmanuel's playbook: "Never let a good crisis go to waste."

And anything that ends this presidency, short of violence, is a good thing.
1. I don't know who the Emmanuel guys is.

2. THAT is what is sad. I pity you.

[Okla-homey]

1. I don't know who the Emmanuel guys is.

2. THAT is what is sad. I pity you.

Rahm Emmanual is the White House Chief of Staff and one of the principle hands pulling BHO's strings. You know, like Cheney was to W.

He said, "never let a good crisis go to waste" in encouraging the President to turn on the stimu-dollar hose that, while it hasn't helped the economy, paid-off scores of political debts incurred on the way to the White House.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Yep. Use of deadly force is a necessary component in the "border security" calculus.How Leftist of you! If there is a Chameleon Award, you're a candidate.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Rahm Emmanual is the White House Chief of Staff and one of the principle hands pulling BHO's strings. You know, like Cheney was to W.

He said, "never let a good crisis go to waste" in encouraging the President to turn on the stimu-dollar hose that, while it hasn't helped the economy, paid-off scores of political debts incurred on the way to the White House.A staggering sum, part of the "stimulus", is still unspent. it's awaiting the proper time (hint-Nov) for the trigger to be pulled.

[Stitch Face]

Why? Because I love animals?

Because that's Obama's MO: to deflect criticism for the handling of a situation by saying the real problem is his opponents' criticism itself, and that their criticism indicates they approve of the crisis and probably caused it.

[Leroy Lizard]

You know people in the jihad mujahideen army?

Yeah, people like Pelosi and Reid. I'm glad you get it.

[KC//CRIMSON]

Yeah, people like Pelosi and Reid. I'm glad you get it.

You're trying too hard again.

[olevetonahill]

Seems like you take great pride in the tragedy down in the Gulf. Seems like as long as it brings an end to Obama's presidency you're all for it, no matter the loss of wildlife.

That's a bit sad. No, it's really sad.

Im guessing you are already down there helping with the clean up and working tirelessly to save as many of those poor critters as you can.:rolleyes:

[Okla-homey]

How Leftist of you! If there is a Chameleon Award, you're a candidate.

I'm a rational, observant human being who is not an ideologue. I'm pretty conservative, but depart from the party line on some issues like capital punishment, immigration policy and decriminalization of certain now illicit substances. I also think we put waaaay too many people in cages. I'm down with homosexual marriage too, because there is no reason the gheys shouldn't get to enjoy the pleasure and expense of divorce.

[Leroy Lizard]

Interesting news from California, sorta' related to immigration:

http://www.capitalpress.com/content/ws-overtime-bill-070210



Overtime bill exits committee

SACRAMENTO -- A bill that would extend overtime pay and meal breaks to farmworkers needs only approval by the full Assembly before going to the desk of Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger.

SB1121, by Sen. Dean Florez, D-Shafter, would repeal exemptions for agriculture in state labor rules. It sailed through the Senate before the Assembly committee process sent it to the floor this week for a final vote.

The bill would require overtime pay for work in excess of 40 hours per week and eight hours per day.

The overtime and break-time exemptions have existed for decades. Farm groups say they are necessary because of the difficulties of hiring workers at specific times while juggling weather-related constraints.

Florez has argued that axing the exemption would help secure a stable workforce because it would make California the only state guaranteeing overtime and meal breaks for farm employees.

The bill is opposed by a list of commodity and business groups and supported by unions and worker-interest groups. Opponents argue the requirements could cause more farms to establish operations abroad.

Lawmakers have generally agreed that farmworkers should enjoy the same rights as do their counterparts in other industries, but Republicans have voiced concerns about agriculture's ability to compete under greater constraints.

[yermom]

farmers must have had a great lobby in the past

[Leroy Lizard]

I was surprised to hear that CA was the only state to offer overtime for farm workers.

That California really sets the trend for sound economics.

[yermom]

i'm sure that law only applies to workers on the books anyway

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I was surprised to hear that CA was the only state to offer overtime for farm workers.

That California really sets the trend for sound economics.

You mean the pending bill would make CA the only state to offer overtime. It doesn't presently.

In any case, California is the most agriculturally productive region in the world.

[olevetonahill]

From my days of working Farms in Cal. im thinkin the only peeps this will affect are the part time workers who Plow and stuff

Seems like every thing that got picked, ya got paid by the box, pound, or bushel. You dint get paid an hourly wage

[delhalew]

You all have to have seen this smug prick. This how our representatives treat us. Don't let reality get in the way Stark.
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[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I was surprised to hear that CA was the only state to offer overtime for farm workers.

That California really sets the trend for sound economics.Since we won't be developing desert land for new homes to be built in the future, we can plow and irrigate some new desert land over here in AZ, to make up for loss of agricultural business in CA.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Yep. Use of deadly force is a necessary component in the "border security" calculus.You later responded to this quote, clarifying that "I'm a rational, observant human being". Looks like your rational side took a hike when making the above Border Security comment.

[Okla-homey]

You later responded to this quote, clarifying that "I'm a rational, observant human being". Looks like your rational side took a hike when making the above Border Security comment.

No, it's rational to accept that the border can't be sealed without the use of deadly force against those who attempt to infiltrate. I've been saying that for years.

And since we aren't about to shoot border jumpers*, WTF are we kidding ourselves that these people who are already here, and the ones who follow daily, are going anywhere?

It's mind-numbingly irrational (a/k/a "stupid") to expect a different outcome if the fundamental circumstances remain unchanged.

*which, for the record, I would oppose shooting non-violent border jumpers.

[Leroy Lizard]

Since we won't be developing desert land for new homes to be built in the future, we can plow and irrigate some new desert land over here in AZ, to make up for loss of agricultural business in CA.

And we'll keep the water that we were planning to sell to LA. :D

[Leroy Lizard]

You mean the pending bill would make CA the only state to offer overtime. It doesn't presently.

In any case, California is the most agriculturally productive region in the world.

No, it already does. The bill would extend overtime to those working more than 40 hours per week no matter how many days they work per week.

As for the latter, CA has the soil, no doubt. It's also busted financially.

[Leroy Lizard]

You all have to have seen this smug prick. This how our representatives treat us. Don't let reality get in the way Stark.
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What an ***-hole.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

What an ***-hole.Hear that, Homey? That's kinda how you sound on this issue!

[Okla-homey]

Hear that, Homey? That's kinda how you sound on this issue!

That's right. Anyone who doesn't agree with the "seal the borders" people is an a-hole. Got it. Notwithstanding the fact it is impossible to "seal the borders" under current US law.

[delhalew]

That's right. Anyone who doesn't agree with the "seal the borders" people is an a-hole. Got it. Notwithstanding the fact it is impossible to "seal the borders" under current US law.

WTF...

[Okla-homey]

WTF...

Because a cop can't arrest a person unless he has probable cause to believe a crime has been committed and that the person he plans to arrest did it. And a cop can't stop and question unless he has reasonable suspicion. Stopping people just because they look hispanic or can't speak English is illegal.

And don't blame me. I didn't make the rules. I just know them.

Those things, combined with the fact a wall or fence won't keep folks out, means it is impossible under current US law to "seal the borders."

[delhalew]

Because a cop can't arrest a person unless he has probable cause to believe a crime has been committed and that the person he plans to arrest did it. And a cop can't stop and question unless he has reasonable suspicion. Stopping people just because they look hispanic or can't speak English is illegal.

And don't blame me. I didn't make the rules. I just know them.

Those things, combined with the fact a wall or fence won't keep folks out, means it is impossible under current US law to "seal the borders."

The best "sealing of the borders" happens at the border. If the will and resources were available ANY boarder can be sealed. You don't have to "racially profile" someone tunneling under a fence, speaking no english, with a satchel full of pot.
Folks who make this complicated just don't want to do anything.

[delhalew]

You know what else. Your post does sound as arrogant, and patronizing as that scumbag Stark. Congrats.

[JohnnyMack]

My great great grandfather didn't come all the way over here on a boat so some immigrant could come in here an ruin this place!

[olevetonahill]

This debate will always run in circles. Until it is focused.
Legal immigrant
Illegal immigrant

learn the difference peeps.;)

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I wish there was a way to merge this thread with the declaration of independence and the Hillary Clinton threads so I could more easily reply to all the horsesh*t flying around.

[Okla-homey]

The best "sealing of the borders" happens at the border. If the will and resources were available ANY boarder can be sealed.

I agree 100%. But "we," as in Congress (who make our laws and pay for stuff with appropriations bills) and the Executive branch (which enforces the laws Congress makes), lack the will to do the various things that are required to seal our borders. There are lots of reasons for this. A couple that come to mind are that American agri-business lobbies to keep the border leaky because we need the cheap labor. Ditto the hospitality and restaurant businesses. Also, several big faith groups, not the least of which is the Roman Catholic Church and my own Southern Baptist Convention, favor a path to citizenship for those here illegally...which of course emboldens and encourages thinking about sneaking in.

Therefore, let's just get on with it and accept these folks. They are not going anywhere and more arrive every flippin' day. Gritching about that fact accomplishes absolutely nothing positive. Indeed, it makes matters worse by polarizing and dividing us.

[Leroy Lizard]

Therefore, let's just get on with it and accept these folks.

I can't stop all crime, but I'll be damned if I am going to break bread with criminals.

[XingTheRubicon]

My great great grandfather didn't come all the way over here on a boat illegally and put his offspring on the government teat

F

[Okla-homey]

My great great grandfather didn't come all the way over here on a boat so some immigrant could come in here an ruin this place!

Spoken like a true Know-Nothing!!!:D

[Okla-homey]

I can't stop all crime, but I'll be damned if I am going to break bread with criminals.

Best to keep that to yourself, given the fact several, perhaps even dozens of said "criminals" personally touched every morsel of food you consume at each of the several steps from field or pasture to your plate. They might decide to give you a little sumpin' extra.;)

And not just the kitchen staff in the restaurants you patronize. That whole produce aisle at the grocery store, the bread aisle, the canned vegetables, and all that tasty meat, chicken and fish.

[SicEmBaylor]

This debate will always run in circles. Until it is focused.
Legal immigrant
Illegal immigrant

learn the difference peeps.;)

I oppose both.

In any case, Homey is right in one regard...it's impossible to completely seal the border (that shouldn't stop us from trying). The key to really putting a dent in illegal immigration is to go after the employers who make it worth the effort for illegals to come here. If you prosecute employers and cheap-*** folks like Homey who see nothing wrong with hiring illegals for some weekend handyman work then you can really start to make progress. Make the law so harsh that it simply isn't worth the risk to hire illegals and the jobs they come here for will dry up.

It won't get rid of ALL of them but it'll fix the problem to a degree it'll no longer be a major issue or concern.

[Leroy Lizard]

Best to keep that to yourself, given the fact several, perhaps even dozens of said "criminals" personally touched every morsel of food you consume at each of the several steps from field or pasture to your plate. They might decide to give you a little sumpin' extra.;)

And not just the kitchen staff in the restaurants you patronize. That whole produce aisle at the grocery store, the bread aisle, the canned vegetables, and all that tasty meat, chicken and fish.

Yes, illegal aliens typically work in the food industry. Is that supposed to be some grand revelation? Does that change the argument at all?

[delhalew]

I agree 100%. But "we," as in Congress (who make our laws and pay for stuff with appropriations bills) and the Executive branch (which enforces the laws Congress makes), lack the will to do the various things that are required to seal our borders. There are lots of reasons for this. A couple that come to mind are that American agri-business lobbies to keep the border leaky because we need the cheap labor. Ditto the hospitality and restaurant businesses. Also, several big faith groups, not the least of which is the Roman Catholic Church and my own Southern Baptist Convention, favor a path to citizenship for those here illegally...which of course emboldens and encourages thinking about sneaking in.

Therefore, let's just get on with it and accept these folks. They are not going anywhere and more arrive every flippin' day. Gritching about that fact accomplishes absolutely nothing positive. Indeed, it makes matters worse by polarizing and dividing us.

The time is rapidly approaching were our elected officials will pay a hefty price for both their lack of will on the issue and their smugness when insulting and denigrating their constituents.

On the work place enforcement...did you know that labor costs account for only 10% of produce costs in this country. I will gladly pay more for strawberries if that means an American has gainful employment. I demonstrate this by purchasing more costly American made pants, boots, and even underwear. Does it take more effort than running to Wal-mart and purchasing garments made by Chinese children? Yes, and I'm happy to do it.

[Leroy Lizard]

I oppose both.

It won't get rid of ALL of them but it'll fix the problem to a degree it'll no longer be a major issue or concern.

But according to Homey, if you can't stop all of it, then there is no point in trying to stop any of it.

And we shouldn't even speak about stopping it, otherwise they might get angry and do something to our food.

[delhalew]

I oppose both.

In any case, Homey is right in one regard...it's impossible to completely seal the border (that shouldn't stop us from trying). The key to really putting a dent in illegal immigration is to go after the employers who make it worth the effort for illegals to come here. If you prosecute employers and cheap-*** folks like Homey who see nothing wrong with hiring illegals for some weekend handyman work then you can really start to make progress. Make the law so harsh that it simply isn't worth the risk to hire illegals and the jobs they come here for will dry up.

It won't get rid of ALL of them but it'll fix the problem to a degree it'll no longer be a major issue or concern.

I would support a moratorium on ALL immigration until this is solved. However, as you know, I am not opposed to orderly, legal immigration. I do believe when you have leaky pipes, you shut off all the water in the house to repair it.

[Leroy Lizard]

The time is rapidly approaching were our elected officials will pay a hefty price for both their lack of will on the issue and their smugness when insulting and denigrating their constituents.

On the work place enforcement...did you know that labor costs account for only 10% of produce costs in this country. I will gladly pay more for strawberries if that means an American has gainful employment. I demonstrate this by purchasing more costly American made pants, boots, and even underwear. Does it take more effort than running to Wal-mart and purchasing garments made by Chinese children? Yes, and I'm happy to do it.

It doesn't matter anyway, because as the cost of food increases wages will go up gradually.

I was in an airport shuttle van in Phoenix around the time of the Arizona law's signing and was talking to the driver, who was from the Dominican Republic. He started in about the fact that our state was being racist and should accept the fact that these people needed work.

I then asked him, "Did you hear that companies in some cities are training them to drive airport shuttles?" (I made it up for kicks.) For the next few minutes he went off about how this would drive him out of a job and they can't do that and he has worked at the shuttle service for 14 years and these companies are breaking the law and and and...

As long as it's someone else's job on the line, who cares? Right?

[JohnnyMack]

The fact that immigration has been hijacked by the political parties and turned into another us versus them debate is just another in the long line of things that make me really sad. Obviously if we didn't have a terrible system in place for dealing with immigration we wouldn't have this problem. Our tax structure simply wasn't designed to accommodate this sort of influx of people. If, as Homey mentioned earlier, we had a flat tax in place in which everyone who entered this country paid their fair share I don't think we'd have the same grimacing about illegal immigration. It is unfair that people can come here and reap the benefits of what everyday taxpayers sow, but until we do something about our tax structure, immigration will continue to be a problem. This isn't 1983 East Germany, building a wall just isn't an option.

[Harry Beanbag]

Arizona's law is working and it hasn't even gone into effect yet. A good friend of mine is a manager in a large restaurant chain out here. All of his cooks are leaving the state by the end of the month.

He is one of the people stuck in the middle, he agrees personally with the law, but it is going to directly impact his daily life.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I oppose both.

In any case, Homey is right in one regard...it's impossible to completely seal the border (that shouldn't stop us from trying). The key to really putting a dent in illegal immigration is to go after the employers who make it worth the effort for illegals to come here. If you prosecute employers and cheap-*** folks like Homey who see nothing wrong with hiring illegals for some weekend handyman work then you can really start to make progress. Make the law so harsh that it simply isn't worth the risk to hire illegals and the jobs they come here for will dry up.

It won't get rid of ALL of them but it'll fix the problem to a degree it'll no longer be a major issue or concern.Homey also somehow failed to mention how desperately the Democrats want to legalize the illegals for the votes they will get, to perpetuate D's running the country, and the continued destruction of capitalism and the private sector. Guess he left out that part because it's a "meh".

[soonerscuba]

People who believe in a moratorium on all immigration clearly aren't familiar with the relationship between professional services (you know, the people who pay the bills and are essentially buoying the whole economy) and available human capital. Frankly, it's one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.

[SicEmBaylor]

Homey also somehow failed to mention how desperately the Democrats want to legalize the illegals for the votes they will get, to perpetuate D's running the country, and the continued destruction of capitalism and the private sector. Guess he left out that part because it's a "meh".

However, you also fail to mention how the national GOP wants to do the exact same thing for the exact same reasons.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

However, you also fail to mention how the national GOP wants to do the exact same thing for the exact same reasons.The National GOP are bigger fools than even I think they are, then, since there is almost nil chance that the majority of the illegals-poof-you're legals would vote for republicans. The MSM would effectively prevent that, don't you think?

[SicEmBaylor]

The National GOP are bigger fools than even I think they are, then, since there is almost nil chance that the majority of the illegals-poof-you're legals would vote for republicans. The MSM would effectively prevent that, don't you think?

I don't think the MSM has even a 100th of the amount of power you give them credit for.

Bush, Rove, and Co. reasoned long ago that the GOP has to court hispanic voters in order to be electorally viable in national elections. It is true that the GOP has to start making inroads with one of the minority groups in order to win future elections, and they reasoned that hispanics (with their relatively "conservative" social values) were their best chances. That's why Bush was so squishy with the hispanics and why so many on the national GOP level continue to be as well.

[Chuck Bao]

It’s all about economics. In my opinion, talk about a border wall or enforcing the law will not get the job done. Penalties for employers hiring illegals will probably hurt more than it helps at this point. There would have to be a severe and prolonged depression before Americans would lower themselves to accept those jobs.

It is a great pity that NAFTA did not live up to its early promise. When it was being proposed and passed, I was quite hopeful that the economic integration of the US, Canada and Mexico would prove to be a boon for everyone and eliminate the immigration problems that we now have. I guess that I was really wrong and I want to know why.

Jerk made the comment about buying products produced in America. I like that idea, a lot. But, it is interesting that he said not made in China. Why didn’t he say not made in Mexico?

I’ve see the Asian economic miracle – rapid industrialization and growth of a middle class – first hand and I thought that model could be replicated elsewhere. I am not really clear why it hasn’t been. It is pretty much a no-brainer with tax incentives and supporting infrastructure. We don’t even have to mention lax labor and environmental laws.

I have never been to Mexico. But, it is pretty obvious that it has huge potential and a huge potential market. Yeah, it is a ****hole now, but I’ve seen vast industrial estates built in the most god forsaken places in Asia.

Instead, American companies largely choose to invest in manufacturing in China. I could have told them that their technology would be stolen. I could have told them that the massive potential market in China is just an illusion. Okay, that’s pointless in hindsight.

Somebody mentioned about US illegal immigrants sending back money to their home countries as a drain on the economy. That is just a tiny pittance compared to the money large US companies have sent overseas to invest in manufacturing in Asia.

On one hand, I want to make yet another dig at big corporate America for selling us out.

On the other hand, I want to say that it’s all capitalism and don’t bitch and whine about it when it turns around and bites you in the ***. It's not only about potential voters as some of you pretend. But, it is also about a pretty big jump, skip and leap between economic ideology and reality. And, the Republicans seem to be choking on a really big one here.

[JohnnyMack]

I oppose both.


What was your logic behind this again? I forget. Seriously.

[SicEmBaylor]

What was your logic behind this again? I forget. Seriously.

I assume the illegal part of the equation is obvious.

As for opposing legal immigration, my views on the matter were summed up pretty well in a book by Mark Krikorian that I had the privilege to meet several years ago. I think the name of the book is, "The Case Against Immigration" but I'd have to look it up to be sure.

The problem is that immigrants dilute our national identity especially since modern immigrants overwhelmingly come from 3rd world countries very different than our modern Republic that depends upon a politically informed populace (how informed our native citizens are is certainly up for debate as well) with few marketable skills. They dilute our culture, they add to the problem of urban sprawl (since they also overwhelmingly settle in cities and along the coasts), they take up social services and resources that could be directed to our native-born citizens, and quite simply we don't need them. The population of these United States is 350m+, and I'm confident we can do without them.

I also understand there is a strong economic case to be made for allowing more immigrants, but you have to understand that I'm not overly concerned about growing and maintaining the behemoth of a national economy that we're accustomed to. I see a lot of value in downsizing our economy and making it more localized and regionalized rather than the national/international economy we have today. In fact, overall, I think a large national economy is bad for the Republic.

[yermom]

i can understand some of the viewpoint that a large national economy is bad, but with current technology, i think you are thinking in the 1860s again

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I don't think the MSM has even a 100th of the amount of power you give them credit for.

Bush, Rove, and Co. reasoned long ago that the GOP has to court hispanic voters in order to be electorally viable in national elections. It is true that the GOP has to start making inroads with one of the minority groups in order to win future elections, and they reasoned that hispanics (with their relatively "conservative" social values) were their best chances. That's why Bush was so squishy with the hispanics and why so many on the national GOP level continue to be as well.I think most people here know that, and also know that the attraction of FREEBIES offered by the Dems, and the passionate support of the dems by the MSM, has resulted in the Repubs hopes for votes from latino illegals-poofed-legals being squashed for foreseeable future elections. The repubs that have delusions of newly citizenized latinos voting R are WRONG.

I think you apparently don't realize the true power of the MSM, coupled with the entertainment field, and Public Education.

[yermom]

are the MSM, public schools and the entertainment field new since Bush was elected?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

are the MSM, public schools and the entertainment field new since Bush was elected?You SHOULDN'T even have to ask yourself that question, you know.

[JohnnyMack]

I assume the illegal part of the equation is obvious.

As for opposing legal immigration, my views on the matter were summed up pretty well in a book by Mark Krikorian that I had the privilege to meet several years ago. I think the name of the book is, "The Case Against Immigration" but I'd have to look it up to be sure.

The problem is that immigrants dilute our national identity especially since modern immigrants overwhelmingly come from 3rd world countries very different than our modern Republic that depends upon a politically informed populace (how informed our native citizens are is certainly up for debate as well) with few marketable skills. They dilute our culture, they add to the problem of urban sprawl (since they also overwhelmingly settle in cities and along the coasts), they take up social services and resources that could be directed to our native-born citizens, and quite simply we don't need them. The population of these United States is 350m+, and I'm confident we can do without them.

I also understand there is a strong economic case to be made for allowing more immigrants, but you have to understand that I'm not overly concerned about growing and maintaining the behemoth of a national economy that we're accustomed to. I see a lot of value in downsizing our economy and making it more localized and regionalized rather than the national/international economy we have today. In fact, overall, I think a large national economy is bad for the Republic.

At what point in our nations history do you think we should have stopped allowing people to immigrate to our country?

Also, you might be the dumbest smart person I know.

[delhalew]

At what point in our nations history do you think we should have stopped allowing people to immigrate to our country?

Also, you might be the dumbest smart person I know.

I think the right kind of immigrant can enrich us culturally and economically, but what's interesting is that I can disagree without being insulting. You apparently cannot.

[XingTheRubicon]

I'm not sure it counts if you insult Sic'em.

[delhalew]

I'm not sure it counts if you insult Sic'em.

Lol. You may have a point. I just like that he tries to use his head, and looks a little deeper to form his opinions. You can't say he is regurgitating the same crap we are all spoon fed. He's a good kid capable of making a good point. Kind of rare, you know?

[Okla-homey]

Yes, illegal aliens typically work in the food industry. Is that supposed to be some grand revelation? Does that change the argument at all?

No, it's the fact you, and everyone else who buys his food in a store or restaurant wouldn't like what would happen if the illegal workforce disappeared.

[Okla-homey]

i can understand some of the viewpoint that a large national economy is bad, but with current technology, i think you are thinking in the 1860s again

The US is dependant on the global economy in which we compete, borrow, invest and consume. There's simply no going back. It's absurd to contend otherwise.

[Okla-homey]

Arizona's law is working and it hasn't even gone into effect yet. A good friend of mine is a manager in a large restaurant chain out here. All of his cooks are leaving the state by the end of the month.

He is one of the people stuck in the middle, he agrees personally with the law, but it is going to directly impact his daily life.

FWIW, we heard the same stuff, always second hand, here in Oklahoma when HB1804 was passed. HB1804 was promptly eviscerated by a federal court, and I haven't noticed any difference in the number of probably illegal folks here now and the numbers here before HB1804 became law.

[delhalew]

No, it's the fact you, and everyone else who buys his food in a store or restaurant wouldn't like what would happen if the illegal workforce disappeared.

It would be impossible for me to convey how perplexed I am that a person such as yourself holds such a low opinion of Americans ability to take care of themselves. Almost as confusing as your ignoring the national security implications of this issue.

[JohnnyMack]

I think the right kind of immigrant can enrich us culturally and economically, but what's interesting is that I can disagree without being insulting. You apparently cannot.

Or he's an overly simplistic twit who hides in an ivory tower of learning to avoid the real world. It's possible he doesn't have the faintest clue what it takes to work and sacrifice to take care of a family and he likes to throw out what to you seem like well reasoned and well thought out opinions on a world he knows nothing about because he's a scared little girl who can't handle trying to make a go of it on his own.

[Okla-homey]

The key to really putting a dent in illegal immigration is to go after the employers who make it worth the effort for illegals to come here. If you prosecute employers and cheap-*** folks like Homey who see nothing wrong with hiring illegals for some weekend handyman work then you can really start to make progress. Make the law so harsh that it simply isn't worth the risk to hire illegals and the jobs they come here for will dry up.



Such laws will be enacted by Congress and signed into law by the President on the same day monkeys fly out of my colon whistling "Dixie." There are very powerful interests who simply will not abide such a shift.

Your only hope is the Article V procedure involving state legislatures' applications for a constitutional convention. If you think you can get 33 state legislatures on board, you can get it done. Otherwise, again, you're just whistling "Dixie."

You have to be practical. Wishing and/or advocating for an extremely unlikely legislative sea change is the same as ignoring the problem.

[delhalew]

Or he's an overly simplistic twit who hides in an ivory tower of learning to avoid the real world. It's possible he doesn't have the faintest clue what it takes to work and sacrifice to take care of a family and he likes to throw out what to you seem like well reasoned and well thought out opinions on a world he knows nothing about because he's a scared little girl who can't handle trying to make a go of it on his own.

Some of that may be valid. If so, it only makes him more of an rarity for not ending up with your opinions.

[Harry Beanbag]

FWIW, we heard the same stuff, always second hand, here in Oklahoma when HB1804 was passed. HB1804 was promptly eviscerated by a federal court, and I haven't noticed any difference in the number of probably illegal folks here now and the numbers here before HB1804 became law.


I guess we'll see about the courts, but as of now the law is proving to do its job without any sort enforcement at all. Just the hint that the law will be enforced appears to be all it takes to make the lawbreakers go somewhere else. I don't consider the evidence I mentioned as second hand really, anecdotal sure, but when a good friend of mine says he's cooking food instead of actually managing his restaurant I believe him.

[Harry Beanbag]

It would be impossible for me to convey how perplexed I am that a person such as yourself holds such a low opinion of Americans ability to take care of themselves. Almost as confusing as your ignoring the national security implications of this issue.

Homey is a big government conservative.

[delhalew]

Such laws will be enacted by Congress and signed into law by the President on the same day monkeys fly out of my colon whistling "Dixie." There are very powerful interests who simply will not abide such a shift.

Your only hope is the Article V procedure involving state legislatures' applications for a constitutional convention. If you think you can get 33 state legislatures on board, you can get it done. Otherwise, again, you're just whistling "Dixie."

You have to be practical. Wishing and/or advocating for an extremely unlikely legislative sea change is the same as ignoring the problem.

Not true. Crying about how helpless we are is ignoring the problem. Reminding folks that our founders have foreseen this, and willed us the tools to repair it, is the truest of actions.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

FWIW, we heard the same stuff, always second hand, here in Oklahoma when HB1804 was passed. HB1804 was promptly eviscerated by a federal court, and I haven't noticed any difference in the number of probably illegal folks here now and the numbers here before HB1804 became law.

Because it's recovering. Population, that is. Recovering with the sanctuary city policies of previous mayoral administrations and the federal abolition of 1804.

East Tulsa, a rapidly growing hispanic center, from what I've heard and seen being stationed out that way, took a residential home sales hit from two differing causes as 1804 started to become reality. One, lack of sales of existing market homes from a large contingent of buyers, Tulsa's hispanic community. Two, a slight increase in homes being placed on the market from those attempting to liquidate assets in anticipation of the legislation. That trend has passed along with 1804 as the fear in the hispanic community faded rather quickly from the law's striking along with Tulsa's failure to truly utilize TCSO's ability to process illegals.

Bingo. Revitalized illegal hispanic community in Tulsa.

That's been my experience, at least.

[Leroy Lizard]

The fact that immigration has been hijacked by the political parties and turned into another us versus them debate is just another in the long line of things that make me really sad.

The way to avoid that is for the political leaders in power to solve the problem. When one party wants to solve the problem and another one doesn't, the situation will always spiral down to gutter.

[SicEmBaylor]

Lol. You may have a point. I just like that he tries to use his head, and looks a little deeper to form his opinions. You can't say he is regurgitating the same crap we are all spoon fed. He's a good kid capable of making a good point. Kind of rare, you know?

How YOU doin'?? :D

[Leroy Lizard]

On the other hand, I want to say that it’s all capitalism and don’t bitch and whine about it when it turns around and bites you in the ***. It's not only about potential voters as some of you pretend. But, it is also about a pretty big jump, skip and leap between economic ideology and reality. And, the Republicans seem to be choking on a really big one here.

The rules of capitalism don't encompass situations where an impoverished country sends millions of laborers over the border to work for next to nothing. How can any system withstand that?

[delhalew]

Don't let it go to your head. There is a crack ho around every corner.:)

[Leroy Lizard]

No, it's the fact you, and everyone else who buys his food in a store or restaurant wouldn't like what would happen if the illegal workforce disappeared.

You mean, we wouldn't like it if there was a huge demand for employees?

I would. Sure, it might be a bit inconvenient for a short time, but right now we have a huge unemployment problem here. I think having thousands of openings appear overnight would help.

[Leroy Lizard]

I think most people here know that, and also know that the attraction of FREEBIES offered by the Dems, and the passionate support of the dems by the MSM, has resulted in the Repubs hopes for votes from latino illegals-poofed-legals being squashed for foreseeable future elections. The repubs that have delusions of newly citizenized latinos voting R are WRONG.

They're more than wrong; they're nuts. Hispanics (other than Cubans) don't vote Republican.

[SicEmBaylor]

Or he's an overly simplistic twit who hides in an ivory tower of learning to avoid the real world. It's possible he doesn't have the faintest clue what it takes to work and sacrifice to take care of a family and he likes to throw out what to you seem like well reasoned and well thought out opinions on a world he knows nothing about because he's a scared little girl who can't handle trying to make a go of it on his own.

What does an appreciation for hard work have to do with whether or not you support immigration? Work ethic has nothing to do with it. I empathize, truly, with hispanics who come over here and work their *** off to provide a better life for their family. That has nothing to do with whether immigration, legal or otherwise, is sound national policy. It's the kind of emotion based, "pull on people's heartstrings" sad sob stories that liberals love to use to justify their social agenda. So, while I empathize with those people I ultimately simply don't care insofar as I think their plight should be the basis of public policy.

Let me give you another example. My sister's medications for her transplant and the disease she contends with costs hundreds of dollars EVERY week. It's a huge financial burden. Now, if prescription medications suddenly became "free" in this country it would ease the financial burden tremendously. It would ensure that I'd never have to worry about my sister's healthcare needs again. However, do I believe in nationalizing healthcare and would I support "free" prescription drugs? Absolute f'ing not.

In the end, you can find thousands of heart wrenching stories for any cause and exploit those cases to advance an agenda.

[olevetonahill]

Such laws will be enacted by Congress and signed into law by the President on the same day monkeys fly out of my colon whistling "Dixie." There are very powerful interests who simply will not abide such a shift.

Your only hope is the Article V procedure involving state legislatures' applications for a constitutional convention. If you think you can get 33 state legislatures on board, you can get it done. Otherwise, again, you're just whistling "Dixie."

You have to be practical. Wishing and/or advocating for an extremely unlikely legislative sea change is the same as ignoring the problem.

So you got Monkees up yer ***? I knew ya wernt looking to good last time i saw ya :D



Because it's recovering. Population, that is. Recovering with the sanctuary city policies of previous mayoral administrations and the federal abolition of 1804.

East Tulsa, a rapidly growing hispanic center, from what I've heard and seen being stationed out that way, took a residential home sales hit from two differing causes as 1804 started to become reality. One, lack of sales of existing market homes from a large contingent of buyers, Tulsa's hispanic community. Two, a slight increase in homes being placed on the market from those attempting to liquidate assets in anticipation of the legislation. That trend has passed along with 1804 as the fear in the hispanic community faded rather quickly from the law's striking along with Tulsa's failure to truly utilize TCSO's ability to process illegals.

Bingo. Revitalized illegal hispanic community in Tulsa.

That's been my experience, at least.

Fireman
Right after 1804 was voted in , we saw the same sorta thing as AZ is experiencing right now.

The Illegals were leaving in droves . The Feds stepped in and Lo and Behold they decided to stay :eek:
Much the same as what will happen in AZ.:(

[Leroy Lizard]

So you got Monkees up yer ***? I knew ya wernt looking to good last time i saw ya :D

Fireman
Right after 1804 was voted in , we saw the same sorta thing as AZ is experiencing right now.

The Illegals were leaving in droves . The Feds stepped in and Lo and Behold they decided to stay :eek:
Much the same as what will happen in AZ.:(

I have made at least three recent posts and received no snide comments from you. WTF?

[olevetonahill]

I have made at least three recent posts and received no snide comments from you. WTF?

Been to busy with Important people :P

[Leroy Lizard]

Been to busy with Important people :P

That's better.

[olevetonahill]

Plus I do not make "SNIDE" comments. All my thoughts and comments are well thought out and articulated.:cool:

[Leroy Lizard]

Plus I do not make "SNIDE" comments. All my thoughts and comments are well thought out and articulated.:cool:

Wow, that says a lot.

[Chuck Bao]

I’m just amazed at some of you wetting yourselves over this issue. It must be all of that estrogen in the water and teenage movie angst in the air.

Let the vampires into the country and the werewolves and the chupacabras. Stomp your feet and roll your eyes all you want. At least they know how to move their *** and find some work, even if it is across the tracks or in Hollywood with the Jews and the queers.

They are different than we are. And, some of them may want to drink our blood. Now when was blood sucking and throat ripping not admirable character traits in most US managerial jobs?

If you’re frightened, get a cross. Two sticks or even two fingers work if you have enough faith to back it up.

At the end of the day, that is all we have – work and faith.

[JohnnyMack]

Plus I do not make "SNIDE" comments. All my thoughts and comments are well thought out and articulated.:cool:

I'm just proud of you for spelling articulated right.

[JohnnyMack]

What does an appreciation for hard work have to do with whether or not you support immigration? Work ethic has nothing to do with it. I empathize, truly, with hispanics who come over here and work their *** off to provide a better life for their family. That has nothing to do with whether immigration, legal or otherwise, is sound national policy. It's the kind of emotion based, "pull on people's heartstrings" sad sob stories that liberals love to use to justify their social agenda. So, while I empathize with those people I ultimately simply don't care insofar as I think their plight should be the basis of public policy.

Let me give you another example. My sister's medications for her transplant and the disease she contends with costs hundreds of dollars EVERY week. It's a huge financial burden. Now, if prescription medications suddenly became "free" in this country it would ease the financial burden tremendously. It would ensure that I'd never have to worry about my sister's healthcare needs again. However, do I believe in nationalizing healthcare and would I support "free" prescription drugs? Absolute f'ing not.

In the end, you can find thousands of heart wrenching stories for any cause and exploit those cases to advance an agenda.

You can't really empathize with them, seeing as you don't really work at anything. You can pontificate, you can have an opinion and you can prattle on and on, but you can't really empathize with someone trying his or her best to take care of his or her family.

Your argument against immigration isn't based on anything other than xenophobia, plain and simple. Now I'm not saying that I don't also want our immigration policy changed, but I want everyone to have to pay their fair share. I wonder what would happen if we lined up IRS agents at the border instead of INS agents? I wonder how popular the border crossings would be if they all had to pay in, instead of just taking advantage of the system?

[Harry Beanbag]

You can't really empathize with them, seeing as you don't really work at anything. You can pontificate, you can have an opinion and you can prattle on and on, but you can't really empathize with someone trying his or her best to take care of his or her family.

Your argument against immigration isn't based on anything other than xenophobia, plain and simple. Now I'm not saying that I don't also want our immigration policy changed, but I want everyone to have to pay their fair share. I wonder what would happen if we lined up IRS agents at the border instead of INS agents? I wonder how popular the border crossings would be if they all had to pay in, instead of just taking advantage of the system?


The leafblower guy and fry cook wouldn't pay taxes anyway, they don't make enough money. They aren't useful to society, just leaches on the system. I feel for them wanting a better way of life, we just can't afford it anymore.

[JohnnyMack]

The leafblower guy and fry cook wouldn't pay taxes anyway, they don't make enough money. They aren't useful to society, just leaches on the system. I feel for them wanting a better way of life, we just can't afford it anymore.

That's my entire point!!!! These aren't bad people who offer no benefit to our society, it's our system that is ****ed up. Sign up all the immigrants you want...provided they all pay a flat tax.

[Leroy Lizard]

I’m just amazed at some of you wetting yourselves over this issue. It must be all of that estrogen in the water and teenage movie angst in the air.

Let the vampires into the country and the werewolves and the chupacabras. Stomp your feet and roll your eyes all you want. At least they know how to move their *** and find some work, even if it is across the tracks or in Hollywood with the Jews and the queers.

They are different than we are. And, some of them may want to drink our blood. Now when was blood sucking and throat ripping not admirable character traits in most US managerial jobs?

If you’re frightened, get a cross. Two sticks or even two fingers work if you have enough faith to back it up.

I suggest we perform the same trivialization on the situation in Thailand.

[Leroy Lizard]

Your argument against immigration isn't based on anything other than xenophobia, plain and simple.

I think you libs must have a Dictionary of Phobias that you yank out every time you want to engage in an argument. The "if you oppose it you must be scared of it" bit is getting a little hackneyed.

[JohnnyMack]

I think you libs must have a Dictionary of Phobias that you yank out every time you want to engage in an argument. The "if you oppose it you must be scared of it" bit is getting a little hackneyed.

I'm a lib? Cool. I'll make sure and update my Facebook profile.

But seriously, if every immigrant who came across these borders was allowed in, and we had a flat tax on consumable items in this country, how would you feel about it?

Don't strain yourself thinking too hard, if you need me to draw you some diagrams let me know.

[Leroy Lizard]

I'm a lib? Cool. I'll make sure and update my Facebook profile.

But seriously, if every immigrant who came across these borders was allowed in, and we had a flat tax on consumable items in this country, how would you feel about it?

They don't buy enough to make it worth it. They are probably some of the most frugal people in the country (which is to their credit).

And your point is worthless. We don't have a flat tax on consumables. Install the flat tax first, then we'll talk. (And that day isn't coming.)

[JohnnyMack]

They don't buy enough to make it worth it. They are probably some of the most frugal people in the country (which is to their credit).

And your point is worthless. We don't have a flat tax on consumables. Install the flat tax first, then we'll talk. (And that day isn't coming.)

That's my whole point you slaptard. Try thinking out side the box you ****ing mushroom.

[Leroy Lizard]

That's my whole point you slaptard. Try thinking out side the box you ****ing mushroom.

I have a better idea: Quit flappin' your gums about a tax that doesn't even exist.

Would you be in favor of illegal immigration if every Mexican that crossed the border had $1 million in his pockets? That question is about as meaningful.

[SicEmBaylor]

You can't really empathize with them, seeing as you don't really work at anything. You can pontificate, you can have an opinion and you can prattle on and on, but you can't really empathize with someone trying his or her best to take care of his or her family.

Your argument against immigration isn't based on anything other than xenophobia, plain and simple. Now I'm not saying that I don't also want our immigration policy changed, but I want everyone to have to pay their fair share. I wonder what would happen if we lined up IRS agents at the border instead of INS agents? I wonder how popular the border crossings would be if they all had to pay in, instead of just taking advantage of the system?

Sure I can empathize with them. I don't necessarily sympathize with them though.

I'll admit to being a tad-bit xenophobic, but that doesn't make me wrong. It's like that saying, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you."

[olevetonahill]

I'm just proud of you for spelling articulated right.

Thas all gooder and shat, But how bout using it righter ????:P

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Can we please get back to hating hispanics already?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

But before we do, can someone answer a question for me?

Why is it called "Latin America"?

[olevetonahill]

That's my entire point!!!! These aren't bad people who offer no benefit to our society, it's our system that is ****ed up. Sign up all the immigrants you want...provided they all pay a flat tax.

Jm , Maybe a 1/3 rd aint the Bad guys . The other 2/3rds are and they bring all kinds of Bad shat our way :pop:

[olevetonahill]

Can we please get back to hating hispanics already?

I dont HATE beaners per-say No way in hell am I racist . I hate every one equally:D

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I suggest we perform the same trivialization on the situation in Thailand.Hear hear!

[delhalew]

But before we do, can someone answer a question for me?

Why is it called "Latin America"?

Probably because spanish, as well as french and italian, are all languages directly descended from latin.

[EnragedOUfan]

Can't you all see that this immigration stuff is nothing but politics?

Its quite smart on the Republicans part actually.....Rally for immigration reform, the Democrats will slack, and in the meantime, the tea party is gaining huge popularity.....Its all politics. The Republicans can't stand the Democrats in charge and they're doing everything to stop it. Maybe back in 2006, when Mexico's president declared war on the cartels, should we have wanted immigration reform. I remember 2006-2008, the last years of Bush's reign, and I can't remember hearing a peep from Republicans about immigration reform like I'm hearing now (typical coming from the Republican party). This is all politics. Its ironic in my opinion, because for what its worth, I read an article the other day stating that immigration was actually down, and that because the Border Patrol has increased in numbers recently, the numbers of illegals crossing the border decreased.......

[delhalew]

It's amazing how little some people know about this. It may be politics for politicians, but it is very real for the working class heros of this country.
Not so long ago a young man could get a job in a wharehouse, which would lead to driving a forklift or to progressing through the steps of the manufacturing process.
Now the entry level jobs are filled by illegals, cutting the link between the working American and foreman/managerial positions. These people are not just picking fruit. If you think it's not bad in OK, you'd be wrong.
You don't even want to know who is performing maintanence on commercial planes. The condition of our aircraft has suffered for it. Not mention the skilled workers who have been priced out of that industry.
Politics huh...come down to the real world.

[C&CDean]

It's amazing how little some people know about this. It may be politics for politicians, but it is very real for the working class heros of this country.
Not so long ago a young man could get a job in a wharehouse, which would lead to driving a forklift or to progressing through the steps of the manufacturing process.
Now the entry level jobs are filled by illegals, cutting the link between the working American and foreman/managerial positions. These people are not just picking fruit. If you think it's not bad in OK, you'd be wrong.
You don't even want to know who is performing maintanence on commercial planes. The condition of our aircraft has suffered for it. Not mention the skilled workers who have been priced out of that industry.
Politics huh...come down to the real world.

So StoopTroup is an illegal? Who knew?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

VIVA LA MEXICAN AIRLINES!

[delhalew]

So StoopTroup is an illegal? Who knew?

That guy at the tailgates is just his gringo proxy. He uses Babelfish to post on SF.:D

[JohnnyMack]

It's amazing how little some people know about this. It may be politics for politicians, but it is very real for the working class heros of this country.
Not so long ago a young man could get a job in a wharehouse, which would lead to driving a forklift or to progressing through the steps of the manufacturing process.
Now the entry level jobs are filled by illegals, cutting the link between the working American and foreman/managerial positions. These people are not just picking fruit. If you think it's not bad in OK, you'd be wrong.
You don't even want to know who is performing maintanence on commercial planes. The condition of our aircraft has suffered for it. Not mention the skilled workers who have been priced out of that industry.
Politics huh...come down to the real world.

Yep. All our manufacturing woes and lack of jobs are cause of teh illegals. Had nothing to do with the businesses wanting to relocate to foreign countries where labor was cheaper.

[Frozen Sooner]

Airline deregulation had NOTHING to do with the destructive "race to the bottom" of airline maintenance in the 90s. Nothing at all. It was all illegals.

:rolleyes:

[delhalew]

BOTH Froze and JM...don't be dense. Just because there is a problem, does not mean it is the only problem.
You are purposely putting out a false arguwment that any given industry or economy can have only one major problem at once.
Come on guys.

[delhalew]

Yep. All our manufacturing woes and lack of jobs are cause of teh illegals. Had nothing to do with the businesses wanting to relocate to foreign countries where labor was cheaper.

BTW this is more of you knowing dick about you're talking about. We still manufacture in this country. I know because I spend every day going from one steel plant to one metal works shop. I have to hunt hard looking for someone who speaks english, but we are making things.

[Chuck Bao]

I suggest we perform the same trivialization on the situation in Thailand.

Dude, lighten up and have a go about the inane crap in Thailand or my sucky posts about it.

I was just being really annoyed with all of that Twilight twit-fest that is going on now to earn the US foreign exchange in the billions. I always thought those vampire movies were like a metaphor, but it blows over my head. Possibly it could be about immigration or a fag hag caught outside a love triangle. I'm not smart enough to figure it out.

The dope of it is that Hollywood is our fix. Like it, or not. That and health care and the pharmaceutical industry will win the international competitiveness awards.

[Harry Beanbag]

Yep. All our manufacturing woes and lack of jobs are cause of teh illegals. Had nothing to do with the businesses wanting to relocate to foreign countries where labor was cheaper.


The neverending quest to save a quarter and looking for the easy way out is the major malfunction of this entire country...in every area. Too few people live by (or even have any) principles anymore.

[delhalew]

Dude, lighten up and have a go about the inane crap in Thailand or my sucky posts about it.

I was just being really annoyed with all of that Twilight twit-fest that is going on now to earn the US foreign exchange in the billions. I always thought those vampire movies were like a metaphor, but it blows over my head. Possibly it could be about immigration or a fag hag caught outside a love triangle. I'm not smart enough to figure it out.

The dope of it is that Hollywood is our fix. Like it, or not. That and health care and the pharmaceutical industry will win the international competitiveness awards.

Do you know how I know your gay...:D
If I have to watch Twilight to understand your metaphor, I'm out of luck. No vamp movie worth it's salt lacks boobies and buckets of blood. Emo saved by the bell vamp movie...no thanks.

[delhalew]

Yeah double post!

[Leroy Lizard]

Can't you all see that this immigration stuff is nothing but politics?

In other words, immigration is an issue for which not everyone agrees.

No ****! What isn't just politics?

[JohnnyMack]

Just bend over and take whatever is dished out to you.

Nope.

[ndpruitt03]

“The United States have already felt the evils of incorporating a large number of foreigners into their national mass; by promoting in different classes different predilections in favor of particular foreign nations, and antipathies against others, it has served very much to divide the community and to distract our councils. It has been often likely to compromise the interests of our own country in favor of another. The permanent effect of such a policy will be, that in times of great public danger there will be always a numerous body of men, of whom there may be just grounds of distrust; the suspicion alone will weaken the strength of the nation, but their force may be actually employed in assisting an invader.” - Alexander Hamilton

This isn't exactly a new problem.

[Leroy Lizard]

It wasn't necessarily a problem then. Hamilton is simply forecasting that it will be a problem in the future.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I can't stop all crime, but I'll be damned if I am going to break bread with criminals.

Lizard, you make your living off college students. Get real.

Fake-or-borrowed IDs to get drunk as opposed to fake-or-borrowed IDs to work.

not to mention the pot smoking, illegal copyright violating, FASFA-lying, illegal on-line gambling, ...

You'll be damned.

[Leroy Lizard]

Lizard, you make your living off college students. Get real.

Fake-or-borrowed IDs to get drunk as opposed to fake-or-borrowed IDs to work.

not to mention the pot smoking, illegal copyright violating, FASFA-lying, illegal on-line gambling, ...

You'll be damned.

Is this the creation of some online random-thought generator? Or are you drunk?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Can't you all see that this immigration stuff is nothing but politics?

Its quite smart on the Republicans part actually.....Rally for immigration reform, the Democrats will slack, and in the meantime, the tea party is gaining huge popularity.....Its all politics. The Republicans can't stand the Democrats in charge and they're doing everything to stop it. Maybe back in 2006, when Mexico's president declared war on the cartels, should we have wanted immigration reform. I remember 2006-2008, the last years of Bush's reign, and I can't remember hearing a peep from Republicans about immigration reform like I'm hearing now (typical coming from the Republican party). This is all politics. Its ironic in my opinion, because for what its worth, I read an article the other day stating that immigration was actually down, and that because the Border Patrol has increased in numbers recently, the numbers of illegals crossing the border decreased.......Directions to Soonerfans.com: "from the turnip truck, go to nearest computer, and ask someone to get on the internet for you, then type in soonerfans.com"...congrats, you found it!

[Leroy Lizard]

Lizard, you make your living off college students. Get real.

Fake-or-borrowed IDs to get drunk as opposed to fake-or-borrowed IDs to work.

not to mention the pot smoking, illegal copyright violating, FASFA-lying, illegal on-line gambling, ...

You'll be damned.

Here's a more apt scenario.

Because I'm such an awesome teacher, you want to take my stats and probability course at OU. You walk in, but there's no room. I only have seats (jobs) for 30 and they're all filled up.

Then, you notice that over half the class are not even OU students; they're from UT. They want to learn statistics and probability but they think their own professors stink. They're not officially enrolled, in fact, a university rule doesn't even allow them to attend. I allow them in my class because I have a bleeding heart.

Tough luck. That's the way it goes. Maybe you can take the class next semester. But since every year there are more UT students looking for high-quality profs like myself, your chances of getting in are never going to be good. You may not even graduate.

Worse yet, UT will not allow you to slip illegally into their classrooms at all. But when OU tries to crack down on illegal attendance, UT Regents cry foul. ("Our professors suck! For OU to deny attendance to our students is inhuman!")

What should I have done? Simple. I should have turned to the UT students and told them:

You are not here legally. This class is for OU students and you will have to give up your seats. If you fail to leave, I will have campus security come and deport you out of this room. If you want to attend this class, there is a procedure for officially enrolling in the university. Until then, you are students of UT and your education is UT's responsibility, not ours.

There! The immigration problem summarized. The analogy isn't perfect, but it's pretty close.


btw, I no longer teach at OU.

[yermom]

stats and probability?

ZzzzZZzzzZzzz

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Here's a more apt scenario.

Because I'm such an awesome teacher, you want to take my stats and probability course at OU. You walk in, but there's no room. I only have seats (jobs) for 30 and they're all filled up.

Then, you notice that over half the class are not even OU students; they're from UT. They want to learn statistics and probability but they think their own professors stink. They're not officially enrolled, in fact, a university rule doesn't even allow them to attend. I allow them in my class because I have a bleeding heart.

Tough luck. That's the way it goes. Maybe you can take the class next semester. But since every year there are more UT students looking for high-quality profs like myself, your chances of getting in are never going to be good. You may not even graduate.

Worse yet, UT will not allow you to slip illegally into their classrooms at all. But when OU tries to crack down on illegal attendance, UT Regents cry foul. ("Our professors suck! For OU to deny attendance to our students is inhuman!")

What should I have done? Simple. I should have turned to the UT students and told them:

You are not here legally. This class is for OU students and you will have to give up your seats. If you fail to leave, I will have campus security come and deport you out of this room. If you want to attend this class, there is a procedure for officially enrolling in the university. Until then, you are students of UT and your education is UT's responsibility, not ours.

There! The immigration problem summarized. The analogy isn't perfect, but it's pretty close.


btw, I no longer teach at OU.

We have a free market of labor in higher ed. Universities can hire the best faculty, regardless of nationality. There's no cap on H1-B visas for higher ed like there used to be.

I'm not aware of a cap on student visas -- if there is one, I don't believe it is as restrictive as H2-A or H2-B worker visas used outside of higher ed. And I'm sure if one applies for a student visas it does not take 20 years to get approved like some family-based visas.

[olevetonahill]

Here's a more apt scenario.

Because I'm such an awesome teacher, you want to take my stats and probability course at OU. You walk in, but there's no room. I only have seats (jobs) for 30 and they're all filled up.

Then, you notice that over half the class are not even OU students; they're from UT. They want to learn statistics and probability but they think their own professors stink. They're not officially enrolled, in fact, a university rule doesn't even allow them to attend. I allow them in my class because I have a bleeding heart.

Tough luck. That's the way it goes. Maybe you can take the class next semester. But since every year there are more UT students looking for high-quality profs like myself, your chances of getting in are never going to be good. You may not even graduate.

Worse yet, UT will not allow you to slip illegally into their classrooms at all. But when OU tries to crack down on illegal attendance, UT Regents cry foul. ("Our professors suck! For OU to deny attendance to our students is inhuman!")

What should I have done? Simple. I should have turned to the UT students and told them:

You are not here legally. This class is for OU students and you will have to give up your seats. If you fail to leave, I will have campus security come and deport you out of this room. If you want to attend this class, there is a procedure for officially enrolling in the university. Until then, you are students of UT and your education is UT's responsibility, not ours.

There! The immigration problem summarized. The analogy isn't perfect, but it's pretty close.


btw, I no longer teach at OU.

No I know yer just making **** up.:rolleyes:

[Leroy Lizard]

stats and probability?

ZzzzZZzzzZzzz

WTF? It's a great class.

[Leroy Lizard]

We have a free market of labor in higher ed. Universities can hire the best faculty, regardless of nationality. There's no cap on H1-B visas for higher ed like there used to be.

I'm not aware of a cap on student visas -- if there is one, I don't believe it is as restrictive as H2-A or H2-B worker visas used outside of higher ed. And I'm sure if one applies for a student visas it does not take 20 years to get approved like some family-based visas.

Nice dodge.

And you're wrong. If you don't have legal residence in this country, you cannot be hired as a prof. Therefore, there is no free market of labor in higher ed.

[SicEmBaylor]

Here's a story on border incursions by the Mexican military:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIL_xy0akqo

If I were President, this would happen exactly ONCE and never again. They wouldn't have a military left to incur with.

[delhalew]

The BALLS.

[Leroy Lizard]

Here's a story on border incursions by the Mexican military:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIL_xy0akqo

If I were President, this would happen exactly ONCE and never again. They wouldn't have a military left to incur with.

Yeah, but look who's president.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Nice dodge.

And you're wrong. If you don't have legal residence in this country, you cannot be hired as a prof. Therefore, there is no free market of labor in higher ed.

No, you are wrong. Being hired by a university can qualify you for legal residence. It is the job offer that gets you the H1-B. You don't first get the H1-B and then get hired.

If a university wants to hire some hot-shot researcher who presently lives in Moscow with no U.S. legal residence, it can be done.

Professional sports teams make job offers to foreign athletes before they have legal residence. They do not get a resident visa until there is an offer in writing.

[yermom]

Yeah, but look who's president.

you mean Bush, when that actually happened?

[ndpruitt03]

You can't blame one president or politician. Fact is that illegal immigration has been ignored for way too long. And it looks like both parties would rather keep ignoring it.

[Frozen Sooner]

No, you are wrong. Being hired by a university can qualify you for legal residence. It is the job offer that gets you the H1-B. You don't first get the H1-B and then get hired.

If a university wants to hire some hot-shot researcher who presently lives in Moscow with no U.S. legal residence, it can be done.

Professional sports teams make job offers to foreign athletes before they have legal residence. They do not get a resident visa until there is an offer in writing.

Under an H1-B don't you have to make a showing that there's no qualified US citizen who will take the job? A few years back I posted a job listing for Head Hockey Coach at UAA that the University had to do to retain their coach on an H1-B visa (I think it was an H1-B, at least.)

[Leroy Lizard]

No, you are wrong. Being hired by a university can qualify you for legal residence. It is the job offer that gets you the H1-B. You don't first get the H1-B and then get hired.

Correction: It can help you in your application for legal residence. But if you are denied, then the university will look elsewhere.

Now, the U.S. typically doesn't turn down that many who have those kind of credentials. If you want a better analogy to the hiring of Mexican migrants, consider the hiring of teaching assistants. We lose TAs all the time because they lose legal residence. That's not exactly a free market.


If a university wants to hire some hot-shot researcher who presently lives in Moscow with no U.S. legal residence, it can be done.

Sure, it can. There are a lot of things that are possible.


Professional sports teams make job offers to foreign athletes before they have legal residence. They do not get a resident visa until there is an offer in writing.

They can still be turned down by the government, and if they are they will not be hired.

This whole issue you raised is pointless anyway. Illegal aliens are not here because they applied for a visa and were accepted. If you want to really look at the free-marketedness of higher-ed labor, ask yourself: "If a prof snuck into the U.S. without receiving legal entry, would the university hire him anyway?"

No.

In fact, our applications specifically ask the applicant whether they are a citizen, have legal residence, or can gain legal residence. Every applicant had better answer yes to one of those questions or they're not getting hired.

[yermom]

You can't blame one president or politician. Fact is that illegal immigration has been ignored for way too long. And it looks like both parties would rather keep ignoring it.

i remember that story and was incredulous. it goes way beyond "immigration"

i guess when most of our guys are in Asscrackistan the corrupt Mexican army dudes know they can do whatever they want at the border

[yermom]

WTF? It's a great class.

my eyes gloss over when someone says "n factorial"

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Under an H1-B don't you have to make a showing that there's no qualified US citizen who will take the job? A few years back I posted a job listing for Head Hockey Coach at UAA that the University had to do to retain their coach on an H1-B visa (I think it was an H1-B, at least.)

You are correct you have to do a posting - like run an ad in the Chronicle of Higher Ed, but there can be dozens of qualified US citizens who apply and you can still hire the one who needs the H1-B. I don't know if the bureaucrats make a distinction between merely qualified and most qualified. Certainly, anyone who hires an H1-B should be able to articulate why the person they hired is more qualified than other applicants.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

"If a prof snuck into the U.S. without receiving legal entry, would the university hire him anyway?"

No.

In fact, our applications specifically ask the applicant whether they are a citizen, have legal residence, or can gain legal residence. Every applicant had better answer yes to one of those questions or they're not getting hired.

the question is moot because ability to gain legal residence is routine in higher ed.

I'd conjecture that if getting H2-A and H2-B visas were as near-automatic as getting H1-Bs in higher ed, the percentage of our workforce illegally present would shrink from 5% to less than 1%.

[Leroy Lizard]

my eyes gloss over when someone says "n factorial"

That's one of best parts!

[SCOUT]

You are correct you have to do a posting - like run an ad in the Chronicle of Higher Ed, but there can be dozens of qualified US citizens who apply and you can still hire the one who needs the H1-B. I don't know if the bureaucrats make a distinction between merely qualified and most qualified. Certainly, anyone who hires an H1-B should be able to articulate why the person they hired is more qualified than other applicants.

Hiring someone using an H1-B visa is a royal pain. It costs thousands of dollars, to the employer, and isn't necessarily guaranteed. They issue a certain amount of visas a year and start disclosing their decisions on October 1st. If you are willing to put up the extra $1,000 for premium processing then you get to know ahead of time and can likely start work on October 1st instead of some arbitrary date.

You do indeed need to demonstrate that the skills that are being brought to the US are not available among the general population through the use of ads, questionnaires, and of course the ICE application forms.

If unemployment rises, the stringency of foreign workers increases. This increase can affect those that have been living and working in the US to the point where a software developer who has significantly contributed to the creation of software product could be deported because their profile no longer meets the requirements. This happened to an employee of mine after 4 years in the states.

The irony is that the people I have dealt with have spent thousands of dollars, hundreds (and in some cases thousands) of hours trying to find a way to live the American dream. It is a shame that their efforts are denied while those who break the law are rewarded.

[Leroy Lizard]

the question is moot because ability to gain legal residence is routine in higher ed.

You're wrong. A prof could be a registered Communist. Did you think about that?

Again, if a prof entered illegally into the U.S., the university would not hire him. Your notion that a university will hire professors with no regard to legal residency is total bull****.

Why you brought this up in the first place is a mystery. I see no relevance to the issue of illegal immigration.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Hiring someone using an H1-B visa is a royal pain. It costs thousands of dollars, to the employer, and isn't necessarily guaranteed. They issue a certain amount of visas a year and start disclosing their decisions on October 1st. If you are willing to put up the extra $1,000 for premium processing then you get to know ahead of time and can likely start work on October 1st instead of some arbitrary date.

You do indeed need to demonstrate that the skills that are being brought to the US are not available among the general population through the use of ads, questionnaires, and of course the ICE application forms.


Scout, Higher Ed used to be under a cap, but no longer. Higher Ed is exempt from the cap. There are upfront application fees and other expenses, but not significantly more than what it costs to hire a good coyote.

I'm not sure about outside higher ed, but inside higher ed the most common thing that gets flagged by the gov't bureaucrats is the salary. They'll tell you "you gotta raise the salary to $x." You might even have a tenured topologist who gets pissed off because an untenured statistian with an H-1B makes more money. Most universities have a staff person with international student and faculty expertise. So they know how to handle the paperwork to satisfy the feds.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

You're wrong. A prof could be a registered Communist. Did you think about that?

Again, if a prof entered illegally into the U.S., the university would not hire him. Your notion that a university will hire professors with no regard to legal residency is total bull****.

Why you brought this up in the first place is a mystery. I see no relevance to the issue of illegal immigration.

Lizard, you brought the scenario of illegal longhorns taking your prob/stat class at OU. But here's the deal: If OU wants to allow longhorns, however despicable they may be, to transfer to OU to take your outstanding class, neither the feds nor the Oklahoma legislature will try to block it. They won't say, "Sorry, you can only admit 60 Longhorns, but of course you can allow as many Jayhawks as you want."

The relevance boils down to the issue of reasonable legal pathways for free markets to work.

If your prob/stat course is so outstanding, OU might even pay you to teach an overload.

[badger]

Coburn talked about Obama's enforcement of immigration here in Tulsa this morning.

Link (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=262&articleid=20100708_262_0_hrimgs850608)

Coburn's probably right, but it's not like Obama needs the voters for another few years.

[delhalew]

"Any politician who tells you he can't control the border doesn't deserve to be in Washington," Coburn said.

One of a million ways our reps disregard their oath of office. They should be brought up on charges when they step off the plane back home.

[SicEmBaylor]

"Any politician who tells you he can't control the border doesn't deserve to be in Washington," Coburn said.

One of a million ways our reps disregard their oath of office. They should be brought up on charges when they step off the plane back home.

They absolutely should.

There's a book you should read if you haven't already. It's called, "The American Democrat and Other Political Writings" by James Fenimore Cooper (who wrote the Leatherstocking Tales). The guy was the epitome of a small (r) republican. It's just a fantastic book of American political philosophy.

He suggests that ANY member of Congress who so much as speaks in favor of an act or piece of legislation that is unconstitutional (and let me tell you he has a strict interpretation of what constitutes a constitutional act) should be stripped of their office and possibly even legally prosecuted.

I'm with you though -- anyone who takes the oath to uphold and defend the Constitution should be removed from office the very first time they fail to do so...which shouldn't take long.

[Okla-homey]

They absolutely should.

There's a book you should read if you haven't already. It's called, "The American Democrat and Other Political Writings" by James Fenimore Cooper (who wrote the Leatherstocking Tales). The guy was the epitome of a small (r) republican. It's just a fantastic book of American political philosophy.

He suggests that ANY member of Congress who so much as speaks in favor of an act or piece of legislation that is unconstitutional (and let me tell you he has a strict interpretation of what constitutes a constitutional act) should be stripped of their office and possibly even legally prosecuted.

I'm with you though -- anyone who takes the oath to uphold and defend the Constitution should be removed from office the very first time they fail to do so...which shouldn't take long.

The problem is Sic, reasonable people can and do disagree on what the Constitution says and means. Given any three constitutional scholars are liable to have four different opinions on the constitutionality of a thing, your little test is an impractical non-starter.

Also troubling, is the infringment of a person's (be he a Congressman or regular joe) First Amendment right to free speech. Do you even read the stuff you write?
He suggests that ANY member of Congress who so much as speaks in favor of an act or piece of legislation that is unconstitutional (and let me tell you he has a strict interpretation of what constitutes a constitutional act) should be stripped of their office and possibly even legally prosecuted.:eek: :eek: :eek:

Sounds Third Reich-y to me. Moreover, THAT'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL!

[delhalew]

The problem is Sic, reasonable people can and do disagree on what the Constitution says and means. Given any three constitutional scholars are liable to have four different opinions on the constitutionality of a thing, your little test is an impractical non-starter.

Also troubling, is the infringment of a person's (be he a Congressman or regular joe) First Amendment right to free speech. Do you even read the stuff you write? :eek: :eek: :eek:

Sounds Third Reich-y to me. Moreover, THAT'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL!

The only reason you can get so many different interpretations is because you have folks wanting to stretch the constitution to fit their agenda.

As far as speaking in favor a measure that is unconstitutional, a person could do this all day long if were not for swearing an oath to do the opposite.

[badger]

Ah, the Constitution... isn't it open to interpretation, though? Isn't that why we have a Supreme Court? :D

Ah, I feel a Simpsons moment coming on...

Boy: Hey, who left all this garbage lying on the steps of Congress?
Amendment: I'm not garbage.
I'm an amendment to be
Yes, an amendment to be
And I'm hoping that they'll ratify me
There's a lot of flag burners
Who have got too much freedom
I wanna make it legal
For policemen
To beat 'em
'Cause there's limits to our liberties
'Least I hope and pray that there are
'Cause those liberal freaks go too far.
Boy: But why can't we just make a law against flag burning?
Amendment: Because that law would be unconstitutional. But if we changed the Constitution...
Boy: Then we could make all sorts of crazy laws!
Amendment: Now you're catching on!
Boy: But what if they say you're not good enough to be in the Constitution?
Amendment: Then I'll destroy all opposition to me
And I'll make Ted Kennedy pay
If he fights back
I'll say that he's gay
Big Fat Guy: Good news, Amendment! They ratified 'ya. You're in the U.S. Constitution!
Amendment: Oh, yeah! ... door's open, boys!
Bomb: Wooooooot! woot woot woot woot!

[delhalew]

The Supreme Court does not exist to re-interpret the Constitution. Is is merely a check against the executive and legislative branches.
(edit) There is also the matter of trade disputes involving interstate commerce and state and local issues that get run all the way up the flagpole.
The amendment process is the only route for changing the Constitution.

[Leroy Lizard]

Lizard, you brought the scenario of illegal longhorns taking your prob/stat class at OU. But here's the deal: If OU wants to allow longhorns, however despicable they may be, to transfer to OU to take your outstanding class, neither the feds nor the Oklahoma legislature will try to block it.

Changes in admission requirements require state-level (not just university-level) approval. If you argue otherwise you will lose.

[Leroy Lizard]

The only reason you can get so many different interpretations is because you have folks wanting to stretch the constitution to fit their agenda.

Bingo!

[SicEmBaylor]

The problem is Sic, reasonable people can and do disagree on what the Constitution says and means. Given any three constitutional scholars are liable to have four different opinions on the constitutionality of a thing, your little test is an impractical non-starter.

Also troubling, is the infringment of a person's (be he a Congressman or regular joe) First Amendment right to free speech. Do you even read the stuff you write? :eek: :eek: :eek:

Sounds Third Reich-y to me. Moreover, THAT'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL!

First, the difference here is that the member of Congress took an oath to uphold the Constitution. Your average citizen did not. I'll give you that locking them up is unreasonable, but stripping them of their office certainly is not. If you failed to uphold your oath in the military would you not have been discharged?

Also, this business about it being impossible to determine true Constitutional intent is mostly bull****. It's akin to moral relativism and the wishy-washy liberal concept of no absolute truth. Interpreting the intent of the Constitution is not hard. What's hard is finding a judge who can set aside his or her own political bias. The Constitution is not hard to understand. The Federalist Papers are not hard to understand. Madison's journal notes from the Philadelphia Convention debates are not hard to understand. What is difficult is wading through 200+ years of judicial review that have put layer upon layer of unnecessary complexity atop every word and clause in the document.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Also, this business about it being impossible to determine true Constitutional intent is mostly bull****. It's akin to moral relativism and the wishy-washy liberal concept of no absolute truth. Interpreting the intent of the Constitution is not hard. What's hard is finding a judge who can set aside his or her own political bias. The Constitution is not hard to understand. The Federalist Papers are not hard to understand. Madison's journal notes from the Philadelphia Convention debates are not hard to understand. What is difficult is wading through 200+ years of judicial review that have put layer upon layer of unnecessary complexity atop every word and clause in the document.

During the confirmation hearings on Kagan, the pubs did not ask her a single question about the judicial activism of the court with respect to sodomy laws.

In 1986 the court held a state law prohibiting gay sodomy was constitutional.

In 2003 the court held a state law prohibiting gay sodomy was unconstitutional.

"Their [a gay couple] right to liberty under the Due Process Clause gives them the full right to engage in their conduct without intervention of the government," wrote Justice Anthony Kennedy.

[Leroy Lizard]

During the confirmation hearings on Kagan, the pubs did not ask her a single question about the judicial activism of the court with respect to sodomy laws.

Probably didn't want anyone thinking they were gay.

[AlbqSooner]

Such laws will be enacted by Congress and signed into law by the President on the same day monkeys fly out of my colon whistling "Dixie."

C'mon Honey, you know good and well that "Dixie" is one of the few songs that monkeys simply cannot be taught to whistle.:D