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View Full Version : Senator KYL (AZ) said no border security until we have Amnesty !



RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/21/2010, 03:08 PM
He said that in a meeting with the pres., Obama said he won't secure the borders until Amnest is granted for those would-be voters, just waiting to become legal and vote. White House says Kyl is lying.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=37608

Serge Ibaka
6/21/2010, 03:15 PM
Securing the borders is a pipe dream.

How do you secure that border when there is so much incentive for poor Mexican people to come to the American side? It's impossible. If you want increased border security or a big-freaking fence, look at the statistics that followed Operation Gate-Keeper in Southern California: increased border security actually increased the prevalence of illegal Mexicans in Southern California.

And with that said, Latino voters tend to vote fairly conservatively anyway (against their interests but "for" their values). Kyl is using scare-tactics, and he is a liar.

ndpruitt03
6/21/2010, 03:22 PM
Amnesty will be just as big a mess if not a bigger mess. If we didn't have a welfare system we wouldn't have the problems we have with illegal immigration. A welfare system can't sustain continuous growth.

Serge Ibaka
6/21/2010, 03:25 PM
Welfare doesn't cause illegal immigration in the United States: the abundance of jobs so close to a desolate, 3rd world region does. That was a weird response.

ndpruitt03
6/21/2010, 03:26 PM
I know it doesn't cause it. A welfare state just can't handle the raising population. That's all I said. You can't have both a welfare state and open boarders.

Serge Ibaka
6/21/2010, 03:29 PM
Oops on the misreading.

And, well, that's a whole-different discussion.

Okla-homey
6/21/2010, 03:53 PM
Welfare doesn't cause illegal immigration in the United States: the abundance of jobs so close to a desolate, 3rd world region does. That was a weird response.

zackly. Put yourself in Chuey's shoes. Stay in Mexico and eak out a bare survival eating dirt in your mud casa, or sneak over and lay brick in Estados Unidos earning enough to feed and clothe yourself and your family while residing in a building with central air and heat, safe running water, and cervezas in your fridge. No brainer. Not to mention free public schools for your kiddoes.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/21/2010, 04:04 PM
Whitehouse calling Kyl a liar. Can the R's grow a set, and fight back, or sit still , or even capitulate, like scared R's...(rabbits)

Dio
6/21/2010, 04:05 PM
Mmmmm, cervezas in the fridge...

Serge Ibaka
6/21/2010, 04:07 PM
Well, since Obama and the left would have absolutely nothing to gain from the amnesty of Mexican migrants, I bet Republican leadership does nothing about Kyl's testimony. Because, well, it just doesn't make sense.

Also, I too am in favor of increased cervezas in all of our fridges.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/21/2010, 04:12 PM
Well, since Obama and the left would have absolutely nothing to gain from the amnesty of Mexican migrants, I bet Republican leadership does nothing about Kyl's testimony. Because, well, it just doesn't make sense.

Also, I too am in favor of increased cervezas in all of our fridges.Could you have already had a few?

Serge Ibaka
6/21/2010, 04:17 PM
Could you have already had a few?

Pay your taxes! Help build our roads and provide our children with quality and equal educations!

A chicken in every pot and seis-cervezas in every fridge!

Thank you, citizen!

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/21/2010, 04:25 PM
Kyl used to be for amnesty, like McCain. In time for his R Primary campaign, McCain is now against amnesty, and wants to "build the dang fence", haha. God hep us if we have to re-elect McCain.

Hell, God Hep US anyway. We need some good things to happen!

Serge Ibaka
6/21/2010, 04:30 PM
Kyl used to be for amnesty, like McCain. In time for his R Primary campaign, McCain is now against amnesty, and wants to "build the dang fence", haha. God hep us if we have to re-elect McCain.

If McCain changed his approach to immigration (amnesty), is there a possibility that this was simply to pander to the conservative (racist) voting base? Ditto with Kyle. Just a thought.

Also, any politician who has reasonable access to the facts (they all do) and is still in favor of spending tax-payer money on any stupid fence is a politicizing dummy. Any fence-building measure is supremely political and not pragmatic, and the politicians in favor of building a fence know it too.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/21/2010, 04:38 PM
If McCain changed his approach to immigration (amnesty), is there a possibility that this was simply to pander to the conservative (racist) voting base? Ditto with Kyle.

What's your real, non-troll handle here?

Serge Ibaka
6/21/2010, 04:39 PM
What's your real, non-troll handle here?

Serge Ibaka. I'm not trolling. I'm merely joining the post-community.

Leroy Lizard
6/21/2010, 04:41 PM
Well, since Obama and the left would have absolutely nothing to gain from the amnesty of Mexican migrants...

:confused:

He's on stuff far stronger than cerveza.

Serge Ibaka
6/21/2010, 04:44 PM
:confused:

He's on stuff far stronger than cerveza.

Oh, you're just jealous! And at any rate, I'm serious! Look up the recent voting records of latino-Americans. They vote right-of-average.

Mexican-amnesty would favor conservative politicians. Just because most Mexican Americans should vote for Democratic candidates doesn't mean that they always do.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/21/2010, 04:52 PM
:confused:

He's on stuff far stronger than cerveza.Pulling the race card was a nice touch, huh?

Serge Ibaka
6/21/2010, 04:55 PM
Pulling the race card was a nice touch, huh?

Oh, pish posh applesauce. I didn't mean that all Conservative voters are racist. I simply meant that many white Conservative voters have an irrational fear of dark people (Don't play dumb! You can see this in the discourse surrounding the Arizona laws and elsewhere). Politicians, in supporting anti-immigration measures that they know are useless (like building a stupid fence), are clearly pandering to this racist-discourse of fear. They want votes.

yermom
6/21/2010, 04:56 PM
What's your real, non-troll handle here?

i think it's Sir Chewbacca

Leroy Lizard
6/21/2010, 04:57 PM
Oh, you're just jealous! And at any rate, I'm serious! Look up the recent voting records of latino-Americans. They vote right-of-average.

Mexican-amnesty would favor conservative politicians. Just because most Mexican Americans should vote for Democratic candidates doesn't mean that they always do.


http://www.gallup.com/poll/108532/hispanic-voters-solidly-behind-obama.aspx

yermom
6/21/2010, 04:58 PM
Oh, you're just jealous! And at any rate, I'm serious! Look up the recent voting records of latino-Americans. They vote right-of-average.

Mexican-amnesty would favor conservative politicians. Just because most Mexican Americans should vote for Democratic candidates doesn't mean that they always do.

you mean like the poor people in red states?

Serge Ibaka
6/21/2010, 05:00 PM
http://www.gallup.com/poll/108532/hispanic-voters-solidly-behind-obama.aspx

That's not fair: Obama was a stronger candidate than McCain among almost every demographic. Look, even among conservative Latino voters were split in half.

Look at other elections. Look at party-affiliation.

Serge Ibaka
6/21/2010, 05:00 PM
you mean like the poor people in red states?

Bingo.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/21/2010, 05:12 PM
I didn't mean that all Conservative voters are racist. I simply meant that many white Conservative voters have an irrational fear of dark people (Don't play dumb! You can see this in the discourse surrounding the Arizona laws and elsewhere). Politicians, in supporting anti-immigration measures that they know are useless (like building a stupid fence), are clearly pandering to this racist-discourse of fear. They want votes.I feel reasonably certain that you don't believe those charges for a minute. Nice try, surdo!

Leroy Lizard
6/21/2010, 05:16 PM
That's not fair: Obama was a stronger candidate than McCain among almost every demographic. Look, even among conservative Latino voters were split in half.

Weren't very conservative, were they?


Look at other elections. Look at party-affiliation.

Okay.

The percentage of Hispanic voters in the Democrat party doubles that among Republicans.

http://field.com/fieldpollonline/subscribers/Rls2309.pdf

Here's Arizona:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/azelections/articles/2010/06/08/20100608arizona-immigration-law-backlash.html

51% Democrat to 17% Republican.

Can we dispense with this nonsense now?

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/21/2010, 05:28 PM
Weren't very conservative, were they?



Okay.

The percentage of Hispanic voters in the Democrat party doubles that among Republicans.

http://field.com/fieldpollonline/subscribers/Rls2309.pdf

Here's Arizona:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/azelections/articles/2010/06/08/20100608arizona-immigration-law-backlash.html

51% Democrat to 17% Republican.

Can we dispense with this nonsense now?What's the record for intentional lies in a thread?(bonus points for pulling the race card, and for call ing a senator a liar, when you know deep down he's telling the truth)

ndpruitt03
6/21/2010, 06:20 PM
If anything the far left progressives are racist if anything. You know who will be hurt most by the policies they are pushing right now? The poor people which are primarily some shade of brown people. Like it or not it's not like the left is pro black people either.

The problem with the republican party is that it's not a conservative party right now. It's another wing of the democrat party. The only good thing about it is that it's not really progressive. But I haven't seen that really change outside of a couple races to go to the conservative base it needs to go to. The winners in the California primary would have been democrats not too long ago.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/21/2010, 07:34 PM
If anything the far left progressives are racist if anything. You know who will be hurt most by the policies they are pushing right now? The poor people which are primarily some shade of brown people. Like it or not it's not like the left is pro black people either.

The problem with the republican party is that it's not a conservative party right now. It's another wing of the democrat party. The only good thing about it is that it's not really progressive. But I haven't seen that really change outside of a couple races to go to the conservative base it needs to go to. The winners in the California primary would have been democrats not too long ago.Just don't go brain-dead, and vote for a D, anywhere. Only hope for improvement we have. You know that, don't you?

As long as Obama is the Pres., I think nothing significant will be done to make the border more secure, even if they don't get Amnesty passed.

ndpruitt03
6/21/2010, 08:16 PM
I agree with all that. But as long as the republicans act like they have in recent years I don't see a major change.

SanJoaquinSooner
6/21/2010, 09:43 PM
Hey guys,

What's tonight's topic?

olevetonahill
6/21/2010, 10:01 PM
Hey guys,

What's tonight's topic?

American Chili
Beans ? No Beans ?

olevetonahill
6/21/2010, 10:01 PM
If its No Beans , whats the best way to keep em out ?

diegosooner
6/21/2010, 10:09 PM
If its No Beans , whats the best way to keep em out ?

Have a Mexican fix it. They don't use beans in chili.

diegosooner
6/21/2010, 10:13 PM
but I like my chili either way

Turd_Ferguson
6/21/2010, 10:13 PM
Mexicans make chili?

olevetonahill
6/21/2010, 10:16 PM
Im talkin Merican Chili ya numbnuts:rolleyes:

KC//CRIMSON
6/21/2010, 10:20 PM
American chili is made with bullets and rage!

KC//CRIMSON
6/21/2010, 10:22 PM
What's your real, non-troll handle here?

Who's asking this, you or I Am Right?

sooner59
6/21/2010, 11:52 PM
I don't know about chili, but Ahhnold said that every pizza comes with pepperoni and 9mm bullets on it. If you want mushrooms, he'll staple them to you. If you want something crazy like pineapple, he'll kill you. But if you want pepperoni and 9mm bullets, you've come to the right place....and maybe he will bring you a pizza, maybe he'll break off your arm.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/22/2010, 12:25 AM
Who's asking this, you, or I Am Right?[/I]?Is that an admission?

olevetonahill
6/22/2010, 12:38 AM
So how do we keep those unwanted and undocumented Beans out of Merican chili ?:pop:

Serge Ibaka
6/22/2010, 12:43 AM
Weren't very conservative, were they?



Okay.

The percentage of Hispanic voters in the Democrat party doubles that among Republicans.

http://field.com/fieldpollonline/subscribers/Rls2309.pdf

Here's Arizona:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/azelections/articles/2010/06/08/20100608arizona-immigration-law-backlash.html

51% Democrat to 17% Republican.

Can we dispense with this nonsense now?

Okay, I'll admit that you're right according to the first link. But it leaves out a huge amount of "non-partisan" voters and doesn't tell the whole truth. Like in this link: http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/11/4/203450.shtml. It explains how Bush's platforms made for a close race in 2004 and benefited by ralling Latino support. Still, I was otherwise wrong.

But, back on topic: it's he said/she said between the White House and Kyl. And yeah, I think Kyl is the liar because it is completely senseless. I mean, why would Obama even show his cards like Kyl says--bad politics, right? Plus, nobody has ever really explained what "securing the border" means to me. Both Obama and Kyl know that it's a meaningless, political buzz-word, and in this example, Kyl is using the double-speak to his advantage.


If anything the far left progressives are racist if anything. You know who will be hurt most by the policies they are pushing right now? The poor people which are primarily some shade of brown people. Like it or not it's not like the left is pro black people either.

Which ones?

Otherwise, all the strange fear about the lefties in power and their "not securing the border" is irrational..paranoid even! It's just democracy, dudes.

Also, the best parts of this thread were the parts about cerveza and chile.

btk108
6/22/2010, 01:40 AM
if you're not born here...or immigrated LEGALLY..you don't get to vote. Enough said.

Leroy Lizard
6/22/2010, 02:28 AM
Okay, I'll admit that you're right according to the first link. But it leaves out a huge amount of "non-partisan" voters and doesn't tell the whole truth. Like in this link: http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/11/4/203450.shtml. It explains how Bush's platforms made for a close race in 2004 and benefited by ralling Latino support. Still, I was otherwise wrong.

From the link:


While Gore won 65 percent of the Latino community, holding Bush to a mere 35 percent, Kerry only carried the Hispanic vote by 55-45, paving the way for the Bush victory.

Bush was from Texas and spoke Spanish. More than most Republicans, he reached out to the Hispanic vote, and he still got fewer Hispanic voters than Kerry.

Hispanics are Democrats.

olevetonahill
6/22/2010, 08:15 AM
if you're not born here...or immigrated LEGALLY..you don't get to vote. Enough said.

so then thats a vote for NO BEANS, or a Vote for Legal Beans Only ?:confused:

Crucifax Autumn
6/22/2010, 08:50 AM
I'll stick to jumping beans.

olevetonahill
6/22/2010, 09:14 AM
I'll stick to jumping beans.

Hell you will JUMP anything :P

85Sooner
6/22/2010, 09:32 AM
Oh, pish posh applesauce. I didn't mean that all Conservative voters are racist. I simply meant that many white Conservative voters have an irrational fear of dark people (Don't play dumb! You can see this in the discourse surrounding the Arizona laws and elsewhere). Politicians, in supporting anti-immigration measures that they know are useless (like building a stupid fence), are clearly pandering to this racist-discourse of fear. They want votes.

Yeah......... right......

Leroy Lizard
6/22/2010, 09:55 AM
if you're not born here...or immigrated LEGALLY..you don't get to vote. Enough said.

That isn't the issue.

OklahomaTuba
6/22/2010, 10:41 AM
Thankfully Dear Leader has decided to wage war on the State of Arizona...

Mexican Gangs Maintain Permanent Lookout Bases in Hills of Arizona

Mexican drug cartels have set up shop on American soil, maintaining lookout bases in strategic locations in the hills of southern Arizona from which their scouts can monitor every move made by law enforcement officials, federal agents tell Fox News. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/22/mexican-gangs-permanent-lookouts-parkland/

KC//CRIMSON
6/22/2010, 10:48 AM
Slow down, Tuba. You're gonna get blisters on it....

TheHumanAlphabet
6/22/2010, 11:43 AM
Now we have cartel scouts on the high ridges in AZ looking out for police and ICE and BP agents. We need to shut this crap down, bring the National Guard to reclaim the high ground and keep them there.

TheHumanAlphabet
6/22/2010, 11:45 AM
Serge, by your comments, I can tell you are intellectulally challenged.

yermom
6/22/2010, 11:54 AM
Now we have cartel scouts on the high ridges in AZ looking out for police and ICE and BP agents. We need to shut this crap down, bring the National Guard to reclaim the high ground and keep them there.

permanent bases sound easy to find...

Serge Ibaka
6/22/2010, 12:45 PM
Hispanics are Democrats.

Yep. This is what I said. I read the article too before I linked it.


Yeah......... right......

All of you who are blasting my comments about racism are total silly-billies. If you think it's actually possible to consider the national discussion about Mexican immigration apart from issues of race and culture, then you are terribly naive. You're all taking a Colbert-like stance ("I don't see race; people tell me that I'm white, and I believe them"), and it's cute. I'm not necessarily saying that you, Republican-voter, are a racist. I am saying that fearful, racial undertones plague the discussion, and this phenomenon must be dealt with separately.

Also, you discount my posts on this thread while conveniently forgetting my main premise: that "securing the border" is an empty and meaningless political buzz word--nobody can tell me what it means! When politicians employ the term, they are employing rhetoric that recalls the politics-of-fear that I just noted above. Kyl did this when he pretended to expose some secret, back-handed, White House plot; McCain did this when he said he was ready to "build a dang fence" (or however the quote went). Both Kyl and McCain know that "securing the border" is a meaningless phrase, and they are using the idea to their political gain. C'mon, ambiguous political rhetoric isn't a new concept, dudes.


Serge, by your comments, I can tell you are intellectulally challenged.

Alphabet, by your comments (and your signature), I can tell that you have an irrational fear of people who think differently than you do.

Also, I'm not "somebody's troll," or whatever you're all suggesting. I'm just a dude who is typing things on soonerfans.com.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/22/2010, 01:16 PM
Also, I'm not "somebody's troll," or whatever you're all suggesting. I'm just a dude who is typing things on soonerfans.com.A dude who can't come to grips with what "illegal" means, and the disaster that is being caused by massive illegal, undocumented or falsely documented entry into our country. A dude resorting to name-calling(white folks opposed to illegal entry = "racists"), and who claims that border security CAN'T be vastly improved. The reason(s) for your saying these things is unclear, but you do say them.

Serge Ibaka
6/22/2010, 01:33 PM
A dude who can't come to grips with what "illegal" means, and the disaster that is being caused by massive illegal, undocumented or falsely documented entry into our country. A dude resorting to name-calling(white folks opposed to illegal entry = "racists"), and who claims that border security CAN'T be vastly improved. The reason(s) for your saying these things is unclear, but you do say them.

Oh, please! Point to any place within this thread that I displayed an inadaquet understanding of "illegal." I never said that I supported the illegal-immigration of Mexican peoples into U.S.; I never said that I supported amnesty-measures. You're putting words into my mouth and shifting the discussion in a way that suits you best. And while I admit that illegal immigration is a serious issue today, I still don't know what can be done about it. The U.S. has stepped up massive security efforts before (see: Operation Gatekeeper), and it has always failed--there is too much space, and there is WAY too much incentive for Mexicans to enter this country illegally. I don't know what "securing the border" really means, but everybody keeps insisting on it (even the politicians who know that it really has no meaning)!

I'm sorry that I first misrepresented my comments about racism proliferating throughout the immigration-debate--I think this is plain to see however, and if you read my previous post, you can see that I described this more plainly. Still, I don't mean to say that all Republicans are racists, and indeed, racism is prevalant within all demographics (and on both sides of the aisle). But you can't say race doesn't play a part in all of this because it does.

OklahomaTuba
6/22/2010, 01:43 PM
But you can't say race doesn't play a part in all of this because it does.Hardly. Protecting the border isn't about race, at all. You're the only one that seems obsessed with race in this conversation.

Serge Ibaka
6/22/2010, 01:49 PM
Hardly. Protecting the border isn't about race, at all. You're the only one that seems obsessed with race in this conversation.

Sure, in the purest, ideal-state of the discussion. But if you can't perceive how race and culture play a big part in National discourse, then either you are niave or you're trying far too hard to not see what is plainly apparent.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/22/2010, 02:08 PM
There's talk of Amnesty by Executive Order, anyway, so arguments for legal behavior is sort of passe, now.

Serge Ibaka
6/22/2010, 02:12 PM
Oh jeeze, you didn't learn anything from my whole Kyl's-claims-make-no-sense rant, didja? :(

But you're right, mindless fear is a whole lot easier. I understand.

SECRET OVAL-OFFICE PLOTS...AND DOGS WITH BEES IN THEIR MOUTHS AND WHEN THEY BARK THEY SHOOT BEES AT YOU!

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/22/2010, 02:20 PM
Oh jeeze, you didn't learn anything from my whole Kyl's-claims-make-no-sense rant, didja? :(

But you're right, mindless fear is a whole lot easier. I understand.

SECRET OVAL-OFFICE PLOTS...AND DOGS WITH BEES IN THEIR MOUTHS AND WHEN THEY BARK THEY SHOOT BEES AT YOU!Mindful fear is necessary with our new totalitarian govt. Happy for you, and your Transformers.

Serge Ibaka
6/22/2010, 02:30 PM
lol.

I fear you, secret liberal agenda! You're super, duper scary!!!!!111

85Sooner
6/22/2010, 04:51 PM
Is it me or does serge phraseology sound familiar....... say from the west coast?

Hows your marksmanship?

Leroy Lizard
6/23/2010, 04:01 PM
Sure, in the purest, ideal-state of the discussion. But if you can't perceive how race and culture play a big part in National discourse, then either you are niave or you're trying far too hard to not see what is plainly apparent.

I'm sure it does, but I'm not sure who initiates it. Who are the real racists here?

Conservatives, for opposing illegal immigration because the perpetrators are Hispanic?

Liberals, for opposing efforts to curb illegal immigration because the perpetrators are Hispanic?

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/23/2010, 05:21 PM
I'm sure it does, but I'm not sure who initiates it. Who are the real racists here?

Conservatives, for opposing illegal immigration because the perpetrators are Hispanic?

Liberals, for opposing efforts to curb illegal immigration because the perpetrators are Hispanic?I disagree. Illegal entry is opposed becauseit's illegal, and out of any control. People are undocumented and falsely documented. They are overburdening our welfare system, public(free)education and medical systems, and committing crimes. Not to mention the possibility of terrorism. They aren't assimilating into our culture, and there is a likelihood, if given amnesty, of voting for those who wish to perpetuate the welfare state, and destruction of the private sector.

Leroy Lizard
6/23/2010, 05:56 PM
I disagree. Illegal entry is opposed becauseit's illegal, and out of any control. People are undocumented and falsely documented. They are overburdening our welfare system, public(free)education and medical systems, and committing crimes. Not to mention the possibility of terrorism. They aren't assimilating into our culture, and there is a likelihood, if given amnesty, of voting for those who wish to perpetuate the welfare state, and destruction of the private sector.

I fully agree. Consider my questions for sake of argument.

Serge Ibaka
6/24/2010, 03:45 PM
I disagree. Illegal entry is opposed becauseit's illegal, and out of any control. People are undocumented and falsely documented. They are overburdening our welfare system, public(free)education and medical systems, and committing crimes. Not to mention the possibility of terrorism. They aren't assimilating into our culture, and there is a likelihood, if given amnesty, of voting for those who wish to perpetuate the welfare state, and destruction of the private sector.

Terrifying! And I agree: foreign aliens should only be given access to these United States if they agree with my politics. That's the American way!

But really, if we want to talk economics, increased anti-immigration institutions are probably more costly than the status-quo: border patrol and immigration/detention offices are expensive (and ineffective), and they might cost more than just giving these people access to emergency rooms. Plus, businesses lose customers, and states lose sales-taxes. I contend that this is an irrelevent discussion to begin with, but RLIMC prompted it.

Leroy Lizard
6/24/2010, 03:57 PM
Terrifying!

Actually, that may be the biggest problem we face. A lack of assimilation can end up generating cliques, then gangs. The Mob depended on a lack of assimilation to control Italian-American neighborhoods. The gangs are hard to combat because the people that belong to them (and their victims) act like they are living in a foreign land (Sicily).

Think of it this way: People immigrate to the U.S. because they perceive living here as better. The "way we do things" is largely responsible for the better environment, which can vanish if immigrants drag their own cultural practices around with them.

As I've said before, I once considered emigrating to New Zealand. If I had done so, I would have become the biggest fan of New Zealand and its customs around. It's the respectful thing to do.


But really, if we want to talk economics, increased anti-immigration institutions are probably more costly than the status-quo: border patrol and immigration/detention offices are expensive (and ineffective), and they might cost more than just giving these people access to emergency rooms. Plus, businesses lose customers, and states lose sales-taxes. I contend that this is an irrelevent discussion to begin with, but RLIMC prompted it.

The costs of illegal immigration far transcend free emergency health care. The costs of educating children who cannot speak English is very high. Money that could be spent on better educational programs is instead diverted to train teachers to teach foreign speakers.

tommieharris91
6/24/2010, 04:01 PM
But really, if we want to talk economics, increased anti-immigration institutions are probably more costly than the status-quo: border patrol and immigration/detention offices are expensive (and ineffective), and they might cost more than just giving these people access to emergency rooms. Plus, businesses lose customers, and states lose sales-taxes. I contend that this is an irrelevent discussion to begin with, but RLIMC prompted it.

Don't feed the trolls.

Serge Ibaka
6/24/2010, 04:02 PM
But they're so fun!

But, c'mon, Leroy. I don't think the Godfather is a very good basis for ideas regarding modern-immigration. Can I at least use this as proof of my earlier-submissions about the way that race and culture play an integrel part of this topic?

soonerbrat
6/24/2010, 04:29 PM
Oh, pish posh applesauce. I didn't mean that all Conservative voters are racist. I simply meant that many white Conservative voters have an irrational fear of dark people (Don't play dumb! You can see this in the discourse surrounding the Arizona laws and elsewhere). Politicians, in supporting anti-immigration measures that they know are useless (like building a stupid fence), are clearly pandering to this racist-discourse of fear. They want votes.

i have an irrational fear of clowns and canadians and people in general being here illegally and using up resources that should be reserved for our own citizens. I don't care what color they are.

Serge Ibaka
6/24/2010, 04:33 PM
i have an irrational fear of clowns and canadians and people in general being here illegally and using up resources that should be reserved for our own citizens. I don't care what color they are.

Well, that's just fine. But, I promise you: of the very many people concerned about this, many would be much less concerned if the illegal immigrants were white and blonde and spoke without any trace of a foreign accent. But alas...

Leroy Lizard
6/24/2010, 04:38 PM
But, c'mon, Leroy. I don't think the Godfather is a very good basis for ideas regarding modern-immigration.

C'mon, Serge, be reasonable. I never said that the problem with non-assimilation was relegated solely to displaced Sicilians and that we should use a movie to formulate immigration policies. (I never even mentioned the movie.)

Leroy Lizard
6/24/2010, 04:42 PM
Well, that's just fine. But, I promise you: of the very many people concerned about this, many would be much less concerned if the illegal immigrants were white and blonde and spoke without any trace of a foreign accent. But alas...

Oklahomans were white and didn't speak with a trace of a foreign accent. And many Californians reacted very much like Arizona is doing now and for many of the same reasons.

The difference is that Oklahomans were American citizens and moved to California legally.

I think it's funny that California is raising such a stink about Arizona's law given its own history with the Oklahoma migration.

Serge Ibaka
6/24/2010, 04:45 PM
Oklahomans were white and didn't speak with a trace of a foreign accent. And many Californians reacted very much like Arizona is doing now and for many of the same reasons.

The difference is that Oklahomans were American citizens and moved to California legally.

No way! But what's that have to do with people being afraid of brown Spanish-speakers today?

Leroy Lizard
6/24/2010, 05:06 PM
No way! But what's that have to do with people being afraid of brown Spanish-speakers today?

The fact that illegal aliens speak a foreign language IS a problem. Don't believe me? Logan (Utah) City School District spends $850,000 a year on its English as a Second Language program.


Additionally, the district has received about $225,000 from the state of Utah each year from a Student Success Block Grant, which is designated for districts to use in any way they choose to enhance student learning. The district has put that money toward its ESL programs.

Read that again, Serge. The grant gives the district $225,000 to use in any way it wants to increase student learning. And it uses the money how? To teach English learners.

http://news.hjnews.com/news/article_ffe8b702-42db-5ee0-afd3-c80f49bccd2a.html

And this is a district in Utah that has an ESL population of 25%. That is nothing like many schools in Arizona, where the ESL population can approach 80%.

But in liberal la-la land, money is infinite in supply.

EnragedOUfan
6/24/2010, 05:10 PM
What's your real, non-troll handle here?

So if someone hasn't posted 20,000 plus times, are they considered a troll? I've read this site since late 2008 after I came across it.......This site is the best I've found in regards to Oklahoma.........I read the heck out of it daily, but I don't post 10-15 times a day. A troll is someone who joins to talk trash and run, not a Sooner who engages in a good conversation......

KC//CRIMSON
6/24/2010, 05:16 PM
I think it's funny that California is raising such a stink about Arizona's law given its own history with the Oklahoma migration.


Kinda like Americans when it comes to immigrants/immigration in general, huh?

Serge Ibaka
6/24/2010, 05:18 PM
Kinda like Americans when it comes to immigrants/immigration in general, huh?

^^this.

Leroy Lizard
6/24/2010, 05:21 PM
^^this.

Except that we are focusing here on ILLEGAL immigration. Legal immigration is not the issue here.

KC//CRIMSON
6/24/2010, 05:27 PM
Ask the Native Americans if the immigrants were illegal.

Leroy Lizard
6/24/2010, 05:31 PM
Ask the Native Americans if the immigrants were illegal.

We took the land by force, which pre-empts laws. That's why Mexico has no legitimate claim on California and why the British today have no claim on the 13 colonies.

Serge Ibaka
6/24/2010, 05:34 PM
We took the land by force, which pre-empts laws. That's why Mexico has no legitimate claim on California and why the British today have no claim on the 13 colonies.

We should probably just invade Mexico and then there wouldn't be any issue, yeah?

Get your guns ready, boys!

KC//CRIMSON
6/24/2010, 05:35 PM
We took the land by force, which pre-empts laws. That's why Mexico has no legitimate claim on California and why the British today have no claim on the 13 colonies.

Hmmmmmm, I wonder if rape and murder was a bad thing to do, before, you know, laws?

tommieharris91
6/24/2010, 05:35 PM
I'm wondering if Serge Ibaka is LL's troll...

Frozen Sooner
6/24/2010, 05:36 PM
For what it's worth, Serge doesn't trip any IP duplication alarms.

Serge Ibaka
6/24/2010, 05:37 PM
For what it's worth, Serge doesn't trip any IP duplication alarms.

SERGE IBAKA FTW!

KC//CRIMSON
6/24/2010, 05:39 PM
For what it's worth, Serge doesn't trip any IP duplication alarms.


That's code for SUCK IT HARD POSSE!!!!!!!

OUthunder
6/24/2010, 05:40 PM
I agree with all that. But as long as the republicans act like they have in recent years I don't see a major change.

The Republican leaders we have now are simply moderate liberals. There are few true conservative politicians left in this country.

Frozen Sooner
6/24/2010, 05:40 PM
Most of the people accusing you of being a troll likely think you're my troll, though, so that's probably not going to help.

KC//CRIMSON
6/24/2010, 05:41 PM
crap.

Leroy Lizard
6/24/2010, 05:44 PM
We should probably just invade Mexico and then there wouldn't be any issue, yeah?

Get your guns ready, boys!

That's the way it works. We just have to be able to withstand the consequences for taking violent action and be willing to justify it in our own minds.

But why would we want to anyway? Don't we have enough problems already?

Leroy Lizard
6/24/2010, 05:45 PM
Hmmmmmm, I wonder if rape and murder was a bad thing to do, before, you know, laws?

This issue has nothing to do with rape and murder. Stay on track.

KC//CRIMSON
6/24/2010, 05:48 PM
This issue has nothing to do with rape and murder. Stay on track.

You're right, it just has to do with right and wrong. Mostly wrong on your part, as per usual.

KC//CRIMSON
6/24/2010, 05:50 PM
Get your guns ready, boys!


Careful what you tell this board to do. They love them some guns and ammo.

Leroy Lizard
6/24/2010, 05:56 PM
You're right, it just has to do with right and wrong. Mostly wrong on your part, as per usual.

What's right? What's wrong? We took California from Mexico. Was that right or wrong? We formally declared our independence from England in 1776. Was that right or wrong?

The answer is given by the winner based on its own justifications. Or one could say that there is no correct answer and that the concept of right/wrong is moot. Your choice.

Crucifax Autumn
6/25/2010, 04:52 AM
I use my gun every chance I get.

Curly Bill
6/25/2010, 07:10 AM
We should probably just invade Mexico and then there wouldn't be any issue, yeah?

Get your guns ready, boys!

Will you teach us how to make those 1,000 yard shots?

TheHumanAlphabet
6/25/2010, 08:53 AM
We should probably just invade Mexico and then there wouldn't be any issue, yeah?

Get your guns ready, boys!

I'd be for building in a 10 mile buffer between the current borders with land mines and tall fences.

Serge Ibaka
6/25/2010, 12:32 PM
I'd be for building in a 10 mile buffer between the current borders with land mines and tall fences.

You're serious, yeah? Shame on you.

TheHumanAlphabet
6/25/2010, 12:37 PM
You're serious, yeah? Shame on you.

Why? Protecting our border!

SanJoaquinSooner
6/25/2010, 01:43 PM
Hardly. Protecting the border isn't about race, at all. You're the only one that seems obsessed with race in this conversation.

1. It is about nationality. A Canadian citizen can legally walk through a port of entry into the U.S. without a visa. An American citizen can legally walk through a port of entry into Mexico without a visa. But a Mexican citizen cannot legally walk through a port of entry into the U.S. without a visa.

2. The level of Border Patrol agents has increased from less than 4,000 in 1990 to approximately 20,000 today, a 400 percent increase in 20 years. Yet as these personnel increases have made it more difficult to enter the country illegally, more people have decided to stay in the United States once they make it successfully across the border.

3. There are approximately 400,000 to 500,000 deportation hearings per year.

4. The best way to reduce illegal immigration is to provide more legal avenues to work in the United States.

5. Under the proposed immigration reform, the Social Security Administration would begin issuing biometric Social Security cards. These cards will be fraud-resistant, tamper-resistant, wear-resistant, and machine-readable social security cards containing a photograph and an electronically coded micro-processing chip which possesses a unique biometric identifier for the authorized card-bearer. A worker would no longer be able to use his cousin's SSN.

Leroy Lizard
6/25/2010, 01:52 PM
4. The best way to reduce illegal immigration is to provide more legal avenues to work in the United States.

I would normally agree, and I think a solution is possible. The problem is the ole' "given in an inch, take a mile" syndrome. As we find ways to bring them in legally, those on the Left capitalize on the increased power of a future voting bloc.

So I propose a six-month visa for any able-bodied Mexican willing to work. If they don't work, they go home. They have to be of legal age to work or no entry, which rules out kids under 16. (And kids 18 and under could only work in the summer.) Pregnant women expecting within the six-month stay are not allowed in either.

Mexican workers get money they can take back to Mexico. Their kids are no longer a drain on our school and health programs.

OklahomaTuba
6/25/2010, 01:52 PM
1. It is about nationality. A Canadian citizen can legally walk through a port of entry into the U.S. without a visa. An American citizen can legally walk through a port of entry into Mexico without a visa. But a Mexican citizen cannot legally walk through a port of entry into the U.S. without a visa.

Are you really trying to compare mexico to canada?

yermom
6/25/2010, 01:54 PM
yeah, they already apologized for Bryan Adams

OklahomaTuba
6/25/2010, 01:55 PM
So I propose a six-month visa for any able-bodied Mexican willing to work.

Great, so now we have a bunch of non-American's stealing what ever jobs are left?

No thanks, i'd rather leave those jobs to the millions of American's who have been hoped and changed into unemployment. Screw the liberals need for new voters, let the mexicans/canadians, etc go back home and damn job there.

Leroy Lizard
6/25/2010, 01:59 PM
Great, so now we have a bunch of non-American's stealing what ever jobs are left?

Don't worry, Tuba. As soon as the Left gets wind that that we won't be spending millions educating and healing the children of a foreign country they'll oppose it.

Serge Ibaka
6/25/2010, 02:04 PM
Don't worry, Tuba. As soon as the Left gets wind that that we won't be spending millions educating and healing the children of a foreign country they'll oppose it.

Now, please explain how we stop educating the children of illegal aliens? Will you be leading the brown-person-round-up! around local elementary schools and parks, sending them all on a yellow-bus-convoy towards Juarez?

OklahomaTuba
6/25/2010, 02:08 PM
Will you be leading the brown-person-round-up! around local elementary schools and parks, sending them all on a yellow-bus-convoy towards Juarez?I'm gonna leave that job to the democrats. They have experience (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment) in stuff like that.

Leroy Lizard
6/25/2010, 04:18 PM
Now, please explain how we stop educating the children of illegal aliens? Will you be leading the brown-person-round-up! around local elementary schools and parks, sending them all on a yellow-bus-convoy towards Juarez?

Not at all. Just revoking the visas of their parents so they lose their work privileges for (say) five years.

The rule is: If you bring your kids across the border, kiss your privileges goodbye.

Serge Ibaka
6/25/2010, 04:21 PM
Not at all. Just revoking the visas of their parents so they lose their work privileges for (say) five years.

The rule is: If you bring your kids across the border, kiss your privileges goodbye.

That only applies to a portion of the children in your upcoming brown-person-round-up!.

Leroy Lizard
6/25/2010, 04:23 PM
That only applies to a portion of the children in your upcoming brown-person-round-up!.

That is the only portion that concerns me. The children of legal immigrants are fully within their rights to attend school.

SanJoaquinSooner
6/25/2010, 11:13 PM
Are you really trying to compare mexico to canada?

Please reread what I wrote. I wasn't comparing Mexico to Canada. I was contrasting U.S. visa policy for Canadians vs. U.S. visa policy for Mexicans vs. Mexican visa policy for U.S. citizens.

Leroy Lizard
6/25/2010, 11:29 PM
Please reread what I wrote. I wasn't comparing Mexico to Canada. I was contrasting U.S. visa policy for Canadians vs. U.S. visa policy for Mexicans vs. Mexican visa policy for U.S. citizens.

Personally I don't care if we hand every Canadian that crosses a box of See's candies and a bouquet of roses. It has no relevance to Mexico.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/26/2010, 12:04 AM
Originally Posted by SanJoaquinSooner
"Please reread what I wrote. I wasn't comparing Mexico to Canada. I was contrasting U.S. visa policy for Canadians vs. U.S. visa policy for Mexicans vs. Mexican visa policy for U.S. citizens."

Don't you think what's more apropo is to compare the multitudes walking North past the Mexican border without any documentation or even knowledge of their existence?...vs all those Canadians doing the same thing going south?

SanJoaquinSooner
6/26/2010, 12:34 AM
Originally Posted by SanJoaquinSooner
"Please reread what I wrote. I wasn't comparing Mexico to Canada. I was contrasting U.S. visa policy for Canadians vs. U.S. visa policy for Mexicans vs. Mexican visa policy for U.S. citizens."

Don't you think what's more apropo is to compare the multitudes walking North past the Mexican border without any documentation or even knowledge of their existence?...vs all those Canadians doing the same thing going south?

Make the rules the same for Mexicans as for Canadians and the number crossing the border without any documentation gets close to zero

Leroy Lizard
6/26/2010, 01:08 AM
Make the rules the same for Mexicans as for Canadians and the number crossing the border without any documentation gets close to zero

How will that solve any of our problems?