The Pippen Debate

[Collier11]

In the past two days I have heard this talked about on the Sports Animal, on Colin Cowherds show, another show on ESPN radio, and we had a big discussion about it a month or so again in a thread here. I think its time to debate this SoonerFans style.

These are the stances I have heard over the last month and how I feel about it personally.

Pippen was a top 5 guy in the league when he played- Cowherd

I have to say that I disagree, I took away Pippens 1st three and last three years so we are looking at a time frame of 90-91 thru 2000-01. During that time frame, considering that players played atleast 5 years during that same time, these are the guys who I would say are better than Pippen.

MJ, Hakeem, Malone, Shaq, Barkley, David Robinson. So, with that, I would put him at #7 during that time frame.



Pippen is no longer a top 50 guy all time- Espn and SA

Previously I had said that I thought he was around 30-45, some on this board said top 20 or 30 all time. After thinking about it, Id say he is somewhere around 45-60. Im not going to take the time to put together my own top 50 list but I have looked at about 5 or 6 that are floating around on the internet and based off of those lists and my own opinion id put him in the 45-60.

Having him 30-45 previously and taking into account new players like Kobe, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Lebron, Dwayne Wade, Amare Stoudamire, Dirk, KG, Duncan,etc... not to mention a few young guys who I think have a chance to be on that list in 5-10 years-Durant, CP3, Deron Williams, etc...

If you want me to pin it down and give you an exact number id probably say he is now around 55 but without taking the time to put together my own list, I say 45-60.

Pippen is not even a top 100 guy all time anymore- SA

I dont buy this one bit, as I said, I have looked at several newer lists that are on the internet and I dont see 60 or 70 guys better than him, let alone 100

Pippen looked better than he ever was because of Jordan- SA


This is true to an extent and I think if Pippen played his entire career as the #1 guy he wouldnt have been near as successful or well thought of but this goes for alot of borderline great players.

The fact that he quit in a playoff game knocks him down- SA and ESPN

Some may scrutinize this opinion but I do agree with it to an extent. It is one thing to be pissed because the play is drawn up for Kukoc but its a whole other deal to take yourself out of the game. I think Lebron deserves scrutiny for the way his team quit this year and he needs to prove next year, win or lose that his team is tough and wont give up and I view this situation pretty strongly as well.

Pippen is top 20-30 all time- This board

Absolutely not, I can name 30 guys that are better than him without thinking twice. But of course, this is already known due to my previous statements of him being a 45-60 player.



So, let the debate to begin...

[JLEW1818]

well let me ask and you say better or worse vs Pippen.


Dirk?
AI?
Kidd?
Walton?
Stockton?
Garnett?
Barkley?
Drexler?

[Collier11]

well let me ask and you say better or worse vs Pippen.



Dirk?
AI?
Kidd?
Walton?
Stockton?
Garnett?
Barkley?
Drexler?

Those are my opinions, bolded are better

[JLEW1818]

Those are my opinions, bolded are better

Kidd over Stockton.. :confused:

[Collier11]

Yep, I think Kidd can do more. Not as good of a shooter but he could still score when needed, just as good of a passer, never really played with a GREAT player like Stockton, a better rebounder, and played better D

[JLEW1818]

just imagine Karl without Stockon tho... :)

all time leader in steals/assists has to be top 25... i have Stockton at 25ish, Kidd at 40ish

just me

[Curly Bill]

Pippen was not top 5 when he played, nor was/is he a top 50 all time.

[Eielson]

Didn't we already have this debate?

[Collier11]

Not to the fullest extent, it was more a part of a different discussion

[StoopTroup]

Nobody who serves as a backup to a Superstar is ever going to be a Top 50 that's why Kobe and Shaq had so many problems.

Those two probably could get along better now that it's apparent who the real superstar was. Shaq would just back Kobe up and be a decent center that can't shoot freethrows.

Pippen>Shaq though.

[Collier11]

No way is Pippen better than Shaq when Shaq was in his prime

[StoopTroup]

Pippen would have dunked on his *** and taken Shaq to the woodshed. Pippen would have fouled Shaq and Scottie would have won any one on one by simply putting Shaq at the line.

Shaq sucked balls even in his prime.

[StoopTroup]

Shaq isn't even in the top 200.

[StoopTroup]

Bill Walton was better than Shaq and he was a pot smoker. :D

[Eielson]

Pippen is a little tough to rank. Almost every other person he would be ranked against would be a better scorer, but almost every one is also a worse defender. It depends on what you think of as a great player. I think most people look at a great player as somebody who can carry a team and do well without a whole lot of help kind of like what Lebron has done in some years. Pippen can be that guy to some extent, but he's more of a valuable piece to a championship team than he is a do-it-yourself guy. People who can carry a team are nice, but isn't the goal to win championships?

I don't think that he is better than Jordan, but I do believe that he had about as much effect on the Bulls winning championships. If Jordan didn't have Pippen, I think that Jordan's title count would've been closer to 0 than 6. It would be extremely difficult, maybe impossible, to find somebody who could play Pippen's role in those 6 championships better.

Ranking a basketball player against another is always difficult. Basketball isn't a 1 on 1 sport. You have 5 players, and all 5 of them affect eachother. It's hard to pull two guys off their teams and compare them. All I know is that when Pippen was playing 5 on 5 basketball, he won 6 championships.

[StoopTroup]

Steve Kerr was one of the Top 50 White Players ever in the NBA.


Steve Kerr, was involved in NBA Championships for over a decade, and combined with Robert Horry to win 12 championships over a 14-year period.

[tulsaoilerfan]

Shaq isn't even in the top 200.

I agree; all Shaq could do was dunk

[Eielson]

Shaq shouldn't even have been in the NBA.

[StoopTroup]

I'm not sure Shaq could spell NBA but I know he could rap it.

[Eielson]

ktDO_LtGSLM

[My Opinion Matters]

This is what I posted I on this topic before, and because no one bothered to dispute any of it, I would say it remains valid:




Jordan is the greatest player ever. Jordan was a great defender. Pippen was the better defensive player.

Versalitily doesn't make Pippen great? O RLY? So the fact that Pippen holds the NBA career records for assists and steals by a forward doesn't make him great? The fact that Pippen is one of three NBA players to record 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season doesn't make him great? Or what about Pippen being one of four NBA players EVER to lead his team in all five major statistical categories (points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals) in a season? Yeah, that guy must suck.

You guys are way off on this one.

Pippen is the all-time leader among forwards in assists and steals. He's one of the best defensive players ever. What else needs to be said? Screw you, Collie, for baiting me into this thread and forcing me to agree with Eielson. :mad:

[ouleaf]

I do think Scottie is still an all time top 50, but his number keeps dropping back as more and more guys come into the league and have remarkable careers. He is certainly a top 100 player. Absolutely no doubt about that.

While he will forever remain in Jordan's shadow, just like every other player of that era, he was instrumental in winning those 6 titles with the bulls. He could score, he could pass, and he could defend like nobody else.

Here are some good highlights for Scottie's case though:

http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippen10_moments.html

[Collier11]

I agree; all Dwight Howard could do was dunk

Fixed for accuracy

[Collier11]

Screw you, Collie, for baiting me into this thread and forcing me to agree with Eielson. :mad:

:D

[the_ouskull]

Pippen is the all-time leader among forwards in assists and steals. He's one of the best defensive players ever. What else needs to be said?

- Scottie Pippen's 5.21 assists per game are good for 82nd of all-time, right behind Jordan's 5.25, ironically.
- His 1.96 steals per game are good for 15th, all-time.
- His 18.63 career PER is good for 105th of all-time, wedged in-between Sam Jones and Tim Hardaway. Great if you're starting an announce team. Bad if you're campaigning to be considered one of the __ best players ever.
- He is also ranked 33rd based on his HoF probability. (There's basically a 99.21% chance he's getting in.)

Now, when you discount the first few years and the last few years, you're only taking Pippen at his prime... but the numbers that you quoted then, were career numbers. So, even though you removed six years worth of measure, you then included the results of those years in your final numbers.

- Only twice did he finish in the running for the MVP award (3rd in 93/94, and 5th in 95/96) during his career.
- In calling Pippen the "all-time leader in assists for forwards," aside from the "career totals" as opposed to the "per game" argument, I'm also going to go ahead and assume that you're calling Oscar Robertson a guard? I mean, sure, he was listed as a guard/forward... but so was Pippen, and Robertson had about 3700 more assists. Or, in terms that are a bit easier to understand... at the rate Paul is currently going, Pippen is about four and a half seasons worth of Chris Paul's assist totals behind The Big O.
- Like it or not, the "Headache Game" and the "1.4 Seconds Game" are as defining of Pippen's legacy as anything that he did on the court, which, given all of the amazingness he did on the court, is a crying shame.
- He never ranked higher than 5th in the league in Win Shares (96/97) at any point.

Top 100? Yeah. Probably.
Top 75? Eh...
Top 50? No.

But, being the second-best player on some of the greatest championship teams of all time, and being second-best because the best to ever lace them up, ever, happened to be in the same starting lineup as you...? There is no shame there.

---

As for Pippen vs. __________?

Well...

vs. Drexler

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=pippesc01&p2=drexlcl01

vs. Barkley

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=pippesc01&p2=barklch01

vs. Malone

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=pippesc01&p2=malonka01

Those are his head-to-head against guys that he actually got to play against. If you want to measure him up against guys like Dirk, et al... let me know.

Oh, and for those of you saying all Shaq ever did was dunk, and that he sucks, etc... if you have a nice TV, give it to someone smarter than you. Otherwise, just go ahead and give up, 'cause it's obvious you either don't watch basketball, or you don't learn from it. Thanks in advance.

the_ouskull

[Eielson]

By holding the career record for assists, he means:

This (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&type=totals&per_minute_base=48&year_min=1947&year_max=2008&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&lg_id=NBA&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=F&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=ast)

...and by holding the career record for steals, he means:

This (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&type=totals&per_minute_base=48&year_min=1947&year_max=2008&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&lg_id=NBA&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=F&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=stl)

For the win shares argument, Pippen is #33 all-time for NBA/ABA players:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career.html

I'm not sure why the MVP voting was brought up. It's obvious why he wasn't in the running for many of those. The guy was playing with Jordan. If you don't buy that, just look at what happened when Jordan retired for a year and a half. Pippen was an MVP finalist. Anyway, more importantly, if you believe we should just assume that when people vote on something they're right, let's just assume the people who voted on the top 50 players of all-time were right.

[Collier11]

That vote was done 13 years ago if I remember correctly, thats why in my view he used to be in the lower part of the Top 50 but now he has dropped out of the Top 50

[StoopTroup]

Actually...I have a feeling that Shaq is a Pot Smoker too. :D

[stoops the eternal pimp]

outside of the top 50...probably 7th-12th best player in the league during the years he played..the fact that he took himself out of a playoff game like that matters...

Oh, and I agree with Skull word for f'n word.

[StoopTroup]

As far as agreeing with Skull...did my TV mess up and Shaq was a Free Throw God? Because...I thought he missed a whole bunch of those MFers. Hey...if he did make them...then OK....but I sure thought it was pretty apparent on my TV that the way to shut him down was to put someone in and foul him.

That being said...I was raised to believe the strip on the floor that you stand in front of and face the rim/lane was called "A CHARITY STRIPE". In other words...you were getting a gift or a gimme by being able to take your time without someone even getting near you and put up an attempt at a One On One or even two shots if they fouled you in the lane. From what I remember he was a complete bust when it came to shooting an unmolested FREE THROW. That being said...from more than 15 feet with someone in his face...I also can't remember him being very well known for his jumper either. What I remember was he was this huge guy who could muscle you in the lane and either take a 3 or 4 footer from around rim level and flip it in close enough for it to go in or he would muscle his way in close enough to nearly tear the rim off the backboard which makes him evidently someone better than every other 7 foot guy the NBA has seen play that could actually shoot and make free throws.

I wouldn't ever not pick Shaq for one of my NBA teams unless I could have a Bill Russell or a Wilt the Stilt or a Jabbar or a Tim Duncan...I can list many others....to choose from but saying I missed something or I didn't watch enough Basketball if I think Shaq was a mediocre player at best...is a bit of a stretch as far as I'm concerned.


Oh, and for those of you saying all Shaq ever did was dunk, and that he sucks, etc... if you have a nice TV, give it to someone smarter than you. Otherwise, just go ahead and give up, 'cause it's obvious you either don't watch basketball, or you don't learn from it. Thanks in advance.

Oh and BTW...if you guys think Shaq are good for the game....you didn't learn much from watching Jordan. MJ made Shaq look like a chump. It was then apparent that anyone who didn't set MJ as the Professional Level in the NBA for Superstars....that the NBA was doomed for decades. You have to have that standard if you are going to ever see another kid take a statement like "I wanna be like Mike" to the next level. If you don't think it can be done....then the NBA is done. I hope it's not done but I have to be honest....the game hasn't been the same since he left IMO.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

shaq ft percentage 52.7
wilt ft percentage 51.1

[StoopTroup]

So over 20+ years of NBA History...Shaq was unable to realize that to be better than Wilt you'd need to make some free throws?

Again...the Dude was an NBA bust and IMO an embarrassment to the game.

You take Wilt's 100 point game performances and the low % to the bank IMO. Wilt changed the game....Shaq had to change his drawers after MJ took him to the woodshed.

[StoopTroup]

Jordan is the Standard until another Basketball God comes along.

Dirk, Kobe, Duncan, LeBron know and some of the new guys are beginning to realize what it takes to be a Superstar and make yourself a lock for the HOF.

Jordan set that bar and Pippen...although he didn't set the bar...he could play above it at times. Shaq is still telling everyone how he used to hang around the bar.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

That being said...I was raised to believe the strip on the floor that you stand in front of and face the rim/lane was called "A CHARITY STRIPE". In other words...you were getting a gift or a gimme by being able to take your time without someone even getting near you and put up an attempt at a One On One or even two shots if they fouled you in the lane. From what I remember he was a complete bust when it came to shooting an unmolested FREE THROW. That being said...from more than 15 feet with someone in his face...I also can't remember him being very well known for his jumper either. What I remember was he was this huge guy who could muscle you in the lane and either take a 3 or 4 footer from around rim level and flip it in close enough for it to go in or he would muscle his way in close enough to nearly tear the rim off the backboard which makes him evidently someone better than every other 7 foot guy the NBA has seen play that could actually shoot and make free throws.

.

so was wilt a bust from the FT line because he was a worse FT shooter than shaq? btw, do you think Wilt had a 15 footer? many of the things your knocking Shaq for could be said about Wilt

[StoopTroup]

so was wilt a bust from the FT line because he was a worse FT shooter than shaq? btw, do you think Wilt had a 15 footer? many of the things your knocking Shaq for could be said about Wilt

You missed that part where I said...Wilt changed the game. Shaq didn't come close. He's a wanna be.

Remember Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome? Master Blaster? Shaq is Blaster and there is no Master.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

so flip them...if shaq had played in wilt's time, would they have changed the rules then?

[StoopTroup]

so flip them...if shaq had played in wilt's time, would they have changed the rules then?

I doubt it. He would have fouled out every game for muscling them.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

what do you think Wilt did?

I know Wilt never fouled out, but the game was called a lot different then

[StoopTroup]

Listen to the first of this...

"You can be certain that the scorer will continue to find new and innovative ways to do it."

Wilt did that. Shaq = wannabe

hcEMT5oRpGQ

[StoopTroup]

Shaq did continue to find new and innovative ways to miss a free throw though...LMAO

4eGNH-i0L_U

[the_ouskull]

Big man guru Pete Newell calls Shaq's footwork "tremendous for a man his size."


"My game is a game of A and B. If you take away A, you're not quick enough to get to B."

-----

I've been waiting to get into this one with somebody...

Ignoring for a minute the fact that it is well-known (at least in NBA circles) that he had great footwork, was an excellent passer out of the post, had some of the best hands to ever catch the ball, and could handle the ball incredibly well for someone his size... there were a lot of other good things about Shaq as well.

- NBA Champion 4x
- NBA Finals MVP 3x
- League Leader FG% 9x (tied with Wilt for #1 all-time)
- One of only four players ever to total 20k, 10k, 2.5k, and 2k - points, boards, dimes, and blocks. (Kareem, Duncan, Hakeem)

In addition, his historical rankings are as follows:

- 5th all-time, scoring
- 14th all-time, rebounds
- 174th all-time, assists
- 7th all-time, blocks
- 2nd all-time, field goal percentage
- 5862 made free throws, or, more MADE free throws than Magic Johnson, John Stockton, or Kevin Garnett even ATTEMPTED in their careers. (Yes, of COURSE his pathetic free throw percentage hurt - badly - but he still helped his team by drawing fouls on the opposing team's bigs, opening the lane for guards like Penny, Kobe, and D-Wade.)

From '97-'98 through '01-'02, Shaq was doing to the NBA what LeBron is doing to it now. His PER for those years was 28.8, 30.5, 30.6, 30.2, 29.7. That's sick.

And, on top of all of that, we have... The Dunks.

If, in a league full of athletes who are paid to play basketball, nobody could figure out that "all Shaq does is dunk," and then proceed to stop it, how is that an indictment on Shaq? If I put you in front of a goal that was just two or three feet from your head, and said, "You get one shot at this goal. Make it, you're rich; miss it, you're a trashman." Don't act like you wouldn't dunk the ball. Don't blame Shaq for doing the same. If everybody knew he was going to dunk, why wasn't it stopped sooner? It could have something to do with his passing, no? (2.6 assists/game, career - season high of 3.9/game in 1999/2000.)

But passing isn't a dunk...

I can do more later, but I want to see if the counter-arguments merit more. Since they're always "he can only dunk," they ususally don't. Sometimes people will talk about how fat he is/was. True that, too. But now those same people are just getting unkindly dunked on by a fat guy, which, since all he does is dunk, they knew was coming and STILL couldn't stop. No wonder Shaq's haters really hate his so much. They just got dunked on by a fat guy when they knew it was coming and they still couldn't stop it, and he kept on winning rings. Heh.

the_ouskull

[stoops the eternal pimp]

if shaq misses 600 more freethrows before he retires, then he'll catch WC...and he'll never be able to touch Wilt's single season miss record

Wilt is probably the greatest big man of all time..but to say shaq was a bust or that he wasn't any good because he had a similar skill set to Wilt?...

[the_ouskull]

And now we're seeing the Shaq vs. Wilt argument. Here, let me help.

Same player, different era, Shaq has more rings.

Wilt was selfish and only cared about his numbers. He would quit playing defense once he picked up his next-to-last foul just to keep his foul-out streak going. He often also asked the scorers how he was doing. ("How many assists do I have?" etc...) because he was so obsessed with his numbers. Shaq just put up the numbers. Wilt actually bothered keeping track of them 'cause they were all he cared about. Shaq may have cared about a lot of things, but winning was always near the top of the list. Wilt was selfish, and people hated playing WITH him even more than against him.

Oh, and the game was infinitely more physical back then. Shaq would have put up Wilt-like numbers back in the day, with almost no problem. He wouldn't have shot as many free-throws, but for him, that's a good thing.

the_ouskull

[My Opinion Matters]

- Scottie Pippen's 5.21 assists per game are good for 82nd of all-time, right behind Jordan's 5.25, ironically.
- His 1.96 steals per game are good for 15th, all-time.
- His 18.63 career PER is good for 105th of all-time, wedged in-between Sam Jones and Tim Hardaway. Great if you're starting an announce team. Bad if you're campaigning to be considered one of the __ best players ever.
- He is also ranked 33rd based on his HoF probability. (There's basically a 99.21% chance he's getting in.)

Now, when you discount the first few years and the last few years, you're only taking Pippen at his prime... but the numbers that you quoted then, were career numbers. So, even though you removed six years worth of measure, you then included the results of those years in your final numbers.

- Only twice did he finish in the running for the MVP award (3rd in 93/94, and 5th in 95/96) during his career.
- In calling Pippen the "all-time leader in assists for forwards," aside from the "career totals" as opposed to the "per game" argument, I'm also going to go ahead and assume that you're calling Oscar Robertson a guard? I mean, sure, he was listed as a guard/forward... but so was Pippen, and Robertson had about 3700 more assists. Or, in terms that are a bit easier to understand... at the rate Paul is currently going, Pippen is about four and a half seasons worth of Chris Paul's assist totals behind The Big O.
- Like it or not, the "Headache Game" and the "1.4 Seconds Game" are as defining of Pippen's legacy as anything that he did on the court, which, given all of the amazingness he did on the court, is a crying shame.
- He never ranked higher than 5th in the league in Win Shares (96/97) at any point.

Top 100? Yeah. Probably.
Top 75? Eh...
Top 50? No.

But, being the second-best player on some of the greatest championship teams of all time, and being second-best because the best to ever lace them up, ever, happened to be in the same starting lineup as you...? There is no shame there.

---

As for Pippen vs. __________?

Well...

vs. Drexler

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=pippesc01&p2=drexlcl01

vs. Barkley

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=pippesc01&p2=barklch01

vs. Malone

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=pippesc01&p2=malonka01

Those are his head-to-head against guys that he actually got to play against. If you want to measure him up against guys like Dirk, et al... let me know.





Advanced metrics like PER can make for a compelling portion of the discussion when evaluating players, but it's hardly the definitive answer that stat geeks like to believe it is. They're far more effective when applied to baseball than to basketball, but that's another discussion for another day.

The problem with using PER as the foundation of an anti-Pippen argument is that you're ignoring the inherent flaws in the PER formula. First of all, while PER does factor in blocks and steals into its formula it's largely just a measure of offensive production. John Hollinger even admits that PER is not a reliable measure of a player's defensive aptitude. Secondly, PER rewards players that jack up a lot of shots. The flaws in the formula can allow for ineffecient scorers to inflate their PER values by simply taking more shots. This flaw is even reflected in the "career PER" statistic you quoted earlier. I think it's easy to take a cursory glance at the top of the career PER list, see Michael Jordan and Lebron James sitting there, and assume that makes PER a credible evaluative tool. But if you just investigate a little further down the list you see examples that defy logic and common sense. Neil Johnston (who?) is the 9th greatest player in professional basketball history? Really? David Robinson (4th in career PER) was a greater player than Hakeem Olajuwon (16th)? Anyone who watched Olajuwon annihilate Robinson in the 1995 Western Conference Finals knows how preposterous that is. Tracy "I killed three franchises" McGrady is the 22nd best player of all-time?

If we're using advanced metrics in this discussion, I have to agree with Eielson, win shares is the more credible formula. Like Eielson stated, Pippen is 29th on the career win shares list, and more importantly, Pippen is 17th on the defensive win shares list. I love the defensive win shares list because it gives real statistical value to players that are so consistently undervalued by so-called "basketball people". It helps cement Bill Russell's legacy as one of the top 5 players ever (which he is, definitively, his defensive win shares are 30% higher than the next closest player in NBA history) and it's another wrinkle into the old Russell vs Chamberlain debate (Russell for me, easily). But again, that's another discussion for another day, I suppose.

As far as your objections as to the validity of career assists and steals totals, I don't really understand what your point of contention is. The numbers are what they are. I used the same webiste to obtain those numbers as you did to obtain your PER rankings.

I'm not sure I understand the motivation in the anti-Pippen smear campaign. Do people think that it somehow tarnishes Jordan's legacy that he played with another top 20-25 all time player? It doesn't. Jordan is nearly universally accepted by everyone, myself included, as the greatest player ever. But come on people, it was no accident that Jordan and Pippen once won 72 games in a season together. As great as Jordan was, the Bulls never come close to approaching that level of greatness without Pippen. Maybe people just hate Pippen's ugly mug? I have a confession, I couldn't stand Pippen when he played simply because of that mug. He was just about my least favorite player of the decade. Now that I'm a little older and wiser, I've learned to appreciate Pippen's contributions to the game.

[My Opinion Matters]

And now we're seeing the Shaq vs. Wilt argument. Here, let me help.

Same player, different era, Shaq has more rings.

Wilt was selfish and only cared about his numbers. He would quit playing defense once he picked up his next-to-last foul just to keep his foul-out streak going. He often also asked the scorers how he was doing. ("How many assists do I have?" etc...) because he was so obsessed with his numbers. Shaq just put up the numbers. Wilt actually bothered keeping track of them 'cause they were all he cared about. Shaq may have cared about a lot of things, but winning was always near the top of the list. Wilt was selfish, and people hated playing WITH him even more than against him.

Oh, and the game was infinitely more physical back then. Shaq would have put up Wilt-like numbers back in the day, with almost no problem. He wouldn't have shot as many free-throws, but for him, that's a good thing.

the_ouskull

This, on the other hand, is spot-on.

[the_ouskull]

Advanced metrics like PER can make for a compelling portion of the discussion when evaluating players, but it's hardly the definitive answer that stat geeks like to believe it is. They're far more effective when applied to baseball than to basketball, but that's another discussion for another day.

The problem with using PER as the foundation of an anti-Pippen argument is that you're ignoring the inherent flaws in the PER formula. First of all, while PER does factor in blocks and steals into its formula it's largely just a measure of offensive production. John Hollinger even admits that PER is not a reliable measure of a player's defensive aptitude.

I agree completely. However, on a basketball board, typically, I only have to argue one side of the equation. I'm more than happy to argue both. But, in fairness, I only "went after" the stats that were presented to me. If the argument had been in regards to Pippen's defense, I'd have been all for it. He was an excellent defender. All-World, even. He could guard everybody from the one to the three, and some fours, comfortably, and between he and Jordan, a lot of teams couldn't even bring the freakin' ball up the court against the Bulls. He was not good, but great.

Secondly, PER rewards players that jack up a lot of shots. The flaws in the formula can allow for ineffecient scorers to inflate their PER values by simply taking more shots. This flaw is even reflected in the "career PER" statistic you quoted earlier. I think it's easy to take a cursory glance at the top of the career PER list, see Michael Jordan and Lebron James sitting there, and assume that makes PER a credible evaluative tool. But if you just investigate a little further down the list you see examples that defy logic and common sense. Neil Johnston (who?) is the 9th greatest player in professional basketball history? Really? David Robinson (4th in career PER) was a greater player than Hakeem Olajuwon (16th)? Anyone who watched Olajuwon annihilate Robinson in the 1995 Western Conference Finals knows how preposterous that is. Tracy "I killed three franchises" McGrady is the 22nd best player of all-time?

I fully understand PER, but, just as you said in your initial post, it is PART of the formula. Don't start making it the "be-all, end-all" when it supports YOUR side of the argument now, Neil Johnston. (And, for the record, an athletic 6'8", 210-pound guy would have DOMINATED basketball in the 1950's. In fact, he did. My biggest problem isn't with PER, but CAREER PER. It factors in everything, but yes, the "good years" generally get more weight. How high would Shaq's career PER be if he'd have quit after winning that ring in Miami?

If we're using advanced metrics in this discussion, I have to agree with Eielson, win shares is the more credible formula. Like Eielson stated, Pippen is 29th on the career win shares list, and more importantly, Pippen is 17th on the defensive win shares list. I love the defensive win shares list because it gives real statistical value to players that are so consistently undervalued by so-called "basketball people". It helps cement Bill Russell's legacy as one of the top 5 players ever (which he is, definitively, his defensive win shares are 30% higher than the next closest player in NBA history) and it's another wrinkle into the old Russell vs Chamberlain debate (Russell for me, easily). But again, that's another discussion for another day, I suppose.

I love win shares, and especially defensive win shares, as a measuring stick of a player's overall contribution...

...but they're not perfect either.

(Although Shaq IS 7th, all-time, at helping his team win basketball games...)

Pippen is 29th. That helps your argument a great deal. Just looking underneath him, it'd be hard to find 21 guys that you could absolutely say are better than he is. A quick glance:

Hang on a second... I don't have to prove that players were better than Pippen. This is an argument. I just have to prove that you're a stupid head and I can play the "I win" game. Sweet...

First of all, it's called "Win Score" and four of the top ten guys never won a ring. Another, Wilt, only won one late 'cause he quit being a selfish pr*ck for half a season. Off to a bad start...

Career (NBA) Win Score Rankings:

Kobe Bryant: 20th
Reggie Miller: 10th

Larry Bird: 21st
Moses Malone: 11th

Scottie Pippen: 29th
Clyde Drexler: 24th

(this is what we call a self-sacrifice...)

That last one especially should help illustrate how fickle Win Score is. Scottie Pippen is lower on the list than Clyde the Glide.

Once again, a stat about the career accomplishments. Only, in this case, Scottie was hurt by sticking around too long.

Drexler has a higher win score because he was helping his team win more basketball games, for longer, than Scottie Pippen. But, as a Clyde Drexler fan (I've said countless times he's my favorite player, and my original Dream Team jersey of his is one of my prizes...) I don't think that Clyde was a better player than Pippen when they were both in their primes. But, when you look at the win scores, they're really close with Clyde being slightly ahead, even.

As far as your objections as to the validity of career assists and steals totals, I don't really understand what your point of contention is. The numbers are what they are. I used the same webiste to obtain those numbers as you did to obtain your PER rankings.

And the numbers that show Clyde being ahead may "be what they are," but I watched those games, too, man. I saw Pippen (and Jordan, admittedly) disrupt the h*ll out of the entire Blazers team except Clyde, and I saw Clyde unable to do the same in return. Scottie Pippen was a supernova. He burned as brightly as anybody in the NBA for a handful of years... but then he burnt out quickly.

Clyde entered the league four years sooner and left it two years later than Scottie. A lot of Scottie's career numbers were compiled while he was clinging on to teams as a shadow of what he used to be. Scottie's last full year in the league was 1999-2000. Losing to L.A. changed him. He lost his legs about halfway through the next season, and was done after that. Done? Yes. Retired? Not for three more (painful) years. Sure, he added another 1500 points, 667 rebounds, 698 assists, and 206 steals.. but at what cost?

(these are all estimates, but not very far off, either...)

He moved up 20 spots on the career scoring list... 30 spots on the career rebounding list... 10 spots on the assists list... and about 5 spots on the career steals list.

By hanging around, doing exactly what people hate Shaq for doing now, Pippen improved his (statistical) legacy by that much. I'm not disagreeing with your argument in regards to Pippen so much as I am the way you were making it. By posting career numbers, you're being as biased as the guy who went 1/1 with one HR only posting batting average and slugging percentage. Just as with PER, AND Win Score, AND stats in general... they can tell d*mn near all of the story... but not by themselves.

I'm not sure I understand the motivation in the anti-Pippen smear campaign. Do people think that it somehow tarnishes Jordan's legacy that he played with another top 20-25 all time player? It doesn't. Jordan is nearly universally accepted by everyone, myself included, as the greatest player ever. But come on people, it was no accident that Jordan and Pippen once won 72 games in a season together. As great as Jordan was, the Bulls never come close to approaching that level of greatness without Pippen. Maybe people just hate Pippen's ugly mug? I have a confession, I couldn't stand Pippen when he played simply because of that mug. He was just about my least favorite player of the decade. Now that I'm a little older and wiser, I've learned to appreciate Pippen's contributions to the game.

I was not a Jordan fan when he played. (I didn't care for his willingness to show up his teammates publicly and the preferential treatment he got from officials - both on the court and in the league offices...) On the other hand, except for looking at his face, (did he chase parked cars or what?) I was a HUGE Pippen fan. I do not think that Jordan would have won without him, just as I now do not think that LeBron will win without another (legitmate - sorry Mo freakin' Williams...) All-Star-caliber player alongside him.

I always appreciated Pippen's contributions to the game, and to the Bulls three championships, and the fact that he was one of the most versatile, humble, and talented players to play in the league in a long time. He was also an All-World defender (my favorite) and the prototype "point-forward" that we see so much of now.

Yeah, I said three championships.

It took exactly 1.4 seconds for Pippen to lose me. In the middle of a playoff game, he was asked to help his team win, and he chose himself over his team.

Win scores don't measure that sh*t either...

the_ouskull

[Collier11]

anyone who says Shaq is/was a bust is a looney toon, STOOP

[My Opinion Matters]

Skull, let's go out for orange mocha frappucinos.

[the_ouskull]

I'm assuming that that would make my last post Magnum? Blue Steel?

the_ouskull

[My Opinion Matters]

I'm assuming that that would make my last post Magnum? Blue Steel?

the_ouskull

It makes you a model, idiot. (I still literally laugh out loud each time I play that scene in my head)

As for Pippen's infamous "quitter game", I will defer to Simmons. Partly because he summarizes it much more eloquently than I ever could, but mostly because I'm lazy. So impossibly and bafflingly lazy.


We all remember that fateful 94 Knicks series, when Scottie refused to finish Game 3 because Phil Jackson called the final play for Kukoc (who banked the game-winner with Pippen sulking on the bench). A betrayed Bill Cartwright screamed at Pippen, later calling it the biggest disappointment of his career. And maybe it was. Of course, Scottie carried a Jordan-less Bulls squad to 55 wins by himself. It had become his team, and when it's your team, a mind-set takes hold: everything rests on your shoulders, everyone is gunning for you and you can't take a night off. You become the pumped-up star of your own action movie. Unless you think like a superhero, you won't survive. Scottie wasn't wired that way, so he had to play the role of the alpha dog...and Game 3 was his Chitwood moment. He'd earned the right to say "Coach, I'll make it." Jackson took the moment away and gave it to Kukoc, a slap in the face if you understood Scott'e back story. He hailed from a dirt poor town in Arkansas, one of twelve siblings with an ailing father that couldn't work anymore. After an improbable growth spurt propelled him to NAIA Division I stardom, Scottie's stock skyrocketed right before the 87 draft, with Chicago landing him in the lottery and locking him up with a six-year bargain of a deal. When the Bulls courted Kukoc for most of Scottie's career, Scottie never forgave them for it. Or Kukoc, for that matter. So that's what led to the regrettable decision in the Kukoc game: a Molotov cocktail of money, jealousy, insecurity, ego and competitiveness exploded at the worst possible time. Scottie apologized, his team forgave him, he took the heat and that was that. **** happens. The Bulls won three more rings with him. Everyone forgets that part. If you think one selfish moment should overshadow a totally unselfish career, maybe you should climb off your high horse before you get hurt.

[Collier11]

Any reasoning for a guy quitting on his own team is nothing more than a sorry azz excuse.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I am beginning to think my opinion may be wrong because I'm agreeing with Collier

[Collier11]

STEP, I think we agree more than you realize. We just havent lately :D

[My Opinion Matters]

You two get your own damn thread.

[Collier11]

I started this thread, its because of me that you get to show us how smart you think you are :D

[stoops the eternal pimp]

what he said

[My Opinion Matters]

This is why you're not invited for orange mocha frappucinos. Both of you.

[Collier11]

I dont even like orange, I would want peach

[My Opinion Matters]

Gah, you're such a diva.

[Eielson]

First of all, it's called "Win Score" and four of the top ten guys never won a ring.

In the link I posted it's called "Win Shares" and when you bought it up in this argument you called it "Win Shares."

[My Opinion Matters]

In the link I posted it's called "Win Shares" and when you bought it up in this argument you called it "Win Shares."

Knowing what I know about skull (which is admittedly not much), that post is as close as he'll ever come to capitulating.

[the_ouskull]

I wasn't correcting you, believe it or not. (Although thank you for correcting me.) My statement, as it should sound, was:

"First of all, it's called WIN scores (sic) and four of the top ten guys never WON a ring."

My emphasis was taking issue with the name of the stat, not the (correct) way we had both discussed it previously. I mean, I think of a lot of things when I think of Karl Malone - mostly Jimmy Kimmel and hunting little Mexican girls - but winning isn't one of them.

As for the Simmons quote... I have the book too. I know what he said, and it's very rare that I don't agree with him in some way, but with Pippen, I just can't. 1997-98 was the last good year that he had, but he played until 2003-04. His numbers alone don't tell the story, to be sure. They're inflated from his "hanger-on" years, but the years he was at the top, he was amazing, and very, very disruptive in ways that don't (always) show up statistically.

I think?

An injury-shortened season, a move to a new team - from the freaking Bulls Dynasty, and then a lockout-shortened season, combined with his hitting his early 30's, turned him a lot older than he should have been, a lot quicker. I mean, look at it this way. He played more games in the 1990's than almost anybody else. Between the 82-game regular season, the Bulls deep playoff runs, the Olympics (twice, I think), and the All-Star games, even. When he hit his early 30's, left what he knew as home for so long, and played two truncated seasons, I think he said to himself in Houston, "I've got six rings, and I won't be winning the seventh here, so I'm just going to collect checks for a few more years and get out." (Which, in my book, could be the second team he'd quit on, but that's probably just my being a Rockets fan and pissed about Barkley getting hurt.)

In the one year he had without Jordan while a Bull, he won the All-Star MVP, and quit on his team in the playoffs. It's up to history, I guess, to decide which was more important. But, sadly, history will continue to look solely at the numbers. Do I think Pippen sucked? Don't be ignorant. Do I think he's a Top 100 player? Yeah, I certainly do. Do I think he's a Top 50 player? Eh...

That's all I'm saying.

..but he was a REALLY f*cking ugly man. Seriously.

the_ouskull

[Eielson]

..but he was a REALLY f*cking ugly man. Seriously.

I had a response to some of your other stuff until I read this. Can't help but get distracted...it's a fun topic.

http://creativebrief.thoughtdistrict.com/2009/06/the-20-ugliest-nba-players-of-all-time/

http://creativebrief.thoughtdistrict.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/fesenko11.jpg

[Collier11]

Noah will never be topped I dont think

[StoopTroup]

I never said Shaq was a bust...I said he was mediocre. I'll go as high as upper-mediocre if Skull will quit micro-analysing the Wilt vs Shaq deal too. I put Wilt in there with Dirk, Duncan and LeBron. Shaq is down the list from them at the upper-mediocre NBA almost a Franchise Player area.

[Scott D]

To me the Migraine game was probably worse for Pippen's rep than the 1.4 second game, because it established the pattern.

It's very safe to say he was one of the top players in his time period, but not top 50 all time. It's comparable to Carmelo Anthony being one of the top players today, but he won't be one of the top players of all time.

The Wilt and championship thing is always a bit strange. You got plenty of people that say that Wilt didn't win them because he was too selfish and cared more about his numbers. You have others who say he didn't win them because for whatever reason the Celtics were just better than the Warriors, and Russell for whatever reason was able to get into Wilt's head. Then there's Wilt's version which roughly says that his teammates deferred to him too much in the playoffs (primarily because of how they deferred to him during the season) and it made it easier for Boston to focus their defense on stopping their team and letting Wilt (to a point) get his numbers...Very similar to how teams approached the Lakers when Shaq was there in his prime (San Antonio and Detroit being the most successful at it).

[the_ouskull]

I never said Shaq was a bust...I said he was mediocre. I'll go as high as upper-mediocre if Skull will quit micro-analysing the Wilt vs Shaq deal too. I put Wilt in there with Dirk, Duncan and LeBron. Shaq is down the list from them at the upper-mediocre NBA almost a Franchise Player area.

I mean, seriously, are you just f*cking with me? Are you p*ss-drunk? Do you even LIKE basketball? Are you watching Shaq play NOW and thinking that he played and moved the same way 10 years ago?

The players you listed, in order: Duncan, Shaq, Wilt, LeBron, Dirk. Now, guess how I ordered them.

the_ouskull

[Collier11]

Shaq is a top 5 center all time, probably top 3. He is a top 20 player all time, close to top 10

[StoopTroup]

The Bulls, The Lakers or the Spurs never even really needed a center out there to hang all those titles either. Again even with a mediocre top 5 center you just don't need to hang franchise type dough on a guy you can't count on to make some damn free throws anymore. Shaq when he came out of College did make an impact as NBA Coaches were hard pressed to find anyone willing to be brutalized by him for an entire game. After time he wasn't able to play as many minutes and with the free throws and reduced PT he became less and less of an impact. Mediocre is so fitting for Shaq. The more I type it the easier it is to slip that size 24 or so shoe on his clod hopper feet.

[StoopTroup]

One of the guys I though was an incredible team player when I was a kid was John Havlicek of the Celtics. That guy could just go and go. Larry Bird reminded me of him when he was with the Celtics. The Celtics weren't the same team without Bird or Havlicek on the floor. Two great players that make Shaq look like a wannabe. Although Bill Russell and Sam Jones were great Celtics too, Havlicek was one of those guys you watched dominate the floor when he was on.

[tulsaoilerfan]

Hondo was the man when i was a kid; incredible player and the main reason i liked the Celtics

[Eielson]

The Bulls, The Lakers or the Spurs never even really needed a center out there to hang all those titles either.

The Bulls had Horace Grant. They lost Jordan, but they still managed to have a championship caliber team led by Pippen. The crucial blow was when they lost Horace Grant. Even when Jordan came back, they still couldn't win a championship without a post presence. Grant went to the Magic and teamed up with Shaq to lead the Magic to the finals, where they lost to Hakeem Olajuwon's team. Then the Bulls add Rodman and win three more championships. The Bulls decline, and then Robinson and Duncan team up to make the Spurs the best team. Robinson gets old and then the Lakers gain the advantage down low with Shaq. The Lakers then become the best team for several years until Shaq wants out. He goes to the Heat where they win a championship. Do you get the picture? You need a dominant post.

[the_ouskull]

Horace Grant was a power forward playing center, not unlike Tim Duncan, and around the same size. (Ho Grant may have even been, like, 6'9", 6'10" - and he was much more well-known for his defense and rebounding than he was any kind of post presence. (He was a career 11.2 point per game guy, with 15.1 being his peak in 1993-1994... the year Jordan was gone - and he averaged four and a half offensive boards that season, too, making most of his 15 per layups after offensive boards. His .540 TS% helps back that up, too...)

Also, the Bulls weren't a "championship caliber team" led by Pippen. They didn't win their division, even, and entered the playoffs as the 3rd seed. They were playing over their heads in taking the Knicks to seven. Kukoc as a rookie? The guy was soft 10 years in. As a rookie he was soft and dumb. Those Bulls weren't ready.

Back to Shaq...

Troop: If you are referring to Shaq NOW, then he is more than the epitome of mediocre. If you are referring to the Shaq that won titles and dunked on the world, then I am being completely serious when I say that I can no longer take your basketball mind seriously. If you're unable to look past the idiocy behind the man('s public persona) to see the game he had, then I can't respect your opinions on the sport. I'm sorry. It's not an indictment on you as a person. Just as someone who thinks they know something about basketball. If you think Shaq was a "mediocre" player "at best" during his NBA career, then that's dumb on a level I'm not equipped to deal with.

And the players above were listed in the order that they help(ed) their team win when it mattered. Duncan gets the nod over Shaq because even though they both have four rings, he was the best player on all of his championship teams and Shaq wasn't. (D-Wade was Miami's best player.) (And yes, I know Tony Parker won the Finals MVP during Duncan's last championship, but that was kinda meh, no?)

Also, I'd compare Hondo and Shaq's stats here just to be a d*ck, but they played very different positions, and Shaq's stats are better, almost across the board... Hondo averaged 1.8 more assists per game, 0.6 more steals, 0.8 fewer fouls, and 0.3 fewer turnovers, all while shooting a higher free throw percentage (although making fewer per game) and playing 1.4 more minutes per game.

However, Shaq's scoring, rebounding, blocks, field goal percentage, and defensive presence more than compensate for his lack of assisting.

Win Shares: Shaq - 179, Hondo 131.7. Jus' sayin'.

the_ouskull

[Eielson]

Horace Grant was a power forward playing center, not unlike Tim Duncan, and around the same size. (Ho Grant may have even been, like, 6'9", 6'10" - and he was much more well-known for his defense and rebounding than he was any kind of post presence. (He was a career 11.2 point per game guy, with 15.1 being his peak in 1993-1994... the year Jordan was gone - and he averaged four and a half offensive boards that season, too, making most of his 15 per layups after offensive boards. His .540 TS% helps back that up, too...)

Defensive post presence.


Also, the Bulls weren't a "championship caliber team" led by Pippen. They didn't win their division, even, and entered the playoffs as the 3rd seed. They were playing over their heads in taking the Knicks to seven. Kukoc as a rookie? The guy was soft 10 years in. As a rookie he was soft and dumb. Those Bulls weren't ready.


I didn't mean it necessarily that they were the favorites, but they were contenders. If it wasn't for that infamous game 5 call, the Bulls would've had a chance at winning it all. They replaced Grant with Jordan the next year and took a bit of a step back. It just shows that even Pippen and Jordan can't win championships with Will Perdue and Luc Longley in the post.

[Scott D]

umm.....I'm pretty sure that there were guys named Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley playing the center role in Chicago and Grant was playing as a PF.

[the_ouskull]

umm.....I'm pretty sure that there were guys named Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley playing the center role in Chicago and Grant was playing as a PF.

Ding, ding, ding.

See? Since Jordan and Kobe have both dominated within the system, people don't realize that the triangle offense is predicated around good post play. Not necessarily a dominant post... but good post play. I mean, the actual name of the Triangle is the "Triple Post Offense," faGodssake. The play(s) start(s) by looking for a strong-side post entry pass.

http://www.coachawinningteam.com/basketball_play_triangle/

And yes, Ho Grant was a four, not a five. Same thing in Orlando alongside Shaq. Eielson, why are you saying "defensive post presence" in regards to my Grant quote, and nothing else? I said he was a defensive post presence the snippet you quoted, even. Or are you saying that his defense was enough to qualify him as a presence...?

The Triangle offense is helped immensely by a "do-it-all" hard work kinda guy at the four. Ho Grant, Rodman, Odom, and, if you really want to start digging in deep... Kurt Rambis is trying, with very little success thus far, to implement the Triangle in Minnesota. Kevin Love, size issues aside, is PERFECT to play the post in the Triangle, if he can develop more of a back-to-the-basket offensive game, and the defensive footwork to stay out of foul trouble long enough to establish a good rhythm.

Now, I have to run. I just had a former player text me, telling me that they got into school, so I have to call them back. More later.

the_ouskull

[badger]

whoever ends up being Lebron's Pippen will enjoy a lot of jersey sales, a lot of kudos and a lot of rings.

that being said, being a Pippen is to be a sidekick, not a superstar. That would be good enough for me, and would have probably been good enough for Barkley if it meant getting rings, but Pippen himself didn't seem satisfied after six titles. He failed at being the star, so he'll always be known as being the sidekick.

[Scott D]

on a side note, Bill Cartwright had the funkiest jumper I've ever seen.

[Eielson]

He failed at being the star

They won over 50 games and would've had a shot at a championship if not for one of the most infamous calls in history. That was his only year, and it wasn't exactly failure. He also finished third in the MVP vote or something along those lines.

[texaspokieokie]

i like Russell.

23 reb/game over 13 seasons, but only 11 championships.(plus 2 in college)

[Eielson]

i like Russell.

23 reb/game over 13 seasons, but only 11 championships.(plus 2 in college)

I would expect a response like this from somebody with "texas" in their username.

Anyway, before I got distracted by the ugly discussion, I was going to bring something up about quitting on your team argument. If you guys think that tarnishes what Pippen did, what about the times that Kobe quit on his team?

[badger]

They won over 50 games and would've had a shot at a championship if not for one of the most infamous calls in history. That was his only year, and it wasn't exactly failure. He also finished third in the MVP vote or something along those lines.

Stars don't balk at not getting the winning shot called for them. His infamous "Sitting Bull" acts alone make him a sidekick, not a star.

[Eielson]

Stars don't balk at not getting the winning shot called for them. His infamous "Sitting Bull" acts alone make him a sidekick, not a star.

Once again I'm going to bring up Kobe. What do you make of the stories of Kobe crying and separating himself from his teammates right after championships? His extreme jealousy of Shaq is much worse than Pippen feeling he earned the right to take the final shot. A star player like Pippen isn't going to be a fan of having the ball taken of his hands and put in a rookie's. His being upset is completely understandable. Sitting out of the play was a bad decision, but his teammates quickly forgave him and they went on. It's not as big of a deal as it's made out to be.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

on a side note, Bill Cartwright had the funkiest jumper I've ever seen.

I spent a whole summer trying to emulate that shot and finally got it down to where I could hit it about 40 percent of the time...once school started, my coach ran it out of me after taking one in the first practice

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Speaking of the Bulls,

Does anybody remember who took the 1st shot in 99 percent of their games in the championship run era of Chicago?...Just kind of backs up Skull's point earlier?

[Scott D]

sheesh, still with the 1.4 second game argument?

PEOPLE WE MOCK PIPPEN IN DETROIT FOR THE MIGRAINE GAME.

[the_ouskull]

Once again I'm going to bring up Kobe. What do you make of the stories of Kobe crying and separating himself from his teammates right after championships? His extreme jealousy of Shaq is much worse than Pippen feeling he earned the right to take the final shot. A star player like Pippen isn't going to be a fan of having the ball taken of his hands and put in a rookie's. His being upset is completely understandable. Sitting out of the play was a bad decision, but his teammates quickly forgave him and they went on. It's not as big of a deal as it's made out to be.

Kobe v. Shaq, in retrospect, may very well have been Kobe saying, "Look, I'm the one that works out religiously, cares more about the game than the stuff outside of the game, and am considerably younger," while Shaq's response was probably something like, "Kobe, tell me how my *ss tastes."

With Kobe being the kind of player he is, the kind of leader (and he is, even if it's not always the "right" way, necessarily..) that is he, I can see where Shaq showing up overweight, goofing around, etc... for half of the regular season, resulting in a Finals loss to Detroit, mind you... (by the time the Sleeping Giant awoke, it was too little, too late)

..would irk him.

the_ouskull

[Collier11]

while Shaq's response was probably something like, "Kobe, tell me how my *ss tastes."



And what a response it was :D

[Eielson]

Kobe v. Shaq, in retrospect, may very well have been Kobe saying, "Look, I'm the one that works out religiously, cares more about the game than the stuff outside of the game, and am considerably younger," while Shaq's response was probably something like, "Kobe, tell me how my *ss tastes."

With Kobe being the kind of player he is, the kind of leader (and he is, even if it's not always the "right" way, necessarily..) that is he, I can see where Shaq showing up overweight, goofing around, etc... for half of the regular season, resulting in a Finals loss to Detroit, mind you... (by the time the Sleeping Giant awoke, it was too little, too late)

..would irk him.

the_ouskull

Game 1-
Shaq: 34 points (13-16 shooting), 11 rebounds
Kobe: 25 points (10-27), 4 assists, 4 rebounds

Game 2-
Shaq: 29 points (10-20), 7 rebounds
Kobe: 33 points (14-27), 7 assists, 4 rebounds

Game 3-
Shaq: 14 points (7-14), 8 rebounds
Kobe: 11 points (4-13), 5 assists, 3 rebounds

Game 4-
Shaq: 36 points (16-21), 20 rebounds
Kobe: 20 points (8-25), 2 assists, 0 rebounds

Game 5-
Shaq: 20 points (7-13), 8 rebounds
Kobe: 24 points (7-21), 4 assists, 3 rebounds

That finals loss was not on Shaq at all. In fact, it was basically everybody EXCEPT him. It had more to do with Kobe not being able to keep his **** to himself, and causing a ridiculous amount of distractions. The one game Kobe actually showed up to play, the Lakers won. It also helps that Detroit shot 171 free throws, compared to LA's 111 (+12 FT's per game for Detroit).

As for calling Shaq overweight, it's a bit of a stretch. Good luck finding somebody his size with a lower bodyfat that isn't on a ridiculous amount of steroids. Why does everybody make a big deal of this? Why don't people call out Paul Pierce? Pierce is just as soft as Shaq and half the size.

[texaspokieokie]

Eilson
"texas" is in my user name,only because that's where i live.

younger folks don't seem to realize that russell was one of the best.

thanx for at least responding to my previous post.

[Eielson]

Eilson
"texas" is in my user name,only because that's where i live.

younger folks don't seem to realize that russell was one of the best.

thanx for at least responding to my previous post.

How is this relevant?

[texaspokieokie]

early in this thread there was a list of top 5 all time.

someone said they weren't sure if russell belonged on the list.

i think he does.

i'm only a few weeks late.

otherwise,not relevant @ all.

[the_ouskull]

Define "younger folks," 'cause I'd go the other direction and say that "idiots" regardless of age, are the ones that don't realize how good Russell was. He was what basketball should be all about, all the time.

As for Shaq v. Kobe... Shaq played his arse off in the Detroit series, no doubt. I said as much. But, once Karl Malone went down, Shaq couldn't do it by himself, and considering that their next best rebounder was Slava Medvedenko with about 3 per game (I'm guessing) it wasn't really Kobe's fault either. Ben Wallce was cranking out about 4 offensive boards per game, and Detroit was out-rebounding L.A. by 12 per game. Other than that one factor, the rest of the series was fairly even. (Shaq's free throw shooting really did hurt L.A. in that series, though. Something else that Kobe ranted about a bit... while going 23/25 in that same series...) But, rebounding wasn't Kobe's responsibility... scoring was. He didn't do so very efficiently, but when Detroit rolled out Rip, and Tayshaun, and and even Lindsey Hunter a lil' bit, to guard Kobe, and L.A. responded with Gary Payton (35) on Chauncey (27), Karl Malone (40) on Rasheed (29), and Kobe chasing Rip through screens all day. Yeah, I can see where they'd be down in the series. Kobe could have shot better, sure, but he was the only person on that whole Lakers team capable of getting his own shot; getting decent looks without the help of his teammates. Having to chase around a player like Rip, through screen after screen (and Detroit's bigs set NICE screens, by the way) and then turn around and get chased the same way, by three different guys, on offense... Even Kobe wore down.

Keep in mind, I'm not a Kobe Lover. Usually, I'm the opposite. I'm just discussing the game.

the_ouskull

[texaspokieokie]

Compared to me, nearly everyone on this board is "younger folks".

[the_ouskull]

Well, don't keep us waiting, old man/woman. (If you're talking Russell, I'll assume man. :D)

I'm 36, and have loved basketball for about 50 years.

the_ouskull

[Eielson]

I agree that it wasn't Kobe fault, but it was more Kobe's than Shaq's. Those two were the only one's that really did anything for LA. Anyway, Kobe has quit on the Lakers. I believe it was Game 7 against the Suns where he took 3 shots. At least Pippen only quit for 1.8 seconds.

[the_ouskull]

Kobe > Pippen. He gets more of a pass. I don't like the rules, and I truly don't have a horse in this race (other than Pippen's face, amiright?) but I think that that's the way history will/does see it. I do.

the_ouskull

[Collier11]

I hate Kobe but that dude is wayyyyyyyyy better than Pipp

[My Opinion Matters]

I hate Kobe but that dude is wayyyyyyyyy better than Pipp

Except when it comes to championships. And the respect of his teammates. But who cares about those silly things?

[Collier11]

Except when it comes to championships. And the respect of his teammates. But who cares about those silly things?

Actually since Shaq left you hear that his Lakers teammates have the utmost respect for him. If you dont believe me go ask Derek Fisher, or Gasol, or Artest.

Also, Pipp played 2nd fiddle to the greatest basketball player ever to get his rings. Nice Try

And one more thing, Pipp still has 3 years on Kobe and Kobe may well win his 5th ring this year.

Now, go away as youve pissed me off, I hate defending Kobe, Barf!

[My Opinion Matters]

Collie <3 Kobe.

[Collier11]

shiiiiiitttttt, everyone knows that aint true

[stoops the eternal pimp]

do we?

[Collier11]

Im no Jlew, I dont hide my obsession with hours upon hours of attention :D

[Scott D]

*sigh* The Detroit gameplan that series was to give Shaq whatever leeway, and contain the other 4 guys on the floor. Eventually you knew it'd get to the point where Kobe'd start sulking and pouting enough that you knew he'd take bad shot after bad shot. Quite frankly if not for a 2 minute lapse mentally on defense, that series should have been a sweep.

[Eielson]

Actually since Shaq left you hear that his Lakers teammates have the utmost respect for him. If you dont believe me go ask Derek Fisher, or Gasol, or Artest.

Fisher never disrespects anybody, Gasol barely speaks the language, and bringing up Artest made me smile. Remember the Rockets vs. Lakers playoff series last year? Even if Artest didn't nearly rape Kobe, you're still get your character information from a guy who used to get drunk during halftime.

Even if these guys hate Kobe, you'll never hear them say it. If Kobe wants you gone, pack your bags. It doesn't matter if you're an all-time great center (5th leading scorer of all-time) or a mexican-hunting power forward (2nd all-time).


Also, Pipp played 2nd fiddle to the greatest basketball player ever to get his rings. Nice Try

When did Pippen play with Wilt?!?!

Anyway, Pippen played one of the all-time greats. So did Kobe.

[Collier11]

and Pippen doesnt sniff Kobes rapey balls, thats the point

[Collier11]

Fisher never disrespects anybody,

Fish had tears in his eyes talking about his love for his teammates, he singled out Kobe

Gasol barely speaks the language,

He knows what slanty eyes are though :D but honestly, he talks all the time about how much he loves Kobe

and bringing up Artest made me smile. Remember the Rockets vs. Lakers playoff series last year? Even if Artest didn't nearly rape Kobe, you're still get your character information from a guy who used to get drunk during halftime.


And Artest begged Kobe to get him to the Lakers after the season. Also, youve got it backwards, Artest only went after Kobe when Kobe elbowed him in the face and got a no call out of it


Even if these guys hate Kobe, you'll never hear them say it. If Kobe wants you gone, pack your bags. It doesn't matter if you're an all-time great center (5th leading scorer of all-time) or a mexican-hunting power forward (2nd all-time).

Not true, you used to hear alot about how Kobe was a bad teammate and ppl didnt like playing with him. That has changed

When did Pippen play with Wilt?!?!

Anyway, Pippen played one of the all-time greats. So did Kobe.

Wilt is not #1, sorry

[My Opinion Matters]

Someone start a Russell vs. Chamberlain thread. Collie, you do it. I'm too lazy.

[Collier11]

Im lazy too, you do it

[Scott D]

I'm sorry but "Gasol barely speaks the language" is just about the funniest **** in this thread. I'd bet his english skills far surpass yours.

[My Opinion Matters]

Im lazy too, you do it

Meh, I'll do it later. I don't feel like it right now.

[Collier11]

Ive got to work up the energy to go to the gym after work, that is going to take all of my will power

[My Opinion Matters]

Gym=jlew's bedroom.

[Eielson]

Gym=jlew's bedroom.

Nah, I think he's really talking about the gym. It doesn't take much will power for him to go to jlew's bedroom.

[Eielson]

I'm sorry but "Gasol barely speaks the language" is just about the funniest **** in this thread. I'd bet his english skills far surpass yours.

Hmm...perhaps it was a joke?

[Collier11]

Gym=jlew's bedroom.


Nah, I think he's really talking about the gym. It doesn't take much will power for him to go to jlew's bedroom.

He has soft hands, what can I say. Actually though, today im going to STEPs, he is more of a giver

[Eielson]

So what's the vote?

Me - yes
MOM - yes?
Skull - no?
Collier - no?

[the_ouskull]

Im no Jlew, I dont hide my obsession with hours upon hours of attention :D

STOP TALKING ABOUT LEBRON, IDIOT!

[the_ouskull]

I don't think Pippen is a better player than Kobe, overall, no. Defensively, yes. Offensively, no, and it's not even close offensively.

Pippen played with the Goat. Kobe played with one of the greatest centers of all time and one of the most dominant players of all time. By your "rings" logic, thought, Steve Kerr is a better player than Chris Paul, and Stacey King is a better player than Charles Barkley. Rings DO matter, but they're not the be-all, end-all. I think Kobe's four rings would school Pippen's six.

the_ouskull

[My Opinion Matters]

Just for the record, I can't stand Kobe, but I do feel he's the superior player to Pippen by a pretty decent margin. That's the nicest thing I'll ever say about Kobe.

[My Opinion Matters]

Scottie's such a hot topic that he spilled over to the Russell/Chamberlain thread, and that got me thinking more about My Favorite Martian (did he hang sheetrock with his face?) and how so many of the virtuous qualities I admire about Russell also apply to Scottie. Using the same the method I did to conclude why I preferred Russell over Chamberlain and applying this to Senor Baboonface I realized Scottie, in my opinion, is the third best player of his era. By "his era" I mean a very specific period of time. Pre-Shaq, Pre-Duncan, about the time Isaiah Thomas began to decline. Yep, I said third.

Here's my reasoning, if you're assembling a team from the early 90's for a single elimination, do-or-die game who are you picking? Jordan's first. Everyone knows that. Second? You need a dominant big man. Hakeem Olajuwon is the guy. But third, who do you pick third? Isaiah is fading. Fat Magic Johnson has AIDS. Larry Bird needs a walker to get to the arena. Clyde Drexler and Dominique Wilkins? Gtf outta here with that garbage. There's really only three choices here: Barkley, Malone, and Pippen. I gotta go with Pippen.

I find it interesting that the same people that CRUSH Pippen for not advancing to the Finals his one year without the greatest player ever give a free pass to Malone and Barkley. Exactly how many rings do Barkley and Malone have combined? Yeah, it's still zero. Scottie gets crushed for not winning a title one season but these guys get a free pass for their entire careers? Yeah, I gotta call bull****. Scottie gets the nod because he's entire freakin' career is a testament to the fact he understands and is willing to provide whatever his team needs for a victory. Scoring? He averaged over 20 ppg four different seasons. Rebounding? Averaged over 7 rpg five seasons. Ballhandling? Go back and watch the tapes, Scottie was the one bringing the ball up the court the majority of time for those Bulls championships teams. Defense? He's pretty much only the best perimeter defender ever. Just remember, every time you give the ball to Barkley or Malone you're taking out of the hands of two of the most dominant offensive forces ever. Scottie's defense alone trumps what Malone and Barkley can bring offensively. Neither one of them were great defenders. Neither one of them proved they could win the big one. Yeah, give me Scottie.

[the_ouskull]

No.

[Eielson]

That's two posts by skull in one thread that didn't end in the_ouskull.

[the_ouskull]

That's two posts by skull in one thread that didn't end in the_ouskull.

But yours did, so I'm good.

By the way, as long as I'm going to be living in your head as I obviously am, would you mind cleaning up the place a lil' bit, you sick f*ck?

the_ouskull