People crack me up

[Scott D]

So I'm at work today, and this woman comes into this store complaining about how every time her son has to turn in a report he has to get a new folder to turn it in. She's telling anyone that will listen about how awful this teacher is and how she can't afford to keep going and buying folders for her kid for school, and believes that according to a classmate of this kid that the teacher throws away these folders after the reports are graded and whatnot. Of course, it also comes out that the woman lost her job a bit ago so that's the main crux in her argument of how she can't afford to keep getting these folders (of which the kid has two), then as she's telling the cashier at the store her story, she asks for a pack of cigarettes.

The security guard and I just looked at each other trying not to laugh as this woman STILL kept ranting about all this stuff she couldn't afford. The poor kid (7th grader) looked like he wanted to crawl under the floor and hide. After she left, the guard and I started laughing a little bit, and talked about how silly it is to complain you can't afford 99 cent folders but have no problem buying a $7 pack of cigarettes for yourself.

My favorite was when she said she was ready to go to the school and act a fool in the classroom over the folders. We thought she clearly acted a fool in the store complaining about folders and buying smokes.

[silverwheels]

Seems about right.

[Leroy Lizard]

What about people on welfare but have numerous tattoos? Is that any different?

[SunnySooner]

I know, I seriously don't know how anyone but pretty well-off folks can afford to smoke these days. Even here in North FL, they are $6/pack. Though we're only about 45 minutes to the GA line, and they run about $3 or less/pack up there, maybe they just go and stock up.

If you smoke 2 packs/day, it's $12/day, $360/month, $4320/year.

That's a car payment, on a nice car!! It's a week on the beach at a NICE hotel. Or, if you paid an extra $360/month on a $150000, 30 year mortgage, you'd have it paid off in 16 years, and save $75,000 in interest. Wowza.

I wish they could make a pill or something that really helped people quit. Everyone I know who smokes wishes they didn't, but have never been able to quit. It's just crazy how fast $12/day adds up, and it's something most smokers either don't think about or ignore. But it's a LOT of money, and you have absolutely nothing to show for it.

[SicEmBaylor]

So I'm at work today, and this woman comes into this store complaining about how every time her son has to turn in a report he has to get a new folder to turn it in. She's telling anyone that will listen about how awful this teacher is and how she can't afford to keep going and buying folders for her kid for school, and believes that according to a classmate of this kid that the teacher throws away these folders after the reports are graded and whatnot. Of course, it also comes out that the woman lost her job a bit ago so that's the main crux in her argument of how she can't afford to keep getting these folders (of which the kid has two), then as she's telling the cashier at the store her story, she asks for a pack of cigarettes.

The security guard and I just looked at each other trying not to laugh as this woman STILL kept ranting about all this stuff she couldn't afford. The poor kid (7th grader) looked like he wanted to crawl under the floor and hide. After she left, the guard and I started laughing a little bit, and talked about how silly it is to complain you can't afford 99 cent folders but have no problem buying a $7 pack of cigarettes for yourself.

My favorite was when she said she was ready to go to the school and act a fool in the classroom over the folders. We thought she clearly acted a fool in the store complaining about folders and buying smokes.

I have no faith in humanity at all.

[yermom]

$7 dollars for cigarettes??

they still must not be expensive enough :D

[Breadburner]

What about people on welfare but have numerous tattoos? Is that any different?

They get em in jail...They are free....

[Leroy Lizard]

My question still stands. :D

[badger]

I just read a funny comment on freeloaders/moochers/cheapskates earlier today.

I admit, there were probably people in college that saw me as one at times, and if any are reading now, I can assure you that I wasn't being cheap, I just didn't have any money. It was actually kind of depressing at times - eating Ramen while the roommates were eating Sonic, getting badgered about buying stuff that I couldn't afford, etc.

I've found that one constant is that if you want something, there is money. If you don't want something, you forget your wallet, you don't pay, you get a raincheck, etc.

Alas, during my poor student days, I was wanting a lot less, because there just wasn't money to pay for it.

[olevetonahill]

Yall missing the point here
JM sells Folders fer a livin :D

[StoopTroup]

He without sin cast the 1st stone.

[Stitch Face]

*thunk*

[Crucifax Autumn]

This is why I smoke the $3.46 cigs or just buy Derringer little cigars for 15 bucks a carton.

[StoopTroup]

Calling something you stick in your mouth "derringer"...lol.

You've read the warning labels on smokes right? LOL!

:D ;)

[stoopified]

People will ALWAYS buy what they TRULY want,regardless of cost be it drugs,booze,cigarettes or whatever.

[Leroy Lizard]

The teacher is being somewhat unfair though. Although this lady can't really complain, a buck a folder every week adds up. $30 is a lot of money to some people.

But if you buy cigarettes, then we can only assume that you have plenty of cash.

[Scott D]

1. you are assuming that they had to buy a folder a week.
2. The way she described the story she told 7 times on her way to check out, the teacher had maybe 4-5 folders that year that her son had turned stuff in with.

[Leroy Lizard]

Tough on her.

[GottaHavePride]

OK, the first thing here is that when teachers grade assignments, hey hand the graded assignments back to the kids. So either the teacher IS being a d-bag and not giving the folders back, or the kid is just tossing them instead of bringing them home. (I tend to suspect option #2.)

Second thing - all those tattoos are probably do-it-yourself versions, and therefore don't cost anything except the medical bills to clean up the infections they get from non-sterile equipment.

[Leroy Lizard]

A do-it-yourself tramp stamp job would be interesting to watch.

[StoopTroup]

I'll send her 100 folders if she'll send us some naked pics of her smoking ciggies on that Teacher's front yard in a chaise lounge.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

It's sad for the children that any parent smokes cigarettes.

However the issue she didn't mention that needs to be mentioned is that a folder is window dressing. Just window dressing. It doesn't improve the quality of a report. Put a title page on top and staple the damned report. Any teacher who docks a kid's grade for not putting a report in a folder gets a thumbs down from me.

It's just like a math teacher who won't accept work written in blue or black ink, requiring answers written in pencil. A correct proof of the Pythagorean Theorem is no less valid if it's written in ink. Mathematically correct arguments should trump window dressing.

[Leroy Lizard]

It's sad for the children that any parent smokes cigarettes.

However the issue she didn't mention that needs to be mentioned is a folder is window dressing. It doesn't improve the quality of a report. Put a title page on top and staple the damned report. Any teacher who docks a kid's grade for not putting a report in a folder gets a thumbs down from me.

It's just like a math teacher who won't accept work written in blue or black ink, requiring answers written in pencil. A correct proof of the Pythagorean Theorem is no less valid if it's written in ink. Mathematically correct arguments should trump window dressing.

Agreed. I would extend your argument to include such trivialities as 1" margins, double-spaced, Times New-Roman, yadda, yadda, yadda. We need English teachers, not federal grant reviewers.

More than any subject, kids suffer in English because of a misplaced focus on minutiae (formatting, low-level punctuation/spelling, and so on).

[StoopTroup]

We need quailfied Parents to be able to audit the classes their kids are taking IMO. They should know exactly what is required to be done by these Teachers and be allowed in the Classrooms for unannounced visits. They should be given pre-written Scorecard type material for them to be able to judge the Teacher and the Course being offered.

The Teachers then can be rewarded accordingly by how high or low a score they get.

If enough Parents don't get pre-qualified in order for there to be enough visits/scores each quarter then College Students who are studying to be teachers could be hired to take the place of the Parents who are unable to devote their assistance to their Children and they should also be put in a higher tax bracket if they don't seek to be qualified. Eventually we can move to a system like Jury Duty where you're required to serve and become qualified to audit classes/teachers.

[Leroy Lizard]

We need quailfied Parents to be able to audit the classes their kids are taking IMO. They should know exactly what is required to be done by these Teachers and be allowed in the Classrooms for unannounced visits.

There is a certain group out there that won't allow such visits. And what group might that be?

[Jacie]

Unless you homeschool your children, you have no room to criticize teachers.

If you do homeschool, feel free to criticize yourself all you want.

There are exceptions to this rule, obviously, such as teachers who have broken laws put in place to protect children. But the vast majority of teachers are people who are in the profession because they truly care about seeing students learn, about helping them become adult, about pointing them in the right direction.

Anyone who has an idea on how to improve the teaching profession, please become a teacher and implement your idea(s). If it works, I can assure you other teachers will eagerly adopt your method(s).

If the only way you feel you can improve things is by posting on an internet forum, then truly you are living on the wrong planet, are gifted beyond belief and the rest of us can only stare in awe at your greatness . . .

[sooner59]

A do-it-yourself tramp stamp job would be interesting to watch.

How about a tramp stamp that reads, "do-it-yourself"... :D

[Leroy Lizard]

Unless you homeschool your children, you have no room to criticize teachers.

That's like saying: "Unless you build houses, you have no room to criticize carpenters."

Damn that.


There are exceptions to this rule, obviously, such as teachers who have broken laws put in place to protect children. But the vast majority of teachers are people who are in the profession because they truly care about seeing students learn, about helping them become adult, about pointing them in the right direction.


It's great that they care. But I also want to know if they are any good at it.

The carpenter who builds a home may really, really want to do a good job. But that isn't all that's required, is it?

In fact, I would rather have the skilled carpenter that just goes about his business than the unskilled carpenter who has the best intentions.


Anyone who has an idea on how to improve the teaching profession, please become a teacher and implement your idea(s). If it works, I can assure you other teachers will eagerly adopt your method(s).

Your assurances mean nothing because it isn't always true.

And your statement points to a fundamental flaw in the teaching profession. The notion that only teachers can criticize teachers is ridiculous. Imagine if cops said that. Or politicians. Or anyone else for that matter.

"British Petroleum today responded to criticism of their safety record. `Those that think they can do better are perfectly welcome to become petroleum engineers.'"

[Leroy Lizard]

How about a tramp stamp that reads, "do-it-yourself"... :D

By the time the guy sees it, he probably has no plans on doing IT himself.

[47straight]

Unless you homeschool your children, you have no room to criticize teachers.

If you do homeschool, feel free to criticize yourself all you want.

There are exceptions to this rule, obviously, such as teachers who have broken laws put in place to protect children. But the vast majority of teachers are people who are in the profession because they truly care about seeing students learn, about helping them become adult, about pointing them in the right direction.

Anyone who has an idea on how to improve the teaching profession, please become a teacher and implement your idea(s). If it works, I can assure you other teachers will eagerly adopt your method(s).

If the only way you feel you can improve things is by posting on an internet forum, then truly you are living on the wrong planet, are gifted beyond belief and the rest of us can only stare in awe at your greatness . . .


I pay taxes. I have every ****ing place to criticize teachers.

[oklaclarinet]

Agreed. I would extend your argument to include such trivialities as 1" margins, double-spaced, Times New-Roman, yadda, yadda, yadda. We need English teachers, not federal grant reviewers.

More than any subject, kids suffer in English because of a misplaced focus on minutiae (formatting, low-level punctuation/spelling, and so on).

I would call that attention to detail. You might have the most brilliant writing in the world, but if it can't be read because of poor spelling and punctuation, no one will care. That IS something kids need to be taught.

[Leroy Lizard]

I pay taxes. I have every ****ing place to criticize teachers.

Let me put this a little more gently.

We are members of the community who, through our taxes, hire people to do a job. We want the job done well. We have the right to inquire into how well the job is being performed.

It's not the teacher's classroom; it's OUR classroom. We simply provide the classroom to the teacher so that he or she can teach our children.*

On the flip side, entering a classroom can be disruptive, so we can't just barge in any time we want. To a do good job, teachers need a reasonable assurance that they will be allowed to teach with an oversight that is reasonable. After all, we're trying to find out if there are systematic problems with instruction so we can offer suggestions for improvement. We're not trying to catch the teacher in a mistake.


* Now I have that **** damn song of Crosby, Stills, and Nash in my head.

[StoopTroup]

If it wasn't for all the bad teachers our Country wouldn't be in this mess and now we have current teachers who are experts at everything and master of nothing.

[Leroy Lizard]

If it wasn't for all the bad teachers our Country wouldn't be in this mess and now we have current teachers who are experts at everything and master of nothing.

I'm glad you're not referring to me.

[StoopTroup]

I figured you didn't need any help pointing out your inadequacies. You've got plenty of posts that do that.

[Leroy Lizard]

And I cry every night thinking about it.

[GrapevineSooner]

Unless you homeschool your children, you have no room to criticize teachers..

I trust come football season, you won't question any of the playcalls from the coaching staff.

Afterall, you're not a D1 coach.

See how stupid that logic sounds?

[the_ouskull]

We need quailfied Parents to be able to audit the classes their kids are taking IMO. They should know exactly what is required to be done by these Teachers and be allowed in the Classrooms for unannounced visits. They should be given pre-written Scorecard type material for them to be able to judge the Teacher and the Course being offered.

The Teachers then can be rewarded accordingly by how high or low a score they get.

As a teacher, I'd be down for this if it meant 1) getting rid of the cancers that keep my pay scale at poverty levels by squatting in a classroom and throwing up a shield to protect them from the kids they are increasingly losing their ability to both deal with AND teach. 2) you'd alter the second half of that. Like it or not, yes, many college students are smarter than many uneducated parents... but they aren't in any position to "grade" teachers until they have done it themselves. If ANYTHING, you'd have to modify it to graduate students. But, in all seriousness, if you're a third or fourth year undergrad, and have taken college seriously, then you're better qualified to sub than most of the people that do it now. HOWEVER, that doesn't make you qualified to evaluate a classroom.

I think that the proper training would cost more than the initial benefits. It would have to be a volunteer program, all-around, for the first probably five or so years of its inception, and, in these times, those don't last.

I just think about the community in which I live; a community in which KIDS are often smarter, or at least more socially conscious, than their parents. I don't want some barely high-school-educated mooks trying to evaluate my classroom presense because, like their high school teachers before them, part of my classroom demeanor requires biting commentary and quelling fires before they spark. These are incredibly effective tools against students, but some parents, having been poor students themselves, may see those methods and have 'Nam flashbacks to their own days in the classroom, and "neg" me on their report because of it, thinking that their own aged attention span mirrors that of their children.

Also, the various teacher's unions would NEVER go for having someone in the classroom; much less someone whose qualifications to adequately judge a teacher's performance could be called into question by many of the students, much less the teachers themselves.

the_oukull

[jkjsooner]

I would call that attention to detail. You might have the most brilliant writing in the world, but if it can't be read because of poor spelling and punctuation, no one will care. That IS something kids need to be taught.

We shouldn't forget spelling and grammar but we should put it in perpective. I had an English teach who would lower the letter grade on a term paper for every punctuation mistake. What that taught me was to write in the most simplistic terms possible and take my B. That is not the way to teach creativity in writing.

Teachers shouldn't accept horribly written reports full of sentence fragments misspelling but they also shouldn't stifle creative or ambitious writing.

[the_ouskull]

Oh, and I'm ignoring a lot of the other comments I've seen in this thread. I DO teach, and I'm pretty good at it, according to my kids, the schools for whom I've worked, the parents of my kids, and the test scores of the kids I've taught. I feel fairly safe in the classroom; I wouldn't even really sweat the ignorant types - like many who have chimed in during this thread - auditing my classroom.

But I'll always find time for a rebuttal.

In the meantime, let me go ahead, and, in the spirit of the original post, share a few more things that "crack me up." (And by "crack me up," I mean, "Make me want to cry on a daily basis.")

-----

As a country, we have brain issues...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/sichuevos/PalinsPolicies.jpg

Weight issues...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/sichuevos/IHateFatAmerica.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/sichuevos/IHateAmerica.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/sichuevos/FatChicksThinChicks.jpg

...and "issues," period...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/sichuevos/IHateAmericans.jpg

...and all of this is before I get into the state of the English language, and how our country is being "dummied-down" by lax language usage becoming not only acceptable in common parlance, but also (semi-gradually) in our schools. I have actually had to waste days in the classroom telling students that, for every "OMFG" or "LOL" or smiley face, or some such crap that I find in their work, I will take off infinity points from their assignment grade, and will treat them like the idiots that they are for the rest of their lives.

I'm just kidding. I only took off a letter grade. For each incidence.

It could be worse, though. They could be going to OSU for an education...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/sichuevos/OSUstudentsaredumb.jpg

the_ouskull

[the_ouskull]

We shouldn't forget spelling and grammar but we should put it in perpective. I had an English teach who would lower the letter grade on a term paper for every punctuation mistake. What that taught me was to write in the most simplistic terms possible and take my B. That is not the way to teach creativity in writing.

Teachers shouldn't accept horribly written reports full of sentence fragments misspelling but they also shouldn't stifle creative or ambitious writing.

It's also hard to foster creative and ambitious writing when we're having to tell the kid sitting next to the budding John Grisham that periods are required at the end of statements. The government has taken away the sole, semi-effective deterrent by implementing NCLB and preventing teachers from simply flunking the idiots that don't try. Few things will get your *ss in gear, or out of school and into the job market, faster than sitting in a classroom full of kids a year (or two) younger than you as they stare at your stupid *ss for actually failing a class in high school. And, if it doesn't work, the "zoo" effect is at least motivational for any kids in the class thinking about slacking off. ("Yeah, keep trying to turn in work late. I'll let you sit next to Mongo back there next year.")

I had a student who, while a senior in high school (and they graduated, too) was taking 12th, 11th, and 10th grade English. I know that they didn't pass my class, yet, somehow, walked in May. I have, at another school, too, seen a junior who was taking 9th, 10th, and 11th grade English. They were also still allowed to take electives - and somehow remained athletically eligible too. At least they weren't left behind, though, right? (God, it's like every single day, something else happens to remind me how little Bush knew about running a country...)

There are a lot bigger problems with our education system than how the teachers are teaching... but fewer things would be a quicker fix than to hire competent teachers to replace the ones that checked out years ago and are just check-collecting now.

the_ouskull

[Leroy Lizard]

I would call that attention to detail. You might have the most brilliant writing in the world, but if it can't be read because of poor spelling and punctuation, no one will care. That IS something kids need to be taught.

I always ask myself, "What is the purpose of this assignment"? Large-scale paragraph structure or low-level punctuation? My grading must reflect this purpose.

If I correct every mistake I see, I am no longer acting as a teacher but as an editor. Correcting spelling does not teach students how to spell. (How many times do students turn in similar assignments later with the same spelling errors?)

If a student gets a paper back and the teacher has "bled" all over it, he will quit trying. Worse, he will not have practiced the basic lesson (e.g., paragraph structure) because the constant harping over niggling mistakes shifts his focus.

So here's what I do: I draw a line under the fifth sentence and only correct low-level mistakes to that point. I then tell the student that he has made more mistakes below that point and must correct them for the final version.

[Leroy Lizard]

It's also hard to foster creative and ambitious writing when we're having to tell the kid sitting next to the budding John Grisham that periods are required at the end of statements. The government has taken away the sole, semi-effective deterrent by implementing NCLB and preventing teachers from simply flunking the idiots that don't try. Few things will get your *ss in gear, or out of school and into the job market, faster than sitting in a classroom full of kids a year (or two) younger than you as they stare at your stupid *ss for actually failing a class in high school. And, if it doesn't work, the "zoo" effect is at least motivational for any kids in the class thinking about slacking off. ("Yeah, keep trying to turn in work late. I'll let you sit next to Mongo back there next year.")

I had a student who, while a senior in high school (and they graduated, too) was taking 12th, 11th, and 10th grade English. I know that they didn't pass my class, yet, somehow, walked in May. I have, at another school, too, seen a junior who was taking 9th, 10th, and 11th grade English. They were also still allowed to take electives - and somehow remained athletically eligible too. At least they weren't left behind, though, right? (God, it's like every single day, something else happens to remind me how little Bush knew about running a country...)

NCLB was not authored by Bush. In fact, some of your own cronies wrote it, including Ted Kennedy. It had wide support from both parties, and still does I suppose.

NCLB does not prevent teachers from flunking students, btw.

The problem with NCLB was that teachers considered it a Republican thang. So naturally it had to be bad. But if you think Arne Duncan is opposed to massive school accountability, you are sadly mistaken. The silly notion that Obama is going to save the day for school teachers is a big joke being played on our educational establishment.

[OU_Sooners75]

Smoking is a nasty habit. I know, I smoke.

With that said, a story like this does seem kind of crazy. If my children needed anything, if it were the price of a pack of cigs or less, I would not bitch. I would buy my kids stuff before buying a pack of cigarettes, especially if it is for school.

But someone to laugh and joke about what this woman was doing and then buys a pack of cigarettes is not appropriate behavior either.

Smoking is an addiction. Many people that smoke, that does not have the will power or the want to stop on their own, cannot just stop.

Cigarettes are far more deadly and addictive than Marijuana or alcohol.

Me personally, if I were her, I would not have bitched about it. I would not have bought the cigarettes either. I would have taken the price of a pack of cigs and bought all the folders I could with that money. But that is just me.

[85Sooner]

It just burns me up seeing women at the store using wac cards for food and handing the card to the cashier with a 60$ nail job.

[the_ouskull]

LL: Try to read things that are written through your eyes and not the glasses of whatever your political agenda is.

I don't consider NCLB a Republican thing. (Even though a Republican president passed it... a year after taking office. If you want to blame Obama for the deficit, then you'd better give Bush credit for NCLB's failures, too...) I DO, however, consider it a failure, regardless how much of Teddy's fat *ss got wiped onto it.

- It allows districts to set their own standards. Kids aren't passing? That's fine. Lower the requirements. NOW they're passing. See? Kids are passing, the system works. Ignore what happens to them in college. They're not the government's problem at that point...

- "Teaching to the test." Instead of teaching kids how to think, schools are now being forcequired to teach them how to test. BIG difference. I can show you 1000 different pictures of a coat, but if you're too f*cking stupid to put one on when it's raining, have I failed, or have you? Who cares? Either way, the floor's wet.

- The schools with the worst "problem students" are the ones that get help (funding, etc...) taken away, rather than get additional help from the government? What the f*ck is that? That's what's happening to electives. It's not JUST the recession that's killing electives. In a school in which I've taught, I've seen over 100 students take music appreciation - which, at this school, consists of a bunch of kids who are too rowdy for any other classes, sitting in the band hall for an hour while the teacher wishes that wanting to die could actually finish you. When schools don't have money, it gets WORSE, not better.

- NCLB focuses primarily on English and math education. This is happening to the detriment of other subjects, and it's not just happening in "chocolate cities," either. http://www.kwtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=11141949

- It allows military recruiters the same access to students that college recruiters have. The message: "Flunking out now is okay, 'cause we're not college. We'll still give you a job." You want to "fix" that system, don't allow the military to accept non-graduates. Then we'll see if they start spending some of that money on education instead of cleaning up another storm in the desert.

- I haven't even touched on the lack of adequate funding to try to make it work in the first place. Don't implement a federal plan; one that has an effect on each state individually, and expect the states to not try their *sses off to "game the system." How much of the lottery money do Oklahoma schools (currently 47th or 49th out of 50) get, anyway? I thought it was supposed to be "a lot," not "an afterthought."

Basically, NCLB has relegated the smart kids to sitting in classrooms with nothing to challenge them, and the dumb kids to sitting in rooms, endlessly preparing for tests that they will likely never pass. And, even if they DO pass, so what? Congrats. You were taught to puke up the correct answers for THAT test. Now, who was the first President of the U.S.?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

Exactly...

the_ouskull

Post Script -- For the longest time, I thought Duncan's first name was A-m-e, not A-r-n-e. That's when I first started thinking, "Maybe my eyes ARE getting worse as I get older..."

[StoopTroup]

Also, the various teacher's unions would NEVER go for having someone in the classroom; much less someone whose qualifications to adequately judge a teacher's performance could be called into question by many of the students, much less the teachers themselves.

the_oukull

But that's the beauty of my plan...everyone would be qualified. Pre-qualified and the Unions would have to agree to my plan as I am a 20 year Union paying dues employee who tells them what I think they will do so as when StoopTroup speaks....Unions **** themselves. :D :D :pop:

[OU_Sooners75]

It just burns me up seeing women at the store using wac cards for food and handing the card to the cashier with a 60$ nail job.


That $60 nail job could have been done at home from about $10 in products.

[StoopTroup]

^ or from turning tricks.

[Leroy Lizard]

[quote]- It allows districts to set their own standards. Kids aren't passing? That's fine. Lower the requirements. NOW they're passing. See? Kids are passing, the system works. Ignore what happens to them in college. They're not the government's problem at that point...

NCLB does not require schools to pass students who should have failed. Artificially raising graduation rates is tantamount to cheating. We complain when students ask their friends to write essays for them, then we turn around and pull off similar cheap stunts to raise graduation rates.

So why complain about student plagiarism? It's the same thought process with the same results.


- "Teaching to the test." Instead of teaching kids how to think, schools are now being forcequired to teach them how to test. BIG difference. I can show you 1000 different pictures of a coat, but if you're too f*cking stupid to put one on when it's raining, have I failed, or have you? Who cares? Either way, the floor's wet.

You can't teach students how to think and teach them content at the same time?

There is nothing on the state test that your students shouldn't know. Therefore, you need to teach it. If you want to call that "teaching to the test," so be it.

If you want to point out something on the latest state test that you didn't think needed teaching, go for it.


- The schools with the worst "problem students" are the ones that get help (funding, etc...) taken away, rather than get additional help from the government?

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. The latest round of school improvement grants (which are aimed at the lowest performing schools) gives them up to $2 million per each to implement reform. So exactly how are schools losing their funding by performing badly? (I'm not that knowledgeable about school funding so I ask seriously, not rhetorically.)

Title I and Title II are still funded, right? Hasn't federal spending on education increased as well?


- NCLB focuses primarily on English and math education. This is happening to the detriment of other subjects, and it's not just happening in "chocolate cities," either. http://www.kwtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=11141949

Again, NCLB does not require schools to drop science and auto shop. Those actions were taken by schools looking for a shortcut to high achievement. Like cheating on a test, the shortcuts don't work in the long run.


Basically, NCLB has relegated the smart kids to sitting in classrooms with nothing to challenge them, and the dumb kids to sitting in rooms, endlessly preparing for tests that they will likely never pass.

No, SCHOOLS have. Nothing in NCLB requires this.

[the_ouskull]

Once again... Stop reading the letter of the law and go look at a few different schools in a few different communities. I've seen it all. What the laws say and what can actually work, for the majority of the schools in the U.S., are two different things.

You're pretending to be ignorant of the differences between the intent and the execution of the law, and that's unfortunate because it's people like you that ignore the issues with the law for too long to fix it; or refuse to admit they're there altogether.

In order to cover all of the material necessary to prepare kids for college, or at the very least, LIFE, all teachers, in all subjects, need to make a concerted effort. But, secondary schools don't care about preparing kids for college unless doing so makes them look good. They only care about whether or not they look good. If they "cheat on the test" as you put it, they don't care. Yes, it's hypocritical, but it's also sad that many schools feel that that is what it has come to.

It's hard to make a 17 year-old kid with a full-time job from a family with no education, no job, and no support system of any kind care about school. But that kid counts against a school's test scores just as much as Suzie Straight-A counts for them. And guess which kid makes up the majority of most public schools...?

As for the funding issue, the same Ted Kennedy you tried to toss out there earlier was the one that also said: "It's sad that the changes are finally in place, but the money to fund them isn't," or something to that effect.

The biggest problem, to me, though, is that we are now teaching kids test-taking and not critical thought. I was showing students a video a couple of years ago. I had just finished Shakespeare with all of my classes, and was showing them Hamlet. During one of my earlier classes, the school principal pulled me out of my classroom and asked me, verbatim, if this "movie" was "on the test."

Our entire education system needs an overhaul, from top to bottom. NCLB is just its most recent skid mark.

the_ouskull

[Leroy Lizard]

Once again... Stop reading the letter of the law and go look at a few different schools in a few different communities. I've seen it all. What the laws say and what can actually work, for the majority of the schools in the U.S., are two different things.

You're pretending to be ignorant of the differences between the intent and the execution of the law, and that's unfortunate because it's people like you that ignore the issues with the law for too long to fix it; or refuse to admit they're there altogether.

In order to cover all of the material necessary to prepare kids for college, or at the very least, LIFE, all teachers, in all subjects, need to make a concerted effort. But, secondary schools don't care about preparing kids for college unless doing so makes them look good. They only care about whether or not they look good. If they "cheat on the test" as you put it, they don't care. Yes, it's hypocritical, but it's also sad that many schools feel that that is what it has come to.

It's hard to make a 17 year-old kid with a full-time job from a family with no education, no job, and no support system of any kind care about school. But that kid counts against a school's test scores just as much as Suzie Straight-A counts for them. And guess which kid makes up the majority of most public schools...?

Fine. But don't blame NCLB if the schools (not the law) are the ones taking the cheap way out.

You assign an essay. Some students look at your essay and think, "It's too hard. I can't do it. But I need to look good so I can get into college (or play sports). So I'll cheat."

Schools look at NCLB requirements. "They're too hard. But we need to look good so that we don't face accountability sanctions. So we'll cheat."

And when we catch students, we get all pissed off at them. Why? They're not doing anything our schools aren't doing!

Is your assignment to blame for the cheating? That's the argument you are using when you blame NCLB for the loss of auto shop and art.


As for the funding issue, the same Ted Kennedy you tried to toss out there earlier was the one that also said: "It's sad that the changes are finally in place, but the money to fund them isn't," or something to that effect.

Ted Kennedy was going to bellyache about the lack of school funding no matter what. That was his schtick. Rather than rely on Ted Kennedy (which was always dangerous), let's look at the actual expenditures. Do you have any basis for stating that funding levels in education have dropped?

Is your school Title I? Has its Title I funding dropped? What about Title II?

Let's talk real money here, not just quote a fruitcake politician.


The biggest problem, to me, though, is that we are now teaching kids test-taking and not critical thought. I was showing students a video a couple of years ago. I had just finished Shakespeare with all of my classes, and was showing them Hamlet. During one of my earlier classes, the school principal pulled me out of my classroom and asked me, verbatim, if this "movie" was "on the test."

What are the skills and topics learned from reading Shakespeare? Many of those are on the test. Therefore, reading and discussing Shakespeare offers an excellent vehicle for learning those skills and topics.

English is not just reading one classic book after another. A student can read the entire works of Shakespeare and not understand a damn thing about English. It's what you DO with Shakespeare that counts, not simply knowing what took place in the story.

[the_ouskull]

If I keep waiting, will a point appear? Was it written in lemon juice? Do I need to hold a light bulb next to my screen...?

I know, rather well, in fact, what constitutes "good teaching" as far as English goes... and Shakespeare, for that matter.

I'm open to discussing funding. I'm sure that the numbers have been manipulated, though. Tends to happen when the government is involved. The whole "since it's not their money to start with, they have to account for it" thing. But, if education was at a premium, then wouldn't more schools be hiring teachers right now and fewer schools cutting them? I guarantee you I can find more "cutbacks made" articles than "new teachers hired" articles.

All you ever hear is how badly "we need teachers." As a teacher, I ask, "Who is we? 'cause I need work, and I'm pretty f*ckin' good at what I do."

As for spending, etc... the "financials of it all," this isn't a bad read. I don't know whether or not it supports the argument, because I'm still reading it, but I wanted to go ahead and post it before I forget what I'm doing and go make dinner.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/backgrounders/school_funding.html

the_ouskull

[olevetonahill]

If I keep waiting, will a point appear? Was it written in lemon juice? Do I need to hold a light bulb next to my screen...?

If yer waitin on limptard, No way ya ever get a point

I know, rather well, in fact, what constitutes "good teaching" as far as English goes... and Shakespeare, for that matter.

I'm open to discussing funding. I'm sure that the numbers have been manipulated, though. Tends to happen when the government is involved. The whole "since it's not their money to start with, they have to account for it" thing. But, if education was at a premium, then wouldn't more schools be hiring teachers right now and fewer schools cutting them? I guarantee you I can find more "cutbacks made" articles than "new teachers hired" articles.

All you ever hear is how badly "we need teachers." As a teacher, I ask, "Who is we? 'cause I need work, and I'm pretty f*ckin' good at what I do."

As for spending, etc... the "financials of it all," this isn't a bad read. I don't know whether or not it supports the argument, because I'm still reading it, but I wanted to go ahead and post it before I forget what I'm doing and go make dinner.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/backgrounders/school_funding.html

the_ouskull


:eek:

[Leroy Lizard]

If I keep waiting, will a point appear? Was it written in lemon juice? Do I need to hold a light bulb next to my screen...?

I know, rather well, in fact, what constitutes "good teaching" as far as English goes... and Shakespeare, for that matter.

As for the point, I have been clear: You blame NCLB for pushing education in the wrong direction. I am saying that the educational system acted like a dumb jock when it finally faced real accountability.

And I wasn't trying to imply that you didn't know how to teach English. So instead, why not look at this way: If your principal is shortchanging the learning process by compelling you teach the wrong way, that's on him not NCLB.

NCLB established standards. Whenever standards are established, people why try to find ways to shortchange the system. Students do this when they cheat. Schools do this when they take shortcuts. The standards aren't the problem. It's just bad planning.

We teach students to do things the right way and not take the easy way out. "Study now, don't wait until the last moment." "Do your own work, even if it means getting a lower grade." "Plan carefully and think long-term." But we don't even follow our own advice.

As for funding, I think we can all agree that education is funded lower than we would like. But it has always been that way since Sputnik. Bush (who I think was a pretty lousy president) gets unfairly criticized on this matter. For all his faults, he took education more seriously than any of his predecessors. And I certainly think the US Department of Education was in better hands under Bush than Obama.

The article, btw, describes the inequities between the states, not the overall spending as a function of year. So it isn't really pertinent to this conversation.