Saban vs Meyer...

[Soonermagik]

Who's the better coach?

Saban has proven to be a solid recruiter and really good at assembling a great staff. He's won a title at 2 different schools, showing he's very versatile.

Meyer has shown to be a pure winner. He did it at Utah and is on his way to making Florida a dynasty. If Meyer can keep his health and attitude in check he may be a top 10 coach of all time.

[Collier11]

Right now id go with Saban simply because he has made two fledgling programs into powerhouses and won 2 natl titles with 2 avg QBs.

Meyer is great but im interested to see if he sustains his level of success without Tebow cus lets face it, as much as alot of us hate to admit it, Tebow is/was a once a decade type college QB.

[JLEW1818]

Saban.

[Collier11]

I just said that

[Soonermagik]

I do admire that Saban won with 2 below average QB's. Anyone that could get Jamarcus to focus for more than 2 seconds is an amazing coach.

However, we all admit that Tebow was a better leader than a QB. Meyer also won with Chris Leak who struggled a great deal before Meyer showed up.

[Collier11]

Jamarcus didnt play for Saban did he? Dont think so, Saban left after the 04 season and Russells college career really didnt take off til 05 or 06

[starclassic tama]

meyer has had some great quarterback play no doubt, he had alex smith at utah too...

[oudavid1]

Who's the better coach?

Tebow.

[Salt City Sooner]

Matt Mauck was Saban's QB when he beat us for the NC @ LSU.

Oh, & my vote is for Saban. IMO, Charlie Strong deserves every bit as much credit for UF's NC's as Meyer.

[gaylordfan1]

Saban.

+1

[ouleaf]

Saban. Definitely Saban.

[KantoSooner]

I think this argument was settled in last year's SEC title game. Saban gutted Meyer like a Chinese torture artist. Dominated every aspect of the game, including being inside Meyer's head to the point where Meyer damn near died as a result.
Saban owns Meyer from now on.

[boomermagic]

Saban

[SoonerDood]

I think this argument was settled in last year's SEC title game. Saban gutted Meyer like a Chinese torture artist. Dominated every aspect of the game, including being inside Meyer's head to the point where Meyer damn near died as a result.
Saban owns Meyer from now on.

^THIS

[OU_Sooners75]

Saban...because he has actually won 3 National Championships...2 at LSU...though the second one he was not the actual coach that year.


Miles would not have won an NC at LSU had it not been for Saban!

[TXBOOMER]

I think Saban is easily the best coach right now.

[Jacie]

And we haven't seen the last of this one. If Florida meets and beats Bama in the SEC title game this year, the scales will tilt back to Urban.

[southern sooner]

saban

[Eielson]

I love this. If we made a thread last year, it would've been just like this, except with everybody saying Meyer.

Anyways, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, but I would lean slightly towards Meyer. The whole Tebow thing is nonsense. Even if he was responsible for the last national championship team (which he wasn't), Meyer won one with Chris Leak. As for the versatility argument, has everybody forgotten what Meyer did at Utah?

[Collier11]

With a great QB at Utah, and the 1st natl title run Tebow played on all the short yardage and goal line situations

[Collier11]

Again, thats why I said that im interested to see what Meyer does with Brantley. If they get back to being a legit top 5 team this yr or next, it will even out for me.

Now, if Stoops can put together an undefeated season this yr and wins it all, I might pick him :D

[Eielson]

With a great QB at Utah, and the 1st natl title run Tebow played on all the short yardage and goal line situations

What has Alex Smith done in the pros? Ever thought Meyer might've been part of the reason Smith was so good in college? Doesn't matter anyway. Plenty of teams have good quarterbacks.

I really don't care that Tebow played on short yardage situations. Chris Leak was Meyer's quarterback.

[Collier11]

Hasnt this argument been put to bed 100 times, how in the hell does it matter what Smith does in the pros? As a collegiate QB he was the best in the country that year

[Eielson]

Hasnt this argument been put to bed 100 times

Yes. All of which concluded that Leak was the starting quarterback for Florida during Meyer's first national championship. I don't see why this is so hard for you.


how in the hell does it matter what Smith does in the pros? As a collegiate QB he was the best in the country that year

If he was such a stud that no matter what situation he was put in he would succeed, why is it that he can't do anything in the pros?

[Collier11]

Are you really posing this question? Should be common knowledge by now, often times great collegiate QBs dont translate to the NFL, again, how does this matter in the college game?

You never disappoint...

[Eielson]

Are you really posing this question? Should be common knowledge by now, often times great collegiate QBs dont translate to the NFL, again, how does this matter in the college game?

Name something Alex Smith did without Meyer and I'll go along with your nonsense about Meyer not being an important part of Utah's success.

Just so you know, Alex Smith was a 2-star quarterback on rivals and had two D-1 offers. One offer was from his uncle at Louisville, and the other was Urban Meyer.

[Collier11]

I never said Meyer wasnt a big part of it, in fact, the only statement I ever made regarding meyer at Utah is that when he was at Utah he had Alex Smith at QB.

Big deal, Bradford was a 3 star, Heupel a 2 star, star ratings dont matter much.

[Salt City Sooner]

Smith & Utah had a ton of help from their schedule that year. The only team they played that year that won as many as 8 games was Pitt in the bowl game, & they were so good that 2 of their 3 pre-bowl losses were to a 5-6 Nebraska team (in Pittsburgh), & a 6-6 Syracuse.

[MI Sooner]

No way is it Saban. Saban's record at MSU was good not great, same with LSU until he won the title. He's done great at Bama, but it's only been two years.

Meyer did very well at BGSU, and at Utah and Florida he's been lights out. Their records aren't even close, and Meyer hasn't had much easier jobs. Plus, Meyer won @Florida w/o Tebow (Leak). I'd say that at this point, there's a much greater chance that Meyer made Tebow, and not the other way around. The BGSU QB looked great under Meyer, Alex Smith looked great under Meyer, Leak looked great under Meyer, and Tebow looked great under Meyer.

[KantoSooner]

I dunno man, all that 'under Meyer' stuff was a bit, um, disturbing.

[Collier11]

No way is it Saban. Saban's record at MSU was good not great, same with LSU until he won the title. He's done great at Bama, but it's only been two years.

Meyer did very well at BGSU, and at Utah and Florida he's been lights out. Their records aren't even close, and Meyer hasn't had much easier jobs. Plus, Meyer won @Florida w/o Tebow (Leak). I'd say that at this point, there's a much greater chance that Meyer made Tebow, and not the other way around. The BGSU QB looked great under Meyer, Alex Smith looked great under Meyer, Leak looked great under Meyer, and Tebow looked great under Meyer.

Saban has had to rebuild all 3 places that he coached in college

[Eielson]

Saban has had to rebuild all 3 places that he coached in college

Do you think Meyer didn't?

[starclassic tama]

florida was good under zook mr. bayless. they had tons of talent but zook couldn't put it together...

[Eielson]

florida was good under zook mr. bayless. they had tons of talent but zook couldn't put it together...

You can't be "good" and not able to "put it together."

[Collier11]

You can't be "good" and not able to "put it together."

Florida had a buttload of talent under Zook, won 8 games a year, just never could put together a really good season. Meyer took that talent and made them into winners like Stoops did. Its another very easy concept to understand.

For whatever reason you decide that if someone makes a statement then that is the only thing they believe, like when I say that Meyer has always had good QBs you take it as Meyer isnt a good coach.

When someone says that Florida had good teams but never put it together, you argue that isnt possible, just think about it before blurting stuff out. No reason to be so disagreeable over such silly stuff. Especially when they are not that hard to understand if you just think about it...

[Eielson]

Florida had a buttload of talent under Zook, won 8 games a year, just never could put together a really good season. Meyer took that talent and made them into winners like Stoops did. Its another very easy concept to understand.

I realize that Florida had a lot of talent. However, talented and good are two different things. In order to be good, you must "put it together."

[Eielson]

I never said Meyer wasnt a big part of it, in fact, the only statement I ever made regarding meyer at Utah is that when he was at Utah he had Alex Smith at QB.

So it was just some random thing you were pointing out? It seemed to me like you were trying to make a point. Something along the lines of it being possible that the quarterbacks Meyer has had have made him look better than he is. You were just making random statements? Oh well. I'd like to hear what you think about Meyer making so many quarterbacks look good. Is he lucky? Good recruiter? Good coach? Just a random question.


Big deal, Bradford was a 3 star, Heupel a 2 star, star ratings dont matter much.

Stars aren't really what I was concerned with. I was more concerned with the fact that a future #1 pick, who finished 4th in the Heisman voting was offered only two scholarships coming out of high school...one of which came from his uncle. Bradford had plenty of scholarship offers, and he was rated the #12 pro-style quarterback coming out of high school. Heupel was a similar story. Heupel was a big deal, though.

[Collier11]

I think what Star was referencing was the fact that under Zook, Florida gave alot of really good teams fits. Some upsets and some close losses.

[Collier11]

So it was just some random thing you were pointing out? It seemed to me like you were trying to make a point. Something along the lines of it being possible that the quarterbacks Meyer has had have made him look better than he is. You were just making random statements? Oh well. I'd like to hear what you think about Meyer making so many quarterbacks look good. Is he lucky? Good recruiter? Good coach? Just a random question.

I was pointing out that at every stop, Meyer has had a really good QB. Saban has had average QBs, or at best what you would call game managers. Sure, Meyer had to develop the guys but I gave Saban the edge because he has done it twice now with average QBs. The discussion was a comparison of the two coaches and that is one of the reasons why I give Saban the edge

Stars aren't really what I was concerned with. I was more concerned with the fact that a future #1 pick, who finished 4th in the Heisman voting was offered only two scholarships coming out of high school...one of which came from his uncle. Bradford had plenty of scholarship offers, and he was rated the #12 pro-style quarterback coming out of high school. Heupel was a similar story. Heupel was a big deal, though.

While not as common obviously, you hear of 2 and 3 star QBs every year turning into big time players. Sometimes it is the coaches, sometimes it is luck, sometimes a combination of both

[Eielson]

Saban not having good quarterbacks is his fault, and Meyer always having good quarterbacks isn't luck. At least that's my opinion.

As for people like Alex Smith and Josh Heupel, I can't name any others off the top of my head. I'm interested to hear of other 2 star quarterbacks that became Heisman finalists.

[Collier11]

As for people like Alex Smith and Josh Heupel, I can't name any others off the top of my head. I'm interested to hear of other 2 star quarterbacks that became Heisman finalists.

From 08-02 according to Rivals, The following were all either Heisman finalists, current Heisman contenders, or atleast all-conf/all american college QBs as 2 or 3 stars

Kellen Moore
Sam Bradford
Christian Ponder
Colt Mccoy
Max Hall
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
Ben Mauk
Omar Jacobs
Jordan Palmer
Chase Daniel
Zac Robinson
Jarrett Brown
Matt Grothe
Darryl Clark
Kevin Kolb



...like I said, not a ton but there are a few each year that slip thru

[starclassic tama]

You can't be "good" and not able to "put it together."

a good team wins 9 games a year like zook did. they were talented, and if they had a better coach they would have been contenders. the point here is, meyer wasn't facing some massive rebuilding project at florida. he had plenty of talent, he is just a better coach than zook therefore the success. understand now?

[Eielson]

I'm interested to hear of other 2 star quarterbacks that became Heisman finalists.

Kellen Moore - three star/not heisman finalist
Sam Bradford - three star
Christian Ponder - three star/not heisman finalist
Colt Mccoy - three star
Max Hall - three star/not heisman finalist
Matt Ryan - three star, not heisman finalist
Joe Flacco - three star/not heisman finalist
Ben Mauk - three star/not heisman finalist
Omar Jacobs - Finally a two star, but not a heisman finalist. Did Urban Meyer recruit this guy?
Jordan Palmer - not heisman finalist
Chase Daniel - three star
Zac Robinson - three star/not heisman finalist
Jarrett Brown - three star/not heisman finalist
Matt Grothe - three star/not heisman finalist
Darryl Clark - three star/not heisman finalist
Kevin Kolb - three star/not heisman finalist

You didn't name a single person that met the requirements.

[Eielson]

a good team wins 9 games a year like zook did.

Zook never won 9 games in a season at Florida.

It may not have been some massive rebuilding project, but he had major turnarounds at Bowling Green, Utah, and Florida.

[Collier11]

There ya go again :rolleyes: , this was the discussion we were having...


While not as common obviously, you hear of 2 and 3 star QBs every year turning into big time players. Sometimes it is the coaches, sometimes it is luck, sometimes a combination of both

Then you said,


Saban not having good quarterbacks is his fault, and Meyer always having good quarterbacks isn't luck. At least that's my opinion.

As for people like Alex Smith and Josh Heupel, I can't name any others off the top of my head. I'm interested to hear of other 2 star quarterbacks that became Heisman finalists.

So, you took our discussion and made it what you wanted it to be. I in turn combined the two because that is what we were discussing, thats where you got your list from. You have also stated that you dont care about stars, so make up your mind. I am just providing facts that meet in the middle but yet again, you are being disagreeable for no reason

[Collier11]

While not as common obviously, you hear of 2 and 3 star QBs every year turning into big time players. Sometimes it is the coaches, sometimes it is luck, sometimes a combination of both


Kellen Moore - three star/not heisman finalist
Sam Bradford - three star
Christian Ponder - three star/not heisman finalist
Colt Mccoy - three star
Max Hall - three star/not heisman finalist
Matt Ryan - three star, not heisman finalist
Joe Flacco - three star/not heisman finalist
Ben Mauk - three star/not heisman finalist
Omar Jacobs - Finally a two star, but not a heisman finalist. Did Urban Meyer recruit this guy?
Jordan Palmer - not heisman finalist
Chase Daniel - three star
Zac Robinson - three star/not heisman finalist
Jarrett Brown - three star/not heisman finalist
Matt Grothe - three star/not heisman finalist
Darryl Clark - three star/not heisman finalist
Kevin Kolb - three star/not heisman finalist

You didn't name a single person that met the requirements.

BTW, check your info, several of those were 2 stars as was Todd Reesing, Case Keenum, and Andy Dalton...among others

[Eielson]

So, you took our discussion and made it what you wanted it to be.

No. You're the guilty one here. I never said anything about three star players. That was all you. I have a very logical reason for making the requirement be two stars or less. That reasoning of course is that the two players who were mentioned, Heupel and Smith, were both two stars. Three star players are completely irrelevant to this discussion.

So once again, I'd love to see you put together a list of players that were as lowly recruited as Heupel and Smith (2 stars on rivals), and did so well in college (heisman trophy finalist). Right now you're at zero.

[Collier11]

So you dont even believe your own quote, funny. I never once said I could produce a 2 star heisman finalist outside of those two, im sure they are out there but I dont have the time or want to in order to find the answer. You just keep arguing in circles for no reason at all, if it makes you feel good then have at it.

I clearly stated that there are 2 and 3 star players who become big time players all the time. Never once mentioned the words 2 star and Heisman, that was all you.

[Eielson]

This all started with you claiming that Smith being a 2-star quarterback with two offers and becoming a Heisman finalist wasn't a big deal. If it isn't a big deal, name somebody other than Josh Heupel who has done it. It's time to give a name, or back off your statement.

[Collier11]

Actually that isnt true at all, I said Meyer has always had great QBs which Smith was. You brought up Smith being avg or worse in the pros which doesnt matter

I then said, "Big deal, Bradford was a 3 star, Heupel a 2 star, star ratings dont matter much."

You are the one who brought up all the Heisman stuff...tough deal when you cant even remember what you said when trying to prove a point, I can quote every post for you if you want me to or you can back the train up and realize that you are arguing in circles here

I also said this in regards to the star rating, "While not as common obviously, you hear of 2 and 3 star QBs every year turning into big time players. Sometimes it is the coaches, sometimes it is luck, sometimes a combination of both"

The rest is all you, nice try...now go to bed, you are embarrassing yourself

[Eielson]

I then said, "Big deal, Bradford was a 3 star, Heupel a 2 star, star ratings dont matter much."

Exactly.


The rest is all you, nice try...now go to bed, you are embarrassing yourself

Comments like these are surefire signals to know that Collier lost an argument.

[Collier11]

No, its a sign of frustration that yet again, while talking to you, you lose your own way in your own discussion, you argue in circles, and then you accuse me of saying what you actually said. It is weak sauce, it is childish.

I just showed quote after quote proving that what you are saying I said, I never said and you continue to argue. I dont know why I waste the time sometimes

[Eielson]

I honestly don't think you have a point anymore.

[Collier11]

Youre right, there is no point in talking to you. Hell, even Leroy can be rationale from time to time, you are just a blowhard. When you are just talking sports youre not bad, when you get into trying to prove a point, you get a little lost in your words

[gaylordfan1]

Speaking of, where the heck is Leroy?

[gaylordfan1]

Some kids don't get the hype coming out of high school or don't show their full potential till college... And those that do both tend to be a big deal...ie Bradford. They are few and far between, but it does happen. Rarely, as proved by the many points on previous posts. I will say one thing, Colly does bring some good points to the table. :D

[Collier11]

Easy to do when I dont care who thinks im right :D

[RedstickSooner]

Saban is the better coach overall, but Meyer is (usually) the better in-game coach. That matchup between the two last year was a little flukey, to be honest.

Saban could be one of the all-time best recruiters. Obviously, the King is the greatest recruiter to ever work the game, but the things Saban has accomplished in the NNCAA sanction age are astonishing. The fact that numbnuts could come into LSU and win a national title on Saban's leftovers is epic. I've just never been impressed with Saban's coaching in big games. Usually he seems to just kinda muddle through -- but has players good enough that muddling is all you need. (And he usually has very solid assistants, too.)

As I've said for years now, LSU fans should tar-and-feather Skip Bertman for refusing to meet Saban's salary demands. The guy is worth every extorted dime he demands. Had LSU paid him, he'd still be wearing purple and gold, and LSU might have, like 6 national titles by now. Or something equally ridiculous.

[Eielson]

Some kids don't get the hype coming out of high school or don't show their full potential till college... And those that do both tend to be a big deal...ie Bradford. They are few and far between, but it does happen.

Situations like Alex Smith's and Sam Bradford's are completely different. If it weren't for Urban Meyer, Alex Smith's only D1 offer would've come from his uncle. Sam Bradford was the #12 rated pro-style quarterback coming out, and he received a ton of interest. Let's be honest here, if OU offered you, they're not the only one.

[Salt City Sooner]

Situations like Alex Smith's and Sam Bradford's are completely different. If it weren't for Urban Meyer, Alex Smith's only D1 offer would've come from his uncle. Sam Bradford was the #12 rated pro-style quarterback coming out, and he received a ton of interest. Let's be honest here, if OU offered you, they're not the only one.
Not really, but to be fair, that was probably due to his early committment. Tech, A&M & Iowa State were his only other offers. Michigan was giving him a look, but didn't offer.