Gov. Jan Brewer signs bill to get tough on illegal immigration

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

She's a "moderate". I was surprised she signed it. It will help her bid to get re-elected, but I still think she will lose to Dean Martin in the primary.

[soonerscuba]

I think being dead, the booze and near constant infidelity would hurt Dean Martin's chances.

[Leroy Lizard]

And his singing.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

In the 1950s Oklahoma governor J. Howard Edmondson, wanting to end the illegal traffic in booze, realized that the way to end prohibition was to enforce it.













everybody. loves somebody. sometimes.

[SicEmBaylor]

I think being dead, the booze and near constant infidelity would hurt Dean Martin's chances.

I consider all of those things to be more an asset than a liability.

[delhalew]

You and me both. If I were Dean Martin I'd be one happy dead ****.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

The AZ version is the State Treasurer, and appears to be pretty conservative and honest. He has some personality, too, and is probably the favorite, if he runs a smart and energetic campaign, IMHO.

[Flagstaffsooner]

But an Ill mex is gonna stop it.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/2196320,CST-NWS-immig25.article

[SanJoaquinSooner]

...will require local police officers to question people about their immigration status if there is reason to suspect they are illegal immigrants

How is "reason to suspect" defined in the law?

[Leroy Lizard]

Probably an inability to communicate in English.

Question: Do you need to establish legal residency to get a driver's license?

[yermom]

as long as they aren't pulling people over because they look Hispanic, i don't see it as being that ****ty

requiring "immigrants" to have paperwork on them seems an odd choice of words

and what happens to these lawbreakers? i didn't see penalties for breaking these laws

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Probably an inability to communicate in English.

Question: Do you need to establish legal residency to get a driver's license?

No. International students on a student visa can get a license, although it's expiration date is aligned with the visa.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Probably an inability to communicate in English.



Get serious. If that's it, the law will not stand up in the courts.

[Leroy Lizard]

So how do illegal aliens get drivers licenses?

[Leroy Lizard]

Get serious. If that's it, the law will not stand up in the courts.

What civil right would it violate? Remember, all this does is allow the officer to inquire about their citizenship.

[oumartin]

I say ship em all back and let em try again.(cept lets keep the ones in the local tex-mex establishments)

[Okla-homey]

How is "reason to suspect" defined in the law?

generally, I say generally, because there has been a vast amount of litigation over that "reason to suspect" chestnut, you can think of it as "a reasonable belief by an officer that the target of the officer's enquiry more likely than not ( >51% chance) committed, or is about to commit a crime." In this case, being here illegally.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Thank God they are gonna be stemming the tide of Canadians streaming across the border.

[olevetonahill]

Everyone is posed to carry I.D. with em all the time anyway.
Cop asks My fatwhiteass If Im legal, Im possed to have some form of I.D. on me .

[SanJoaquinSooner]

What civil right would it violate? Remember, all this does is allow the officer to inquire about their citizenship.

Equal protection clause.

[olevetonahill]

Equal protection clause.

What?????:confused:

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Everyone is posed to carry I.D. with em all the time anyway.
Cop asks My fatwhiteass If Im legal, Im possed to have some form of I.D. on me .

If you look like a bootlegger, is that sufficient to get a search warrant?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

What?????:confused:

Cops can't harrass folks for not speaking English.

[olevetonahill]

FRom what I can get of this

If Im a Cop on Patrol , I see jaun pepperbelly cruisein in his Low rider obeying the LAW im gonna wave at him and go on
If However I see jaun pepperbelly speeding, running stop signs or just acting stupid In general, IM stop him ask him fer his license, Now if he produces said License and INS.
Ima gonna wright him a ticket fer doing Stupid stuff , and Move on.

On the hand if He caint or wont produce said items Ima gonna take is *** to jail impound the Low rider . and ask Him him if his Back is wet
Pretty simple to me.

[Crucifax Autumn]

The second guy is gonna be late for work.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

FRom what I can get of this

If Im a Cop on Patrol , I see jaun pepperbelly cruisein in his Low rider obeying the LAW im gonna wave at him and go on
If However I see jaun pepperbelly speeding, running stop signs or just acting stupid In general, IM stop him ask him fer his license, Now if he produces said License and INS.
Ima gonna wright him a ticket fer doing Stupid stuff , and Move on.

On the hand if He caint or wont produce said items Ima gonna take is *** to jail impound the Low rider . and ask Him him if his Back is wet
Pretty simple to me.

That is no different from current law. If one is speeding, the cops can stop you and ask for a license. And if one doesn't have it, then the cop can impound and haul the driver in. If they want to call the feds on someone who can't prove legal presence, then they can under present law.

Seems to me, this new law is reaching beyond that.

[olevetonahill]

No jaun
From what Ive read its simply giving the Local PoPos the authority to enforce a Federal law.

Now instead of waitin on the Feds to do something the Locals can do it .

[Frozen Sooner]

The problem that people have with SB1070 is that it allows any law enforcement officer during a "lawful contact" with a person on "reasonable suspicion" to demand proof of citizenship. No, it's not limited to simply an arrest scenario.

Whether such law is Constitutional or not I give no opinion. That just seems to be the part that has people upset.

[olevetonahill]

"Lawful Contact"

Pretty much seems to be an Arrest / Traffic stop deal to me.

[Okla-homey]

So how do illegal aliens get drivers licenses?

In some states, the legislatures passed statutes allowing anyone, legal or not, to apply for and acquire a drivers license. I know for fact Tennessee did because it happened when I lived there.

The thinking was, they're here, they might as well prove they can safely operate a vehicle and get a license, for which they must pay money.

[delhalew]

The main obstacle keeping our LEOs from apprehending/holding violent repeat offender illegals is that they CANNOT question their citizen. They have to wait for ICE to give a damn. Ironic name, since that's like waiting for hell to freeze over. It's not out of line to determine who you are dealing with.

If Juan and Obama would prefer more dead ranchers and more raped little girls at the hands of habitually dangerous illegals, over some uncomfortable Hispanic folks, then hell with both of them. Every day it is more clear that I need our POTUS to quit speaking for me and how I feel. He could not be more incorrect.

How many times in your daily life are you required to prove your citizenship? Seems like I do it every time I turn around.

[Frozen Sooner]

"Lawful Contact"

Pretty much seems to be an Arrest / Traffic stop deal to me.

Is that the limit of lawful contacts a police officer may have with a person?

Is it a lawful contact between a person and a police officer when the person reports a crime?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

The main obstacle keeping our LEOs from apprehending/holding violent repeat offender illegals is that they CANNOT question their citizen. They have to wait for ICE to give a damn. Ironic name, since that's like waiting for hell to freeze over. It's not out of line to determine who you are dealing with.

If Juan and Obama would prefer more dead ranchers and more raped little girls at the hands of habitually dangerous illegals, over some uncomfortable Hispanic folks, then hell with both of them. Every day it is more clear that I need our POTUS to quit speaking for me and how I feel. He could not be more incorrect.

How many times in your daily life are you required to prove your citizenship? Seems like I do it every time I turn around.


A better solution than harassing people for speaking Spanish would be to execute those paying bucks for illegal drugs and hauling loads of illegal drugs.

[Curly Bill]

A better solution than harassing people for speaking Spanish would be to execute those paying bucks for illegal drugs and hauling loads of illegal drugs.

Can we execute the people who speak Spanish too? :D

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Can we execute the people who speak Spanish too? :D

Ja, natürlich.

[SoonerNate]

I love this. About time we enforce the law since the Feds won't.

Illegal means illegal.

Book 'em Danno.

[olevetonahill]

Is that the limit of lawful contacts a police officer may have with a person?

Is it a lawful contact between a person and a police officer when the person reports a crime?

Forgive me Mike I questioned yer Allsomeness

Hell NO thats not the only contact . Lets take yer example and stretch it further out in the extreme.

Since theoretically a Cop is On duty 24 /7
Any time he says Hell****inlo to some one then Hes in LAWFUL CONTACT :rolleyes:
Get real

[olevetonahill]

Your retort to My post is a Prime example Of why Most who are pretty much Centrist dont get involved in these discussions , One of the Libs are gonna take some thing said way the hell out of Context and throw it back at us .:rolleyes:
I usually just get in these types to Stir the pot a Little and have fun
Yall carry on . Im thru here

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

The Illegal Community will shi* bloody nachos if/when Andrew Thomas is elected Attorney General, and JD Hayworth is our new Senator. Over the top if Sherrif Joe runs for and wins Governor.

[Tailwind]

I'd vote for Sheriff Joe.

[Okla-homey]

Folks, Im just gonna say this once. And I only offer it for your edification. I'll try to avoid lawyer talk.

There is a long line of SCOTUS case law that stands for the proposition that anything the Constitution carved out as the exclusive province of Congress means means states cannot require tighter regulation.

Got it? Okay, the Constitution states immigration policy belongs to Congress at Article 1, Sec. 8. Along with bankruptcy policy BTW.

Therefore, this new AZ law, no matter how much it makes AZ hearts happy, will not survive the first challenge brought in Federal court. You heard it here first.

[delhalew]

Because SCOTUS oversteps its bounds every time it convenes, we have to quit trying to govern our states? I agree it will be overturned. I'm also here to tell you that won't be the last you hear of it.
Things like this will awaken people to the need for an Amendment convention to reign in all three branches of gub'ment.

[Okla-homey]

Because SCOTUS oversteps its bounds every time it convenes, we have to quit trying to govern our states? I agree it will be overturned. I'm also here to tell you that won't be the last you hear of it.
Things like this will awaken people to the need for an Amendment convention to reign in all three branches of gub'ment.

an amendment convention would be an interesting development. We've never done one. Evar.

[delhalew]

an amendment convention would be an interesting development. We've never done one. Evar.

It's recently become clear to me, that we have nothing to lose. Consider that every state gets one vote when it comes time for a 3/4's ratification vote.

Did you know that applications for a convention have no expiration date, and that over the years more than enough state have put in requests. They are just being ignored, but 38 states demanding a convention at once can't be ignored. If it were, THAT is a case for mass secession.

[Leroy Lizard]

Cops can't harrass folks for not speaking English.

They aren't harassing them for not speaking English, because not speaking English isn't illegal. They are harassing them because they suspect they are not here legally based on their lack of speaking English.

If I pull a person over and he stammers when talking to me, that would be enough for to investigate whether he is drunk. However, I am not harassing him for being a stammerer.

[Leroy Lizard]

Folks, Im just gonna say this once. And I only offer it for your edification. I'll try to avoid lawyer talk.

There is a long line of SCOTUS case law that stands for the proposition that anything the Constitution carved out as the exclusive province of Congress means means states cannot require tighter regulation.

This isn't immigration policy. AZ is not creating new laws on who can or cannot enter the country. They are simply creating a law on how those that break the law can be arrested.

Now, that may violate SCOTUS decisions on some other level, but not because it constitutes a new immigration policy.

[Frozen Sooner]

Forgive me Mike I questioned yer Allsomeness

Hell NO thats not the only contact . Lets take yer example and stretch it further out in the extreme.

Since theoretically a Cop is On duty 24 /7
Any time he says Hell****inlo to some one then Hes in LAWFUL CONTACT :rolleyes:
Get real

Gee, pardon me Howard, when you said that "lawful contacts" means Traffic Stops and Arrests I didn't realize that you meant everything else as well. I apologize for not reading your mind and only going off what your post said.

And YES, that's the problem that some people have with the statute. Lawful contact gives a cop the power to demand proof of citizenship damn near anytime they talk to someone.

[Leroy Lizard]

In some states, the legislatures passed statutes allowing anyone, legal or not, to apply for and acquire a drivers license. I know for fact Tennessee did because it happened when I lived there.

Does Arizona allow this?

[Frozen Sooner]

Your retort to My post is a Prime example Of why Most who are pretty much Centrist dont get involved in these discussions , One of the Libs are gonna take some thing said way the hell out of Context and throw it back at us .:rolleyes:
I usually just get in these types to Stir the pot a Little and have fun
Yall carry on . Im thru here

Out of context my hairy ***. I quoted your entire post.

[Leroy Lizard]

It's recently become clear to me, that we have nothing to lose. Consider that every state gets one vote when it comes time for a 3/4's ratification vote.

Did you know that applications for a convention have no expiration date, and that over the years more than enough state have put in requests. They are just being ignored, but 38 states demanding a convention at once can't be ignored. If it were, THAT is a case for mass secession.

Our original Constitution was drafted by true men of ingeniousness. Today, we have Obama and Boxer. Do you really want a Constitutional Convention?

[Curly Bill]

Our original Constitution was drafted by true men of ingeniousness. Today, we have Obama and Boxer. Do you really want a Constitutional Convention?

Oh, hell no!

There's no telling what we'd come up with these days, but I'm willing to bet it wouldn't be an improvement.

[ndpruitt03]

Oh, hell no!

There's no telling what we'd come up with these days, but I'm willing to bet it wouldn't be an improvement.

Not with the guys we have out there right now. The group of politicians now want us to go the socialist vs fascist route. I don't want either one.

[delhalew]

Our original Constitution was drafted by true men of ingeniousness. Today, we have Obama and Boxer. Do you really want a Constitutional Convention?

Yes. Over the years congress has amended the Constitution into oblivion with the supreme court backing their play so that, now they don't have to make amendments to end around the constitution. Add to that the proliferation of the executive order and the acquisition by the executive branch of powers meant for Congress. Also, a litany of government bureaucracies that serve no purpose other leaching money and keeping the federal government dictating every facet of commerce, education, and your life.

An amendment convention is just that. A federalism amendment to remind the federal government were we stand is not overreaching.

Tell me Leroy, do think 3/4s of the states would ratify a progressive, globalist, Obama/Pelosi/insert velvet glove of gub'ment cockroach here/Boxer/Reid plan?

All that said, I am of the variety that wants to real the 16th and 17th amendments, and abolish bureaucracies from the EPA to the DoE. Also the FED. If 3/4s of the states won't go that far so be it, but if anyone thinks we are still governed by our founding document, you are fooling yourself.

So I stand firmly by the "we have nothing to lose" argument.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I can't wait until illlegal lover TX governor Perry passes a similar bill. Oh wait, not gonna happen, he'll just pose for pictures looking menacing.

Here's a solution, carry a passport or require a passport. Oh wait, that's a financial hardship - not!

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Here's a solution, carry a passport or require a passport.

Alpha, have you thought this through?

[delhalew]

Oh, hell no!

There's no telling what we'd come up with these days, but I'm willing to bet it wouldn't be an improvement.

As a proponent of this I don't need lefty Obama zombies to understand this. Most of them are terrified of it, as they should be.
I do need you and other fair-minded center right folks to understand how this works.

A) Congress has ****-all to do with it. Obama has zero to do with it.
B)Every state brings a delegation from the state gov of as many representative as they wish.
C) Ratification of any amendments require 3/4's of the states to approve.
D)Unlike Congress, every state gets ONE vote. Cali, New York and other high population liberal ****holes cannot sway the direction away from that desired by the rest of the country.

Thinking about it this way, I think you would feel less worried about damage that could be done. We do have people out here with good idea's and people who understand how to return our trajectory to the founders vision.

Consider Dr. Kevin Gutzman. A real Constitutional scholar, not a revisionist.
http://libertypulse.com/blog/2010/04/07/kevin-gutzman-explains-article-5-convention/

[olevetonahill]

Out of context my hairy ***. I quoted your entire post.

You just proved my point .:rolleyes:

[Flagstaffsooner]

You guys are really missing the meaning of this law. Alot of AZ cities, towns and counties have been refusing to do anything about illegals. This forces them to.

[ndpruitt03]

You guys are really missing the meaning of this law. Alot of AZ cities, towns and counties have been refusing to do anything about illegals. This forces them to.

I think you are right, but this is probably not constitutional. But the fed gvt has done nothing about illegals for far too long.

[Leroy Lizard]

Yes. Over the years congress has amended the Constitution into oblivion with the supreme court backing their play so that, now they don't have to make amendments to end around the constitution. Add to that the proliferation of the executive order and the acquisition by the executive branch of powers meant for Congress. Also, a litany of government bureaucracies that serve no purpose other leaching money and keeping the federal government dictating every facet of commerce, education, and your life.

I agree with your objections. I just see a Constitutional Convention as a means for those that want the Constitution to reflect their own way of life.


Tell me Leroy, do think 3/4s of the states would ratify a progressive, globalist, Obama/Pelosi/insert velvet glove of gub'ment cockroach here/Boxer/Reid plan?

If they don't vote for it, they won't get any federal funds. So yeah, they'll vote for it.

Didn't we learn that with the national education standards?

[Okla-homey]

IMHO, things started going to crap with the ratification of the XVII Amendment in 1913 which took Senatorial appointments away from state legislatures and created popular election of Senators.

The Senate was intended to be the calming, collegial and deliberative body where all the expensive populist stuff that flowed from the House went to die.;)

Before 1913, Senators, who only needed the support of their various state legislatures, could afford to do the right thing, not necessarily the politically expedient thing, because they didn't have to worry about running for office every six years.

[delhalew]

I agree with your objections. I just see a Constitutional Convention as a means for those that want the Constitution to reflect their own way of life.



If they don't vote for it, they won't get any federal funds. So yeah, they'll vote for it.

Didn't we learn that with the national education standards?

That's not how the amendment process works Leroy.

[delhalew]

IMHO, things started going to crap with the ratification of the XVII Amendment in 1913 which took Senatorial appointments away from state legislatures and created popular election of Senators.

The Senate was intended to be the calming, collegial and deliberative body where all the expensive populist stuff that flowed from the House went to die.;)

Before 1913, Senators, who only needed the support of their various state legislatures, could afford to do the right thing, not necessarily the politically expedient thing, because they didn't have to worry about running for office every six years.

From ME! "All that said, I am of the variety that wants to repeal the 16th and 17th amendments."

BIG thumbs up, Homey! Nobody ever considers the damage done by the 17th. It sounds like such a helpful amendment. Unintended consequences...bla bla bla. Very apt explanation on your part.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Lets see...

I'm a citizen of this country.
I speak English.
I'm white.

How is this law bad for me again?

[Flagstaffsooner]

Lets see...

I'm a citizen of this country.
I speak English.
I'm white.

How is this law bad for me again?You'll have to pay a pimple face instead of a brown face to mow your lawn.;)

[JLEW1818]

White, speak english, straight, single

ur ****ed

give your money to some lady who has 4 babies with 3 different dads

she deserves it

[Leroy Lizard]

You'll have to pay a pimple face instead of a brown face to mow your lawn.;)

I mow my own lawn. Maybe if more of us did that instead of taking advantage of cheap illegal labor, things would improve.

[JLEW1818]

if the worthless just wouldn't reproduce...

[olevetonahill]

"Lawful Contact"

Pretty much seems to be an Arrest / Traffic stop deal to me.


Is that the limit of lawful contacts a police officer may have with a person?

Is it a lawful contact between a person and a police officer when the person reports a crime?


Gee, pardon me Howard, when you said that "lawful contacts" means Traffic Stops and Arrests I didn't realize that you meant everything else as well. I apologize for not reading your mind and only going off what your post said.

And YES, that's the problem that some people have with the statute. Lawful contact gives a cop the power to demand proof of citizenship damn near anytime they talk to someone.


No Mike you did NOT quote me verbatim, You read what you wanted to see and went from there .

[olevetonahill]

If you look like a bootlegger, is that sufficient to get a search warrant?

This has WHAT??? to do with Illegal Immigrants ?

[Frozen Sooner]

If your intent wasn't to convey the idea that a police officer could "pretty much" only demand proof of citizenship during a traffic stop or arrest, then I sincerely apologize. Based on what you wrote, that seemed to be what you were getting at. Generally, when someone says that something "pretty much" means something, then the pretty much doesn't really add anything to the deal.

So tell me what you meant, because I'm actually really curious and I'm apparently too obtuse to figure out what you were saying. I wasn't trying to twist your words or anything-I honestly thought you were trying to say that the "lawful contact" language pretty much only meant traffic stops and arrests.

[olevetonahill]

If your intent wasn't to convey the idea that a police officer could "pretty much" only demand proof of citizenship during a traffic stop or arrest, then I sincerely apologize. Based on what you wrote, that seemed to be what you were getting at. Generally, when someone says that something "pretty much" means something, then the pretty much doesn't really add anything to the deal.

So tell me what you meant, because I'm actually really curious and I'm apparently too obtuse to figure out what you were saying. I wasn't trying to twist your words or anything-I honestly thought you were trying to say that the "lawful contact" language pretty much only meant traffic stops and arrests.

I pretty much said what I meant bro.
Pretty much the only times an officer comes in contact with some in a Law enforcement capacity is Pretty much seems to be an Arrest / Traffic stop deal to me.



No where did I say Exclusively or ONLY

as a Former Cop the Majority of the time I came in contact with an individual was during a Traffic stop /ticket / arrest deal .
Now did I have leagl contact at other times ? hell yes But what i said and meant was Usually thats the case.

[Frozen Sooner]

OK then. I don't have any real idea what we're arguing about then. I agree with you-most of the time police officers have legal contact with people is in exactly they way you described.

What I think people have a concern about is the other times you have a contact with an police officer, not the traffic stop or arrest scenario. Saying that most of the contact between the police and the public is in those two scenarios doesn't really address the concern.

[olevetonahill]

Think about it Mike. When you have done nothing wrong, how many times have you had to deal with a Cop ?

Been my experience on Both sides of the Badge, Ya dont **** up and a cop aint gonna **** with ya .:cool:

[Okla-homey]

As to cops enforcing this stuff randomly, frankly, I don't think they would have the time. Even if every cop in Phoenix had a hard-on for illegals, he'd spend so much time shaking them down he wouldn't have time to do anything else.

Think about it. An arrest takes a cop off the street for quite a while. Maybe even a couple hours what with all the paperwork.

More likely, the cop would be investigating a MVA, and would determine one, or both, of the drivers is an illegal, and he'd have to haul them in. That's the way I see this going down for the most part. Ditto DUI stops and speeders.

[Frozen Sooner]

Think about it Mike. When you have done nothing wrong, how many times have you had to deal with a Cop ?

I've been innocent every time, I tell ya. :D

[olevetonahill]

I've been innocent every time, I tell ya. :D

Me also 2 , But they always sharing they jewelry and inviting me top spend the night .:eek: :D

[olevetonahill]

As to cops enforcing this stuff randomly, frankly, I don't think they would have the time. Even if every cop in Phoenix had a hard-on for illegals, he'd spend so much time shaking them down he wouldn't have time to do anything else.

Think about it. An arrest takes a cop off the street for quite a while. Maybe even a couple hours what with all the paperwork.

More likely, the cop would be investigating a MVA, and would determine one, or both, of the drivers is an illegal, and he'd have to haul them in. That's the way I see this going down for the most part. Ditto DUI stops and speeders.

Pretty much Homey
Years ago I got stopped in Watts Ok. Speed trap capital of the world .
Dude was a smartass I wads a bigger smartass.
I made him arrest me rather than sign the ticket and just go on . Hell I had the time to kill:D

All the way back to Stillwell he kept askin me if I could post BOND . I said Hell no Im PO. Needless to say this speed trap ticket wasnt going the way The city fathers and the PoPos of Watts wanted it to go . All of a sudden they got to PAY the county to house me and feed me :D
After dikin with him fer about 2an a 1/2 hours I finally told MY last ex to write em a check and lets get the hell out of there .

He was pizzed cause I kept him OFF the streets for almost 3 hours :D

[Leroy Lizard]

That's not how the amendment process works Leroy.

No, that's not how the amendment process USED to work. We voted for change.

[delhalew]

No, that's not how the amendment process USED to work. We voted for change.

I would just suggest that you research and keep an open mind on the issue, because the movement for an article 5 convention is very serious. Some of us know in our hearts, it is our only hope.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Think about it Mike. When you have done nothing wrong, how many times have you had to deal with a Cop ?

Been my experience on Both sides of the Badge, Ya dont **** up and a cop aint gonna **** with ya .:cool:

Obviously you've never stood around minding your own business in small town texass.

[Leroy Lizard]

I would just suggest that you research and keep an open mind on the issue, because the movement for an article 5 convention is very serious. Some of us know in our hearts, it is our only hope.

Well, it's getting to the point where we don't have much to lose.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

As a proponent of this I don't need lefty Obama zombies to understand this. Most of them are terrified of it, as they should be.
I do need you and other fair-minded center right folks to understand how this works.

A) Congress has ****-all to do with it. Obama has zero to do with it.
B)Every state brings a delegation from the state gov of as many representative as they wish.
C) Ratification of any amendments require 3/4's of the states to approve.
D)Unlike Congress, every state gets ONE vote. Cali, New York and other high population liberal ****holes cannot sway the direction away from that desired by the rest of the country.

Thinking about it this way, I think you would feel less worried about damage that could be done. We do have people out here with good idea's and people who understand how to return our trajectory to the founders vision.

Consider Dr. Kevin Gutzman. A real Constitutional scholar, not a revisionist.
http://libertypulse.com/blog/2010/04/07/kevin-gutzman-explains-article-5-convention/

Exactly what amendment do you think is going to pass with 3/4 of the states agreeing to it?

[Curly Bill]

Obviously you've never stood around minding your own business in small town texass.

Actually I've done that a lot, and never been bothered by the popos.

[delhalew]

Exactly what amendment do you think is going to pass with 3/4 of the states agreeing to it?

The one that is hammered out through a series of ratification debates. Are you paying attention to how this works Bourbon St?

[Bourbon St Sooner]

The one that is hammered out through a series of ratification debates. Are you paying attention to how this works Bourbon St?

Probably not, but iffin the Dems can't get anything through the Senate when all they need is one vote from the other side, getting anything meaningful passed needing 3/4 majority sounds a bit far fetched. Color me skeptical.

[delhalew]

Probably not, but iffin the Dems can't get anything through the Senate when all they need is one vote from the other side, getting anything meaningful passed needing 3/4 majority sounds a bit far fetched. Color me skeptical.

An amendment convention has nothing to do with either house of Congress. It takes place independent of the federal government. Except that when the requests are received, Congress calls for the convention. After that, it's out of their hands.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

this "tough of illegal immigration" bill does lend itself to some good ideas.

It would help solve the drug problem if we made it a crime for anyone who knows of a drug user not to turn them in to authorities. And also, we could do drug tests on anyone who comes into legal contact with a police officer. I mean, really, you don't come into legal contact with an officer unless you're guilty of something.

[Harry Beanbag]

The conflict over a sweeping crackdown on illegal immigration in Arizona intensified Monday as vandals smeared refried beans in the shape of swastikas on the state Capitol's windows.


http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/153047


Smells like the work of trolls to me, and refried beans of course. :)

[delhalew]

this "tough of illegal immigration" bill does lend itself to some good ideas.

It would help solve the drug problem if we made it a crime for anyone who knows of a drug user not to turn them in to authorities. And also, we could do drug tests on anyone who comes into legal contact with a police officer. I mean, really, you don't come into legal contact with an officer unless you're guilty of something.

That was not nearly as clever as you thought it was.

[TUSooner]

FRom what I can get of this

If Im a Cop on Patrol , I see jaun pepperbelly cruisein in his Low rider obeying the LAW im gonna wave at him and go on
If However I see jaun pepperbelly speeding, running stop signs or just acting stupid In general, IM stop him ask him fer his license, Now if he produces said License and INS.
Ima gonna wright him a ticket fer doing Stupid stuff , and Move on.

On the hand if He caint or wont produce said items Ima gonna take is *** to jail impound the Low rider . and ask Him him if his Back is wet
Pretty simple to me.

Too simple, brother. Nobody's gonna ask no hillbilly like you or a slice of white-bread like me for some papers. Try this: My wife is from Iran (more than 30 years ago), she's a little darker than I am, and sometimes people speak Spanish to her because they think she's hispanic. She speaks not a word of Spanish but she has a wee trace of a Persian accent. If she gets pulled over and asked for her "papers" is she supposed to show that neat little citizenship paper she got lo those many years ago or go to jail? Does she have to carry her US passport in her own country ('least in AZ)? IF that's what this laws says, it is some majorly effed up BS.

All you conservative and libertarian folks who are yelping about losing your sacred liberties need to Wake Up and see what this is all headed for: Cops putting people in jail until they prove their innocence. That, my fellow Amerians, is exactly the kind of **** that happens in a police state.

[TUSooner]

That was not nearly as clever as you thought it was.

Because some self-righteous neo-Nazi will think it's really a good idea? :rolleyes:

[TUSooner]

Folks, Im just gonna say this once. And I only offer it for your edification. I'll try to avoid lawyer talk.

There is a long line of SCOTUS case law that stands for the proposition that anything the Constitution carved out as the exclusive province of Congress means means states cannot require tighter regulation.

Got it? Okay, the Constitution states immigration policy belongs to Congress at Article 1, Sec. 8. Along with bankruptcy policy BTW.

Therefore, this new AZ law, no matter how much it makes AZ hearts happy, will not survive the first challenge brought in Federal court. You heard it here first.

Exactally.
Plus it's just plain wrong. It's cheap demagoguery and scapegoating of immigrants.

[delhalew]

Exactally.
Plus it's just plain wrong. It's cheap demagoguery and scapegoating of immigrants.

I respectfully reserve the right to believe that you are out of your freakin' mind.

[TUSooner]

I respectfully reserve the right to believe that you are out of your freakin' mind.

Cool. I'd expect someone like you to think that.

[SicEmBaylor]

How is AZ setting a new tougher immigration law? The state isn't creating new immigration law that's tougher than the existing Federal standard -- they're simply changing its policy on how Police enforce existing Federal law. They aren't creating new penalties for illegal immigration that their courts would enforce...it's still up to the Feds how to prosecute each case under Federal law.

So, how is AZ changing how it enforces existing Federal law creating a new tougher standard of the law itself?

[Ike]

All you conservative and libertarian folks who are yelping about losing your sacred liberties need to Wake Up and see what this is all headed for: Cops putting people in jail until they prove their innocence. That, my fellow Amerians, is exactly the kind of **** that happens in a police state.

Sadly, most people are perfectly fine with this kind of thing provided that it's only happening to people that don't look/speak/think like them....In other words, as long as they believe it could never happen to them.

[TUSooner]

Face it. Lots of Americans (and SO posters) would love to get rid of all Spanish-speaking immigrants, and the fact that some of them are illegal gives some legitimacy to that feeling.

[SicEmBaylor]

Face it. Lots of Americans (and SO posters) would love to get rid of all Spanish-speaking immigrants, and the fact that some of them are illegal gives some legitimacy to that feeling.

I readily admit I'm one of those people.

I oppose immigration in all its forms.

[delhalew]

Cool. I'd expect someone like you to think that.

Someone like ME? I am awash in mock indignation.

[TUSooner]

Sadly, most people are perfectly fine with this kind of thing provided that it's only happening to people that don't look/speak/think like them....In other words, as long as they believe it could never happen to them.

Exactly. The hypocrisy of some of the so-called-liberty-loving phonies on this board is nauseating.

[SicEmBaylor]

Exactly. The hypocrisy of some of the so-called-liberty-loving phonies on this board is nauseating.

I love liberty here at home to be enjoyed by native-born Americans. I don't believe everyone and anyone is entitled to American liberty simply by immigrating here.

They're destroying America's traditional Western European culture.

[delhalew]

I prove my citizenship regularly. If a hispanic person can't tolerate that inconvenience, then to hell with them.

Oh, sorry. Let me fit in the box you've built for me. Down with the brown people!

[Harry Beanbag]

So, how is AZ changing how it enforces existing Federal law creating a new tougher standard of the law itself?


Obviously you aren't paying attention. It's because Arizona is racist.

[TUSooner]

Someone like ME? I am awash in mock indignation.

C'mon. You should be sincerely indignant. That's as close to a junior-high insult as I get!

[Harry Beanbag]

Exactly. The hypocrisy of some of the so-called-liberty-loving phonies on this board is nauseating.


:rolleyes: Weak. Illegal immigration is bankrupting Arizona, good for them for attempting to enforce the ****ing LAW.

[delhalew]

C'mon. You should be sincerely indignant. That's as close to a junior-high insult as I get!

I know! So why waste my genuine indignation on that insult. :D There is only so much in the reservoir you know.

[ndpruitt03]

:rolleyes: Weak. Illegal immigration is bankrupting Arizona, good for them for attempting to enforce the ****ing LAW.

I think the law is another example of big government. Fascism isn't a good way to go either. We need to basically close the boarders and keep people from coming in some way. The best way to to build some sort of great wall or electric fence which will never happen.

[Harry Beanbag]

I think the law is another example of big government. Fascism isn't a good way to go either. We need to basically close the boarders and keep people from coming in some way. The best way to to build some sort of great wall or electric fence which will never happen.


Immigration laws are fascist? :confused:

[delhalew]

I think the law is another example of big government. Fascism isn't a good way to go either. We need to basically close the boarders and keep people from coming in some way. The best way to to build some sort of great wall or electric fence which will never happen.

Were is the fascism? So far as I can tell, they are just enforcing federal law at the state level in order to quell the illegal immigrant crime wave in Arizona.

[1890MilesToNorman]

The law is so damned inconvenient. Ignoring it, that's the ticket.

[NormanPride]

What are the specific ways one proves citizenship? If it's just the DL then who cares if they ask for it all the time? Even a passport wouldn't be THAT big of a deal to carry.

To me, this is just another reason for a national id card that is easy to carry and nigh-impossible to forge.

[ndpruitt03]

The law is going after people because they look like they are illegal. In other words it's going after hispanics. That's why this law is going down.

[ndpruitt03]

What are the specific ways one proves citizenship? If it's just the DL then who cares if they ask for it all the time? Even a passport wouldn't be THAT big of a deal to carry.

To me, this is just another reason for a national id card that is easy to carry and nigh-impossible to forge.

The moment they make those legal is the moment they become easy to forge/duplicate. They may be hard to duplicate right now but who wants to duplicate one right now?

[Curly Bill]

Someone like ME? I am awash in mock indignation.

I know right?

Thanks for the laugh TU.

[Okla-homey]

I love liberty here at home to be enjoyed by native-born Americans. I don't believe everyone and anyone is entitled to American liberty simply by immigrating here.

They're destroying America's traditional Western European culture.

I suspect the Mississippi Choctaws among whom you have decided to live would disagree that your skinny white buttocks should be allowed in Mississippi.

Nevertheless, you immigrated there and feel you have a right to do so. In the final analysis, what's the difference between your moving to Mississippi and what the Mex's are doing when they move there...given the fact, as we've heard so many times from you, Mississippi, like any other state, is a soveriegn entity that isn't bound by Federal policy? Therefore, did you ask The State of Mississippi before you re-located? Hmmmm?

[Okla-homey]

How is AZ setting a new tougher immigration law? The state isn't creating new immigration law that's tougher than the existing Federal standard -- they're simply changing its policy on how Police enforce existing Federal law. They aren't creating new penalties for illegal immigration that their courts would enforce...it's still up to the Feds how to prosecute each case under Federal law.

So, how is AZ changing how it enforces existing Federal law creating a new tougher standard of the law itself?

I can't explain it without going lawyer on you. But suffice to say, the Federal government "occupies the field" of immigration policy and law. Similar to the way Congress occupies the field of bankruptcy, customs, coining money, international treaties, post offices, indian law, etc. States can't do dikum in those areas.

Also, what part of:


"To establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout thje United States"

do you not understand? Just as states can't do crap to enforce federal laws on bankruptcy, they can't do crap to enforce immigration law and policy.

[Curly Bill]

I suspect the Mississippi Choctaws among whom you have decided to live would disagree that your skinny white buttocks should be allowed in Mississippi.

Nevertheless, you immigrated there and feel you have a right to do so. In the final analysis, what's the difference between your moving to Mississippi and what the Mex's are doing when they move there...given the fact, as we've heard so many times from you, Mississippi, like any other state, is a soveriegn entity that isn't bound by Federal policy? Therefore, did you ask The State of Mississippi before you re-located? Hmmmm?

How about the fact it was largely white folk (yeah not PC to say so I know) that made this nation what it is, not to discount the terrible things we did to the Native Americans. The messicans flocking here in record numbers...well, they really didn't do much to make this nation what it is, they're just looking to exploit our unwillingness to close our borders, enforce the law, punish those who hire illegals, etc...

[delhalew]

I can't explain it without going lawyer on you. But suffice to say, the Federal government "occupies the field" of immigration policy and law. Similar to the way Congress occupies the field of bankruptcy, customs, coining money, international treaties, post offices, indian law, etc. States can't do dikum in those areas.

Also, what part of:



do you not understand? Just as states can't do crap to enforce federal laws on bankruptcy, they can't do crap to enforce immigration law and policy.

So, since this is a lawyers world and we're all just living in it; in legal terms, are establish and enforce synonyms?

[TUSooner]

Illegal immigration is a black market. The invisible hand of the "market"
is at work: As long as people see a way to make a better life, they will do whatever they can to get it. Setting the police after those evil foreign brown people is a sop for deluded folk who think they can make all their problems go away by making "them" go away. (Get rid of those filthy Jews and Germany will rise to its rightful place!) It's as immoral, illogical, and pointless as a government thinking it can suppress any other market. (How do you think we got Texas from the Mexicans? The "market" prevailed over Santa Anna's armies. Why did prohibition fail? Why is the Zero-Tolerance War on Drugs failing to solve the drug problem? And the Iron Curtain countries had the most creative and thriving black markets in the world.) Sometimes suppression (which is all this forlorn AZ law is) works, but only for awhile, and at what cost? A true and moral solution requires thought, not slogans and cheap quick fixes by demagogic politicians who play to the meanest instincts of the paranoid masses.

I guarantee that most of the whiners about illegal immigration wouldn't bat an eye over some white Canadian university professor who disregarded his visa and made himself at home next door. But let a family of legal Hondurans move in, and -- lo and behold -- the country is going all to hell. Sic'Em may be as sentient as a box of dirt, but at least he's not hypocritical about his wrongheadedness.

One more thing: Some of you young whippersnappers and wise-aszes weren't around in the radical 60s, but at that time, the flaming rhetoric and narrow-minded hate of the weirdest wackos of the left were but a mirror image of the noise made by the loony right-wing know-nothings of our day. Bull*** is bull****, regardless of the source.

[delhalew]

All those other countries that control their borders must use "magic".

[JLEW1818]

i wish they would use

Avada Kedavra

[Curly Bill]

Illegal immigration is a black market. The invisible hand of the "market"
is at work: As long as people see a way to make a better life, they will do whatever they can to get it. Setting the police after those evil foreign brown people is a sop for deluded folk who think they can make all their problems go away by making "them" go away. (Get rid of those filthy Jews and Germany will rise to its rightful place!) It's as immoral, illogical, and pointless as a government thinking it can suppress any other market. (How do you think we got Texas from the Mexicans? The "market" prevailed over Santa Anna's armies. Why did prohibition fail? Why is the Zero-Tolerance War on Drugs failing to solve the drug problem? And the Iron Curtain countries had the most creative and thriving black markets in the world.) Sometimes suppression (which is all this forlorn AZ law is) works, but only for awhile, and at what cost? A true and moral solution requires thought, not slogans and cheap quick fixes by demagogic politicians who play to the meanest instincts of the paranoid masses.

I guarantee that most of the whiners about illegal immigration wouldn't bat an eye over some white Canadian university professor who disregarded his visa and made himself at home next door. But let a family of legal Hondurans move in, and -- lo and behold -- the country is going all to hell. Sic'Em may be as sentient as a box of dirt, but at least he's not hypocritical about his wrongheadedness.

One more thing: Some of you young whippersnappers and wise-aszes weren't around in the radical 60s, but at that time, the flaming rhetoric and narrow-minded hate of the weirdest wackos of the left were but a mirror image of the noise made by the loony right-wing know-nothings of our day. Bull*** is bull****, regardless of the source.

Hey! Lets play the race card when we don't have a better argument! :rolleyes:

[JLEW1818]

beans

[Curly Bill]

I like beans, I deleted the rest of my post because I'm a nice guy. :D

[JLEW1818]

White men make America soooooo sucky

[Curly Bill]

White men make America soooooo sucky

We're to blame for many of the ills of America. I feel really really guilty. :(

[Curly Bill]

If not for the white man, the people of other countries could come here illegally and prosper in peace. Really, where do we get off telling peeps they can't come here illegally -- the nerve!

[delhalew]

White men make America soooooo sucky

Die white debbil!

[TUSooner]

Hey! Lets play the race card when we don't have a better argument! :rolleyes:

You're the guy without an argument that's playing the race card. Answer the argument I made, not the lame and fabricated PoS argument you can handle.

[Curly Bill]

You're the guy without an argument that's playing the race card. Answer the argument I made, not the lame and fabricated PoS argument you can handle.

Dude, that doesn't even make sense. :O

[TUSooner]

All those other countries that control their borders must use "magic".

Who said we shouldn't control our borders?
Do you think we can do it by rounding up Spanish-speakers "just in case"?
I'll tell you what I told Curley: Address the argument I made, not the lame argument you can handle with regurgitated cant.

[TUSooner]

Dude, that doesn't even make sense. :O

Your lack of understanding is your problem.

[StoopTroup]

I have yet to feel affected by any of this so I feel no outrage.

I think I've been ripped off.

[JLEW1818]

what you been up to ST?

[olevetonahill]

what you been up to ST?

Getting Ripped off
Pay tention

[Curly Bill]

Your lack of understanding is your problem.

...and I thought it was because you couldn't put together a coherent sentence...:confused:

[Leroy Lizard]

Illegal immigration is a black market. The invisible hand of the "market"
is at work: As long as people see a way to make a better life, they will do whatever they can to get it.

Just like theft.

We will always have theft as long as people desire to take things from us without our consent.

So we should not oppose it. Just bend over for them.

[JLEW1818]

yup bend right on over!!! their daddy stole and mom did crack. Its a great excuse to live your parents life style!! that turned out so great!


SPREAD THE ****ING WEALTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Curly Bill]

You two bastages are just racist! Admit it! You don't like brown people!!!

[JLEW1818]

i don't like worthless!

(1/3 of the democratic party, ish)

sure would suck to be part of that party

:D

[Curly Bill]

i don't like worthless!

(1/3 of the democratic party, ish)

sure would suck to be part of that party

:D

I think you plan on working for a living right? You have no business in that party. ;)

[JLEW1818]

yep i prlly got another 40 years of work, if i play my cards right.

[TUSooner]

Just like theft.

We will always have theft as long as people desire to take things from us without our consent.

So we should not oppose it. Just bend over for them.

Are you really that simple? That obtuse? Does your mind lack all suppleness and flexibility? Do you see the world as a picture drawn with a black crayon?

Of course we don't bend over for theft. We oppose it; but we don't hang people for stealing a watch like we did in the good old days, and we don't chop their hands off for pinching a loaf of bread.
We should oppose illegal immigration, too. But that doesn't mean we have to embrace every ill-conceived law that has an "anti-alien" label on it.

[Curly Bill]

Are you really that simple? That obtuse? Does your mind lack all suppleness and flexibility? Do you see the world as a picture drawn with a black crayon?

Of course we don't bend over for theft. We oppose it; but we don't hang people for stealing a watch like we did in the good old days, and we don't chop their hands off for pinching a loaf of bread.
We should oppose illegal immigration, too. But that doesn't mean we have to embrace every ill-conceived law that has an "anti-alien" label on it.

Why do you mention black crayon? Sounds racist to me.

[JLEW1818]

RACIST!!!!!

[ndpruitt03]

Here's what needs to be done to solve the boarder problem. Make a dangerous life-threatening obstacle course out of the boarder between the US and Mexico if anyone lives going across that boarder they deserve citizenship.

[Curly Bill]

RACIST!!!!!

I know! The nerve of some people seeing crayons in terms of color. All crayons should be given fair and equal treatment, and if those crayons come from another country to better their lives who are we to hold that against said crayons?

[TUSooner]

Why do you mention black crayon? Sounds racist to me.

<banging face on keyboard>
hgbhygughuljuh
iijupoljpolip
oilupoiupoio
iiojoijupioijulh

[JLEW1818]

erection

[JLEW1818]

I know! The nerve of some people seeing crayons in terms of color. All crayons should be given fair and equal treatment, and if those crayons come from another country to better their lives who are we to hold that against said crayons?

yah no crap! the white crayon sucks!!! it does not show up on white paper!!! and i hate using black paper!!!!!!!!!!:confused: :D

[Curly Bill]

The white crayon does suck! Tell me that ain't messed up!

[Leroy Lizard]

Are you really that simple? That obtuse? Does your mind lack all suppleness and flexibility? Do you see the world as a picture drawn with a black crayon?

Here is what you said:


Illegal immigration is a black market. The invisible hand of the "market"
is at work: As long as people see a way to make a better life, they will do whatever they can to get it. Setting the police after those evil foreign brown people is a sop for deluded folk who think they can make all their problems go away by making "them" go away.

The implication is very clear here. Because they will desire to break the law and we cannot stop them, we shouldn't try.

There is no ambiguity there. You said it. Now own up to it.

[JLEW1818]

how bout we just shoot all people who steal or rape people in the face? We can add illegals too.

I would vote for that guy

[Curly Bill]

Open season on criminals of all kinds, I'm down with that...

...cept for peeps that drive too fast, cause I do like to drive fast, and really: Who am I hurting? ;)

[TUSooner]

Here is what you said:



The implication is very clear here. Because they will desire to break the law and we cannot stop them, we shouldn't try.

There is no ambiguity there. You said it. Now own up to it.

OK, so you ARE that obtuse. I said what I said, you just failed to comprehend it, but then, you weren't trying to. I guess it's the inverse Humpty Dumpty syndrome: My words mean whatever you say they mean.

We regulate markets all the time, but we don't always do it by suppressing them. We should acknowledge that people will desire certain things, and we should deal with those desires intelligently - I guess that's where I lost you, I assumed you'd figure there was more than one way to skin a cat. But I guess when your mind only works like hammer, every problem looks like a nail.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-572077907195969915#

[SicEmBaylor]

do you not understand? Just as states can't do crap to enforce federal laws on bankruptcy, they can't do crap to enforce immigration law and policy.

Again, explain to me exactly how Arizona is creating or establishing immigration law? They're doing no such thing. They're simply changing how they enforce existing Federal law. What part of that do you not understand? My guess the issue here is that, knowing you support amnesty, you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole to fit your agenda.

[SicEmBaylor]

In any case, I'm going to ask my Constitutional attorney friend about this because I fail to see how the Supreme Court would be unable to make the distinction between Arizona trying to create new immigration policy and changing how it enforces existing immigration policy.

He's one of the smartest people I know, has been widely published, and I'll accept his answer regardless of what it is. I'll post his exact answer here for all to see.


I'll also add he works for a public policy think tank.

[Leroy Lizard]

Illegal immigration is a black market. The invisible hand of the "market"
is at work: As long as people see a way to make a better life, they will do whatever they can to get it.

Some people WANT to steal. Some people WANT to shoplift. Some people WANT to cross the border illegally.

It doesn't matter what they WANT! We don't base our laws on what the criminal WANTS!

They are breaking the law. If we don't care if they break the law, then change the law to make their entry into the U.S. legal and open the floodgates. But as long as it is illegal, those entrusted with enforcing the law should try to stop them.

[SoonerNate]

Some people WANT to steal. Some people WANT to shoplift. Some people WANT to cross the border illegally.

It doesn't matter what they WANT! We don't base our laws on what the criminal WANTS!

They are breaking the law. If we don't care if they break the law, then change the law to make their entry into the U.S. legal and open the floodgates. But as long as it is illegal, those entrusted with enforcing the law should try to stop them.

Dems reaction: But but but, someday we'll give them anmesty and they'll vote for us!

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Dems reaction: But but but, someday we'll give them anmesty and they'll vote for us!

We have a winner!!!

The dems will further the planned underclass since the inception of "The Great Society" , "feed the I am owned by the gubmint monster" and create a larger group of people beholding to the gubmint for everything they have, shelter, food and spending money (I can't call it income as they didn't do anything to earn it) and will continually vote for those who will likely bestow it upon them. This is purely about dims continuing in power. If it was about Patriotism or what's best for the citizen's, then we would have a wall, strict inforcement of our immigration laws and likely troups on the border to kill the Narco terrorists.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

...that doesn't mean we have to embrace every ill-conceived law that has an "anti-alien" label on it.ALMOST got it right! "anti-illegal alien" is correct. See, you being a loyer and all, you prolly should have included that important word, instead of omitting it.

[Frozen Sooner]

http://www.internetromanesc.com/website/videos/news-politics/reagan/ronald-reagan-picture.jpg

Noted liberal Democrat.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Again, explain to me exactly how Arizona is creating or establishing immigration law? They're doing no such thing. They're simply changing how they enforce existing Federal law. What part of that do you not understand? My guess the issue here is that, knowing you support amnesty, you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole to fit your agenda.One of your best posts, kid.

[Leroy Lizard]

Dems reaction: But but but, someday we'll give them anmesty and they'll vote for us!

Nailed it.

[Leroy Lizard]

Noted liberal Democrat.

Hmmm... sarcasm?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

For once Froze thinks Reagan is infallible.(even when he made one of his rare mistakes)

[Ike]

So I'm curious about this part of the bill:

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.htm


A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE.
2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE.
3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL IDENTIFICATION.
4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT ISSUED IDENTIFICATION.

If I am reading this correctly, if you are traveling in AZ, and the state you are from does not require proof of legal presence in the US before issuing a drivers license, then you should probably be traveling with a birth certificate and/or passport? Anyone?

[Leroy Lizard]

So I'm curious about this part of the bill:

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.htm



If I am reading this correctly, if you are traveling in AZ, and the state you are from does not require proof of legal presence in the US before issuing a drivers license, then you should probably be traveling with a birth certificate and/or passport? Anyone?

That would likely be outside AZ's bounds to enforce. Most likely, they are referring to an Arizona agency that requires proof of legal residence. Not sure I can conjure any examples.

[Crucifax Autumn]

I can actually live with this bill as long as cops don't act like jackholes and card everyone who looks a little more tan than Edgar Winter. I hope they also allow some sort of due process as far as giving people a chance to prove they actually are citizens.

Does anyone know if the bill also included authority to fine or otherwise punish the people who hire the illegals? Seems to me, as I've stated on numerous occasions, that no law will help without attacking the problem from both sides.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

http://www.internetromanesc.com/website/videos/news-politics/reagan/ronald-reagan-picture.jpg

Noted liberal Democrat.

Saw the error and corrected it...

[Frozen Sooner]

So I'm curious about this part of the bill:

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.htm



If I am reading this correctly, if you are traveling in AZ, and the state you are from does not require proof of legal presence in the US before issuing a drivers license, then you should probably be traveling with a birth certificate and/or passport? Anyone?

Yes.

[Ike]

Thats kinda what I thought it was saying Froz. I almost wonder when the first tourists will start getting shaken down by the PoPo on suspicion of being Canadian.

[StoopTroup]

I say card everybody.

SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!

[TUSooner]

Some people WANT to steal. Some people WANT to shoplift. Some people WANT to cross the border illegally.

It doesn't matter what they WANT! We don't base our laws on what the criminal WANTS!

They are breaking the law. If we don't care if they break the law, then change the law to make their entry into the U.S. legal and open the floodgates. But as long as it is illegal, those entrusted with enforcing the law should try to stop them.

No argument with that general principle. I just don't think the AZ law is a good way to do it. Perhaps you'd support a bounty on wetback scalps?

Your "arguments" have, as usual, devolved to mere contradiction and misrepresentation. Either that, or you are being so ironic that it's over my head.

Did you even look at the Monty Python Argument Clinic Sketch?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-572077907195969915#

You be John Cleese, and I'll be Michael Palin walking out the door.

[TUSooner]

Dems reaction: But but but, someday we'll give them anmesty and they'll vote for us!

You know, many Latinos are pretty conservative personally, so I've heard, and the Republicans could actually win their votes. But they'd have to stop shooting at them first. "Bunker" conservatism excludes potential allies and doesn't advance any good cause.

[Curly Bill]

No argument with that general principle. I just don't think the AZ law is a good way to do it. Perhaps you'd support a bounty on wetback scalps?

Now that's a good idea!

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Here's what needs to be done to solve the boarder problem.

What's wrong with Boarder? He seems like a nice enough guy to me.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I am wondering which states will get in line to pass a similar bill. If you don't, you will be getting all the illegals that will no longer funnel through AZ.

[olevetonahill]

No argument with that general principle. I just don't think the AZ law is a good way to do it. Perhaps you'd support a bounty on wetback scalps?

Your "arguments" have, as usual, devolved to mere contradiction and misrepresentation. Either that, or you are being so ironic that it's over my head.

Did you even look at the Monty Python Argument Clinic Sketch?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-572077907195969915#

You be John Cleese, and I'll be Michael Palin walking out the door.



Theres a Bounty on Wet Back scalps ? Where I cash em , I done went got me a 100 er so .

[delhalew]

This bill will make profiling more difficult. There has to be an offense, and if the offense does not warrant arrest, the subject cannot be arrested on basis of citizenship without first contacting ICE to verify illegal status.
I also heard from an officer who is leading the training of officers to carry out the law without any civil rights violations. It's a pretty well put together law.

[Okla-homey]

They're simply changing how they enforce existing Federal law.

That's it! Eureka!! You got it right. Let me state it a different way in case I'm wrong about your little light bulb that just seems to have gone on. You know...since you're not a college graduate and all. States no touchy or enforcey federal laws. Got it?

[Okla-homey]

So, since this is a lawyers world and we're all just living in it; in legal terms, are establish and enforce synonyms?

yes, in this context.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I am wondering which states will get in line to pass a similar bill. If you don't, you will be getting all the illegals that will no longer funnel through AZ.Heard on the radio today that some Mex. officials were telling their populace to not deal with AZ, or AZ is not our friend, or some such thing that might discourage them from coming here...the law is already working.

[Okla-homey]

In any case, I'm going to ask my Constitutional attorney friend about this because I fail to see how the Supreme Court would be unable to make the distinction between Arizona trying to create new immigration policy and changing how it enforces existing immigration policy.

He's one of the smartest people I know, has been widely published, and I'll accept his answer regardless of what it is. I'll post his exact answer here for all to see.


I'll also add he works for a public policy think tank.

Fine, but make sure you pose the question correctly. May I suggest, "May a state place tighter regulation and/or enforcement in the field of immigration and naturalization than the Federal government?" Because that is precisely the dispositive issue here.

[delhalew]

yes, in this context.

The more I hear about this law, the more I think it will stand. It's clear that people are reacting without knowing what it says.

[delhalew]

Fine, but make sure you pose the question correctly. May I suggest, "May a state place tighter regulation and/or enforcement in the field of immigration and naturalization than the Federal government?" Because that is precisely the dispositive issue here.

That's the problem. Tighter on regulation...no. Tighter on enforcement...remains to be seen. It is simply a reaction to ICE doing nothing. So maybe it is tighter on enforcement.

All this centers on one thing. When you have a criminal in your holding cell, are you allowed to determine his citizenship?

[Okla-homey]

All this centers on one thing. When you have a criminal in your holding cell, are you allowed to determine his citizenship?

I respectfully disagree. You can do that. What you can't do is arrest people because they look "illegal," which is precisely what this new statute empowers AZ authorities to do.

I should think the libertarian crowd would be marching on Flagstaff on this issue. Think about it. Arresting people based on their appearance. Yikes!

[Frozen Sooner]

Unless Sic 'em's friend is Larry Tribe or someone similarly august, I'm going to take his answer with a grain of salt, since Erwin Chemerinsky just came out and agreed 100% with Homey.

[delhalew]

I respectfully disagree. You can do that. What you can't do is arrest people because they look "illegal," which is precisely what this new statute empowers AZ authorities to do.

I should think the libertarian crowd would be marching on Flagstaff on this issue. Think about it. Arresting people based on their appearance. Yikes!

That is exactly the opposite of what this law empowers AZ to do. Were are you getting this?

[delhalew]

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

[olevetonahill]

I respectfully disagree. You can do that. What you can't do is arrest people because they look "illegal," which is precisely what this new statute empowers AZ authorities to do.

I should think the libertarian crowd would be marching on Flagstaff on this issue. Think about it. Arresting people based on their appearance. Yikes!

Home slice
Reread this law ok ?

[delhalew]

Refried Beans Without the Refry



Ingredients

* 1 onion, peeled and halved
* 3 cups dry pinto beans, rinsed
* 1/2 fresh jalapeno pepper, seeded and chopped
* 2 tablespoons minced garlic
* 5 teaspoons salt
* 1 3/4 teaspoons fresh ground black pepper
* 1/8 teaspoon ground cumin, optional
* 9 cups water

Directions

1. Place the onion, rinsed beans, jalapeno, garlic, salt, pepper, and cumin into a slow cooker. Pour in the water and stir to combine. Cook on High for 8 hours, adding more water as needed. Note: if more than 1 cup of water has evaporated during cooking, then the temperature is too high.
2. Once the beans have cooked, strain them, and reserve the liquid. Mash the beans with a potato masher, adding the reserved water as needed to attain desired consistency.


I'd go a little lighter on the salt if I were you. I use about half that.

[JLEW1818]

burrito pablo

[olevetonahill]

See why I started a NEW thread ?

This law is working !:D

[47straight]

That's it! Eureka!! You got it right. Let me state it a different way in case I'm wrong about your little light bulb that just seems to have gone on. You know...since you're not a college graduate and all. States no touchy or enforcey federal laws. Got it?

Federally mandated gun checks.

Conditions upon spending bills.

Suing in state courts for constitutional violations.



I'd list more but I'd have to start charging you.

[Ike]

Federally mandated gun checks.
don't those go thru the FBI?



Conditions upon spending bills.

Thats more of a 'do this or you don't get this money' kind of thing...not really states enforcing federal law. One might even call it 'voluntary'.



Suing in state courts for constitutional violations.

I'm no lawyer, but isn't constitutional law a different beast than federal law?

[47straight]

Unless Sic 'em's friend is Larry Tribe or someone similarly august, I'm going to take his answer with a grain of salt, since Erwin Chemerinsky just came out and agreed 100% with Homey.

Comparative ranking of reliable legal authority.




Homey





Unknown appletini drinking buddy of SicEm

















9th Circuit Court of Appeals
Chemerinsky



Chemerinsky's nepotism-hired wife

[TUSooner]

Unless Sic 'em's friend is Larry Tribe or someone similarly august, I'm going to take his answer with a grain of salt, since Erwin Chemerinsky just came out and agreed 100% with Homey.

If both Chemerinski and I agree with Homey, then Homey is obviously right. :D

[47straight]

don't those go thru the FBI?


Thats more of a 'do this or you don't get this money' kind of thing...not really states enforcing federal law. One might even call it 'voluntary'.


I'm no lawyer, but isn't constitutional law a different beast than federal law?


Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the sheriff's had to do some part of it, and the states complained b/c they had to foot the bill. Then again, I've never bought a gun and so I don't really keep up with that.

Doesnt matter if its voluntary.

Conlaw is the supreme federal law.

[47straight]

The new law requires reasonable suspicion before anything else can happen.

Reasonable suspicion, by definition, cannot include racial profiling. Else it is not reasonable, and not constitutional.

If no reasonable suspicion ever existed to investigate illegal immigration, then noone would ever investigate it, even ICE. So, there have to be some bases for reasonable suspicion of illegal immigration.

That's why I cannot agree that the law is DOA unconstutional.

[Frozen Sooner]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the sheriff's had to do some part of it, and the states complained b/c they had to foot the bill. Then again, I've never bought a gun and so I don't really keep up with that.

Doesnt matter if its voluntary.

Conlaw is the supreme federal law.

You're thinking of United States v. Printz.

[Frozen Sooner]

Comparative ranking of reliable legal authority.




Homey





Unknown appletini drinking buddy of SicEm

















9th Circuit Court of Appeals
Chemerinsky



Chemerinsky's nepotism-hired wife

That's pretty cruddy that you think Homey is worse than Sic 'Em's buddy.

[SicEmBaylor]

That's pretty cruddy that you think Homey is worse than Sic 'Em's buddy.

Really? You only know half the equation.

In any case, is it cruddy I think more of the toothless homeless drunk in Waco who spends all day nursing a bottle of malt liquor than I do of Homey?

[TUSooner]

Lemme say this, since I've seen more illegal reentry cases than most of y'all have had sex (with another person, I mean). In something like 80% of cases (a guess, it may be more), these guys are discovered to be illegal because they are already in jail for something else, usually something small-time, sometimes serious stuff. Rarely, ICE/DHS removes them or lets them "depart voluntarily". Most often they plead guilty to illegal reentry and get some jail time. But arresting and jailing these guys is like bailing water on the Titanic, They go and come back; they get more jail time; they go and come back. Repeat offenders are the rule rather than the exception. Judges could give up to 20 years if the guy committed certain types of crimes before he got deported, but I've never seen that as far as I can recall. Usually it's like 2 to 5 years (not that I have all the data by any means).

That's one reason why the AZ law is road apples, aside from it's fatal Constitutional flaws. As I've said before, it's merely a sop for for the paranoid anti-alien crowd. It's a cynical gesture by pandering politicians to make themselves look tough. It's really a meaningless pain in the asz for local cops (who have enough to do already). It doesn't help the courts that have to deal with these people. And it tramples on the rights of innocent folk who have the wrong color and accent, while gathering up maybe a handful more illegals who just get on and off the merry-go-round and who'd probably get caught anyway. Most illegal aliens who work and mind their own business don't get found out.

People who think illegal aliens are living the life of Reilly on our dime are exaggerating or totally misinformed about the quality of life for most of these people. Life's a bitch when papa gets deported because he got busted for some weed in 1992 while mama and the kiddies are citizens with a life in the USA. Sure, the hard cases deserve maximum penalties, but only someone with no concept of real life (like, say Sic'Em) can say "ship mom & them back, too" with a clear conscience or without a tinge of sympathy.

Again, I don't have all the data, but that's my impression based on my experience.

[SicEmBaylor]

Lemme say this, since I've seen more illegal reentry cases than most of y'all have had sex (with another person, I mean). In something like 80% of cases (a guess, it may be more), these guys are discovered to be illegal because they are already in jail for something else, usually something small-time, sometimes serious stuff. Rarely, ICE/DHS removes them or lets them "depart voluntarily". Most often they plead guilty to illegal reentry and get some jail time. But arresting and jailing these guys is like bailing water on the Titanic, They go and come back; they get more jail time; they go and come back. Repeat offenders are the rule rather than the exception. Judges could give up to 20 years if the guy committed certain types of crimes before he got deported, but I've never seen that as far as I can recall. Usually it's like 2 to 5 years (not that I have all the data by any means).

That's one reason why the AZ law is road apples, aside from it's fatal Constitutional flaws. As I've said before, it's merely a sop for for the paranoid anti-alien crowd. It's a cynical gesture by pandering politicians to make themselves look tough. It's really a meaningless pain in the asz for local cops (who have enough to do already). It doesn't help the courts that have to deal with these people. And it tramples on the rights of innocent folk who have the wrong color and accent, while gathering up maybe a handful more illegals who just get on and off the merry-go-round and who'd probably get caught anyway. Most illegal aliens who work and mind their own business don't get found out.

People who think illegal aliens are living the life of Reilly on our dime are exaggerating or totally misinformed about the quality of life for most of these people. Life's a bitch when papa gets deported because he got busted for some weed in 1992 while mama and the kiddies are citizens with a life in the USA. Sure, the hard cases deserve maximum penalties, but only someone with no concept of real life (like, say Sic'Em) can say "ship mom & them back, too" with a clear conscience or without a tinge of sympathy.

Again, I don't have all the data, but that's my impression based on my experience.

It is true that I have no sympathy for them. They're destroying our Western European identity on top of taking jobs on top of increasing crime rates on top of breaking the law. However, it is not true that I say, "Ship 'em all back." That's not even remotely possible. No, just like an infestation of parasites you have to go after their source of food/income to truly get rid of the problem. You go after businesses and farmers who employ these people with penalties so severe that no one would dare risk hiring an illegal. You take away their source of income and jobs and you'll get rid of the infestation.

I don't hate Mexicans, but Mexicans ought to stay the hell in Mexico. And don't think for a minute I feel this way JUST about Mexicans. I would cut off ALL immigration legal or otherwise. There is, however, something to be said for favoring immigrants from nations that share our Western European/Anglo-Saxon heritage over the hordes of the 3rd world. Anyone who says it's a great thing to dilute one's heritage and culture is woefully naive and politically correct to the point of being truly dangerous.

[Frozen Sooner]

Really? You only know half the equation.

In any case, is it cruddy I think more of the toothless homeless drunk in Waco who spends all day nursing a bottle of malt liquor than I do of Homey?

Context, SicEm. Context. I was making a "deliberately misunderstanding" joke.

[SicEmBaylor]

Oh. Carry on then.

[Ike]

It is true that I have no sympathy for them. They're destroying our Western European identity on top of taking jobs on top of increasing crime rates on top of breaking the law. However, it is not true that I say, "Ship 'em all back." That's not even remotely possible. No, just like an infestation of parasites you have to go after their source of food/income to truly get rid of the problem. You go after businesses and farmers who employ these people with penalties so severe that no one would dare risk hiring an illegal. You take away their source of income and jobs and you'll get rid of the infestation.

I don't hate Mexicans, but Mexicans ought to stay the hell in Mexico. And don't think for a minute I feel this way JUST about Mexicans. I would cut off ALL immigration legal or otherwise. There is, however, something to be said for favoring immigrants from nations that share our Western European/Anglo-Saxon heritage over the hordes of the 3rd world. Anyone who says it's a great thing to dilute one's heritage and culture is woefully naive and politically correct to the point of being truly dangerous.

Wow. I disagree with just about everything you just said there. This is exactly why I want more immigration. To drown this kind of thing out...

[Leroy Lizard]

Lemme say this, since I've seen more illegal reentry cases than most of y'all have had sex (with another person, I mean). In something like 80% of cases (a guess, it may be more), these guys are discovered to be illegal because they are already in jail for something else, usually something small-time, sometimes serious stuff. Rarely, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE, formerly the INS) removes them or lets them "depart voluntarily". Most often they plead guilty to illegal reentry and get some jail time. But arresting and jailing these guys is like bailing water on the Titanic, They go and come back; they get more jail time; they go and come back.

Is your point that because they repeatedly break the law we should not bother trying to enforce the law?

Are you willing to extend this logic to other crimes?

[delhalew]

I'm a big fan of Mexican immigrants. The ones that truly give a **** about anything have green cards, until such time as they assimilate themselves and learn the history and laws of our nation.
You know what I've noticed about nationalized immigrants, they are usually more knowledgeable and grateful than lazy-assed, trust fund baby, Che Guevara loving, products of American liberal society.

That said, I understand Sic'ems belief in a cessation of immigration. I think it should be considered on a temporary basis. I'm not sure I could support closing boarders entirely, but I'm open to discussing it.

[Curly Bill]

Wow. I disagree with just about everything you just said there. This is exactly why I want more immigration. To drown this kind of thing out...

Actually, if we don't do something about this immigration problem you're going to hear more of it.

...and I think Sicem is largely right, it's time to close and bolt the doors while we still can, but as has been explained that would cut into the donks voting base so it won't happen.

[Ike]

Actually, if we don't do something about this immigration problem you're going to hear more of it.

...and I think Sicem is largely right, it's time to close and bolt the doors while we still can, but as has been explained that would cut into the donks voting base so it won't happen.

psh...I tend to think otherwise. I think there is very little to be gained by closing and bolting the doors. I think legal immigration needs to be made easier. People looking to work to make their life better will make our lives better as well.

[SicEmBaylor]

Actually, if we don't do something about this immigration problem you're going to hear more of it.

...and I think Sicem is largely right, it's time to close and bolt the doors while we still can, but as has been explained that would cut into the donks voting base so it won't happen.

The Democrats have a LOT of Republican allies on this issue especially on the national level. Your rank and file Republicans and, usually, state Republican officials oppose amnesty. But you have a lot of Republicans on the national level who see amnesty as a way of courting that hispanic voter base since hispanics are the only minority group the Republican Party has had success with. Frankly, it is true the GOP can't survive future national elections without making inroads with some of America's minorities and hispanics are their best chance.

Having said that, it's an issue of killing the patient to cure the disease.

[SicEmBaylor]

psh...I tend to think otherwise. I think there is very little to be gained by closing and bolting the doors. I think legal immigration needs to be made easier. People looking to work to make their life better will make our lives better as well.

That copy of Utopia is rotting your brain.
I suggest Death of the West as an alternative.

[Curly Bill]

psh...I tend to think otherwise. I think there is very little to be gained by closing and bolting the doors. I think legal immigration needs to be made easier. People looking to work to make their life better will make our lives better as well.

Legal immigration? What the hell is that? Does anyone do that anymore? Why bother with that hassle when you can sneak over, and the only peeps that will care are us angry white racist guys?

[Ike]

That copy of Utopia is rotting your brain.
I suggest Death of the West as an alternative.

I'd suggest laying off the Zima...

[Ike]

Legal immigration? What the hell is that? Does anyone do that anymore? Why bother with that hassle when you can sneak over, and the only peeps that will care are us angry white racist guys?

Lots of people do it. Lots of people wait years to be able to do it. In all the furor over illegal immigration, what usually happens is legal immigration gets made more difficult....which leads to people saying 'screw it, I can't wait forever' and crossing illegally.

[Curly Bill]

Lots of people do it. Lots of people wait years to be able to do it. In all the furor over illegal immigration, what usually happens is legal immigration gets made more difficult....which leads to people saying 'screw it, I can't wait forever' and crossing illegally.

Well there ya go! I'm with Sicem - let's just stop all immigration then! :D

[SicEmBaylor]

In your heart, deep down in the cockles, you know I'm right.

[Curly Bill]

In your heart, deep down in the cockles, you know I'm right.

Oh, I do know it. It's been proven throughout history that a nation that can't, or won't, defend it's borders is on it's way to the slippery slope of FAIL.

[Harry Beanbag]

I should think the libertarian crowd would be marching on Flagstaff on this issue.


Libertarians are smart enough to know that the capital is Phoenix.

[olevetonahill]

psh...I tend to think otherwise. I think there is very little to be gained by closing and bolting the doors. I think legal immigration needs to be made easier. People looking to work to make their life better will make our lives better as well.

Yup , Making it easy fer the Muslims to immigrate here is really helping the American way of life .:rolleyes: :D

[ndpruitt03]

I like how Arizona's government is being called fascist and a police state when making everyone buy healthcare or you are going to punish them is the SAME EXACT THING!

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Oh, I do know it. It's been proven throughout history that a nation that can't, or won't, defend it's borders is on it's way to the slippery slope of FAIL.

Until the late 1990s, the southern border (or as delha calls it, boarder) was as good as open. It's only been tight and difficult to cross in the last 15 years or so. Yet we're the superpower of the world. We have the largest GDP of any country in the world.


I'm not sure I could support closing boarders entirely, but I'm open to discussing it.

OK let's discuss it. there are 325 ports of entry into the U.S. there are a million crossings each day. closing 325 ports of entry might just have some impact on commerce. The largest export industry in the U.S., as measured by foreign monies taken in, is tourism.



They're destroying our Western European identity on top of taking jobs

losing the cradle-to-grave welfare mentality of western europe would not be a bad thing and replacing it with a work ethic that makes people want to take jobs is a good thing. why are you afraid of competition? a plentiful labor pool is good for creating wealth. scarce labor is the enemy of economic growth.

The problem with the law is it gives the government too much power in deciding who gets employed. That role should be filled by the employer - the person who is risking his capital to create wealth. The employer is in the best position to determine who is most qualified for employment. You're a bunch of sorry-a$$ed conservatives seeking affirmative action for those who happened to roll out of their mother's vagina on U.S. soil. That doesn't make them most qualified.

Let the employer determine who he wants to hire and make those sorry-a$$ed gov't bureaucrats give em a damned worker visa if they need one.

Now several have mentioned that this new arizona law really no different from federal law - it's just an enforcement thing. Is overstaying a visa a federal civil or criminal offense?

[TUSooner]

It is true that I have no sympathy for them. They're destroying our Western European identity on top of taking jobs on top of increasing crime rates on top of breaking the law. However, it is not true that I say, "Ship 'em all back." That's not even remotely possible. No, just like an infestation of parasites you have to go after their source of food/income to truly get rid of the problem. You go after businesses and farmers who employ these people with penalties so severe that no one would dare risk hiring an illegal. You take away their source of income and jobs and you'll get rid of the infestation.

I don't hate Mexicans, but Mexicans ought to stay the hell in Mexico. And don't think for a minute I feel this way JUST about Mexicans. I would cut off ALL immigration legal or otherwise. There is, however, something to be said for favoring immigrants from nations that share our Western European/Anglo-Saxon heritage over the hordes of the 3rd world. Anyone who says it's a great thing to dilute one's heritage and culture is woefully naive and politically correct to the point of being truly dangerous.

Talk about your ivory tower intellectuals with no grasp of reality - you set the new benchmark standard. Do you know any real people? Have you ever met an immigrant, legal or not? How can a do-nothing like you, whose own posts suggest you have accomplished exactly nothing in your aimless life, call anyone a "parasite"? That's how Nazis talked about the Untermenschen. Your loathsome bigotry and ignorance are more dangerous to "our Western European/Anglo-Saxon heritage" than all the mythical hordes of illegal lettuce-pickers and hotel maids you despise. You're just awful.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

All this centers on one thing. When you have a criminal in your holding cell, are you allowed to determine his citizenship?

A passage from the law says,

"A law enforcement officer, without a warrant, may arrest a person if the officer has probable cause to believe that person has committed any public offense that makes the person removable from the United States."


delah is jive talkin - it's just not clear from which orifice he talks.


and then we have Lizard, who thinks probable cause should be speaking Spanish.

[TUSooner]

Is your point that because they repeatedly break the law we should not bother trying to enforce the law?

Are you willing to extend this logic to other crimes?

No and no.
You well know that's not what I said or implied.
I'm not playing your game. So shove your strawman up your ***.

EDIT: On second thought, you may extract the strawman, but I hope it leaves splinters. By all means deport and imprison the criminals, it is not without some effect. Just don't delude yourself into thinking that you can actually solve the underlying problem only in that way.

[jkjsooner]

I didn't read all 11 pages of this. I do have one comment though. Had Obama done something like this Rush and Tuba and several others here would have started screaming, "Stalin" and "Where are you papers?" in their best Russian voice.

We used to denounce communist countries for requiring citizens to show their papers.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Vet, I don't think there's any requirement that I have identification on me at all times - as long as I'm not driving. That's a new one to me. If there is such a requirement then I'm strongly opposed to it.

[jkjsooner]

I like how Arizona's government is being called fascist and a police state when making everyone buy healthcare or you are going to punish them is the SAME EXACT THING!

That hardly seems like the same thing to me.

The tax penalty (within Congress's taxation authority) is designed to encourage people to get health insurance. The idea is that you can get insurance even if you are sick. Since there is otherwise limited incentive to not have insurance until you get sick, there needs to be some type of incentive to buying insurance (or disincentive to not buying it).

I'm fine with those who think this is a major flaw in the healthcare reform. To be honest, they lowered the penalty so much that is really is no icentive to buy insurance which could really kill the reforms.

Anyway, that's hardly the same as some authority asking its citizens for their paperwork all of the time. To me that is going down a path that we do not want to go.

I'm all fine with the states enforcing immigration by requiring proof of citizenship for those who have been arrested but requiring general proof of citizenship for guys walking down the street seems - well almost fascist.

[TUSooner]

All this centers on one thing. When you have a criminal in your holding cell, are you allowed to determine his citizenship?

This already happens all the time.

[jkjsooner]

I just looked it up on wikipedia (for what that's worth). You only need identification for certain activities - not a general requirement.

The United States does not have a national identity card, however, driver's licenses issued by the respective state governments have become the de facto identity card for several purposes, including purchasing alcohol and tobacco, opening bank accounts, and boarding planes. Individuals who do not drive are able to obtain an identification card with the same functionality from the same state agency that issues driver's licenses.

I don't really have an issue with how we're treating illegals. My issue is more with the damn hypocrisy and inconsistency we see in our political discussions - both on here and in general.

[Okla-homey]

That is exactly the opposite of what this law empowers AZ to do. Were are you getting this?

When I was trained to read a statute and understand its implications. In fact, I have a license granted by the Supreme Court of the State of Oklahoma that says I demonstrated the required level of competence in doing so.:D

[yermom]

SicEm is awful. water is wet.

fixed ;)

i think the core of a lot of this is that a lot of people don't like the idea of a future where their boss or their son in law speaks Spanish

[47straight]

This already happens all the time.

Yes, but it's only done by ICE. The law allows state officials to make the same inquiry, correct? B/c essentially the administration has stopped cooperating with Sheriff Hard Time in phoenix?

[TUSooner]

Yes, but it's only done by ICE. The law allows state officials to make the same inquiry, correct? B/c essentially the administration has stopped cooperating with Sheriff Hard Time in phoenix?

I don't know, esp re: AZ. But as far as I know, the local cops seem to cooperate freely with ICE in TX and are not themselves barred from ascertaining a prisoner's status.

[Harry Beanbag]

i think the core of a lot of this is that a lot of people don't like the idea of a future where their boss or their son in law speaks Spanish

I think the core of a lot of this line of thinking is intellectual laziness.

[yermom]

when people start whining about how whites will be in the minority soon, and that our culture is at stake, what are they talking about?

[Harry Beanbag]

when people start whining about how whites will be in the minority soon, and that our culture is at stake, what are they talking about?


A lot of things that you don't care about so you don't see a problem with. The end result being America is no longer America.

[yermom]

so, you're agreeing with me :D

[TUSooner]

A lot of things that you don't care about so you don't see a problem with. The end result being America is no longer America.

You stole that quote from Geronimo, huh?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

when people start whining about how whites will be in the minority soon, and that our culture is at stake, what are they talking about?It's the possible loss of culture, and more importantly, the legal makeup and character of the country, that concern lots of folks, rather than one's color or features. I believe you realize that, or is Harry correct about intellectual laziness?

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I respectfully disagree. You can do that. What you can't do is arrest people because they look "illegal," which is precisely what this new statute empowers AZ authorities to do.

I should think the libertarian crowd would be marching on Flagstaff on this issue. Think about it. Arresting people based on their appearance. Yikes!

Everything I have read on this law, this will not happen. As in any case of "contact" you are and will continue to be asked for a valid form of ID. If you have, you are good to go and will not be asked about citizenship. If not, then you have some 'splainin' to do.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

A passage from the law says,

"A law enforcement officer, without a warrant, may arrest a person if the officer has probable cause to believe that person has committed any public offense that makes the person removable from the United States."


delah is jive talkin - it's just not clear from which orifice he talks.


and then we have Lizard, who thinks probable cause should be speaking Spanish.
San Joaquin - does that mean illegals having secks with kids??? ;)

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Okay, outside of the Nazi or the Racist comments please...

Why is it not okay to police our borders (or boarders) and why is it not okay to prevent people from being in the country illegally, contrary to our laws, and deport said people. Every country does this, many more strict than us and some less strict (France comes to mind- hell they wave you through at the airport).

Would anyone be up in arms if we had a problem with Canadians crossing our borders for jobs and shipping them back North? I tell you what, Canada is one of the hardest country to get in when going over for business. EVERYTHING I do is ALWAYS a meeting. That or be turned back or pay a big fine for working and taking a Canadian's job away.

[Harry Beanbag]

Okay, outside of the Nazi or the Racist comments please...

Why is it not okay to police our borders (or boarders) and why is it not okay to prevent people from being in the country illegally, contrary to our laws, and deport said people. Every country does this, many more strict than us and some less strict (France comes to mind- hell they wave you through at the airport).

Would anyone be up in arms if we had a problem with Canadians crossing our borders for jobs and shipping them back North? I tell you what, Canada is one of the hardest country to get in when going over for business. EVERYTHING I do is ALWAYS a meeting. That or be turned back or pay a big fine for working and taking a Canadian's job away.


That's really all the opponents have. Refried beans and swastikas.

[yermom]

i take issue with it being probable cause to stop someone suspected for being illegal

if they get pulled over and can't provide ID, that's one thing

but still, even then, what about me? what if i left my wallet at home, how do you know i'm not some Canadian taking your job?

[ndpruitt03]

If it is okay for people not legally in this country to not show ID if asked then I think it is okay to never show my drivers license if being stopped by a police officer. Is that okay?

[TUSooner]

Evil immigrants ruining America!

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9489/politicalcartoon.jpg
Irish and Germans stealing a ballot box.

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/1319/img01039it.jpg

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5799/germanriot1851.jpg
"Riot at Hoboken, May 1, 1851." German immigrants battled nativists. The Germans, all from New York City, rented a cricket ground near Hoboken for the May Day celebrations and were attacked by a nativist gang from New York called the "Short Boys." A bloody street battle followed.

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/2168/knownothingflag.jpg
The flag of the Know Nothing Party

Nothing is new.

[ndpruitt03]

There's a big difference from legal and illegal immigrants. It's no longer wrong to do something not legal.