Gov. Jan Brewer signs bill to get tough on illegal immigration

[Leroy Lizard]

And it's wrong to find out if they're doing anything illegal.

[yermom]

If it is okay for people not legally in this country to not show ID if asked then I think it is okay to never show my drivers license if being stopped by a police officer. Is that okay?

that's my question

if you aren't basing it on race, things could get pretty uncomfortable for anyone in AZ

[ndpruitt03]

that's my question

if you aren't basing it on race, things could get pretty uncomfortable for anyone in AZ

The way I read this law they can stop anyone and ask if they are here legally. For example of someone is from Europe or something like that. But shouldn't this already be the law anyway?

[yermom]

"papers, please"

[ndpruitt03]

"papers, please"

I don't know why the government is against this, they want us to do it with health care and we have to do this when we get caught driving too fast or run a stop sign/light.

[soonervegas]

Evil immigrants ruining America!

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9489/politicalcartoon.jpg
Irish and Germans stealing a ballot box.

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/1319/img01039it.jpg

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5799/germanriot1851.jpg
"Riot at Hoboken, May 1, 1851." German immigrants battled nativists. The Germans, all from New York City, rented a cricket ground near Hoboken for the May Day celebrations and were attacked by a nativist gang from New York called the "Short Boys." A bloody street battle followed.

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/2168/knownothingflag.jpg
The flag of the Know Nothing Party

Nothing is new.

I need to throw in Gangs of New York when I get home tonight....thanks.

[ndpruitt03]

If you want to get most jobs you have to show ID and that you are a citizen. This should be illegal according to the democrats.

[ndpruitt03]

To drink alcohol you have to show your papers when asked. Can you say biased against young people!

[soonerscuba]

Do you really not see the irony of calling gov't fascist out of one side of your mouth while taking no umberage with unwarranted ID checks out of the other? Of course not, you don't understand what fascism, socialism or irony even mean.

[yermom]

I don't know why the government is against this, they want us to do it with health care and we have to do this when we get caught driving too fast or run a stop sign/light.

yeah, but we're talking about just walking/driving down the street

[ndpruitt03]

I think this is wrong only because it basically goes after one group. That's basically what this law is doing. But the left is trying to call this fascist when they themselves are closer to fascist with the said laws above.

[ndpruitt03]

yeah, but we're talking about just walking/driving down the street

And I gave other examples. You do something illegal when driving you show ID. That should be illegal according to the far left. Same with showing ID when trying to buy alcohol underage. When you do something illegal you pretty much have to show your papers. That's the very definition of what those that are here illegally are doing.

[yermom]

while we're at it, it'a also racist to demand a photo ID to vote ;)

but seriously, somehow we are talking about different things

[TUSooner]

There's a big difference from legal and illegal immigrants.

I was actually responding to the Sic'Em line of argument.
There is obvioulsy a theoretical distinction between legal and illegal immimgrants. Our office reviews hundreds of illegal reentry cases each year. Our court affirms almost every sentence. But the distinction begs a few questions, just for the sake of argument.

What IS the difference, exactly, aside from the self-fulfilling act of saying that some are illegal?

Why are some illegal in the first place? Of course, unlimited migration might be asburd, but might one reason be that we don't want certain immigrants at all?

Then there's the fact that some of the folks all up in arms over illegal immigrants are simply hiding behind the distinction as a way of legitimizing their anti-all-immigrant sentiments. Everytime you see someone talking like Sic 'Em (protecting our way of life, parasites, etc.), you can reckon this is happening somewherein their head, whether they admit it (like Sic'Em) or whether they don't.

Perhaps I paint with too-broad a brush, but the main issue to me is that almost nobody is actually thinking about the problem of immigration in more than bumper-sticker terms. They just take sides based, in many cases I think, on misinformation, incomplete information, or scare-tactics that are based on an anti-all-immigration view) or at least anti-all-non-english-speaking-immigrants. I'm not above it. I might prefer to live next to an illegal Canadian professor than a family of legal Guatemalans (depending on the circumstances), but even so, my prejudices should not be the law. Of course, if Muslims start trying to pass sharia type ordinances in my town I'll be at the barricades fighting against it.

Just THINK before you act on every little thing you hear.

And see this in SUPPORT of Arizona; at least the dude is THINKING instead of slamming.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/clarence-b-jones/somebody-close-the-door-r_b_553937.html

This too, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rt-rev-kirk-stevan-smith/arizonas-anti-immigration_b_554754.html

(And no, I don't belive in everything I see on the Huffington Post, I find The Onion generally more trustworthy. :rolleyes:)

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

woops. carry on

[TUSooner]

This message is hidden because RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone! is on your ignore list.
?

[Bourbon St Sooner]

If both Chemerinski and I agree with Homey, then Homey is obviously right. :D

Chemerinski doesn't sound Western European to me. He's probably all for destroying our culture.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

?Don't blame you. The way I hurl insults at you, you did the right thing.

[Harry Beanbag]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/clarence-b-jones/somebody-close-the-door-r_b_553937.html


That guy is right. Arizona has done what they can to bring this issue back to Washington's feet. I have no doubt that Washington will continue to screw the pooch on it.

Illegals cost Arizona around $1.3 Billion dollars a year. Coincidentally, that is just about the state budget shortfall the last couple of years.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

The esteemed D mayor of PHX, Phil Gordon, is suing the state of AZ over the new illegal immigration law. Ha! I hope the conservatives in govt. have the acumen to refocus on the Travesty that is Obama's Socialized Medicine.

[Okla-homey]

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

-- Emma Lazarus, on the unveiling of the Statue of Liberty

P.S. Except beaners. Love, Arizona.

[Harry Beanbag]

P.S. Except beaners. Love, Arizona.


Awesome, now even the esteemed Counselor Homey is throwing the race card. Pathetic. :rolleyes:

[TUSooner]

Awesome, now even the esteemed Counselor Homey is throwing the race card. Pathetic. :rolleyes:

Some times the fricking shoe just fits, dammit. Then ya gotta wear it, Cinderella. :P

[SanJoaquinSooner]

What IS the difference, exactly, aside from the self-fulfilling act of saying that some are illegal?


In the mid-90s when the internet boom hit, my neighbor across the street started a home business where customers ordered stuff over the internet and he shipped out of his home.

It turned out he was in violation of the zoning laws, as his house was zoned residential and not commercial.

So he went to the planning commission and submitted a request for a rezoning, so he could continue his home business. He paid a fee and the commission approved it. Some might mischaracterize it as giving him amnesty.

The two main reasons migrants come are (1) to work or (2) to be with loved ones. Neither of those is inherently evil like rape or murder or theft.

We need to rezone those who want to work. Rezone them legal.

[TopDawg]

For the people concerned about the loss of our culture, or about America no longer being America, can you please explain what our American culture is?

[Okla-homey]

Some times the fricking shoe just fits, dammit. Then ya gotta wear it, Cinderella. :P

The real irony is, a lot of these illegal folks wouldn't be here illegaly but for the fact the US/MEX border moved a lot farther south in the wake of the Mexican War and treaty of peace that followed in which Mexico was compelled to convey millions of acres of northern Mexico to the US. ;)

[ndpruitt03]

In the mid-90s when the internet boom hit, my neighbor across the street started a home business where customers ordered stuff over the internet and he shipped out of his home.

It turned out he was in violation of the zoning laws, as his house was zoned residential and not commercial.

So he went to the planning commission and submitted a request for a rezoning, so he could continue his home business. He paid a fee and the commission approved it. Some might mischaracterize it as giving him amnesty.

The two main reasons migrants come is (1) to work or (2) to be with loved ones. Neither of those is inherently evil like rape or murder or theft.

We need to rezone those who want to work. Rezone them legal.

Neither is doing drugs or drinking or getting caught speeding. If you are not here legally you should be sent back to where you came from. If you are here legally, you can do what you want.

[Leroy Lizard]

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

-- Emma Lazarus, on the unveiling of the Statue of Liberty .

I see nothing in there that obligates the U.S. to look the other way when people cross into our country illegally.

And I especially don't see anything in there that obligates our country to tax legal residents to pay for illegal aliens' social services.

Besides, the sonnet of Emma's is not exactly official U.S. policy.

[TopDawg]

I see nothing in there that obligates the U.S. to look the other way when people cross into our country illegally.

And I especially don't see anything in there that obligates our country to tax legal residents to pay for illegal aliens' social services.

Besides, the sonnet of Emma's is not exactly official U.S. policy.

It's times like this that I would think "Hmmm, since this has nothing to do with anything I've said in this thread, maybe it's not directed at me. Maybe, since it seems to be related to what Sic 'Em has said, it's aimed more at him."

[Leroy Lizard]

It's times like this that I would think "Hmmm, since this has nothing to do with anything I've said in this thread, maybe it's not directed at me. Maybe, since it seems to be related to what Sic 'Em has said, it's aimed more at him."

Since I pulled the quote from Homey, why would you think this was about you in the first place?

[SicEmBaylor]

Those huddled masses that flocked to Ellis Island were a very different breed than what we're dealing with today. Back then, immigrant communities made a concerted effort to adapt, change, and fit in with larger US society. Sure they kept some of their old-ways at home, but in general they assimilated.

Modern liberals make every effort to encourage newly arrived immigrants to retain their culture and identity and do little to encourage adaptation and assimilation. It's a threat and when you have huge groups of 3rd world immigrants making little effort to assimilate into traditional American society you create a real threat to our society.

If their culture was so fantastic then why did they leave it? I get a kick out of Mexican immigrants or even ethnically Mexican American citizens waving Mexican flags. Get a clue. If Mexico was so damned great that you wave its flag in our streets then why don't you hop on the back of a f'ing burro and head back down there? It disgusts me.

My family is predominantly Anglo-Saxon. Do you see me waving a Union Jack in the streets? Christ-O.

[TopDawg]

Since I pulled the quote from Homey, why would you think this was about you in the first place?

Wow. You got to the bar quick today.

[Leroy Lizard]

I thought at one time of emigrating to New Zealand. If I had, I would have become the biggest New Zealander around. No more American flags. And I would have pulled for New Zealand to beat the U.S. in whatever sport appeared on the telly.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Neither is doing drugs or drinking or getting caught speeding. If you are not here legally you should be sent back to where you came from. If you are here legally, you can do what you want.

The planning commission could have said, your house is zoned residential. If you want to do business, you'll have to leave.

But they didn't. They rezoned.


Once tattoo parlors were illegal, and then Oklahoma chose to rezone them legal. They gave tattoo artists amnesty.

We change laws all the time. we change a behavior from illegal to legal. We can just as easily adjust the status of a guy who is most qualified for a job.

[Curly Bill]

With the liberal slurpfest that went on here today my question is this: if instead of posting their words they were to actually speak them, would it sound like a huge den of snakes?

[ndpruitt03]

The planning commission could have said, you house is zoned residential. If you want to do business, you'll have to leave.

But they didn't. They rezoned.


Once tattoo parlors were illegal, and then Oklahoma chose to rezone them legal. They gave tattoo artists amnesty.

We change laws all the time. we change a behavior from illegal to legal. We can just as easily adjust the status of a guy who is most qualified for a job.

Okay but what does that have to do with this. If you get caught doing something wrong or trying to do something wrong don't we already have to show people our papers? And most here would agree there's nothing wrong with it. The feds should already have a similar policy like the law in AZ to stop stuff like this. Instead they sidestep the issue and allow people to live here illegally. If they want to use this angle to everything else illegal we should all grow weed, kill people, and drive as fast as we want to.

[Curly Bill]

If they'll let me drive as fast as I want to, I'll agree to be OK with the U.S. not enforcing its laws concerning illegals. :D

[jkjsooner]

And I gave other examples. You do something illegal when driving you show ID. That should be illegal according to the far left. Same with showing ID when trying to buy alcohol underage. When you do something illegal you pretty much have to show your papers. That's the very definition of what those that are here illegally are doing.

There are perfectly valid reasons to expect paperwork in those cases.

Driving - Must have a license that shows you are competent to occupy a motor vehicle.

Buying alcohol - Must have proof that you are of age to buy alcohol.

Voting - Must prove identity to prove you a valid / registered voter. (That should be the case so let's not get off-topic talking about the furthest left who have a problem with this.)

Boarding a plane is a special case but as a society we've pretty much agreed to give up some rights due to the unusual and exceptional security risks that it poses.

Surely you can see the difference between these and some guy sitting in a restaurant, jogging down the street, etc. being expected to prove identity. We have never had a general requirement to prove one's identity unless there is a compelling reason to do so.

If I'm walking down the street minding my own business, it's nobody's damn business who I am.

I go jogging a lot and it's hard enough to carry my keys with me. I don't want to live in a country where I could get stopped for no reason (other than a general expectation that I prove my identity) and hauled off to jail because I don't have papers on me.

[ndpruitt03]

I don't see the difference if you are actually breaking the law like being here illegally. If you are here legally you can prove that and have nothing to worry about and can sue the police for wrongful prosecution. If we treat someone doing something illegal like we do aliens the same way we shouldn't have laws against anything.

[jkjsooner]

Those huddled masses that flocked to Ellis Island were a very different breed than what we're dealing with today. Back then, immigrant communities made a concerted effort to adapt, change, and fit in with larger US society. Sure they kept some of their old-ways at home, but in general they assimilated.

Modern liberals make every effort to encourage newly arrived immigrants to retain their culture and identity and do little to encourage adaptation and assimilation. It's a threat and when you have huge groups of 3rd world immigrants making little effort to assimilate into traditional American society you create a real threat to our society.

If their culture was so fantastic then why did they leave it? I get a kick out of Mexican immigrants or even ethnically Mexican American citizens waving Mexican flags. Get a clue. If Mexico was so damned great that you wave its flag in our streets then why don't you hop on the back of a f'ing burro and head back down there? It disgusts me.

My family is predominantly Anglo-Saxon. Do you see me waving a Union Jack in the streets? Christ-O.

A couple of points... I've heard many argue that immigrants at the turn of the 20th century did not integrate with our societies nearly as much as we believe. In general the first generation immigrants did not learn the language. It was only the second and third generations that fully integrated into our society.

As for the flag thing, I hear what you're saying but let's say I got a job in England. During World Cup time (if I gave a damn about soccer) I might very well show my American pride and wave our flag. Showing pride in one's heritage is not necessarily the in-your-face demonstration that it appears that you take it. It also doesn't mean that they think Mexico is somehow superior to the U.S. It's simply pride of who they are and where they came from.

Now when they replace the US flag with a Mexican flag (as happened in California) that's a different story altogether.

I also doubt that we have the same identification with England that first generation Americans (or illegals) have with their countries of origin.

[Harry Beanbag]

Some times the fricking shoe just fits, dammit. Then ya gotta wear it, Cinderella. :P


Right. If only you guys knew just how unbelievably wrong you were. :P

[Harry Beanbag]

The real irony is, a lot of these illegal folks wouldn't be here illegaly but for the fact the US/MEX border moved a lot farther south in the wake of the Mexican War and treaty of peace that followed in which Mexico was compelled to convey millions of acres of northern Mexico to the US. ;)


WTF does that have to do with anything? Even remotely? It's not ironic, it's history. By the same token, does that mean you live in France? You are heavily reaching today, your lawyerspeak is better than this nonsense.

[jkjsooner]

I don't see the difference if you are actually breaking the law like being here illegally. If you are here legally you can prove that and have nothing to worry about and can sue the police for wrongful prosecution. If we treat someone doing something illegal like we do aliens the same way we shouldn't have laws against anything.

So you're fine with going out for a jog, being stopped at a citizens checkpoint, being hauled off to the police station until you are able to provide proof of legal status? I mean, once they contacted you they're not letting you go until you prove your status. Maybe a good one will drive you home and let you get your ID but even that is terrible intrusive.

Frankly, the only way to stop illegal immigration is to go after the employers. If someone can't find work they won't be here for long.

I'm totally fine having to prove my identity when I apply for a job. I've always had to do that anyway. I'm not fine with having to prove my identity when I'm walking down the street.

You won't see that because the corporations and farmers want no part in that...

[ndpruitt03]

So you're fine with going out for a jog, being stopped at a citizens checkpoint, being hauled off to the police station until you are able to provide proof of legal status? I mean, once they contacted you they're not letting you go until you prove your status. Maybe a good one will drive you home and let you get your ID but even that is terrible intrusive.

Frankly, the only way to stop illegal immigration is to go after the employers. If someone can't find work they won't be here for long.

I'm totally fine having to prove my identity when I apply for a job. I've always had to do that anyway. I'm not fine with having to prove my identity when I'm walking down the street.

You won't see that because the corporations and farmers want no part in that...
I doubt you'll see cops just taking out people out for a jog. This will be done when people are caught in some sort of accident where the police are involved. If there' a domestic dispute or a traffic accident

[yermom]

maybe not white people...

the language sure sounds like suspicion of being illegal is enough to stop someone


police officers have the authority to ask to see the information from any individual that is deemed “suspicious” or when there is “reasonable suspicion” that the person may not be legally in the country.

[TUSooner]

I may be misinformed, but my impression is that local cops already have the authority to discover through ordinary lawful means (e.g, without violating the 5th Amend. right against self-incrimination) whether a person is in the US illegally. They can always drop a dime of the ICE, at least in theory. My impression of the AZ law is that it imposes an affirmative duty on them to do so, even to the point of exposing them to a civil action if they fail to fulfill this duty. Please advise if my understanding is erroneous.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

If their culture was so fantastic then why did they leave it? I get a kick out of Mexican immigrants or even ethnically Mexican American citizens waving Mexican flags. Get a clue. If Mexico was so damned great that you wave its flag in our streets then why don't you hop on the back of a f'ing burro and head back down there? It disgusts me.


BFD.

I live in California and occasionally wear an Oklahoma t-shirt on game day.

Sic em speak: "if oklahoma is so damned great why don't you hop on a f'ing wagon train and go back? it disgusts me"

I'm in California because that is where my good job is, and I like the place. That doesn't mean I don't have emotional ties to OU. Why else would i put up with so many neanderthals, posses, etc on this site?

[SicEmBaylor]

BFD.

I live in California and occasionally wear an Oklahoma t-shirt on game day.

Sic em speak: "if oklahoma is so damned great why don't you hop on a f'ing wagon train and go back? it disgusts me"

I'm in California because that is where my good job is, and I like the place. That doesn't mean I don't have emotional ties to OU. Why else would i put up with so many neanderthals, posses, etc on this site?

I find it highly amusing you tout the sovereignty of an individual state to the extent that you compare moving across state lines to moving across national borders. Yet, I highly doubt you carry those sentiments over and defend the right of those individual states to form a union of their choosing.

In any case, moving across state lines is clearly different than illegally crossing national borders. Also, why is no mention ever made that the Mexican government has downright draconian laws against illegal immigration into their country? Every Mexican President who has stood at the lectern and decried United States policy against illegal immigrations is a hypocritical ******* considering Mexico's own immigration laws.

It's like everything else that's racial..expecting the same standard to be applied to minorities is racism and comparisons to Nazis are made.

[SicEmBaylor]

Talk about your ivory tower intellectuals with no grasp of reality - you set the new benchmark standard. Do you know any real people? Have you ever met an immigrant, legal or not?
Uh, I lived in Waco for a decade. Is this a serious question? To answer, yes I've known plenty of Mexicans both legal and otherwise. In fact, I play paintball with several Mexicans whom I would guess are likely here illegally. They're great guys -- some of the nicest you'll meet. But national immigration policy shouldn't be based on a few nice guys you meet.


How can a do-nothing like you, whose own posts suggest you have accomplished exactly nothing in your aimless life, call anyone a "parasite"?That's how Nazis talked about the Untermenschen. Your loathsome bigotry and ignorance are more dangerous to "our Western European/Anglo-Saxon heritage" than all the mythical hordes of illegal lettuce-pickers and hotel maids you despise. You're just awful.

Wow, you sure as hell have made a lot of assumptions about me and what I think about immigrants. I dare say your ignorant assumptions are on par with any ignorant assumptions you think I have about immigrants. Needless to say, I don't hate immigrants at all. I don't hate Mexicans. Racism is a supremely ignorant and evil emotion to have. I don't have anyone because of their skin color. Every culture and society is different and recognizing those differences is not racism. Some of those differences are good and some are bad, but liberal ideology would have you believe that unless you think everything within a culture is good and everyone is great then you're a bigot. Believing that millions of 3rd world immigrants entering our nation and society may be a bad thing is labeled as racist. Tell me exactly how I hate someone simply because I don't think it's a good idea for millions of them to enter the country?

I do have Mexican friends, but I don't want them and a dozen of their friends walking into my house one day without permission and deciding to live there permanently. It's the EXACT same thing on the national level. How does not wanting them living in my house without permission make me a racist? It doesn't. It simply makes me protective of my home and way of life.

Also, the Nazi analogy is way the **** uncalled for and beneath you. Unless you honestly think that opposing immigration means that I want to round up every minority and throw them into the oven then you owe me an apology.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I find it highly amusing you tout the sovereignty of an individual state to the extent that you compare moving across state lines to moving across national borders.
.

That's not what I did. My analogy was with respect to emotional ties to where one grows up.

and the irony is you are forever flying the confederate flag - at least figuratively speaking - as a U.S. citizen.

YOUR SIDE LOST. GET OVER IT. YOUR CONFEDERATE CITIZENSHIP WAS CANCELLED. TRY TO ASSIMILATE INTO THE U.S. CULTURE.

ALL 8 OF MY GREATGRANDPARENTS WERE FROM THE CONFEDERATE STATES AND I WAS ABLE TO ASSIMILATE. SO CAN YOU.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

We need to rezone those who want to work. Rezone them legal.

You can do that, just not with amnesty. I would favor a legal means to work temporarily in the U.S., but no permanent residency or citizenship. However, work visas can be problematic, just ask Germany about the Turks.

[TopDawg]

but liberal ideology would have you believe that unless you think everything within a culture is good and everyone is great then you're a bigot.

SicEm, you'd do well to stop trying to characterize liberal ideology. Unless, of course, you're willing to accept the statement that conservative ideology would have you believe that anything within a culture that is different from your culture is inherently evil.

I'm still waiting for an answer from some of you all about what our culture as America is.

[delhalew]

SicEm, you'd do well to stop trying to characterize liberal ideology. Unless, of course, you're willing to accept the statement that conservative ideology would have you believe that anything within a culture that is different from your culture is inherently evil.

I'm still waiting for an answer from some of you all about what our culture as America is.

I'll play. I'm proud that American culture is the largest most successful melting pot on earth. Immigrants to this nation bring their culture with them. I like that.
Problems arise when go get immigrants that don't respect the history and culture of their new home. Breaking the law upon entry is not a good start. Our naturalization process serves a purpose. That of protecting our sovorienty.

[Turd_Ferguson]

I'll play. I'm proud that American culture is the largest most successful melting pot on earth. Immigrants to this nation bring their culture with them. I like that.
Problems arise when go get immigrants that don't respect the history and culture of their new home. Breaking the law upon entry is not a good start. Our naturalization process serves a purpose. That of protecting our sovorienty.zing.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Originally Posted by TopDawg
"SicEm, you'd do well to stop trying to characterize liberal ideology. Unless, of course, you're willing to accept the statement that conservative ideology would have you believe that anything within a culture that is different from your culture is inherently evil."

TD, there IS evil. Some things are just wrong. Moral equivalency doesn't always exist. A lot, most ideas within socialism are simply bad, because they are contrary to human nature.

[TopDawg]

I'll play. I'm proud that American culture is the largest most successful melting pot on earth. Immigrants to this nation bring their culture with them. I like that.
Problems arise when go get immigrants that don't respect the history and culture of their new home. Breaking the law upon entry is not a good start. Our naturalization process serves a purpose. That of protecting our sovorienty.

And I can get behind everything you said. I think that you and I would agree that immigration, in and of itself, is not a bad thing. And I agree with you that something should be done about illegal immigration. I just don't share the same fears that others in this thread share (and you may not be one of them) that immigrants are destroying the American culture.

[TopDawg]

Originally Posted by TopDawg
"SicEm, you'd do well to stop trying to characterize liberal ideology. Unless, of course, you're willing to accept the statement that conservative ideology would have you believe that anything within a culture that is different from your culture is inherently evil."

TD, there IS evil. Some things are just wrong. Moral equivalency doesn't always exist. A lot, most ideas within socialism are simply bad, because they are contrary to human nature.

Yes, there IS evil in other cultures. And evil within our own culture. And a lot of ideas within capitalism are bad because they exploit human nature.

Now if you're unwilling to accept that there is good in other cultures and/or any evil in our own culture, I can understand why you wouldn't agree with the point I was trying to make to SicEm...which was really more about broad generalizations about liberal and conservative ideology than about good and evil within different cultures.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Sorry TD, I don't normally read your posts. The one I referenced was because someone quoted it.

[SicEmBaylor]

Yes, there IS evil in other cultures. And evil within our own culture. And a lot of ideas within capitalism are bad because they exploit human nature.

Now if you're unwilling to accept that there is good in other cultures and/or any evil in our own culture, I can understand why you wouldn't agree with the point I was trying to make to SicEm...which was really more about broad generalizations about liberal and conservative ideology than about good and evil within different cultures.

How many conservatives have you heard call Mexicans, evil? How many conservatives have you heard call any culture evil aside from radical islam?

Now, how many liberals have you heard accuse conservatives of being evil, racist, bigoted, ignorant, etc. when issues like this come up and someone has the audacity to suggest that culture differences exist and some of those differences are less than positive and not wholly compatible with our own culture?

You act as if it's a 1-1 ratio of liberals and conservatives making ignorant assumptions but that's far from reality.

[Skysooner]

And I can get behind everything you said. I think that you and I would agree that immigration, in and of itself, is not a bad thing. And I agree with you that something should be done about illegal immigration. I just don't share the same fears that others in this thread share (and you may not be one of them) that immigrants are destroying the American culture.

Agreed, nicely put.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

How many conservatives have you heard call Mexicans, evil? How many conservatives have you heard call any culture evil aside from radical islam?

Now, how many liberals have you heard accuse conservatives of being evil, racist, bigoted, ignorant, etc. when issues like this come up and someone has the audacity to suggest that culture differences exist and some of those differences are less than positive and not wholly compatible with our own culture?

You act as if it's a 1-1 ratio of liberals and conservatives making ignorant assumptions but that's far from reality.A rating! One of your top 5 posts.

[TopDawg]

You act as if it's a 1-1 ratio of liberals and conservatives making ignorant assumptions but that's far from reality.

You act as though this:


Now, how many liberals have you heard accuse conservatives of being evil, racist, bigoted, ignorant, etc. when issues like this come up and someone has the audacity to suggest that culture differences exist and some of those differences are less than positive and not wholly compatible with our own culture?

is the same as this:


but liberal ideology would have you believe that unless you think everything within a culture is good and everyone is great then you're a bigot.

And that's far from reality.

If you want to talk about what's a 1-to-1 ratio, then I bet for every liberal that has accused a conservative of being evil, racist, bigoted, ignorant, etc. when issues like this come up and the conservative had the audacity to suggest that culture differences exist and some of those differences are less than positive and not wholly compatible with our own culture...

you can find a conservative that has accused a liberal of being soft, unpatriotic, having white guilt, etc. when issues like this come up and the liberal had the audacity to suggest that cultural differences exist and some of those differences are positive and compatible with (even *gasp* enhance) our own culture.

[MR2-Sooner86]

I just don't share the same fears that others in this thread share (and you may not be one of them) that illegal immigrants are destroying the American culture.

I just really don't want to live in Oklahexico in 20 years because people in this country bent over and took it up the *** for immigrants who came here illegally yet caved to their demands of "make my life easier for me, not for you!"

[delhalew]

I just really don't want to live in Oklahexico in 20 years because people in this country bent over and took it up the *** for immigrants who came here illegally yet caved to their demands of "make my life easier for me, not for you!"

Thumbs up. Thanks for making the only fix I would have needed in Dawg's post.

[SicEmBaylor]

I really like Mexican food and margaritas.

[delhalew]

I really like Mexican food and margaritas.

Now that's culture!:D I'm also fond of their devotion to family and Mariachi bands.

[SicEmBaylor]

Now that's culture!:D I'm also fond of their devotion to family and Mariachi bands.

Their devotion to family is admirable, but the Mariachi music is simply horrible. In fact, it's reason enough to keep them out of the country.

Look man, I lived in Waco. Actually, not just in Waco but Bellmead. I think every house within a 10 mile radius was Mexican. Let me tell ya, that f'in carnie music gets old FAST. They play it constantly and the **** sounds the same no matter what song is playing. In Waco, they have like 3 mariachi station and I honestly can't tell any of them or the songs apart.

It's awful just awful. Now, listening to it once and awhile at a good authentic Mexican restaurant is one thing but hearing that **** morning, noon, and night is another matter entirely.

[delhalew]

That crap is the reason I have Sirius in my truck. It's on the radio everywhere in this country.

[XingTheRubicon]

I know a way to solve all of this.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

You can do that, just not with amnesty. I would favor a legal means to work temporarily in the U.S., but no permanent residency or citizenship. However, work visas can be problematic, just ask Germany about the Turks.

It would make sense to me to issue 3 year work visas, renewable, and at some point qualifies you for a permanent resident visa.... Similar to an H1B visa holder who gets a tenure-track assistant professorship with a university. After 6 years and with a successful record, they are promoted and tenured - thus the H1B is no longer an appropriate visa since it is supposed to be temporary. So he/she applies for permanent residency, often with the sponsorship of the university.

So, say Maria has a clean record for 9 years under work visas, she becomes eligible to apply for permanent residency. Ordinarily, one has to be a permanent resident for 5 years before becoming eligible to apply for citizenship.

But ask any immigration attorney what's the quickest way for the ordinary Jose or Maria to get here legally and they'll tell you it's by marrying a U.S. citizen. With clean records it usually takes just a couple of years.

I often see posted comments along the lines of "go back to your country and apply to come legally. Do it the right way." If you are an ordinary working stiff you likely don't qualify for any category.

Even with a family-based petition, with a parent or sibling who is a U.S. citizen, you are likely to wait twenty or more years.

Ironically, one other legal way, that only takes a couple of years, is to be the parent of an adult U.S. citizen. So you legally come over, but likely to be past your prime working years.

The value of their labor that helps the U.S. create wealth is the great benefit of immigration, yet our immigration laws don't match that reality.

[delhalew]

It would make sense to me to issue 3 year work visas, renewable, and at some point qualifies you for a permanent resident visa.... Similar to an H1B visa holder who gets a tenure-track assistant professorship with a university. After 6 years and with a successful record, they are promoted and tenured - thus the H1B is no longer an appropriate visa since it is supposed to be temporary. So he/she applies for permanent residency, often with the sponsorship of the university.

So, say Maria has a clean record for 9 years under work visas, she becomes eligible to apply for permanent residency. Ordinarily, one has to be a permanent resident for 5 years before becoming eligible to apply for citizenship.

But ask any immigration attorney what's the quickest way for the ordinary Jose or Maria to get here legally and they'll tell you it's by marrying a U.S. citizen. With clean records it usually takes just a couple of years.

I often see posted comments along the lines of "go back to your country and apply to come legally. Do it the right way." If you are an ordinary working stiff you likely don't qualify for any category.

Even with a family-based petition, with a parent or sibling who is a U.S. citizen, you are likely to wait twenty or more years.

Ironically, one other legal way, that only takes a couple of years, is to be the parent of an adult U.S. citizen. So you legally come over, but likely to be past your prime working years.

The value of their labor that helps the U.S. create wealth is the great benefit of immigration, yet our immigration laws don't match that reality.

Another irony is that if it weren't for the invasion by illegal hispanics, it would be easier for those who do it legally. I'm open to streamlining the process.
Amnesty is a slap in the face to all my friends of every nationality imaginable who have gone through the costly, time consuming process.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Agreed, nicely put.

Agree mostly as well. It is about rule of law and law breakers trying to get a free deal. Others stand in line, pay for lawyers and do the things required to be a citizen. U.S. Citizenship is the most coveted thing around, it should remain that way. We should not reward law breaking, cheating, jumping line and not completing the citizenship requirements.

You come here for the ideal, great - do your duty.

[TUSooner]

You know, I hear it repeated often and all over the place that illegal aliens are getting a "free ride" in various uspecified ways. (E.g., "They get all this welfare and stuff and they don't work.") Because this seems to be a primary (knee-jerk) reason touted for cracking down on immigrants, I think it ought to be supported with something more than bald assertions and an occasional out-lying anecdote before it it is accepted as gospel and used as an excuse for public policy of dubious effect and constitutionality. Where exactly is the hard evidence of this freeloading? Some items I found that are supported with any degree of empirical data suggest that the freeloader myth is not the reality.

http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/immigration/2006/05/myths_v_facts_o.html

http://www.urban.org/publications/900898.html

http://cmd.princeton.edu/files/POM_june2007.pdf

By contrast this site purports to offer data that appear irrelevant to the freeloader thesis:

http://www.illegalaliens.us/factsandmyths.htm

Of course, lots of folks 'round here won't let facts get in the way of a good argument! :)

[SanJoaquinSooner]

[QUOTE=TheHumanAlphabet;2873779]It is about rule of law and law breakers trying to get a free deal. QUOTE]

It is not about trying to get a free deal. The vast majority of Mexicans who come here to be working stiffs would much rather pay the U.S. gov't $3000 for a work visa than to pay that $3000 to a smuggler who in turn pays a bribe to the border guards to bring a truckload of them across. The lawbreaking aspect can be changed by changing the law, not unlike what Oklahoma did with Tattoo parlors and liquor-by-the-drink establishments.

I'm glad all the holier-than-thou posters here at Soonerfans.com never used a fake or borrowed ID to get liquor while being underaged. Using a false ID to get drunk vs. using a false ID to work. Who would have the high moral ground?

Conservatives used to admire someone who has the burning desire to work. Now instead of trying to create ways to legally accommodate them, they beat their chests and pi$$ on them.

[TopDawg]

I just really don't want to live in Oklahexico in 20 years because people in this country bent over and took it up the *** for immigrants who came here illegally yet caved to their demands of "make my life easier for me, not for you!"

The way some folks in here were writing things, they sounded to me as though they were anti-immigration...legal or not. I wasn't trying to characterize everyone on one side of the issue, just asking a question of those that seemed to be expressing that way of thinking.

Like TU, though, I doubt that many of the illegal immigrants are demanding much of anything. Most of them are probably trying to lay as low as they can working yeomen jobs so as to not attract attention to themselves so they can avoid deportation. That's not to say that that should make their presence here okay, just to say that I don't think the last part of your post is an accurate portrayal of what's going on.

[TUSooner]

The way some folks in here were writing things, they sounded to me as though they were anti-immigration...legal or not. I wasn't trying to characterize everyone on one side of the issue, just asking a question of those that seemed to be expressing that way of thinking.

Like TU, though, I doubt that many of the illegal immigrants are demanding much of anything. Most of them are probably trying to lay as low as they can working yeomen jobs so as to not attract attention to themselves so they can avoid deportation. That's not to say that that should make their presence here okay, just to say that I don't think the last part of your post is an accurate portrayal of what's going on.

I'd have said that, but not as well or as concisely.

[delhalew]

[QUOTE=TheHumanAlphabet;2873779]It is about rule of law and law breakers trying to get a free deal. QUOTE]

It is not about trying to get a free deal. The vast majority of Mexicans who come here to be working stiffs would much rather pay the U.S. gov't $3000 for a work visa than to pay that $3000 to a smuggler who in turn pays a bribe to the border guards to bring a truckload of them across. The lawbreaking aspect can be changed by changing the law, not unlike what Oklahoma did with Tattoo parlors and liquor-by-the-drink establishments.

I'm glad all the holier-than-thou posters here at Soonerfans.com never used a fake or borrowed ID to get liquor while being underaged. Using a false ID to get drunk vs. using a false ID to work. Who would have the high moral ground?

Conservatives used to admire someone who has the burning desire to work. Now instead of trying to create ways to legally accommodate them, they beat their chests and pi$$ on them.

Sweet baby Jesus, you are dense. ILLEGAL!!!!

[TheHumanAlphabet]

[quote=TheHumanAlphabet;2873779]It is about rule of law and law breakers trying to get a free deal. QUOTE]

It is not about trying to get a free deal. The vast majority of Mexicans who come here to be working stiffs would much rather pay the U.S. gov't $3000 for a work visa than to pay that $3000 to a smuggler who in turn pays a bribe to the border guards to bring a truckload of them across. The lawbreaking aspect can be changed by changing the law, not unlike what Oklahoma did with Tattoo parlors and liquor-by-the-drink establishments.

I'm glad all the holier-than-thou posters here at Soonerfans.com never used a fake or borrowed ID to get liquor while being underaged. Using a false ID to get drunk vs. using a false ID to work. Who would have the high moral ground?

Conservatives used to admire someone who has the burning desire to work. Now instead of trying to create ways to legally accommodate them, they beat their chests and pi$$ on them.

By Free Deal, I meant on the immigration process, not the dole. Some of the hardest working people I see are what I would suspect are "illegal". Harder working than many in the U.S. and getting "the dole". Just to clarify my comment - it may have been confusing. I am sticking to the laws we have and the process. Because otherwise it could be seen as racist and that is not what I mean. A "nation of immigrants" doesn't necessarily mean a "nation of illegally crossing people and circumventing the law and then becoming immigrants". IMO

People use the term immigrant way too loosely. A person crossing the border illegally or overstaying their visa or whatever, is not an immigrant. They are illegal aliens. An immigrant is a person coming to the U.S. with the intention of living, working and becoming a citizen and forsaking your country of birth. That is an immigrant in my opinion.

And that is what has made this country greater than any other country on the globe. A group of people working hard to make the best for themselves and in turn, bettering the country in oh so many ways.

I think the left and the socialists have turned this discussion into racism and phobia in order to silence the majority of people who want the process we have followed and not rewarding people who jump in line and want special treatment. I still don't get it. Would you let someone squat in your house just because the door was open? Same deal here. Most if not all would say no.

[TUSooner]

Sweet baby Jesus, you are dense. ILLEGAL!!!!



In the mid-90s when the internet boom hit, my neighbor across the street started a home business where customers ordered stuff over the internet and he shipped out of his home.

It turned out he was in violation of the zoning laws, as his house was zoned residential and not commercial.

So he went to the planning commission and submitted a request for a rezoning, so he could continue his home business. He paid a fee and the commission approved it. Some might mischaracterize it as giving him amnesty.

The two main reasons migrants come are (1) to work or (2) to be with loved ones. Neither of those is inherently evil like rape or murder or theft.

We need to rezone those who want to work. Rezone them legal.

I'm still waiing for a non-circular answer as to what is the substantive difference between the harm caused by a hard-working illegal alien and a hard-worinkg legal one. I'll spot you the "respect for the law" point; that's why we deport illegal aliens in large quantities each da, and I AM a lawyer, after all. But what else have you got? Or is that enough? The whole idea that there is a discreet block of illegals and a discreet block of legals is inaccurate, because a great many famnles are a mix of legal and illegal. Plus, just about all of the feared evils i I've seen expressed concerning illegal aliens would apply just as well to legal ones... perhaps even moreso, since legal aliens would seem less hesitant to seek social services, having no fear of discovery and deportation.

I'm sorry to think ill of folks, but 've seen so much rant and cant in this thread that I am more and more convinced that "illegal" is being used as a smoke screen for people who really just don't want any aliens or immigrants of any kind. But never mind what I think, can you justify the distinction in your own mind?

[homerSimpsonsBrain]

Those huddled masses that flocked to Ellis Island were a very different breed than what we're dealing with today. Back then, immigrant communities made a concerted effort to adapt, change, and fit in with larger US society. Sure they kept some of their old-ways at home, but in general they assimilated.

....


The idea that this wave of immigration is somehow radically different is for the most part bogus (other than the illegal aspect). The more things change, well...

The Irish
http://www.victoriana.com/Irish/IrishPoliticalCartoons.htm

The Chinese.
http://sun.menloschool.org/~mbrody/ushistory/angel/exclusion_act/

The first generation of immigrant families never fully integrate. By the third or fourth generation, they are just as depraved as the rest of us.


My family is predominantly Anglo-Saxon.

I never would have guessed. ;)

[delhalew]

Sweet baby Jesus, you are dense. ILLEGAL!!!!




I'm still waiing for a non-circular answer as to what is the substantive difference between the harm caused by a hard-working illegal alien and a hard-worinkg legal one. I'll spot you the "respect for the law" point; that's why we deport illegal aliens in large quantities each da, and I AM a lawyer, after all. But what else have you got? Or is that enough? The whole idea that there is a discreet block of illegals and a discreet block of legals is inaccurate, because a great many famnles are a mix of legal and illegal. Plus, just about all of the feared evils i I've seen expressed concerning illegal aliens would apply just as well to legal ones... perhaps even moreso, since legal aliens would seem less hesitant to seek social services, having no fear of discovery and deportation.

I'm sorry to think ill of folks, but 've seen so much rant and cant in this thread that I am more and more convinced that "illegal" is being used as a smoke screen for people who really just don't want any aliens or immigrants of any kind. But never mind what I think, can you justify the distinction in your own mind?

I am not surprised that you think there is some racially charged agenda held anyone who oppsoses illegal immigration.
Trust me, it's not lost on me that you are a lawyer. It drips off of your every word.
I would think that your being a lawyer would mean it wouldn't be necessary to repapeat myself. How many times do I need to defend legal immigration? I have a dozen friends both nationalized and in the process. Mexican, Nigerian, Isreali, English, Australian, and Cuban. Almost forgot Ukranian. They all have one thing in common. They are after more than employment. They want to be apart of the one nation that has always been a beacon in world of socialized soup. This becomes less true every decade, but heretofor, we are IT.
It is a disgrace to these fine people to allow folks of lesser character a backdoor.
This is not complicated.

[TUSooner]

Those huddled masses that flocked to Ellis Island were a very different breed than what we're dealing with today. Back then, immigrant communities made a concerted effort to adapt, change, and fit in with larger US society. Sure they kept some of their old-ways at home, but in general they assimilated.
....
Homer's response is right.

Here's my little story; make of it what you will.

My mom was born in Bessie, OK in 1933. That town, founded in 1903, was a German village; maybe 95% of the folk were Germans, and they spoke German. (Same with some of the other tiny towns out west there.) Even in the 1960s the Lutheran church in Bessie conducted German services for the older folks. My grandparents never learned English all that well. They never made any money, either. My grandfather got spat on in Clinton & Cordell for being a German. In OKC in the late 1950s or early 1960s, my other Grandpa had to to step in to keep him from getting attacked for being German. This was at a bait shop by Lake Overholser near "the big city." Nobody cared whether he was legal or not. The abuse came from righteous God-fearing Okies.

How soon we forget what its really liike to be an immigrant, and how unfortunate it is when we romanticize one era in order to employ our prejudices in the present day. Anti-immigrant bigotry arises in every generation, and this one is no different and no better than the generations that spit on my Grandfafther. The fact that now we can excuse outrselves by branding some of them "illegal" doesn't purify our hatred or make it any better or different.

And SicEm, I analogized your thoughts and language to the Nazis'. You know what an analogy is, I presume. If I wanted to call you a Nazi I would not analogize, I would say "You are nothingh but a ****ing Nazi." I don't believe you are a real Nazi, but the only reason you are not a real Nazi is that you don't have the cojones for it. But I would not be surprised to see you be a real Nazi (or the 21st Century America counterpart) when you grow up. As soon as the next Mein Kampf comes out, you may be hawking it on the street corners. And keep this in mind: The Nazis did not start with the gas and the ovens; that's where they ended.

[TUSooner]

I am not surprised that you think there is some racially charged agenda held anyone who oppsoses illegal immigration.
Trust me, it's not lost on me that you are a lawyer. It drips off of your every word.
I would think that your being a lawyer would mean it wouldn't be necessary to repapeat myself. How many times do I need to defend legal immigration? I have a dozen friends both nationalized and in the process. Mexican, Nigerian, Isreali, English, Australian, and Cuban. Almost forgot Ukranian. They all have one thing in common. They are after more than employment. They want to be apart of the one nation that has always been a beacon in world of socialized soup. This becomes less true every decade, but heretofor, we are IT.
It is a disgrace to these fine people to allow folks of lesser character a backdoor.
This is not complicated.

You slipped up with that "lesser character" remark, unless you can link status to character. Look, in the illegal reentry cases I see, many of the guys are really bad scum. I am happier than you are that they are illegal, because that gives a legal basis for locking these losers up and then deporting them. But being illegal does not make them scum; scum makes them scum,. And being scum is not why they are illegal. I caution against using "illegal" as a proxy for baser factors. I don't give our fellow fallen man too much credit for fine distinctions.
EDIT: I have to note that I agree that ideals higher than money are laudable in immigrants. I just think they're laudable in illegal aliens too. ;)

[delhalew]

Well, I never said scum. I do believe that anyone with the fortitude to survive the process of naturalization is of a higher character than someone who disregards the laws od their "new country" with their first action.
I am also concerned the human rights abuses that occur in these illegal entries. A total clamp down of the border WOULD help alleviate this.

[yermom]

amnesty doesn't involve instant citizenship, does it?

[TUSooner]

Well, I never said scum. I do believe that anyone with the fortitude to survive the process of naturalization is of a higher character than someone who disregards the laws of their "new country" with their first action.
I am also concerned the human rights abuses that occur in these illegal entries. A total clamp down of the border WOULD help alleviate this.

I said scum, but it had no intended connection to anything you said. It just fit. Congratulations on being the only person so far willing to tackle the practical difference between legal and illegal. Maybe the "respect for the law" angle is a significant distinction, although I sorta gave it up. How significant, I dunno, but it's something. All the many immigrants among my family and friends did, in fact, go about it legally. Even the one who overstayed his visa - and was illegal for a year or 3 -- left the country and came back the right way. He's now a citizen (but I would consider trading him for an illegal Guatemalan hotel maid.)

[delhalew]

amnesty doesn't involve instant citizenship, does it?

When Reagan allowed it, that was not far from the truth.
In the era of Obama, I would bet it would consist of a fine that you would be exempt from if you can't afford it.
Dooshbaggery.

[delhalew]

I said scum, but it had no intended connection to anything you said. It just fit. Congratulations on being the only person so far willing to tackle the practical difference between legal and illegal. Maybe the "respect for the law" angle is a significant distinction, although I sorta gave it up. How significant, I dunno, but it's something. All the many immigrants among my family and friends did, in fact, go about it legally. Even the one who overstayed his visa - and was illegal for a year or 3 -- left the country and came back the right way. He's now a citizen (but I would consider trading him for an illegal Guatemalan hotel maid.)

This is part of my point. Look at how forgiving we are. If you overstay your visa and dodge ICE for a couple of years, you are not disqualified. You still get to play by the rules and get it done.
There are not many nations on this earth that facilitate immigration the way we do.
The widespread abuse and climate of the world leads me to believe that it's time to be more selective.
This disrespect is really beginning to anger me.

[TUSooner]

This is part of my point. Look at how forgiving we are. If you overstay your visa and dodge ICE for a couple of years, you are not disqualified. You still get to play by the rules and get it done.
There are not many nations on this earth that facilitate immigration the way we do.
The widespread abuse and climate of the world leads me to believe that it's time to be more selective.
This disrespect is really beginning to anger me.

Well hold on now, I would not even bet my pocket change on the accuracy of your statement that I boldfaced. The ICE (technically the Atty General) is not so forgiving after 9/11. Immigration law is very very complicated. (Did I say VERY VERY VERY complicated?) Even minor technical defaults can doom the best-intentioned immigration efforts. And there's little judicial review of most AG decisions. In fact, Congress stripped all judicial review of all "discretionary" decisions by the AG. Bad immigration lawyers abound, good ones are expensive, and aliens can seldom afford the good ones. (BTW-I was not yet a lawyer, and my wife handled this crap for her family. Nobody has yet shown her the appreciation she deserves for all the work she did.)

My relative was pre-9/11 and happened to get a sympatheic INS officer. If he had stayed long enough to be "removed" (a very bad thing, usually), or if he had gotten an ***hole INS person, it would have been a whole 'nother story!

I also have to say, that your post shows again how difficult it is to maintain a workable line between legal and illegal when it comes to the political and social (and even religious) side of the debate -- as opposed to the purely legal side.

[delhalew]

My australian friend...you know how Aussies are;) dodged immigration got departed and hung out in Canada for a few years before being allowed back. This was post 911.
That said, anicdotal evidence is useless so...what do I know.

[TUSooner]

My australian friend...you know how Aussies are;) dodged immigration got departed and hung out in Canada for a few years before being allowed back. This was post 911.
That said, anicdotal evidence is useless so...what do I know.

Sounds pretty lucky. One of the truest things a lawyer can say is ""it depends...." :D

[Okla-homey]

I remember my grandfather, born in 1907 and an "Okie" in the most literal sense of the name, overhearing Californians referring to him and my saintly grandmother in 1937as "Okie trash who should be locked-up or run out the state."

Sure enough, they left on their own once WWII started, which began to recover our economy.

But that stuff sticks. In my craw. Not a nickel's worth of difference between the way my beloved grandparents were treated and regarded in CA in the Thirties and the way folks are treating the mex's nowadays. That's also why I say, p1ss on California and Californians. Always have.

That's just my take and my opinion. But there it is.

And we got the last laugh though. I'm living in a house in Oklahoma that would cost a couple million dollars in California. And its unlikely to be destroyed in an earthquake. Which is inevitable in CA. As in "The Big One." Not "if," but "when." I say, Bring It. Because Karma is a beyotch.

[MR2-Sooner86]

I doubt that many of the illegal immigrants are demanding much of anything. Most of them are probably trying to lay as low as they can working yeomen jobs so as to not attract attention to themselves so they can avoid deportation. That's not to say that that should make their presence here okay, just to say that I don't think the last part of your post is an accurate portrayal of what's going on.

Yeah they lay low and don't demand much and don't want attention drawn to themselves...

http://frontpage.americandaughter.com/wp-images/montebello-hs-protest.jpg
http://www.rightwingnews.com/graphics/dallas004.jpg
http://gothamist.com/attachments/Jen%20Chung/2006_05_daywithoutimmigrant.jpg
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/Hispanic_protest3.jpg
http://216.92.17.61/racewire/archival_images/rally%20rally.jpg
http://www.stopthenorthamericanunion.com/DotsImages/MexicanFlagOverUpsideDownAmericanFlag.jpg
http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/1632/immigmar28f9ze.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/bdaz01/saveournation/dscn0820.jpg
http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/democrat-protest-literature.jpg

I think we all remember those little ****ers running around in 2006 during that amnesty bill.

Now here's the funny thing. They come over here illegally and do what they want to our flag, make the signs they want, and get to protest because we have that right in American. Now, why in the hell won't they get their asses across the border and do the same thing in Mexico to try to make their life better? Oh yeah, the Mexican government cracks down on that.

Also, if you want to become a citizen of a country, it's not a good idea to fly the flag of your home country around because it seems to mess up the message. Maybe that's just me using that thing called a brain and thinking logically but I thought I'd throw it out there.

If this is too complex for most people a nice political cartoon should help.
http://stoptheinvasionoforegon.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/demanding8dy.jpg

[SicEmBaylor]

Listen, this nonsense that earlier immigrants were no different than modern illegals at assimilation is bull****. Clearly, nobody expects 1st generation immigrant adults to fully integrate into any society. It's impossible. But, I stand by the fact that those immigrants made more of a concerted effort and stressed to their children the importance to a greater degree than current immigrants.

I've spent the better part of a decade living in Waco surrounded by immigrants, and the kids not only make little effort to assimilate but are taught at home to hang on to their Mexican heritage and pride to such a degree that they're commonly down right insulting to this nation.

I have a couple of friends who are teachers in inner-city Texas schools (one in San Antonio and the other in Waco), and the stories they tell me about some of their immigrant students absolutely blows my mind. They're both middle school teachers and these kids routinely threaten them with violence, many don't speak hardly a word of English so other students have to translate for them, they're disobedient, and when American National holidays come around they are insulting.

My guess is if a German immigrant in, say the 1920s, had some kids in school and they found out they threatened their teacher with violence and were insulting toward the United States then those immigrant parents would beat the **** out of their kids and straighten them up.

What's happening is that we're allowing for the creation of a Mexican separatist movement that could lead to the Balkanization of the United States.

[royalfan5]

Listen, this nonsense that earlier immigrants were no different than modern illegals at assimilation is bull****. Clearly, nobody expects 1st generation immigrant adults to fully integrate into any society. It's impossible. But, I stand by the fact that those immigrants made more of a concerted effort and stressed to their children the importance to a greater degree than current immigrants.

I've spent the better part of a decade living in Waco surrounded by immigrants, and the kids not only make little effort to assimilate but are taught at home to hang on to their Mexican heritage and pride to such a degree that they're commonly down right insulting to this nation.

I have a couple of friends who are teachers in inner-city Texas schools (one in San Antonio and the other in Waco), and the stories they tell me about some of their immigrant students absolutely blows my mind. They're both middle school teachers and these kids routinely threaten them with violence, many don't speak hardly a word of English so other students have to translate for them, they're disobedient, and when American National holidays come around they are insulting.

My guess is if a German immigrant in, say the 1920s, had some kids in school and they found out they threatened their teacher with violence and were insulting toward the United States then those immigrant parents would beat the **** out of their kids and straighten them up.

What's happening is that we're allowing for the creation of a Mexican separatist movement that could lead to the Balkanization of the United States.

A good chunk of German immigrants school children in the 1920's where attending parochial schools with the other German immigrants children. Same for the Czechs. There are towns in Nebraska that still have signage in Czech since a majority of the residents can still read it.

[Crucifax Autumn]

This whole argument is stupid. Illegals are illegal. That's simple. There are also a lot who have no choice but to do whatever they can to support their families. I know a lot of Mexicans who actually do assimilate and they are generally the ones who also try to come here legally, though not all of them.

The idiots in those pictures up there should get booted out of the US wheter they are legal or not. The ones who work hard, learn more English, learn our customs, etc. probably ought to be treated well and helped to citizenship since they are the ones who will become, or already are, productive members of society.

Like most issues we argue about here there's no real black and white, right-wrong answer. I think the immigrants who don't want to fit in and be productive should be loaded on a train with the farthest ultra left loonies and the farthest ultra right loonies and sent ANYWHERE but HERE.

[Crucifax Autumn]

A good chunk of German immigrants school children in the 1920's where attending parochial schools with the other German immigrants children. Same for the Czechs. There are towns in Nebraska that still have signage in Czech since a majority of the residents can still read it.

Yep...Where I spent middle school and high school in La Grange, texass there are still Germans and Czechs who I can't understand a word they say thanks to their strong accents and the way they slip into their native tongue even today. And this is multi-generational too. Some guys that were my age in school couldn't pronounce simple English correctly thanks to their parents and grandparents never bothering to learn English or at least learn to speak it more clearly.

[royalfan5]

Yep...Where I spent middle school and high school in La Grange, texass there are still Germans and Czechs who I can't understand a word they say thanks to their strong accents and the way they slip into their native tongue even today. And this is multi-generational too. Some guys that were my age in school couldn't pronounce simple English correctly thanks to their parents and grandparents never bothering to learn English or at least learn to speak it more clearly.

I have family that lives by Giddings/Manheim. My Uncle learned German as a native tongue and spoke with his father until his father passed away earlier this year.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Yep...Where I spent middle school and high school in La Grange, texass there are still Germans and Czechs who I can't understand a word they say thanks to their strong accents and the way they slip into their native tongue even today. And this is multi-generational too. Some guys that were my age in school couldn't pronounce simple English correctly thanks to their parents and grandparents never bothering to learn English or at least learn to speak it more clearly.Schto ehto Babooshka:confused:

[Crucifax Autumn]

I have family that lives by Giddings/Manheim. My Uncle learned German as a native tongue and spoke with his father until his father passed away earlier this year.

And I have no problem with that, nor do I have a problem with Mexicans knowing how to speak Spanish and English. It's only when ANY of them can't speak English well enough to get by that annoys me.

Here's what bothers me about recent immigrants from Europe, Asia, and of course Mexico: When I go visit Mexico EVERY SINGLE PERSON I SEE speaks English and usually better than immigrants in the US. German kids learn English in school. Mexican kids learn English in school. Most Asian kids learn English in school. So WHY IN THE F*CK do they all foret how to speak it the minute they cross the river or step off the plane?????

THAT is the part that drives me apesh*t.

[Leroy Lizard]

I remember my grandfather, born in 1907 and an "Okie" in the most literal sense of the name, overhearing Californians referring to him and my saintly grandmother in 1937as "Okie trash who should be locked-up or run out the state."

Sure enough, they left on their own once WWII started, which began to recover our economy.

But that stuff sticks. In my craw. Not a nickel's worth of difference between the way my beloved grandparents were treated and regarded in CA in the Thirties and the way folks are treating the mex's nowadays. That's also why I say, p1ss on California and Californians. Always have.

Okies entered California legally. And they were also fellow Americans.

You can't see the difference between an Okie and an illegal alien?

[Crucifax Autumn]

Well, generally speaking, both use bad grammar frequently.

[delhalew]

My Dad will go ape**** if someone calls him an Okie. Poor bastards usually don't even know what Okie means. "My family never ran off to California!" That's my Dad screaming at whoever. Lmao. This is the same guy who would tell me to wish in one hand and **** in the other and see which one filled up quicker.

[Flagstaffsooner]

A Pinal Co, deputy was just shot by illegals with and AK-47.

KAM

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/30/arizona.deputy.shot/?hpt=T1

[SoonerInKCMO]

A good chunk of German immigrants school children in the 1920's where attending parochial schools with the other German immigrants children. Same for the Czechs. There are towns in Nebraska that still have signage in Czech since a majority of the residents can still read it.

Change that to Germans, Swedes and [Minnesota|North Dakota|South Dakota|Wisconsin] and it's still correct. People today way overestimate the rapidity in which European immigrants assimilated in the 19th and early 20th century.

[SicEmBaylor]

My family came to OK via a short stop in Texas to escape reconstruction. They've been there ever since.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgAZJ66_9bk&feature=related

[Flagstaffsooner]

Juan is showing his family home movies.

[SicEmBaylor]

You know what I've always wondered about those migrant pickers? When they're out there in the middle of the field where the hell do they go to the restroom at and do they wash their hands?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

You know what I've always wondered about those migrant pickers? When they're out there in the middle of the field where the hell do they go to the restroom at and do they wash their hands?cheap fertilizer

[SanJoaquinSooner]

You know what I've always wondered about those migrant pickers? When they're out there in the middle of the field where the hell do they go to the restroom at and do they wash their hands?

Probably the same way it was handled on those big southern plantations.

[Flagstaffsooner]

Probably the same way it was handled on those big southern plantations.
Cotton makes a good butt wipe idiot.;)

[TUSooner]

Regarding those picture in post 343: Yeah, those Mexiturds are tools de luxe. But it lacks probative value on any salient issue; you might as well post pictures of a Fred Phelps rally and say "Look how evil those white Christians are!"

I wouldn't mind having an MR2, though.

[Harry Beanbag]

I remember my grandfather, born in 1907 and an "Okie" in the most literal sense of the name, overhearing Californians referring to him and my saintly grandmother in 1937as "Okie trash who should be locked-up or run out the state."

Sure enough, they left on their own once WWII started, which began to recover our economy.

But that stuff sticks. In my craw. Not a nickel's worth of difference between the way my beloved grandparents were treated and regarded in CA in the Thirties and the way folks are treating the mex's nowadays. That's also why I say, p1ss on California and Californians. Always have.

That's just my take and my opinion. But there it is.

And we got the last laugh though. I'm living in a house in Oklahoma that would cost a couple million dollars in California. And its unlikely to be destroyed in an earthquake. Which is inevitable in CA. As in "The Big One." Not "if," but "when." I say, Bring It. Because Karma is a beyotch.

I've never said this to you before, you have no idea what you're talking about on this issue. Completely pie in the sky ignorant.

[Harry Beanbag]

Regarding those picture in post 343: Yeah, those Mexiturds are tools de luxe. But it lacks probative value on any salient issue; you might as well post pictures of a Fred Phelps rally and say "Look how evil those white Christians are!"


I'm pretty sure that's been done on this board.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Regarding those picture in post 343: Yeah, those Mexiturds are tools de luxe. But it lacks probative value on any salient issue; you might as well post pictures of a Fred Phelps rally and say "Look how evil those white Christians are!"

I think there's a slight difference between some jackass church with 20 members and thousands of protesters from different cities all over the place. All I had to do was type "2006 amnesty illegal immigrant protest" and I got pages and pages of stuff.


I wouldn't mind having an MR2, though.

I'm selling mine soon.

[Frozen Sooner]

Just throwing this out there:

The Arizona Legislature has apparently figured out that "legal contact" was probably too vague and put in language limiting legal contacts to simply arrests and traffic stops.

[yermom]

right on then

wear your seat belts beaners ;)

[Okla-homey]

right on then

wear your seat belts beaners ;)

and don't drive drunk either.

[Frozen Sooner]

They've also now amended the language to remove the word "solely" from "reasonable suspicion shall not be solely based on race" to make it clear that racial profiling is not OK under the bill.

[delhalew]

Is that going to calm some the fruit loops out there and in here? I say no and to hell with 'em.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Change that to Germans, Swedes and [Minnesota|North Dakota|South Dakota|Wisconsin] and it's still correct. People today way overestimate the rapidity in which European immigrants assimilated in the 19th and early 20th century.

WWI and WWII went a long way to hasten the assimulation. My mother tells of how her Grandfather after the break out of WWI banned German from being spoken in their home, prior to that, German was the language of choice. He didn't want to seem less American and call attention to themselves by not speaking English.

[Crucifax Autumn]

So we should go to war with Mexico?

[TheHumanAlphabet]

A Pinal Co, deputy was just shot by illegals with and AK-47.

KAM

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/30/arizona.deputy.shot/?hpt=T1

This will go over well. The Pinal county Sheriff was one of the biggest allies for the law. He has been on TV numerous times. Now illegal dope smugglers shoot a deputy with AK-47s trying to protect their bails of mary jane...Yep, just seeking a better life and do work "mericans won't do.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

So we should go to war with Mexico?

I am not far off thinking we should go in, take over a buffer zone and mine the hell out of it to push the cartels away from the border region.

[TUSooner]

This will go over well. The Pinal county Sheriff was one of the biggest allies for the law. He has been on TV numerous times. Now illegal dope smugglers shoot a deputy with AK-47s trying to protect their bails of mary jane...Yep, just seeking a better life and do work "mericans won't do.

Duly noted that all illegal Mexican immigrants are dope smugglers!

[Leroy Lizard]

I am not far off thinking we should go in, take over a buffer zone and mine the hell out of it to push the cartels away from the border region.

And rather than put up warning signs written in Spanish or English, just use a commonly observed shape. :D

[TUSooner]

I am not far off thinking we should go in, take over a buffer zone and mine the hell out of it to push the cartels away from the border region.

Just as long as we don't try anything extreme... like legalizing, taxing, and regulating marijuana. Let's keep it completely outside the law and in the capable hands of the cartels.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

So we should go to war with Mexico?

What will you do with all the pot confiscated, Crucifax?

[Crucifax Autumn]

Smoke it of course.

[Flagstaffsooner]

This will go over well. The Pinal county Sheriff was one of the biggest allies for the law. He has been on TV numerous times. Now illegal dope smugglers shoot a deputy with AK-47s trying to protect their bails of mary jane...Yep, just seeking a better life and do work "mericans won't do.
I think you are refering to Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa Co.

[SicEmBaylor]

Probably the same way it was handled on those big southern plantations.

Yeah, but most people don't eat cotton.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

How is AZ setting a new tougher immigration law? The state isn't creating new immigration law that's tougher than the existing Federal standard -- they're simply changing its policy on how Police enforce existing Federal law. They aren't creating new penalties for illegal immigration that their courts would enforce...it's still up to the Feds how to prosecute each case under Federal law.

So, how is AZ changing how it enforces existing Federal law creating a new tougher standard of the law itself?

Arizona is making illegal presence a state crime. The feds consider it a civil violation, not criminal.

http://www.youtube.com/v/FDo-ZVK4dc0

[SanJoaquinSooner]

nm

[SanJoaquinSooner]

the Arizona law says if an officer, when enforcing the law, suspects someone is illegally present, he/she must pursue finding out (and he is subject to a lawsuit if he doesn't), and it also says that it's a crime to transport someone if you know they are illegally present.

now I'm wondering.... suppose I get stopped for not wearing a seat belt and the officer peaks inside my Chevy Astro Van and sees what appears to be 6 Latino males in their 20s. And further, the first thing that enters his mind is that I'm transporting illegals. Is he obligated to ask to see their IDs?

If they are actually U.S. citizens, are they required to have ID with them?

[I Am Right]

Praising Arizona
The state’s new immigration law is perfectly reasonable, but you wouldn’t know it from the New York Times.
30 April 2010
Supporters of Arizona’s new law strengthening immigration enforcement in the state should take heart from today’s New York Times editorial blasting it. “Stopping Arizona” contains so many blatant falsehoods that a reader can be fully confident that the law as actually written is a reasonable, lawful response to a pressing problem. Only by distorting the law’s provisions can the Times and the law’s many other critics make it out to be a racist assault on fundamental American rights.

The law, SB 1070, empowers local police officers to check the immigration status of individuals whom they have encountered during a “lawful contact,” if an officer reasonably suspects the person stopped of being in the country illegally, and if an inquiry into the person’s status is “practicable.” The officer may not base his suspicion of illegality “solely [on] race, color or national origin.” (Arizona lawmakers recently amended the law to change the term “lawful contact” to “lawful stop, detention or arrest” and deleted the word “solely” from the phrase regarding race, color, and national origin. The governor is expected to sign the amendments.) The law also requires aliens to carry their immigration documents, mirroring an identical federal requirement. Failure to comply with the federal law on carrying immigration papers becomes a state misdemeanor under the Arizona law.

Good luck finding any of these provisions in the Times’s editorial. Leave aside for the moment the sweeping conclusions with which the Times begins its screed—such gems as the charge that the law “turns all of the state’s Latinos, even legal immigrants and citizens, into criminal suspects” and is an act of “racial separation.” Instead, let’s see how the Times characterizes the specific legislative language, which is presumably the basis for its indictment.

The paper alleges that the “statute requires police officers to stop and question anyone who looks like an illegal immigrant.” False. The law gives an officer the discretion, when practicable, to determine someone’s immigration status only after the officer has otherwise made a lawful stop, detention, or arrest. It does not allow, much less require, fishing expeditions for illegal aliens. But if, say, after having stopped someone for running a red light, an officer discovers that the driver does not have a driver’s license, does not speak English, and has no other government identification on him, the officer may, if practicable, send an inquiry to his dispatcher to check the driver’s status with a federal immigration clearinghouse.

The Times then alleges that the law “empower[s] police officers to stop anyone they choose and demand to see papers.” False again, for the reasons stated above. An officer must have a lawful, independent basis for a stop; he can only ask to see papers if he has “reasonable suspicion” to believe that the person is in the country illegally. “Reasonable suspicion” is a legal concept of long-standing validity, rooted in the Constitution’s prohibition of “unreasonable searches and seizures.” It meaningfully constrains police activity; officers are trained in its contours, which have evolved through common-law precedents, as a matter of course. If the New York Times now thinks that the concept is insufficient as a check on police power, it will have to persuade every court and every law enforcement agency in the country to throw out the phrase—and the Constitution with it—and come up with something that suits the Times’s contempt for police power.

On broader legal issues, the Times is just as misleading. The paper alleges that the “Supreme Court has consistently ruled that states cannot make their own immigration laws.” Actually, the law on preemption is almost impossibly murky. As the Times later notes in its editorial, the Justice Department ruled in 2002, after surveying the relevant Supreme Court and appellate precedents, that “state and local police had ‘inherent authority’ to make immigration arrests.” The paper does not like that conclusion, but it has not been revoked as official legal advice. If states have inherent authority to make immigration arrests, they can certainly do so under a state law that merely tracks the federal law requiring that immigrants carry documentation.

The Times tips its hand at the end of the editorial. It calls for the Obama administration to end a program that trains local law enforcement officials in relevant aspects of immigration law and that deputizes them to act as full-fledged immigration agents. The so-called 287(g) program acts as a “force multiplier,” as the Times points out, adding local resources to immigration law enforcement—just as Arizona’s SB 1070 does. At heart, this force-multiplier effect is what the hysteria over Arizona’s law is all about: SB 1070 ups the chances that an illegal alien will actually be detected and—horror of horrors—deported. The illegal-alien lobby, of which the New York Times is a charter member, does not believe that U.S. immigration laws should be enforced. (The Times’s other contribution today to the prevailing de facto amnesty for illegal aliens was to fail to disclose, in an article about a brutal 2007 schoolyard execution in Newark, that the suspected leader was an illegal alien and member of the predominantly illegal-alien gang Mara Salvatrucha.) Usually unwilling for political reasons to say so explicitly, the lobby comes up with smoke screens—such as the Times’s demagogic charges about SB 1070 as an act of “racial separation”—to divert attention from the underlying issue. Playing the race card is the tactic of those unwilling to make arguments on the merits.

The Arizona law is not about race; it’s not an attack on Latinos or legal immigrants. It’s about one thing and one thing only: making immigration enforcement a reality. It is time for a national debate: Do we or don’t we want to enforce the country’s immigration laws? If the answer is yes, the Arizona law is a necessary and lawful tool for doing so. If the answer is no, we should end the charade of inadequate, half-hearted enforcement, enact an amnesty now, and remove future penalties for immigration violations.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

It is time for a national debate: Do we or don’t we want to enforce the country’s immigration laws? If the answer is yes, the Arizona law is a necessary and lawful tool for doing so. If the answer is no, we should end the charade of inadequate, half-hearted enforcement, enact an amnesty now, and remove future penalties for immigration violations.

OK, I vote for "No", although we shouldn't enact amnesty. They should pay a fine for the civil violation of being illegally present, and have it noted on their record. Amnesty is a full pardon, no fine, and no record of wrongdoing.

But I believe U.S. citizens and legal residents should have a free market of labor available to them. More would become employers instead of sapping off the man or Uncle Sam.

Employers should have the FREEDOM to hire the most qualified person in the world. No affirmative action just because you were born here.

End welfare so there's no incentive to live on the dole. Stop printing gov't checks and start printing more worker visas.

This is not about that "give me your tired, poor, huddled" bullsh*t, it's about about economic freedom and creating wealth for those who are willing to risk their capital and build on their sweat equity. Having an inexpensive supply of qualified labor is crucial.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

"I Am Right", who wrote the article criticizing the NYT? I love the link in your sig. Our PC friends on this message board should click there, for a little entertainment.

[delhalew]

Were it not for an ever increasing minimum wage, our young people could get used to earning money like they used to and all you goofballs who claim we need migrant workers would have to find another excuse for flooding our country with illegals.
Economic freedom...**** me.

[yermom]

minimum wage hasn't even increased with inflation

you can't support yourself like you used to working a crappy job

[RACHEL MADDOW is my clone]

Do you talk to yourself often?

Yes he does.

[delhalew]

minimum wage hasn't even increased with inflation

you can't support yourself like you used to working a crappy job

Every increase in the minimum wage ensures that unskilled jobs are harder to find and that wage buys less. A business will never take a hit the worker and the consumer will.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Economic freedom...**** me.

I agree. Economic freedom...**** you.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Every increase in the minimum wage ensures that unskilled jobs are harder to find and that wage buys less. A business will never take a hit the worker and the consumer will.The anti-capitalist politician votes to increase the min wage to impress his voting block. He pretends to not know what you are talking about(above) with that legislation. Unfortunately, a large % of his voting base actually believes the business owner is just going to sit there and take it in the shorts, and NOT BE TRULY ADVERSELY AFFECTED BY THAT STUPID TAX.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Anyone have a conjecture about the following scenario?




now I'm wondering.... suppose I get stopped for not wearing a seat belt and the officer peaks inside my Chevy Astro Van and sees what appears to be 6 Latino males in their 20s. And further, the first thing that enters his mind is that I'm transporting illegals. Is he obligated to ask to see their IDs?

If they are actually U.S. citizens, are they required to have ID with them? In this case, they are incident to a legal violation

[olevetonahill]

Ok jaun Ill play
as I have stated several times IT IS OKLAHOMA STATE LAW that you have an ID on you at all times .
Not sure about other states but here its the Law .

Now If Im a Az Cop ,and I see ya driving along and ya break the Law , IE speeding , Failure to stop etc. Ima Pull yer azz over and ask fer yer DL and Ins.
I see a Bunch of Folks in yer Van that I suspect are Illegas . Hell yes Ima aske fer theirs also . They dont got it :eek:
Guess what Yall ALL going to jail . Let the Judge werk it out
Hows that ?

[SicEmBaylor]

A friend took this pic in Phoenix a few days ago:
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs331.snc3/29148_1447358709061_1385991744_31222559_1683051_n. jpg

[Harry Beanbag]

A group of undocumented students stood on a stage at the park and "came out" regarding their immigration status.

Juan Baca was among those students. Baca, 19, whose parents brought him from Mexico illegally when he was 4 months old, said he has had to drop out of college and work several times already because he can't qualify for financial aid.

"It's been a struggle," he said. "I missed the mark by four months."

This portion truly boggles my mind. The disconnect from reality that some people have these days is frightening.

Oh, and **** you Juan Baca.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100502/ap_on_re_us/us_immigration_protests;_ylt=Aq8CRdVgl0t7SgVOiif4I gjZa7gF;_ylu=X3oDMTNjbDdza2hmBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwN TAyL3VzX2ltbWlncmF0aW9uX3Byb3Rlc3RzBGNjb2RlA21vc3R wb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDNgRwb3MDNgRzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3JpZ XMEc2xrA2FyaXpvbmFsYXdzcA--

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

A friend took this pic in Phoenix a few days ago:
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs331.snc3/29148_1447358709061_1385991744_31222559_1683051_n. jpgAnyone know if this or any like it was shown on MSM nightly news anywhere?

[SicEmBaylor]

Anyone know if this or any like it was shown on MSM nightly news anywhere?

I don't know, but I like the subtle unintended point he makes by using an adjective as a noun.

[Crucifax Autumn]

I'm not gonna support illegals, but that's not just photoshopped, but it's photoshopped badly.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I don't know, but I like the subtle unintended point he makes by using an adjective as a noun.As we know, freedom ain't free.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

A friend took this pic in Phoenix a few days ago:
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs331.snc3/29148_1447358709061_1385991744_31222559_1683051_n. jpg

Sic - don't you know this is a Republican plant, probably that Pimp guy to stir things up...

[TUSooner]

I'm pretty sure that's a fark and a bad one. But anyay, here's a sane and sensible argument against illegal immigration.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/clarence-b-jones/charges-of-racism-for-cri_b_562318.html

[delhalew]

How dare a blogger at the nuthington post get inside my head like. If they keep putting up blog posts that make sense, people might start reading their blogs.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

How dare a blogger at the nuthington post get inside my head like. If they keep putting up blog posts that make sense, people might start reading their blogs.Huffington herself was once a conservative. Maybe she needs money, now?

[delhalew]

Huffington herself was once a conservative. Maybe she needs money, now?

I can guarantee that cow was never an actual conservative. She may had been counted amoung the ranks of deceptiCONs being seen at all the right cocktail parties on the beltway, but she lacks a single principled bone in her body. Little r republicanism is based on a set of principles. Once you have them, you don't lose them.
That's my opinion.

[SicEmBaylor]

Little r republicanism is based on a set of principles. Once you have them, you don't lose them.
That's my opinion.

This is 100% correct.

[JohnnyMack]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/clarence-b-jones/charges-of-racism-for-cri_b_562318.html

Nice article. This law is an almost expected blow back from a people frustrated with a lack of action from its Federal Govt. Our nation has become really good at developing systemic failures and then having massive fights over the unintended consequences of those failures. I liken this new AZ law to the Patriot Act. Both are reactions to the effects of failed policies that caused the situation in the first place. We're good at arguing over how to bail water out of a bathtub but we're terrible at figuring out how to turn off the faucet.

[Leroy Lizard]

I think there's more to it. I think the law is a reaction to fears that the powers in place will open the tap for new waves of Democratic-voting Hispanics through massive amnesty/citizenship drives. "He may pick cotton for a living and he may speak little English, but he can vote for me and that's all that matters. And there's millions more where he came from."

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I think there's more to it. I think the law is a reaction to fears that the powers in place will open the tap for new waves of Democratic-voting Hispanics through massive amnesty/citizenship drives. "He may pick cotton for a living and he may speak little English, but he can vote for me and that's all that matters. And there's millions more where he came from."Why resort to this aspect of voter fraud, when, with the stroke of a pen, they be legal democrats.

[JohnnyMack]

I think there's more to it. I think the law is a reaction to fears that the powers in place will open the tap for new waves of Democratic-voting Hispanics through massive amnesty/citizenship drives. "He may pick cotton for a living and he may speak little English, but he can vote for me and that's all that matters. And there's millions more where he came from."

Ummm...the Democrats have been doing that with poor people since FDR.

[Leroy Lizard]

Ummm...the Democrats have been doing that with poor people since FDR.

Yeah, but it didn't wipe out the Republican Party. I think Obama and ilk think this could do the trick. They may be right.

FDR tried to pack the Supreme Court for much of the same reasons. Don't think the Supreme Court will go for your plans? Make it larger and stock it with your own "yes" men.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Ummm...the Democrats have been doing that with poor people since FDR.

Yeah, but it didn't wipe out the Republican Party.


The poor rode the upward mobility ladder into the middle class and become republicans. But the pubs managed to F--k it up more than once ...

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Yeah, but it didn't wipe out the Republican Party. I think Obama and ilk think this could do the trick. They may be right.

FDR tried to pack the Supreme Court for much of the same reasons. Don't think the Supreme Court will go for your plans? Make it larger and stock it with your own "yes" men.If the dems don't lose at least one house of congress in November, then OUCH, America Transformed!

[I Am Right]

http://mfile.akamai.com/5020/wma/rushlimb.download.akamai.com/5020/clips/07/02/Amigo-card.asx

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Coupla thousand pro-illegals formed downtown PHX yesterday, to see Al Sharpton spout his wisdom, and peace-loving message. The CBS affiliate had a ball covering it, and giving the impression that the movement is larger than it actually was, IMHO.

[SicEmBaylor]

Here's something unbelievable to me. Contrast this audio tape with how the government treats ILLEGAL immigrants from Mexico:

Disgusting

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/57247.html

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Here's something unbelievable to me. Contrast this audio tape with how the government treats ILLEGAL immigrants from Mexico:

Disgusting

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/57247.htmlIt's like a movie...and, you're right, it's disgusting.

[SicEmBaylor]

It's like a movie...and, you're right, it's disgusting.

The thing is, is there ANYONE who thinks a Muslim couple crossing the border would be treated that way? **** no.

The fact that they're harassing a married couple from Canada going shopping for the day when there are a bajillion illegals running around the country makes my damned blood boil.

And they catch 3 terrorists a day coming across the border at that ONE crossing? I call BS.

[Flagstaffsooner]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7UKllR0Edo

[yermom]

Here's something unbelievable to me. Contrast this audio tape with how the government treats ILLEGAL immigrants from Mexico:

Disgusting

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/57247.html

how do you think illegals trying to go into El Paso to do some shopping would be treated?

[SicEmBaylor]

how do you think illegals trying to go into El Paso to do some shopping would be treated?

These people weren't illegals. That's the point. They're Canadians legally crossing the border for a day of shopping not illegally crossing the border to steal someone's job and ruin our culture.

[yermom]

and what does that have to do with how illegals are treated?

honestly, cops treat people like that all the time, illegal or not

[SanJoaquinSooner]

These people weren't illegals. That's the point.

No, there not illegals, they're Canadians. Did you hear them being asked for a visa? No. Canadians don't need a visa to cross.

For polite Canadians: "let me welcome you to the U.S."
For polite Mexicans: "let me see your visa"

You're clueless, when a Mexican goes through a border crossing he doesn't dare act like an arrogant d1ck like this Canadian did, or else the guard will threaten to take away his visa. you don't even have to act like a d1ck and they threaten to do that, just because they can.

[olevetonahill]

No, there not illegals, they're Canadians. Did you hear them being asked for a visa? No. Canadians don't need a visa to cross.

For polite Canadians: "let me welcome you to the U.S."
For polite Mexicans: "let me see your visa"

You're clueless, when a Mexican goes through a border crossing he doesn't dare act like an arrogant d1ck like this Canadian did, or else the guard will threaten to take away his visa. you don't even have to act like a d1ck and they threaten to do that, just because they can.

Sorry jaun when a beaner goes thru the border crossing Hes/ shes doing it Legally !
They go thru legally they OK
Its the WETS that most of us have a ****ing Problem with !:rolleyes:
Pay tention

[olevetonahill]

No, there not illegals, they're Canadians. Did you hear them being asked for a visa? No. Canadians don't need a visa to cross.

For polite Canadians: "let me welcome you to the U.S."
For polite Mexicans: "let me see your visa"

You're clueless, when a Mexican goes through a border crossing he doesn't dare act like an arrogant d1ck like this Canadian did, or else the guard will threaten to take away his visa. you don't even have to act like a d1ck and they threaten to do that, just because they can.

Oh and KC can kiss my azz .:D

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Sorry jaun when a beaner goes thru the border crossing Hes/ shes doing it Legally !
They go thru legally they OK
Its the WETS that most of us have a ****ing Problem with !:rolleyes:
Pay tention

You're hopeless. It's a lost cause arguing with you that the rules for Mexicans visiting the U.S. should be the same as those for Canadians. Mexicans are required to have visas issued by U.S. and Canadians are not.

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/canada.jpghttp://www.iministries.org/Content/10267/PhotoGalleries/91196/91205-large.jpg

[Curly Bill]

Why do we even have rules for messicans visiting the US? Messicans know nothing about rules -- look at that ****ed up country, not to mention the great respect they show to US immigration law.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Canadians grow much better weed and don't shoot people over it so they get a free pass in my book.

[Curly Bill]

Canadians get a free pass in my book because after visiting here they normally go back to their own damn country.

[Crucifax Autumn]

That too, but I was going in order of importance.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Why do we even have rules for messicans visiting the US? Messicans know nothing about rules -- look at that ****ed up country, not to mention the great respect they show to US immigration law.

you're right, it worked much better when there weren't rules for them visiting. they came and went as needed.

[Curly Bill]

Canadians also don't in large numbers drive stupid-*** looking lowrider cars/trucks. I mean really, how freaking ghey are those things?

[Curly Bill]

What kind of lowrider are you sporting Jaun?

[Crucifax Autumn]

I have a low-rider scooter and a man purse.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

What kind of lowrider are you sporting Jaun?

Those aren't migrants from Michoacan who drive lowriders.

[SicEmBaylor]

I have a low-rider scooter and a man purse.

How you doin'?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Canadians get a free pass in my book because after visiting here they normally go back to their own damn country.
Not that many Stand-Up Comedian jobs in the U.S.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

http://cakefineart.com/images/carne%20asada%20tacos.jpg

If Canadians are so great, how come you never see any trucks selling Canadian cuisine?


Curly Bill: "Hon, let's eat Canadian tonight." I don't think so.

[olevetonahill]

You're hopeless. It's a lost cause arguing with you that the rules for Mexicans visiting the U.S. should be the same as those for Canadians. Mexicans are required to have visas issued by U.S. and Canadians are not.

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/canada.jpghttp://www.iministries.org/Content/10267/PhotoGalleries/91196/91205-large.jpg



See jaun this is where we differ !

I dont give a **** which border ya cross , Just go by the rules and Go Home !:rolleyes:

[Crucifax Autumn]

They have a brownie and beer truck.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

See jaun this is where we differ !

I dont give a **** which border ya cross , Just go by the rules and Go Home !:rolleyes:

The rules should be the same for Maria from Michoacan as they are for Abbie from Ontario.

[SCOUT]

The rules should be the same for Maria from Michoacan as they are for Abbie from Ontario.

This is too simplistic in my opinion. Should people in say Syria be treated the same as people from Portugal? Countries have different internal issues and variables and those should have an effect on the US immigration policy to that country.

Mexico has enough internal problems that their citizenry is willing to risk life and limb, and break our laws, to sneak into our country. That isn't the same in Canada. When Canada is contributing millions and millions of illegal aliens to this country each year, I will be on board treating them the same way.

[Leroy Lizard]

Another difference: Canada has almost always been a strong ally of the U.S.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Except when they bombed the Baldwins.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

This is too simplistic in my opinion. Should people in say Syria be treated the same as people from Portugal? Countries have different internal issues and variables and those should have an effect on the US immigration policy to that country.

Mexico has enough internal problems that their citizenry is willing to risk life and life, and break our laws, to sneak into our country. That isn't the same in Canada. When Canada is contributing millions and millions of illegal aliens to this country each year, I will be on board treating them the same way.

Syria is our enemy. Mexico is one of our best friends in the Western Hemishere - our second largest trading partner. With enemies like Cuba and Venezuela, we need friends like Mexico.

Of course millions of Canadians don't sneak in. They are allowed to walk across without of visa.

What you're saying is like, "if white people ever sit in the front of the bus illegally, we'll start treating them differently."

[Leroy Lizard]

Syria is our enemy. Mexico is one of our best friends in the Western Hemishere - our second largest trading partner. With enemies like Cuba and Venezuela, we need friends like Mexico.

Who is our first largest trading partner?

You vastly overestimate Mexico's friendliness to the U.S. They consider us their dumping ground for their problems, including the poor. They have never fought along side us in any war that I can remember. Were they even involved in the Korean War?

Check out the story about the New River in California.

[SCOUT]

Syria is our enemy. Mexico is one of our best friends in the Western Hemishere - our second largest trading partner. With enemies like Cuba and Venezuela, we need friends like Mexico.

Of course millions of Canadians don't sneak in. They are allowed to walk across without of visa.

What you're saying is like, "if white people ever sit in the front of the bus illegally, we'll start treating them differently."

Your first point confirms what I am saying. We do treat countries differently based on any number of factors.

They are allowed to walk across with visas because they generally go back. Consider it a conditioned response by the US government. Another more important reason they don't sneak in though is that Canada doesn't have the political and economic problems that cause its citizens to break immigration laws. I am confident that if we didn't require visas for Mexicans we would still have the immigration problems we have today, probably worse.

Your injection of racism is duly noted. :rolleyes: That aside, are you suggesting that we shouldn't treat people who break the law differently than those who do not?

[JohnnyMack]

Syria is our enemy. Mexico is one of our best friends in the Western Hemishere - our second largest trading partner. With enemies like Cuba and Venezuela, we need friends like Mexico.

Of course millions of Canadians don't sneak in. They are allowed to walk across without of visa.

What you're saying is like, "if white people ever sit in the front of the bus illegally, we'll start treating them differently."

The economic status of Canada vs. the economic status of Mexico is the reason we have a more strident policy towards our southern border than our northern. If the Mexican government did a better job of development, you'd have fewer people wanting to go from a B level society to an A level society. The US's attitude towards Mexicans vs. Canadians isn't racially motivated, it's economically motivated. You can play the race card if you want, but if the roles were reversed I can guarantee you that we'd be lining up fences along the Montana border.

That being said I think the Federal Govt. of the US should work on reforming how it is people from B level countries like Mexico are allowed to enter this country. I see them as a source of both workers and revenue. My big problem with illegal immigrants is that they don't pay into the system they're trying to be a part of. My fear is that allowing more people from a low economic status to enter the country will lead to a further burden on our resources (welfare, medicare, etc.) and that all of these people will become Democrats who will cement a left-wing lock on our governing bodies and lead to an even more unsustainable form of Government.

I'd be all for opening the borders if we had a flat tax and the people from Mexico were required to actually pay their fair share.

[delhalew]

http://cakefineart.com/images/carne%20asada%20tacos.jpg

If Canadians are so great, how come you never see any trucks selling Canadian cuisine?


Curly Bill: "Hon, let's eat Canadian tonight." I don't think so.

Pay attention sparky. Canadian migrant workers don't flood across our borders.
I know how much you love these migrant workers, so I'm gonna let you in a secret. A large number of them don't care about contributing to our society. They want come here and undercut our workers and take the money back to their country. They are leeches. Their lack of respect is a disease, Intellectually honest hispanics know this. Those who are proud of their earned citizenship are as disgusted by it as I am.
In order to keep track of this economic invasion force, they must be required to have a visa.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Pay attention sparky. Canadian migrant workers don't flood across our borders.
I know how much you love these migrant workers, so I'm gonna let you in a secret. A large number of them don't care about contributing to our society. They want come here and undercut our workers and take the money back to their country. They are leeches. Their lack of respect is a disease, Intellectually honest hispanics know this. Those who are proud of their earned citizenship are as disgusted by it as I am.
In order to keep track of this economic invasion force, they must be required to have a visa.


Thanks for letting me in on your secret. Funny though, you conveniently left out the fact that they provided labor for the money they earned. A plentiful supply of labor is necessary for robust economic activity. We get labor in exchange of the money. Labor helps create wealth. I believe in a free market of labor.

For 25 years I've lived in a county with over $2 billion annual agricultural revenue in the heart of the San Joaquin Valley. I know the economic benefit is not just for the owner of the business but all the tangential business, e.g., irrigation supplies, insurance, shipping and receiving, and on and on. I've known innumerable migrant workers and more significantly, innumerable former migrant workers and descendents of migrants workers - who climbed up the economic ladder of upward mobility. And worker visas would facilitate upward mobility even more.

That's the great thing about the U.S. -- one is not bound to the lower class.

If your impression is one of leeches and lack of respect, I don't believe you know very many. The ones I know are humble, hardworking and would treat you like a king if you were a guest in their home - here or in Mexico.

[Curly Bill]

Thanks for letting me in on your secret. Funny though, you conveniently left out the fact that they provided labor for the money they earned. A plentiful supply of labor is necessary for robust economic activity. We get labor in exchange of the money. Labor helps create wealth. I believe in a free market of labor.

For 25 years I've lived in a county with over $2 billion annual agricultural revenue in the heart of the San Joaquin Valley. I know the economic benefit is not just for the owner of the business but all the tangential business, e.g., irrigation supplies, insurance, shipping and receiving, and on and on. I've known innumerable migrant workers and more significantly, innumerable former migrant workers and descendents of migrants workers - who climbed up the economic ladder of upward mobility. And worker visas would facilitate upward mobility even more.

That's the great thing about the U.S. -- one is not bound to the lower class.

If your impression is one of leeches and lack of respect, I don't believe you know very many. The ones I know are humble, hardworking and would treat you like a king if you were a guest in their home - here or in Mexico.

...but then there's that damn illegal bugaboo. ;)

[Leroy Lizard]

For 25 years I've lived in a county with over $2 billion annual agricultural revenue in the heart of the San Joaquin Valley.

You mean, the part of the country that has been wiped out financially? The part of California that has struggled the most economically?

Third-world labor is great for the company that hires it, but it is tough on the state overall because of the huge social services involved.

The biggest impact is on our respect for laws. When we look the other way when our laws are blatantly violated, what does that say about us as a society?

[yermom]

slaves were good for the local economy too ;)

[Curly Bill]

slaves were good for the local economy too ;)

You may be on to something! Anyone that comes here illegally to work and gets caught becomes a slave of the state they are caught in for a period of lets say...20 years. During those 20 years they get to work building us new highways, bridges, public parks and such.

Oh, and when they're done we ship their a** back to where they came from and tell them to tell the folks down there how their experience went.

[yermom]

i'm just saying, people talk about the effects on the economy if we didn't have illegals picking lettuce or whatever and skirting labor laws

how is that any better than the Nike sweatshops people always complain about?

[olevetonahill]

I dont buy Nike junk made by them poor kids
and If it aint Picked in Merica By Mericans I aint a eatin that shat either :cool:

[yermom]

good luck with that... unless you are growing it

and i'm talking about lettuce not "lettuce" :D

[SanJoaquinSooner]

You mean, the part of the country that has been wiped out financially? The part of California that has struggled the most economically?

Third-world labor is great for the company that hires it, but it is tough on the state overall because of the huge social services involved.

The biggest impact is on our respect for laws. When we look the other way when our laws are blatantly violated, what does that say about us as a society?

The price of homes in the San Joaquin Valley may have dropped from $400,000 to $200,000 during this severe recession, but agricultural output has hardly skipped a beat -as robust as ever.

Great for the company that hires it? Don't forget the consumer! Never has there been such an economically efficient production of food - Calif is #1 in the nation. Everyone who consumes food benefits.

Also #1 export industry in U.S. is tourism (as measured by foreign $ received). Hotel/restaurant industry is heavily dependent of the labor of migrants and their descendents.

Let's see. Maybe your preferred, migrant-less, economic model can be found in Detroit auto factories.

[delhalew]

If only we had a labor pool in this country...oh yeah, we do. The problem is there are not enough demand for our labor. That's a shame. Luckily, cheap lettuce totally makes up for not having a job.

You've got to love someone who's logic is either to let illegals provide labor at slave wages or the bloated opulence of a union that will strong arm itself out of a job. Of course, a union doesn't care if there are no cars to be made. Their real role is as a political arm. Wait, illegals are being co opted by the democratic party as well.
Wow. No wonder they pretend there is no middle of the road option.

[Flagstaffsooner]

juan got job and is finally off the public dole.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/185/424895727_4d0210ee94.jpg?v=0

[TUSooner]

If only we had a labor pool in this country...oh yeah, we do. The problem is there are not enough demand for our labor. That's a shame. Luckily, cheap lettuce totally makes up for not having a job.

You've got to love someone who's logic is either to let illegals provide labor at slave wages or the bloated opulence of a union that will strong arm itself out of a job. Of course, a union doesn't care if there are no cars to be made. Their real role is as a political arm. Wait, illegals are being co opted by the democratic party as well.
Wow. No wonder they pretend there is no middle of the road option.

Seems like the obvious answer is to unionize the Mexican labor force in Mexico. :)

[olevetonahill]

good luck with that... unless you are growing it

and i'm talking about lettuce not "lettuce" :D

I look at the labels afore I eat it :D

[delhalew]

Seems like the obvious answer is to unionize the Mexican labor force in Mexico. :)

Well the purple shirted thugs of the SEIU have been leading protests of immigration law enforcement...there you go. Unions, Sharpton and illegals, why couldn't a disaster pick THAT place and make our lives easier.

[Leroy Lizard]

The price of homes in the San Joaquin Valley may have dropped from $400,000 to $200,000 during this severe recession, but agricultural output has hardly skipped a beat -as robust as ever.

Agriculture has skipped a beat. In fact, farmers are in huge trouble there.

The midwest has agriculture too and far fewer illegal aliens. They have very little tourism either. For some reason, they are not as bad off as California.

BTW, we're talking about illegal migrants here, not just migrants. I have no problem with Mexicans who are here legally. None at all.

[Tailwind]

Your lack of understanding is your problem.

No, I think it's your lack of understanding that is the problem.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

You mean, the part of the country that has been wiped out financially? The part of California that has struggled the most economically?

Third-world labor is great for the company that hires it, but it is tough on the state overall because of the huge social services involved.

The financial problems of California are not difficult to diagnose and migrants aren't the cause of the huge deficits.

California for most of the last 30 years was booming, creating enormous wealth in multiple industries. And migrant labor - in agriculture, food prep, tourist, and construction industries - played a significant role.

The problem was the state and local gov'ts negotiated sweetheart deals with the unions that weren't sustainable in a severe recession. You may not be able to imagine how many state, county, and local workers make 70, 80, 90, 100, 110, 120, 200 K. They get nice titles like director and coordinator and such. The education establishment is full of employees who don't teach but draw fat salaries.

I know of some public school districts that paid 100% of health insurance for all full time employees. And that was before obamacare.

And the pensions are unsustainable as well.

On top of that, the gov't revenues are heavy on taxing well-to-do, whose incomes dropped dramatically during this recession.

The part of gov't which relies on property taxes became spoiled with 3 bedroom tract homes valued at a half million, and acted as if that trend would continue indefinitely.

Gov't was spoiled rotten by 30 years of good times and didn't plan for a rainy day. It gave away all the golden eggs the damned goose had laid.


The biggest impact is on our respect for laws. When we look the other way when our laws are blatantly violated, what does that say about us as a society?

Sorry, I just can't fit into the holier-than-thou crowd. I've been in higher ed most of my adult life, so I work with college students, most of whom are criminals. They use fake and borrowed IDs to drink alcohol, they smoke pot and use other illegal drugs, they routinely break copyright laws, they illegally gamble online, they don't pay state sales tax of some internet purchases, and I'm sure there are many other laws they break. Some even copy their classmate's homework. And all the while, at state institutions the taxpayer is picking up a majority of the tuition subsidy for these criminals. In spite of that, I still think most will make a positive contribution to society.

Changing one's status from illegally present to legally present could be as easy as changing the status of an unlicensed/uninsured driver to a licensed/insured one, and we don't call that amnesty.

What does it say about our society? It says sometimes we make laws that are counter to the laws of supply and demand.


It's somewhat "interesting" that many conservatives play defense on this issue - worrying about the sustainability of the welfare state instead of seeing it as an opportunity to argue against a welfare state and for a free market with no free rides, including a free market of labor where the employers decide who are most deserving of employment, instead of gov't bureaucrats.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Your injection of racism is duly noted. :rolleyes:

I'm playing the nationality card, not the race card. Mexicans are treated differently than Canadians. I'm not claiming the reason is due to race.

However, to be sure, Rosa Parks wasn't legally able to sit at the front of the bus because of race. And it would be nonsensical to claim the reason whites were allowed to sit at the front was because they were law-abiding busriders.


That aside, are you suggesting that we shouldn't treat people who break the law differently than those who do not?

My point is that Mexicans who try to visit the U.S. LEGALLY are treated differently than Canadians who do.

If a Canadian has a U.S. citizen sister, she can visit her in the U.S. anytime, without a tourist visa or a resident visa -- no visa of any type is required. In fact, she doesn't need to have a U.S. sister to visit without a visa.

If a Mexican has a U.S. citizen sister, she first has to get a visa. If she has applied for a resident visa, she may have to wait 20 years. And during that time, she is not allowed to visit under a tourist visa.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Yuo know juan, in these arguments you always make actual good and humane points that jibe well with racial and immigration history and I'd actually take your side on more of it than most people here. You screw it up though when you seem to frequently imply that they are all perfectly good law abiding citizens or attempt to justify their breaking our laws by overstaying visas. We as a nation learned a decade ago that foreigners vanishing from legal oversight can sometimes lead to very bad things, so even without the racial issues, crime issues,the economic hardships in mexico, etc., it is still a very serious thing when we don't know who's here or what they are doing

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Yuo know juan, in these arguments you always make actual good and humane points that jibe well with racial and immigration history and I'd actually take your side on more of it than most people here. You screw it up though when you seem to frequently imply that they are all perfectly good law abiding citizens or attempt to justify their breaking our laws by overstaying visas. We as a nation learned a decade ago that foreigners vanishing from legal oversight can sometimes lead to very badit is still a very serious thing when we don't know who's here or what they are doing things, so even without the racial issues, crime issues,the economic hardships in mexico, etc.,

I don't think we did learn. We have 10.8 million illegally present because of existing laws. I'm not FOR illegal immigration. I've consistently argued for a better way - biometric worker visas without the red tape and restrictions of current H2A and H2B visas. That will help keep track of migrant workers. When the economy contracts during a recession and when seasonal work is slow, they are more likely to go home, knowing they can return when economic activity returns, like the circular migration common during the first 85 years of the 20th century. They worked March to November and went home. It was tight borders that made them reluctant to go home, knowing how difficult it would be to return. In fact tight borders made it MORE likely to bring the whole family over.

[JohnnyMack]

I don't think we did learn. We have 10.8 million illegally present because of existing laws. I'm not FOR illegal immigration. I've consistently argued for a better way - biometric worker visas without the red tape and restrictions of current H2A and H2B visas. That will help keep track of migrant workers. When the economy contracts during a recession and when seasonal work is slow, they are more likely to go home, knowing they can return when economic activity returns, like the circular migration common during the first 85 years of the 20th century. They worked March to November and went home. It was tight borders that made them reluctant to go home, knowing how difficult it would be to return. In fact tight borders made it MORE likely to bring the whole family over.

So they can have their cake and eat it too? They can stay here under a visa, stay in an economic class that is required to pay very little into our current tax structure and then just skeedaddle back to Mexico when work dries up? Sounds like a great idea. :rolleyes:

[Harry Beanbag]

We have 10.8 million illegally present because they broke the existing laws.


Fixed.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Fixed.

exactly. the laws are broken.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

So they can have their cake and eat it too? They can stay here under a visa, stay in an economic class that is required to pay very little into our current tax structure and then just skeedaddle back to Mexico when work dries up? Sounds like a great idea. :rolleyes:

The value of low wage workers is not the income tax they pay. Modest wage earners who are U.S. citizens don't pay much tax either. The value of modest wage earners is the productive labor they provide to help create wealth.

Why would you want excess workers hanging around once tourist high season is over or harvest is over or when construction slows due to winter weather? Let them go home for 4 months and spend time with their family.

As far as having cake and eating it .... whomever are the most productive workers. Let free markets decide.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Only if it becomes standard procedure that the rest of us get 4 months off a year.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Can anyone say chain gangs for cheap labor???

Will help with that gang prison population, their azz will be too tired to fight or they will hate the work so much, they'll fly right to not go back to prison. Oh, those leg chains can be heavy as well. If they flee, a well placed rifle shot or shot gun will prevent further running. Angola prison in Louisiana seems to have the right idea.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Only if it becomes standard procedure that the rest of us get 4 months off a year.

Crucifax, if your boss will let you off, I can get you a place to stay, no cost, a few hours from Guadalajara - where no tourists ever go. Paradise in the winter.

I had a good friend at OU who packed his little Karmann Ghia immediately after spring semester final exams and drove to Tahoe to work as a "change maker" in one of the casinos. Lived in some dump with a bunch of other students there to do the same thing. Had 3 or 4 fun summers doing that and saved money for school (never gambled) and saw all the shows that passed through. He said the Jackson 5 was head and shoulders above the rest.

[JohnnyMack]

The value of low wage workers is not the income tax they pay. Modest wage earners who are U.S. citizens don't pay much tax either. The value of modest wage earners is the productive labor they provide to help create wealth.

Why would you want excess workers hanging around once tourist high season is over or harvest is over or when construction slows due to winter weather? Let them go home for 4 months and spend time with their family.

As far as having cake and eating it .... whomever are the most productive workers. Let free markets decide.

I would say I'm as opposed to our current tax structure as I am your free border idea.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

LET ME SEE IF I GOT THIS RIGHT!!!


IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD LABOR.

IF YOU CROSS THE IRANIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU ARE DETAINED INDEFINITELY.

IF YOU CROSS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY, YOU GET SHOT.

IF YOU CROSS THE SAUDI ARABIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE JAILED.

IF YOU CROSS THE CHINESE BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU MAY NEVER BE HEARD FROM AGAIN.

IF YOU CROSS THEVENEZUELAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE BRANDED A SPY AND YOUR FATE WILL BE SEALED.

IF YOU CROSS THE CUBAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE THROWN INTO POLITICAL PRISON TO ROT.

IF YOU CROSS THE U.S.BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET

1 - A JOB,
2 - A DRIVERS LICENSE,
3 - SOCIAL SECURITY CARD,
4 - WELFARE,
5 - FOOD STAMPS,
6 - CREDIT CARDS,
7 - SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE,
8 - FREE EDUCATION,
9 - FREE HEALTH CARE,
10 - A LOBBYIST IN WASHINGTON
11 - BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PUBLIC DOCUMENTS PRINTED IN YOUR LANGUAGE
12 - AND THE RIGHT TO CARRY YOUR COUNTRY'S FLAG WHILE YOU PROTEST THAT YOU DON'T GET ENOUGH RESPECT


I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE I HAD A FIRM GRASP ON THE SITUATION.

[delhalew]

Kids on break from from school used to provide this cheap labor. Just like I loaded hay, then I stepped up to roofing, then working with a contractor. This how I got a car and made it to college.
Right now high school kids can't find jobs. Why pay a kid $7 plus to do job when the local illegal will do it for less? At least, that is what happens not that I agree with the other law breakers who hire them.

[yermom]

LET ME SEE IF I GOT THIS RIGHT!!!


IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD LABOR.

IF YOU CROSS THE IRANIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU ARE DETAINED INDEFINITELY.

IF YOU CROSS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY, YOU GET SHOT.

IF YOU CROSS THE SAUDI ARABIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE JAILED.

IF YOU CROSS THE CHINESE BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU MAY NEVER BE HEARD FROM AGAIN.

IF YOU CROSS THEVENEZUELAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE BRANDED A SPY AND YOUR FATE WILL BE SEALED.

IF YOU CROSS THE CUBAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE THROWN INTO POLITICAL PRISON TO ROT.

IF YOU CROSS THE U.S.BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET

1 - A JOB,
2 - A DRIVERS LICENSE,
3 - SOCIAL SECURITY CARD,
4 - WELFARE,
5 - FOOD STAMPS,
6 - CREDIT CARDS,
7 - SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE,
8 - FREE EDUCATION,
9 - FREE HEALTH CARE,
10 - A LOBBYIST IN WASHINGTON
11 - BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PUBLIC DOCUMENTS PRINTED IN YOUR LANGUAGE
12 - AND THE RIGHT TO CARRY YOUR COUNTRY'S FLAG WHILE YOU PROTEST THAT YOU DON'T GET ENOUGH RESPECT


I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE I HAD A FIRM GRASP ON THE SITUATION.

perhaps you should move to one of those places since you like their laws so much

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

perhaps you should move to one of those places since you like their laws so muchThen I would have to illegally enter the USA for a better life.(as if I liked their laws)

[yermom]

dude. all those places suck, so why do we care what stupid **** they do with respect to illegals?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

dude. all those places suck, so why do we care what stupid **** they do with respect to illegals?You KNOW that's not the point of the joke, don't you?

[yermom]

oh, it was a joke

i guess i missed the part where it was funny ;)

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

oh, it was a joke

i guess i missed the part where it was funny ;)I apologize for calling it a joke. But, you DO realize that no respect nor admiration was given to those Socialist, despotic countries in that piece.

[yermom]

so you want our laws to mirror those of Socialist despotic regimes?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

so you want our laws to mirror those of Socialist despotic regimes?Of course I do. WTF, don't you? haha. Particularly the "fate will be sealed' one. Well, we could just throw in the towel, and all become wards of the state. That's sorta what our leaders want anyway, isn't it?

[Harry Beanbag]

exactly. the laws are broken.

By criminals.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Si se puedes, hombre! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSuqU0Yx4jw&feature=player_embedded

[Leroy Lizard]

By criminals.

I actually don't have any hard feelings for illegal aliens. They're doing what many of us would do. My problem is with the system we have in place and our some of our attitudes toward the problem.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I actually don't have any hard feelings for illegal aliens. They're doing what many of us would do. My problem is with the system we have in place and our some of our attitudes toward the problem.They are told by all that we don't enforce our laws, and that life is sugar Up North.

[Harry Beanbag]

I actually don't have any hard feelings for illegal aliens.

Individually, I don't really either. As a whole, they are a large factor in the bankrupting of American states, not to mention a lot of other problems they cause.

[yermom]

the same could be said about Americans :D

[SanJoaquinSooner]

By criminals.

OK, Harry, let us look at a similar situation and how (or if) it was resolved.

Just a few years ago, there were over a million songs illegally downloaded every day --with an estimated 50 million criminals stealing content. This was serious stuff- and against the law of the land as well as against one of those laws carved up for Moses and his people.

With the music companies at their wits' end, they began targeting the biggest offenders and making them pay for the 2000 or 3000 songs they downloaded. That's amazing when you think about it. The biggest thieves were simply punished by paying for what they stole.

But seriously, what do you do about 50 million criminals who, on a daily basis, flaunt the law?

The resolution was to address the supply and demand issue. Downloaders justified the stealing, in their own mind, by saying they just wanted one song from an album and they weren't going to pay $15 for the whole damned album. But when the 99 cent per song became available, there was less justification for stealing. 99 cents is a reasonable price for one song. And those who had previously downloaded music illegally were allowed to purchase the 99 cent songs (i.e., in effect, given amnesty). This seems much more reasonable than any attempt to try, convict, and sentence all downloading thieves. Think of the challenge of finding 12 people for a jury who had never conspired to download a song illegally. Times 50 million.

With migrants, they see a job opportunity in the states and justify illegally working because there is no reasonable path to a legal visa to get that job. If we reform the H2A and H2B visas to make them accessable, they will work legally.




And Harry, there's a thread nearby about "Moms for pot." I trust you will go over there to ask them if they understand what the word illegal means and to remind them that pot smokers are criminals.

[yermom]

more like they shut down Napster, polluted p2p networks and went after places like the pirate bay

now you can just stream individual songs from last.fm or youtube or myspace

[Crucifax Autumn]

I just hope they wait to shut down Rapidshare until after my account expires.

[Harry Beanbag]

OK, Harry, let us look at a similar situation and how (or if) it was resolved.

Just a few years ago, there were over a million songs illegally downloaded every day --with an estimated 50 million criminals stealing content. This was serious stuff- and against the law of the land as well as against one of those laws carved up for Moses and his people.

With the music companies at their wits' end, they began targeting the biggest offenders and making them pay for the 2000 or 3000 songs they downloaded. That's amazing when you think about it. The biggest thieves were simply punished by paying for what they stole.

But seriously, what do you do about 50 million criminals who, on a daily basis, flaunt the law?

The resolution was to address the supply and demand issue. Downloaders justified the stealing, in their own mind, by saying they just wanted one song from an album and they weren't going to pay $15 for the whole damned album. But when the 99 cent per song became available, there was less justification for stealing. 99 cents is a reasonable price for one song. And those who had previously downloaded music illegally were allowed to purchase the 99 cent songs (i.e., in effect, given amnesty). This seems much more reasonable than any attempt to try, convict, and sentence all downloading thieves. Think of the challenge of finding 12 people for a jury who had never conspired to download a song illegally. Times 50 million.

With migrants, they see a job opportunity in the states and justify illegally working because there is no reasonable path to a legal visa to get that job. If we reform the H2A and H2B visas to make them accessable, they will work legally.




And Harry, there's a thread nearby about "Moms for pot." I trust you will go over there to ask them if they understand what the word illegal means and to remind them that pot smokers are criminals.


I fail to see how downloading songs from the internet is even remotely similar to the economic and physical security of the United States.

[King Barry's Back]

LET ME SEE IF I GOT THIS RIGHT!!!


IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD LABOR.

IF YOU CROSS THE IRANIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU ARE DETAINED INDEFINITELY.

IF YOU CROSS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY, YOU GET SHOT.

IF YOU CROSS THE SAUDI ARABIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE JAILED.

IF YOU CROSS THE CHINESE BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU MAY NEVER BE HEARD FROM AGAIN.

IF YOU CROSS THEVENEZUELAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE BRANDED A SPY AND YOUR FATE WILL BE SEALED.

IF YOU CROSS THE CUBAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE THROWN INTO POLITICAL PRISON TO ROT.

IF YOU CROSS THE U.S.BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET

1 - A JOB,
2 - A DRIVERS LICENSE,
3 - SOCIAL SECURITY CARD,
4 - WELFARE,
5 - FOOD STAMPS,
6 - CREDIT CARDS,
7 - SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE,
8 - FREE EDUCATION,
9 - FREE HEALTH CARE,
10 - A LOBBYIST IN WASHINGTON
11 - BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PUBLIC DOCUMENTS PRINTED IN YOUR LANGUAGE
12 - AND THE RIGHT TO CARRY YOUR COUNTRY'S FLAG WHILE YOU PROTEST THAT YOU DON'T GET ENOUGH RESPECT


I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE I HAD A FIRM GRASP ON THE SITUATION.

Hey, RLIMC, why don't you check out what happens if you cross MEXICO's border illegally? I don't know much about it, but I have seen a couple of things saying that Mexican immigration laws are extremely strict, that they have an illegal immigration problem from Guatemala, and that basically the Mexican police/immigration authorities beat the crap out of any Guatemalan illegals they find.

Seriously, I'd like to learn more about this, and if that's true, I'd like for our government to throw that right back in the face of Mexico's whining illegal immigrant enablers.