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JohnnyMack
4/16/2010, 12:31 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=10364584

Christian Music Star Jennifer Knapp Says She Is a Lesbian
By Dean Goodman
April 13, 2010

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A rising star on the Christian music scene is returning to the public eye with a new identity after a mysterious seven-year absence spent mostly on the other side of the world.

Jennifer Knapp is not only coming out with a new album, she is also "coming out," a term the Grammy-nominated singer/songwriter considers "very bizarre" as she nervously relaunches her career.

The 36-year-old Kansas native, who dated men during her college days, is braced for a backlash from religious fans who faithfully shot down whispered rumors about her sexuality over the years. On the other hand, she said in a recent interview with Reuters, "I'm definitely getting a lot more friendly winks from the girls (at her concerts) than I have in the past!"

No other singer of Knapp's renown in the Christian music genre is openly gay. In the past, the industry looked dimly on those who deviated from the straight and narrow. Radio stations and retailers quickly dropped Sandi Patty and Michael English after they admitted to (separate) extra-marital affairs during the 1990s. Amy Grant was also blacklisted when she went through a divorce later that decade. All have since been forgiven to varying degrees.

Knapp is taking a preemptive stand anyway. She has recorded a mainstream album, and is not specifically targeting Christian radio stations and retailers.

"I just wouldn't find it respectful at all to say, 'Hey, this is something that you want in your store next to your Jesus statue,'" she said. "It would just be disingenuous to try and convince someone that they needed to do that."

BORN AGAIN, AGAIN?

Still, Knapp considers herself a "person of faith" and recoils at the suggestion that she is turning her back on the church, an accusation that dogged the likes of Sam Cooke and Aretha Franklin when they left gospel for pop stardom.

As a mainstream act targeting the adult album alternative niche -- alongside the likes of U2 and fellow lesbian Melissa Etheridge -- it is suggested to Knapp that she is now born again, again.

So is she going to be accepted or is she gonna get kicked out of the clubhouse?

Breadburner
4/16/2010, 12:57 PM
Do we really care......Christian music alll sounds the same....

soonerinabilene
4/16/2010, 01:04 PM
i know it killed ray boltz career .

TUSooner
4/16/2010, 01:13 PM
Do we really care......Christian POP music all sounds the same....

True, as amended.

Bach or Handel alone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All Christian pop musicians ever

yermom
4/16/2010, 01:18 PM
She has recorded a mainstream album

:rolleyes:

Crucifax Autumn
4/16/2010, 02:33 PM
This thread is worthless without home video.

Boarder
4/16/2010, 03:09 PM
She will be shunned by many. Probably the majority. I have no doubt whatsoever.

Sooner in Tampa
4/16/2010, 04:05 PM
Christian is a broad term...is she Methodist...Lutheran (ELCA)?...those are two denominations that come to mind that won't shun her.

ELCA has ghey priests.

Veritas
4/16/2010, 04:46 PM
That makes sense given she's one of the few popular Christian musicians that doesn't suck.

yermom
4/16/2010, 04:52 PM
and the only reason i've heard of her is that now she's come out of the closet, strangely enough at the time she has a new mainstream album to promote

royalfan5
4/16/2010, 04:57 PM
Christian is a broad term...is she Methodist...Lutheran (ELCA)?...those are two denominations that come to mind that won't shun her.

ELCA has ghey priests.

And we use real bread most of the time instead of those awful wafers.

Pricetag
4/16/2010, 04:58 PM
You can't blame her for getting tired of all the myrrh records.

Chuck Bao
4/16/2010, 05:10 PM
Good for Jennifer Knapp and good for those Christian church denominations who believe that gender or sex-orientation does not bar or limit one's ability to have a direct relationship with God. They demonstrate that clearly by allowing female and openly gay members to take leadership roles.

Do you ever wonder how many of the church choir directors and youth ministers of the Love-the-sinner-Hate-the-sin denominations are secretly gay, although married with children?

yankee
4/16/2010, 06:06 PM
Christian is a broad term...is she Methodist...Lutheran (ELCA)?...those are two denominations that come to mind that won't shun her.

ELCA has ghey priests.

my church is currently with the ELCA. just held a vote a couple of weeks ago whether to break away (for the reason you listed). we needed 2/3 majority, and we got it. there's a mandatory 2nd vote if the first one passes, and 2/3 is also needed for the 2nd vote. i'm hoping we can get it too...that would be sweet.

yankee
4/16/2010, 06:07 PM
Do you ever wonder how many of the church choir directors and youth ministers of the Love-the-sinner-Hate-the-sin denominations are secretly gay, although married with children?

no, i don't...but it's a total abomination.

jkjsooner
4/16/2010, 06:22 PM
Frankly, I respect the "love the sinner hate the sin" people so much more than the "homos are evil" types.

As far as Christian music, many people know it's the easiest way to get popular and make a living and is a good shortcut to mainstream music....

Leroy Lizard
4/16/2010, 06:31 PM
Good for Jennifer Knapp and good for those Christian church denominations who believe that gender or sex-orientation does not bar or limit one's ability to have a direct relationship with God.

You have to have more than a direct relationship with God. Any of us can speak to God. You have to make an earnest effort to ask for forgiveness for your sins -- tough to do if you continue the practice.

Our views on political correctness mean nothing to God. So just because many of us find homosexual behavior acceptable, don't assume that God is okay with it. He doesn't give a rat's *** what we think.

Crucifax Autumn
4/16/2010, 06:37 PM
Don't assume he's not either. People who presume to know what God thinks are dangerously close to opening a compound outside of Waco.

Crucifax Autumn
4/16/2010, 06:42 PM
As far as Christian music, many people know it's the easiest way to get popular and make a living and is a good shortcut to mainstream music....

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3806/faith1tt0.jpg

:D

Leroy Lizard
4/16/2010, 06:48 PM
Don't assume he's not either. People who presume to know what God thinks are dangerously close to opening a compound outside of Waco.

Not true. The very act of becoming Born Again is to form such a close relationship with God that His intentions become crystal clear.

Crucifax Autumn
4/16/2010, 07:04 PM
And if some gay guy becomes born again and DOESN'T see a problem with being gay?

Leroy Lizard
4/16/2010, 07:09 PM
Was he truly born again?

Crucifax Autumn
4/16/2010, 07:10 PM
Was the guy who chooses to hate and judge?

Leroy Lizard
4/16/2010, 07:23 PM
Was the guy who chooses to hate and judge?

I'm not sure who you are targeting here. Is this a certain individual?

GottaHavePride
4/16/2010, 07:43 PM
He doesn't give a rat's *** what we think.

I also don't think he gives a rat's *** whether you're Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Taoist, Muslim, Hindu, Shinto, pagan, or atheist. ;)

Leroy Lizard
4/16/2010, 08:16 PM
I also don't think he gives a rat's *** whether you're Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Taoist, Muslim, Hindu, Shinto, pagan, or atheist. ;)

I was never under the impression that you did.

Crucifax Autumn
4/16/2010, 08:39 PM
I'm not sure who you are targeting here. Is this a certain individual?

No...I'm targeting the general type of person who judges and condemns certain groups in a totally un-Christian way rather than following the "judge not" philosophy. Someone who truly is born again understands that being hateful and judgmental is not a Christian, but rather, a total jackass.

landrun
4/16/2010, 11:36 PM
Good for Jennifer Knapp and good for those Christian church denominations who believe that gender or sex-orientation does not bar or limit one's ability to have a direct relationship with God. They demonstrate that clearly by allowing female and openly gay members to take leadership roles. ....

That's the problem. There are no such Christian denominations. Here me out here before you get offended. :) Seriously. I'm not trying to be offensive or belittle anyone or your point of view.

You can't say, "I'm a Christian and I'm gay" and make logical sense any more than saying, "I'm a die-hard Sooner fan and always pull for Texas in the Red River Rivalry" or "I'm a Democrat who always votes straight ticket Republican."

There is a logical disconnect with those statements. They simply don't make sense without changing the definition of at least one of the terms. Hence Tampa's statement about Christian being a broad term. Our culture (much like every culture in history) has tried to change the definition of Christianity as it has been since Christ lived. The only way anyone can make such statements is to first redefine what Christianity is.

As an example, show me someone who claims to be a Sooner fan and pulls for Texas in the RRR and I'll show you someone who has no idea what it is to be an OU fan. They can say I'm being judgmental or that I think I'm a better Sooner fan then they are, etc... all they want. But by definition they're not OU fans. The only way they can claim that is to come up with some new redefined idea of what being an OU fan even is. This is a silly illustration, but I think I'm making my point.

If a denomination claims to be Christian, and accepts gays as a pastor of their church, then they first have to change the classical and fundamental definition of what it even means to be Christian. And that is exactly what these sorts of denominations do. Which I don't really understand. Why would you even want to be called by a name of a historical sect that you don't agree with (and probably don't enjoy being associated with). Why do they claim any allegiance to the Bible when they obviously don't believe it?

You can say you think the Bible is a fairy tale. That's fine.
But you can't say you follow it and then reject what is clearly says without ambiguity. To say that the God of the Bible accepts homosexuality is nonsense. Even if you think the Bible is a fairy tale. Its like saying you read Little Red Robin Hood and there is no wolf in the story. You can say you think it is a fairy tale, but you can't be honest and say there's no wolf.

The Bible is indigent that homosexuality is a perversion and is evil. The last thing it is, is Christian. - unless you want to call something that is the antithesis of Christianity - Christianity.

You can claim to love God, and be gay without contradiction.
You can say you're gay and you're a spiritual person without contradiction.
But a church can't say they're Christian and approve of homosexual leadership and make any sense at all.

Thanks for listening. ;)

GKeeper316
4/16/2010, 11:48 PM
its Little Red Riding Hood, by the way.

and excellent post.

the only christians that **** me off are the ones that try to define thier own christianity. they dont get to define it. its already been defined for them.

Leroy Lizard
4/16/2010, 11:58 PM
No...I'm targeting the general type of person who judges and condemns certain groups in a totally un-Christian way rather than following the "judge not" philosophy. Someone who truly is born again understands that being hateful and judgmental is not a Christian, but rather, a total jackass.

Are you confusing the condemnation of an act with hating the individual? I am not sure I know many Christians who truly hate other individuals. They can look pretty dimly at these individuals' activities, however.

GKeeper316
4/17/2010, 12:33 AM
Are you confusing the condemnation of an act with hating the individual? I am not sure I know many Christians who truly hate other individuals. They can look pretty dimly at these individuals' activities, however.

for one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church

Leroy Lizard
4/17/2010, 12:41 AM
I think we can all agree that the Westboro Church is an aberration. I mean, c'mon.

GKeeper316
4/17/2010, 12:53 AM
they call themselves christians, do they not?

Leroy Lizard
4/17/2010, 01:20 AM
they call themselves christians, do they not?

A crow can say the words.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
4/17/2010, 02:14 AM
Do we really care......Christian music alll sounds the same....Except for Sixpence: None the Richer. Leigh Nash is superb.

Crucifax Autumn
4/17/2010, 02:14 AM
Just curious...Where in the New Testament is there an explicit banning of the gay lifestyle? Most Christians who aren't WAY out there tend to believe that the NT trumps the OT, so apparently it is possible to be a Christian and discount the old Jewish laws.

Crucifax Autumn
4/17/2010, 02:19 AM
Except for Sixpence: None the Richer. Leigh Nash is superb.

The best Christian bands (or other religions for that matter) are the bands that don't actually claim the title of "inspirational music". A normal band that has lyrics on a broad range of subjects and sometimes tell of their faith through song is much more powerful than bands that lock on to God. Great examples are the entire second half of Jethro Tull's Aqualung album, Iron Maiden's "Hallowed Be Thy Name", and uncountable others. Somehow, to me, it just comes across as more sincere than the Amy Grants and Strypers of the world.

soonerhubs
4/17/2010, 06:53 AM
So if someone believes something is a sin they are hateful and intolerant, and the best thing to do is become hateful to and intolerant of those people because of their beliefs.

"You don't believe the same way as I do, so I will marginalize you and call you names."

It's all in how you punctuate it.

swardboy
4/17/2010, 07:24 AM
Just curious...Where in the New Testament is there an explicit banning of the gay lifestyle? Most Christians who aren't WAY out there tend to believe that the NT trumps the OT, so apparently it is possible to be a Christian and discount the old Jewish laws.

Romans 1:26-28..."For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper..."

By this biblical narrative, the young woman has no standing to claim her obedience to God. Not being judgemental, just discerning...and those ARE two different biblical terms.

soonerhubs
4/17/2010, 07:28 AM
Cue the "Bible's a bronze age outdated work of literature!" crowd.

swardboy
4/17/2010, 07:32 AM
Oh...and the follow up to the above verses, Romans 1 32..."and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same but also give hearty approval to those who practice them."

I'll let you do your own discerning.....

Leroy Lizard
4/17/2010, 11:33 AM
Oh...and the follow up to the above verses, Romans 1 32..."and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same but also give hearty approval to those who practice them."

I'll let you do your own discerning.....

Ouch, Swardboy. You really know how to put the screws (pardon the expression) to the Bible revisionists.

yermom
4/17/2010, 11:56 AM
i guess it depends on which revision you are talking about

Leroy Lizard
4/17/2010, 12:13 PM
I'm not sure any of the revisions can turn the Book of Romans into a West Hollywood script.

salth2o
4/17/2010, 12:29 PM
I never understood why people feel the need to announce that they are ghey. I couldn't care less whether you like to eat ***** or suck ****.

It is funny though how this announcement coincides with an upcoming album release next month.

Leroy Lizard
4/17/2010, 12:45 PM
I never understood why people feel the need to announce that they are ghey. I couldn't care less whether you like to eat ***** or suck ****.

It is funny though how this announcement coincides with an upcoming album release next month.

Yeah, she has some issues that she is going to have to deal with if she wants to get in with God's good graces. It's up to her. But if she tries to project the message that homosexuality is acceptable, Christians will turn her out (as they should).

My Christian friends will likely have two responses:

1. She sins like we all do. I am sure she is praying for forgiveness and is willing to try her hardest to right the ship. I will buy her albums because it's the message that is important, not the messenger.

2. This is exactly how Satan operates. He has found a way to turn those who look up to her away from God. I will not buy her albums because they don't reflect the true word of God.

Leroy Lizard
4/17/2010, 12:46 PM
I never understood why people feel the need to announce that they are ghey.

"Look at me! Look at me!"

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
4/17/2010, 01:01 PM
"Look at me! Look at me!"Plus " I will join the ranks of those requiring acceptance of this lifestyle, even if it takes legislation".

JohnnyMack
4/17/2010, 01:49 PM
Plus " I will join the ranks of those requiring acceptance of this lifestyle, even if it takes legislation".

But it's ok to create legislation that would prevent equal rights. Right? That's the small government neo-con way after all.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
4/17/2010, 02:00 PM
But it's ok to create legislation that would prevent equal rights. Right? That's the small government neo-con way after all.Marriage has a definition. Ain't complicated. Exhilarating thread, JM! Fin.

GKeeper316
4/17/2010, 02:27 PM
Marriage has a definition. Ain't complicated. Exhilarating thread, JM!

if the STATE is going to involve itself in the process (by issuing marriage licenses), then the STATE cannot discriminate for any reason.

Leroy Lizard
4/17/2010, 02:32 PM
if the STATE is going to involve itself in the process (by issuing marriage licenses), then the STATE cannot discriminate for any reason.

For any reason? Like affirmative action?

JohnnyMack
4/17/2010, 03:44 PM
Marriage has a definition. Ain't complicated. Exhilarating thread, JM!

Which one is older, the concept of marriage or the concept of your particular religion?

GottaHavePride
4/17/2010, 04:18 PM
Which one is older, the concept of marriage or the concept of your particular religion?


Pretty sure the Romans got married.

tulsaoilerfan
4/17/2010, 05:04 PM
She's not all that bad looking

GKeeper316
4/17/2010, 07:21 PM
She's not all that bad looking

ill bet i could talk her into a 3-way with her g/f :P

Sooner98
4/17/2010, 10:59 PM
Just curious...Where in the New Testament is there an explicit banning of the gay lifestyle? Most Christians who aren't WAY out there tend to believe that the NT trumps the OT, so apparently it is possible to be a Christian and discount the old Jewish laws.

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God ? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God." - 1 Corinthians, 6:9-10 (NAS)

" But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted." - 1 Timothy, 1:8-11 (NAS)

"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error." - Romans 1:26-27 (NAS)

Crucifax Autumn
4/17/2010, 11:08 PM
I guess you guys have me on this one as far as it being in the NT too. for some reason I thought all the more judgmental and unforgiving stuff was in the OT, but I guess they really did slip in some of that stuff in the NT.

Any of the red, said by the man himself stuff condemn it?

And what will you all think if they nail down 100% that there truly is a gay gene and that the behavior is perfectly "natural" in the sense of they were "born that way"?

JohnnyMack
4/17/2010, 11:12 PM
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God ? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God." - 1 Corinthians, 6:9-10 (NAS)

" But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted." - 1 Timothy, 1:8-11 (NAS)

"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error." - Romans 1:26-27 (NAS)

Ummm you're quoting a version of the bible that's like 15 years old.

Leroy Lizard
4/17/2010, 11:15 PM
I guess you guys have me on this one as far as it being in the NT too. for some reason I thought all the more judgmental and unforgiving stuff was in the OT, but I guess they really did slip in some of that stuff in the NT.

Any of the red, said by the man himself stuff condemn it?

And what will you all think if they nail down 100% that there truly is a gay gene and that the behavior is perfectly "natural" in the sense of they were "born that way"?

We were all born sinners. So it won't work.

Damn good try, though.

Crucifax Autumn
4/17/2010, 11:17 PM
That's weak IMO.

Leroy Lizard
4/17/2010, 11:20 PM
Ummm you're quoting a version of the bible that's like 15 years old.

Okay, here is the King James version:


Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Same thing.

There is no doubt about it. So trying to deny what is obvious isn't going to get you anywhere.

And even if you were somehow able to mangle the Bible into your own interpretation, it still wouldn't matter. Christians have a holy union with God and he speaks to them directly. So they get it straight from the Horse's mouth.

tommieharris91
4/17/2010, 11:22 PM
Dammit, I was hoping someone would drop a line such as "States don't have to honor same sex marriages that happen in other states."

Crucifax Autumn
4/17/2010, 11:22 PM
Why do some people who have 2 way conversations with God get committed and others don't?

Leroy Lizard
4/17/2010, 11:24 PM
Why do some people who have 2 way conversations with God get committed and others don't?

Because some really don't.

Crucifax Autumn
4/17/2010, 11:26 PM
Okay, here is the King James version:



Same thing.

There is no doubt about it. So trying to deny what is obvious isn't going to get you anywhere.

And even if you were somehow able to mangle the Bible into your own interpretation, it still wouldn't matter. Christians have a holy union with God and he speaks to them directly. So they get it straight from the Horse's mouth.

First off, you'll notice that it doesn't say homosexuals in that one. Secondly, according to that the act of focking at all or beating off will send you straight to hell. Not to mention that if some guy is raised by a single mom and picks up some feminine personality, he too will go to hell.

Hell, according to that Mr. Rogers and about 1/2 of all dead preachers are in hell. :eek:

Crucifax Autumn
4/17/2010, 11:27 PM
Because some really don't.

How can you tell the difference? Is there a blood test or something?

JohnnyMack
4/17/2010, 11:38 PM
Okay, here is the King James version:



Same thing.

There is no doubt about it. So trying to deny what is obvious isn't going to get you anywhere.

And even if you were somehow able to mangle the Bible into your own interpretation, it still wouldn't matter. Christians have a holy union with God and he speaks to them directly. So they get it straight from the Horse's mouth.

Ultimately I don't really give a **** what it says in a book that's simply revised every single time it's deemed convenient and still considered canon. The way neo-cons in the US treat gays is nothing short of bigotry.

tulsaoilerfan
4/18/2010, 09:47 AM
I can't believe u people are arguing about religion and are missing the fact that she's a not too bad looking lesbian; where's all the discussion about that? ;)

Leroy Lizard
4/18/2010, 10:51 AM
First off, you'll notice that it doesn't say homosexuals in that one.

Yeah, the word hadn't been invented yet. That isn't going to let anyone off the hook.


Secondly, according to that the act of focking at all or beating off will send you straight to hell. Not to mention that if some guy is raised by a single mom and picks up some feminine personality, he too will go to hell.

When you get to the Pearly Gates, tell Saint Peter that you found the Word of God too constricting and, therefore, you shouldn't have had to abide by them.

jkjsooner
4/18/2010, 10:55 AM
I never understood why people feel the need to announce that they are ghey. I couldn't care less whether you like to eat ***** or suck ****.

It is funny though how this announcement coincides with an upcoming album release next month.

My guess is that they put so much effort into hiding their true identity - even from themselves. Plus, in many I think there is a level of shame or embarrassment until they finally accept it. Add all of this together and I think they feel the need to make it public.

Leroy Lizard
4/18/2010, 10:58 AM
Ultimately I don't really give a **** what it says in a book that's simply revised every single time it's deemed convenient and still considered canon. The way neo-cons in the US treat gays is nothing short of bigotry.

Whatever. Homosexuality is considered a sin, so how can they not view someone who openly practices it as a sinner? Should they forfeit their beliefs to curry favors from their antagonists?

Veritas
4/18/2010, 12:37 PM
Ummm you're quoting a version of the bible that's like 15 years old.
The NAS is the most accurately translated version of the Bible with respect to the original Koine Greek and Hebrew, including the KJV, which bears the influence of King James agenda and heavy oversight. Read the Basilican Doron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilikon_Doron) to get a glimpse into the mind of that nutjob.

So...yeah, in most cases I'd agree with you, but the NAS is a pretty solid English transliteration.

Frozen Sooner
4/18/2010, 01:03 PM
Dammit, I was hoping someone would drop a line such as "States don't have to honor same sex marriages that happen in other states."

OK, I'm game. They don't. Congress short-circuited a FF&C claim with DOMA, something that the Constitution seems to permit. If it gets litigated all the way to the Supreme Court, at the very least we should be treated to some pretty scathing language from Scalia and something humorous from Thomas (along the lines of "While this is a silly law, it's constitutional.")

JohnnyMack
4/18/2010, 02:21 PM
OK, I'm game. They don't. Congress short-circuited a FF&C claim with DOMA, something that the Constitution seems to permit. If it gets litigated all the way to the Supreme Court, at the very least we should be treated to some pretty scathing language from Scalia and something humorous from Thomas (along the lines of "While this is a silly law, it's constitutional.")

A sad law that the author even regrets writing.

Chuck Bao
4/18/2010, 04:12 PM
Whatever. Homosexuality is considered a sin, so how can they not view someone who openly practices it as a sinner? Should they forfeit their beliefs to curry favors from their antagonists?

You could also say the same for adulterers, gluttons (fat people?), the covetous, drunkards, those who are lazy and even those who are rich.

Does “let him who is without sin cast the first stone” ring a bell? At all?

I did not want to respond to this thread again and risk being called: “Look at me”. But, bigoted and biased comments like yours is the reason there needs to be some brave people who stand up and say "Look at me".

Besides that, we have gone over and over these points repeatedly. Although I know that I will not change anyone’s mind at SF, I do know that I have to respond to some of these posts, like the one above.

Talk about revisionism, modern day Christian churches pick out the parts that they want to take literally and ignore all of the parts that they think no longer applies to them.

If one’s sexual orientation is a litmus test for being a Christian, it seems that it would have been important enough for Jesus to have mentioned it at least once in the gospels. But, His teachings seem to be much more focused on the subject of money.

“Sell your possessions and give to the poor.” (Luke 12:33)

“You cannot serve God and Money.” (Matthew 6:24)

“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.” (Matthew 6:19)

“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” (Luke 18:25)

Concerning Paul’s writings to the churches, he didn’t think that women should speak in church (1 Timothy 2:11-12) and he didn’t think divorcees should remarry (1 Corinthians 7: 25-29, 36-40).

It seems that you claim to know what God wants. But, is this it? Are you going to take in all of the New Testament literally?

I believe in the priesthood of the believer. I do not believe that women should be considered second class in their ability to know God, understand his message and serve as leaders in the church. I also do not think anyone can tell me that I don’t know God or can’t have a relationship because of my sexual orientation.

Veritas
4/18/2010, 04:33 PM
Don't forget gossiping, Chuck, something quite popular in every church I've attended and a subject addressed much more frequently and with near-equivalent harshness in Scripture than man-on-man action.

SoonerJack
4/18/2010, 04:35 PM
The way neo-cons in the US treat gays is nothing short of bigotry.

The same thing could be said for the way some liberals treat Christians.

yermom
4/18/2010, 05:15 PM
if we only still had lion pits

those were they days

soonerhubs
4/18/2010, 05:54 PM
So if I believe something is a sin, but don't treat others differently if they are doing things that I feel are sins, does that make me a backwoods redneck?

For instance I make a covenant not to drink alcohol, but I won't judge those that do. It's not my business.

I do however feel happiness and peace in my life that I'm always open to share with others if they are interested. If they are not, I promise not to think you're a narrow minded poo-poo head.

I think most of yous are pretty good peeps. It's a shame we have to attack each other's belief systems on a regular basis.

Some of you are atheists or agnostics. Fine by me.

Some of you are protestants. Fine by me.

Some of your are other religions, and that's okay too.

Regarding homosexuality... although I believe the act is a sin (In essence I've promised not to do it), I do believe those who choose that path should be given the same rights as any other citizen of the U.S. This includes insurance, tax breaks, etc. I also would like to say, I see why some religious leaders including my own are against same-sex marriage, and I respect that stance as well.

If this artist's music is good, I'll listen to it. Regarding whether or not I'll use it to get closer to Deity... Quite frankly none of the Christian pop artists are my choice for that. I choose Mozart, Beethoven, a classic Hymnal, and, my personal favorite, the LDS Hymnal.

I'd also like to take this time to say that our current administration is cutting funding for research on marriage. Apparently it's not PC to study married people. I suppose I should write up a proposal to the current administration that describes a disease that over 70 percent of our population suffers from at least once during their lifetime, and that it may be wise to continue to study the sociological, psychological, and physiological implications of this sickness called Marriage. I can state with authority that the financial impact alone of marital stability and satisfaction on our country is enormous and substantially underestimated.

Rant over for now...

Leroy Lizard
4/18/2010, 05:59 PM
You could also say the same for adulterers, gluttons (fat people?), the covetous, drunkards, those who are lazy and even those who are rich.

Does “let him who is without sin cast the first stone” ring a bell? At all?

I did not want to respond to this thread again and risk being called: “Look at me”. But, bigoted and biased comments like yours is the reason there needs to be some brave people who stand up and say "Look at me".

Calling it bigoted means nothing. It's just an insult delivered by those that cannot distinguish between righteousness living and sin, as far as Christians are concerned. To them, God establishes standards of right and wrong, not you.

So, in your mind, you accept homosexuality. Fine. Just don't expect Christians to follow suit until you can change God's mind on this matter. Good luck on that.



If one’s sexual orientation is a litmus test for being a Christian, it seems that it would have been important enough for Jesus to have mentioned it at least once in the gospels.

There is no litmus test other than accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior and begging for forgiveness of all sins.

Those are the rules. I didn't write them. But to get into Heaven, I will have to follow them. And there is no debate here.


I believe in the priesthood of the believer. I do not believe that women should be considered second class in their ability to know God, understand his message and serve as leaders in the church. I also do not think anyone can tell me that I don’t know God or can’t have a relationship because of my sexual orientation.

You can certainly strike up a conversation with God if you wish, but if you are homosexual the Bible is very clear what his commandment will be. And you're not going to like it.

tommieharris91
4/18/2010, 06:25 PM
So if I believe something is a sin, but don't treat others differently if they are doing things that I feel are sins, does that make me a backwoods redneck?

For instance I make a covenant not to drink alcohol, but I won't judge those that do. It's not my business.

I do however feel happiness and peace in my life that I'm always open to share with others if they are interested. If they are not, I promise not to think you're a narrow minded poo-poo head.

I think most of yous are pretty good peeps. It's a shame we have to attack each other's belief systems on a regular basis.

Some of you are atheists or agnostics. Fine by me.

Some of you are protestants. Fine by me.

Some of your are other religions, and that's okay too.

Regarding homosexuality... although I believe the act is a sin (In essence I've promised not to do it), I do believe those who choose that path should be given the same rights as any other citizen of the U.S. This includes insurance, tax breaks, etc. I also would like to say, I see why some religious leaders including my own are against same-sex marriage, and I respect that stance as well.

If this artist's music is good, I'll listen to it. Regarding whether or not I'll use it to get closer to Deity... Quite frankly none of the Christian pop artists are my choice for that. I choose Mozart, Beethoven, a classic Hymnal, and, my personal favorite, the LDS Hymnal.

I'd also like to take this time to say that our current administration is cutting funding for research on marriage. Apparently it's not PC to study married people. I suppose I should write up a proposal to the current administration that describes a disease that over 70 percent of our population suffers from at least once during their lifetime, and that it may be wise to continue to study the sociological, psychological, and physiological implications of this sickness called Marriage. I can state with authority that the financial impact alone of marital stability and satisfaction on our country is enormous and substantially underestimated.

Rant over for now...

I wish all posts we're this respectful of both sides on the SO. Speaking in terms like this might get the country somewhere, instead of threats of secession and violence from both sides.

My Opinion Matters
4/18/2010, 06:39 PM
Threads like this are why Johnny Mack hates Jesus. If all I knew of Christianity was the myopic dogmatic interpretation of scripture that does nothing but promote bigotry like what's on display in this thread, I would feel the same way.

soonerinabilene
4/18/2010, 06:50 PM
C




You can certainly strike up a conversation with God if you wish, but if you are homosexual the Bible is very clear what his commandment will be. And you're not going to like it.


same thing if you look at girls cleavage in a lustful way, or watch porn, or get drunk, or get angry at your neighbor, or play the lottery, or get a tattoo, or gossip, or tell a lie, or put ANYTHING in your life in front of GOD. being gay is not the end all oof whether or not you are a Christian. if you sin at all, you are in the same position a homosexual is. and last i checked, one man lived his life sin free, and that is why every sinner can have salvation.

Leroy Lizard
4/18/2010, 07:02 PM
same thing if you look at girls cleavage in a lustful way, or watch porn, or get drunk, or get angry at your neighbor, or play the lottery, or get a tattoo, or gossip, or tell a lie, or put ANYTHING in your life in front of GOD. being gay is not the end all oof whether or not you are a Christian.

Let's go through this one more time: A Christian is one who accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior and asks for forgiveness for his sins. Those who partake in sinful behavior (such as the ones you listed above) need to beg for forgiveness. Those who engage in such behaviors and consider it acceptable are not Christians.

Most importantly, YOU do not have the power to command what is right or wrong in the eyes of God. If God commands that X is a sin, X is a sin. Whether or not it becomes popular, or hurts people's feelings, or is considered bigoted, is 100% irrelevant.

Leroy Lizard
4/18/2010, 07:05 PM
Threads like this are why Johnny Mack hates Jesus. If all I knew of Christianity was the myopic dogmatic interpretation of scripture that does nothing but promote bigotry like what's on display in this thread, I would feel the same way.

If you don't like the rules of the race, don't enter. But don't blame the people who tell you the rules. They didn't write them.

IOW, no one is going to change the rules to make Johnny Mack feel better about Christianity. This isn't a popularity contest. God has special designs for those that accept his word, and even more special designs for those that don't.

Essentially, are you in, or are you out? That is the decision each of us has to make.

My Opinion Matters
4/18/2010, 07:18 PM
How high of a horse do I need for that race, Liz?

JohnnyMack
4/18/2010, 07:23 PM
If you don't like the rules of the race, don't enter. But don't blame the people who tell you the rules. They didn't write them.

IOW, no one is going to change the rules to make Johnny Mack feel better about Christianity. This isn't a popularity contest. God has special designs for those that accept his word, and even more special designs for those that don't.

Essentially, are you in, or are you out? That is the decision each of us has to make.

In out. Way out. Religion is a sham.

Leroy Lizard
4/18/2010, 08:17 PM
In out. Way out. Religion is a sham.


Okay then.

Leroy Lizard
4/18/2010, 08:17 PM
How high of a horse do I need for that race, Liz?

As high as is commanded.

JohnnyMack
4/18/2010, 08:35 PM
Talk about revisionism, modern day Christian churches pick out the parts that they want to take literally and ignore all of the parts that they think no longer applies to them.

This.

Just keep on revising the old book every decade or so and make sure it fits your particular cultural paradigm. But I suppose that's what all religion is.

AggieTool
4/18/2010, 08:37 PM
Isn't it just amazing how fairy tales and some vague historical accounts directly impact personal or social issues?

It's like we change the way we interact with each other on a grand scale because of what an imaginary being might think about us.

....weird.:D

JohnnyMack
4/18/2010, 08:37 PM
The same thing could be said for the way some liberals treat Christians.

Show me a law that is clearly as discriminatory as the DOMA that any liberal has advanced towards the poor put upon Christians.

Leroy Lizard
4/18/2010, 08:42 PM
Isn't it just amazing how fairy tales and some vague historical accounts directly impact personal or social issues?

It's like we change the way we interact with each other on a grand scale because of what an imaginary being might think about us.

....weird.:D

Ultimately, it comes down to faith.

AggieTool
4/18/2010, 09:55 PM
Ultimately, it comes down to faith.

That would be "blind-faith". Actual faith requires a reasonable expectation based on a repeatable observation.:)

yankee
4/18/2010, 10:08 PM
Let's go through this one more time: A Christian is one who accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior and asks for forgiveness for his sins. Those who partake in sinful behavior (such as the ones you listed above) need to beg for forgiveness. Those who engage in such behaviors and consider it acceptable are not Christians.



this.

tulsaoilerfan
4/18/2010, 10:40 PM
Some people on this site just like to argue about anything

yermom
4/18/2010, 11:07 PM
If you don't like the rules of the race, don't enter. But don't blame the people who tell you the rules. They didn't write them.

IOW, no one is going to change the rules to make Johnny Mack feel better about Christianity. This isn't a popularity contest. God has special designs for those that accept his word, and even more special designs for those that don't.

Essentially, are you in, or are you out? That is the decision each of us has to make.

tell that to the Anglicans

Leroy Lizard
4/18/2010, 11:31 PM
That would be "blind-faith". Actual faith requires a reasonable expectation based on a repeatable observation.:)

Insult it however you wish; in the end, it all doesn't matter. There will be a side that was right, and a side that was wrong. All the pseudointellectual reasoning in the world won't make a bit of difference.


tell that to the Anglicans

Not sure what you mean.


Some people on this site just like to argue about anything

I think that refers to just about all of us.

yermom
4/18/2010, 11:35 PM
that's how you get new branches. someone decides they don't like something in Christianity

the king wanted a divorce. later on they liked birth control

Leroy Lizard
4/18/2010, 11:45 PM
that's how you get new branches. someone decides they don't like something in Christianity

If gays want to split and create their own church, fine. No one is going to stop them. But God isn't going to create a special set of rules for them just because they found His commandments too constricting. Again, it is not up to us to decide what is right or wrong.

Chuck Bao
4/19/2010, 01:14 AM
Let's go through this one more time: A Christian is one who accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior and asks for forgiveness for his sins. Those who partake in sinful behavior (such as the ones you listed above) need to beg for forgiveness. Those who engage in such behaviors and consider it acceptable are not Christians.

So, would you say that people who remarry after a divorce should beg God for forgiveness every day that they love their new spouse? That's basically what we are talking about here - love.

We are not talking about lusting after someone or watching porn or a raunchy movie. I am curious now. Do you really say prayers of forgiveness after committing each of these individual acts of sin, Leroy?

In contrast, I love Hubler's philosophy and always appreciate his input.

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 01:46 AM
So, would you say that people who remarry after a divorce should beg God for forgiveness every day that they love their new spouse? That's basically what we are talking about here - love.

I'm not sure divorce is even acceptable to God. To answer your question I would need to know what Scripture says about the situation you are describing. I'm not a minister so I can't rattle off Biblical verses like many others.


We are not talking about lusting after someone or watching porn or a raunchy movie. I am curious now. Do you really say prayers of forgiveness after committing each of these individual acts of sin, Leroy?

You mistake me for a devout Christian. I am not. But if I was, I would definitely ask for forgiveness if I committed these sins. I have devout Christian friends who do beg for forgiveness for such acts. Is this such a wild notion to you?

Essentially, if you're looking for permission to be a horn dog, you will probably need to get it somewhere else. God asks his followers to exercise self control and not act on urges (like shaking down Brutus at the Velvet Glove).

BTW, I realize you are trying hard to win an argument, but don't get personal. This is about God's wishes. It doesn't matter what *I* do in everyday life, for most Christians would probably frown on many of the things I do. (For example, I drink hard liquor.)

MrJimBeam
4/19/2010, 05:13 AM
That's the small government neo-con way after all.

I don't think you know what neo-con means.

MrJimBeam
4/19/2010, 05:16 AM
And what will you all think if they nail down 100% that there truly is a gay gene and that the behavior is perfectly "natural" in the sense of they were "born that way"?

"They" started working on this right after they finished convincing half the population of gobal warming.

Crucifax Autumn
4/19/2010, 07:31 AM
So a clearly measurable genetic difference or a different brain chemistry would just be discounted rather than being recognized as "how God made them"?

swardboy
4/19/2010, 07:45 AM
"...the whole creation groans for it's redemption" Collier. I would respond to your thesis that "it's genetic" that the power of Adam's sin energized the second law of thermodynamics, and entropy has been affecting the human condition as well as all of physics. Fair or not.

JohnnyMack
4/19/2010, 09:19 AM
If gays want to split and create their own church, fine. No one is going to stop them. But God isn't going to create a special set of rules for them just because they found His commandments too constricting. Again, it is not up to us to decide what is right or wrong.

You're just coming across as a hypocrite in all this. Unless of course you don't sin in the eyes of your deity.

yermom
4/19/2010, 10:47 AM
he's said multiple times he's not religious. he's just stirring up ****

TUSooner
4/19/2010, 10:56 AM
You're just coming across as a hypocrite in all this. Unless of course you don't sin in the eyes of your deity.

You really need to remember the source. LL just wants to be contrary. No argument is too frivolous for him to raise if it will yank somebody's chain. His only opinon is whichever one is not yours.

NormanPride
4/19/2010, 10:56 AM
What a ****ing surprise.

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 11:02 AM
So a clearly measurable genetic difference or a different brain chemistry would just be discounted rather than being recognized as "how God made them"?

Crucifax, I already answered your question. We are all born sinners. Having a gay gene would be no different.

God doesn't say "do what's natural." After all, the desire to have sex with multiple partners is natural to us. But that means nothing to God.

JohnnyMack
4/19/2010, 11:03 AM
You really need to remember the source. LL just wants to be contrary. No argument is too frivolous for him to raise if it will yank somebody's chain. His only opinon is whichever one is not yours.

My 3 year old does the same thing. :D

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 11:06 AM
You're just coming across as a hypocrite in all this. Unless of course you don't sin in the eyes of your deity.

Why is this all of a sudden about ME? This is about God and his commandments.

Besides, didn't I already say before that we all sin? Didn't I also say that it is repentance that truly matters?

I am sure that many of you must have never stepped inside a church. The whole notion that we are all born sinners, and that we all sin, and that we can be forgiven for our sins, seems lost on a lot of you.

Crucifax Autumn
4/19/2010, 11:07 AM
Crucifax, I already answered your question. We are all born sinners. Having a gay gene would be no different.

God doesn't say "do what's natural." After all, the desire to have sex with multiple partners is natural to us. But that means nothing to God.

So if the bible said it was a sin to have red hair you'd just buy that at face value?

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 11:09 AM
You really need to remember the source. LL just wants to be contrary. No argument is too frivolous for him to raise if it will yank somebody's chain. His only opinon is whichever one is not yours.

In other words, "Waaaah! I want homosexual behavior to be acceptable to God, but it isn't!!! And... and... and it's that damn Leroy's fault!!!"

JohnnyMack
4/19/2010, 11:09 AM
Why is this all of a sudden about ME? This is about God and his commandments.

Besides, didn't I already say before that we all sin? Didn't I also say that it is repentance that truly matters?

I am sure that many of you must have never stepped inside a church. The whole notion that we are all born sinners, and that we all sin, and that we can be forgiven for our sins, seems lost on a lot of you.

I'm just going by what your write, Skippy.

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 11:11 AM
So if the bible said it was a sin to have red hair you'd just buy that at face value?

Contrived question that goes nowhere.

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 11:12 AM
I'm just going by what your write, Skippy.

Okay, tell me what I wrote that is sooooo hypocritical.

TUSooner
4/19/2010, 11:13 AM
Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Better to forgive too much and to tolerate too much than to forgive too little and to tolerate too little.

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 11:15 AM
Better to forgive too much and to tolerate too much than to forgive too little and to tolerate too little.

That's sweet. Now explain how you are applying this in the conversation.

TUSooner
4/19/2010, 11:15 AM
In other words, "Waaaah! I want homosexual behavior to be acceptable to God, but it isn't!!! And... and... and it's that damn Leroy's fault!!!"

No no no. You have mistaken my ad hominem attack for an argument on the topic of the thread.

TUSooner
4/19/2010, 11:19 AM
That's sweet. Now explain how you are applying this in the conversation.

Don't be coy.
To paraphrase Dr. Johnson: I have provided you an argument, I am not obligated to provide you with the ability to understand it.

EDIT: What it really means, is that I'm not playing this game. As you (LL) have noted, we're all sinners. I don't think I need to be spending much time saying that yours or his or hers are worse than mine so as to condemn you or him or her and get off scot free myself.

olevetonahill
4/19/2010, 11:31 AM
So, would you say that people who remarry after a divorce should beg God for forgiveness every day that they love their new spouse? That's basically what we are talking about here - love.

We are not talking about lusting after someone or watching porn or a raunchy movie. I am curious now. Do you really say prayers of forgiveness after committing each of these individual acts of sin, Leroy?

In contrast, I love Hubler's philosophy and always appreciate his input.

Chuck, Paul in his letter to the Corinthians addressed this issue
Ist Corinthians Chapter 7 pretty much says a Christians Duties on this issue .

Tulsa_Fireman
4/19/2010, 11:34 AM
In other words, no buttsex in heaven.

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 11:39 AM
Don't be coy.
To paraphrase Dr. Johnson: I have provided you an argument, I am not obligated to provide you with the ability to understand it.

EDIT: What it really means, is that I'm not playing this game. As you (LL) have noted, we're all sinners. I don't think I need to be spending much time saying that yours or his or hers are worse than mine so as to condemn you or him or her and get off scot free myself.

Again, the basic tenet of repentance seems lost on you. We all sin. It' s whether we try not to sin, and whether we ask for forgiveness when we do, that really matters.

Probably the most basic tenet of Christianity. If you want to argue Christianity, you need to understand it. Otherwise, you're just talking out of your ***.

Tulsa_Fireman
4/19/2010, 11:41 AM
NO YOU CAN'T HOLD A WEINER IN YOUR MOUTH AND EXPECT ST. PETER (heh heh heh) TO LET YOU IN.

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 11:46 AM
But you are such a bad person for telling us this, TF.

Crucifax Autumn
4/19/2010, 11:49 AM
All this argument has taught me is that if you are gay, you just spit the weiner out a few minutes before dying and pray forgiveness.

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 12:00 PM
All this argument has taught me is that if you are gay, you just spit the weiner out a few minutes before dying and pray forgiveness.

Unfortunately for them, that probably wouldn't work, owing to the fact that God wasn't born yesterday.

Crucifax Autumn
4/19/2010, 12:06 PM
Then why do Catholics give Last Rites?

olevetonahill
4/19/2010, 12:08 PM
Cru as far as I know Death bed repentance is accepted in Most if not all Christian denominations

Now If they Sincere who knows
I dont' Only the God they are asking forgiveness from know .

Crucifax Autumn
4/19/2010, 12:13 PM
I know...I'm just going all Leroy on Leroy.

soonervegas
4/19/2010, 12:18 PM
Good thread. This is one of the main issues I have struggled with as a Christian. Are gays going to hell because they are gay?

I have many gay friends and personally I don't think I want the answer to be, "Yes". I used to argue for the "they were born gay" theory, but as I have gotten to know them better over the years and learned their histories, all of them have some messed up views on life in general. I am leaning more towards environmental factors as I get older.

Regardless, I'll just practice my little "voodoo" and let God figure it out himself.

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 12:22 PM
Then why do Catholics give Last Rites?

It's largely symbolic, I suppose. Not even Catholics would tell you that a man will go to heaven without personally repenting.

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 12:24 PM
Good thread. This is one of the main issues I have struggled with as a Christian. Are gays going to hell because they are gay?

No.

If they go to Hell, it was because they failed to acknowledge the evil of their ways and ask for forgiveness.

TUSooner
4/19/2010, 12:37 PM
Again, the basic tenet of repentance seems lost on you. We all sin. It' s whether we try not to sin, and whether we ask for forgiveness when we do, that really matters.

Probably the most basic tenet of Christianity. If you want to argue Christianity, you need to understand it. Otherwise, you're just talking out of your ***.

Just because I said nothing about repentance doesn't mean I don't recognize the concept. I just don't see what it has to do with me judging someone else. If a person sins against me, maybe I can withhold my forgiveness until the person repents. I don't think I have to withhold it. If someone sins aginst God, I can neither repent for them nor judge them for God. Reread the gospel passage I quoted about not judging others. Then stop being so obtuse and perhaps you can try to argue about that instead of just ignoring it because you have a different argument burning a hole in your pocket.

Or at least explain what the general concept of repentance has to do with me judging someone else.

But I forget your primary method of "arguing": When you see a point slipping away, you just change the subject. Hey, it's OK, because that's what this fictional internet being called "Leroy Lizard" is all about. It's even fun most of the time. But you can't expect everyone to keep playing your games when you change the rules whenever you start to lose.

AggieTool
4/19/2010, 12:55 PM
Insult it however you wish; in the end, it all doesn't matter. There will be a side that was right, and a side that was wrong. All the pseudointellectual reasoning in the world won't make a bit of difference.


Kinda reminds me of what Rome used to say about such crazy things like gravity, and physics.:D

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 12:58 PM
Just because I said nothing about repentance doesn't mean I don't recognize the concept. I just don't see what it has to do with me judging someone else. If a person sins against me, maybe I can withhold my forgiveness until the person repents. I don't think I have to withhold it. If someone sins aginst God, I can neither repent for them nor judge them for God. Reread the gospel passage I quoted about not judging others.

Under no circumstances does that passage suggest that Christians have to be accepting of a homosexual lifestyle. No way. No how.


Then stop being so obtuse and perhaps you can try to argue about that instead of just ignoring it because you have a different argument burning a hole in your pocket.

Or at least explain what the general concept of repentance has to do with me judging someone else.

But I forget your primary method of "arguing": When you see a point slipping away, you just change the subject. Hey, it's OK, because that's what this fictional internet being called "Leroy Lizard" is all about. It's even fun most of the time. But you can't expect everyone to keep playing your games when you change the rules whenever you start to lose.

I haven't changed the argument one iota. You are trying your hardest to get Christians to accept a practice they not only consider a sin but is commanded as a sin by God.

Not gonna happen!

Homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of God. No doubt about it. The Scripture is clear on this matter, and no schoolyard argument is going to change that.

Murder is a sin. But Christians cannot be expected to look the other way when someone commits a murder. In fact, they are obligated to not only point out the sinfulness of the act but to approach the individual and preach the gospel.

Christianity is not a "live and let live" religion.

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 01:00 PM
Kinda reminds me of what Rome used to say about such crazy things like gravity, and physics.:D

If you want to argue with Romans about gravity and physics, be my guest.

JohnnyMack
4/19/2010, 01:06 PM
The inherent flaw in Christianity is that it's constantly modified and has been so heavily fractured into so many sects over the past 500+ years that their seems to be very little idea left to many of us what true Christianity looks like. Groups of people have simply rewritten, reworked and reimagined the basic underpinnings to fit their own paradigm.

It's a cultural thing that all societies do. The concept of a religion and/or a deity to an indian tribe that lived 2500 years ago in what is today the western United States was a reflection of its culture just as today's Methodist sect is a reflection of its membership. Religion is crafted around the culture, not the other way around.

olevetonahill
4/19/2010, 01:10 PM
JM
The King James Version has been around since 1604
jes sayin

Crucifax Autumn
4/19/2010, 01:19 PM
I'll just be content to not judge as I don't know what the original word of God was, what the original writers interpreted wrong or made up, what changes occured in later revisions, what ancient words were mis-translated, etc.

JohnnyMack
4/19/2010, 01:19 PM
2010 - 1604 = 406. Which is within my 500 year window. :P

Crucifax Autumn
4/19/2010, 01:20 PM
There were plenty of changes, omissions, translations, and so on made outside of your window as well.

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 01:28 PM
I'll just be content to not judge as I don't know what the original word of God was, what the original writers interpreted wrong or made up, what changes occured in later revisions, what ancient words were mis-translated, etc.

Because you're not a Christian. Just don't expect Christians to follow suit

Crucifax Autumn
4/19/2010, 01:30 PM
If they are judging, then they aren't real Christians either. In fact, that just might get them sent to hell.

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 01:39 PM
If they are judging, then they aren't real Christians either. In fact, that just might get them sent to hell.

They are free to denounce acts they consider evil and tell the "evil-doers" to ask for forgiveness.

TUSooner
4/19/2010, 01:52 PM
Under no circumstances does that passage suggest that Christians have to be accepting of a homosexual lifestyle. No way. No how.



I haven't changed the argument one iota. You are trying your hardest to get Christians to accept a practice they not only consider a sin but is commanded as a sin by God.

Not gonna happen!

Homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of God. No doubt about it. The Scripture is clear on this matter, and no schoolyard argument is going to change that.

Murder is a sin. But Christians cannot be expected to look the other way when someone commits a murder. In fact, they are obligated to not only point out the sinfulness of the act but to approach the individual and preach the gospel.

Christianity is not a "live and let live" religion.

At least you you're getting at your argument in the last sentence. But I don't have to agree with all of your theological premises. In a sense Christianity IS a "live and let live" religion, or the quoted passage of the gospel has no meaning at all.

I am not a biblical literalist, but I'll assume arguendo that your interpretation of the Bible on homosexuality is correct. (Absent that assumption I suspect that 2 same-sex people in a stable relationship are no more offensive to the God of the Cross than the average randy heterosexual boy of 16.) The sexual sin is not against me but against God and the actor. (The murderer is a real threat to all, by contrast.) Regardless, I'm not going on a "queer hunt" to have every remorseless homosexual cast onto the street or into outer darkness. Neither I am going to try to sniff out all the other suspected sinners in my church whose repentance may be "inadequate" in someone's eyes.

I simply decline to judge whether a sinner has repented "adequately." It's just too hard to tell; I have trouble enough separating the black sox from the blue sox in my sock drawer, much less the sheep from the goats. On the Last Day I trust it will be better to have erred on the side of forgiveness and toleration than to have judged too much and too harshly. I'll bet on mercy every time.

Now, if you (a self-styled nonbeliever, IIRC) are insisting that, in order to be a "real" Christian, I must judge sinners and the degree of their repentance, and that I must call them out or inflict some sanction on them, then I'll simply decline to take my theology from you -- or from Glenn Beck & Fred Phelps, for that matter.

JohnnyMack
4/19/2010, 01:55 PM
much less the sheep from the goats.

Where do you keep them?

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 02:48 PM
At least you you're getting at your argument in the last sentence. But I don't have to agree with all of your theological premises. In a sense Christianity IS a "live and let live" religion, or the quoted passage of the gospel has no meaning at all.

It has meaning, just not the one you want it to have.


I am not a biblical literalist, but I'll assume arguendo that your interpretation of the Bible on homosexuality is correct. (Absent that assumption I suspect that 2 same-sex people in a stable relationship are no more offensive to the God of the Cross than the average randy heterosexual boy of 16.)

Just to be clear, Scripture clearly commands against homosexuality. There is no "for the sake of argument" here. But we go on.


The sexual sin is not against me but against God and the actor. (The murderer is a real threat to all, by contrast.) Regardless, I'm not going on a "queer hunt" to have every remorseless homosexual cast onto the street or into outer darkness.

She came out of the closet on her own. Where was the "queer hunt"?

We have a high-profile Christian singer who has now decided to announce she is homosexual. Her announcement could easily be construed as a message that homosexuality should be acceptable to Christians. Therefore, Christians have no choice to speak loud and clear that her beliefs are an abomination and an affront to Christian life. They have to do that. To do otherwise is to turn Christianity into a passive lap dog.

Has she repented adequately? Her public announcement is an affront to Christianity, so it is up to her to make it clear that, as a popular Christian singer, she will not try to lead people astray. She chose to go public with her beliefs; she needs to go public with her repentance.

If she doesn't, Christians are perfectly justified in denouncing her announcement.


Now, if you (a self-styled nonbeliever, IIRC) are insisting that, in order to be a "real" Christian, I must judge sinners and the degree of their repentance, and that I must call them out or inflict some sanction on them, then I'll simply decline to take my theology from you -- or from Glenn Beck & Fred Phelps, for that matter.

Nice twisting of my words. I never said I would judge sinners, but I can judge sin. I can tell right from wrong (in most cases). To suggest that a person cannot even hold an opinion on right/wrong is pure nonsense. We all have to.

And I never said I could judge the degree of their repentance. Again, quote me accurately.

TUSooner
4/19/2010, 03:22 PM
It has meaning, just not the one you want it to have.



Just to be clear, Scripture clearly commands against homosexuality. There is no "for the sake of argument" here. But we go on.



She came out of the closet on her own. Where was the "queer hunt"?

We have a high-profile Christian singer who has now decided to announce she is homosexual. Her announcement could easily be construed as a message that homosexuality should be acceptable to Christians. Therefore, Christians have no choice to speak loud and clear that her beliefs are an abomination and an affront to Christian life. They have to do that. To do otherwise is to turn Christianity into a passive lap dog.

Has she repented adequately? Her public announcement is an affront to Christianity, so it is up to her to make it clear that, as a popular Christian singer, she will not try to lead people astray. She chose to go public with her beliefs; she needs to go public with her repentance.

If she doesn't, Christians are perfectly justified in denouncing her announcement.



Nice twisting of my words. I never said I would judge sinners, but I can judge sin. I can tell right from wrong (in most cases). To suggest that a person cannot even hold an opinion on right/wrong is pure nonsense. We all have to.

And I never said I could judge the degree of their repentance. Again, quote me accurately.
OH... so the question was only whether Christians can denouce that particular singer. Sure, they can. I just won't do it because I don't care aboute her sexual orientation or her music. Forgive me for not reading the whole thread to chase down every meandering stream of thought. I thought we were talking more broadly about what to do about homosexuals in the church. Actually, we were, until it suited you to narrow things down again. In the broader context, my inferences from your posts were reasonable ones, and so were my responses.

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 03:31 PM
OH... so the question was only whether Christians can denouce that particular singer's announcement.

Fixed


Sure, they can. I just won't do it because I don't care aboute her sexual orientation or her music. Forgive me for not reading the whole thread to chase down all your meandering thoughts. I thought we were talking more broadly. In that context, I made only legitimate inferences from your posts.

We are talking broadly, but on that very subject.

To summarize: You cannot expect Christianity to mold itself to your way of thinking. The same goes for Christians. They have been commanded by God to live a certain way and to hold certain beliefs. They are also commanded to speak out when they see His message threatened, especially in cases where those that threaten have accumulated a great deal of public trust. Again, this is not a "live and let live religion." And if you want to be a Christian, you must be willing to toe the line.

It really isn't much more difficult than that.

TUSooner
4/19/2010, 04:00 PM
The fundamental flaw in your whole "summary" is that Christianity is what you say it is, and nothing more, and that there's no room for arguing about it. I assure you that there is PLENTY of room to argue about what Christianty is, says, or requires, even if you are one of those mythical beasts called a "biblical literalist."

Even John Wesley, indisputably a Christian, viewed scripture through the lens of tradition, reason, and experience.

JohnnyMack
4/19/2010, 04:11 PM
To summarize: You cannot expect Christianity to mold itself to your way of thinking. The same goes for Christians. They have been commanded by God to live a certain way and to hold certain beliefs. They are also commanded to speak out when they see His message threatened, especially in cases where those that threaten have accumulated a great deal of public trust. Again, this is not a "live and let live religion." And if you want to be a Christian, you must be willing to toe the line.

It really isn't much more difficult than that.

Hey Chief, how many different branches of Christianity are there? Why is it that we have different branches of Christianity if there's only one truth? I don't gets it.

AggieTool
4/19/2010, 04:41 PM
Why is it the most "un-Christ" like people tend to be Christians.:confused:

Veritas
4/19/2010, 04:48 PM
Anybody bring up yet how the early church used the Septuagint and how much of the New Testament references it, yet how it's not really counted as the "real" Bible? So...the New Testament references the wrong version of the Old Testament. Awesome.

LXX FTL.

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 05:39 PM
Hey Chief, how many different branches of Christianity are there? Why is it that we have different branches of Christianity if there's only one truth? I don't gets it.

Some value certain customs and not others. The basic tenets are the same. I have stepped into Pentacostal, Lutheran, and Baptist churches and didn't see anything different of any significance.

In other words, these different branches are more alike than different.

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 05:44 PM
The fundamental flaw in your whole "summary" is that Christianity is what you say it is, and nothing more, and that there's no room for arguing about it. I assure you that there is PLENTY of room to argue about what Christianty is, says, or requires, even if you are one of those mythical beasts called a "biblical literalist."

There is certainly Biblical scholarship. But what everyone is arguing here is an acceptance of a practice that is explicitly stated as a sin in the Bible. Furthermore, the argument is being raised for the wrong reasons. Biblical scholarship is not about trying to rationalize certain behavior because we want that behavior to be acceptable, or we don't want to hurt people's feelings.

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 05:44 PM
Why is it the most "un-Christ" like people tend to be Christians.:confused:

Loaded question.

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 05:46 PM
Anybody bring up yet how the early church used the Septuagint and how much of the New Testament references it, yet how it's not really counted as the "real" Bible? So...the New Testament references the wrong version of the Old Testament. Awesome.

LXX FTL.

And they claim that *I* meander.

Turd_Ferguson
4/19/2010, 06:30 PM
Wow...I just wasted 3 minutes of my life reading this thread and all it did was prove to me that the Mods are no longer moderating this board.

90% of the posts in this thread deserve red cards and at least 1 or 2 posters in this thread should get a day or two off to cool their heels.

Name calling...spek whining...all are being ignored lately.

And this thread, from concept through execution to fruition, was a racist piece of hate bile and didn't even have good humor to justify its existence.

Carry on. I've said all I need to say about this thread. Blech.:D

Frozen Sooner
4/19/2010, 06:34 PM
:D

I'm fairly shocked it took someone this long. Maybe I should give this person a red card for whining about moderation.

TUSooner
4/19/2010, 07:06 PM
Pope Leroy?

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 07:30 PM
Huh?

AggieTool
4/19/2010, 08:01 PM
Wouldn't it be weird if when we die, we find out that Rastafarians were the ones who had it right?

God would look like Marley and have a big doob?

Leroy Lizard
4/19/2010, 08:10 PM
Wouldn't it be weird if when we die, we find out that Rastafarians were the ones who had it right?

God would look like Marley and have a big doob?

It would suck if you're white.

AggieTool
4/19/2010, 08:30 PM
It would suck if you're white.

Ahh....

More Christ -like emanations....:D

JohnnyMack
4/19/2010, 08:46 PM
Yep. Jeebus was a honky.

Crucifax Autumn
4/19/2010, 08:48 PM
He is in the paintings so it HAS to be true!

TUSooner
4/20/2010, 08:09 AM
Pope Leroy?

Huh?

A rhetorical question only, sir. I'm outta gas on this subject. :D

Sooner in Tampa
4/20/2010, 08:24 AM
Hey Chief, how many different branches of Christianity are there? Why is it that we have different branches of Christianity if there's only one truth? I don't gets it.
JM...I am sure know this, but are being a bit of an antagonist.

There are many different "branches" of Christianity...the key is the belief that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior. Jesus was God's Son, he came to earth, died, and was buried. He rose again. He did this for our sins.

Now...there are different ways to worship, and slight differences in certain aspects of the bible and it's teachings. BUT, the bottom line is the belief in Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior.

Leroy Lizard
4/20/2010, 11:01 AM
JM...I am sure know this, but are being a bit of an antagonist.

There are many different "branches" of Christianity...the key is the belief that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior. Jesus was God's Son, he came to earth, died, and was buried. He rose again. He did this for our sins.

Now...there are different ways to worship, and slight differences in certain aspects of the bible and it's teachings. BUT, the bottom line is the belief in Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior.

Tampa, they don't understand. I don't think they ever will.

Leroy Lizard
4/20/2010, 11:04 AM
A rhetorical question only, sir. I'm outta gas on this subject. :D

So, it was just another example of a long list of ad hominem attacks on me for telling you about the beliefs of Christianity.

Okay then.

TUSooner
4/20/2010, 11:10 AM
So, it was just another example of a long list of ad hominem attacks on me for telling you about the beliefs of Christianity.

Okay then.

Except that the list of ad hominem attacks is actually very short, like 2 posts. Otherwise you are correct.

Leroy Lizard
4/20/2010, 11:20 AM
Except that the list of ad hominem attacks is actually very short, like 2 posts. Otherwise you are correct.

No, it's about every other post.

goingoneight
4/20/2010, 11:25 AM
Guards of Jesus's tomb after the "resurrection:"

"What? He said he'd be back!"

Leroy Lizard
4/20/2010, 11:57 AM
And with that, I think we can close the thread. It's been fun.

TUSooner
4/20/2010, 01:44 PM
And with that, I think we can close the thread. It's been fun.

NO, IT HASN'T !!







;)

Crucifax Autumn
4/20/2010, 04:57 PM
Buncha Godless heathens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AggieTool
4/20/2010, 09:27 PM
Buncha Godless heathens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm also an Easter Bunny-less and Santa Clause-less heathen.:D

TVKaleen
4/20/2010, 11:06 PM
Someone asked why there are so many branches of Christianity.. simple. Man was made imperfect by the original sin. Christ gives us a path to forgiveness and the fixing of this imperfection. The things that seem to be consistent are penance and Grace. Penance is not the act of asking for forgiveness. It is the act of asking for forgiveness and MEANING it. So I do not know if a deathbed convert's heart, not my job to judge; but I would seriously doubt their meaning it. God on the other hand does know their heart and I am sure He judges accordingly. And remember, a true Christian knows that he is broken. Grace is given. Not deserved. Ultimately, there will be more people who claim to be Christian than their will be people who make it to Heaven I fear.

Next, Christians are required to spread the Good News. When I witness to people and they reject the message, I leave them alone. They have been given the message, it is up to them to decide what to do with it.

Lastly, as far as the "neoCons" being biggoted against gays and such, go be Gay and Proud and an Athiest in Iran. Go ahead and be loud and vocal. Try that for a week and see how long you last. Don't like Iran? How about Syria? How about this, try to do those things in any nation ruled by Sharia law. You ought to be grateful you were born in the overall most tolerant nation on the face of the earth.

Now where is my asbestos overcoat? :D

Chuck Bao
4/20/2010, 11:38 PM
Someone asked why there are so many branches of Christianity.. simple. Man was made imperfect by the original sin. Christ gives us a path to forgiveness and the fixing of this imperfection. The things that seem to be consistent are penance and Grace. Penance is not the act of asking for forgiveness. It is the act of asking for forgiveness and MEANING it. So I do not know if a deathbed convert's heart, not my job to judge; but I would seriously doubt their meaning it. God on the other hand does know their heart and I am sure He judges accordingly. And remember, a true Christian knows that he is broken. Grace is given. Not deserved. Ultimately, there will be more people who claim to be Christian than their will be people who make it to Heaven I fear.

Next, Christians are required to spread the Good News. When I witness to people and they reject the message, I leave them alone. They have been given the message, it is up to them to decide what to do with it.

Lastly, as far as the "neoCons" being biggoted against gays and such, go be Gay and Proud and an Athiest in Iran. Go ahead and be loud and vocal. Try that for a week and see how long you last. Don't like Iran? How about Syria? How about this, try to do those things in any nation ruled by Sharia law. You ought to be grateful you were born in the overall most tolerant nation on the face of the earth.

Now where is my asbestos overcoat? :D

The first part of your post about religion was really good in my opinion. But it was betrayed by the second part which was really weak. Why tell gays that they could have been born in a muslim country and be under mulsim law? What is the point of that if you are Christian? What were you trying to say here? That gays should be happy to just be alive and not thrown down from some mountain top? Besides that, the US probably isn't the most tolerant country on the face of the earth. How about Canada, Denmark, Holland or even Thailand, as an example?

Leroy Lizard
4/20/2010, 11:45 PM
The first part of your post about religion was really good in my opinion. But it was betrayed by the second part which was really weak. Why tell gays that they could have been born in a muslim country and be under mulsim law? What is the point of that if you are Christian? What were you trying to say here? That gays should be happy to just be alive and not thrown down from some mountain top? Besides that, the US probably isn't the most tolerant country on the face of the earth. How about Canada, Denmark, Holland or even Thailand, as an example?

Here we go again.

King Barry's Back
4/21/2010, 08:32 AM
Removed as irrelevant. Price I pay for posting before reading the entire thread.

Sooner in Tampa
4/21/2010, 09:26 AM
Removed as irrelevant. Price I pay for posting before reading the entire thread.
I wish more people would do this...props to KBB

the_ouskull
4/21/2010, 09:33 AM
Frankly, I respect the "love the sinner hate the sin" people so much more than the "homos are evil" types.

As far as Christian music, many people know it's the easiest way to get popular and make a living and is a good shortcut to mainstream music....

I'm not sure "respect" is the correct word there. They're both overly preachy about something that they can't, through the course of intelligent argument, prove. The former is kinder about their prejudice than the latter, sure, but they're equally hypocritical. At least with the "homos are evil" people, you always know where you stand. With the "hate the sin" types, it's one story to you, and another when you leave... just like with many people... period - not just people of faith.

the_ouskull

soonerboomer93
4/21/2010, 10:09 AM
Why is this all of a sudden about ME? This is about God and his commandments.

Besides, didn't I already say before that we all sin? Didn't I also say that it is repentance that truly matters?

I am sure that many of you must have never stepped inside a church. The whole notion that we are all born sinners, and that we all sin, and that we can be forgiven for our sins, seems lost on a lot of you.

So would the notion that we're born sinners imply that all people are born inherently evil? Or are we just born a sinner because we can't mentally accept Jesus as our lord and saviour?

the_ouskull
4/21/2010, 10:10 AM
You can't say, "I'm a Christian and I'm gay" and make logical sense any more than saying, "I'm a die-hard Sooner fan and always pull for Texas in the Red River Rivalry" or "I'm a Democrat who always votes straight ticket Republican."

There is a logical disconnect with those statements. They simply don't make sense without changing the definition of at least one of the terms. The only way anyone can make such statements is to first redefine what Christianity is.

As an example, show me someone who claims to be a Sooner fan and pulls for Texas in the RRR and I'll show you someone who has no idea what it is to be an OU fan. They can say I'm being judgmental or that I think I'm a better Sooner fan then they are, etc... all they want. But by definition they're not OU fans. The only way they can claim that is to come up with some new redefined idea of what being an OU fan even is. This is a silly illustration, but I think I'm making my point.

If a denomination claims to be Christian, and accepts gays as a pastor of their church, then they first have to change the classical and fundamental definition of what it even means to be Christian. And that is exactly what these sorts of denominations do. Why do they claim any allegiance to the Bible when they obviously don't believe it?

You can say you think the Bible is a fairy tale. That's fine. But you can't say you follow it and then reject what is clearly says without ambiguity. To say that the God of the Bible accepts homosexuality is nonsense. Even if you think the Bible is a fairy tale. Its like saying you read Little Red Robin Hood and there is no wolf in the story. You can say you think it is a fairy tale, but you can't be honest and say there's no wolf.

The Bible is indigent that homosexuality is a perversion and is evil. The last thing it is, is Christian. - unless you want to call something that is the antithesis of Christianity - Christianity.

You can claim to love God, and be gay without contradiction. You can say you're gay and you're a spiritual person without contradiction. But a church can't say they're Christian and approve of homosexual leadership and make any sense at all.

- Did you think Colt McCoy was "an okay guy?" Were you cool with Sammy B. being friends with him?

- Are the Catholic priests that are hooking up with children homosexuals, or just perverted...? They're OBVIOUSLY Christian. I mean, it may be a perk, but NOBODY goes into a career in the cloth for the sex life.

- Do you eat meat on Friday?

- How can you sit there and say that homosexuals can't be Christians because what they do goes against the Bible? 1) They have found the "gay gene." It's not "a choice." It may be(come) a continued choice, but that's like getting pis... actually, a Mitch Hedberg joke fits really well here.


Alcoholism is a disease, but it's the only one you can get yelled at for having. "D*mn it, Otto! You're an alcoholic!" or "D*mn it, Otto! You have lupus!" One of those doesn't sound right...

Aren't Christians supposed to love all of God's creations? If God made people, and there are gay people, wouldn't logic dictate that God made gay people?

Oh, it's a choice...? Of course it is. Well, let's ignore science for a moment, even though it can be, you know, proven, and not just believed... Why would someone choose to be something that will almost 100% guarantee that their life will be an uphill struggle? They will be a social pariah in almost every setting, and they will constantly be defined by that one aspect of their personality, as if it can fully encompass the person that they are. If I was trying to tell someone about you, and said, "Oh, that Landrun. He loves message boards." Do they now know everything that there is to know about you? Are you comfortable with that being all the information that they need about you to make an educated decision regarding your hopes, dreams, etc..?

Oh, and another thing... When, exactly, did you choose to be straight? Oh, you didn't. You just ARE? Weird. I thought that sexuality was a choice. Oh, it's only HOMOsexuality that's a choice. Everything else is normal. Got it. I mean, sure homosexuality occurs in nature, too, but that's easy to ignore, right?

You're basing your opinions; your judgments regarding the validity of other human beings and your respect towards them, on a book that claims, amongst other things, that a man lived to be 900 years old, that a man lived for three days inside a "great fish," and that a snake spoke in a language understandable to humans not named Harry Potter.

To me, THAT doesn't make any sense at all.

...and don't get me started on the Noah story...

I believe almost enough of the Bible to fit into a thimble... a small one... but I still identify myself as a Christian. When you can explain to me why you believe that no other Gods exist, and your God is the only true God... then I will explain to you why I don't feel like anybody's gotten it right yet. You don't have to worship in huge groups, etc.. to believe in God; or to praise him... you only have to believe. It's about faith, not about "the show." Religion used to be about humble people, walking the Earth and spreading their word. What is it now?

People sitting up in towers, passing judgment on gays, ethnics, and those with different religious beliefs. Instead of witnessing, there's arguing. Instead of "turn the other cheek," it's, "why don't you believe what I believe, what's wrong with you?" People spending the church's money on themselves, and nobody questioning it - at least not publicly. There is very little humility in the profession of preacher nowadays, it seems.

I have faith. I don't think that we arose from a primordial ooze. Perhaps we evolved from apes... but life had to start somewhere, and that's what the atheist scientists can't figure out. They've got all the answers, to all of the questions, but the first one. Christians, on the other hand, don't have any of the answers.. but they're not "losing," either. What they believe is based on faith. It doesn't have to be proven. (Convenient...?)

-- You're a smart guy. Don't play dumb. Christians early and often ignores the Bible and its teachings to suit their own needs. How many people do you know that are sitting in church hungover every Sunday? How many people at your church have children out of wedlock? How many people there gossip; talk bad, about other people in the church, for no reason other than it's just what they do? Are those people Christians?

If you want to make a comparison, don't compare Christianity to the R.R.R. Compare it to the lottery. A bunch of people sitting around, staring at their ticket to a better life.. hoping their number gets called. If it does, then awesome! If it doesn't, then, well, you're dead then, so, I guess you, and we, will never know. Good luck!

But, even though they know the odds, they still sit in (church) front of the TV when those numbers air, bated breath - waiting. Sounds a lot like prayer to me. (And trust me, I KNOW prayer. It's been my preferred method of birth-control for YEARS now... :D)

the_ouskull

Sooner in Tampa
4/21/2010, 11:28 AM
Christians early and often ignores the Bible and its teachings to suit their own needs. How many people do you know that are sitting in church hungover every Sunday? How many people at your church have children out of wedlock? How many people there gossip; talk bad, about other people in the church, for no reason other than it's just what they do? Are those people Christians?

Ya damn right they are...Christians are not perfect, far from it. Christians are sinners just like everybody else, but ya see...the difference is that some of us recognize it and pray that we can get better.

So, if we make a mistake we should just stop attending church? Well, I got drunk on Tuesday so I may as well not even bother going to church on Sunday.

There has only ever been one perfect person on this earth...His name is Jesus.

Now, if you choose believe, that is your choice. Freedom of religion...or lack thereof, but don't chastise those that do believe...it makes you sound like a judgement prick!

Frozen Sooner
4/21/2010, 11:33 AM
http://lissa10279.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/alanis-morissette-picture-1.jpg

the_ouskull
4/21/2010, 01:01 PM
Ya damn right they are...Christians are not perfect, far from it. Christians are sinners just like everybody else, but ya see...the difference is that some of us recognize it and pray that we can get better.

So, if we make a mistake we should just stop attending church? Well, I got drunk on Tuesday so I may as well not even bother going to church on Sunday.

There has only ever been one perfect person on this earth...His name is Jesus.

Now, if you choose believe, that is your choice. Freedom of religion...or lack thereof, but don't chastise those that do believe...it makes you sound like a judgement prick!

So it's about wanting to be better, but not actually doing anything to get yourself there? Hmm... sounds like Catholicism to me. And, if my tone comes across as one of chastise, then perhaps you should think about why...

All I'm asking you to do is question your faith in "the old ways" in a modern society. It's not about wandering the hillside in robes anymore, man... but a LOT of different people can be "good" people without believing in the God of the Old, or the Jesus of the New, Testament. But, even according to the scripture, "good works" aren't enough to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. So, why be good on Earth at all? If all you have to do is ask Jesus into your heart before you die, then why not live as you choose? I mean, it's not like they're going to go back on what they said, about forgiving you. It's kind of the basis for the faith and all.

I can understand why people feel like I may be attacking them. Don't get me wrong. It hasn't been an easy road for me, either... wondering if a faith into which I've put 30+ years is even "real," but it's a road that people NEED to walk. If your significant other asks you why you love them, you'd sure as sh*t better have a good answer. How many people can come up with a good, a "real" answer as to why they love God?

- He's just always there for me.
- He's so great.
- He's just God.

Those sound like the answers that get guys slapped.

- She's just always there for me.
- She's so great.
- She's just her.
- She's so pretty, etc...

Man, I don't care what people believe, but 1) I don't want it forced down my throat, and 2) since it's forced down my throat anyway, I don't see a problem with trying to get people to question not only their beliefs, but their reasons for them. Do YOU believe that someone lived to be 900? Do YOU believe that someone lived in a "great fish" for three days? Etc, etc... 'cause I don't. Period. I just don't. With today's medicines, etc... 100 is a reach for all but the slimmest number of people... If you swallowed a minnow, do you think it could live inside of you for three days?

Yes, I know. Miracles. Riiiight.

The real miracle, to me, is not Christianity, but the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. He preached all of the things that we, as people, should strive to do, and to be... except for not believing in college football, and that whole "no sex before marriage" thing. It's when people start surrounding themselves, presumably to re-affirm, or attempt to strengthen, their own faith, with other believers, eventually, the reason you're all there gets lost in the fact that you're all there, so you need to do something...

I know. Sing.
I know. Get yelled at for an hour.
I know. Confession.

Whatever happened to silent prayer, and quiet reflection? Why does the modern world even need preachers, for that matter...? The reason that people preached back then was, 1) "the word" was new, and not written down, and 2) illiteracy. Many people did not know how to read. (I also hypothesize that that's why religion remains so big in the South, but that's a sociological argument, not a religious one...) They had to have someone give them the word. But, that's not the case nowadays. (Entirely...) I mean, it's not first-grade stuff, but the Bible's not that hard to follow, either. Most people can read it. Why do you need someone to remind you, weekly, what it says? Are they there to focus your prayers? To remind you of particular passages?

Anyway... THOSE are my issues, man. Too many people caught up in why they are what they are, and they've lost sight of what what they are really means. (That was a LOT of "w"-words. D*mn.) Like I said, I identify myself as a Christian.. but at this point, it's mainly 'cause I don't know what else to call myself. I don't think we came from the primordial ooze. I believe in Intelligent Design. I don't care for organized religion. "Good" comes in a lot of shapes and sizes. I may be a d*ck to people on the internet, but I still help old ladies with their groceries. Que sera sera.

the_ouskull

TUSooner
4/21/2010, 03:17 PM
I'll just toss this out there again and see who all it baffles or offends. It's simple, but far from easy.



Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

stoops the eternal pimp
4/21/2010, 04:31 PM
My 1/2 a cent..

I know all the verses about not judging and reading them in context with the chapters, it seems to be about not judging people when you yourself are doing the same thing they are doing or worse...speck in their eye, plank in your eye etc...

But there are scriptures that talk about judging a right way...in John 7 somewhere...Jesus talks about judging not according to appearance but righteously.....also a few verses in the gospel about confronting people in sin, which would take a judgment decision...also in timothy, it talks about people rebuking and correcting, and encouraging..(2nd timothy chapter 4).....

but right or wrong, Im sure every person has heard, seen, or been told every point of view concerning homosexuality in this thread...and the bible tells us that each one of us has to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling..

and if you can't say in love, according to the bible, keep it to yourself

Leroy Lizard
4/21/2010, 04:55 PM
So would the notion that we're born sinners imply that all people are born inherently evil? Or are we just born a sinner because we can't mentally accept Jesus as our lord and saviour?

What freakin' difference does it make?

Leroy Lizard
4/21/2010, 04:57 PM
I'll just toss this out there again and see who all it baffles or offends. It's simple, but far from easy.

Well, it doesn't baffle or offend me. I don't know how others feel.

picasso
4/21/2010, 10:53 PM
Good for Jennifer Knapp and good for those Christian church denominations who believe that gender or sex-orientation does not bar or limit one's ability to have a direct relationship with God. They demonstrate that clearly by allowing female and openly gay members to take leadership roles.

Do you ever wonder how many of the church choir directors and youth ministers of the Love-the-sinner-Hate-the-sin denominations are secretly gay, although married with children?

It depends Chuck. Openly gay leadership roles in church are iffy if you're laying pipe all over the place.
Call me crazy but that's probably not setting a good example, in liberal or stuffy churches alike.
I wonder how many of the church choir directors and youth ministers of the Love-the-sinner-Hate-the-sin denominations are secretly gay, although married with children but truly wish they weren't actually gay.

See, we can play this game many different ways.

SCOUT
4/21/2010, 11:24 PM
- How can you sit there and say that homosexuals can't be Christians because what they do goes against the Bible? 1) They have found the "gay gene." It's not "a choice." It may be(come) a continued choice, but that's like getting pis... actually, a Mitch Hedberg joke fits really well here.


I really don't mean to pick one bit out of this whole thread, but I was not aware that they actually found the "gay gene." I know that there is research in that area, but I wasn't aware that there was a conclusion. Is this true?

Crucifax Autumn
4/21/2010, 11:30 PM
Not sure about the gene, but they did find physiological differences in the brain, the brain chemistry, and some brainwave function.

Chuck Bao
4/22/2010, 12:20 AM
It depends Chuck. Openly gay leadership roles in church are iffy if you're laying pipe all over the place.
Call me crazy but that's probably not setting a good example, in liberal or stuffy churches alike.
I wonder how many of the church choir directors and youth ministers of the Love-the-sinner-Hate-the-sin denominations are secretly gay, although married with children but truly wish they weren't actually gay.

See, we can play this game many different ways.

We can indeed play this game many different ways.

First of all, picasso, kudos for your colorful description of "laying pipe all over the place". It made me laugh. I would assume that those openly gays in leadership roles in churches are in committed relationships and not going out and humping on anyone who can legally buy a drink in a bar. Yeah, it is easy for heterosexual men to mistakenly think that, with the male sex drive, gay sex is candy everyday if you want it. For some, it is. For others, it is false and empty gratification when they just want to feel a belonging and a sense of family and love and, yes, spiritual love. Personally, I have been looking for that my whole life.

I don’t doubt that the vast majority of gays wish that they weren’t gay. Picasso, you were so right in changing my statement there. That goes exactly to the point about choice. I wish. I wish. I wish. But, it is just not happening for me.

I never intended to come out on this board, but accidentally screwed up on talking about a US visa for my life partner, Nope. It was not a “look at me” type of dealio. Since I am already outed, I got to say that there are people who are responsible, caring adults who are in committed relationships who can be true to themselves while seeking God’s love.

Picasso, maybe, you can give a Native American perspective. I have many books on Native American spirituality. My books seem to indicate a respect for the sexually ambiguous and I think they largely use the term “two-spirit” now and no longer the term “Berdache” which was derived from derogatory European languages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit

This is one of my books that directly talks about Native American culture – The Spirit and the Flesh – Sexual Diversity in American Indian Culture.

http://www.amazon.com/Spirit-Flesh-Diversity-American-Culture/dp/0807046159/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271913329&sr=1-3

Chuck Bao
4/22/2010, 12:39 AM
Some of you may ask why I brought up Native American spiritual beliefs in a Christian thread. I do have Native American hertiage but I can't prove it, as I assume many of you posting here also have. I believe in the priesthood of the believer and I believe that that encompasses our distant ancestors who did not have the chance to hear the good news of Christ's birth, death and resurrection.

Leroy Lizard
4/22/2010, 03:57 AM
We can indeed play this game many different ways.

First of all, picasso, kudos for your colorful description of "laying pipe all over the place". It made me laugh. I would assume that those openly gays in leadership roles in churches are in committed relationships and not going out and humping on anyone who can legally buy a drink in a bar. Yeah, it is easy for heterosexual men to mistakenly think that, with the male sex drive, gay sex is candy everyday if you want it. For some, it is. For others, it is false and empty gratification when they just want to feel a belonging and a sense of family and love and, yes, spiritual love. Personally, I have been looking for that my whole life.

I don’t doubt that the vast majority of gays wish that they weren’t gay. Picasso, you were so right in changing my statement there. That goes exactly to the point about choice. I wish. I wish. I wish. But, it is just not happening for me.

I never intended to come out on this board, but accidentally screwed up on talking about a US visa for my life partner, Nope. It was not a “look at me” type of dealio. Since I am already outed, I got to say that there are people who are responsible, caring adults who are in committed relationships who can be true to themselves while seeking God’s love.

If they are seeking the Christian God's love, they know what they have to do. There is no ambiguity.

Yes, they may not be seeking partners outside of their relationship, and that's all good. But until they seek forgiveness for their sins, Scripture leaves no doubt as to what will happen.

Now, if they want to go shopping for another religion that will approve of homosexual relationships, fine. But don't expect Christianity to knuckle under. It cannot and should not.

TUSooner
4/22/2010, 07:46 AM
If they are seeking the Christian God's love, they know what they have to do. There is no ambiguity.

Yes, they may not be seeking partners outside of their relationship, and that's all good. But until they seek forgiveness for their sins, Scripture leaves no doubt as to what will happen.

Now, if they want to go shopping for another religion that will approve of homosexual relationships, fine. But don't expect Christianity to knuckle under. It cannot and should not.

Legit question: Are you a Christian? I was under the impression that you were not, but I don't recall how I got that impression.

TUSooner
4/22/2010, 08:13 AM
My 1/2 a cent..

I know all the verses about not judging and reading them in context with the chapters, it seems to be about not judging people when you yourself are doing the same thing they are doing or worse...speck in their eye, plank in your eye etc...

But there are scriptures that talk about judging a right way...in John 7 somewhere...Jesus talks about judging not according to appearance but righteously.....also a few verses in the gospel about confronting people in sin, which would take a judgment decision...also in timothy, it talks about people rebuking and correcting, and encouraging..(2nd timothy chapter 4).....

but right or wrong, Im sure every person has heard, seen, or been told every point of view concerning homosexuality in this thread...and the bible tells us that each one of us has to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling..

and if you can't say in love, according to the bible, keep it to yourself

I recognize that Jesus was not saying "Anything goes"; I believe what he said was consistent with "Do unto others." But I'm confident he was warning against the merciless and hypocritical self-righteousness of the Pharisees, and showing a much better attitude to live by. I'm afraid that many Christians - despite their lip-service to Grace - have more in common with the Pharisees than with Jesus. A Jesuit priest once advised, "The only sin Jesus really refused to tolerate was hypocrisy." Not sure about that, but I think that as soon as we begin to have confidence in our own righteousness, we start to slip away from the grace and truth that actually blesses. Sin abounds, in thought and words as well as acts, I doubt anyone can keep track of all their own sins so as be be sure they have gotten them all neatly confessed and absolved (to talk a bit like a Catholic). It's certainly even more vain and foolish to try to keep track of someone else's! That's why it's so sweet that grace abounds all the more.

stoops the eternal pimp
4/22/2010, 08:58 AM
I don't keep up with mine, nor would I attempt to keep up with others..Good post TU...I'm not sure about what that priest said either but he did have an issue with it..and the one thing the bible says that he does hold against us is that he forgives and forgets sins, but he remembers when we don't forgive others...

JohnnyMack
4/22/2010, 10:14 AM
If they are seeking the Christian God's love, they know what they have to do. There is no ambiguity.

Yes, they may not be seeking partners outside of their relationship, and that's all good. But until they seek forgiveness for their sins, Scripture leaves no doubt as to what will happen.

Now, if they want to go shopping for another religion that will approve of homosexual relationships, fine. But don't expect Christianity to knuckle under. It cannot and should not.

http://bitchspot.jadedragononline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Were-Going-to-Hell.jpg

Skysooner
4/22/2010, 10:19 AM
One nice thing about having grown up through church and ultimately rejecting it all to become agnostic that none of the above really worries me anymore. Thanks for the entertainment.

the_ouskull
4/22/2010, 10:52 PM
I'm not a doctor, but I'd say that ^^^ that's about the best post we could possibly hope to end this thread on.

the_ouskull

Leroy Lizard
4/22/2010, 11:19 PM
One nice thing about having grown up through church and ultimately rejecting it all to become agnostic that none of the above really worries me anymore. Thanks for the entertainment.

Such a philosopher.