Basicall all of Poland's military and civilian leaders dead

[sooner59]

Plane crash on the way to commemorate a massacre....97 dead.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_russia_plane_crash

[Okla-homey]

Plane crash on the way to commemorate a massacre....97 dead.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_russia_plane_crash

Too bad. srsly. Life lesson: If you are going to fly in >20-year-old aircraft, make sure said aircraft is well-maintained and your flight crew is proficient.

[GottaHavePride]

And you're not trying to land in heavy fog without the benefit of ILS.

[Leroy Lizard]

And don't pile all of your leaders in one plane.

[sooner59]

And don't pile all of your leaders in one plane.

That's what I was thinking.

[Leroy Lizard]

I wouldn't mind seeing our political leaders all pile into one plane.

[yermom]

:O

[Curly Bill]

No crap, why couldn't something like this happen to us?

[yermom]

ok, why would the Russians kill 22,000 Polish officers in 1940???

weren't they both fighting Germany?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

ok, why would the Russians kill 22,000 Polish officers in 1940???

weren't they both fighting Germany?I think that was a separate little aggression that Stalin had.

[Harry Beanbag]

ok, why would the Russians kill 22,000 Polish officers in 1940???

weren't they both fighting Germany?


You should brush up on your WWII history, specifically the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and then Operation Barbarossa. There was some time in between the two.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

[yermom]

wow, i guess i never heard that much about that stuff. what a bunch of *******s

i never quite understood why Churchil, et, al. didn't trust the Russians even before the war was over

[GKeeper316]

I think that was a separate little aggression that Stalin had.

ya that guy was a dickhead.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

ya that guy was a dickhead.Good for you!

[olevetonahill]

Poland = http://www.billfrymire.com/gallery/webJpgs/broken-eggs-basket-diversify.jpg

[soonerscuba]

No crap, why couldn't something like this happen to us?Seriously, it would be totally awesome if people died and children were orphaned because you didn't like their politics. Maybe if we're lucky, Hillary Clinton could get ovarian cancer, what a hoot that would be.

[jkjsooner]

No crap, why couldn't something like this happen to us?

pathetic post

[Ardmore_Sooner]

I see some here arent familiar with sarcasm...

[Leroy Lizard]

Seriously, it would be totally awesome if people died and children were orphaned because you didn't like their politics.

Well... you can put the kids on the plane too.

Just kidding.

[Scott D]

wow, i guess i never heard that much about that stuff. what a bunch of *******s

i never quite understood why Churchil, et, al. didn't trust the Russians even before the war was over

Hell, if Hitler had just kept his eyes westward instead of looking east and getting Napoleon-syndrome, the Soviets would have likely been one of the Axis.

[SicEmBaylor]

ok, why would the Russians kill 22,000 Polish officers in 1940???

weren't they both fighting Germany?

No, in fact, Russia joined Germany in the invasion of Poland in 1939. They split the country into German and Soviet zones similar to the way we split Germany at the end of the war. Plus, historically, the Russians have always oppressed the Polish.

[Scott D]

I heard a rumor that rlimc was endorsing all of those leaders in their upcoming elections.

[Curly Bill]

pathetic post

Hey cardigan-boy. Will it hurt your feelers if I tell you how little I give a damn about what you think? :D

[Curly Bill]

...and Scuba, you too. ;)

[Harry Beanbag]

Hell, if Hitler had just kept his eyes westward instead of looking east and getting Napoleon-syndrome, the Soviets would have likely been one of the Axis.


The war would have been nearly unwinnable for the Allies if that would have happened. You could also probably add Berlin, Moscow, Leningrad and a few others to the list of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[JohnnyMack]

Hell, if Hitler had just kept his eyes westward instead of looking east and getting Napoleon-syndrome, the Soviets would have likely been one of the Axis.

Hitler didn't have the resources to wage a war against Russia, much less wage a two sided conflict. I always thought he would have had more success turning west, ignoring the soviets and hammering the Brits at Dunkirk and then focusing on smashing the UK.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Hell, if Hitler had just kept his eyes westward instead of looking east and getting Napoleon-syndrome, the Soviets would have likely been one of the Axis.

Actually Hitler tried to get Japan to attack from the other side so Russian factories out of Germany's bombing range could be attacked by Japan. However, the Japanese wanted to focus on America so it never happened. If it would have Russia would have fallen.

[SicEmBaylor]

Actually Hitler tried to get Japan to attack from the other side so Russian factories out of Germany's bombing range could be attacked by Japan. However, the Japanese wanted to focus on America so it never happened. If it would have Russia would have fallen.

And, by the same token, we put a lot of pressure on Russia to declare war on Japan but they didn't do it until the last days of the war.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

The war would have been nearly unwinnable for the Allies if that would have happened. You could also probably add Berlin, Moscow, Leningrad and a few others to the list of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.And you think America suffers from a guilt complex now! Try to imagine the American left if we had A-bombed those additional cities.

[Harry Beanbag]

And, by the same token, we put a lot of pressure on Russia to declare war on Japan but they didn't do it until the last days of the war.


Which had a lot more to do with Japan surrendering than the atomic bombs did. The Soviets scared the crap out of Japan, and the Allies for that matter.

[MR2-Sooner86]

The Soviets scared the crap out of Japan, and the Allies for that matter.

Unless your name was Patton ;)

[SicEmBaylor]

Unless your name was Patton ;)

This is true.

Just after the surrender when Patton was on occupation duty there was a dispute with the Soviets over some matter or another. I think it had something to do with the exact line dividing 3rd Army and the Soviet lines. Anyway, this Soviet commander came over to Lucky Forward (Patton's HQ) to bitch and complain about the matter. Patton sat there silently and then, in front of the Soviet General, picked up the phone and called his chief of artillery and told them (in no uncertain terms) that if the Soviets didn't stay within their lines to start shelling their position within half an hour. The Soviet General turned white and shagged his *** back over to his lines. That ended the dispute. :D

[Leroy Lizard]

Which had a lot more to do with Japan surrendering than the atomic bombs did. The Soviets scared the crap out of Japan, and the Allies for that matter.

Not quite.


To strive for the common prosperity and happiness of all nations, as well as the security and well-being of Our subjects, is the solemn obligation which has been handed down by Our Imperial Ancestors, and which We lay close to heart. Indeed, We declared war on America and Britain out of Our sincere desire to ensure Japan's self-preservation and the stabilization of East Asia, it being far from Our thought either to infringe upon the sovereignty of other nations or to embark upon territorial aggrandizement. But now the war has lasted for nearly four years. Despite the best that has been done by everyone--the gallant fighting of military and naval forces, the diligence and assiduity of Our servants of the State and the devoted service of Our one hundred million people--the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest. Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is indeed incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should We continue to fight, it would not only result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization. Such being the case, how are We to save the millions of Our subjects; or to atone Ourselves before the hallowed spirits of Our Imperial Ancestors? This is the reason why We have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the Joint Declaration of the Powers. -- Emporer Hirohito

Clearly the bomb weighed heavily on Hirohito's decision. In fact, the U.S. armed forces represented the bigger threat because of their ability to strike Japan with a huge bomber fleet from Okinawa. Also, the U.S. had staged numerous amphibious operations and showed they could invade by sea. The Soviet Union possessed no such capability.

Soviet declaration of war meant that Japan would not be able to transfer millions of soldiers to the mainland to defend against a U.S. invasion, which is probably what bothered Hirohito more than anything else.

And then there was the bomb. Two bombs, two cities. What leader could ever hope to win in such a situation?

[Harry Beanbag]

Not quite.



Clearly the bomb weighed heavily on Hirohito's decision. In fact, the U.S. armed forces represented the bigger threat because of their ability to strike Japan with a huge bomber fleet from Okinawa. Also, the U.S. had staged numerous amphibious operations and showed they could invade by sea. The Soviet Union possessed no such capability.

Soviet declaration of war meant that Japan would not be able to transfer millions of soldiers to the mainland to defend against a U.S. invasion, which is probably what bothered Hirohito more than anything else.

And then there was the bomb. Two bombs, two cities. What leader could ever hope to win in such a situation?


The USSR had agreed to enter the war against Japan three months after Germany surrendered, which they did. Between August 8 and August 16, the Soviets obliterated the Manchurian based million man Kwantung army, a chapter that most people don't know about. Those soldiers that you talked about transferring back to the home islands no longer existed.

It was not an accident that we dropped the bombs when we did, August 6 and 9, in an effort to end it before the Soviets entered the picture. We did not want a repeat of what was happening to eastern Europe. Russians are constantly seeking a warm water port, and once they got part of Japan they would have never left. They did get Sakhalin Island back though.

[Leroy Lizard]

The USSR had agreed to enter the war against Japan three months after Germany surrendered, which they did. Between August 8 and August 16, the Soviets obliterated the Manchurian based million man Kwantung army, a chapter that most people don't know about. Those soldiers that you talked about transferring back to the home islands no longer existed.

When the war ended the Kwantung Army still numbered 600,000 troops. But I'm not sure how Japan would have got them home without them becoming mincemeat to our submarines.

[Harry Beanbag]

When the war ended the Kwantung Army still numbered 600,000 troops.


Yep, in Soviet POW camps. That is how many surrendered after ~80,000 were killed in just over a week of futile resistance.

[Leroy Lizard]

No, I think there were 600,000 troops still available. I don't believe the entire Kwantung Army surrendered.

[MrJimBeam]

I bet the KGB had something to do with the plane going down. Did anyone see ole Putin out "touring" the crash site? All somber and everything. Bastard. Anybody seen Lech Walesa? The Soviets are probably still pissed at him. Hope he's not next.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Those damn Russian airliners are falling out of the sky all the time. Can't they afford to buy a 747 or an Airbus to fly their leaders around in?

[Harry Beanbag]

No, I think there were 600,000 troops still available. I don't believe the entire Kwantung Army surrendered.

Not sure why you believe that.



The final commander in chief of the Kwantung Army, General Otozo Yamada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otozo_Yamada), ordered a surrender on August 16, 1945, one day after Emperor Hirohito announced the defeat of the Japanese empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan) in a radio announcement. Some Japanese divisions refused to surrender, and combat continued for the next few days. Marshal Hata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunroku_Hata) received "Ultimatum to surrender" from Soviet General Georgii Shelakhov (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Georgii_Shelakhov&action=edit&redlink=1)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwantung_Army#cite_note-militera.lib.ru-4)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwantung_Army#cite_note-5) in Harbin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbin) on August 18, 1945.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwantung_Army#cite_note-militera.lib.ru-4) He was one of the senior generals who agreed with the decision to surrender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan), and on August 19, 1945, Hata had talks with Marshal Aleksandr Vasilevsky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Vasilevsky),[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwantung_Army#cite_note-6) but asked that he be stripped of his title of Field Marshal in atonement for the Army’s failures in the war.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwantung_Army#cite_note-7)

The remnants of the Kwantung Army either lay dead on the battlefield or were on their way to Soviet Prisoner-of-war camps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner-of-war_camp). Over five hundred thousand of Japanese prisoners of war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_POW_in_the_Soviet_Union) were forced to work as slave labor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_labor) in Soviet labor camps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_camp) in Siberia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia), Russian Far East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Far_East) and Mongolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolia). They were largely repatriated, in stages, over the coming five years, though some continued to be held well into the 1950s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwantung_Army

[Leroy Lizard]

Not sure why you believe that.

I must have read it somewhere.

I have a question: What was Hirohito's fear of the Soviet Army? Sure, they were quite capable of taking Asia from him, but that was a lost cause anyway. Clearly he had home defense mostly on his mind, so why worry about the Russians?

I have never quite understood that.

[SicEmBaylor]

I must have read it somewhere.

I have a question: What was Hirohito's fear of the Soviet Army? Sure, they were quite capable of taking Asia from him, but that was a lost cause anyway. Clearly he had home defense mostly on his mind, so why worry about the Russians?

I have never quite understood that.

There was still a lot of bad blood over the Russo-Japanese War.

[SoonerProphet]

Maybe it was because the Bolsheviks liked to shoot royals.

[Harry Beanbag]

Maybe it was because the Bolsheviks liked to shoot royals.

This. The true reasons behind his "sacred decision" will never be known, but one theory is that surrendering to the U.S. and Britain was purely a matter of self preservation.

Japan made secret overtures to the Soviets during the summer of 1945 for them to broker a peace deal with the USSR, despite the fact they already had a non-aggression treaty. They even held out hope that the Soviets would join them in fighting the United States and Britain. Stalin strung them along for months, all the while shifting 40+ divisions from Europe to the Manchurian border. When 1.5 million Soviets started barreling through the Japanese Manchurian army it sealed Japan's fate. Stalin wanted Hokkaido at least, surrendering before the Soviets landed on the Japanese home islands prevented that. As much as the Japanese hated Americans, they were terrified of what the Soviets would do to them.

[Leroy Lizard]

There was still a lot of bad blood over the Russo-Japanese War.

Sure, but there was even more bad blood over the American-Japanese War. I don't see the connection.

[Leroy Lizard]

Maybe it was because the Bolsheviks liked to shoot royals.

That assumes that the Bolsheviks would have been able to capture the royals. How would they have done that?

[SicEmBaylor]

That assumes that the Bolsheviks would have been able to capture the royals. How would they have done that?

Where would they have gone? It wasn't in their nature to retreat or flee. Hirohito wouldn't have fled.

As an aside, we should have executed him.

[Harry Beanbag]

That assumes that the Bolsheviks would have been able to capture the royals. How would they have done that?


Are you being deliberately obtuse?

[Leroy Lizard]

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Well, how were they planning on doing it?

We had the most amphibious training of any armed forces and the equipment to carry it out. And we were contemplating horrific losses and even the possibility of failure. So exactly how were the Russians planning on stepping on foot in Japan?

I doubt the Russians would have bothered. Once they captured the seaports in eastern Siberia, what else would they have needed?

[Harry Beanbag]

Well, how were they planning on doing it?

We had the most amphibious training of any armed forces and the equipment to carry it out. And we were contemplating horrific losses and even the possibility of failure. So exactly how were the Russians planning on stepping on foot in Japan?

I'm guessing the same way they landed on Sakhalin Island. The Soviets didn't care about horrific losses if you know anything about WWII.



I doubt the Russians would have bothered. Once they captured the seaports in eastern Siberia, what else would they have needed?

Now I know you're either joking or hopelessly ignorant.

[Leroy Lizard]

I'm guessing the same way they landed on Sakhalin Island. The Soviets didn't care about horrific losses if you know anything about WWII.

True, but the island was only defended by one division, a far cry from attacking Japan proper.

To me, I find it amazing that Japan would have worried more about the Russians than the Americans. We flew two planes over Japan and wiped out two major cities. They couldn't have known we were temporarily out of bombs. For all they knew, we had dozens. One bomb would have sent Hirohito to his ancestors quite easily.

[Scott D]

Once again, you're talking about two nations that have a mindset of having very very LONG memories. There'd been hostilities between the two nations more than a few times prior to WWII. And based upon the purging that Stalin was willing to do in his own country, what kind of atrocities do you think he would have unleashed on a country that had been viewed as a mortal enemy for well over half a century?

[Leroy Lizard]

Once again, you're talking about two nations that have a mindset of having very very LONG memories. There'd been hostilities between the two nations more than a few times prior to WWII. And based upon the purging that Stalin was willing to do in his own country, what kind of atrocities do you think he would have unleashed on a country that had been viewed as a mortal enemy for well over half a century?

We blew two cities to smithereens. Wiped them off the face of the earth. If you're Hirohito, what other atrocities would you need?

[Scott D]

Considering that the cities were still standing, in an apocalyptic sense, and not all of the residency died right away...I'm sure the outright slaughter of people, the rounding up of some and creating gulag style labor camps to work prisoners to death while ignoring the Geneva Convention in a blatant manner, the direct execution of the entire Royal family. The latter being the most likely devastating part psychologically for the Japanese people based on their belief system and the myth around the the status of the Emperor.

[Leroy Lizard]

Considering that the cities were still standing, in an apocalyptic sense, and not all of the residency died right away...I'm sure the outright slaughter of people, the rounding up of some and creating gulag style labor camps to work prisoners to death while ignoring the Geneva Convention in a blatant manner, the direct execution of the entire Royal family. The latter being the most likely devastating part psychologically for the Japanese people based on their belief system and the myth around the the status of the Emperor.

We proved to the Emperor that we were not squeamish about employing whole-sale slaughter techniques to win a war. Remember, in his view we dropped the bomb on civilian populations. What kind of impression did that make on him?

Go back to his radio address. He applied the adjective "cruel" to the tactics of only one group of people: us.

[Harry Beanbag]

Go back to his radio address. He applied the adjective "cruel" to the tactics of only one group of people: us.


He was surrendering to us. I would wager that the Japanese people didn't even know what was going on in Manchuria at that moment. I would also guess, could be wrong, that he had some help making his statements. The Japanese surrender was not "unconditional", like many people believe, but it was "conditional". Truman preferred to end the war before the Soviets got in too deep, and before invading Japan which would cost the lives of perhaps a million American soldiers, possibly my grandfather, and tens of millions of Japanese citizens. But he would have ended it one way or the other.

If you want to get right down to it, nuking two Japanese cities was tantamount to a tickle compared to what they had done in China.

I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

[Leroy Lizard]

I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

If you feel that way, then shut the hell up. No one is forcing you to respond to me.

[Harry Beanbag]

http://www.wutsamada.com/comix/igbliss.jpg

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Wow. Don't be a :chicken:smoker.