It was bound to happen

[Leroy Lizard]

The cry to provide free health care for illegal aliens will now begin:


Health care reform leaves out illegal immigrants

(AP) — Paula Medrano shifts uncomfortably on the doctor's examination table, holding out a wrist inflamed and swollen by arthritis. The 78-year-old has no health insurance, lives below the federal poverty level, and can't pay for the medication she needs.

Just days before her appointment, President Barack Obama signed, with much fanfare, a historic bill to extend health care access to 32 million currently uninsured people. But Medrano and her daughter, Juana Aguirre, barely paid attention.

"It's a great thing, but it's not for us," said Aguirre.

Medrano is an undocumented immigrant — one of the 7 million uninsured people living in the United States who were explicitly excluded from the legislation, according to estimates by the Congressional Budget Office.

The question of whether to extend coverage to illegal immigrants was so politically contentious that, under the approved legislation, they will not even be able to buy health insurance in the newly created purchasing pools called exchanges if they pay entirely out of their own pocket.

Proponents of reducing immigration believe that allowing illegal immigrants access to health care is an incentive for them to come, and an unfair tax burden on Americans.

Although the approved legislation explicitly excludes undocumented immigrants from participating in the exchanges, there is no foolproof way of verifying their documentation to keep them out, said Yeh Ling-Ling, executive director of Alliance for a Sustainable USA.

They will also continue to have access to emergency medical assistance.

"It is not fair on struggling Americans," said Yeh.

What is clear is that as the ranks of the uninsured diminish, immigrants like Medrano will continue to patch together health care as they can — at health centers such as Fresno's Clinica Sierra Vista, at hospital emergency rooms, or through programs like Healthy San Francisco, which offers universal health care to all who live in the city.

"We have to be very creative — not asking for labs unless it's really essential, working with generics, working with drug companies, giving them samples," said Juan Carlos Ruvalcaba, the doctor seeing Medrano at Clinica, which charges on a sliding scale of $40 to $70, depending on the patient's ability to pay.

Once an undocumented immigrant himself, Ruvalcaba was able to become a citizen and attend medical school because of an amnesty program in 1986. He remains committed to serving all patients, no matter their insurance or immigration status, but there is only so much he can do, he said.

He was able to give Medrano the drugs she needed, but he asked, "What happens when they need a specialist? What if they end up in the emergency room, and end up with a big bill?"

Some who work with this population are afraid that with the focus shifting onto providing care for the newly insured, those shut out of the system will be forgotten, left to fend for themselves with even fewer resources.

Illegal immigrant won't be the only uninsured left: about 16 million Americans are estimated to remain outside the health care system even after access is expanded over the next few years, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

This includes those who opt out, who don't know how to enroll, or who are exempted from the health insurance requirement because they can't afford the premiums, even with a subsidy.

For these patients, there will indeed be fewer options as doctors, hospitals and other providers increase their caseload to take in new patients bearing insurance, said Dan Hawkins, who is charged with policy and research at the National Association of Community Health Centers.

"There will be greater concentration of care for the uninsured in fewer places," Hawkins said.

Community health centers, the lynchpin of the safety net system now caring for the medically underserved, whether they are immigrants or citizens, will remain one of the places where people like Medrano will be able to see a doctor at an affordable cost.

Federally qualified clinics got a substantial funding boost through the health reform package.

They will get $11 billion in new funding over the next five years, which will allow them to double the number of patients they see, from 20 million a year now to 40 million people a year by 2015.

Most of these new patients will come bearing new insurance cards, or be part of the larger pool qualifying for Medicaid. But among them will be illegal immigrants, said Hawkins.

"Health centers will continue to be open to everyone regardless of their ability to pay, undocumented immigrants and everyone else," he said. "We don't know how many of the uninsured we serve right now are undocumented. But we do know a health center is a better, and less expensive, place for them to get that care."

[Veritas]

I guess we'd better grant them all amnesty so they can be covered.

[JLEW1818]

what sick leaders we have

[TenkillerSooner]

Yet another round of amnesty all while continuing the halfassed/ do nothing approach to border security with Mexico will not set well with most Americans. If they try and ram something like this through without addressing border security FIRST or AT THE SAME TIME it will cause an outrage across this country that will make the healthcare issue seem like it was a group hug IMO. This B.S. of blanket amnesty every 20-30 years isn't going to cut it.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

http://www.filmfetish.com/wp-stuff/fetish_uploads/2009/11/kickassposter2full.jpg

[GKeeper316]

i say no to illegal aliens getting my health cares.

the only people entitled to reap any benefit from this new system are those that pay taxes imo.

[Leroy Lizard]

Benefit? Benefit?!?!

Thanks, but our government has done enough for us already.

[GKeeper316]

Benefit? Benefit?!?!

Thanks, but our government has done enough for us already.

ya benefit.

insurance companies can no longer drop people because thier care becomes too expensive and people can no longer be denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions.

imo its worth it just for those 2 things right there, and they are beneficial.

[TenkillerSooner]

In the end I'm really not opposed to one last round of amnesty as I don't see any other choice but continuing the open border policy while doing so is insane.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

In the end I'm really not opposed to one last round of amnesty as I don't see any other choice but continuing the open border policy while doing so is insane.

I don't know what you mean by open border policy. They quadrupled the $$ and number of border patrol since Clinton. It now costs $3000 to get smuggled across the border, whereas in the early 90's you could be delivered to LA for only $600. And in the 80's you could talk your way across the border for free if you could speak English -- no ID required. They'd ask something like, "Where did you go to high school?" or "Who was the first president of the United States?" And if you could comprehend and answer it, they'd wave you across the border.

Today, those without the $3000 smuggling fee can try to sneak across the Arizona desert, but the majority don't make it. Much harder than 20 or 30 years ago.

The border is more difficult to cross today than at any time in U.S. history.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

If we just dissolve the Border Patrol and US Customs offices along the border, we could save a lot of money. Granting citizenship to all in the provinces bordering the USA could produce a lot of tax revenue to produce more government jobs, and improve the economy.

[Leroy Lizard]

ya benefit.

insurance companies can no longer drop people because thier care becomes too expensive and people can no longer be denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions.

imo its worth it just for those 2 things right there, and they are beneficial.

Gee, and it's all free. It sure is swell of the government to give us sooooo much.

[unbiasedtruth]

you know LL you ought to pay a visit to Parkland Hospital in Dallas or John Peter Smith Hospital in Ft. Worth and their emergency rooms. IAs have been receiving free health care for years at these 2 hospitals at the expense of the taxpayers of ths country.....

oh and for what its worth.... I know several doctors that volunteer their time, service and medical materials to clinics in poverty stricken areas of Dallas, Ft. Worth, Tulsa....

[Leroy Lizard]

you know LL you ought to pay a visit to Parkland Hospital in Dallas or John Peter Smith Hospital in Ft. Worth and their emergency rooms. IAs have been receiving free health care for years at these 2 hospitals at the expense of the taxpayers of ths country.....


Then why would they want health insurance?

[jkjsooner]

Then why would they want health insurance?

Excluding these people from the exchanges simply means that they won't have insurance and we will pay for their trips to the emergency room. We should actually encourage them to pay for insurance.

I'm not saying that out of sympathy for the illegal immigrants. I'm saying it because it could be cost beneficial for us.

[Jello Biafra]

I don't know what you mean by open border policy. They quadrupled the $$ and number of border patrol since Clinton. It now costs $3000 to get smuggled across the border, whereas in the early 90's you could be delivered to LA for only $600. And in the 80's you could talk your way across the border for free if you could speak English -- no ID required. They'd ask something like, "Where did you go to high school?" or "Who was the first president of the United States?" And if you could comprehend and answer it, they'd wave you across the border.

Today, those without the $3000 smuggling fee can try to sneak across the Arizona desert, but the majority don't make it. Much harder than 20 or 30 years ago.

The border is more difficult to cross today than at any time in U.S. history.


i can only hope this post is a joke. you DO realize it is illegal to enter this country without going through a process right?

my point is, they shouldn't be TRYING at all. i don't give a shiite that they have a dying grand mother and 14 kids. that's neither our fault nor our burden to carry.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

i can only hope this post is a joke. you DO realize it is illegal to enter this country without going through a process right?

my point is, they shouldn't be TRYING at all. i don't give a shiite that they have a dying grand mother and 14 kids. that's neither our fault nor our burden to carry.

Not a joke, but a serious question: what does he mean by "open border policy?"

Of course I realize our black market of labor is filled with illegal activities.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

i say no to illegal aliens getting my health cares.

the only people entitled to reap any benefit from this new system are those that pay taxes imo.


You do realize that most of the people that will receive subsidies in the new system pay no taxes don't you?

[Leroy Lizard]

Excluding these people from the exchanges simply means that they won't have insurance and we will pay for their trips to the emergency room. We should actually encourage them to pay for insurance.

Even if they were included in the plan they would still not pay because they don't make enough. We will end up subsidizing them regardless.

[OklahomaTuba]

I'm not worried, Obama said my insurance premiums will be going down, and I will get even better health care than before, so I believe him.

I mean, he's kept every other promise he's made (http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MzI4MjQ3Mzk4MWJkNDkwNWZlYzcwNDA3NmQyNmIxYmI=), so why not?????

[Leroy Lizard]

You do realize that most of the people that will receive subsidies in the new system pay no taxes don't you?

Which is why this is truly a socialist program.

[landrun]

Excluding these people from the exchanges simply means that they won't have insurance and we will pay for their trips to the emergency room. We should actually encourage them to pay for insurance.

I'm not saying that out of sympathy for the illegal immigrants. I'm saying it because it could be cost beneficial for us.

We should treat them, then throw them in jail for years and make them work for the state till they pay their bill off. Then deport them when they get out and let them know the next time they come back illegally it will be a 10 year sentence in addition to paying in medical bills they owe.

This illegal immigration problem really isn't that difficult to solve if we really wanted to.

[Crucifax Autumn]

I'm just glad I can finally get that breast reduction surgery.

[Curly Bill]

Open season on illegals! There, illegal alien problem solved! :D

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I'm just glad I can finally get that breast reduction surgery.


And have that tattoo of Juanita removed while you're at it.

[Jello Biafra]

We should treat them, then throw them in jail for years and make them work for the state till they pay their bill off. Then deport them when they get out and let them know the next time they come back illegally it will be a 10 year sentence in addition to paying in medical bills they owe.

This illegal immigration problem really isn't that difficult to solve if we really wanted to.

good with the exception of....how much does it cost to jail someone? how much does a bullet cost?

[Curly Bill]

good with the exception of....how much does it cost to jail someone? how much does a bullet cost?

Bullets = less expensive than jail. That's why my solution is perfect. ;)

You could sell special tags like with some hunting seasons -- it'd actually be a moneymaker.

[GKeeper316]

Which is why this is truly a socialist program.

ok... which form of socialism?

there's many different socialistic models, and im curious to know which one exactly this new health care bill falls under.

please inform me.

[delhalew]

good with the exception of....how much does it cost to jail someone? how much does a bullet cost?

Remember how hard amma was to find for a while.
While they are in jail they make bullets to be used by ciizens stationed at the boarder. Irony kicks ***.

[JLEW1818]

"YES WE CAN AMERICA.......and mexico, and all u worthless people on welfare who reproduce when u can't even afford to live!!!!"

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

ok... which form of socialism?

there's many different socialistic models, and im curious to know which one exactly this new health care bill falls under.

please inform me.PDX, soonerscuba, one of you guys ought to take him up on his inquiry.

[Curly Bill]

PDX, soonerscuba, one of you guys ought to take him up on his inquiry.

GKeeper is probably a troll for one of them already. I accused him of being an LAS troll, but no response on that front so far. :D

[Leroy Lizard]

ok... which form of socialism?

there's many different socialistic models, and im curious to know which one exactly this new health care bill falls under.

please inform me.

It doesn't have to fall exactly under any single model. It can fall under multiple models; it could fall under no existing model.

[TenkillerSooner]

Not a joke, but a serious question: what does he mean by "open border policy?"

Of course I realize our black market of labor is filled with illegal activities.

Should have said " basically an open border policy" my mistake.

[TenkillerSooner]

What we have done for decades has not worked of course. My opinion, seal the border using the military immediately and get a handle on the flow of people first, then talk amnesty/quick path to citizenship.

[King Barry's Back]

Excluding these people from the exchanges simply means that they won't have insurance and we will pay for their trips to the emergency room. We should actually encourage them to pay for insurance.

I'm not saying that out of sympathy for the illegal immigrants. I'm saying it because it could be cost beneficial for us.



Uh oh. Here's the rationale for opting in the illegals. This is the first time I've heard this, but I bet it won't be the last.

They've got, what, four years, until the new "exchanges" kick in? That's plenty of time to bombard us with pro-immigration propaganda.

[King Barry's Back]

I'm just glad I can finally get that breast reduction surgery.

Yeah, I am wondering if that penis reduction I've been dreaming of will finally be funded.

Poor girls. They've been complainin' for years.

Maybe now Obama really will do something for his country...

[King Barry's Back]

good with the exception of....how much does it cost to jail someone? how much does a bullet cost?

Bullets are cheap. Gov't buys them in bulk and reaps the discount.

Really, is that the best you got?

[King Barry's Back]

ok... which form of socialism?

there's many different socialistic models, and im curious to know which one exactly this new health care bill falls under.

please inform me.

Dammit. That is four posts in a row. Why do you make me do this?

Not sure exactly what your background is, or why it is that you are so well informed to believe that there are "models" of various forms of socialism.

However, there are not. Even if such contraptions exist in theory, in practice government decision makers are pretty pragmatic and what gets implemented in real life is really more attuned to political realities/limitations than to socialistic ideals.

In fact, socialist systems are usually defined as economic/political systems where the government controls the productive sectors, and distributes the "profits" (which under socialism are usually pretty small) and products to "the people" (which under socialism usually means the influential and well-connected.)

Based on my understanding of the Obamacare legislation -- the President doesn't technically nationalize much of the healthcare industry. However, by undermining the private insurance industry, and creating mandates that will make PROVIDING private medical care MORE EXPENSIVE, while requiring that CHARGING for such care be LESS -- he has created a system that will inevitably lead to more and more of the medical/health care industry in the US coming under greater govt regulation and then outright govt take over. Sometimes take over by the feds, but more often take over by the various state governments. (I foresee it some cases as a "bailout" type of thing, where a huge insurance pool is on the verge bankruptcy and gives up to a buy out by state/fed regulatory bodies.)

But I am not an expert on healthcare, and am one of the very few Americans who have not read the whole bill, so I could be wrong.

[Leroy Lizard]

Based on my understanding of the Obamacare legislation -- the President doesn't technically nationalize much of the healthcare industry. However, by undermining the private insurance industry, and creating mandates that will make PROVIDING private medical care MORE EXPENSIVE, while requiring that CHARGING for such care be LESS -- he has created a system that will inevitably lead to more and more of the medical/health care industry in the US coming under greater govt regulation and then outright govt take over.

Just like he's doing with the school system. I think they call it "creeping socialism." Which is exactly how it works.

[olevetonahill]

I don't know what you mean by open border policy. They quadrupled the $$ and number of border patrol since Clinton. It now costs $3000 to get smuggled across the border, whereas in the early 90's you could be delivered to LA for only $600. And in the 80's you could talk your way across the border for free if you could speak English -- no ID required. They'd ask something like, "Where did you go to high school?" or "Who was the first president of the United States?" And if you could comprehend and answer it, they'd wave you across the border.

Today, those without the $3000 smuggling fee can try to sneak across the Arizona desert, but the majority don't make it. Much harder than 20 or 30 years ago.

The border is more difficult to cross today than at any time in U.S. history.

Im with you jaun , Im pissed about how much the pot has gone up to. Dayum it, it still should be just as easy to smuggle a few Lbs of da weed as it is a few Wet backs.:rolleyes:

[jkjsooner]

Uh oh. Here's the rationale for opting in the illegals. This is the first time I've heard this, but I bet it won't be the last.

They've got, what, four years, until the new "exchanges" kick in? That's plenty of time to bombard us with pro-immigration propaganda.

Hold on a minute. I'm not saying we should give a single cent of subsidy to the illegals. Why don't you actually analyze what I wrote instead of assuming that I'm spreading some sort of pro-immigration propoganda.

I've been an outspoken proponent of our country's right to set and enforce whatever immigration policy we deem to be in the best interest of our country so don't try to portray me as some sort of pro-illegal immigrant supporter.

What I'm saying is that it's actually in our financial best interest to allow them to buy services from the exchanges. From what I hear, almost all insurance companies will move to the exchanges which means these people will no longer be able to buy insurance if they want to. That means when they go to the emergency room there's an even bigger probability that we'll be paying their bills.

I also recognize that there might be something about the exchanges that I don't understand like the subsidy structure is integrally tied into the exchange. If something like that is true then I'd love to be corrected. I'd also love to discuss this topic without trying to win some left/right peeing contest.

[Jello Biafra]

Bullets are cheap. Gov't buys them in bulk and reaps the discount.

Really, is that the best you got?

i really couldnt care less except i think the little beeners should be following the letter of the law. it should be like walking into someones back door late at night. "this is my house, you walked in the doorway late at night, i used a sawed-off double barrel shotgun on your dumbazz" the end.


as it stands, the taco benders are currently jumping fences by the truck loads in anticipation of the POSSIBILITY of free health care. brought to you by the tax paying public...gracias gringo.

[Leroy Lizard]

What I'm saying is that it's actually in our financial best interest to allow them to buy services from the exchanges. From what I hear, almost all insurance companies will move to the exchanges which means these people will no longer be able to buy insurance if they want to. That means when they go to the emergency room there's an even bigger probability that we'll be paying their bills.

They can't afford to buy it. So once we allow them to buy it, and they show they cannot, we will end up having to buy it for them.

And if you can't see this happening, then you haven't been living in this country very long.

[jkjsooner]

They can't afford to buy it. So once we allow them to buy it, and they show they cannot, we will end up having to buy it for them.

And if you can't see this happening, then you haven't been living in this country very long.

I didn't say that this won't happen. I didn't address that issue at all. Whether or not we allow them to buy from the exchanges has nothing at all to do with this unless you are asserting that that is a step in the direction towards subsidizing their healthcare. I don't think that is the case. Either we're going to cave to them or not and allowing them to buy from an exchange has no impact on whether we do or not.

[Leroy Lizard]

I didn't say that this won't happen. I didn't address that issue at all.

This is called a lack of forward thinking, which has placed us in one mess after another.


Whether or not we allow them to buy from the exchanges has nothing at all to do with this unless you are asserting that that is a step in the direction towards subsidizing their healthcare. I don't think that is the case.

Based on? (Certainly not history.)

It all makes logical sense if you're a Democrat. Subsidize their health care to attract more of them so that they can raise voting Democrats. It's perfect for them.

Or, make them citizens. Then, make them part of the plan. And since they cannot pay because they don't make enough, then what?

Seriously, then what? They cannot afford it, but they have to have it. So what else could you do other than subsidize them?

[jkjsooner]

This is called a lack of forward thinking, which has placed us in one mess after another.



Based on? (Certainly not history.)

It all makes logical sense if you're a Democrat. Subsidize their health care to attract more of them so that they can raise voting Democrats. It's perfect for them.

Or, make them citizens. Then, make them part of the plan. And since they cannot pay because they don't make enough, then what?

Seriously, then what? They cannot afford it, but they have to have it. So what else could you do other than subsidize them?


I hope that isn't addressed to me because I didn't say anything about making them citizens.

The only thing that we have disagreed on is whether or not allowing them to buy into a full priced / unsubsidized plan on the exchange will increase the odds of ultimately leading to a point where we subsidize their insurance.

I could be wrong and allowing them to buy into a plan makes it easier to take that step. I don't mind debating that as long as we're debating what the other person is saying instead of putting words in each other's mouths or making incorrect assumptions about motives.

[Leroy Lizard]

The only thing that we have disagreed on is whether or not allowing them to buy into a full priced / unsubsidized plan on the exchange will increase the odds of ultimately leading to a point where we subsidize their insurance.

If they can't pay, then how can they get the insurance if you don't subsidize them?

[King Barry's Back]

Hold on a minute. I'm not saying we should give a single cent of subsidy to the illegals. Why don't you actually analyze what I wrote instead of assuming that I'm spreading some sort of pro-immigration propoganda.

jkj -- I apologize the misunderstanding. I didn't mean to imply that you were spreading propaganda.

But I understand that my reply certainly made it look that way, so I will say that I am sorry.

What I was/am saying is that your argument, and similar arguments, are going to be used ad nauseum now to support enlarging/expanding/strenghtening whatever left-wing proposal du jour needs a political boost.

In this case -- "Let's give more free stuff to illegals because it will save us money! Yippee!"

In fact, this is one reason that I believe the GOP was so strongly opposed to Obamacare to begin with.

In Europe now, NO politician with a serious plan to cut taxes and reduce govt spending would get anywhere in an election -- because taxes are so high that people can not save any money, and so they are completely reliant on govt handouts to live/retire.

Therefore, if Mr Politico A proposed reduced taxation, Ms Politico B would immediately respond "But that will undermine our pension system, and where will you be when you retire?"

That is the kind of ammo that the Dems will have at their disposal, if/when, they get Obamacare implented.

"Don't cut taxes, that would reduce YOUR chances for that rare cancer treatment. Low taxes might kill you."

We'll see more of this.

[King Barry's Back]

They can't afford to buy it. So once we allow them to buy it, and they show they cannot, we will end up having to buy it for them.

And if you can't see this happening, then you haven't been living in this country very long.

Wait a minute, Leroy. I think you've got this wrong.

As I understand it, if you can't afford to buy insurance, you are subject to a tax fine to be imposed by the IRS.

Then by extension, if you don't pay the IRS, don't they show up and put your butt behind bars?

And, if they are going to exempt people who "can't afford" insurance, who gets to decide who that is?

[jkjsooner]

If they can't pay, then how can they get the insurance if you don't subsidize them?

When did I say that we should give those who can't pay insurance? I said it might not be advisable to lock out illegals who can pay the full price of their insurance.

[Leroy Lizard]

When did I say that we should give those who can't pay insurance?

The whole point of this thread (and the news story) was that there will be a movement to make sure EVERYONE gets health insurance. The first step will be to make them eligible. Then they will become entitled.

Health insurance will become like food stamps. And subsidized loans.

[Leroy Lizard]

Wait a minute, Leroy. I think you've got this wrong.

As I understand it, if you can't afford to buy insurance, you are subject to a tax fine to be imposed by the IRS.

Then by extension, if you don't pay the IRS, don't they show up and put your butt behind bars?

And, if they are going to exempt people who "can't afford" insurance, who gets to decide who that is?

I'm not sure how this works. We could ask one of our Congressman, but I don't think any of them have read the bill.

[Leroy Lizard]

jkj -- I apologize the misunderstanding. I didn't mean to imply that you were spreading propaganda.

But I understand that my reply certainly made it look that way, so I will say that I am sorry.

What I was/am saying is that your argument, and similar arguments, are going to be used ad nauseum now to support enlarging/expanding/strenghtening whatever left-wing proposal du jour needs a political boost.

In this case -- "Let's give more free stuff to illegals because it will save us money! Yippee!"

In fact, this is one reason that I believe the GOP was so strongly opposed to Obamacare to begin with.

In Europe now, NO politician with a serious plan to cut taxes and reduce govt spending would get anywhere in an election -- because taxes are so high that people can not save any money, and so they are completely reliant on govt handouts to live/retire.

Therefore, if Mr Politico A proposed reduced taxation, Ms Politico B would immediately respond "But that will undermine our pension system, and where will you be when you retire?"

That is the kind of ammo that the Dems will have at their disposal, if/when, they get Obamacare implented.

"Don't cut taxes, that would reduce YOUR chances for that rare cancer treatment. Low taxes might kill you."

We'll see more of this.

Government handouts are like meth. Just one squirt in the veins and you want more and more. And you can't get off them.