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View Full Version : Hmmm, hating Jews for just being Jewish is the same as priests humping little boys?



Collier11
4/2/2010, 03:32 PM
Pope's preacher: Accusations akin to anti-Semitism
AP


VATICAN CITY – At a solemn Good Friday service, Pope Benedict XVI's personal preacher said allegations that the pontiff covered up sex abuse cases by Catholic clergymen reminded him of the "more shameful aspects of anti-Semitism."

Within hours, a Vatican spokesman sought to distance the pope from his preacher's remarks after both Jews and a leading abuse victims group reacted sharply, criticizing the comparison with violence that culminated in the Holocaust to the accusations made against Benedict.

The Vatican has been on the defensive in recent days, saying the church has been singled out and collectively stereotyped for the problem of pedophilia, which it says is a society-wide issue.

Good Friday is a particularly delicate day in a decades-long effort by Jews and Catholics to overcome a legacy of mistrust. Particularly harmful to the relations was the long-held Catholic belief that Jews were collectively responsible for executing Christ. A landmark achievement of the Second Vatican Council of the 1960s was a declaration stating the Jews should not be blamed for the crucifixion.

As the pope listened in a hushed St. Peter's Basilica, the Rev. Raniero Cantalamessa likened accusations against the pontiff and the Catholic church in sex abuse scandals in Europe, the U.S. and elsewhere to "collective violence" suffered by the Jews.

Benedict, 82, looked weary as he sat near the central altar at the early evening prayer service.

Cantalamessa, in his reflections for the pope on the Catholic church's most solemn day, said he was inspired by a letter from an unidentified Jewish friend who was upset by the "attacks" against Benedict.

Jews "know from experience what it means to be victims of collective violence and also because of this they are quick to recognize the recurring symptoms," said Cantalamessa, a Franciscan priest.

Quoting from the letter, Cantalamessa said his Jewish friend was following "with indignation the violent and concentric attacks against the church, the pope and all the faithful of the whole world."

"The use of stereotypes, the passing from personal responsibility and guilt to a collective guilt remind me of the more shameful aspects of anti-Semitism," he said, quoting from the letter.

The Rev. Federico Lombardi, a Vatican spokesman, later contacted The Associated Press and said Cantalamessa wasn't speaking as a Vatican official when he compared "attacks'" on the pope to "collective" violence against Jews.

Such parallelism can "lead to misunderstandings and is not an official position of the Catholic church," Lombardi said, adding that Cantalamessa was speaking about a letter from a friend who lived through a "painful experience."

Benedict didn't speak after the homily but chanted prayers in a tired voice. He leaned up to remove a red cloth covering a tall crucifix, which was passed to him by an aide. He took off his shoes, knelt and prayed before the cross.

Two hours later, Benedict, wearing a red cloak in the breezy night, knelt in silent prayer at the Colosseum as he watched the faithful carry a tall crucifix in Rome's traditional torchlit Way of the Cross procession that commemorates Christ's suffering and death. Thousands of people clutching prayerbooks and candles crowded around the ancient arena.

Victims say Benedict — both as a former archbishop of Munich and later as a Vatican cardinal directing the Holy See's policy on handling abuse cases — was part of a culture of cover-up and confidentiality basically devised to protect church hierarchy.

Cantalamessa's likening the accusations to the Holocaust rankled U.S. Jewish leaders.

"Shame on Father Cantalamessa," said Elan Steinberg, vice president of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors and their Descendants, in a statement. "The Vatican is entitled to defend itself, but the comparison with anti-Semitic persecution is offensive and unsustainable. We are sorely disappointed."

Rabbi Gary Greenebaum, who said he recently had "cordial" talks at the Vatican with church and other Jewish leaders as part of efforts on both sides to improve Catholic-Jewish relations, sounded dismayed.

"It's an unfortunate use of language to make this comparison, since the collective violence against the Jews resulted in the death of 6 million, while the collective violence spoken of here has not led to murder and destruction, but perhaps character assault," said Greenebaum, U.S. director of interreligious relations for the American Jewish Committee.

German Jewish leader Stephan Kramer described Cantalamessa's remarks as unheard-of "insolence."

"It is repulsive, obscene and most of all offensive toward all abuse victims as well as to all the victims of the Holocaust," said Kramer, general secretary of Germany's Central Council of Jews, in an interview with the AP in Berlin.

Painful memories of the strained relations between the two religions were raised earlier in Benedict's papacy, when he favored a revival of the pre-Vatican Council version of the Tridentine Mass, which includes a prayer for the conversion of Jews.

Cantalamessa in his sermon said there was no need to dwell on the scandals. He referred to the sexual abuse of children by clergy, saying "unfortunately, not a few elements of the clergy are stained" by the violence. Still, he said, "there is sufficient talk outside of here."

A vocal U.S.-based victims lobby, SNAP, reacted scathingly to the sermon.

"It's heartbreaking to see yet another smart, high-ranking Vatican official making such callous remarks that insult both abuse victims and Jewish people," said David Clohessy of Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests. "It's morally wrong to equate actual physical violence and hatred against a large group of innocent people with mere public scrutiny of a small group of complicit officials."

"The Catholic hierarchy has engaged in and still engages in widely documented, self-serving and ongoing cover-ups of devastating clergy sex crimes. That's why church records are being disclosed, predator priests are being exposed and Catholic officials feel besieged."

The Rev. Thomas Reese, an expert on the Vatican based at Georgetown University in Washington, also criticized Cantalamessa's homily as "not helpful."

"You know, you wish that people in the Vatican had at least some idea of how what they say will be perceived by an audience outside of the Vatican clergy," he said.

Reese added that it's important to note that the Vatican spokesman distanced the pope from Cantalamessa's comments and that the homily did acknowledge children have been abused by priests.

While Cantalamessa delivered his ringing defense of the pontiff, the church in Benedict's native Germany made the unusually frank admission that it failed to help victims of clerical abuse because it wanted to protect its reputation.

Archbishop Robert Zollitsch, head of the German bishops' conference, said clerics neglected helping victims because of a "wrongly intended desire to protect the church's reputation."

Crucifax Autumn
4/2/2010, 03:34 PM
Both are shameful and stupid.

Collier11
4/2/2010, 03:35 PM
Both are shameful and stupid.

One is just hate for the sake of hate, the other is hatred because some actual really bad stuff is going on...I dont buy it

Crucifax Autumn
4/2/2010, 03:37 PM
Give him a break...He's the president of NAMBLA.

:D

yermom
4/2/2010, 04:50 PM
the "he's got immunity" bit doesn't exactly make him sound innocent either.

if the president of a country can be charged with war crimes, why can't the pope be brought up on charges of aiding child molesters? especially if it was before he was the pope?

StoopTroup
4/2/2010, 04:54 PM
So are the only pedophiles Catholic Priests?

Once the Pope gets rid of these very disturbed men...the World will be free of pedophiles?

yermom
4/2/2010, 05:03 PM
1) did i miss it in the bible where priests weren't supposed to have wives?

2) there are lots of pedophiles, but the one ones that are Catholic priests apparently have safe haven.

it's not like people are coming out and saying all Catholics are pedophiles. it's that when they get caught by the church they just move them around and/or slap their wrists or whatever, further enabling them to keep molesting

Collier11
4/2/2010, 05:09 PM
1) did i miss it in the bible where priests weren't supposed to have wives?

2) there are lots of pedophiles, but the one ones that are Catholic priests apparently have safe haven.

it's not like people are coming out and saying all Catholics are pedophiles. it's that when they get caught by the church they just move them around and/or slap their wrists or whatever, further enabling them to keep molesting

yea im not exactly sure how they get immunity, seems the last time this happened there werent alot of prosecutions. I think the Catholic church seriously needs to reconsider their view on priests having wives, it makes no sense and it says nowhere in the Bible that I know of that they shouldnt have wives

Chuck Bao
4/2/2010, 05:12 PM
Both are shameful and stupid.

I am not sure what the correct answer would be. How many of you would throw your religion under the bus if there were a few Baptist ministers accused of molesting the kids?

In a very, very side note, I got a woody when I was baptised. Do you think it negates the whole Baptismal thing? Mr. Preacher man and me were naked together and there was an erection.

Collier11
4/2/2010, 05:16 PM
I am not sure what the correct answer would be. How many of you would throw your religion under the bus if there were a few Baptist ministers accused of molesting the kids?

In a very, very side note, I got a woody when I was baptised. Do you think it negates the whole Baptismal thing? Mr. Preacher man and me were naked together and there was an erection.

This wasnt a few priests Chuck, this has been an ongoing issue for a long time

StoopTroup
4/2/2010, 05:35 PM
It's not like people are coming out and saying all Catholics are pedophiles. it's that when they get caught by the church they just move them around and/or slap their wrists or whatever, further enabling them to keep molesting

In America...we've changed that. We are now allowing them to be prosecuted. Now...that's a huge step in the right direction. The other side of the pond isn't quick to react as you have many Countries instead of many States who can be instructed via Federal Law to allow the prosecution to put them away.

It might be sometime before they get this stopped over there. Let's say they just oust the guy. Then he moves to a Country where he can start his own Flock and it starts all over again. The Church is doing what it can IMO.

The best thing that could happen is that the Father of the child involved put an end to it and then ask for forgiveness IMO. Then there won't be any continued abuse.

SoonerStormchaser
4/2/2010, 08:09 PM
The most recent episode of South Park made good light of the stupidity that is the Catholic Church's handling of the abuse situations.

Okla-homey
4/3/2010, 07:03 AM
May we be clear on something please? You know, fair and balanced, etc.

First off, the vast majority (>90%) of the priest conduct that has been causing problems for the Church has not involved "little boys." I define "little boys" as pre-pubescent males. i.e. boys younger than 12.

With very rare exceptions, the conduct, admittedly horrible, has been homosexual activity by priests involving post-pubescent teens with whom they are not allowed such conduct. Most of the victims are high school age boys in their early and mid-teens.

Rather like these "teachers doing their student" stories which are always popping up. The difference is those "teacher-teen student" stories are mostly heterosexual. The "pedophile priest" stories are mostly homosexual.

For some reason, you typically don't hear these teachers referred to as "pedophile teachers." But for some reason, the term "pedophile priests" has stuck.

I just don't think that's entirely fair, given "pedophile priest" conjurs up images of priests molesting little kids. That's generally not what has been occurring. Instead, this scandal is mostly about homosexual priests who have been doing high school age boys. And the Church's cover-ups.

JohnnyMack
4/3/2010, 08:07 AM
I'll just stick with calling them, "scumbag pieces of ****". Thanks for your effort at justifying it though.

King Barry's Back
4/5/2010, 04:52 AM
yea im not exactly sure how they get immunity, seems the last time this happened there werent alot of prosecutions. I think the Catholic church seriously needs to reconsider their view on priests having wives, it makes no sense and it says nowhere in the Bible that I know of that they shouldnt have wives

The decision to have "celibate" -- clearly this only means unmarried -- priests was not Biblically based. As I recall, the high church offices (and the wealth that went with them) were in danger of being taken over by dynastic families.

So, to prevent this, the then-Pope opted to ban families from the priesthood.

THat decision could be undone, but it would set aside about 1000 years of tradition. But Collier is right -- it would not set aside Biblical doctrine.

SanJoaquinSooner
4/5/2010, 09:15 AM
One is just hate for the sake of hate, the other is hatred because some actual really bad stuff is going on...I dont buy it

I don't understand this comment, Collier. Extermination of people because of their religion was "actual really bad stuff" too.

Both pedophilia and extermination of people are horrible and don't need comparisons to justify saying so.

jkjsooner
4/5/2010, 10:02 AM
I don't understand this comment, Collier. Extermination of people because of their religion was "actual really bad stuff" too.

Both pedophilia and extermination of people are horrible and don't need comparisons to justify saying so.


The comparison between pediphilia and the extermination isn't the point. The comparison the Priest made was that he compared the criticism of the Vatican to the extermination of the jews.

This thread should have been titled, "Hmmm, hating Jews for just being Jewish is the same as denouncingpriests for humping little boys?"

Collier11
4/5/2010, 11:42 AM
I don't understand this comment, Collier. Extermination of people because of their religion was "actual really bad stuff" too.

Both pedophilia and extermination of people are horrible and don't need comparisons to justify saying so.

Im saying that anti semitism was a horrible hateful thing while the catholic church whining that people are attacking them for the pedophilia thing and going after the Pope unfairly is just BS. The Church compared those two things and they dont even compare. He wasnt comparing what as happened within the church, he was comparing how people are treating the church and the Pope over the situation with anti semitism

Stitch Face
4/5/2010, 11:50 AM
In a very, very side note, I got a woody when I was baptised. Do you think it negates the whole Baptismal thing? Mr. Preacher man and me were naked together and there was an erection.

It is risen!

GKeeper316
4/5/2010, 12:27 PM
yea im not exactly sure how they get immunity, seems the last time this happened there werent alot of prosecutions. I think the Catholic church seriously needs to reconsider their view on priests having wives, it makes no sense and it says nowhere in the Bible that I know of that they shouldnt have wives

not allowing priests to marry is a relatively new concept in catholocism... it wasnt until the 16th century that the policy was formally adopted by the vatican. it was spain who first forbade its priests from being married.

as it stands right now, the vow of celibacy is the reason so many pedophiles are drawn to the priesthood... it gives them a perfect group from which to select victims, and nobody ever questions why he's never seen with a woman.

SanJoaquinSooner
4/5/2010, 12:34 PM
Im saying that anti semitism was a horrible hateful thing while the catholic church whining that people are attacking them for the pedophilia thing and going after the Pope unfairly is just BS. The Church compared those two things and they dont even compare. He wasnt comparing what as happened within the church, he was comparing how people are treating the church and the Pope over the situation with anti semitism

Can you edit the title of the thread to fit what was being compared?

Collier11
4/5/2010, 02:12 PM
Can you edit the title of the thread to fit what was being compared?

my thread title was me being a smart azz

47straight
4/5/2010, 02:43 PM
yea im not exactly sure how they get immunity, seems the last time this happened there werent alot of prosecutions. I think the Catholic church seriously needs to reconsider their view on priests having wives, it makes no sense and it says nowhere in the Bible that I know of that they shouldnt have wives

1. Married, heterosexual men have the highest rates of these kinds of abuses. Allowing priests to be married isn't going to reduce the chances of abuse happening.

2. Catholics don't believe in sola scriptura, so just because it isn't in the bible is a non-starter.

3. "They" don't get immunity. As head of state, the pope would have the same immunity as any othe rhead of state.

47straight
4/5/2010, 02:47 PM
The comparison between pediphilia and the extermination isn't the point. The comparison the Priest made was that he compared the criticism of the Vatican to the extermination of the jews.

This thread should have been titled, "Hmmm, hating Jews for just being Jewish is the same as denouncingpriests for humping little boys?"

The priest read a letter from his Jewish friend who compared the general attitude that allows gross misreporting of facts and spin to general anti-semitism. Noone is defending child abuse. But misreporting facts to blame the pope because you don't like his conservative social views isn't fair.

47straight
4/5/2010, 02:49 PM
not allowing priests to marry is a relatively new concept in catholocism... it wasnt until the 16th century that the policy was formally adopted by the vatican. it was spain who first forbade its priests from being married.

as it stands right now, the vow of celibacy is the reason so many pedophiles are drawn to the priesthood... it gives them a perfect group from which to select victims, and nobody ever questions why he's never seen with a woman.

Incorrect on both counts. Celibate priests have been around since the beginning, it was made a rule ~500 A.D., and married men are more likely to be pedophiles.

Collier11
4/5/2010, 02:58 PM
3. "They" don't get immunity. As head of state, the pope would have the same immunity as any othe rhead of state.

then why havent so many of these priests been prosecuted?

47straight
4/5/2010, 03:32 PM
Before I myself get accused of defending child abuse, I'd like to show what I disagree with. Because crimes against children is so terrible, there's this need to blame someone. But it's pretty awful to get blamed unfairly.

In the example of the case of a priest abusing deaf children in the 1970's that has come up during the last week, the pope has been accused by a NY Times report of covering it up in his role as Cardinal in charge of Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, that he interfered/stopped a 1990s canonical trial to defrock the priest.

The canonical judge in charge of that proceeding has since spoke up.

http://catholicanchor.org/wordpress/?p=601

Most damaging for the NY Times is the fact that, despite he was the guy running the canonical trial against the accused priest, none of the journalists even bothered to contact him.

He goes on to point out several other key points. First, the canonical trial for the guy never ended, he died a month or two later while proceedings were still going on. Second, even if the trial had been stopped, he as judge would have appealed it. Third, the trial was opened despite the fact that the canonical statute of limitations had run out. Fourth, he is "quoted," but the quotations are from handwritten documents that are not his handwriting.

He also highlights the future pope's role in helping solve the larger problems, but that's opinion. What gets me is the lack of reporting of the factual issues in regards to the future pope's involvement in the case, but then deciding that he's the one to blame in all this.

Tulsa_Fireman
4/5/2010, 03:34 PM
But it's more fun to target someone like the Pope than something stupid like unemployment or war.