Thomas Jefferson was a wise man.

[Harry Beanbag]

"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government."

"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories."

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny."

"For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security."

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

"I'm a great believer in luck and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it."

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."

"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock."

"It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself."

"Leave no authority existing not responsible to the people."

"Never spend your money before you have earned it."

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."

"No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms."

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

"Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence."

"Peace and abstinence from European interferences are our objects, and so will continue while the present order of things in America remain uninterrupted."

"Power is not alluring to pure minds."

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."

"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question."

"So confident am I in the intentions, as well as wisdom, of the government, that I shall always be satisfied that what is not done, either cannot, or ought not to be done."

"The advertisement is the most truthful part of a newspaper."

"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers."

"The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory."

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground."

"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive."

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

"The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. Our children see this, and learn to imitate it."

"There is a natural aristocracy among men. The grounds of this are virtue and talents."

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."

"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."

"Truth is certainly a branch of morality and a very important one to society."

"We are not to expect to be translated from despotism to liberty in a featherbed."

"When a man assumes a public trust he should consider himself a public property."

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

"When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe."

"Whenever a man has cast a longing eye on offices, a rottenness begins in his conduct."

[tommieharris91]

Thomas Jefferson was a man who hated any sort of centralized power.

[GKeeper316]

he also didnt believe in the notion of a christian god.

neither did thomas paine

[yermom]

i think this post might have been blocked in Texas

[C&CDean]

You know, they should have put that Jefferson dude up on Mt. Rushmore...

[C&CDean]

That all you got Obama boy?

[Jello Biafra]

He didn't like the "blacks" carrying the US Mail either, must have been somebody's hero.

now they refuse to carry anything thing...


heyo!

[C&CDean]

You're right, those boys can carry the mail...

[sooner59]

Two words: Sims & Peterson

:D

[landrun]

he also didnt believe in the notion of a christian god.

neither did thomas paine

Half true. And its obvious when you read Common Sense by Thomas Paine. Something happened in his life as he grew older he thoroughly rejected the Bible as being infallible. Franklin said there would have been no revolution without Paine's book Common Sense. And when you read it, it is basically a sermon from the Bible where her argues that God doesn't ordain Kings to rule people but that a Republic is the form of Government endorsed by God. Paine later attacked the Bible as myth in his two Age of Reason works but he remained a staunch Deist believing in God throughout his life and I believe Jefferson did also. Paine argued that the study of Science was the the study of Theology and believed in the goodness of God Almighty.

As far as I know, none of our founding fathers were atheists. The vast majority were Christian and believed that the exercise of the freedom of religion was fundamental to all free people. Mainly because many of them suffered religious persecution for their own faith by the Church of England and wanted to ensure it didn't happen again in America. If you doubt that read Ben Franklin's autobiography where he tells a story of his family having to hide their family Bible from the authorities in the church of England.

It goes without saying that the worst of our founding fathers were better than the best politicians we have today. The didn't give lip-service to liberty. They were willing to offer up their fortunes and their lives for it because their belief in it was real.

[tommieharris91]

Based on what I know about him, Jefferson was, at best, agnostic.

[tommieharris91]

Based on what I know about him, Jefferson was, at best, agnostic.

I'm wrong. But I'll say that he did often question whether there is a God or not.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Tommy J was a hardcore playa. Word.

[soonerscuba]

Half true. And its obvious when you read Common Sense by Thomas Paine. Something happened in his life as he grew older he thoroughly rejected the Bible as being infallible. Franklin said there would have been no revolution without Paine's book Common Sense. And when you read it, it is basically a sermon from the Bible where her argues that God doesn't ordain Kings to rule people but that a Republic is the form of Government endorsed by God. Paine later attacked the Bible as myth in his two Age of Reason works but he remained a staunch Deist believing in God throughout his life and I believe Jefferson did also. Paine argued that the study of Science was the the study of Theology and believed in the goodness of God Almighty.

As far as I know, none of our founding fathers were atheists. The vast majority were Christian and believed that the exercise of the freedom of religion was fundamental to all free people. Mainly because many of them suffered religious persecution for their own faith by the Church of England and wanted to ensure it didn't happen again in America. If you doubt that read Ben Franklin's autobiography where he tells a story of his family having to hide their family Bible from the authorities in the church of England.

It goes without saying that the worst of our founding fathers were better than the best politicians we have today. The didn't give lip-service to liberty. They were willing to offer up their fortunes and their lives for it because their belief in it was real.Thomas Paine advocated progressive taxation, the minimum wage and public education for all, in the 18th century, roughly a century and a half before it was fashionalble and was thanked for his service to this country by half a dozen people at his funeral. Please do me a favor and don't try to lump him into whatever froth the Dems have you lathered up in this week. I couldn't think of a single worse example of a founding father for conservatives to pretend like they share ideals.

[Jello Biafra]

Tommy J was a hardcore playa. Word.

he wasa


ballah


shot collah!


20" blades on the impala!

[Scott D]

fwiw a 'Deist' in this case is someone who believes there is a God but rejects the notion of 'The Fall of the Garden'. Also, more of the 'Founding Fathers' were 'Deists' than people think.

[Desert Sapper]

Is it relevant what their religious backgrounds were if they all advocated freedom of religion, meaning the freedom to practice or not practice whatever religion you decide? They mostly believed there was a God, as evidenced by nearly every significant article of the foundation of this country.

Thomas Jefferson is my hero.

George Washington was his.

And we would be remiss if we did not mention that between the two of them, they warned of the very things we see (and fret) about today -- big government, increasing socialism, political parties concentrating more on themselves than their constituents, private banks controlling their own currency, increased control, decreased freedom, and a general degradation of the very things many of them gave their lives for.

[Scott D]

and yet they all went to George Mason for advice.

[Harry Beanbag]

Is it relevant what their religious backgrounds were if they all advocated freedom of religion, meaning the freedom to practice or not practice whatever religion you decide? They mostly believed there was a God, as evidenced by nearly every significant article of the foundation of this country.

Thomas Jefferson is my hero.

George Washington was his.

And we would be remiss if we did not mention that between the two of them, they warned of the very things we see (and fret) about today -- big government, increasing socialism, political parties concentrating more on themselves than their constituents, private banks controlling their own currency, increased control, decreased freedom, and a general degradation of the very things many of them gave their lives for.


Exactly. This thread isn't a religious debate, it's just showing how far this country has fallen from its founding. Everything that the founding fathers warned about is coming true.

[OULenexaman]

Exactly. This thread isn't a religious debate, it's just showing how far this country has fallen from its founding. Everything that the founding fathers warned about is coming true.

And Ronald Reagan spoke about it often.....

[Sooner Eclipse]

And Ronald Reagan spoke about it often.....

He spoke of this exact thing.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs

[landrun]

Thomas Paine advocated progressive taxation, the minimum wage and public education for all, in the 18th century, roughly a century and a half before it was fashionalble and was thanked for his service to this country by half a dozen people at his funeral. Please do me a favor and don't try to lump him into whatever froth the Dems have you lathered up in this week. I couldn't think of a single worse example of a founding father for conservatives to pretend like they share ideals.

I'm a conservative. And
1) Paine is my favorite founding father.
2) I support a minimum wage now.
3) I have no problem with a progressive tax. "To whom much is given, much is required." So said Jesus (yeah, I'm a Christian too)
4) I don't have a problem with free public education. I just think that all social programs should be at the state level.

[Sooner in Tampa]

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
^^^^ THIS!

[Sooner in Tampa]

he also didnt believe in the notion of a christian god.

neither did thomas paine
WTF does that have to do with OP?

[My Opinion Matters]

The world is exactly like it was 250 years ago.

[Okla-homey]

You forgot this gem, penned in 1794 and discovered in 1887 where it was tucked between Jefferson's mattress and box springs at Monticello:


"All men are created equal, except for the African race, which is clearly a sub-species of human being and not worthy of any rights under the law of these United States. However, certain of the young females of that species are most fetching and useful to their owners for indiscriminate rogering. Those owners who choose to partake of such ebony pleasures are well-advised to deny paternity of any mulatto offspring that issue from such illegitimate unions"

;)

[Sooner in Tampa]

The world is exactly like it was 250 years ago.

You are right about that...there are A LOT more people standing around waiting for a handout!

[Stitch Face]

The world is exactly like it was 250 years ago.

This is my favorite argument.

"The world is like, totally different now, see...and, like, "liberty" and "personal autonomy" and "self-reliance" are just, like, antique philosophies that dudes in wigs talk about. Do you wear a wig? OMG YOU'RE A FAUX NEWS WINGNUT WHO THINKS WE SHOULD ALL WEAR WIGS ROFL!!!"

[delhalew]

As a side note, today is the anniversery of Patrick Henry's "Give Me Liberty, Or Give Me Death" speech.
http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/henry.htm

[My Opinion Matters]

This is my favorite argument.

"The world is like, totally different now, see...and, like, "liberty" and "personal autonomy" and "self-reliance" are just, like, antique philosophies that dudes in wigs talk about. Do you wear a wig? OMG YOU'RE A FAUX NEWS WINGNUT WHO THINKS WE SHOULD ALL WEAR WIGS ROFL!!!"

Look, I have no intention of turning this into a partisan flamewar, because my interest in this garbage ranges from casual indifference on a good day to outright disgust on a bad day, but everything being said in this thread is precisely what's wrong with the GOP these days. All of your heroes and ideas are 300 years old.

I'm not suggesting Thomas Jefferson or any of the founding were not brilliant and noble men worthy of admiration. I'm not suggesting that the virtues of accountability and responsibility are relics of a bygone era. Let's be real though, the USA of 1800 had 5 million residents, 80% of which of were out of White European ancestry, and of course only the men of this group actually had the "right" to vote. The America of today has 300 million people, 34% of which are non-white. There's been an Industrial Revolution, two World Wars, a Civil War, the emancipation of the slaves, black suffrage, women's suffrage, and a civil rights movement. Not to mention all the advancements in technology that have changed the world as we know it. We owe a lot to Jefferson, but the world has changed since his time. You want the GOP to be relevant? Stop looking to the past and start looking to the future. Where are your modern-day heroes? Don't give me Reagan, it's been over 2 decades.

[Sooner in Tampa]

What MoM just posted is, IMHO, what is one the problems of today. We don't embrace our past and the values that our heroes upheld.

Personally, I think the values of the past are what made this country great, and as we continue to throw them away, our country loses some of it's greatness.

We can progress with new ideas, but I think we need to hang on our values.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

So because the actual framers of our government, those men who forged the very premise of how we as a society exist, are long dead, it is encumbent upon us to abandon them for relevant, modern day wisdom?

To put it bluntly, that's stupid.

These were men wise beyond their years but not without fault due to the very fact that they were men. Men that given the same task in our current generation would, without a doubt, be titans amongst us. Men that with knowledge and blood forged an amazing entity of prosperity and freedom that stands as the world's shining light. And to many, those that will uphold those tenets are our heroes of the future. The beauty of it is that there's an everlasting measuring stick for which to compare.

After all, those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[ndpruitt03]

Thomas Jefferson was a man who hated any sort of centralized power.

Centralized power has always broken down eventually.

[Stitch Face]

Look, I have no intention of turning this into a partisan flamewar, because my interest in this garbage ranges from casual indifference on a good day to outright disgust on a bad day, but everything being said in this thread is precisely what's wrong with the GOP these days. All of your heroes and ideas are 300 years old.

I'm not suggesting Thomas Jefferson or any of the founding were not brilliant and noble men worthy of admiration. I'm not suggesting that the virtues of accountability and responsibility are relics of a bygone era. Let's be real though, the USA of 1800 had 5 million residents, 80% of which of were out of White European ancestry, and of course only the men of this group actually had the "right" to vote. The America of today has 300 million people, 34% of which are non-white. There's been an Industrial Revolution, two World Wars, a Civil War, the emancipation of the slaves, black suffrage, women's suffrage, and a civil rights movement. Not to mention all the advancements in technology that have changed the world as we know it. We owe a lot to Jefferson, but the world has changed since his time. You want the GOP to be relevant? Stop looking to the past and start looking to the future. Where are your modern-day heroes? Don't give me Reagan, it's been over 2 decades.

What does any of this have to do with the Republicans? Do you happen to know which party I support or vote for? Did the "Father of Our Country" not specifically warn against politcal parties? Haven't both parties been equally culpable in bankrupting the nation, thus leading us to the point where we have no option but to confiscate the wealth of some to pay for the "rights" of others? In a way you just reenforced the end of my last post by ending yours with some tangential reference to the GOP. Can we not have a conversation without resorting to "THE PARTY I ASSUME YOU BELONG TO SUCKS MORE!!!"

[yermom]

What MoM just posted is, IMHO, what is one the problems of today. We don't embrace our past and the values that our heroes upheld.

Personally, I think the values of the past are what made this country great, and as we continue to throw them away, our country loses some of it's greatness.

We can progress with new ideas, but I think we need to hang on our values.

you mean like rich white dudes making all the decisions?

medical care was leeches and blood-letting when they wrote the constitution... it's not hard to pay for that :)

[soonerscuba]

you mean like rich white dudes making all the decisions?

medical care was leeches and blood-letting when they wrote the constitution... it's not hard to pay for that :)My personal favorite value is fractionalizing the very personhood of the mother of your illegitmate children.

[Sooner in Tampa]

you mean like rich white dudes making all the decisions?

medical care was leeches and blood-letting when they wrote the constitution... it's not hard to pay for that :)
HEH :P

I mean, if ya want something...you go out and work for it.

If something bad happens to ya...pull up your britches and get to fixing it

Do for yourself...quit sitting around waiting for the goverment to give it to.

[My Opinion Matters]

So because the actual framers of our government, those men who forged the very premise of how we as a society exist, are long dead, it is encumbent upon us to abandon them for relevant, modern day wisdom?

To put it bluntly, that's stupid.

These were men wise beyond their years but not without fault due to the very fact that they were men. Men that given the same task in our current generation would, without a doubt, be titans amongst us. Men that with knowledge and blood forged an amazing entity of prosperity and freedom that stands as the world's shining light. And to many, those that will uphold those tenets are our heroes of the future. The beauty of it is that there's an everlasting measuring stick for which to compare.

After all, those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

I like you Fire Dude, so don't take this personally, but that post is like a hot new sports car that has a 4-cylinder. It looks nice, but there's really nothing to it.

I was perfectly clear that I'm not advocating abandoning the legacy of the founding fathers. The values are still relevant. Applying the rules of US government circa 1800 are not. And unless Jefferson rises from the grave to seek another term, I stand by my assertion that he's not the embodiment of America's political future.

[My Opinion Matters]

What does any of this have to do with the Republicans? Do you happen to know which party I support or vote for? Did the "Father of Our Country" not specifically warn against politcal parties? Haven't both parties been equally culpable in bankrupting the nation, thus leading us to the point where we have no option but to confiscate the wealth of some to pay for the "rights" of others? In a way you just reenforced the end of my last post by ending yours with some tangential reference to the GOP. Can we not have a conversation without resorting to "THE PARTY I ASSUME YOU BELONG TO SUCKS MORE!!!"

Because Republicans=good, everyone else=bad. Haven't you been paying attention?

But yeah, my bad.

[Stitch Face]

you mean like rich white dudes making all the decisions?

To be fair, the rich dude currently making our decisions for us is half black/half white.

[ndpruitt03]

Our founding fathers wanted to get as far away from what Europe was doing at that time as possible because they saw Europe as going to hell in a hand basket. Our current leaders want to be Europe and Europe passed hell sometime around 70-100 years ago.

[ndpruitt03]

Because Republicans=good, everyone else=bad. Haven't you been paying attention?

But yeah, my bad.

Republicans are a big part of why we are at where we are at in our government right now.

[yermom]

To be fair, the rich dude currently making our decisions for us is half black/half white.

i'm referring to voters

[Tulsa_Fireman]

The guy that votes for me is half black/half white.

His name is Tyrone. He's a good executor of my wishes.

[Jello Biafra]

Republicans are a big part of why we are at where we are at in our government right now.

as usual, half informed and half full of shiite...

[Jello Biafra]

Our founding fathers wanted to get as far away from what Europe was doing at that time as possible because they saw Europe as going to hell in a hand basket.

yeh because they didn't give a fat, hairy, flea infested rat's azz about freedom to diddle their own meat stick or anything else right?

[Scott D]

Our founding fathers wanted to get as far away from what Europe was doing at that time as possible because they saw Europe as going to hell in a hand basket. Our current leaders want to be Europe and Europe passed hell sometime around 70-100 years ago.

Your lack of comprehension with history is only surpassed by your lack of knowledge in football.

[C&CDean]

Your lack of comprehension with history is only surpassed by your lack of knowledge in football.

Oh I don't know, his ignorance in all things basketball is pretty astounding.

[Scott D]

Oh I don't know, his ignorance in all things basketball is pretty astounding.

Not to mention his ignorance in health insurance, and quite frankly everything.