Will America GO DOWN EASILY?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

After Socialized medicine is jammed through, will they do the Amnesty next, or the Cap and trade? How will the public react?

[VeeJay]

At some point, state secession will become a reality. A.G.'s of several states have already vowed to sue the federal government if this bill becomes law.

We have three years of the conversion to a democratic socialist state remaining with this regime in place. I believe many are rapidly approaching the tipping point when states will pool their collective resources and simply walk away.

This will happen as a result of what's recently taken place in Congress (buying of votes and Stimulus), continued growth of the welfare state, rising unemployment, critical mass rejection of the overall rancor in D.C., etc.

And this all hasn't manifested itself on Obama's watch. He just put it in hyperdrive.

[1890MilesToNorman]

As of the other day 37 states intend to sue over this debacle.

[85Sooner]

The real question is , Will bullets start flying?

[Boarder]

If Joe Bob Public can buy a new 55" LCD with 0% for a year and get a free cast on his broken arm, he won't give a flying crap about any of this healthcare or stimulus stuff.

[Crucifax Autumn]

I've known quite a few nice American women who would regularly go down easily.

[Leroy Lizard]

The Democrats are trying to install a system where they will win every election and none of their ideas can be opposed. Soon, every state will be so financially beholden to the federal government that even a whisper of discontent will result in massive fines.

Again, look at the new national education standards. Who dares oppose Obama in adopting them? Texas. But that won't last long.

I'm not sure how many bullets will fly, but this will end up dividing the country for a very long time. The bitterness will run deep and you will see militias start to spring up all over the country.

I have never seen the country so divided since Viet Nam. But that was a war that was bound to end. I'm not so sure about this one.

[yermom]

how many states seceded during Vietnam?

i think there is way more rabble coming from Fox News than there is in reality.

talk to me again when the National Guard gets called out somewhere.

people might say they oppose this healthcare business, but it's not like it's some life or death thing.

all this over maybe paying a little more in taxes?

[Tailwind]

http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/exhibits/1857/images/after/flag.jpg

[Flagstaffsooner]

Secession!!!! We will win this time! Gawd damed yankees!

[yermom]

i'm sure Mexico would love to have you ;)

[Flagstaffsooner]

i'm sure Mexico would love to have you ;)And Nancy would love to have you in the rectum.:D
http://starmaker.today.com/files/2009/03/nancy-pelosi-on-botox.jpg

[SicEmBaylor]

I don't know about America, but Id like to see Sweden go down easily.....on me.

[yermom]

http://www.alexanderskarsgardfans.com/blog/wp-content/gallery/season-2-promotion/eric-silversuit.jpg

???

:D

[Leroy Lizard]

how many states seceded during Vietnam?

i think there is way more rabble coming from Fox News than there is in reality.

talk to me again when the National Guard gets called out somewhere.

people might say they oppose this healthcare business, but it's not like it's some life or death thing.

all this over maybe paying a little more in taxes?

You didn't read my post very carefully if you were responding to me.

[Okla-homey]

how many states seceded during Vietnam?



Because only the kids who were worried about being drafted opposed the war in Vietnam. And they were too stoned to do anything but demonstrate.

This time, its taxpayers. Grown-ups. And opposition to the current government's social agenda is deep and widespread.

I don't think there'll be any Second Civil Wars, but I do think if this bunch in Washington rams this thing down folks' throats, there'll be hell to pay at the ballot box. Remember, Massachusetts elected a 'Pub to Teddy Kennedy's old seat precisely over this crap.

[yermom]

You didn't read my post very carefully if you were responding to me.

more of a response to the original post, referencing yours

i just don't see this being as divisive as people seem to think. sure the dittoheads hate it, but it's not like states are going to leave the Union or anything.

[yermom]

Because only the kids who were worried about being drafted opposed the war in Vietnam. And they were too stoned to do anything but demonstrate.

This time, its taxpayers. Grown-ups. And opposition to the current government's social agenda is deep and widespread.

I don't think there'll be any Second Civil Wars, but I do think if this bunch in Washington rams this thing down folks' throats, there'll be hell to pay at the ballot box. Remember, Massachusetts elected a 'Pub to Teddy Kennedy's old seat precisely over this crap.


if there were jobs, i don't think anyone would be that pissed off

[OKLA21FAN]

Because only the kids who were worried about being drafted opposed the war in Vietnam. And they were too stoned to do anything but demonstrate.

This time, its taxpayers. Grown-ups. And opposition to the current government's social agenda is deep and widespread.

.

call me crazy, but are you not referring to the SAME group of people, just 40 years later? :pop:

[ouwasp]

Here's a question I overheard the other day that will certainly provoke some thought...

Is the United States worth dying for anymore?

[Chuck Bao]

Really?

Half of America had to suffer through eight years of the Bush administration and where were the cries that he was taking us to hell in a basket? The answer is that there were none.

As Obama tries to get our economy back on track and address some of our most pressing problems, you guys start talking about open rebellion. I don't get it.

Oh, I get that those of you with jobs and company provided health care don't want to change anything. I'll listen more to people who say that they've lost their jobs and health care coverage and they don't want Obama's health care reform.

I get that the term "socialism" is a code word for helping anybody that is not me.

I get that health care reform is increasingly being tied to the touchstone issue of illegal immigrants and that is a pity because many Americans who have lost their jobs are suffering.

What exactly do the Republicans represent? Building a wall? Agressive deportation of illegal immigrants? How many Republicans have signed up for that? Or, offer a viable solution? How do they propose to get the US economy back on track?

Be careful in what you wish for. Tearing down is easy and that is becoming a very popular campaign tactic for Republicans. Building up is the hard part.

I would so like to hear exactly what alternatives the Republicans propose.

[85Sooner]

I will gladly pay for those like chuck who are too ignorant to choose to read more than Nancy pelosis bedroom diaries. Your choice. One way ticket out of this country FOREVER to a country of your choice or a ticket to Detroit for the remainder of your life. They got it goin on right bro.....................

[Chuck Bao]

Here's a question I overheard the other day that will certainly provoke some thought...

Is the United States worth dying for anymore?

There is a really easy answer to this question and it is a definite yes.

We support democracy in its various forms in the US and through foreign diplomacy throughout the world. At the end of the day, the people should have a vote and a representative government. If you do not agree with the majority, that is your prerogative. Work harder to convince your fellow countrymen in the next election.

The entire economic landscape has changed. The calculation of GDP and inflation has changed. During the internet boom era, analysts were talking about the new economy. This is the new economy, like it or not. It is not labor intensive. Wealth disparities are rising and the middle class is shrinking.

The US has many problems now and it was pretty much predicted 20 years ago. Our representatives in government never managed to tackle the tough questions. Now that the **** has hit the fan, it seems to me to be a cop out by saying that America is not worth dying for. It was worth dying for 20 years ago and will be 20 years in the future if we hold to our key values.

[Chuck Bao]

I will gladly pay for those like chuck who are too ignorant to choose to read more than Nancy pelosis bedroom diaries. Your choice. One way ticket out of this country FOREVER to a country of your choice or a ticket to Detroit for the remainder of your life. They got it goin on right bro.....................

I have no clue as to what you are trying to say. You are going to pay for what? My one-way trip out of the country?

That is incredibly noble and magnanimous of you. But what if you are in the minority and I am in the majority?

Will you pay for your own one-way ticket out? Where would you go if rebellion isn’t working out so well for you?

And what are we actually talking about. Is it class warfare? Be careful there because, and I do know something about this, people generally don’t like internal wars. They can grumble about taxes until they are blue in the face, but violence and disruptions is going to scare them away.

[85Sooner]

What your first Statement says is majority rule. That is not part of our constitution. Your problem, that your speak of started 50 years ago with the great society. Its very simple chuck. YOU CAN NOT afford to support non producers in that form of government such as what we have.

And no, I will not send my kids to fight for a bunch or worthless nothings that want to live off of the labor of others or the soft hearted people who are too ignorant, and support them. Both need to be eradicated from our society. PERIOD. Either move out or we will move you out. THIS IS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. THE PLACE WHERE PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD ARE TRYING TO ATTAIN ENTRANCE TO. ITS WHERE HARD WORK AND SELF SUFFICIENCE IS EXPECTED! any other form of existance should not and will not be tolerated.

[SicEmBaylor]

There is a place in our society and government for social safety net programs that provide needed assistance to those who need it most during difficult times. Those places are our individual states who are responsible for taking care of their citizens and ensuring that such programs exist. It is certainly not the place of the Federal government to do so. The Feds should be limited to protecting our borders, guarding the nation, settling interstate disputes, printing money, and conducting foreign policy.

As for illegal immigrants...well, it certainly isn't reasonable to try and round up every illegal immigrant that's here. What we can do is aggressively go after employers and create a situation in which the penalties for hiring an illegal immigrant are so great and profound that no business would take the risk. In that way the immigration problem takes care of itself. Those who still won't leave even after the jobs are gone can still be rounded up and deported. For the record, I oppose all forms of immigration legal or otherwise.

And remember, by the end of Bush's presidency the split wasn't 50/50....it was more like 75/25.

[85Sooner]

I have no clue as to what you are trying to say. You are going to pay for what? My one-way trip out of the country?

That is incredibly noble and magnanimous of you. But what if you are in the minority and I am in the majority?

Will you pay for your own one-way ticket out? Where would you go if rebellion isn’t working out so well for you?

And what are we actually talking about. Is it class warfare? Be careful there because, and I do know something about this, people generally don’t like internal wars. They can grumble about taxes until they are blue in the face, but violence and disruptions is going to scare them away.

I AM paying for many non producers ticket, in the form of food, health care (yes before the bill), low cost housing social security,If your in the majority than this country is over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and Yeah violence is what established this country from a country whose most predominant language today is
pakistani.

Look at gun and ammo sales. WE are SICK AND TIRED OF EVERYONE. BLACK WHITE, QUIT STEALING MY AND MY CHILDREN S HARD WORK.

and as a liberal loving Cassias Clay said, No Vietnamese never called me ******, I will tell you that I would rather support an Indian, etc..... that is really trying ,than any piece of trash and that is what they are who live their life in the freedom of the USA sponging off of the producers in society.

[85Sooner]

Sicem , yes there is BUT it has been taken advantage of and turned into a political platform used to get people into power. That is why you first statement cannot be regulated by government. Communitees, YES, Churches? YES. the government absolutely without and doubt NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

This is the most Generous country in the world, but to let people in power decide where the money goes is an abomination of the framework of what this country was established on.

[SicEmBaylor]

I AM paying for many non producers ticket, in the form of food, health care (yes before the bill), low cost housing social security,If your in the majority than this country is over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and Yeah violence is what established this country from a country whose most predominant language today is
pakistani.

Look at gun and ammo sales. WE are SICK AND TIRED OF EVERYONE. BLACK WHITE, QUIT STEALING MY AND MY CHILDREN S HARD WORK.

and as a liberal loving Cassias Clay said, No Vietnamese never called me ******, I will tell you that I would rather support an Indian, etc..... that is really trying ,than any piece of trash and that is what they are who live their life in the freedom of the USA sponging off of the producers in society.

I agree with all of this. I just hope you realize that the Republican Party supports NONE of those things and sold itself out long ago. They redistribute wealth and limit liberty as much as the Democrats do...yes as much as the Democrats do not "slightly less" making them more palatable for the "vote for the lesser of two evils" crowd.

There isn't a party in existence that I can seriously support. I want a party that stands up for America's Western European culture, supports a drastic curtailing of Federal power and a return to something closer to the original intent of our Constitution by repealing the 14th and 17th amendments, supports strong state powers with robust power allowing them to freely take up some of the slack left from a curtailed Fed. government. Most importantly, I want to see a humble and small (c) conservative foreign policy that brings our troops home, closes overseas bases, stops getting involved in the domestic affairs of other nations, pulls out of all international organizations (such as the UN and NATO), stops sending a single red cent in foreign aid overseas, and stops getting involved in undeclared and unnecessary military engagements.

[85Sooner]

Oh and what should be happening is regular rounding up of all illegals and shipping the hell out of our country. All employers who hire illegals should have the profits of their companies confiscated (for the entire life of the company) to ship em out in order to pay for it. The general population should refuse to do business with anyone who cannot prove that their employees are 100% certified US citizens.

[85Sooner]

The blue blood repubs and the dems are ALL RESPONSIBLE PARTIES. SHOULD BE HELD TO ACCOUNT AND TRIED by the taxpayers, Not their associates in the justice department. I am not a republican anymore. I am a conservative and more so a constitutional conservative and I have absolutely NO TOLERANCE any longer. It is gone, nada, expired, worn out. GET OUT OR BE REMOVED, I don't give a damn who you are. ( Not any members here, hope you get the point)

[SicEmBaylor]

Oh and what should be happening is regular rounding up of all illegals and shipping the hell out of our country. All employers who hire illegals should have the profits of their companies confiscated (for the entire life of the company) to ship em out in order to pay for it. The general population should refuse to do business with anyone who cannot prove that their employees are 100% certified US citizens.

You can save a lot of money by not rounding them up and just toughening the laws on employers who hire illegals. They'll deport themselves if they can't get a job or, at the very least, fewer will come here if there are no jobs. Then you can have massive roundups to throw out the stragglers or the ones hanging around who are probably only staying here to deal drugs.

I also don't necessarily oppose shooting anyone trying to cross the border illegally.

[PrideTrombone]

Oh and what should be happening is regular rounding up of all illegals and shipping the hell out of our country. All employers who hire illegals should have the profits of their companies confiscated (for the entire life of the company) to ship em out in order to pay for it. The general population should refuse to do business with anyone who cannot prove that their employees are 100% certified US citizens.

Hmmm, perhaps even a special police force whose charge is to check papers to see if someone is an illegal or not, and apprehend accordingly. Perhaps some sort of police... run by the state... but if people know who they are, they'll just plan ahead accordingly, so maybe a "secret state police", sent to round up all of these ne'er-do-wells... what did the Germans call that again?

Look, we're not gonna get rid of these people. We're just not. You can go looking all you want and you won't even make a dent. Sic 'Em is right (shudder). You create damn harsh penalties for companies who hire them (your confiscation of profits idea is right on). Even better, we abolish the federal income tax and create a national sales tax instead. Illegals may not fill out 1040s, but they damn sure go to the store.

[Chuck Bao]

What your first Statement says is majority rule. That is not part of our constitution. Your problem, that your speak of started 50 years ago with the great society. Its very simple chuck. YOU CAN NOT afford to support non producers in that form of government such as what we have.

And no, I will not send my kids to fight for a bunch or worthless nothings that want to live off of the labor of others or the soft hearted people who are too ignorant, and support them. Both need to be eradicated from our society. PERIOD. Either move out or we will move you out. THIS IS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. THE PLACE WHERE PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD ARE TRYING TO ATTAIN ENTRANCE TO. ITS WHERE HARD WORK AND SELF SUFFICIENCE IS EXPECTED! any other form of existance should not and will not be tolerated.


Wow! What an amazing diatribe.

Our constitution does not guarantee health care, but it surely guarantees the right to vote. But, somehow you don’t want to recognize the popular vote anymore.

You don’t think that our government should provide any social safety net, I get that. I also have to have respect that our immigrant ancestors didn’t have a social safety net and they either produced or died.

You are not seeing what I am seeing. Our economy has changed and our economic policies need to reflect this change.

My great grandfather stopped my grandfather from getting his high school education because he said that farmers don’t need an education, just hard work. That is based on the idea of no social safety net and a largely agrian society. The economic world flipped since then and it recently flipped again.

I would think that it is hard getting a good job today. You can be mad at the unemployed and call them lazy if you want. Some may be lazy, but I assume that job exporting by our major companies would be playing a bigger role.

I also think that America is not the land of getting on welfare for most immigrants. Most immigrants are looking for work.

On a side note, it is pretty interesting that an increasing number of US MBA graduates are looking for work in Asia.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35892118/ns/business-businessweekcom/

[Chuck Bao]

Illegal immigrants pay taxes or not? I am confused on this.

I was under the impression that US companies issued forms for their illegal workers and they paid taxes. Most companies have to report their expenditure as a tax write-off to the IRS and they are not paying out like cash. Individuals needing yard work or house cleaning are paying cash and not bothering with claimed expenditure to the IRS. Is that non-corporate area that we need to crack down on?

[Scott D]

I will gladly pay for those like chuck who are too ignorant to choose to read more than Nancy pelosis bedroom diaries. Your choice. One way ticket out of this country FOREVER to a country of your choice or a ticket to Detroit for the remainder of your life. They got it goin on right bro.....................

WTF? DC is far more dangerous mother****er.

[Scott D]

and to stay with the topic. I'd lay odds that it's harder to get America to go down on anything than it is for the OP to deep throat anything that comes from the 'EIB Golden Microphone'

[delhalew]

call me crazy, but are you not referring to the SAME group of people, just 40 years later? :pop:

No. We are talking about their children, and we are well aware of what we have lost and are losing.

[Chuck Bao]

No. We are talking about their children, and we are well aware of what we have lost and are losing.

And, that is your majority? Hence the really negative census debate which has nothing to do with President Obama?

[delhalew]

Really?

Half of America had to suffer through eight years of the Bush administration and where were the cries that he was taking us to hell in a basket? The answer is that there were none.

As Obama tries to get our economy back on track and address some of our most pressing problems, you guys start talking about open rebellion. I don't get it.

Oh, I get that those of you with jobs and company provided health care don't want to change anything. I'll listen more to people who say that they've lost their jobs and health care coverage and they don't want Obama's health care reform.

I get that the term "socialism" is a code word for helping anybody that is not me.

I get that health care reform is increasingly being tied to the touchstone issue of illegal immigrants and that is a pity because many Americans who have lost their jobs are suffering.

What exactly do the Republicans represent? Building a wall? Agressive deportation of illegal immigrants? How many Republicans have signed up for that? Or, offer a viable solution? How do they propose to get the US economy back on track?

Be careful in what you wish for. Tearing down is easy and that is becoming a very popular campaign tactic for Republicans. Building up is the hard part.

I would so like to hear exactly what alternatives the Republicans propose.

Chuck, I love you buddy, but that post is from someone who lives in a different world than I do. I am a person struggling to keep health care for my wife and children. The problem is this is not about health care for me or Obama. This is a trojan horse, and it's not the first...or the last. I know Bangkok is a long way away, but it's on the same planet.

[1890MilesToNorman]

And, that is your majority? Hence the really negative census debate which has nothing to do with President Obama?

Under his watch. The Census is for determining how many representatives a state is entitled to, it is not to survey what time you leave for work or how much your mortgage payment is. They are not allowed to ask more than how many people reside in your household.

[delhalew]

There is a place in our society and government for social safety net programs that provide needed assistance to those who need it most during difficult times. Those places are our individual states who are responsible for taking care of their citizens and ensuring that such programs exist. It is certainly not the place of the Federal government to do so. The Feds should be limited to protecting our borders, guarding the nation, settling interstate disputes, printing money, and conducting foreign policy.

As for illegal immigrants...well, it certainly isn't reasonable to try and round up every illegal immigrant that's here. What we can do is aggressively go after employers and create a situation in which the penalties for hiring an illegal immigrant are so great and profound that no business would take the risk. In that way the immigration problem takes care of itself. Those who still won't leave even after the jobs are gone can still be rounded up and deported. For the record, I oppose all forms of immigration legal or otherwise.

And remember, by the end of Bush's presidency the split wasn't 50/50....it was more like 75/25.

If this country weren't in the ****ter. Sic 'em would be Capt. Obvious.

[delhalew]

Illegal immigrants pay taxes or not? I am confused on this.

I was under the impression that US companies issued forms for their illegal workers and they paid taxes. Most companies have to report their expenditure as a tax write-off to the IRS and they are not paying out like cash. Individuals needing yard work or house cleaning are paying cash and not bothering with claimed expenditure to the IRS. Is that non-corporate area that we need to crack down on?

I can answer that. In my America they don't pay taxes. Because they don't work. In fact they might catch a bullet from the a young National Guard member in the state of Texas...or Arizona...or Wisconsin...damn Canadians.

[delhalew]

And, that is your majority? Hence the really negative census debate which has nothing to do with President Obama?

Sorry. You lost me. Try again. I'm thru one bottle of wine already.

[Chuck Bao]

Chuck, I love you buddy, but that post is from someone who lives in a different world than I do. I am a person struggling to keep health care for my wife and children. The problem is this is not about health care for me or Obama. This is a trojan horse, and it's not the first...or the last. I know Bangkok is a long way away, but it's on the same planet.

Dude, I got major respect for you too and the fact that you struggle with health insurance for your family through your own hard endeavors.

Truthfully, I am a world away and I still worry that the health care premiums for your family will rise and rise and that is not your fault.

Seriously many are approaching a crisis point. I don't want to see that. Call me a weak heart liberal if you like. I would rather see our companies getting tax rewards for hiring Americans and so sort of disadvantage for exporting jobs. If you say that is socialism, then I'm a socialist.

[delhalew]

Dude, I got major respect for you too and the fact that you struggle with health insurance for your family through your own hard endeavors.

Truthfully, I am a world away and I still worry that the health care premiums for your family will rise and rise and that is not your fault.

Seriously many are approaching a crisis point. I don't want to see that. Call me a weak heart liberal if you like. I would rather see our companies getting tax rewards for hiring Americans and so sort of disadvantage for exporting jobs. If you say that is socialism, then I'm a socialist.

That's the thing, man. I don't mind struggle. It's in my blood. I just want to see the lazy prick in the Che Guevara t-shirt have a struggle equal to mine. Allow me to struggle in a free republic and will muster some struggle for my neighbor.

[Chuck Bao]

Sorry. You lost me. Try again. I'm thru one bottle of wine already.

I am terrible at remembering wine nams, or I would ask you which one. I got some great Italian red wine that helps dull the pain. Never mind that it comes in 5 litre bottles.

I probably lost myself as well. In Thailand, we got some people talking about egalitarian politics and how the military can seize power in a coup and then seize power again by arm twisting of politicians. That is not freedom however you slice it.

[Chuck Bao]

That's the thing, man. I don't mind struggle. It's in my blood. I just want to see the lazy prick in the Che Guevara t-shirt have a struggle equal to mine. Allow me to struggle in a free republic and will muster some struggle for my neighbor.

It is really weird you mentioning Che Guevara t-shirts. On Friday, I saw one Asian dude sporting a t-shirt with bullet hole in Che Guevara's forehead and blood dripping down everywhere. I should have asked him why and what it meant to him, but frankly he scared me and it was not the sort of thing you walk up to people and ask why did you kill Che?

[delhalew]

I am terrible at remembering wine nams, or I would ask you which one. I got some great Italian red wine that helps dull the pain. Never mind that it comes in 5 litre bottles.

I probably lost myself as well. In Thailand, we got some people talking about egalitarian politics and how the military can seize power in a coup and then seize power again by arm twisting of politicians. That is not freedom however you slice it.

Every time I buy wine I buy a different mid tier wine that I haven't tried before. Except this cheap pinot noir called Pinot Evil. It's got the three monkey in their poses. **** tastes good.

I can't really understand Thai politics without a great deal of study. That said, I am sure as hell glad a bunch of British Pilgrams decided to be tough guys back in 1776.

[GKeeper316]

how many threads do we really need on the same subject?

[Curly Bill]

how many threads do we really need on the same subject?

Yes, "many experts" are wondering exactly the same thing.

[delhalew]

how many threads do we really need on the same subject?

Hey Chuck and I are talking here. You got anything to say about wine, Thai politics, or Che Guevara?

[Curly Bill]

I can't get into wine, I just can't find a way to like the stuff.

[GKeeper316]

nope sorry...

o wait beer > wine

i tried to drink wine, once. then it occurred to me i wasnt gay :P

[delhalew]

nope sorry...

o wait beer > wine

i tried to drink wine, once. then it occurred to me i wasnt gay :P

Variety GK. Some say it is the spice of life. Silly homos.:D

[Ardmore_Sooner]

I'M TYPING IN ALL CAPS, SO THIS STATEMENT IS IMPORTANT!!!!!1!11

[SicEmBaylor]

nope sorry...

o wait beer > wine

i tried to drink wine, once. then it occurred to me i wasnt gay :P

There are plenty of other reasons why you're gay and drinking wine isn't one of them.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

The Democrats are trying to install a system where they will win every election and none of their ideas can be opposed. Soon, every state will be so financially beholden to the federal government that even a whisper of discontent will result in massive fines.

Again, look at the new national education standards. Who dares oppose Obama in adopting them? Texas. But that won't last long.

I'm not sure how many bullets will fly, but this will end up dividing the country for a very long time. The bitterness will run deep and you will see militias start to spring up all over the country.

I have never seen the country so divided since Viet Nam. But that was a war that was bound to end. I'm not so sure about this one.The assault is domestic and widespread. Nowhere as simple as stopping participation in an overseas conflict.

[GKeeper316]

Yes, "many experts" are wondering exactly the same thing.

every single article ive read on the subject and every single news story ive seen has pointed the majority of the blame squarly on the shoulders on the gramm/leach/bliley act...

was it the only factor? of course not. but the collapse of the economy couldnt have happened without it.

im still waiting for you to disprove it, but you can't, can you?

[GKeeper316]

Again, look at the new national education standards. Who dares oppose Obama in adopting them? Texas. But that won't last long.



how is a national standard for english and math a political objective?

[SicEmBaylor]

The assault is domestic and widespread. Nowhere as simple as stopping participation in an overseas conflict.

Big government abroad begets big government at home.

[Curly Bill]

Karl, myself and "most experts" are still waiting on your list of said experts that blame republicans for the fiscal mess we're in.

You provide that list and we can move on from there. Until such time I sumbit that you're still full of ****, and will provide you with nothing, will not go out of my way to prove or disprove nothing, etc...

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Big government abroad begets big government at home.We're going to have to continue to disagree on the military duties of the govt. We agree on the nanny-state problem. That is the fundamental problem, IMO, along with the corruption. I don't believe there is a chance of political calming until the federal govt stops the tax and spend policy...but it's the only thing democrats know, and want.

[delhalew]

We're going to have to continue to disagree on the military duties of the govt. We agree on the nanny-state problem. That is the fundamental problem, IMO, along with the corruption. I don't believe there is a chance of political calming until the federal govt stops the tax and spend policy...but it's the only thing democrats know, and want.

I might be to tired and drunk to do it now, but you and I are going to have to discuss the difference between non-intervention and isolationism.

[GKeeper316]

Karl, myself and "most experts" are still waiting on your list of said experts that blame republicans for the fiscal mess we're in.

You provide that list and we can move on from there. Until such time I sumbit that you're still full of ****, and will provide you with nothing, will not go out of my way to prove or disprove nothing, etc...

ok thanks for confiming your own determination to stay ignorant of the facts.

it isnt my job to educate you. you should actually want to do that yourself, in order to make a rational judgement about anything. i have very little sympathy for people who refuse to know as much as possible about a subject they wish to debate.

you wont go out of your way to disprove me, and im not at all inclined to provide you with facts that are more than readily available to anyone with the slightest bit of personal initiative.

you can consider yourself the winner. you win. im not going to argue this with you anymore. congratulations for your victory, you are far my better and i can only hope that one day i will be half as smart as you.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I might be to tired and drunk to do it now, but you and I are going to have to discuss the difference between non-intervention and isolationism.Why would you find that fun to discuss?

[SicEmBaylor]

I might be to tired and drunk to do it now, but you and I are going to have to discuss the difference between non-intervention and isolationism.

I've argued it until I'm blue in the face. It isn't the government's military duties we disagree with (I'm pretty sure we both agree the government's duty is to protect and defend these United States and its citizens)....what we disagree on is what constitutes "protecting and defending." For my part, I have no problem with killing those who are responsible for killing Americans or attacking us or our interests. Kill them dead. Every single one of them. What I don't believe in are "preventative" wars and this whole idea of spreading freedom/democracy and nation-building. We have ZERO business nation building especially in that part of the world.

Our military should kill our enemies and then get the hell out. Keeping 100,000 troops in a place for a decade while we attempt to Americanize and Democratize a place is just insane. Pure and absolute insanity.

[GKeeper316]

What I don't believe in are "preventative" wars and this whole idea of spreading freedom/democracy and nation-building. We have ZERO business nation building especially in that part of the world.



monroe doctrine says differently... the united states has a moral obligation to spread democracy throughout the world.

[SicEmBaylor]

monroe doctrine says differently... the united states has a moral obligation to spread democracy throughout the world.

Uh, that's not the Monroe doctrine. And, no, the United States does not have any sort of moral obligation to spread Democracy around the world. The entire concept wasn't even imagined until Wilson (it's the Wilson not the Monroe doctrine by the way), and even then it was wholly rejected by the American people.

[delhalew]

Why would you find that fun to discuss?

Talks we have had in the past have led me to believe that the line between them blurs from time to time for some of us who desire a strong military and feel defense is important.

[SicEmBaylor]

how is a national standard for english and math a political objective?

How is it not? Advocating stripping the states of their right to set educational standards and creating national standards has long been a major political objective of the left.

[delhalew]

Addressing all the above posts. With a Navy as strong as ours, it is possible to be anywhere in the world within 24 hours. We have the ability to be omnipresent. This is good, BUT we need to use this ability to protect our direct interests. It is not good business to insert ourselves were we don't belong. Allies are allies and support should not be out of the question. Nation building however is a BAD idea. We did it successfully once with Japan and now we think the whole world is our democratic stew.
The Constitution allows for the cultivation of a navy because the founders recognized it's importance for protecting commerce. This should tell us that they never intended we be isolationist.
Reagan had such success in the cold war because he knew diplomacy was the key, but you have to bargain from a position of strength. In part that was military strength, but it was even more about economic strength.
Some call Ron Paul an isolationist. He is not, he simply recognizes that having our military flung all across the globe is wasteful. As is borrowing money in order to dole out foreign aid.
That's all I'm saying.

[GKeeper316]

How is it not? Advocating stripping the states of their right to set educational standards and creating national standards has long been a major political objective of the left.

you cant politicize math and english. it isnt a bad thing to require the student of one state to know as much as the student in another state in areas that arent open to interperatation, such as math and english. 1+1 will always equal 2 and a gerund phrase is a gerund phrase in oklahoma and every other state in the union.

should there be national standards for history, economics, or underwater basket weaving? i dont think so. but when the kids in one state fall behind the kids in another state in basic grammar and arithmatic due to one state deciding to not be as stringent on academic standards, the states do thier future generations a disservice.

when my family moved to oklahoma from new mexico (dad was transferred to tinker) in the summer between my 7th and 8th grades, we had just finished reading a great western novel called shane. we didnt read that till 11th grade in oklahoma's public education system.

call me crazy, but that sort of educational disparity isnt something the residents of the state of oklahoma should be proud of.

[Leroy Lizard]

how is a national standard for english and math a political objective?

The federal government threatens to wipe out a state's educational funding if it doesn't adopt a set of standards, and you can't see the abuse of power?

Remember, participation in creating the standards wasn't even voluntary, since Obama threatened to withhold stimulus money if your state didn't participate. He then threatened your state if it didn't adopt them.

[GKeeper316]

o lizard i just saw your sig

tiger woods just signed an endorsment deal with toyota... neither one knows how to stop :P

[Leroy Lizard]

I really don't care.