Christians and Jews

[Collier11]

Someone who understands all of this better than I do, help me out here. Im trying to figure out the disconnect between Christians and Jews

Both believe in Jesus
Jesus was Jewish
Both believe in many of the key figures dating back to Biblical times as many were Jewish
Both believe many of the Biblical stories are true, if not all...im not certain with the Jews???


Christians believe anyone who comes to God will be saved
Jews believe that only the children of Israel will be saved???

Im not trying to start an argument here, im just truly curious. Jews believe in God but are very clear that they are NOT Christians as their belief in God is quite different but I have also read that some Jews and Christians believe that their God is different from the others God

Also, Both believe in Judgment (although different versions) while I dont think Jews believe in Heaven and Hell as actual places in our afterlife

Even with all of this, the United States (A Christian Nation) sees it as abundantly important to protect Israel

[Leroy Lizard]

You have opened up a discussion that will never end.

I think the major difference is that Jews did not believe Jesus was the Son of God. Jesus definitely did, so that would make him the first Christian, I guess.

The fact that Jews were involved in Jesus' death has a lot to do with the animosity between the two religions.

[Collier11]

thats fine, the more actual info that comes into this thread the better I can understand what im looking for

I also think that it has been proven over and over again that the Jews werent responsible for the death of Jesus

[Leroy Lizard]

I also think that it has been proven over and over again that the Jews werent responsible for the death of Jesus

I'm no religious historian, so I'll let others handle this. Wikipedia has the following entry which makes for some interesting reading. Is it accurate? Not sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus

[Collier11]

I shouldve said, everything that ive ever studied about the topic, Jesus wasnt killed by the Jews...I realize it is still a hot button topic

[Crucifax Autumn]

You left out the Muslims. Thye share all the same traits and beliefs thet Jews and Christians have in common.

[GKeeper316]

judaism, christianity and islam all worship the same god of abraham.

jews do not believe christ was the messiah, and are still waiting for theirs. muslims believe christ was a prophet, but not the messiah or the son of god.

the reason we are such strong allies with israel has very little to do with religion, despite what the muslim community propegates. its because for the longest time, israel was the only democracy in the middle east (and may still be... i put very little faith in the "democratic" process in palestine), and in accordance with the truman amendment to the monroe doctrine, the united states has a moral obligation to support and defend democracies everywhere in the world.

[GKeeper316]

I shouldve said, everything that ive ever studied about the topic, Jesus wasnt killed by the Jews...I realize it is still a hot button topic

well that all depends on who you talk to. it was the jewish patriarchs of the temple who had the romans arrest him. whether or not they thought pontius pilate would have him executed for his continued disturbances is the real topic for debate. it is very likely they thought the romans would give him some lashes, tell him to shape up, and send him on his way.

however the people were given a choice... pilate offered to free jesus, or a robin hood type local hero named barabbus as a gift during the feast of passover, and the people chose barabbus.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Just because "jewish patriarchs" turned him in doesn't mean "The Jews" did it. That's like saying that since "A Christian" blew up the federal building "The Christians" did it. It's flawed logic and gets tested in every IQ test ever devised, but they call the Jews and Christians Widhets and ****.

[SunnySooner]

Since the death and resurrection of Jesus was the plan when He was sent to us in human form, I don't think it was anyone's "fault". He came here to teach, fulfill prophecy, set up a church, die and rise again as proof of His power over death and to show us that as believers we can have eternal life. There is no fault, that is what He intended to happen.

Jews are a race of people, and as such, can have any beliefs they want--Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, whatever. Just like anyone can become a part of the Jewish faith thru conversion. The faith and the race are two separate things.

[GKeeper316]

Just because "jewish patriarchs" turned him in doesn't mean "The Jews" did it. That's like saying that since "A Christian" blew up the federal building "The Christians" did it. It's flawed logic and gets tested in every IQ test ever devised, but they call the Jews and Christians Widhets and ****.

i never said they did... if you'll go back and read my post i said that it was very likely the patriarchs thought pilate would give him a somewhat lenient sentence, tell him to tone back his anti-establishment ways, and send him on his way.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Oh...You misunderstand. I was agreeing with you. Hard to believe on the SO I know! lol

[Okla-homey]

Someone who understands all of this better than I do, help me out here. Im trying to figure out the disconnect between Christians and Jews

Christians believe anyone who comes to God will be saved


Not to nit-pick, but Christians, based on Scripture, believe that anyone who accepts Christ as their Savior, and acknowedges His sacrificial death in atonement for each and every sin they ever committed, or ever will commit, are saved. People who don't, well, the Bible is pretty clear... are toast. Literally.

Now, that may seem pretty extreme, and some folks say, "would a loving God consign folks to eternal damnation who were, on the whole, pretty decent folks, but never accepted Christ as their Savior?"

The answer is, God, because He is a loving and merciful God, sent His Son, in the flesh, to die for everyone ever to be born. And from that day forward, everyone has a fire escape. They need only choose to accept it. That's pretty loving, merciful and gracious if you ask me.

[Okla-homey]

well that all depends on who you talk to. it was the jewish patriarchs of the temple who had the romans arrest him. whether or not they thought pontius pilate would have him executed for his continued disturbances is the real topic for debate. it is very likely they thought the romans would give him some lashes, tell him to shape up, and send him on his way.

however the people were given a choice... pilate offered to free jesus, or a robin hood type local hero named barabbus as a gift during the feast of passover, and the people chose barabbus.

Please. Use. The shift key. At least occasionally.

[OklahomaTuba]

Even with all of this, the United States (A Christian Nation) sees it as abundantly important to protect IsraelI believe we recently fought a couple of wars to protect and liberate several muslim nations as well (KOSA, Kuwait, Iraq, Afganistan)

[PDXsooner]

Not to nit-pick, but Christians, based on Scripture, believe that anyone who accepts Christ as their Savior, and acknowedges His sacrificial death in atonement for each and every sin they ever committed, or ever will commit, are saved. People who don't, well, the Bible is pretty clear... are toast. Literally.
.

i asked two christian pastors here (one methodist and one united church of christ) if they believed that and they both said no. they both told me that they learned about god and god's love through the teachings of christ and that is why they call themselves christian.

i think what you are saying is a more fundamental interpretation of what christians are. i'm not saying it's right or wrong, honestly i'm not a christian, but i'm interested in the discussion.

either way, i recognize there's no answer to the question of what a christian actually is. it's a matter of interpretation. but there are a lot of christians out there who call themselves christian but don't believe in that statement.

[swardboy]

To the original question:
Jesus claims to be the fulfillment of the Jewish Old Covenant with God. At the cross that covenant, with its claims for human performance, was "paid in full" by His death, and the new covenant of Grace was ushered in. Thus he was "Messiah", the long-awaited savior first alluded to in Genesis 3:15.

Betrayed by his disciple Judas, into the hands of a jealous Jewish hierarchy (which was empowered by Rome), Jesus went through illegal hearings on the trumped up charge that he claimed to be "king" (an act of rebellion against Caesar) and "the son of God" (an act of blasphemy according to his accusers).

The Roman prefect Pontius Pilate was put into the "politically correct" position of having to do away with Jesus, though he felt personally there was no fault in him.

The disconnect between the Jews and Jesus was put this way by David Ben-Gurion: The Jewish leaders of Jesus' day did not accept him as "messiah", therefore the nation does not accept him to this day.

Remarkably, many priests accepted Jesus, who were contemporaneous with his life, death, and resurrection. Only belief in His resurrection could prompt their response.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Simple, Jesus was the son of God as told in the Old Testament prophecies according to Christians.

The Jewish religion (not the people) believes this is not true and are still waiting. Jesus was a prophet, nothing more.

Muslims think Jesus was a prophet as well. Remember, Muslims think Ishmael is the true descendant of Abraham as he was the first son born. Muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael. In the Christian and Jewish Bible everything follows Isaac as he was the Abraham's first son by his wife. Jesus was the descendant of Isaac.

[OhU1]

Jews are a race of people, and as such, can have any beliefs they want--Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, whatever. Just like anyone can become a part of the Jewish faith thru conversion. The faith and the race are two separate things.

Jews are not a "race". This is an antiquated notion that does not hold up to any modern definition of what a race is.

Race is a genetic distinction, and refers to people with shared ancestry and shared genetic traits.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Race is a genetic distinction, and refers to people with shared ancestry and shared genetic traits.

Like...the descendant of Abraham's son Isaac?

[Okla-homey]

i asked two christian pastors here (one methodist and one united church of christ) if they believed that and they both said no. they both told me that they learned about god and god's love through the teachings of christ and that is why they call themselves christian.



IMHO, calling oneself a Christian and not subscribing to a core belief as laid down by Christ Himself are mutually exclusive. To believe otherwise, namely, that salvation is possible without acceptance of Christ's act in atonement for sin, is to belittle and disrespect said sacrifice and disavows Christ's divinity.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Theologically, I believe the Jews do not believe that "Christ" has come and are still waiting for him. Christians, OTH, are awaiting the second coming as are the Muslims (only is another form).

[OhU1]

Like...the descendant of Abraham's son Isaac?

So a biological race of people can be created in 2 or 3 thousand years? Would the muslims be the same "race" as the jews then? Or are they cousins so they are too distant?

Is my family its own race? We are biologically related.

Jews are not a race anymore than freemasons.

[Collier11]

Not to nit-pick, but Christians, based on Scripture, believe that anyone who accepts Christ as their Savior, and acknowedges His sacrificial death in atonement for each and every sin they ever committed, or ever will commit, are saved. People who don't, well, the Bible is pretty clear... are toast. Literally.



Thats what I meant by "those who come to God"

[Collier11]

i asked two christian pastors here (one methodist and one united church of christ) if they believed that and they both said no. they both told me that they learned about god and god's love through the teachings of christ and that is why they call themselves christian.

i think what you are saying is a more fundamental interpretation of what christians are. i'm not saying it's right or wrong, honestly i'm not a christian, but i'm interested in the discussion.

either way, i recognize there's no answer to the question of what a christian actually is. it's a matter of interpretation. but there are a lot of christians out there who call themselves christian but don't believe in that statement.

I went to a Methodist church for several years and they believed the same as all other Christians...what part did these pastors tell you they didnt agree with?

[Collier11]

To the original question:
Jesus claims to be the fulfillment of the Jewish Old Covenant with God. At the cross that covenant, with its claims for human performance, was "paid in full" by His death, and the new covenant of Grace was ushered in. Thus he was "Messiah", the long-awaited savior first alluded to in Genesis 3:15.

Betrayed by his disciple Judas, into the hands of a jealous Jewish hierarchy (which was empowered by Rome), Jesus went through illegal hearings on the trumped up charge that he claimed to be "king" (an act of rebellion against Caesar) and "the son of God" (an act of blasphemy according to his accusers).

The Roman prefect Pontius Pilate was put into the "politically correct" position of having to do away with Jesus, though he felt personally there was no fault in him.

The disconnect between the Jews and Jesus was put this way by David Ben-Gurion: The Jewish leaders of Jesus' day did not accept him as "messiah", therefore the nation does not accept him to this day.

Remarkably, many priests accepted Jesus, who were contemporaneous with his life, death, and resurrection. Only belief in His resurrection could prompt their response.

So then, the disconnect does go all the way back to Biblical times and is connected to his arrest? This is what im curious about???

[Collier11]

So a biological race of people can be created in 2 or 3 thousand years? Would the muslims be the same "race" as the jews then? Or are they cousins so they are too distant?

Is my family its own race? We are biologically related.

Jews are not a race anymore than freemasons.

Here is a quote I found for this question


"Jewish people, are a nation and ethnoreligious group originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East. The Jewish ethnicity, nationality, and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation"

[OhU1]

Yeah Collier, that is a better definition. I remember being taught that Jews were a race when I was a kid. As if they were somehow biologically different.

Race really isn't even valid in the biological sciences. The sooner that the notion of "race" is thrown on the scrap heap of history the better it will be for humanity.

[PDXsooner]

I went to a Methodist church for several years and they believed the same as all other Christians...what part did these pastors tell you they didnt agree with?

that christ was the only way to god. he didn't believe that. he said he felt christ was one way to god but there were many. he didn't pass judgment on other religions, he said that he didn't agree with the fact that accepting christ as the son of god and as the messiah was not a requirement to get to heaven.

btw, it was the united methodist church.

[Oldnslo]

I believe that Jesus of Nazareth was just another rabbi. He was no more the son of God than you or I. He was not the messiah; he was not The Christ.

Any Jew--Reform, Conservative, or Orthodox; Saphardic or Ashkenazi--would give the same answer.

The guy had some really good ideas, and the world would almost certainly be better off if people spent more time trying to live up to his example than arguing over nuances in his words, but that's the case with a whole bunch of rabbis.

Through discussions with Christian friends, I've discovered that other differences between the teachings of Jesus and of Judaism are fairly close, with some things emphasized over others, or some slightly different conclusions, but that One Big Thing is, in my view, the key.

[Collier11]

that christ was the only way to god. he didn't believe that. he said he felt christ was one way to god but there were many. he didn't pass judgment on other religions, he said that he didn't agree with the fact that accepting christ as the son of god and as the messiah was not a requirement to get to heaven.

btw, it was the united methodist church.

well for one, Methodist isnt a religion its a denomination (christianity is a religion) and I may be wrong but everything ive ever been taught is that if you are a Christian you believe that there is one way to reach Heaven...again, I could be wrong

[Oldnslo]

FWIW, I've never really understood why Christians don't think they have to follow the laws of Leviticus. The closest answer I've heard is that Jesus came to "fulfill" the law, but that doesn't make any sense to me. "Fulfilling" a law takes it off the books?

[swardboy]

"Fulfilling the law" in the new testament sense means fulfilling all it's obligations. Paul said the law was given to reveal sin, and man's inability to be perfect under the law (o.t.). Christ fulfilled the o.t. laws obligations in his sinless life so that we may be under "grace": Made sinless through his substitutionary death.

[swardboy]

So then, the disconnect does go all the way back to Biblical times and is connected to his arrest? This is what im curious about???

"He came unto His own, and His own accepted Him not."

Now keep in mind that the first Christians were Jews, but the nation rejected Him as Messiah. The apostle Paul always went to the Jewish synagogues whenever his missionary journeys took him to a new town, in order to fulfull the biblical admonition that the message of Jesus come to "the Jew first", and then he went to the greek/gentile population...usually after being rejected by the synagogue as a whole.

[swardboy]

The biblical narrative says that Abraham was the father of the arab race through Ishmael (son by Sara's handmaiden)...arabs agree with this. Then, Abraham was the father of the semitic race (hebrews) through Isaac (son by Sara, and fulfillment of God's promise that through his seed all the nations of the earth would be blessed).

Then Paul demonstrated in Galatians that the "seed" is a singular, not plural, word...whose fulfullment is in Jesus: We are all children of Abraham by faith in Jesus Christ, through Whom we are baptized into this spiritual family...Gal. 3:27. It is no longer a racial recognition. It is a spiritual one.

[Chuck Bao]

Oldnslo, some of my Jewish friends claim that Jesus wasn't a rabbi. They say that he was a heretic or he didn't exist at all.

I am not anti-semitic. Okay, I am, slightly. I am not so loving on the wars and hate generated over countless generations. Arabs are Semitic, are they not?

If Judasim is a religion then I respect that. If being a Jew is a race and the claims of being God's chosen people, I am not on board with that idea.

Anyway, if you look at our genetics, God's people came from Africa, not the Middle East.

[Collier11]

I am not anti-semitic. Okay, I am, slightly. .

This is somewhat hypocritical Chuck, for someone who often has to deal with issues of acceptance and people looking down on your decisions and beliefs it shocks me that you would come out and say something so ignorant and hateful. Please explain cus it seems like you are lumping a whole group of people into that one statement

[Okla-homey]

FWIW, I've never really understood why Christians don't think they have to follow the laws of Leviticus. The closest answer I've heard is that Jesus came to "fulfill" the law, but that doesn't make any sense to me. "Fulfilling" a law takes it off the books?

Nutshell. As to levitical laws applicability to Gentiles converted to Christianity, read Acts 15:28 -29. We can't; 1) touch things sacrificed to idols; 2) can't eat or drink blood, including meat from animals that were strangled and thus not bled out; 3) have illicit sex (fornication).

Added to that of course are the "Big Ten" handed down through Moses which also apply.

Other than those, we're good to go. Which is good, because I love shellfish and pork.;)

[Chuck Bao]

I have never hidden that or even kept silent about it. It is hateful, judgemental, I know, but I would never live in a Muslim country, particularly in an Arabic country.

My ancestors came from Germany and France (through Britain for some of them). They were probably running around naked and worshipping the Mother Goddess, who strangely resembles the Chinese version of the Buddha.

I don't think my ancestors were lost or out of the loop or not chosen to be God's people. That was JM's point about the Clovis people.

I have also made it clear here in numerous threads about my Baptist missionary cousins out in the field and how it seems insulting to me, at least, that they are telling the natives that their father didn't know God, their grandfather didn't nor did anyone in their culture going back thousands of years.

If that is offensive to anyone, then I am sorry.

[Collier11]

I think there is a difference between saying you wouldnt want to live somewhere and being a jew hater...maybe you misspoke?

[C&CDean]

Nah, I think he was talking about people who are prejudiced against gays Chuck and your adamant foul opinion of said folks. So what I think he's saying is "shame on you for hating a particular group when you expect everyone to love your group." Of course I could be wrong.

[Chuck Bao]

Nutshell. As to levitical laws applicability to Gentiles converted to Christianity, read Acts 15:28 -29. We can't; 1) touch things sacrificed to idols; 2) can't eat or drink blood, including meat from animals that were strangled and thus not bled out; 3) have illicit sex (fornication).

Added to that of course are the "Big Ten" handed down through Moses which also apply.

Other than those, we're good to go. Which is good, because I love shellfish and pork.;)

I love coagulated pork and chicken blood. Are you telling me that I can't enjoy this? Bummer.

[Collier11]

Nah, I think he was talking about people who are prejudiced against gays Chuck and your adamant foul opinion of said folks. So what I think he's saying is "shame on you for hating a particular group when you expect everyone to love your group." Of course I could be wrong.

No, youre right...thats why Im asking him instead of accusing him, I figured maybe he just misspoke

[C&CDean]

And just so it's clear, I wouldn't live in a muslim country either.

[Collier11]

nor would I but im certainly not a hater of Muslim people

[C&CDean]

I can't lie. Other than a few I know and work with, I pretty much hate all those bastards. I'd feel differently if they'd band together and wipe out the "cancer" that Homey was referring to themselves.

If Baptists were destroying the world and killing thousands and thousands of innocent people I'd hate them too.

[C&CDean]

And don't a single one of you moronic PC fags say "what about the Crusades?" Besides, those were the damn Catholics and everybody knows how ****ed up those guys are.

[Chuck Bao]

I think there is a difference between saying you wouldnt want to live somewhere and being a jew hater...maybe you misspoke?

I didn't mispeak, but thanks for offering me the benefit of the doubt. So seriously you are not a little bit put off just a little by Jews claiming that your ancestors were not part of God's chosen people? Then there is that Old Testament God who was so vengeful and ready to kill everyone not in their tribe. Then, there is the lack of any historic supporting evidence that any of it actually took place.

On the other hand, I love the fact that these people kept their faith and worship of the Lord despite hardships and persecutions. European history is repleat with perscutions way before the Holocaust. The travels and diaspora of the Jewish people is one of the great stories of mankind and faith. I am not going to discount the value of my own ancestors, but I am not going to discount theirs either.

[JLEW1818]

If the Jews don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah. and Jesus is the leader of the Jews. Does Jesus not believe in himself?

:D :D :D


Jesus was the first Christian. That is the way i look at it.

[Chuck Bao]

And don't a single one of you moronic PC fags say "what about the Crusades?" Besides, those were the damn Catholics and everybody knows how ****ed up those guys are.

Now, I didn't see that until after I posted. Knock me up as a PC fag.

[PDXsooner]

well for one, Methodist isnt a religion its a denomination (christianity is a religion)

Did I imply otherwise? Didn't mean to. Either way, it's probably why there are so many denominations...there's so much to quibble and disagree about, yet no way to really come to a common agreement.

[JLEW1818]

baptist is the most correct

;)

[Chuck Bao]

Nah, I think he was talking about people who are prejudiced against gays Chuck and your adamant foul opinion of said folks. So what I think he's saying is "shame on you for hating a particular group when you expect everyone to love your group." Of course I could be wrong.

If I didn't know better, Dean, I'd say that you are trying to talk with a dick in your mouth. It kinda sounded that way.

Thankfully, revisionist history is being updated and some kernels of truth are gradually coming out. It may offend some people but that is not about hate or feeling of self worth or religion.

[Leroy Lizard]

baptist is the most correct

I heard the Baptists latest theme song. LAME! How can anyone walk into a church with that horrible intro playing and expect to give all to their Savior??

[royalfan5]

baptist is the most correct

;)

No, Lutherans are.

[Leroy Lizard]

So in a tie between the Baptists, Pentacostals, and Lutherans, who goes to Heaven?

[delhalew]

I married into a family of Jehovah's witnesses, and was shocked to learn that HEAVEN IS FULL! :o

[ndpruitt03]

LOL @ those that call Christ the first Christian. He's the origin for the religion. His followers were the first Christians.

And we really can't know who is more right. For all we know we are all going to hell for believing whatever we believe.

[Leroy Lizard]

So all Christian denominations get in? ****! Why don't we just hand everyone a freakin' medal too, like the Special Olympics? Why even keep score at all?

[SicEmBaylor]

Not to nit-pick, but Christians, based on Scripture, believe that anyone who accepts Christ as their Savior, and acknowedges His sacrificial death in atonement for each and every sin they ever committed, or ever will commit, are saved. People who don't, well, the Bible is pretty clear... are toast. Literally.

Now, that may seem pretty extreme, and some folks say, "would a loving God consign folks to eternal damnation who were, on the whole, pretty decent folks, but never accepted Christ as their Savior?"

The answer is, God, because He is a loving and merciful God, sent His Son, in the flesh, to die for everyone ever to be born. And from that day forward, everyone has a fire escape. They need only choose to accept it. That's pretty loving, merciful and gracious if you ask me.

Insanity is more like it.

[JLEW1818]

lol fine, Jesus is the leader of the Christians. I guess you could make a case that Mary was the first "christian"

and i know I'm going to heaven, being a christian. I believe in the bible. and John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

this does not necessarily say your going to heaven, but it does say you will have eternal life.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

assuming the Father, "also" Jesus is in heaven.




this all assuming that the bible is correct. Which i do.

If you don't, then its meaningless to you.

[Leroy Lizard]

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

That settles that.

[JLEW1818]

that single verse is why i don't understand the Catholic-Christian faith.

They think you can "pray to marry"

or pray to saints

or pray for people after they are dead, like it will better their chances to get to heaven.

In my opinion, when you die, you go straight to heaven, or straight to hell. end of story



(if i offend anybody please let me know and i will stop, I'm not trying to do that. Christianity is all faith. if you don't believe in it, none of this is true to you, nor applies to you.)

[Okla-homey]

I love coagulated pork and chicken blood. Are you telling me that I can't enjoy this? Bummer.

Hey, Germans make a sausage from coagulated blood called blutwurst, but that's a no-go. I've tasted it. It tastes like a enormous boiled scab to me.

[ndpruitt03]

that single verse is why i don't understand the Catholic-Christian faith.

They think you can "pray to marry"

or pray to saints

or pray for people after they are dead, like it will better their chances to get to heaven.

In my opinion, when you die, you go straight to heaven, or straight to hell. end of story



(if i offend anybody please let me know and i will stop, I'm not trying to do that. Christianity is all faith. if you don't believe in it, none of this is true to you, nor applies to you.)

Good points, can't really disagree with what you believe. But what about billions of Muslims, or Hindus or Buddhist. Who is do say of these religions are all going to hell because they don't believe in Jesus? I am a little more objective in saying that there's no way we can know for sure which one is right or if they are all right or all wrong. There's gotta be some middle ground.

[Leroy Lizard]

In my opinion, when you die, you go straight to heaven, or straight to hell. end of story

Next you will be telling us that our prayers for missed field goals and foul shots go unanswered.

[swardboy]

Baptists don't believe in baptism. How lame is that?

[royalfan5]

So in a tie between the Baptists, Pentacostals, and Lutherans, who goes to Heaven?

No matter how it works out, the Lutherans will believe they are the only ones there.

[SunnySooner]

Baptists don't believe in baptism. How lame is that?

Huh? Every Baptist church I've ever been in, and that's a lot, has a huge baptistry in the front. They don't believe in infant baptism--is that what you meant? Cause I was baptized. And I mean dunked ALL the way under the water, none of that sprinkling deal. But you have to profess to be a Christian before you can be baptized, and kids don't need it, cause they get an automatic pass to heaven until they're old enough to make a decision one way or the other.

[JLEW1818]

Good points, can't really disagree with what you believe. But what about billions of Muslims, or Hindus or Buddhist. Who is do say of these religions are all going to hell because they don't believe in Jesus? I am a little more objective in saying that there's no way we can know for sure which one is right or if they are all right or all wrong. There's gotta be some middle ground.

I take real serious the one religion saying if your not a "believer" you go to hell and burn..

what do you have to lose by being a True Christian believer?

(not directed towards you)

[JLEW1818]

Baptists don't believe in baptism. How lame is that?

baptist don't believe in baptism as infants. Another pointless "tradition." In my opinion. Lots do it just as dedication. It does not determine anything with Christ, or God. It means nothing to him.

You don't even have to be baptized in my opinion, to reach heaven. My denomination chooses not to baptist until the "person" reaches the appropriate age where he can accept Christ. Then gets baptized, if chosen to do so.

[Scott D]

Old n Slo is the only one right here, that is all.

[ndpruitt03]

I take real serious the one religion saying if your not a "believer" you go to hell and burn..

what do you have to lose by being a True Christian believer?

(not directed towards you)
What do you have to lose by being any other religion? You do realize that Muslim's are probably going to outnumber Christians real soon. Probably in the next decade or so.

[JLEW1818]

by not being christian, u have the chance of going to hell.

according to me and my bible.

I don't know where non-Muslims go, according to Muslims. and could careless for any relgion that thinks by blowing up US buildings, they then will get peace with their god and have hundreds of virgins to bang.


and when Muslims do take over the world, it will end soon after.

[Turd_Ferguson]

What do you have to lose by being any other religion? You do realize that Muslim's are probably going to outnumber Christians real soon. Probably in the next decade or so.Good thing the world ends in 2012.

[PDXsooner]

by not being christian, u have the chance of going to hell.

.

belief in something because you're scared of the consequences if you don't believe it...don't know if that's enough to make me believe, but whatever floats your boat.

[SicEmBaylor]

The Bible is a great collection of parables and gives us a great guide for how to treat others. But should it be taken literally word for word? No. That's my opinion. It was written by and translated over the years by men who are not only fallible but had their own beliefs that influenced their interpratations of the Bible.

Everyone is free to believe what they want, but if you honestly take the Bible as the absolute truth word-for-word then I guess that's a level of faith that I'll never understand. Believing that seems to fly in the face of all logic and rational thought. I believe God gave us the ability to reason and think rationally for a reason and to disregard it because of the wild stories of men whose sanity or motives can't be verified is just crazy in my opinion.

I also believe Jesus was a great man that taught humanity a lot about caring, forgiveness, and how to treat others. But, do I believe he was born of a virgin birth or that he came back to life and could turn water into wine? No.

I certainly don't believe you have to worship the guy or be condemned to eternal damnation. And the idea that anyone who doesn't goes to some other world with fire and brimstone is tantamount to lunacy.

God is a just being and your reward in the hereafter is proportional to how you lived on Earth. That's what I believe at least.

[JohnnyMack]

Jews don't recognize Jesus as the Son of God.

Protestants don't recognize the legitimacy of the Pope.

Baptists don't recognize each other at the liquor store.

[PDXsooner]

The Bible is a great collection of parables and gives us a great guide for how to treat others. But should it be taken literally word for word? No. That's my opinion. It was written by and translated over the years by men who are not only fallible but had their own beliefs that influenced their interpratations of the Bible.

Everyone is free to believe what they want, but if you honestly take the Bible as the absolute truth word-for-word then I guess that's a level of faith that I'll never understand. Believing that seems to fly in the face of all logic and rational thought. I believe God gave us the ability to reason and think rationally for a reason and to disregard it because of the wild stories of men whose sanity or motives can't be verified is just crazy in my opinion.

I also believe Jesus was a great man that taught humanity a lot about caring, forgiveness, and how to treat others. But, do I believe he was born of a virgin birth or that he came back to life and could turn water into wine? No.

I certainly don't believe you have to worship the guy or be condemned to eternal damnation. And the idea that anyone who doesn't goes to some other world with fire and brimstone is tantamount to lunacy.

God is a just being and your reward in the hereafter is proportional to how you lived on Earth. That's what I believe at least.

well said

[Collier11]

The Bible is a great collection of parables and gives us a great guide for how to treat others. But should it be taken literally word for word? No. That's my opinion. It was written by and translated over the years by men who are not only fallible but had their own beliefs that influenced their interpratations of the Bible.

Everyone is free to believe what they want, but if you honestly take the Bible as the absolute truth word-for-word then I guess that's a level of faith that I'll never understand. Believing that seems to fly in the face of all logic and rational thought. I believe God gave us the ability to reason and think rationally for a reason and to disregard it because of the wild stories of men whose sanity or motives can't be verified is just crazy in my opinion.

I also believe Jesus was a great man that taught humanity a lot about caring, forgiveness, and how to treat others. But, do I believe he was born of a virgin birth or that he came back to life and could turn water into wine? No.

I certainly don't believe you have to worship the guy or be condemned to eternal damnation. And the idea that anyone who doesn't goes to some other world with fire and brimstone is tantamount to lunacy.

God is a just being and your reward in the hereafter is proportional to how you lived on Earth. That's what I believe at least.

One question SicEm as we are mostly on the same page but I do ask you this, there is physical and recorded proof of the resurrection of Jesus, what do you make of that?

[GKeeper316]

And don't a single one of you moronic PC fags say "what about the Crusades?" Besides, those were the damn Catholics and everybody knows how ****ed up those guys are.

because the catholics own the exclusitivity on using god to propegate evil?

salem witch trials had no catholics involved last time i checked.

[GKeeper316]

One question SicEm as we are mostly on the same page but I do ask you this, there is physical and recorded proof of the resurrection of Jesus, what do you make of that?

not sicem, but ill take this one...

not only is there no recorded proof of christ's resurrection, there's also no evidence he ever actually lived, either.

[PDXsooner]

history has no shortage of people using religion to do evil. i doubt there's a religion immune to these doings.

[A Sooner in Texas]

The Bible is a great collection of parables and gives us a great guide for how to treat others. But should it be taken literally word for word? No. That's my opinion. It was written by and translated over the years by men who are not only fallible but had their own beliefs that influenced their interpratations of the Bible.

Everyone is free to believe what they want, but if you honestly take the Bible as the absolute truth word-for-word then I guess that's a level of faith that I'll never understand. Believing that seems to fly in the face of all logic and rational thought. I believe God gave us the ability to reason and think rationally for a reason and to disregard it because of the wild stories of men whose sanity or motives can't be verified is just crazy in my opinion.

I also believe Jesus was a great man that taught humanity a lot about caring, forgiveness, and how to treat others. But, do I believe he was born of a virgin birth or that he came back to life and could turn water into wine? No.

I certainly don't believe you have to worship the guy or be condemned to eternal damnation. And the idea that anyone who doesn't goes to some other world with fire and brimstone is tantamount to lunacy.

God is a just being and your reward in the hereafter is proportional to how you lived on Earth. That's what I believe at least.

I agree completely with your second-to-last statement. There are many "Christians" - those who profess to believe in Christ as the Son of God, and who are sure to let everyone know they are devout church-goers - who treat their fellow man like ****.

I believe in God; whether he is God, Buddha, Vishnu, Mohammed (no fatwas for writing his name, please), Christ, etc., I don't know. Perhaps he is actually all of them. If God is everything and everywhere, there is that possibility. That's one reason I don't discount the possibility that there is life somewhere else in the universe. We limit God if we completely rule it out.

You can believe all you want in whatever you want, but it means absolutely nothing if you don't treat your fellow beings - human and otherwise - with respect. And yeah, I'm no vegetarian; I believe God gave us dominion over the animals and meant for us to use them for our survival, including as food. But they can be killed humanely for that purpose, and treated humanely up until that moment.

[PDXsooner]

One question SicEm as we are mostly on the same page but I do ask you this, there is physical and recorded proof of the resurrection of Jesus, what do you make of that?

what you consider proof is probably very open to interpretation. when i was living in kuwait i had a muslim guy cutting my hair telling me how he knew christ wasn't the messiah because some of his remains were discovered and surely a messiah would not have any human remains left behind.

he assumed that i was christian because i was american, then i told him "hey not only can i not prove you wrong, i don't really care because i don't think he's the messiah either"...he didn't know how to react, he probably thought i was one of satan's children.

[Collier11]

not sicem, but ill take this one...

not only is there no recorded proof of christ's resurrection, there's also no evidence he ever actually lived, either.


incorrect

[Collier11]

what you consider proof is probably very open to interpretation. when i was living in kuwait i had a muslim guy cutting my hair telling me how he knew christ wasn't the messiah because some of his remains were discovered and surely a messiah would not have any human remains left behind.

he assumed that i was christian because i was american, then i told him "hey not only can i not prove you wrong, i don't really care because i don't think he's the messiah either"...he didn't know how to react, he probably thought i was one of satan's children.

there is just as much proof of the life of Jesus as there is Pilate or Herod or any of them. Now some can question the history and proof if they choose

[PDXsooner]

incorrect

correct

[Collier11]

this ^ :D

[GKeeper316]

show me... and dont bother with josephus... anything atributed to josephus concerning jesus was proven to be fake about 200 years ago.

[Collier11]

Im not going to get into what is true and what isnt, there is a ton of evidence that Jesus existed...its your choice if you believe it or not. If you dont, thats your decision

[SCOUT]

not sicem, but ill take this one...

not only is there no recorded proof of christ's resurrection, there's also no evidence he ever actually lived, either.

You make Tacitus sad

[ndpruitt03]

The only actual 100% evidence anyone can have that Jesus existed is their own faith. That's all a believer really needs.

[Collier11]

is there actual 100% evidence that you or I exist?

[Scott D]

there's tons of evidence that nickleback is one of the top 100 rock groups of all times, it doesn't mean it's true. :D

[Collier11]

Really fun band, not Great

[Leroy Lizard]

I like Chevelle better. (Not the car)

[GKeeper316]

1) nickleback sucks donkey balls

2) of the 2 dozen or so historians operating during the time of christ, not a single one of them mentions a jewish social reformer named yeshua or joshua. not one. and getting publicly executed during the time of passover in the middle of jerusalem is something that an historian would have recorded.

[GKeeper316]

I like Chevelle better. (Not the car)

sad to say, but i like chevelle as well. mostly for the awesome bass lines.

[Collier11]

try a different name

[GKeeper316]

why would i try a different name?

[Collier11]

well, you could try Jesus or Yahweh or yesua or yehosua

[Collier11]

There are several historical records of Jesus, the main one being The Bible and there are several more on top of that so either you dont want to believe or you do, either way, its your call

[GKeeper316]

dude im done with you. if you want to know, just google the **** for yourself, read up (theres tons of logical well written and cited sources for you to pick from) and make up your own mind...

and whoever said tacitus needs to learn more about tacitus' works. he mentions christ (as Christus) in book 15 of his Annals, the earliest surviving copy of which is dated in the eleventh century, over a thousand years after christ lived, and in a time before the printing press when the only books or other written works came from abbeys populated by monks.

the first words of the bible are In the beginning, not someone should really write this **** down and make sure it survives, untouched, through the ages so that all may know the truth.

[GKeeper316]

There are several historical records of Jesus, the main one being The Bible and there are several more on top of that so either you dont want to believe or you do, either way, its your call

the bible isnt proof of anything other than some crusty old men can get together and decide how christ will be viewed and vote on which gospels they'd like to include and which they will forever brand as herecy to read... like the gospel of mary magdalene and the gospel of st. thomas. there are over eighty gospels that were intentionally left out of the new testament.

if you want to believe in god, thats fine. more power to you. you have the right to think and believe whatever you want.

ill continue to believe that god is as real as a flying toaster. and all the evidence and logic is on my side.

[SicEmBaylor]

I think Jesus was almost certainly a real person. I believe most historians agree as well. Believing he was a real person does not necessarily mean you accept the fact that he was of a virgin birth and the son of God.

That, in fact, is where Jews part company with Christians. They believe Jesus existed (as do the Muslims) and that he was prophet/messenger from God, but they don't believe he was the Messiah.

[Collier11]

dude im done with you. if you want to know, just google the **** for yourself, read up (theres tons of logical well written and cited sources for you to pick from) and make up your own mind...

and whoever said tacitus needs to learn more about tacitus' works. he mentions christ (as Christus) in book 15 of his Annals, the earliest surviving copy of which is dated in the eleventh century, over a thousand years after christ lived, and in a time before the printing press when the only books or other written works came from abbeys populated by monks.

the first words of the bible are In the beginning, not someone should really write this **** down and make sure it survives, untouched, through the ages so that all may know the truth.

as usual, you have no facts to back up your hateful statements so you throw a temper tantrum...cya later

[Collier11]

I think Jesus was almost certainly a real person. I believe most historians agree as well. Believing he was a real person does not necessarily mean you accept the fact that he was of a virgin birth and the son of God.

That, in fact, is where Jews part company with Christians. They believe Jesus existed (as do the Muslims) and that he was prophet/messenger from God, but they don't believe he was the Messiah.

You cant possibly be a Christian if you dont believe Jesus was a real person who lived, died, and was resurrected

[Crucifax Autumn]

It's actually relatively well established that Jesus existed. It's also well established that it was a common name of the time, so not every piece of evidence out there refers to THE Jesus. In addition there were dozens of people of Jewish descent wandering and preaching while claiming to be the Messiah at the time. Thanks to all that it's a silly argument to even attempt in light of the small number of historical texts, the commonality of the name, the number of messiahs wandering the same area, and the existence of a dozen or so other religions that feature a virgin birth, 3 wisemen, a star guiding the way, the importance of astrological/astronomical events in all of them, etc.

Just the virgin birth part shows up constantly in world religion and mythology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_birth_(mythology)

Interestingly, Chrstianity is the most recent of these births.

Point being there is enough information out there for believers to claim it's irrefutable that Christ is real and was the son of God. Conversely, that same information can make another person say it's proof that it's all bullsh*t.

In other words, this argument is idiotic across the board.

[Crucifax Autumn]

You cant possibly be a Christian if you dont believe Jesus was a real person who lived, died, and was resurrected

You can, however, respect the message and understand that if all people followed his teachings, fictional or not, the world would be a better place.

[SicEmBaylor]

You cant possibly be a Christian if you dont believe Jesus was a real person who lived, died, and was resurrected

I agree.

[GKeeper316]

as usual, you have no facts to back up your hateful statements so you throw a temper tantrum...cya later

all i did was state fact. the problem is trying to combat faith with logic and reason. if you arent prepared for the answers you get, dont start threads about religion.

i can blow a hole right in the middle of your whole christian belief system with a single line of logical reasoning, but it wouldnt change your mind.

i am positive im right that theres no such thing as god. im not discounting the possiblity that we were created by a super-intelligent and omnipotent being, but the notion of the christian god is just the worship of an abstract ideal.

you are positive you are right, even though your entire foundation of faith is ultimately flawed and horribly scewed by man and his interperatation of text written about a guy that may or may not have lived, dozens, if not hundreds, of years after his death because not a single person wrote anything down while he was saying it. not one. that is an indisputable fact.

its not a temper tantrum to get tired of arguing the same thing with the same people over and over and over again and expecting them to actually listen for once. its more like futility.

[Okla-homey]

all i did was state fact. the problem is trying to combat faith with logic and reason. if you arent prepared for the answers you get, dont start threads about religion.

i can blow a hole right in the middle of your whole christian belief system with a single line of logical reasoning, but it wouldnt change your mind.

i am positive im right that theres no such thing as god. im not discounting the possiblity that we were created by a super-intelligent and omnipotent being, but the notion of the christian god is just the worship of an abstract ideal.

you are positive you are right, even though your entire foundation of faith is ultimately flawed and horribly scewed by man and his interperatation of text written about a guy that may or may not have lived, dozens, if not hundreds, of years after his death because not a single person wrote anything down while he was saying it. not one. that is an indisputable fact.

its not a temper tantrum to get tired of arguing the same thing with the same people over and over and over again and expecting them to actually listen for once. its more like futility.

I've made up my mind. I have concluded you are either a troll or an idiot. Therefore, to me, you no longer exist. Because bothering with posts from trolls and/or idiots is a waste of time. As a result, I have filed you under "ignore this fool's moronic posts."

[GKeeper316]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197#

fast forward to about 14:00

[C&CDean]

Alright, I can't help myself. Have a card fool. Not only for being obnoxious, but for not using the shift key - except on the word "Texas" in your location. Troll.

[JLEW1818]

belief in something because you're scared of the consequences if you don't believe it...don't know if that's enough to make me believe, but whatever floats your boat.

I'm not a Christian because I fear hell. I'm a Christian because I beleive the son of god died for my sins. And if I beleive in him and trust him, I will have eternal life in heaven, with him.

I was previously asked what do u have to lose by not being a Christian? Burning in hell forever. according to the bible.

[Oldnslo]

I think Jesus was almost certainly a real person. I believe most historians agree as well. Believing he was a real person does not necessarily mean you accept the fact that he was of a virgin birth and the son of God.

That, in fact, is where Jews part company with Christians. They believe Jesus existed (as do the Muslims) and that he was prophet/messenger from God, but they don't believe he was the Messiah.

Jews do not believe Jesus was a prophet. Jesus was a rabbi (teacher). While I am hardly an expert on the Nation of Islam, and the Muslim faith, I think they include both Moses and Jesus as prophets junior to Mohammed.

Jews have a whole list of prophets (not including Daniel) but Jesus has never been considered among their number.

[Oldnslo]

Oh, and about that Hell thing.

Jews don't believe in it. Afterlife, sure, we've got that. But the ideas of Heaven and Hell being... like the Elysian Fields or Hades didn't happen until(wait for it)

Jews came into contact with Greek culture.

So, those of you who were wondering whether Zeus was a false god...I don't know. I don't think it's all that easy, and I also don't think that all of the good people who were born before (fill in the moment your favority religion was founded) are doomed to Hell. Again, Noah WASNT JEWISH, but God found him good enough to spare the rest of us. Where is Noah spending eternity? Because if Noah didn't get past the Gate, my chances of passing are mighty slim.

Personally, I tend to think that God chose the method by which he wished to reveal Himself or particular facets of His Presence based upon the time and place or His Whim. But that certainly isn't Orthodox Judaism.

[JohnnyMack]

Personally, I tend to think that God chose the method by which he wished to reveal Himself or particular facets of His Presence based upon the time and place or His Whim. But that certainly isn't Orthodox Judaism.

So how does Judaism handle my question of a soul? You guys believe in a soul? If yes, when did human beings develop one? Does the Jewish god reveal himself to everyone on the planet, like some farmer in China who lived 2400 years ago?

[olevetonahill]

Ya know in MHO there is just something wrong with people who want to argue religion. Im thinkin if ya MUST try to destroy some one elses Beliefs then ya must have a sorta Penis envy . Or feel really inadequate.:eek:

[JohnnyMack]

Ya know in MHO there is just something wrong with people who want to argue religion. Im thinkin if ya MUST try to destroy some one elses Beliefs then ya must have a sorta Penis envy . Or feel really inadequate.:eek:

I'll show it to you, if you really wanna see it.

[Oldnslo]

So how does Judaism handle my question of a soul? You guys believe in a soul? If yes, when did human beings develop one? Does the Jewish god reveal himself to everyone on the planet, like some farmer in China who lived 2400 years ago?

You have a talent for asking questions from the wrong side of the telescope. Human beings didn't develop a soul; the soul is from God. But the question of the soul and what happens to it isn't the focus of Judaism. That's a Christian thing--that you're supposed to live a certain way so that you can go to a wonderful afterlife. In Judaism, you're supposed to live a certain way, because you're supposed to LIVE that way. Tikun Olam, and all that. We speak of the afterlife pretty much never.

I am not in charge of how God chooses to reveal Himself, or to whom He chooses to reveal himself, or in what way, etc. He chose to speak with Moses face to face. Not me. Has God revealed Himself to you? How would I know? I can tell you that I'm comfortable in my faith and that my Universe makes sense to me.

[NormanPride]

So how does Judaism handle my question of a soul? You guys believe in a soul? If yes, when did human beings develop one? Does the Jewish god reveal himself to everyone on the planet, like some farmer in China who lived 2400 years ago?

How the **** are we supposed to know that, JM?

[JohnnyMack]

You have a talent for asking questions from the wrong side of the telescope. Human beings didn't develop a soul; the soul is from God. But the question of the soul and what happens to it isn't the focus of Judaism. That's a Christian thing--that you're supposed to live a certain way so that you can go to a wonderful afterlife. In Judaism, you're supposed to live a certain way, because you're supposed to LIVE that way. Tikun Olam, and all that. We speak of the afterlife pretty much never.

I am not in charge of how God chooses to reveal Himself, or to whom He chooses to reveal himself, or in what way, etc. He chose to speak with Moses face to face. Not me. Has God revealed Himself to you? How would I know? I can tell you that I'm comfortable in my faith and that my Universe makes sense to me.

I think it's more of a lack of acceptance of what's supposed to be on the other end of the telescope that brings about such questions. The convenience of a religion and how it ties to a particular culture is what makes it so unbelievable to me. I'll add that I think there's a real dichotomy between the "live life in a certain way so you can get to heaven" and the positive teachings that (a rabbi/teacher whatever you wanna call him) Jesus offered. I've always been of the Jesus was the son of God just as you and I are the son of God school. Would I make a good Jew? I do love bacon.

[Oldnslo]

I think it's more of a lack of acceptance of what's supposed to be on the other end of the telescope that brings about such questions. The convenience of a religion and how it ties to a particular culture is what makes it so unbelievable to me. I'll add that I think there's a real dichotomy between the "live life in a certain way so you can get to heaven" and the positive teachings that (a rabbi/teacher whatever you wanna call him) Jesus offered. I've always been of the Jesus was the son of God just as you and I are the son of God school. Would I make a good Jew? I do love bacon.
I do, too. Look into a Reform Temple.

If you want repair the world, then yes, you'd make a good Jew. That's what Tikun Olam is.

[NormanPride]

I've never thought different cultures having different religions was all that odd. If you were a deity and wanted to reach the most of your creations, wouldn't you tailor your image to the cultures?

[C&CDean]

Having German-Jew ancestors there's a couple of things that always perplexed me about them. Basically, they were driven to succeed/perform in this life because they really don't believe in an afterlife. I remember my mom asking her very Jewish friend one time about how she feels about her son (who was a very wealthy and unscrupulous jewelry dealer who ripped people off daily) being the way he is. My mom goes "your son is wealthy, but he doesn't treat his customers well." Her friend replied "I didn't raise him to be a good man, I raised him to be a business man."

It's just a different way of thinking I guess.

[Collier11]

all i did was state fact. the problem is trying to combat faith with logic and reason. if you arent prepared for the answers you get, dont start threads about religion.

i can blow a hole right in the middle of your whole christian belief system with a single line of logical reasoning, but it wouldnt change your mind.

i am positive im right that theres no such thing as god. im not discounting the possiblity that we were created by a super-intelligent and omnipotent being, but the notion of the christian god is just the worship of an abstract ideal.

you are positive you are right, even though your entire foundation of faith is ultimately flawed and horribly scewed by man and his interperatation of text written about a guy that may or may not have lived, dozens, if not hundreds, of years after his death because not a single person wrote anything down while he was saying it. not one. that is an indisputable fact.

its not a temper tantrum to get tired of arguing the same thing with the same people over and over and over again and expecting them to actually listen for once. its more like futility.


you can have your "facts" and ill keep my Faith and we will just leave it at that, you are far too arrogant and hateful to have an actual conversation and you have proven that over and again in this thread

2nd, I didnt start a thread to debate religion, I was asking a simple question regarding two seperate religions.

[Collier11]

Ya know in MHO there is just something wrong with people who want to argue religion. Im thinkin if ya MUST try to destroy some one elses Beliefs then ya must have a sorta Penis envy . Or feel really inadequate.:eek:

well the original point of this thread wasnt to argue religion or beliefs but for me to better understand something that I didnt understand. I got some answers that helped and luckily I got them before the typical thread jacking took place

[JLEW1818]

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith'," (Rom. 1:16,17)

[Scott D]

the first words of the bible are In the beginning, not someone should really write this **** down and make sure it survives, untouched, through the ages so that all may know the truth.

Personally I think the Bible would rock if it started like that.

[Scott D]

and vet, I don't argue religion because I don't believe in cults ;)

[olevetonahill]

I dont argue For or against . What im sayin is I dont understand why some want to to try to tear down some one Else's beliefs whether it be Pro Religion or against it .
Hell folks believe how ever ya want, but dont be tearing others down because YOU believe different :rolleyes:

[Scott D]

psst vet, that's the most core and basic tenant of religion ;)

[PDXsooner]

Hell folks believe how ever ya want, but dont be tearing others down because YOU believe different :rolleyes:

isn't that why there are christians outside of jerusalem? or mormons in samoa? isn't that what missionaries do?

[olevetonahill]

isn't that why there are christians outside of jerusalem? or mormons in samoa? isn't that what missionaries do?

Are Yall that dense ?I said Tearing others up . Some So called Christians do i suppose but it seems to me that theres just as many Non believers who want to tear up the Christians beliefs.

[PDXsooner]

Are Yall that dense ?I said Tearing others up . Some So called Christians do i suppose but it seems to me that theres just as many Non believers who want to tear up the Christians beliefs.

what does "non believer" mean?

[olevetonahill]

what does "non believer" mean?

Oh boy Ya really are dense aint ya ?
I aint arguing Pro or Con cause i dont give a shat if ya believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster .
But if ya even think just a lil bit about what i said in that post , I referred to Christians and then NON BELIEVERS , so in that context a Non believer would be a Non Christian . :rolleyes:

Not gonna debate anything here , Im just stating MHO that it is unnecessary to Tear each others beliefs or Non beliefs down .

[JLEW1818]

can u please post a pic of this spaghetti monster

[olevetonahill]

can u please post a pic of this spaghetti monster

Here ya go :D
http://reporting.journalism.ku.edu/fall08/adler-noland/assets_c/2008/12/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster_2-thumb-514x514.jpg

[JLEW1818]

:D :D

look out for that guy!

[Crucifax Autumn]

My eyes are open!!!!! Spaghetti monster bless us!

[olevetonahill]

We will start having services at 4 pm daily at the 1st bar an grill:D

[85Sooner]

I had this discussion with Gene Simmons from KISS. His mother was a survivor of a Nazi concentration camp. I asked him why do many Jews support the democratic party, a party that supports the Palestinians that want to annihilate the Jews. His response to me was based on the history of racism in this country. I personally don't see that, but again, I am not going to argue with a worldwide star and rock and roll god.

[ndpruitt03]

I had this discussion with Gene Simmons from KISS. His mother was a survivor of a Nazi concentration camp. I asked him why do many Jews support the democratic party, a party that supports the Palestinians that want to annihilate the Jews. His response to me was based on the history of racism in this country. I personally don't see that, but again, I am not going to argue with a worldwide star and rock and roll god.

Kinda ironic since it was the democrats that wanted slavery in the Civil War.

[olevetonahill]

Oh my God
Kill me Now before I ever even think !:D :eek:

[SicEmBaylor]

Kinda ironic since it was the democrats that wanted slavery in the Civil War.

How do you successfully walk around without a safety helmet on?

[SicEmBaylor]

Kinda ironic since it was the democrats that wanted slavery in the Civil War.

Wow, way to boil down a complex issue into an asinine statement like that. There were plenty of Democrats who opposed slavery. Others simply opposed secession. In either case, there were many prominent Union generals who were Democrats.

The Democratic party of the 1860s has virtually nothing in common, ideologically, with the Democrat Party of today. The Republican Party of the 180s was, by far, the more progressive and liberal of the two. It was radically liberal for the time.

Secondly, I'm not sure why Jews are weary of conservatives or what it has to do with the South or the War of Northern Aggression. For your information, more Jews served in the Confederate Army than the Union Army and even the Secretary of State for the Confederacy was Jewish.