Questions for believers

[JohnnyMack]

1. While estimates vary, the distance from one end of the universe to the other is around probably no less than 30 billion light years wide. A light year is a measure of distance that equals roughly 5.9 billion miles. If ours is in fact the only planet that houses life, why exactly would a deity create a universe that is so incredibly inefficient?

2. Please explain how the Clovis culture, often thought to be some of the first inhabitants of the Americas somewhere between 11 and 13,000 years ago relates to the concept of your particular belief set.

3. Considering all the religions that exist today and have existed in the past, why is yours more relevant than any other?

[Leroy Lizard]

3. Considering all the religions that exist today and have existed in the past, why is yours more relevant than any other?

Because it is based on truth, as revealed in Scripture.

I'm not even that religious and answered this one easily.

[Leroy Lizard]

1. While estimates vary, the distance from one end of the universe to the other is around probably no less than 30 billion light years wide. A light year is a measure of distance that equals roughly 5.9 billion miles. If ours is in fact the only planet that houses life, why exactly would a deity create a universe that is so incredibly inefficient?

I'm not sure how you are referring to efficiency here? What was the intended goal of Creation?


2. Please explain how the Clovis culture, often thought to be some of the first inhabitants of the Americas somewhere between 11 and 13,000 years ago relates to the concept of your particular belief set.

Not sure what you're getting at.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Because it is based on truth, as revealed in Scripture.



How do i know my wife loves me? Because she told me so, and she would never lie to someone she loves.

[LosAngelesSooner]

Because it is based on truth, as revealed in Scripture.

I'm not even that religious and answered this one easily.

^^^ This...translates to: "Because we SAY SO, silly!" Carry on.

[Collier11]

1. While estimates vary, the distance from one end of the universe to the other is around probably no less than 30 billion light years wide. A light year is a measure of distance that equals roughly 5.9 billion miles. If ours is in fact the only planet that houses life, why exactly would a deity create a universe that is so incredibly inefficient?

1st ill say that when dealing with issues this huge, my brain cant possibly understand. We werent supposed to understand everything. On top of that, we have no verifiable proof that we are the only intelligent life at this point in time

2. Please explain how the Clovis culture, often thought to be some of the first inhabitants of the Americas somewhere between 11 and 13,000 years ago relates to the concept of your particular belief set.

I think that there are some things that arent in the Bible therefore they arent explained, I also think that some aspects of science which are thought to be truths might not be so...the real answer is who knows, believers and non believers alike really dont know

3. Considering all the religions that exist today and have existed in the past, why is yours more relevant than any other?

I think a vast majority of religions are just different styles of what we call Christianity. Ultimately, IMHO, if the religion isnt about honoring Christ then it isnt a real religion

I know those answers werent overly "deep" but to keep it simple, thats some of how I believe in reference to your questions

[picasso]

1. While estimates vary, the distance from one end of the universe to the other is around probably no less than 30 billion light years wide. A light year is a measure of distance that equals roughly 5.9 billion miles. If ours is in fact the only planet that houses life, why exactly would a deity create a universe that is so incredibly inefficient?

2. Please explain how the Clovis culture, often thought to be some of the first inhabitants of the Americas somewhere between 11 and 13,000 years ago relates to the concept of your particular belief set.

3. Considering all the religions that exist today and have existed in the past, why is yours more relevant than any other?

If it's so damned hard for you why don't you just pray and ask God into your heart?

It's pretty simple, even for a simpleton.

You guys let me know when my hard-on for a nontheist get's out of hand.

[Leroy Lizard]

^^^ This...translates to: "Because we SAY SO, silly!" Carry on.

No, because God says so.

[JohnnyMack]

No, because God says so.

Why would what the Christian god says is truth be any more relevant than what Zeus or Odin said was truth?

[Leroy Lizard]

Why would what the Christian god says is truth be any more relevant than what Zeus or Odin said was truth?

Because what Zeus and Odin said was truth was not.

[LosAngelesSooner]

Because what Zeus and Odin said was truth was not.

And you know this how?

[Leroy Lizard]

Through Scripture.

[LosAngelesSooner]

No, because God says so.

Oh, He did? What was He wearing when He told you this? Or where were you when you spoke with Him? Just curious.

[LosAngelesSooner]

Through Scripture.

Which Scripture?

[Leroy Lizard]

The Holy Bible, for one.

[LosAngelesSooner]

The Holy Bible, for one.

Which version?

[Leroy Lizard]

Whichever version reveals its truth to you.

[LosAngelesSooner]

Whichever version reveals its truth to you.

So your assertion is that ALL versions of the Holy Bible are equal and acceptable as God's word?

[Leroy Lizard]

No, that God's word is revealed in all versions of the Holy Bible.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I think a vast majority of religions are just different styles of what we call Christianity. Ultimately, IMHO, if the religion isnt about honoring Christ then it isnt a real religion



Collier, there are hundreds of religions that believe in some form of supernatural power or being, but do not subscribe to Christ as Christians do. No doubt among all of the religions, some of them have their assumptions wrong about a few things.... but they're still real religions - belief systems that exist and observed by real people.

[LosAngelesSooner]

No, that God's word is revealed in all versions of the Holy Bible.So then God's word is revealed through the Gnostic Gospels?

[Leroy Lizard]

I suppose. I am not familiar with the Gnostic Gospels so I can't say for sure.

Why do I have a feeling that this entire Socratic argument crap is driven by a complete inability to understand the concept of revelation?

[proud gonzo]

Whichever version reveals its truth to you.
Bahá'í believe God's word is revealed in all scriptures, not JUST Christian scripture.

[Leroy Lizard]

Very interesting.

[yermom]

Ultimately, IMHO, if the religion isnt about honoring Christ then it isnt a real religion


nice.

[Leroy Lizard]

You're supposed to ask him to define "real religion." Get with the program.

[LosAngelesSooner]

I suppose. I am not familiar with the Gnostic Gospels so I can't say for sure.

Why do I have a feeling that this entire Socratic argument crap is driven by a complete inability to understand the concept of revelation?Heh. Hedging already? I guess you feel the walls closing in on your frail argument.

As for the Gnostic Gospels...why do you have to be familiar with them? They are in some versions of the Holy Bible...and according to your assertion, they are all equally valid and God reveals Himself to all of us through them. Therefore, according to you, they are equally valid.

Now...since we've established that you feel that all versions of the Holy Bible are equal representations of God revealing His will to us, including those containing the Gnostic Gospels, my next question is:

Which TRANSLATIONS of the Holy Bible are valid to you?

[LosAngelesSooner]

You're supposed to ask him to define "real religion." Get with the program.Still pouting from the last time you tried to debate the grown ups? :D

[yermom]

You're supposed to ask him to define "real religion." Get with the program.

he's already excluded the Jews. he probably denies the Holocaust happened too

[yermom]

Christians can't even agree on whether they should wear a condom or not.

the fact is that most people get their religious belief from their culture. their parents indoctrinate what "truth" is from a very young age and that's where it comes from. too bad if you are are born in Asia somewhere. your religion is most likely wrong.

[proud gonzo]

I suppose. I am not familiar with the Gnostic Gospels so I can't say for sure.

Why do I have a feeling that this entire Socratic argument crap is driven by a complete inability to understand the concept of revelation?because some other arguments are driven by a complete inability to understand the concept of truth and logic.

[Leroy Lizard]

Heh. Hedging already? I guess you feel the walls closing in on your frail argument.

The weaknesses in your method have been known for 2000 years. Give me a break.



As for the Gnostic Gospels...why do you have to be familiar with them? They are in some versions of the Holy Bible...and according to your assertion, they are all equally valid and God reveals Himself to all of us through them.


So this is how you were going to play the game. YOU asked ME:


So your assertion is that ALL versions of the Holy Bible are equal and acceptable as God's word?"

And I said "No"

But, you are now going to say that I said "yes."

So the dishonesty is just going to continue. It doesn't do any good for me to say "no" because you will just say that I said "yes" later.

[Leroy Lizard]

because some other arguments are driven by a complete inability to understand the concept of truth and logic.

We all understand the concept of truth and logic. What that truth is may not be known to all of us.

[Leroy Lizard]

Still pouting from the last time you tried to debate the grown ups?

Those crickets chirped for quite a long time after I demanded you tell us whether MLK Jr was a real man. In fact, you never did answer, did you?

[yermom]

with all that tail he was getting, i'd say he was :D

[LosAngelesSooner]

The weaknesses in your method have been known for 2000 years. Give me a break.





So this is how you were going to play the game. YOU asked ME:



And I said "No"

But, you are now going to say that I said "yes."

So the dishonesty is just going to continue. It doesn't do any good for me to say "no" because you will just say that I said "yes" later.Ah...so NOW you said, "No."

Right.

You should be on the Texas Board of Education, Mr. Revisionist History.

And with that VERY easy victory, I'll quit whippin' up on the Troll and let the REAL discussion begin among the adults. :D

[LosAngelesSooner]

Those crickets chirped for quite a long time after I demanded you tell us whether MLK Jr was a real man. In fact, you never did answer, did you?Man, you ain't too quick. I DID answer that. Then you RESPONDED to my answer. Then I responded to THAT one.

I guess you really CAN'T read, can ya? LOL :D

[soonervegas]

1. While estimates vary, the distance from one end of the universe to the other is around probably no less than 30 billion light years wide. A light year is a measure of distance that equals roughly 5.9 billion miles. If ours is in fact the only planet that houses life, why exactly would a deity create a universe that is so incredibly inefficient?

I am not understanding this question. I am not a bible expert by any means, but I don't recall any scriptures about earth being the only inhabitant in a vast universe.

These arguments are so fun. No one, NO ONE knows for sure what's on the other side. You take the information given and make your best judgement. If I am given the options of creation per say or a single cell organism that got lucky and over time develop into a fully functioning human (as well as countless other versions of life) I'll take creation. That seems more plausible to my educated mind. I do believe in evolution just not to the degree that scientists theorize that it did.

[Leroy Lizard]

Ah...so NOW you said, "No."

Right.



Post 18 was yours:


So your assertion is that ALL versions of the Holy Bible are equal and acceptable as God's word?

Post 19 was mine:


No, that God's word is revealed in all versions of the Holy Bible.

Do you see the word "no" in there, in response to your question about whether all versions of the Bible are equal?

Do you see that?

I said "no" for a reason. But that didn't suit your needs, did it?

[oudavid1]

I believe there is someone up there watching over me, and i talk to that everyday. I believe he created everything, including Landry Jones. So i thank him.

[Leroy Lizard]

I believe there is someone up there watching over me, and i talk to that everyday. I believe he created everything, including Landry Jones.

Well, you're wrong. I could tell you why you're wrong. But you wouldn't understand. Because you're stupid. Therefore, I win the argument and I'm out of here.

Sorry, oudavid. I created this using an LAS-argument generator.

[tommieharris91]

Through Scripture.

Why is Scripture right and Odin and Zeus were false?

If you're gonna throw out bare assertions, you should be called on them.

[Leroy Lizard]

Why is Scripture right and Odin and Zeus were false?

Lord knows. Literally.

[tommieharris91]

Lord knows. Literally.

Bare assertion.

[Leroy Lizard]

If all this is designed to show that belief in God rests on faith and that the existence of God cannot be proven, spare us the trouble. No one either side of the fence disagrees.

[proud gonzo]

The thing I don't understand in all this is how LL can arbitrarily argue Scripture is true because it's Scripture, but also say that argument only works with Christian Scripture and not any other Scripture.

[tommieharris91]

If all this is designed to show that belief in God rests on faith and that the existence of God cannot be proven, spare us the trouble. No one either side of the fence disagrees.

Straw man. Negative proof.

[Collier11]

The thing I don't understand in all this is how LL can arbitrarily argue Scripture is true because it's Scripture, but also say that argument only works with Christian Scripture and not any other Scripture.

well LL claims not to be religious but I am a Christian so I would tell you whether you agree or not that Christian scripture is true over any other because there is only one God and that scripture is based off of the word of God

[tommieharris91]

Can anyone answer JohnnyMack's 3rd question without using a bare assertion?

[Leroy Lizard]

The thing I don't understand in all this is how LL can arbitrarily argue Scripture is true because it's Scripture, but also say that argument only works with Christian Scripture and not any other Scripture.

Because only Christian Scripture tells the Truth.

Okay, I've had my fun. Time to let you in on the secret.

I'm not religious (as I stated early in this thread), but you don't understand the Christian idea of revelation. When you read the Good Book, the Truth is revealed to you in such a way that there is no doubt about its (well) truthfulness. There is no debate about it.

So to a Christian, to argue about whether Scripture tells the Truth is a ridiculous question. Of course Scripture tells the Truth. The fact that you don't know the Truth just shows that you haven't read the Scriptures and opened your heart to Jesus Christ. If you did, you would see the light and truth would reveal itself in such a way that you wouldn't doubt its existence.

This all frustrates those that haven't seen the truth because they have no way of experiencing what Christians have experienced. It's not that Christians THINK that the Bible is the truth, they KNOW it is.

So you argue with them? But who are you? A mere mortal. Why should they be persuaded by your logic when the Almighty has already spoken to them?

So there is no resolution to these arguments.

[Leroy Lizard]

Straw man. Negative proof.

Huh? Where did I ask anyone to prove a negative?

[Collier11]

Can anyone answer JohnnyMack's 3rd question without using a bare assertion?

Its been answered, there is only One God and his word the Truth

[Fraggle145]

I am not understanding this question. I am not a bible expert by any means, but I don't recall any scriptures about earth being the only inhabitant in a vast universe.

These arguments are so fun. No one, NO ONE knows for sure what's on the other side. You take the information given and make your best judgement. If I am given the options of creation per say or a single cell organism that got lucky and over time develop into a fully functioning human (as well as countless other versions of life) I'll take creation. That seems more plausible to my educated mind. I do believe in evolution just not to the degree that scientists theorize that it did.

I think you fail to realize just how much better at just about everything microbes are than just about any other organism.

And the thing that required the luck wasnt a single celled organism. It was the formation of nucleic acids. And then the ability of those nucleic acid to make copies of themselves.

But if you think about it, due to their small size it is almost impossible to go extinct, hence giving them a better chance to make it once one is there.

Just some fun facts about single celled organisms:

1st of all they have been here for ~2 billion years, that is a lot of time to diversify.

The biomass of just bacteria is ~10^29. To give you an idea of how big that is the biomass of all domesticated livestock is ~10^28. They account for an order of magnitude more! And that doesnt count all of the other single celled things like algae, archaea, and other protists.

They can use all of the nutrients in a system and cylce them out faster than anything else, just because of their size. For example they can use all of the nutrients in a lake 3 times over in a day, while it takes the fish on the order of years to do the same thing.

They can and do live in just about every environment on the Earth.

They can take in genes from their environment and incorporate them into their genome. They can do the same thing with the organelles from other cells and then use them for their own.

They can use light to make energy, something that took us about 200,000 years to figure out how to do with technology.

In short it isnt that far fetched to think that we came from microorganisms... Its their world, we are just living in it.

[Collier11]

yep and all of that just magically happened

Also, I just love all of these people that say the world has been around for this many million years or these have existed for this many billion years. Just say it like it is, you dont actually know this because there is no way to actually know this

[starclassic tama]

you dont actually know this because there is no way to actually know this

there is tons of evidence for it.

[Collier11]

im not saying it isnt true, im saying that scientists who argue against creationism always act like these scientific tests that show how old the world is and how they think life is created are fail proof and I dont think that is plausible, I dont think anything is fail proof

[starclassic tama]

the reason they argue against creationism is because there isn't any evidence for it at all, while evolution has mountains of evidence. scienctists aren't at war with religion, scientists love proving each other wrong. if there was evidence for some kind of creationism or something like that and everything we knew up until now is wrong, then everything would shift that way and abandon the old evolutionary theories.

[Leroy Lizard]

I'm not sure why, but I have this gut feeling that this thread is going to last a long, long time.

Or be locked.

[Collier11]

the reason they argue against creationism is because there isn't any evidence for it at all, while evolution has mountains of evidence. scienctists aren't at war with religion, scientists love proving each other wrong. if there was evidence for some kind of creationism or something like that and everything we knew up until now is wrong, then everything would shift that way and abandon the old evolutionary theories.

So even with The Bible being one of the oldest books known to man, a book that details the creation of Heaven and Earth, Scientists just discount that as rediculous? Seems to me to be atleast minimal proof to those who arent so sure about creationism

[Collier11]

I'm not sure why, but I have this gut feeling that this thread is going to last a long, long time.

Or be locked.

as long as no one gets all offended and starts attacking people we can talk as long as we want to

[LosAngelesSooner]

Post 18 was yours:



Post 19 was mine:



Do you see the word "no" in there, in response to your question about whether all versions of the Bible are equal?

Do you see that?

I said "no" for a reason. But that didn't suit your needs, did it?I love how you fail to mention the subsequent two posts which prove my point. :D

P

W

N

3

D

And with that slam dunk...I leave.

Trolls like this are SO easy. LOL :D

[Leroy Lizard]

Declaring victory and going home once again, eh? Typical liberal.

[Leroy Lizard]

as long as no one gets all offended and starts attacking people we can talk as long as we want to

Be my guest. :D

[Collier11]

dont act like you wont be in this thread as long as it is around, we are all suckers like that ;)

[Leroy Lizard]

(deleted)

[Crucifax Autumn]

So even with The Bible being one of the oldest books known to man, a book that details the creation of Heaven and Earth, Scientists just discount that as rediculous? Seems to me to be atleast minimal proof to those who arent so sure about creationism

This is confusing because oldest book and oldest piece of literature are 2 different things.


The oldest known work of literature is The Epic of Gilgamesh which is an epic poem recorded on 12 clay tablets from Ancient Mesopotamia (Current day Iraq). The earliest versions of the Epic date as early as 2150-2000 BC. Gilgamesh might have been a real ruler in the late Early Dynastic II period (ca. 27th century BC) Other books worthy of mention is the Egyptian Book of the Dead (18th century BC) and Homeros the Illiad and the Odessy (8th century BC)

Note how far down this dated list biblical texts begin to appear:


Bronze Age
Early Bronze Age (3rd millennium BC) approximate dates shown
2600 BC Sumerian texts from Abu Salabikh, including the Instructions of Shuruppak and the Kesh Temple Hymn
2400 BC Egyptian Pyramid Texts, including the Cannibal Hymn
2400 BC Egyptian Palermo stone
2350 BC Sumerian Code of Urukagina
2350 BC Egyptian The Maxims of Ptahhotep
2270 BC Sumerian Enheduanna's Hymns
2100 BC Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh
2100 BC Sumerian Curse of Agade
2050 BC Sumerian Code of Ur-Nammu
2000 BC Egyptian Coffin Texts
2000 BC Sumerian Lament for Ur
2000 BC Sumerian Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta
Middle Bronze Age (ca. 2000 to 1600 BC) approximate dates shown
1950 BC Akkadian Laws of Eshnunna
1900 BC Egyptian Westcar Papyrus; assumed age of the text, the surviving papyrus copy dates to ca. 1700 BC.
1850 BC Hittite Kultepe texts
1800 BC Egyptian Story of Sinuhe (in Hieratic)
1800 BC Akkadian Enûma Elish
1800 BC Akkadian Atra-Hasis epic
1800 BC Minoan Linear A incriptions.
1780 BC Babylonian Code of Hammurabi stele
1750 BC Hittite Anitta tablets
1700 BC Sumerian Eridu Genesis
1650 BC Egyptian Ipuwer Papyrus
Late Bronze Age (ca. 1600 to 1200 BC) approximate dates shown
1500 BC Hittite military oath
1500-1100 BC Vedic Sanskrit Rigveda (redaction likely around 800 BC)
1550 BC Egyptian Book of the Dead
1400 BC Hurrian & Ugaritic Amarna Letters
ca. 15th to 14th c. BC: the earliest Mycenaean Greek Linear B inscriptions
ca. 14th to 12th c. BC: Anyang oracle bone inscriptions
1330 BC Great Hymn to the Aten
1240 BC Papyrus of Ani, Book of the Dead
the Babylonian Poor Man of Nippur
the Epic of Gilgamesh (Akkadian version)
the older Avesta on Ancient Iranian faiths
Tale of Two Brothers from the Egyptian Papyrus D'Orbiney by the scribe Ennana.[1]
[edit] Iron Age
Iron Age texts predating Classical Antiquity (12th to 8th centuries BC):

ca. 11th BC Egyptian Story of Wenamun
ca. 12th to 9th c. BC: Yajurveda, Atharvaveda
ca. 11th c. BC: Gatha Avestan text by Zoroaster
ca. 11th c. BC: Oldest portions (hymns) of the Shijing
ca. 10th to 9th c. BC: I Ching
ca. 9th to 7th c. BC: Brahmanas
ca. 9th to 7th c. BC: Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, Chandogya Upanishad, Jaiminiya Upanishad Brahmana
ca. 15th to 6th c. BC: older parts of the Hebrew Bible (see dating the Bible)
Pentateuch
Book of Joshua
Book of Isaiah
ca. 8th c. BC: Homer and Hesiod (by convention considered the first authors of Classical Greece)
The Trojan War cycle, including the Iliad and the Odyssey
The Theogony by Hesiod
[edit] Classical Antiquity
See also Ancient Greek literature, Latin literature, Indian literature, Chinese literature
7th century BC
Archilochus of Paros
Alcman
Semonides
Solon
Mimnermus
Stesichorus
6th century BC
Sappho
Ibycus
Alcaeus
Aesop's Fables
Hebrew Bible: Psalms, Book of Daniel, Book of Ezekiel
Chinese Classic of History, Tao Te Ching and The Art of War
Sutra literature
some mukhya Upanishads (Katha Upanishad, Maitrayaniya Upanishad)
5th century BC:
The odes of Pindar
Yasht zoroasterian book.
The Histories of Herodotus by Herodotus
History of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides
The Suppliants, The Persians, Seven Against Thebes, Oresteia by Aeschylus
Oedipus the King, Oedipus at Colonus, Antigone, Electra by Sophocles
Alcestis, Medea, Heracleidae, Hippolytus, Andromache, Hecuba, The Suppliants, Electra, Heracles, Trojan Women, Iphigeneia in Tauris, Ion, Helen, Phoenician Women, Orestes, Bacchae, Iphigeneia at Aulis, Cyclops, Rhesus by Euripides
The Acharnians, The Knights, The Clouds, The Wasps, Peace, The Birds, Lysistrata, Thesmophoriazusae, The Frogs, Ecclesiazousae, Plutus by Aristophanes
The Five Classics (Classic of Poetry, Classic of History, Book of Changes, Classic of Rites, and Annals of Spring and Autumn, traditionally by Confucius)
composed over the time spanning roughly the 5th c. BC to the 4th c. AD: Sanskrit Epics (Mahabharataand Ramayana)
4th century BC:
Anabasis, Cyropaedia by Xenophon
Nicomachean Ethics, Metaphysics by Aristotle
Euthyphro, Apology, Crito, Theaetetus, Parmenides, Symposium, Phaedrus, Protagoras, Gorgias, Meno, Menexenus, Republic, Timaeus by Plato
Elements by Euclid
Book of Job (present form-- story is from at least 6th century)
3rd century BC:
Tolkāppiyam Tamil Literature
Liber Linteus Zagrabiensis
Panchatantra by Vishnu Sarma
2nd century BC:
Poenulus, Miles Gloriosus by Plautus
Vendidad Zoroastrian book
Records of the Grand Historian by Sima Qian
The earlier poems of Sangam literature in the Tamil language
1st century BC:
Catiline Orations, Pro Caelio, Dream of Scipio by Cicero
Gallic Wars by Julius Caesar
Eclogues, Georgics and Aeneid by Virgil
On the Nature of Things by Lucretius
Ab Urbe Condita (History of Rome) by Titus Livius (Livy)
Pali Tipitaka
1st century:
The books of the New Testament
Germania by Tacitus
Lives of the Noble Greeks and Romans by Plutarch
Metamorphoses by Ovid
Natural History by Pliny the Elder
Satyricon by Petronius Arbiter
Jewish War, Jewish Antiquities, Against Apion by Josephus
Book of Han by Ban Gu
2nd century:
Anabasis Alexandri by Arrian
Almagest by Ptolemy
Ayadgar-i Zariran in Pahlavi
Deipnosophistae by Athenaeus
Visperad in middle Persian
Enchiridion by Epictetus
The Golden *** by Apuleius
Drakht-i Asurig(Syriac thee) in Pahlavi
Liber Memorialis by Lucius Ampelius
Description of Greece by Pausanias
Lives of the Twelve Caesars by Suetonius
3rd century:
De re coquinaria by Apicius
Enneads by Plotinus
Shabuhragan by Manichae in Middle Persian,the Holly book of Manichaeism,
Pervigilium Veneris
Khordeh Avesta prayer book of Zoroastrians
Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms by Chen Shou
Distichs of Cato
[edit] Late Antiquity
4th century:
De Re Militari by Flavius Vegetius Renatus
Confessions, On Christian Doctrine by Augustine of Hippo
Orosius
5th century:
The City of God by Augustine of Hippo
Matigan-i Hazar Datistan in middle Persian
Vulgate of St. Jerome
Psychomachia by Prudentius
Frahang-i Oim-evak dictionary in middle Persian-Avestan
Consentius' grammar
Hou Hanshu compiled by Fan Yeh
Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite
6th century (see also early medieval literature):
Matigan-i Chatrang a novel in middle Persian about the creation of the chess
Etymologiae by Isidore of Seville
Karnamak-i Artaxshir-i Papakan a novel in middle Persian
Secret History by Procopius
Commentary on Job by Pope Gregory I
Jamasp Namag a historical/Zoroastrian book in Middle Persian
Agathias
Evagrius Scholasticus
Aryabhatiya

[Crucifax Autumn]

Funny that a book title from the 2nd century gets censored by SF! lol

[sooner59]

So even with The Bible being one of the oldest books known to man, a book that details the creation of Heaven and Earth, Scientists just discount that as rediculous? Seems to me to be atleast minimal proof to those who arent so sure about creationism

I would assume that they are basing this off of the fact that humans wrote the Bible and humans are not infallible, and are prone to corruption and disinformation campaigns.....specifically in those times in order to sway minds for power. Personally I don't pick sides in this reasoning. Because unless you can time-travel, you just don't know. However, I understand the reasoning behind this argument. There is no reason to argue with someone on their beliefs because it works for them. But I never understood why people try to convince others that their religion is wrong, because there is no concrete proof. I will never tell someone they are wrong, because for all I know, they are right. Scientists don't know the question to our ultimate questions (such as these) any more than anyone else. There are, however, many things that science can put up some serious evidence for, and it holds weight. Its the hardcore minds on both sides that think they know more than they probably do. In reality, neither a science book nor the Bible have every single concept 100% correct, IMO. But that doesn't mean either doesn't have their merits. There are a ton of unanswered questions in this world and we likely won't get the answers we want in this lifetime. If there is something after this (and I hope and believe there is) we will know one day.

[sooner59]

Funny that a book title from the 2nd century gets censored by SF! lol

I caught that, too. A little overkill me thinks, lol.

[picasso]

Collier, there are hundreds of religions that believe in some form of supernatural power or being, but do not subscribe to Christ as Christians do. No doubt among all of the religions, some of them have their assumptions wrong about a few things.... but they're still real religions - belief systems that exist and observed by real people.

Wow really? Who knew?:rolleyes: :)

Good lord what is this the 3rd grade?

Hey John Mack, this guy might help with your confusion:

http://www.rzim.org/

You can watch him on Youtube. He mixes in that dreaded science with his theology.



For me is hasn't just been scripture or how I was raised, it's feeling God's anointing and his answered prayers and having a relationship with him. He's there if you look for him and wait for him.
I could care less about some of you naysayers who like to get subtle little digs in. You don't even realize you are living out prophecies told throughout the bible.
Your loss, but keep living the dream with that empty space inside of you.:)

[Crucifax Autumn]

I eat way too much to have any empty spaces inside me.

[JohnnyMack]

Not sure what you're getting at.

Would someone who was part of the Clovis culture be defined as human? If they are human do they have a soul? If they have a soul, did the Christian god reveal itself to those people? Perhaps at death it announced itself to these people? And that doesn't seem very fair to all those people who go to church today and spend all their time praying. I mean if the Christian god just passed summary judgment on the lives of people who never heard his message I think that's pretty lame, some folks do some hard work for their deity and I think letting someone in heaven just because is weak sauce. Also, if these people weren't human and had no souls at what point did human beings develop a soul and why?

[Leroy Lizard]

I mean if the Christian god just passed summary judgment on the lives of people who never heard his message I think that's pretty lame, some folks do some hard work for their deity and I think letting someone in heaven just because is weak sauce.

Are you trying to sue God in some sort of class-action suit on behalf of the Clovis people?

[swardboy]

Christianity is, to my knowledge, the only "religion" based on empirical evidence. It welcomes scrutiny. Sir Bernard Ramsey became an ardent believer after setting out to prove Luke's account of "The Acts of the Apostles" to be inaccurate. He kept discovering the towns Luke alluded to in Paul's missionary journeys through the new science of archaeology.

As to the miracles of Jesus: Even his enemies didn't attempt to disprove them, they just attributed them to demonic influence

As to the resurrection: Christianity rises or falls on this point alone. Everything else is moot in the face of the power of life and death. His post-resurrection appearances were random in timing, location, and in audience. From one to 500 people at a time over 40 days. Mass delusion doesn't explain that pattern. While I would love for Him to have walked into Pilate's presence and say, "Hey, remember Me?", only believers were chosen. I suppose this reinforces "Blessed are those who have NOT seen Me, and yet believe.", as well as the faith aspect.

[Fraggle145]

As to the resurrection: Christianity rises or falls on this point alone. Everything else is moot in the face of the power of life and death. His post-resurrection appearances were random in timing, location, and in audience. From one to 500 people at a time over 40 days. Mass delusion doesn't explain that pattern. While I would love for Him to have walked into Pilate's presence and say, "Hey, remember Me?", only believers were chosen. I suppose this reinforces "Blessed are those who have NOT seen Me, and yet believe.", as well as the faith aspect.

It was his twin. ;)

[Fraggle145]

yep and all of that just magically happened

Also, I just love all of these people that say the world has been around for this many million years or these have existed for this many billion years. Just say it like it is, you dont actually know this because there is no way to actually know this

Actually there is... Carbon dating for example. I mean where did all of those dinosaur bones come from? Why are there so many different layers of rock/sediment? You can use rocks to get the age of the Earth.

Obviously there is some error around the estimate. But If i say the Earth is 4 billion years old and you want to say its 3, I'm not going to argue with you. Now if you want to say it is 6000 years old, I would disagree.

[JohnnyMack]

Christianity is, to my knowledge, the only "religion" based on empirical evidence. It welcomes scrutiny. Sir Bernard Ramsey became an ardent believer after setting out to prove Luke's account of "The Acts of the Apostles" to be inaccurate. He kept discovering the towns Luke alluded to in Paul's missionary journeys through the new science of archaeology.

As to the miracles of Jesus: Even his enemies didn't attempt to disprove them, they just attributed them to demonic influence

As to the resurrection: Christianity rises or falls on this point alone. Everything else is moot in the face of the power of life and death. His post-resurrection appearances were random in timing, location, and in audience. From one to 500 people at a time over 40 days. Mass delusion doesn't explain that pattern. While I would love for Him to have walked into Pilate's presence and say, "Hey, remember Me?", only believers were chosen. I suppose this reinforces "Blessed are those who have NOT seen Me, and yet believe.", as well as the faith aspect.

Any religion (and this is most of them) that asks you to accept some sort of mysticism as one of its tenets is asking you to submit to faith. The concept of faith combined with the ultimate unknown question of what happens after we die is what gives religion legs. To me there is no difference between this guy:

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Entertainment/Images/jesus.jpg

and this guy:

http://www.skeptictank.org/applew.jpg

At their core they're both asking you to suspend what is rational and known and to simply trust them. Now Jesus has a better PR firm than Marshall Applewhite did, but neither one of them can offer PROOF that what they speak is true. Now you'll counter that the Bible is the written word, handed down for century after century as the word of the lord and I would caution that longevity doesn't equate to legitimacy.

Go down the line from Moses to Joseph Smith to L. Ron Hubbard. All three of these people fall into a perfect mythological archetype of the messenger. Their story of how they came into possession of the word of their chosen deity are very similar. The movie "The Invention of Lying" gives us another example of the messenger. The point is that while many religions offer nice blueprints on how to build a morally upstanding life, none of them can prove their legitimacy.

[LosAngelesSooner]

Declaring victory and going home once again, eh? Typical liberal.Rewriting history and denying you said things that are recorded for everyone to see after they idiocy in them came back to bit you in the ***? Typical Neo-Con. :pop:

[XingTheRubicon]

If there is a God, I sure hope he reads Soonerfans.

[Leroy Lizard]

Now Jesus has a better PR firm than Marshall Applewhite did, but neither one of them can offer PROOF that what they speak is true.

Proof is unnecessary when God speaks directly to you.

[yermom]

Proof is unnecessary when God speaks directly to you.

i'm waiting...

[Leroy Lizard]

On what? To be saved? I suggest contacting your local preacher. You might be able to find a coupon in the back of the Yellow Pages.

[JohnnyMack]

Proof is unnecessary when God speaks directly to you.

God spoke to me and told me that you were a poopy head. Therefore it is true.

[C&CDean]

I wish God would smite about a half-dozen of you obnoxious *******s from the face of the planet.

[EnragedOUfan]

FAITH! The keyword is faith. People have faith in that their religion is the true religion. I am a Christian whom is currently a member of a Baptist church and I have faith and believe that the King James Version of the Holy Bible is the word of God. Many of you have legit questions. I used to be like many of you.....I wondered how can anyone say that their religion is the one and true religion or why would God create a universe as big as it is only to have life on earth or I would be curious in the carbon dating. But this is what I know...It is a fact that everyone of us on this board will one day DIE. Its inevitable. Now, I would rather die being saved and having faith that I will go to Heaven compared to dying, not being saved, and burning in hell. If there is a God/Jesus Christ, everyone who has doubted Christ will burn in hell. Back to the subject, Faith is the key to everything. I've had prayers answered (and I don't consider them coincidences). Hopefully this helps....BOOMER!

[Leroy Lizard]

God spoke to me and told me that you were a poopy head. Therefore it is true.

You don't even want to hear what he said about you.

[Howzit]

I wish the stripes in the road were made of jelly beans.

[Leroy Lizard]

Now, I would rather die being saved and having faith that I will go to Heaven compared to dying, not being saved, and burning in hell.

Sorry, but I don't think you can really take a complete utilitarian view of your own faith. There must be more to your beliefs.

[Leroy Lizard]

God spoke to me and told me that you were a poopy head. Therefore it is true.

The Devil told me that he has a sandpaper condom that he's just itching to try on you. :D

[Collier11]

You don't even want to hear what he said about you.

he said that He Loves him and forgives him, he just wants JM to spend some time hanging out with him and getting to know him

[Leroy Lizard]

Sorry, Collier, but I distinctly remember the term "lost cause" in his statement to me. :D

[TheUnnamedSooner]

1. While estimates vary, the distance from one end of the universe to the other is around probably no less than 30 billion light years wide. A light year is a measure of distance that equals roughly 5.9 billion miles. If ours is in fact the only planet that houses life, why exactly would a deity create a universe that is so incredibly inefficient?



So we can expand! :D

[Oldnslo]

1. While estimates vary, the distance from one end of the universe to the other is around probably no less than 30 billion light years wide. A light year is a measure of distance that equals roughly 5.9 billion miles. If ours is in fact the only planet that houses life, why exactly would a deity create a universe that is so incredibly inefficient?

2. Please explain how the Clovis culture, often thought to be some of the first inhabitants of the Americas somewhere between 11 and 13,000 years ago relates to the concept of your particular belief set.

3. Considering all the religions that exist today and have existed in the past, why is yours more relevant than any other?

I'll do my best to give Jewish answers.

1. Seems like God had this conversation with Job. Where was I when God was busy creating the universe?

2. So what? Torah recognizes that there were people before God revealed himself to Abraham. Noah and Adam are names you might recognize from times before Judaism.

3. This question makes no sense to a Jew. As long as you worship the One True God, we don't care whether you claim to be Jewish, Baptist, Catholic, Protestant, or whatever.

[Chuck Bao]

Christianity is, to my knowledge, the only "religion" based on empirical evidence. It welcomes scrutiny. Sir Bernard Ramsey became an ardent believer after setting out to prove Luke's account of "The Acts of the Apostles" to be inaccurate. He kept discovering the towns Luke alluded to in Paul's missionary journeys through the new science of archaeology.

As to the miracles of Jesus: Even his enemies didn't attempt to disprove them, they just attributed them to demonic influence

As to the resurrection: Christianity rises or falls on this point alone. Everything else is moot in the face of the power of life and death. His post-resurrection appearances were random in timing, location, and in audience. From one to 500 people at a time over 40 days. Mass delusion doesn't explain that pattern. While I would love for Him to have walked into Pilate's presence and say, "Hey, remember Me?", only believers were chosen. I suppose this reinforces "Blessed are those who have NOT seen Me, and yet believe.", as well as the faith aspect.

I am a Christian. I do not believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. It is a pretty good instruction manual, though, but only the New Testament.

My biggest problem is with the Old Testament. Some scholars have concluded that it was written in 1200-1500 BC to create an identity for a relatively small kingdom of shepherds. There is no historic evidence of a Moses. At that time, there were several religions of one true and all-powerful God. Look at Egypt’s failed attempt at promoting a monotheistic religion of Aten about 1340BC. There isn’t even much historic record of a King David. But, the History Channel did an episode on him in Battles BC and he was portrayed as bloodthirsty thug (based only on Biblical accounts). So to answer one of your questions, Johnny Mack, if the ancient Israelites had met the Clovis people, they would have killed every man, woman and child and taken their land. I guess faith conversion to the one true and all-powerful God hadn’t caught on at that time.

This is an honest question: are there any historic accounts of Jesus during his ministry here on Earth? Most of the New Testament was written or at least distributed 30-50 years later and from that point on there is, of course, lots of independent historic accounts of the new fledgling religion. Maybe some of the historic accounts were erased, as were some of the Gnostic Gospels that didn’t make the cut in our inspired Bible.

The fact that the universe, our universe, is 30 billion light years across is not such a pressing thought for me. But, I love the idea that there is life out there. I am more interested in the local biology and Fraggle’s post just blew my mind.

[Collier11]

Yes, Jesus was real and lived on Earth

[MR2-Sooner86]

Because it is based on truth, as revealed in Scripture.

Oh the Bible you mean? Yeah...because we know it's based on true :rolleyes:

So I guess the Earth is really 6,000 years old and people were walking around with dinosaurs.

Remember Jonah and the whale? Oh wait, in the Bible it says a great fish.

I guess Noah was also able to fit the billions of species on our planet and spread them around.

As for Jesus...why not read up on the Egyptian god Horus?
He was called 'the Savior.'
He claimed to heal the sick.
Was a god ordinary people could look up to.
He saved people from the underworld.
Was born of a virgin.

Oh yeah, this has been recorded well over 1,000 years before Jesus was suppose to walk the Earth.

Lets also look at the Bible. The "good book" and "moral compass" we should all follow.


However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)


Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15)



If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)


If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. (Leviticus 20:13)


A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9)


They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)


If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)


Also, who wrote the Bible? We don't know.
Why were some books left out and others not?
Why was there a comity of men to pick the books of the Bible?

I could go on and on and on and on and on but I think I've made my point.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I wish God would smite about a half-dozen of you obnoxious *******s from the face of the planet.

1 Samuel 15:3 (King James Version)

3Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.

[C&CDean]

You're on the list Juan.

[TheUnnamedSooner]

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

If this was enforced rape cases would go way down.

;)

[Leroy Lizard]

Oh the Bible you mean? Yeah...because we know it's based on true

All that you have written are mere words. Truth doesn't reveal itself by merely reading the Bible for the words, but rather by coming to a revelation with Jesus Christ.

Your post is a classic example of trying to divine truth from Holy scriptures by decoding the words. It doesn't work like that.

At least, that is what Christians have told me. And they certainly believe it; they're not funnin' around. Obviously the Bible means much more to them then a mere collection of stories.

[MR2-Sooner86]

All that you have written are mere words. Truth doesn't reveal itself by merely reading the Bible for the words, but rather by coming to a revelation with Jesus Christ.

Uh huh. Smells like bullsh*t to me.

So what about the book of Mormon? Is it just words? Do I have to come to a revelation with Joseph Smith? Do I need to come to a revelation with Xenu to get Scientology? Muhammad to get Islam?


Your post is a classic example of trying to divine truth from Holy scriptures by decoding the words. It doesn't work like that.

Decoding the words? There's no decoding. Kill gays. Kill disobedient children. Make a woman marry the person who raped her. Slavery is alright. God is a very angry and jealous God. Sounds pretty straightforward to me.


And they certainly believe it; they're not funnin' around. Obviously the Bible means much more to them then a mere collection of stories.

And Scientologist think alien souls inhabit our bodies and are passionate about it. Mormons think Jesus visited North America and Indians are really Jews. Doesn't mean it's true though.

[Leroy Lizard]

Uh huh. Smells like bullsh*t to me.

Go back to my first post. I clearly stated that Truth is revealed to those that accept Jesus Christ in their hearts.

You haven't done so, so your inability to see the truth is understandable.

When your time comes to enter the Pearly Gates, you can offer Peter your logical arguments and see if he is willing to go with the flow.



So what about the book of Mormon? Is it just words? Do I have to come to a revelation with Joseph Smith? Do I need to come to a revelation with Xenu to get Scientology? Muhammad to get Islam?

You need to ask those that can answer. I haven't even experienced the Christian revelation. How would I answer for Mormons?


Decoding the words? There's no decoding. Kill gays. Kill disobedient children. Make a woman marry the person who raped her. Slavery is alright. God is a very angry and jealous God. Sounds pretty straightforward to me.

Those are your human interpretations. What do they really mean to the true Christian? The only way to truly know is to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and read the Holy Bible for its truth.

BTW, my gut feeling is that some of your quotes are taken out of context. (And others may be from the Old Testament. I'm not sure all Christian denominations follow the Old Testament.)


And Scientologist think alien souls inhabit our bodies and are passionate about it. Mormons think Jesus visited North America and Indians are really Jews. Doesn't mean it's true though.

They THINK, but do they KNOW?

This is the point I am making. You are reading the Bible as if it was a lab manual. The Bible is a living document to Christians, meaning that truth appears in its reading, not the decoding of its words into English. Ministers help parishioners understand how this meaning affects their daily lives.

The fact that you cannot comprehend this just means that you will likely be turned into a Sooner86-kabob after you die. :)

Of course, Catholics have a slightly different take on things.

[Chuck Bao]

Wouldn't it just blow your mind if God is really male and you really had to have great sex to make the cut into Heaven. Females are short-listed. Gays that got down on their knees to worship too. Straight guys have to spend eternity together get the firey pit

[Leroy Lizard]

Wouldn't it just blow your mind if God is really male and you really had to have great sex to make the cut into Heaven. Females are short-listed. Gays that got down on their knees to worship too. Straight guys have to spend eternity together get the firey pit

I know what God is thinking right now: "It's tough enough being the Almighty, but I also have to listen to this **** all day."

[MR2-Sooner86]

Oh gosh where to start.


Go back to my first post. I clearly stated that Truth is revealed to those that accept Jesus Christ in their hearts.

You haven't done so, so your inability to see the truth is understandable.

Christian: The Earth is 6,000 years old and everything in the Bible about the Earth being created in six days is FACT!
Me: No it isn't.
Christian: YOU don't know Jesus so you just don't understand!
Me: But there's carbon dating and what about the dinosaurs?
Christian: If you read the Bible then it explains that. Again if you except Jesus you'll know this stuff.
Me: The Bible also says the world is flat.
Christian: Jesus explains that part too.
Me: You never explained dinosaur bones.
Christian: Satan put them there to question our faith. (NOTE: I **** you not I had a Christian tell me that.)


When your time comes to enter the Pearly Gates, you can offer Peter your logical arguments and see if he is willing to go with the flow.

Yeah I'll have a nice little chat with him along with Zeus, Buddha, and the Pope.


You need to ask those that can answer. I haven't even experienced the Christian revelation. How would I answer for Mormons?

If you haven't accepted, they why go through the hassle to act like one?


Those are your human interpretations. What do they really mean to the true Christian? The only way to truly know is to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and read the Holy Bible for its truth.

Ah yes, "human interpretations" are what I'm seeing? I guess when you accept Jesus the text in the Bible changes and you see the real thing.

It's like trying to tell a kid there is no Santa Claus.


BTW, my gut feeling is that some of your quotes are taken out of context. (And others may be from the Old Testament. I'm not sure all Christian denominations follow the Old Testament.)

It's not taken out of context. How can it be taken out of context? Go read it yourself and you'll find out. God laid down the laws of the land and there it is.

The Bible is the Old and New Testament so of course they follow it.


They THINK, but do they KNOW?

Christians also don't KNOW anything. This is where faith comes in.

They just KNOW a zombie will save them, Adam and Eve were the first people, and a boat saved humanity. They have NO evidence though. Again, it's faith, not knowing.


This is the point I am making. You are reading the Bible as if it was a lab manual. The Bible is a living document to Christians, meaning that truth appears in its reading, not the decoding of its words into English. Ministers help parishioners understand how this meaning affects their daily lives.

Decoding to use in my daily life? Ok, tell me this then.

Why is it so bad to pull out of a girl and blow your load on the floor that God must kill you? How does THAT affect my life?

How about two women sleeping with their father and having children?

Oh yes, cum on the floor will make God kill your *** but incest is perfectly fine.


The fact that you cannot comprehend this just means that you will likely be turned into a Sooner86-kabob after you die. :)

Again with the Santa Claus argument. Kids are pissed when they find out they were lied to. When they find out Jesus was a lie LOOK OUT!


Of course, Catholics have a slightly different take on things.

So do Baptist, Methodist, Protestants, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, and Lutherans.

Who's right?

[Leroy Lizard]

Christian: The Earth is 6,000 years old and everything in the Bible about the Earth being created in six days is FACT!
Me: No it isn't.
Christian: YOU don't know Jesus so you just don't understand!
Me: But there's carbon dating and what about the dinosaurs?
Christian: If you read the Bible then it explains that. Again if you except Jesus you'll know this stuff.
Me: The Bible also says the world is flat.
Christian: Jesus explains that part too.
Me: You never explained dinosaur bones.
Christian: Satan put them there to question our faith. (NOTE: I **** you not I had a Christian tell me that.)

When I spoke of Truth, I was referring to such grandiose topics like "What is the meaning of life?; who is the one true God?; What is a truly Christian living?"

Dinosaur bones? They're not even mentioned in The Bible.


Why is it so bad to pull out of a girl and blow your load on the floor that God must kill you? How does THAT affect my life?

Uhhh, God is not a Libertarian. Not even close.


How about two women sleeping with their father and having children?

Not sure what you mean.


Again with the Santa Claus argument. Kids are pissed when they find out they were lied to. When they find out Jesus was a lie LOOK OUT!

Are they going to rise from the dead?


So do Baptist, Methodist, Protestants, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, and Lutherans.

Who's right?

Quite possibly they could all be.

[MR2-Sooner86]

When I spoke of Truth, I was referring to such grandiose topics like "What is the meaning of life?; who is the one true God?; What is a truly Christian living?"

Nobody knows. All we do know is we have one life so we better make the most of it.


Dinosaur bones? They're not even mentioned in The Bible.

Funny because many think dinosaurs are in the Bible.

Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox. What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly! His tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are close-knit. His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron. He ranks first among the works of God, yet his Maker can approach him with his sword. (Job 40:15-19).


Uhhh, God is not a Libertarian. Not even close.

But do you KNOW he's not a libertarian?


Not sure what you mean.

The store of Lot and his daughters.


Are they going to rise from the dead?

If Tebow touches them then maybe.


Quite possibly they could all be.

There are contradictions so one has to be wrong somewhere.

[jkjsooner]

FAITH! The keyword is faith. People have faith in that their religion is the true religion. I am a Christian whom is currently a member of a Baptist church and I have faith and believe that the King James Version of the Holy Bible is the word of God. Many of you have legit questions. I used to be like many of you.....I wondered how can anyone say that their religion is the one and true religion or why would God create a universe as big as it is only to have life on earth or I would be curious in the carbon dating. But this is what I know...It is a fact that everyone of us on this board will one day DIE. Its inevitable. Now, I would rather die being saved and having faith that I will go to Heaven compared to dying, not being saved, and burning in hell. If there is a God/Jesus Christ, everyone who has doubted Christ will burn in hell. Back to the subject, Faith is the key to everything. I've had prayers answered (and I don't consider them coincidences). Hopefully this helps....BOOMER!

I might be wrong but I've known plenty of "you have to know that you know" types of Baptist preachers. In their eyes anything short of absolute knowledge is not true faith.

Those are the ones who really made it difficult for me. I tried so hard to have the absolute certainty that they said they had but each time I told myself that I did I knew I was lying to myself.

It also didn't help that they would trot a serious drug user who found Christ and has some transformative experience. It might have worked with the troubled kids but for the ones who tried to live a good/clean/wholesome life, well, we just can't relate nor are we primed to have that transformational experience that those people felt.

Now I'm resigned to believe more in the idea that faith is just that - faith - and that is good enough. I realize that that doesn't jive very well with some of the more fundamentalist teachings.

[SCOUT]

It is consistently pointed out that science can very rarely, if ever, prove something with absolute certainty. The example frequently used is gravity. I have no issue with this.

I find it interesting though, that when it comes to matters of faith, certainty is the bar that needs to be cleared.

My answer to about 500 of the questions so politely posed in this thread is that those things are my beliefs. I believe in Jesus Christ and I believe that he was the son of God. I can't prove scientifically that my beliefs are correct, nor do I feel that I need to.

Please feel free to continue with the childish snarks and generally condescending comments.

[Okla-homey]

Wouldn't it just blow your mind if God is really male and you really had to have great sex to make the cut into Heaven. Females are short-listed. Gays that got down on their knees to worship too. Straight guys have to spend eternity together get the firey pit

Not possible. He made Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve.

All His winged, scaled, hooved, clawed and primate creation belies the fact heterosexuality is pursuant to His plan. That other thing is just a sterile and lifeless dead-end.

Your problem is you just never met the right gal.;)

[Leroy Lizard]

Christians also don't KNOW anything. This is where faith comes in.

They just KNOW a zombie will save them, Adam and Eve were the first people, and a boat saved humanity. They have NO evidence though. Again, it's faith, not knowing.

I use "know" in place of "faith" in situations where the reader has a revelation that is so strong and convincing that to them there can be no question as to its reality. "Faith" sounds weak, as in "I hope it's right." Christian faith is far stronger than that.

Suppose that you were walking down the sidewalk and met a man who spoke to you. No one else saw him, and it seems illogical that this man was there (for various reasons). Sure, everyone can try to talk you into thinking otherwise, but you KNOW you talked to him. You saw him. When he spoke, you heard him. What your neighbor thinks is irrelevant. To you, there is no doubt about it.

What I am saying is that to Christians the revelation is just as strong. This does not necessarily mean they are right, but attempting to logically convince them they are wrong is pointless, because they KNOW they spoke to God and they clearly heard what he had to say.

And this is why these arguments are pointless. You are trying to convince someone of something that contradicts their own personal experience, especially one that is divine. Not gonna happen.


But do you KNOW he's not a libertarian?

Nothing that I have heard about Jesus indicates that he is a "do whatever thrills you" type of guy.

[Boarder]

Oh gosh where to start.
Christian: The Earth is 6,000 years old and everything in the Bible about the Earth being created in six days is FACT!
Me: No it isn't.

Hold up there, straw-man. That would be a literalist 6-day creation Christian.

[JohnnyMack]

I use "know" in place of "faith" in situations where the reader has a revelation that is so strong and convincing that to them there can be no question as to its reality. "Faith" sounds weak, as in "I hope it's right." Christian faith is far stronger than that.

Suppose that you were walking down the sidewalk and met a man who spoke to you. No one else saw him, and it seems illogical that this man was there (for various reasons). Sure, everyone can try to talk you into thinking otherwise, but you KNOW you talked to him. You saw him. When he spoke, you heard him. What your neighbor thinks is irrelevant. To you, there is no doubt about it.

What I am saying is that to Christians the revelation is just as strong. This does not necessarily mean they are right, but attempting to logically convince them they are wrong is pointless, because they KNOW they spoke to God and they clearly heard what he had to say.

And this is why these arguments are pointless. You are trying to convince someone of something that contradicts their own personal experience, especially one that is divine. Not gonna happen.


If I may step in here I would like to thank you for helping me illustrate a point. The point being that faith is what you make of it. Faith is worth exactly what you put into it. It isn't measurable or quantifiable. What one person places their faith in is no more or less legitimate than anyone else. If I say that I truly believe that a can of Spam talked to me and told me 8 virtuous principles to live by, it's absolutely no different than a Christian following the teachings of the Bible.

I suppose you could argue that I have developed faith in the idea that the actual word of the Christian religion isn't accurate. I have furthered that faith to extend to the premise that all religion isn't accurate. Clearly I have no way of knowing if this is accurate or not as neither does one who adamantly follows the teachings of Christianity. I have faith that when I die it will be as it was before I was born. If I'm wrong Hitler and I will be having hot lava poured in our eyes in a Sisyphean manner.

Ultimately I have concluded that religion isn't for me. It isn't for lack of exposure to it or lack of understanding of what different religions offer, rather that when I apply things like science, sociology and history as a litmus test to the concept of religion it fails.

[LosAngelesSooner]

FAITH! The keyword is faith. People have faith in that their religion is the true religion. I am a Christian whom is currently a member of a Baptist church and I have faith and believe that the King James Version of the Holy Bible is the word of God. Many of you have legit questions. I used to be like many of you.....I wondered how can anyone say that their religion is the one and true religion or why would God create a universe as big as it is only to have life on earth or I would be curious in the carbon dating. But this is what I know...It is a fact that everyone of us on this board will one day DIE. Its inevitable. Now, I would rather die being saved and having faith that I will go to Heaven compared to dying, not being saved, and burning in hell. If there is a God/Jesus Christ, everyone who has doubted Christ will burn in hell. Back to the subject, Faith is the key to everything. I've had prayers answered (and I don't consider them coincidences). Hopefully this helps....BOOMER!

So...you really DON'T have faith...you're just utilizing Pascal's Gambit.

[fadada1]

i don't have to read the 100+ posts to know that much of this is NOT going well.

to paraphase norm peterson, "this is like handing the atom bomb to a pack of spider monkeys."

[Leroy Lizard]

I actually agree with LAS. Is this the seventh sign?


If I say that I truly believe that a can of Spam talked to me and told me 8 virtuous principles to live by, it's absolutely no different than a Christian following the teachings of the Bible.

Except that a whole lot of people have been talking to the Spam. So Christianity cannot be equated to a single person's hallucination.



If I'm wrong Hitler and I will be having hot lava poured in our eyes in a Sisyphean manner.

Well, I'm not sure what kind of Sisyphean task this would relate to, but yeah.


Ultimately I have concluded that religion isn't for me. It isn't for lack of exposure to it or lack of understanding of what different religions offer, rather that when I apply things like science, sociology and history as a litmus test to the concept of religion it fails.

There is one small problem: Too many talented scientists have done both, so there might not be an inherent contradiction between the two, as you have imagined.

[JohnnyMack]

There is one small problem: Too many talented scientists have done both, so there might not be an inherent contradiction between the two, as you have imagined.

You can't tell me my opinion is wrong any more than I can tell you your opinion is wrong. Again, for me personally, when I examine organized religions, they don't cut the mustard. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right.

[Collier11]

Faith and Belief in God arent an opinion so if you tell me there is no God I can tell you that you are wrong based off of my beliefs. Now in your eyes I may be wrong but you are just saying that because you havent seen proof therefore you choose not to believe

[SanJoaquinSooner]

http://www.carcosa.net/jason/blog_images/2007/06/18/god_is_angry_2007-06-18-17-30.jpg

[Collier11]

thanks for again offering very little to the board other than your lust for VET.

[Leroy Lizard]

You can't tell me my opinion is wrong any more than I can tell you your opinion is wrong. Again, for me personally, when I examine organized religions, they don't cut the mustard. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right.

You read more into my message than intended.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

thanks for again offering very little to the board other than your lust for VET.

Collier, now don't feel too bad you missed Sunday School the week they talked about the Jews.

[SCOUT]

So...you really DON'T have faith...you're just utilizing Pascal's Gambit.

I would wager against. Of course, that would be a matter of faith.

[JohnnyMack]

Faith and Belief in God arent an opinion so if you tell me there is no God I can tell you that you are wrong based off of my beliefs. Now in your eyes I may be wrong but you are just saying that because you havent seen proof therefore you choose not to believe

It is an opinion. You have absolutely zero proof that the Christian teachings about the afterlife are true. You're basing your assumption on faith. No more. You want it, or maybe even need it to be true, but it doesn't mean what you believe is true. Now I'll admit that my set of beliefs isn't verifiable either, but the conclusion I've come to is something I'm ok with, just as you are accepting of yours. I'm ok admitting that I don't know. You're not. All you're doing is putting down black to my red on Pascal's wager.

[C&CDean]

JM,

Admitting you don't know is not = to bashing religion/christians.

I don't know just like you. Alls I do know is that there are times - especially when I'm alone out in the woods or mountains, that I can feel the spirit/presence/existence - whatever word you wanna choose - of God. I feel it in a beautiful sunset or sunrise. I feel it when one of those monstrous Oklahoma thunderstorms is kicking up. I feel it when I wonder how I'm going to get by, and all of a sudden my needs are provided for - over and over again.

I can't say "I guess I'm so damn smart/good that I just figured all this **** out all on my own and all of my success and happiness is because I worked hard to achieve it." There's times I've done really stupid ****, and deserve to lose my *** - but for whatever reason, the Man has got me back on track. I believe in the power of prayer primarily because I've seen prayers answered many times, and what's funny/great about it is they're rarely answered in exactly the way you expect. Sometimes you think God isn't listening because some **** goes down that you didn't really want. After a while though, you look back and have to marvel at the wisdom of God. He knows more about us than we know about ourselves.

I can give one quick example. When I divorced my first wife I thought my life was over. Bummed out, broke, and constantly asking God why. Hell, I was a good guy and didn't deserve this bull****. Got married again. Lasted a couple of years and I wondered the same thing. Then I met momma, and I've had 14 years of the best life has to offer. God knew what he was doing.

[Veritas]

1. While estimates vary, the distance from one end of the universe to the other is around probably no less than 30 billion light years wide. A light year is a measure of distance that equals roughly 5.9 billion miles. If ours is in fact the only planet that houses life, why exactly would a deity create a universe that is so incredibly inefficient?

2. Please explain how the Clovis culture, often thought to be some of the first inhabitants of the Americas somewhere between 11 and 13,000 years ago relates to the concept of your particular belief set.

3. Considering all the religions that exist today and have existed in the past, why is yours more relevant than any other?
I'm going to skip the seven page flame war an just answer the OP
1) There's probably life on other planets.
2) The earth is bajillions of years old, so...that makes sense.
3) Other than the concept of grace, there isn't really any difference between my beliefs and the others. But that grace thing is really important, really misunderstood, and really ignored by many Christians in favor of ugliness, piety, and elitism. I'll talk about it more if you're interested but grace...grace is the thing. The concept of Grace is the only reason I didn't say "**** it" with belief a long time ago.

[SoonerAtKU]

Except that a whole lot of people have been talking to the Spam. So Christianity cannot be equated to a single person's hallucination.

This particular Spam has had 2000 years to build up a following, not to mention the support of a great number of emperors and the wealthiest non-taxpaying entity in the history of the world. It helps.

;)

[Fraggle145]

It is consistently pointed out that science can very rarely, if ever, prove something with absolute certainty. The example frequently used is gravity. I have no issue with this.

I find it interesting though, that when it comes to matters of faith, certainty is the bar that needs to be cleared.

For me that isnt the problem. It is disproveability. It is impossible to disprove. Most things in science although almost impossible to be proven with absolute certainty can be disproven. And in most cases rather easily.

[49r]

1. While estimates vary, the distance from one end of the universe to the other is around probably no less than 30 billion light years wide. A light year is a measure of distance that equals roughly 5.9 billion miles. If ours is in fact the only planet that houses life, why exactly would a deity create a universe that is so incredibly inefficient?

2. Please explain how the Clovis culture, often thought to be some of the first inhabitants of the Americas somewhere between 11 and 13,000 years ago relates to the concept of your particular belief set.

3. Considering all the religions that exist today and have existed in the past, why is yours more relevant than any other?

I'll only address the first question here, because frankly, I believe what I believe and I don't give a **** what anyone else believes, nor do I care what anyone else thinks about my beliefs.

But, as far as the question of whether there's life out there I would say that the answer is undoubtedly yes. Here's why.

The Milky Way galaxy is believed to be home to 100-400 billion stars, of which our sun, Sol, is just one. When you consider that the Earth actually DOES support life, and it's believed that Mars may have supported at least some type of bacterial life at one time, I would say the odds that there are hundreds, thousands, millions, heck, even billions of planets just in our local galaxy that are capable of supporting life either in the past, currently, or in the future are nearly 100%

Then when you consider that there are 170 billion galaxies in the observable universe (otherwords, what we can SEE of the universe), each compromised of as few as 10,000 stars and as many as a trillion stars or more, the odds of there being life elsewhere becomes so mind-boggingly likely that it's impossible to imagine (for me at least) that we are actually alone in the universe.

Now, this isn't to say that there are any other examples of what we would call "intelligent" life anywhere else. But what do we know about intelligence anyway? All we know is that we are here and what we have on our Earth, that's it. I would expect that there will never be an example of beady eyed aliens with two arms and two legs and a big ol melon like the typical person thinks of when they think of extra terrestrial life. Then again, the average person has a hard time with the concept of hundreds of billions of galaxies each with hundreds of billions of stars in them.

[JohnnyMack]

beady eyed aliens with two arms and two legs and a big ol melon

SicEm?

[OUMallen]

My question:

If God is all-benevolent, then why does He allow needless pain and suffering? If He is all-benevolent, and also omnipotent, He would never allow for needless pain and suffering. So He's either not all-benevolent or not omnipotent.

[Sooner in Tampa]

I too skipped the 7 page argument to simply say:

For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don’t believe, no proof is possible.

[Collier11]

I do think there is far too much time spent between believers and non-believers arguing. Neither one is going to be swayed away from their beliefs and while neither one can physically prove what they believe, they know why they believe in it and they know it to be true to themselves.

As Christians if someone is a non-believer it is nice to have discussions with non-believers because you never know when they are looking for a reason to believe but im also not gonna sit here and say "you have to believe now"

[OhU1]

For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don’t believe, no proof is possible.

Your first statement is correct, your second is not. The problem (for some of us) is there is no objective proof or fact that supports the supernatural. Give us some and we will re-consider.

[C&CDean]

My question:

If God is all-benevolent, then why does He allow needless pain and suffering? If He is all-benevolent, and also omnipotent, He would never allow for needless pain and suffering. So He's either not all-benevolent or not omnipotent.

Have you got some pain and suffering headed your way. Whoo boy.

[Collier11]

The proof is in Christs Teachings, it is up to you if you want to take them to heart or not

[OhU1]

The proof is in Christs Teachings, it is up to you if you want to take them to heart or not

I think I see some circular reasoning here.......

[yermom]

i like that's what Collier means in Latin ;)

[virginiasooner]

Skipping through most of this thread . . .
My belief in God is not diminished by scientific discoveries. To the contrary, everything we learn about our universe and our planet reveals how powerful God is. Evolutionary theory doesn't scare me in the least. It does not challenge my belief in the least bit. And if it does, so what? If your belief system cannot countenance any sort of criticism, then it's pretty weak.

[MrJimBeam]

I think what strikes me most about this thread is the difference in the tone of the post of the skeptics compared to those by the believers.

[Collier11]

Skipping through most of this thread . . .
My belief in God is not diminished by scientific discoveries. To the contrary, everything we learn about our universe and our planet reveals how powerful God is. Evolutionary theory doesn't scare me in the least. It does not challenge my belief in the least bit. And if it does, so what? If your belief system cannot countenance any sort of criticism, then it's pretty weak.

well said

[ouwasp]

Several yrs ago I was visiting w/ an athiest friend. He said: "I'm not sure what comes after death. I don't know and I'm comfortable not knowing."

This reminded me of something that I'd read Timothy McVeigh had said in an interview, shortly before his execution. He didn't believe in God, thought just an extinguishing was coming. He was asked what if he was wrong? McVei gh responded: "I'm a soldier. I'll improvise, adapt, and overcome..."

So be it.

I would rather lean on something more substantial than my own life's experiences. I'll trust in John 14:6.

Rev 1:8 states this: "I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."[/B]

I'm glad I'm on His side. :)

[OhU1]

Timothy McVeigh had said in an interview, shortly before his execution. He didn't believe in God


I thought McVeigh talked to a priest and repented. Doesn't that mean McVeigh is in heaven right now?

[Collier11]

well, Im not sure that he did or not but if he did repent and was sincere then it is plausible...you cant just do it for the sake of doing it, God knows who is sincere and who isnt

[OUMallen]

Have you got some pain and suffering headed your way. Whoo boy.

I already suffer under your moderating regime, Dean. :P

[C&CDean]

Oh don't worry, I can crank up the heat if'n I got a need to...supa

[OUMallen]

Oh don't worry, I can crank up the heat if'n I got a need to...supa

That actually wasn't my idea. It's a logical proof that was floating centuries ago that remains unanswered.

[SicEmBaylor]

My question:

If God is all-benevolent, then why does He allow needless pain and suffering? If He is all-benevolent, and also omnipotent, He would never allow for needless pain and suffering. So He's either not all-benevolent or not omnipotent.

The answer you always get is that it's part of God's plan. I find this to be absurd. My own belief is that God does not interfere with our lives either for good or bad -- he allows us to make what we will of life.

However, it's a logical fallacy. If God created man in his image than God is a logical and rational being. It's difficult for me to find the rationality in a God that creates Tsunamis that kill thousands or taking the life of a small child, etc.

The best answer is that these things happen because God has nothing to do with it. Bad things happen...that's life and sometimes there's no rhyme or reason to it.

[jkjsooner]

Here's one thing that bothers me about some. When these discussions first start up you always get a circular argument which can be boiled down to something like the following:

The Bible is God's word because it says so in the Bible.

Usually there are multiple steps in the middle but it generally can be simplified to this.

Then, when pinned down about the circular nature of the argument you start hearing about how God has talked to the believer or the believer feels God's presence and this drives his faith. That's fine. I can buy the logic of it but why start out with all sorts of circular arguments. Why not just state in the beginning why you are such a strong believer?

This, of course, doesn't apply to everyone. It just seems to be a common thread.

[Collier11]

A question for non believers...If God suddenly appeared to everyone in the world ala the visitors in the show V and made a statement saying This is your Last Chance or Im here for you, what are you waiting for. Something to that affect, would you change or would you continue to reject him?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Careful. Don't preach the Revelation.

[JLEW1818]

I'd probably say, Photosynthesis is man made

[Collier11]

Careful. Don't preach the Revelation.

im just curious :D I really dont see a great reason for not following God unless you just dont care. I mean, what is it gonna hurt

[Tulsa_Fireman]

im just curious :D I really dont see a great reason for not following God unless you just dont care. I mean, what is it gonna hurt

And I won't preach the outcome if you add or take away from the contents within. And given folks have been trying to interpret the Revelation since it's been on paper, and you being a God fearing man, do you REEEEEALLY want to take that chance?

[Collier11]

Im confident

[JohnnyMack]

Talk about a book written by a whack job.

[C&CDean]

Says armageddon boy.

[yermom]

im just curious :D I really dont see a great reason for not following God unless you just dont care. I mean, what is it gonna hurt

and we are back to Pascal's Wager...

[JohnnyMack]

Dumble-what?

[Collier11]

didnt think you would answer, so is it fear or stubbornness :D

[PDXsooner]

God knows who is sincere and who isnt

Sounds like Santa Claus.

[PDXsooner]

A question for non believers...If God suddenly appeared to everyone in the world ala the visitors in the show V and made a statement saying This is your Last Chance or Im here for you, what are you waiting for. Something to that affect, would you change or would you continue to reject him?

if by non-believers you're including people who believe in god but aren't "christian"...

...considering it was enough to convince me that it was really god i'd most likely change. i mean, i'm not evil...i don't "reject" christ for some evil reason...it just isn't believable enough to me. if something that powerful happened, sure, i'd change.

on that same discussion, if you were dying and mohammed appeared in front of you in an out-of-body experience and said that he is the way to the light...would you follow him or reject him? what if all of a sudden you died and were in a hell-like existence with pure evil, and you realized christians were wrong all along...yet you had one chance to accept another god for eternal salvation...would you?

[Turd_Ferguson]

on that same discussion, if you were dying and mohammed appeared in front of you in an out-of-body experience and said that he is the way to the light...would you follow him or reject him? what if all of a sudden you died and were in a hell-like existence with pure evil, and you realized christians were wrong all along...yet you had one chance to accept another god for eternal salvation...would you?I'd wait till I got my 72 virgins, then I'd kill him with a snipe shot from a 1000yds.

[Collier11]

if by non-believers you're including people who believe in god but aren't "christian"...

...considering it was enough to convince me that it was really god i'd most likely change. i mean, i'm not evil...i don't "reject" christ for some evil reason...it just isn't believable enough to me. if something that powerful happened, sure, i'd change.

on that same discussion, if you were dying and mohammed appeared in front of you in an out-of-body experience and said that he is the way to the light...would you follow him or reject him? what if all of a sudden you died and were in a hell-like existence with pure evil, and you realized christians were wrong all along...yet you had one chance to accept another god for eternal salvation...would you?

Just to be clear, I have no motives in asking that...just curious

As to your question, if I had died momentarily and saw myself in Hell I would rely on God that much more to make sure I dont go to that place because I trust my beliefs that strongly

[Leroy Lizard]

Then, when pinned down about the circular nature of the argument you start hearing about how God has talked to the believer or the believer feels God's presence and this drives his faith. That's fine. I can buy the logic of it but why start out with all sorts of circular arguments. Why not just state in the beginning why you are such a strong believer?

Because the questioning tactics of non-believers tend to not allow a believer to just summarize their beliefs like that. Instead, the believer is asked a series of questions, each seemingly innocent enough on its surface but each designed to elicit a response that is not quite what the believer truly thinks, like being put on trial.

After awhile, you can be lead down the path to defending an illogical conclusion. After you've been involved in enough of these interrogations (and that is pretty much what they are), you can spot them ahead of time.

[jkjsooner]

Here's a question. Let's say the Muslims or some modern day Romans asked you to disavow Christ or else face death. Is your belief strong enough? If you say yes and you're sincere, I respect the heck out of you.

I'd love to say the same but I don't know....

[Collier11]

Its gonna happen if you believe the Bible, not romans or muslims but if I remember correctly those on Earth are gonna told to take the mark of the beast or be shot.

Personally, if the world ever got to that point id rather not be around anyway and id gladly tell them to shoot me...yes, I have that much Faith in God

[JLEW1818]

ditto

[OULenexaman]

what a whacky thread....2012 is coming.....lets see if the Mayan's are right....so far it seems to be starting early....

[sooner59]

Its gonna happen if you believe the Bible, not romans or muslims but if I remember correctly those on Earth are gonna told to take the mark of the beast or be shot.

Personally, if the world ever got to that point id rather not be around anyway and id gladly tell them to shoot me...yes, I have that much Faith in God

I'd tell them to shoot me as well. But not for the same reason. Living in a free country spoiled me. I would rather be shot by defending my own free will than be a slave or a puppet for whoever was doing the marking. Sort of like dying for your freedom.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

My 12 gauge shoots muslim invaders for Jesus!

Praise be to God. Pass the double-ought.

[olevetonahill]

1. While estimates vary, the distance from one end of the universe to the other is around probably no less than 30 billion light years wide. A light year is a measure of distance that equals roughly 5.9 billion miles. If ours is in fact the only planet that houses life, why exactly would a deity create a universe that is so incredibly inefficient?

2. Please explain how the Clovis culture, often thought to be some of the first inhabitants of the Americas somewhere between 11 and 13,000 years ago relates to the concept of your particular belief set.

3. Considering all the religions that exist today and have existed in the past, why is yours more relevant than any other?

Ok juan mack .

#1 God works in mysterious ways .;)
# 2 Has not a dayum thing to do with Christianity !
#3 Mine Dont . cause I dont give a **** what ya think versus what I think .:rolleyes:

[goingoneight]

Why do people bother to compare their beliefs?

Why do people give a shat where we come from?

Why do people get so damb offended when you tell them we evolved from monkies?

Why do people knock walk into my yard with a book and yak at me when I'm mowing the lawn?

Why do people feel it necessary to rip on someone for believing or not believing?

Why do people claim to be good Christians, then a mere five minutes outside the church they turn back into swearing, smoking etc's?

If God created us, why am I supposed to care? It's not like I'll ever truly know this.

If some big bang happened and poof! Society evolves! Who cares about that, either?

Who the hell got to this last question without losing interest?

[Collier11]

Why do people bother to compare their beliefs?

well, even though it is something that will never be agreed on, it is a fun discussion

Why do people give a shat where we come from?

meh

Why do people get so damb offended when you tell them we evolved from monkies?

cus its retarded

Why do people knock walk into my yard with a book and yak at me when I'm mowing the lawn?

jerks

Why do people feel it necessary to rip on someone for believing or not believing?

never understood that, its the quickest way for someone to put their defenses up and not have a solid discussion

Why do people claim to be good Christians, then a mere five minutes outside the church they turn back into swearing, smoking etc's?

Being a sinner doesnt make you a bad Christian. Thats an issue I have, people call Christians hypocrites for being normal human beings. Being a Christian doesnt make you perfect, you just try not to do those things

If God created us, why am I supposed to care? It's not like I'll ever truly know this.

well if God did create us which I believe then you should care cus you will truly know once you pass on

If some big bang happened and poof! Society evolves! Who cares about that, either?

The only issue with this is some people think it just happened and some think God made it happen. Not a huge deal, just a point of contention

Who the hell got to this last question without losing interest?

Ive always been bored with you :D

[yermom]

Why do people bother to compare their beliefs?

Why do people give a shat where we come from?

Why do people get so damb offended when you tell them we evolved from monkies?

per the theory, monkey and humans had a common ancestor, we didn't come from monkeys


Why do people knock walk into my yard with a book and yak at me when I'm mowing the lawn?

Why do people feel it necessary to rip on someone for believing or not believing?

Why do people claim to be good Christians, then a mere five minutes outside the church they turn back into swearing, smoking etc's?

If God created us, why am I supposed to care? It's not like I'll ever truly know this.

If some big bang happened and poof! Society evolves! Who cares about that, either?

Who the hell got to this last question without losing interest?

ZZZZZzzzZZZZZZzzzzzz


:D

[Fraggle145]

:D

fish.

[C&CDean]

I did not evolve from some stinkin' assed carp or any of his long-lost relatives either.

[Collier11]

http://www.icanhasforce.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/star-wars-its-a-carp.jpg

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Any religion (and this is most of them) that asks you to accept some sort of mysticism as one of its tenets is asking you to submit to faith. The concept of faith combined with the ultimate unknown question of what happens after we die is what gives religion legs. To me there is no difference between this guy:

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Entertainment/Images/jesus.jpg

and this guy:

http://www.skeptictank.org/applew.jpg

At their core they're both asking you to suspend what is rational and known and to simply trust them. Now Jesus has a better PR firm than Marshall Applewhite did, but neither one of them can offer PROOF that what they speak is true. Now you'll counter that the Bible is the written word, handed down for century after century as the word of the lord and I would caution that longevity doesn't equate to legitimacy.

Go down the line from Moses to Joseph Smith to L. Ron Hubbard. All three of these people fall into a perfect mythological archetype of the messenger. Their story of how they came into possession of the word of their chosen deity are very similar. The movie "The Invention of Lying" gives us another example of the messenger. The point is that while many religions offer nice blueprints on how to build a morally upstanding life, none of them can prove their legitimacy.


Proving once again that JM is the only enlightened one here. Thanks for your arrogant diatribe. I'm cured. There is no god. JM is my saviour.

[TopDawg]

1. While estimates vary, the distance from one end of the universe to the other is around probably no less than 30 billion light years wide. A light year is a measure of distance that equals roughly 5.9 billion miles. If ours is in fact the only planet that houses life, why exactly would a deity create a universe that is so incredibly inefficient?

2. Please explain how the Clovis culture, often thought to be some of the first inhabitants of the Americas somewhere between 11 and 13,000 years ago relates to the concept of your particular belief set.

3. Considering all the religions that exist today and have existed in the past, why is yours more relevant than any other?

Well I haven't taken the time to read this entire thread, but here are my answers.

1) I don't know. IF what you say is true (that ours is the only planet that houses life) I don't know why a deity would create a universe that is so incredibly inefficient. But my belief is that God is all-knowing and I am not, so maybe inefficiency was the best way to go. Or maybe it only seems inefficient. As long as we're free to offer up "ifs" (like you did) then mine is "If God is all-knowing and all-powerful, then I believe that what He did is the best way to do it...even if it doesn't make sense to me."

2) If you're talking about how it relates to my religion's creation story, that's one thing. If you're talking about how it relates to my religion's afterlife theology, that's another. If you're talking about something else...let me know.

3) Relevant to what/who? It's more relevant to me because it's what I believe. I don't think that should make it more relevant to someone else, though.

I'm not all in to proofs. I can't prove one lick of my religion, but you can't disprove one lick of it. I think I can make a logical explanation to support my believe, but I freely acknowledge that a logical explanation can be made to support not believing what I believe.

Your questions are interesting and lead to very...passionate...discussions, but I think they reveal some mistaken assumptions about "believers."

[JohnnyMack]

Proving once again that JM is the only enlightened one here. Thanks for your arrogant diatribe. I'm cured. There is no god. JM is my saviour.

Man I'm not much for signatures, but that one's gonna be hard to resist.

[KC//CRIMSON]

6-story Jesus statue in Ohio struck by lightning, burns to the ground.

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20100615/capt.0143718806704ee6b898076ac9c803cf-0143718806704ee6b898076ac9c803cf-0.jpg

MONROE, Ohio – A six-story-tall statue of Jesus Christ with his arms raised along a highway was struck by lightning in a thunderstorm Monday night and burned to the ground, police said.

The "King of Kings" statue, one of southwest Ohio's most familiar landmarks, had stood since 2004 at the evangelical Solid Rock Church along Interstate 75 in Monroe, just north of Cincinnati.

The lightning strike set the statue ablaze around 11:15 p.m., Monroe police dispatchers said.

The sculpture, 62 feet tall and 40 feet wide at the base, showed Jesus from the torso up and was nicknamed Touchdown Jesus because of the way the arms were raised, similar to a referee signaling a touchdown. It was made of plastic foam and fiberglass over a steel frame, which is all that remained early Tuesday.

JohnnyMack - 7
South Oval - 0

[JohnnyMack]

JohnnyMack - 7
South Oval - 0

I mean I can't take much credit for this one. It was all about my blocking on this. Our QB, Stephen Hawking made a great play fake and Richard Dawkins threw one hell of a block for me, really sealed the edge for me. I just hope coach Carl Sagan sees fit to let me get the start next week. We've got a really important game coming up against the Scientologists, we've really gotta bring our A game if we're gonna make the playoffs this season.

[GrapevineSooner]

I mean I can't take much credit for this one. It was all about my blocking on this. Our QB, Stephen Hawking made a great play fake and Richard Dawkins threw one hell of a block for me, really sealed the edge for me. I just hope coach Carl Sagan sees fit to let me get the start next week. We've got a really important game coming up against the Scientologists, we've really gotta bring our A game if we're gonna make the playoffs this season.

I think God confused this Touchdown Jesus with the one in South Bend.

[Jacie]

what a whacky thread....2012 is coming.....lets see if the Mayan's are right....so far it seems to be starting early....

Yeah, them Mayans were pretty smart fellas. Managed to make themselves extinct before the conquistadores showed up to infect them with smallpox . . .

[Osce0la]

meh, I'll bite on this one:
Old Testament Scriptures That Describe The Coming Messiah
Prophecy / Where it is located in the Old Testament / Where it is fullfilled in the NT

The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed / Genesis 12:3; 18:18 / Acts 3:25,26

The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah / Genesis 49:10 / Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33

The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected) / Psalm 16:10,11 / Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32

The Messiah crucifixion experience / Psalm 22 (contains 11 prophecies—not all listed here) / Matthew 27:34-50 and John 19:17-30

The Messiah will be sneered at and mocked / Psalm 22:7 / Luke 23:11,35-39

The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feet / Psalm 22:16 / Luke 23:33 and 24:36-39; John 19:18 and 20:19-20,24-27

The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death) / Psalm 22:17 and 34:20 / John 19:31-33,36

Men Will Gamble for the Messiah’s clothing / Psalm 22:18 / Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23,24

The Messiah will accused by false witnesses / Psalm 35:11 / Matthew 26:59,60 and Mark 14:56,57

The Messiah will be hated without a cause / Psalm 35:19 and 69:4 / John 15:23-25

The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend / Psalm 41:9 / John 13:18,21

The Messiah will ascend to heaven (at the right hand of God) / Psalm 68:18 / Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9; 2:33-35; 3:20-21; 5:31,32; 7:55-56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20,21; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1 Pet 3:22

The Messiah will be given vinegar and gall to drink / Psalm 69:21 / Matthew 27:34; Mark 15:23; John 19:29,30

Great kings will pay homage and tribute to the Messiah / Psalm 72:10,11 / Matthew 2:1-11

The Messiah will be a descendant of David / Psalm 132:11 and Jeremiah 23:5,6; 33:15,16 / Luke 1:32,33

The Messiah will be a born of a virgin / Isaiah 7:14 / Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35

The Messiah’s first spiritual work will be in Galilee / Isaiah 9:1-7 / Matthew 4:12-16

The Messiah will make the blind see, the deaf hear, etc. / Isaiah 35:5-6 / Many places. Also see Matthew 11:3-6 and John 11:47

The Messiah will be beaten, mocked, and spat upon / Isaiah 50:6 / Matthew 26:67 and 27:26-31

The “Gospel according to Isaiah” Isaiah 52:13-53:12 / Matthew, Mark, Luke, John

The Messiah will be killed / Isaiah 53:5-9 / Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37-39; Luke 23:46; John 19:30

The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers / Isaiah 53:7 / Matthew 26:62,63 and 27:12-14

The Messiah will be buried with the rich / Isaiah 53:9 / Matthew 27:59,60; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:52,53; John 19:38-42

The Messiah will be crucified with criminals / Isaiah 53:12 / Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32,33

The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem / Micah 5:2 / Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4-7

The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey / Zechariah 9:9 / Matthew 21:1-11

The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silver / Zechariah 11:12,13 / Matthew 26:15 with Matthew 27:3-10

All of these OT books were written hundreds of years before Christ. I believe there are over 200 (maybe it was 300) prophecies in the Bible about the coming Messiah, and every one of them was fulfilled in one man.

I'll add this too just because I love it:
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0-NPPIeeRk)

[Penguin]

I'd wait till I got my 72 virgins, then I'd kill him with a snipe shot from a 1000yds.


72 virgins? Hell, just what I need. I've been given a holy body with holy parts and 72 girls running away screaming scared that I'm gonna hurt 'em.

I'll be down on my knees, begging "I know what I'm doing! I promise!" for all eternity. Sounds like somebody's heaven, but not mine!

[OhU1]

meh, I'll bite on this one:
Old Testament Scriptures That Describe The Coming Messiah

All of these OT books were written hundreds of years before Christ. I believe there are over 200 (maybe it was 300) prophecies in the Bible about the coming Messiah, and every one of them was fulfilled in one man.

I'll add this too just because I love it:
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0-NPPIeeRk)

Those foolish deluded Jews just can't see the obvious!

[KC//CRIMSON]

http://images.smh.com.au/2010/06/16/1606855/jesus1420-420x0.jpg

Best atheist avatar ever? Best atheist avatar ever.