Texas Conservatives Win Curriculum Change

[JohnnyMack]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html

Texas Conservatives Win Curriculum Change
By JAMES C. McKINLEY Jr.
Published: March 12, 2010

AUSTIN, Tex. — After three days of turbulent meetings, the Texas Board of Education on Friday approved a social studies curriculum that will put a conservative stamp on history and economics textbooks, stressing the superiority of American capitalism, questioning the Founding Fathers’ commitment to a purely secular government and presenting Republican political philosophies in a more positive light.

The vote was 10 to 5 along party lines, with all the Republicans on the board voting for it.

The board, whose members are elected, has influence beyond Texas because the state is one of the largest buyers of textbooks. In the digital age, however, that influence has diminished as technological advances have made it possible for publishers to tailor books to individual states.

In recent years, board members have been locked in an ideological battle between a bloc of conservatives who question Darwin’s theory of evolution and believe the Founding Fathers were guided by Christian principles, and a handful of Democrats and moderate Republicans who have fought to preserve the teaching of Darwinism and the separation of church and state.

Since January, Republicans on the board have passed more than 100 amendments to the 120-page curriculum standards affecting history, sociology and economics courses from elementary to high school. The standards were proposed by a panel of teachers.

“We are adding balance,” said Dr. Don McLeroy, the leader of the conservative faction on the board, after the vote. “History has already been skewed. Academia is skewed too far to the left.”

Battles over what to put in science and history books have taken place for years in the 20 states where state boards must adopt textbooks, most notably in California and Texas. But rarely in recent history has a group of conservative board members left such a mark on a social studies curriculum.

Efforts by Hispanic board members to include more Latino figures as role models for the state’s large Hispanic population were consistently defeated, prompting one member, Mary Helen Berlanga, to storm out of a meeting late Thursday night, saying, “They can just pretend this is a white America and Hispanics don’t exist.”

“They are going overboard, they are not experts, they are not historians,” she said. “They are rewriting history, not only of Texas but of the United States and the world.”

The curriculum standards will now be published in a state register, opening them up for 30 days of public comment. A final vote will be taken in May, but given the Republican dominance of the board, it is unlikely that many changes will be made.

The standards, reviewed every decade, serve as a template for textbook publishers, who must come before the board next year with drafts of their books. The board’s makeup will have changed by then because Dr. McLeroy lost in a primary this month to a more moderate Republican, and two others — one Democrat and one conservative Republican — announced they were not seeking re-election.

There are seven members of the conservative bloc on the board, but they are often joined by one of the other three Republicans on crucial votes. There were no historians, sociologists or economists consulted at the meetings, though some members of the conservative bloc held themselves out as experts on certain topics.

The conservative members maintain that they are trying to correct what they see as a liberal bias among the teachers who proposed the curriculum. To that end, they made dozens of minor changes aimed at calling into question, among other things, concepts like the separation of church and state and the secular nature of the American Revolution.

“I reject the notion by the left of a constitutional separation of church and state,” said David Bradley, a conservative from Beaumont who works in real estate. “I have $1,000 for the charity of your choice if you can find it in the Constitution.”

They also included a plank to ensure that students learn about “the conservative resurgence of the 1980s and 1990s, including Phyllis Schlafly, the Contract With America, the Heritage Foundation, the Moral Majority and the National Rifle Association.”

Dr. McLeroy, a dentist by training, pushed through a change to the teaching of the civil rights movement to ensure that students study the violent philosophy of the Black Panthers in addition to the nonviolent approach of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. He also made sure that textbooks would mention the votes in Congress on civil rights legislation, which Republicans supported.

“Republicans need a little credit for that,” he said. “I think it’s going to surprise some students.”

Mr. Bradley won approval for an amendment saying students should study “the unintended consequences” of the Great Society legislation, affirmative action and Title IX legislation. He also won approval for an amendment stressing that Germans and Italians as well as Japanese were interned in the United States during World War II, to counter the idea that the internment of Japanese was motivated by racism.

Other changes seem aimed at tamping down criticism of the right. Conservatives passed one amendment, for instance, requiring that the history of McCarthyism include “how the later release of the Venona papers confirmed suspicions of communist infiltration in U.S. government.” The Venona papers were transcripts of some 3,000 communications between the Soviet Union and its agents in the United States.

Mavis B. Knight, a Democrat from Dallas, introduced an amendment requiring that students study the reasons “the founding fathers protected religious freedom in America by barring the government from promoting or disfavoring any particular religion above all others.”

It was defeated on a party-line vote.

After the vote, Ms. Knight said, “The social conservatives have perverted accurate history to fulfill their own agenda.”

In economics, the revisions add Milton Friedman and Friedrich von Hayek, two champions of free-market economic theory, among the usual list of economists to be studied, like Adam Smith, Karl Marx and John Maynard Keynes. They also replaced the word “capitalism” throughout their texts with the “free-enterprise system.”

“Let’s face it, capitalism does have a negative connotation,” said one conservative member, Terri Leo. “You know, ‘capitalist pig!’ ”

In the field of sociology, another conservative member, Barbara Cargill, won passage of an amendment requiring the teaching of “the importance of personal responsibility for life choices” in a section on teenage suicide, dating violence, sexuality, drug use and eating disorders.

“The topic of sociology tends to blame society for everything,” Ms. Cargill said.

Even the course on world history did not escape the board’s scalpel.

Cynthia Dunbar, a lawyer from Richmond who is a strict constitutionalist and thinks the nation was founded on Christian beliefs, managed to cut Thomas Jefferson from a list of figures whose writings inspired revolutions in the late 18th century and 19th century, replacing him with St. Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin and William Blackstone. (Jefferson is not well liked among conservatives on the board because he coined the term “separation between church and state.”)

“The Enlightenment was not the only philosophy on which these revolutions were based,” Ms. Dunbar said.

My favorite part is the elimnation of Thomas Jefferson as a figure whose writings inspired revolution.

[A Sooner in Texas]

That's our SBOE for ya...setting back education to the Middle Ages. They tried to force publishers to add creationism to science textbooks a few years ago. The SBOE members don't like facts to get in the way.

[Leroy Lizard]

No matter what, someone was bound to be pissed off by the standards.

[LosAngelesSooner]

Libs rewriting history and teaching it to our kids...Cons rewriting history and teaching it to our kids...either one is EFFIN' STUPID. Education should NOT have a political leaning. It should be cut and dried...all about the facts.

And people wonder why we're falling behind the world in education.

Well...there's just ONE MORE reason never to live in Texas again. What a backwards ****hole.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

OK, Sooner history buffs, let's see if you know your history...

who's this?

http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/sanjoaquinsooner/ct.jpg

[ndpruitt03]

Libs rewriting history and teaching it to our kids...Cons rewriting history and teaching it to our kids...either one is EFFIN' STUPID. Education should NOT have a political leaning. It should be cut and dried...all about the facts.

And people wonder why we're falling behind the world in education.

Well...there's just ONE MORE reason never to live in Texas again. What a backwards ****hole.

History always has a political leaning, no matter what country you are in. Most countries just don't really teach history like America does. The thing is our government in the 17 and 1800s started out going away from European style government and going with less of a national government. That changed in the late 1800s and 1900s now we are starting to try and be a European government again. That hasn't worked for Europe.

[Okla-homey]

History always has a political leaning, no matter what country you are in.

Yep. Interesting historical treatises always involve an element of subjectivity.

Objective history, i.e. raw occurences and their dates of occurence, is boring as hell. It's also only a sliver of what students need to understand.

The problem is, historians and their critics often have separate and conflicting agendas. Which is what the current curriculum kerfuffle in texass is all about.

[Leroy Lizard]

You stumped me SJS.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

OK, Sooner history buffs, let's see if you know your history...

who's this?

http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/sanjoaquinsooner/ct.jpg

http://www.library.okstate.edu/oralhistory/wotol/thompson/index.htm

Carolyn Thompson, representing the Norman area in the state legislature in the 80s and 90s. Responsible for laws creating the Oklahoma Museum of Natural History and establishing the policy of getting laws written in gender neutral language.

She succeeded cleta deatherage.

I used to go drinking with her first husband back in the day ...

[sooner59]

Not sure what to say about that article other than it is sickening. I don't know what they are smoking but separation of Church and State was one of the main reasons for starting this country. It all and fine if the government pushes Christianity, but they would lose their minds if the government began to push the Islamic religion. News flash, many of the founding fathers were deists, including Thomas Jefferson, so there is no surprise why they want him stricken from history books. Religion is great, but it shouldn't be supported or denied by government. Politics are necessary but agendas don't belong school.

[ndpruitt03]

You can't make up a history that doesn't have a political agenda. If you tried to give a real objective look at american history you would never get to teach anything outside of what happened in the revolutionary war.

[Okla-homey]

You can't make up a history that doesn't have a political agenda. If you tried to give a real objective look at american history you would never get to teach anything outside of what happened in the revolutionary war.

You couldn't even teach the Revy War. There are squabbles to this day over the real motivations of so-called American patriots.

[GKeeper316]

History always has a political leaning, no matter what country you are in. Most countries just don't really teach history like America does. The thing is our government in the 17 and 1800s started out going away from European style government and going with less of a national government. That changed in the late 1800s and 1900s now we are starting to try and be a European government again. That hasn't worked for Europe.

it was a republican president who did that by the way... lincoln turned a collection of states into a nation.

[soonerinabilene]

the only good thing to come of this is i will never have to worry about my kids being smarter than i am.

[SicEmBaylor]

I'm glad to see conservatives pushing back a bit with text books.

I don't know when the last time some of you were in school, but high school history text books are absolute garbage. If I had kids in school, the first thing I would do is march into the principal's office and purchase their text books. Then I could take them home and start marking **** out with a sharpie.

And high school history teachers are as ignorant as they come. Most of them are dumb *** wrestling coaches who can't spell history much less teach it.

I remember having one go on a rant about McCarthy and the number of innocent people, including celebrities, he brought before his committee. I pointed out that his was a Senate committee focused strictly on Defense and State Department employees while HUAC (the House committee) is what went after the Joe Blows and Celebs. He looked at me and said, "Well, same thing. He was head of both."

I remember another time in 8th grade we had this WONA history quiz, and I never ever got an answer wrong on a history test....ever. Well, the first question asked what was the first large scale battle of the war and I answered, "1st Manassass." Well, the teacher got all excited joking with me that I got my first question wrong and the correct answer was "Bull Run", but I pointed out that it was the same battle and the south typically named their battles after the closest town while the Union often named it after adjacent rivers. She swore to me that I was wrong and stormed out of the room to "consult" with some of the history teachers. Half an hour later she comes back and says, "Well, I guess you were right." :eyeroll: She thought I was wrong because the text book said Bull Run not Manassass. Her education evidently didn't go beyond what was written in that text book.

That's the kind of bull **** you have to contend with.

[ndpruitt03]

Most people don't learn a thing about history in school in the last 10-15 years till they get into college. The things they teach in school now are the same few things over and over again. There's really no way you can fail if you hear the same things over and over again. I didn't learn anything about history till I got to college and even then I learned more on the books I read outside of school.

[LosAngelesSooner]

You can't make up a history that doesn't have a political agenda. If you tried to give a real objective look at american history you would never get to teach anything outside of what happened in the revolutionary war.
I couldn't disagree more. You can show the view of events that happened and in the telling of the WHY things happened, show multiple sides of the arguments. That way you see both sides of major issues. That's how my teachers taught us, but then again, I was fortunate enough to have private schooling.

But riddle me this, Batman...why leave Thomas Jefferson OUT of the curriculum?

[LosAngelesSooner]

I'm glad to see conservatives pushing back a bit with text books.

I don't know when the last time some of you were in school, but high school history text books are absolute garbage. If I had kids in school, the first thing I would do is march into the principal's office and purchase their text books. Then I could take them home and start marking **** out with a sharpie.

And high school history teachers are as ignorant as they come. Most of them are dumb *** wrestling coaches who can't spell history much less teach it.

I remember having one go on a rant about McCarthy and the number of innocent people, including celebrities, he brought before his committee. I pointed out that his was a Senate committee focused strictly on Defense and State Department employees while HUAC (the House committee) is what went after the Joe Blows and Celebs. He looked at me and said, "Well, same thing. He was head of both."

I remember another time in 8th grade we had this WONA history quiz, and I never ever got an answer wrong on a history test....ever. Well, the first question asked what was the first large scale battle of the war and I answered, "1st Manassass." Well, the teacher got all excited joking with me that I got my first question wrong and the correct answer was "Bull Run", but I pointed out that it was the same battle and the south typically named their battles after the closest town while the Union often named it after adjacent rivers. She swore to me that I was wrong and stormed out of the room to "consult" with some of the history teachers. Half an hour later she comes back and says, "Well, I guess you were right." :eyeroll: She thought I was wrong because the text book said Bull Run not Manassass. Her education evidently didn't go beyond what was written in that text book.

That's the kind of bull **** you have to contend with.This coming from the guy who still defends the motivations of the Southern traitorous Rebels during the Civil War. :rolleyes:

Color me unsurprised.

[Leroy Lizard]

But riddle me this, Batman...why leave Thomas Jefferson OUT of the curriculum?

They didn't. Read it more carefully.

[Leroy Lizard]

You can show the view of events that happened and in the telling of the WHY things happened, show multiple sides of the arguments. That way you see both sides of major issues.

The same guy wrote:


This coming from the guy who still defends the motivations of the Southern traitorous Rebels during the Civil War.

Wow, the hypocrisy.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

... She swore to me that I was wrong and stormed out of the room to "consult" with some of the history teachers. Half an hour later she comes back and says, "Well, I guess you were right." :eyeroll: She thought I was wrong because the text book said Bull Run not Manassass. Her education evidently didn't go beyond what was written in that text book.

That's the kind of bull **** you have to contend with.

I agree Sic Em, she handled it poorly. She should have said, "Losers get the gallows and winners write the history books!"

[soonerscuba]

You couldn't even teach the Revy War. There are squabbles to this day over the real motivations of so-called American patriots.Absolutely. I didn't learn about the war debt as a result of the French-Indian War until much later in life. Frankly, I think the British were detached, uninformed, and took a reasonable approach to the colonies but were painted as terrible oppressors by the founders to a degree, but much more so by historians to give America a bit more of a populist upbringing. This country is the luckiest place in the world to have geniuses as founders and especially Washington to temper the executive role in regards to power. Your average 18th century American was either a loyalist or didn't give a **** because for all intensive purposes the colonist lived beyond government control, even under the British.

[Leroy Lizard]

Intents and purposes.


This country is the luckiest place in the world to have geniuses as founders and especially Washington to temper the executive role in regards to power.

The times they are a changin'.

[LosAngelesSooner]

The same guy wrote:



Wow, the hypocrisy.Hardly. Read it again.

[LosAngelesSooner]

They didn't. Read it more carefully.They did. Read it even more carefully.


The Board removed Thomas Jefferson from the Texas curriculum's world history standards on Enlightenment thinking, “replacing him with religious right icon John Calvin (http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/12/texas-education-board-cuts-thomas-jefferson-out-of-its-textbooks/).”

[ndpruitt03]

I couldn't disagree more. You can show the view of events that happened and in the telling of the WHY things happened, show multiple sides of the arguments. That way you see both sides of major issues. That's how my teachers taught us, but then again, I was fortunate enough to have private schooling.

But riddle me this, Batman...why leave Thomas Jefferson OUT of the curriculum?

If you want to really give a complete not biased view you have to show why the other side did what they did. In others make them look good too. You know how long that would take? As someone just posted from a quote by you we would have to argue that the south was just as right as the north in the Civil War. England was right in what they were doing to the Colonies. Every event in history would have to be looked at this way and you would have to take years just to cover one period of history.

[LosAngelesSooner]

My God...a real education. Complete with nuance.

We'd better not do that. If we did, we'd be just like Europe.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Don't push your euro-trash commie pinko edjumacation on me!

[LosAngelesSooner]

Yeah! Let's "Stay American", keep doin' what we've been doin'...and fall even further behind!!!

AMERICA...**** YEAH!!!!

[Scott D]

Somewhere the Theocracy of Kansas is smiling upon the eyes of Texas.

[PDXsooner]

thank god my kids don't live in texas. remind me not to have any historical arguments with someone from texas in the future...it will be like arguing with a brick wall.

[Scott D]

actually, other things I expect out of this.

They weren't slaughtered at the Alamo, it was just a minor setback against the bloodthirsty Mexican Chupacabra Vampires led by General Dracula Santa Ana. It wasn't that the University of Texas waited until the 70s to have black players, it's that they couldn't reach the rigorous academic standards of the University until the 70s.

All livestock evolved from a single longhorn steer, and God built the state of Texas, then he created life and the rest of the universe.

[PDXsooner]

i hear the history books also granted texas the big 12 title in 2008.

[Scott D]

The History will say that the University of Texas won the MNC every year from 1859-2010.

[soonerinabilene]

The History will say that the University of Texas won the MNC every year from 1859-2010.

Alabama is going to be SO pissed.

[Leroy Lizard]

If you want to really give a complete not biased view you have to show why the other side did what they did. In others make them look good too. You know how long that would take? As someone just posted from a quote by you we would have to argue that the south was just as right as the north in the Civil War.

The libs argue that you can form your own conclusion as long as it matches their conclusion. In other words, have an open mind for one side of the argument and a closed mind for the other. Read LAS' two quotes that I posted. The hypocrisy is blatant.

[Leroy Lizard]

Yeah! Let's "Stay American", keep doin' what we've been doin'...and fall even further behind!!!

Yeah, what Texas needs to do is adopt an educational system more like California's. Someday, its financial situation will be as good as California's.

[Scott D]

Alabama is going to be SO pissed.

Broke *** Alabama is going to have to buy their own history books then :D

[Leroy Lizard]

They did. Read it even more carefully.

Here is what you wrote:


But riddle me this, Batman...why leave Thomas Jefferson OUT of the curriculum?

They didn't leave Thomas Jefferson out of the curriculum, which would require striking his name out of all instructional materials and adopting a policy restricting mention of Thomas Jefferson by teachers.

Rather, they struck out mention of his name in the standards (not the curriculum) AND in only one section of the standards.

[MR2-Sooner86]

AMERICA...**** YEAH!!!!

COMING AGAIN TO SAVE THE MUTHA ****IN DAY YEAH!!!

[ndpruitt03]

History education could be worse here. In Russia their books describe Stalin as "a good manager" yeah he managed to kill something like 50 million people.

[Leroy Lizard]

I doubt their books mention anything about Stalin's three biggest personal failings: paranoia, selfishness, and cowardice.

But this just goes to show how difficult it is to be truly neutral when it comes to history. Every important figure had his strengths and weaknesses. We tend to focus on the failings of those we oppose (even inventing some along the way) and play up the strengths of those we like (again, inventing some along the way). No one is immune.

I must admit that uncovering positives from Stalin and Pol Pot is a daunting task.

[LosAngelesSooner]

Yeah, what Texas needs to do is adopt an educational system more like California's. Someday, its financial situation will be as good as California's.

I'd rather live in Cali than Texas every single day. And I mean in the WORST part of Cali vs. the BEST part of Texas. So, yeah...Texas should HOPE it could someday grow up to be Cali.

[LosAngelesSooner]

The libs argue that you can form your own conclusion as long as it matches their conclusion. In other words, have an open mind for one side of the argument and a closed mind for the other. Read LAS' two quotes that I posted. The hypocrisy is blatant.

Ha! The fact that you think they contradict each other only demonstrates your inability to understand what you read. LOL :D You can teach both sides of an argument. But what Sic'em does, with regularity on this one issue, is repeat a lie. A lie that even the Rebs would laugh at.

[LosAngelesSooner]

Here is what you wrote:



They didn't leave Thomas Jefferson out of the curriculum, which would require striking his name out of all instructional materials and adopting a policy restricting mention of Thomas Jefferson by teachers.

Rather, they struck out mention of his name in the standards (not the curriculum) AND in only one section of the standards.

http://students.ou.edu/H/Jacob.M.Higginbotham-1/colbert-lockwood.jpg I accept your apology.

[Leroy Lizard]

I'd rather live in Cali than Texas every single day. And I mean in the WORST part of Cali vs. the BEST part of Texas. So, yeah...Texas should HOPE it could someday grow up to be Cali.

I despise the THOUGHT of Texas, but I would rather live there than California. I moved from California many years ago... best decision I ever made.

[LosAngelesSooner]

I despise the THOUGHT of Texas, but I would rather live there than California. I moved from California many years ago... best decision I ever made.

And I moved from Texas many years ago. Never once looked back. In fact, I even try to book flights that don't stop in Texas.

[Leroy Lizard]

You can teach both sides of an argument. But what Sic'em does, with regularity on this one issue, is repeat a lie. A lie that even the Rebs would laugh at.

Teaching that one side is good and one side is bad is not exactly teaching both sides of the argument, LAS.


I accept your apology.

There's meaning there somewhere. Not sure where.

[unbiasedtruth]

OK, Sooner history buffs, let's see if you know your history...

who's this?

http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/sanjoaquinsooner/ct.jpg

Norman High class of 1975....

[fadada1]

texas would be better served by having their student burn the books. can't be any more ignorant than leaving out the truth about america's free-thinking founders.

[ndpruitt03]

The founders wanted less government and more freedom than most of the government does now.

[LosAngelesSooner]

Teaching that one side is good and one side is bad is not exactly teaching both sides of the argument, LAS.



There's meaning there somewhere. Not sure where.

You STILL don't get it. Maybe someone can essplain it to ya. :D

[soonerhubs]

I plan to teach my children many things including a post-positivistic approach to history. Why the hell aren't parents supplementing their children's education by teaching them to love reading, discovery and research by their own accord anyways?

[Leroy Lizard]

You STILL don't get it. Maybe someone can essplain it to ya.

This is LAS' own brand of avoidance behavior.

[soonerscuba]

The founders wanted less government and more freedom than most of the government does now.I would say about 3/5ths more freedom.

[LosAngelesSooner]

This is LAS' own brand of avoidance behavior.

You know...for somebody who runs around, terrified that everyone is gonna try to pin him down with some kind of game, you sure do run around playing a lot of games. LOL Either way...it's a simple concept that I stated. I could explain it again to ya, but I've used the smallest words I know. I'm gonna leave it to someone with more patience or a smaller vocabulary to bring you up to speed.

[Leroy Lizard]

Either way...it's a simple concept that I stated. I could explain it again to ya, but I've used the smallest words I know.

Uh-huh.

"I could explain it, but you wouldn't understand. That makes me right."

You pull this all the time.

[OklahomaTuba]

Libz have done such a bangup job with the education system thus far, this is some unexpected good news.

[47straight]

Libs rewriting history and teaching it to our kids...Cons rewriting history and teaching it to our kids...either one is EFFIN' STUPID. Education should NOT have a political leaning. It should be cut and dried...all about the facts.



The problem is that history is not science, and every telling of history will have a bias.



Maybe *that's* what they should teach.

[Leroy Lizard]

They do to some extent at the university level. Unfortunately, only tenets held by conservatives are "biased" and need "deconstructing."

[TheHumanAlphabet]

My favorite part is the elimnation of Thomas Jefferson as a figure whose writings inspired revolution.

Why delete an American who was a patriot to add a old monk/priest? Can't figure that out.

[TheUnnamedSooner]

I'd rather live in Cali than Texas every single day. And I mean in the WORST part of Cali vs. the BEST part of Texas. So, yeah...Texas should HOPE it could someday grow up to be Cali.

That's one of the most retarded things I've seen you say. And you've said a lot of retarded things.

Let's talk about the WORST part of Cali - their economy. They were at a point where they couldn't even pay their employees. The housing market has gone to sh*t. Unemployment sucks.

BEST part of Texas - their economy. Slight decline in housing values. 2009 showed an increase in jobs over 2008. Plus the state works off a surplus budget and has something to the effect of $11billion in a "rainy day account".

Looks to me that the "enlightened ones" in California are the ones that need to grow up.

[TheUnnamedSooner]

You are a SOB, LAS. You just made me defend texas. I need to go throw up.

[85Sooner]

I'd rather live in Cali than Texas every single day. And I mean in the WORST part of Cali vs. the BEST part of Texas. So, yeah...Texas should HOPE it could someday grow up to be Cali.

That explains why we are seeing so many Californians moving here.

[TUSooner]

The disturbing thing is that narrow ideology stangles the quest for knowledge and understanding. Pure objectivity may be a myth, but truth exists whether anyone believes in it or not. People must accept the fact that they may be wrong about things. Simply telling people you disagree with to shut up does not foster truth. The antidote to bias is not to constrict speech but to broaden it. I was raised in a "right-wing Christian" environment, and I'm disgusted by its hypocrisy, its paranoia, and its willfull ignorance. It's Christian only in name, because Jesus Christ is not a politician.

[Chuck Bao]

George Washington was gay. Either that, or he just really, really liked some of his aides-de-camp.

I don't suppose the Texas conservatives got around to adding that. ;)

[TUSooner]

George Washington was gay. Either that, or he just really, really liked some of his aides-de-camp.

I don't suppose the Texas conservatives got around to adding that. ;)

Gay people think everybody famous was gay, and Black people think everybody famous was African. :rolleyes: :D

[OklahomaTuba]

The disturbing thing is that narrow ideology stangles the quest for knowledge and understanding.
Agreed.

And given the liberal ideology and bias our government education system has forced down our children's throats for decades now, is it any wonder why our government schools are so near collapse???

While introducing common sense back into history books won't solve the damage done to our kids and this country from substandard "progressive" education, it's a step in the right direction in correcting the mistakes of liberalism that have ruined generations of American children, and helped in determining our economic demise by making us less competitive in this world.

[C&CDean]

I actually read through the changes, and I'm not really sure why all the outrage from our left-leaning comrades on here. It's not like they're trying to re-write history. They're just wanting to even the playing field a little - and anyone who is my age has seen the playing field go left over the years to the point that it needs a little leveling out. I mean c'mon, Black Panthers were violent criminals. Why is it bad to teach kids that? And balancing out Darwin with a little faith ain't a bad thing.

[Boarder]

I plan to teach my children many things including a post-positivistic approach to history. Why the hell aren't parents supplementing their children's education by teaching them to love reading, discovery and research by their own accord anyways?
Some do.

[OklahomaTuba]

I remember seeing a special on fox showing a history book used in a Detriot public high school.

The teacher had to read it to the class (10 or 11 grade I believe), as only half the class could actually read (another victory for progressive education), but nevertheless, it went on to trash free market capitalism and also portrayed groups like the black panthers and other left-wing terror organizations in a positive light.

They also spent a lot of time on what global warming means to their eventual victim hood. (woman and minorities are always hardest hit, don't you know).

Pretty disgusting crap, no wonder places like Detroit are urbane wastelands. With liberal propaganda like that being forced fed on them like that, those kids have no hope.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

They do to some extent at the university level. Unfortunately, only tenets held by conservatives are "biased" and need "deconstructing."They're antiquated, and don't work today.

[JohnnyMack]

The disturbing thing is that narrow ideology stangles the quest for knowledge and understanding. Pure objectivity may be a myth, but truth exists whether anyone believes in it or not. People must accept the fact that they may be wrong about things. Simply telling people you disagree with to shut up does not foster truth. The antidote to bias is not to constrict speech but to broaden it. I was raised in a "right-wing Christian" environment, and I'm disgusted by its hypocrisy, its paranoia, and its willfull ignorance. It's Christian only in name, because Jesus Christ is not a politician.

That was really why I posted this article in the first place. It didn't seem like an effort at opening up the subject of history, rather it felt like the same type of political stunt the Right always ****s its collective pants over when the Left does it. Just wanted to acknowledge the hypocrisy of the whole situation.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

That was really why I posted this article in the first place. It didn't seem like an effort at opening up the subject of history, rather it felt like the same type of political stunt the Right always ****s its collective pants over when the Left does it. Just wanted to acknowledge the hypocrisy of the whole situation.Maybe you haven't noticed so much, but the left has controlled education at all levels for quite a while, and have really effed it up, as pointed out by others, above. Texas recently said "stop distorting, you guys. Let's re-introduce some facts into the curriculum, that have been omitted or altered". long overdue.

[OklahomaTuba]

Let's re-introduce some facts into the curriculum, that have been omitted or altered".
Watch it now, you might start getting the idear that progressives actually want to educate kids instead indoctrinating them, handing more power to teachers unions, spending more money on "programs", etc.

They've done such a bangup job turning our schools into screwels, I know I can't wait to see what the progressives do to our healthcare system once they take that over as well.

[Fraggle145]

Has anyone ever wondered why the people that get paid to sit around and be smart, consistently lean to the left?

[Harry Beanbag]

How do you get paid for sitting around and being smart? Are they hiring? I'd be interested.

[OklahomaTuba]

Has anyone ever wondered why the people that get paid to sit consistently lean to the left?

Fixed it for you.

[PDXsooner]

I mean c'mon, Black Panthers were violent criminals. Why is it bad to teach kids that? And balancing out Darwin with a little faith ain't a bad thing.

let me get this straight - you want to stick strictly to the facts when it comes to the black panthers. and let's face it, they were violent criminals, i agree.

yet you want to "balance" scientific facts with some warm and fuzzy emotional stuff like "faith"? wow, that is hypocritical.

interesting how you pick and choose when to be pragmatic and concrete and when you let emotions and intangibles come into play in your arguments.

[PDXsooner]

Has anyone ever wondered why the people that get paid to sit around and be smart, consistently lean to the left?

people who read, continue to do/read research, are open to new ideas and actually engaging in active thought generally lean to the left.

[Fraggle145]

How do you get paid for sitting around and being smart? Are they hiring? I'd be interested.

You have to pile it high and deep.

[Fraggle145]

people who read, continue to do/read research, are open to new ideas and actually engaging in active thought generally lean to the left.

We are saying the same thing...

[Harry Beanbag]

You have to pile it high and deep.

That's what I figured.

[Harry Beanbag]

We are saying the same thing...

Exactly, you're both spouting bull****.

[Fraggle145]

Exactly, you're both spouting bull****.

If it makes you feel better I thought I said it better.

[Harry Beanbag]

If it makes you feel better I thought I said it better.

You did, I just wanted to make sure it was clear for all the right leaning neanderthals. :)

[OklahomaTuba]

people who read, continue to do/read research, are open to new ideas and actually engaging in active thought generally lean to the left.Maybe in the "academic" world, where discrimination, bigotry and intolerance of religious and ideological beliefs are out of control, but in the Real World, where most of the research, ideas and innovation originate from, that isn't the case at all.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Maybe in the "academic" world, where discrimination, bigotry and intolerance of religious and ideological beliefs are out of control, but in the Real World, where most of the research, ideas and innovation originate from, that isn't the case at all.a Good Day for you!

[C&CDean]

let me get this straight - you want to stick strictly to the facts when it comes to the black panthers. and let's face it, they were violent criminals, i agree.

yet you want to "balance" scientific facts with some warm and fuzzy emotional stuff like "faith"? wow, that is hypocritical.

interesting how you pick and choose when to be pragmatic and concrete and when you let emotions and intangibles come into play in your arguments.

Time out Mr. Tye Dye.

The BPs were violent POS. Fact. It's history.

Darwin's TOE is full of holes - as is the argument for faith. My choice would be to leave them both outta the text books - or at least cover Darwin's crapola in terms of simple evolution of creatures that say got stuck on an island and over the years evolved to better survive in their surroundings. If you're gonna teach them their great, great, great, great X 100K grandaddy was a ****ing monkey, then why is it so implausible to teach them about the theory/story of creation and faith? I mean if we're gonna teach fairy tales, let's be fair about it.

[PDXsooner]

why is it so implausible to teach them about the theory/story of creation and faith?

i don't know, perhaps separation of church and state?

[PDXsooner]

Time out Mr. Tye Dye.



i drove by a tie-dye stand earlier today...honest truth. next time i do i'll be sure to buy one, strip naked except for the shirt, climb a tree, give a nice big hug, take a picture, and send it to you...;)

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Church does not equal theological explanations of the creation of man.

[JohnnyMack]

i drove by a tie-dye stand earlier today...honest truth. next time i do i'll be sure to buy one, strip naked except for the shirt, climb a tree, give a nice big hug, take a picture, and send it to you...;)

http://turbid.com/images/goofy/do_not_want.jpg

[C&CDean]

Ah, the all-encompassing separation argument huh? Bull****. It's OK to teach them Darwin's fairy tales but not the "fairy tales" this country was founded on?

I'd be with you 100% if I said "teach them about the pope, or teach them about the book of mormon, or teach them about snake handling." I believe we should teach them about the beliefs of all religions. Damn near everything that goes on in the world is connected to religion one way or the other. Especially in current times. The whole terrorist/oil/middle east shindig is based on religious beliefs and the whackos who subscribe to them. It's ****ing HISTORY man. It's as real as my hard dick. To me, keeping it out of school is nothing short of censorship. You know, the thing you leftfreakies hate the most?

[OklahomaTuba]

Most libz are perfectly ok with censoring religion, and prefer it actually because most of them are bigots like that.

But when it comes to teaching elementary kids about gay sex, global warming or the positives of communism and marxism, that's ok.

Government screwels can't teach your kids how to read, write or add anymore, but they will happily teach your kids how to safely sodomize each other and be carbon neutral while doing it.

[PDXsooner]

Ah, the all-encompassing separation argument huh? Bull****. It's OK to teach them Darwin's fairy tales but not the "fairy tales" this country was founded on?

I'd be with you 100% if I said "teach them about the pope, or teach them about the book of mormon, or teach them about snake handling." I believe we should teach them about the beliefs of all religions. Damn near everything that goes on in the world is connected to religion one way or the other. Especially in current times. The whole terrorist/oil/middle east shindig is based on religious beliefs and the whackos who subscribe to them. It's ****ing HISTORY man. It's as real as my hard dick. To me, keeping it out of school is nothing short of censorship. You know, the thing you leftfreakies hate the most?

do you not believe in evolution? really? i'm not saying there aren't some unexplained pieces...but do you not believe that it's true to some extent?

[PDXsooner]

Most libz are perfectly ok with censoring religion, and prefer it actually because most of them are bigots like that.

But when it comes to teaching elementary kids about gay sex, global warming or the positives of communism and marxism, that's ok.

WRONG. most libs support not only teaching gay sex, but encouraging it. preferably in school, under a kwanza tree.

[PDXsooner]

Most libz are perfectly ok with censoring religion, and prefer it actually because most of them are bigots like that.

.

most? we all are. we'll band together and suck the blood of your children as well. then we'll steal your christmas tree and stab your family with it. and when you are in a deep, peaceful slumber we'll come into your grandmother's house and suck out her soul to present it at the feet of our lord satan.

[OklahomaTuba]

we'll band together and suck the blood of your children as well.So now we're talking about Obamacare???? Trying to change the subject I see..

[Tulsa_Fireman]

do you not believe in evolution? really? i'm not saying there aren't some unexplained pieces...but do you not believe that it's true to some extent?

Am I the only person on this board that thinks both concepts are not exclusive of one another?

That evolution, the rising of mankind as explained in the scripture, was God's way of explaining His hand in the creation to a bunch of knuckle dragging dirt farmers?

Okay, boys. Here's how it happened. I started it real simple, through the joining of certain amino acids which in turn came together with My special touch to create this really funky single celled organism. Those I brought together...

Huh? PRAISE BE TO GOD!

Screw it. I CREATED THE WORLD IN SIX DAYS. DRANK A COLD ONE AND TOOK A NAP ON THE SEVENTH. SO SAYETH ME. WORD.

And so it was written.

[Collier11]

do you not believe in evolution? really? i'm not saying there aren't some unexplained pieces...but do you not believe that it's true to some extent?

ill answer that one for Dean :D

IMO as a Christian, evolution is a factor of Gods plan. I believe in evolution but I dont think it is independent of what God had planned for this world

[PDXsooner]

Am I the only person on this board that thinks both concepts are not exclusive of one another?
.

I understand how both concepts can go together, but calling darwin's theories "fairy tales" suggest a more extreme position, no?

[Collier11]

I think he was referencing the ways that scientists and non believers just shove aside The Bible and Christianity and God as a fairy tale as opposed to Darwins beliefs

[PDXsooner]

Trying to change the subject I see..

is there ever really a subject with you? i mean, really?

[PDXsooner]

I think he was referencing the ways that scientists and non believers just shove aside The Bible and Christianity and God as a fairy tale as opposed to Darwins beliefs

hmmmmmmm

[Fraggle145]

Jeez, people. How many times to I have to say it...

EVOLUTION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW LIFE WAS CREATED.

It only has to do with what happened after life had started. So once the nucleic acids were formed, there was selection for those nucleic acid combinations that could make copies of themselves, etc, etc, etc...

If you want to blame a science for creation, blame physics.

[JohnnyMack]

ill answer that one for Dean :D

IMO as a Christian, evolution is a factor of Gods plan. I believe in evolution but I dont think it is independent of what God had planned for this world

I'm not trying to be a dick here, but if we discover evidence of life (no matter how simple it may be) will that be part of Gods plan? Cause that's pretty convenient. And if **** ever ends up like this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_P8X7MrBwq8w/Sn-5Kby1jyI/AAAAAAAAABU/-9rCjF9I4tM/s320/IndependenceDayMovieLow.JPG

Will you keep up with your spin?

[Collier11]

How is that spin? The way I view things is that God created life and all aspects of life. Now, how they evolve and alter throughout time is a factor of those scientific processes, I dont think God is sitting there with a magic want altering the course of evolution.

[C&CDean]

I understand how both concepts can go together, but calling darwin's theories "fairy tales" suggest a more extreme position, no?

Jump off a cliff much?

Much of what Darwin, and other scientists have studied/discovered about evolution is spot on in my opinion. Much of it is lacking. And by lacking I mean there's no real evidence to prove it is true.

Much of what I've read in the Bible is spot on in my opinion. Much of it is lacking. And by lacking I mean there's no real evidence to prove it is true.

My main true belief is that none of us has a ****ing clue about any of it. You choose to be a Godless heathen and hang your hat on science. I choose to believe in God. I believe evolution (not all theories but the ones that can be completely proven) are real and I also believe they are simply a part of God's plan. He's smart like that. I mean why in the hell would those salamanders who live their entire life in caves need eyes? So, after a couple thousand brazillion years, viola!, no eyes. Pretty cool.

[JLEW1818]

Ok, I believe in death, destruction, chaos, filth, and greed!

[C&CDean]

I'm not trying to be a dick here, but if we discover evidence of life (no matter how simple it may be) will that be part of Gods plan? Cause that's pretty convenient. And if **** ever ends up like this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_P8X7MrBwq8w/Sn-5Kby1jyI/AAAAAAAAABU/-9rCjF9I4tM/s320/IndependenceDayMovieLow.JPG

Will you keep up with your spin?

Dude, if it ends up like that then we're all ****ed, so what's the problem?

[Collier11]

and beer

[Fraggle145]

I think he was referencing the ways that scientists and non believers just shove aside The Bible and Christianity and God as a fairy tale as opposed to Darwins beliefs

They are facts. They have now been modified about 800 times over. Did he have some of it wrong in the beginning? yes. Do we likely have some of it wrong now? yes.

Does life evolve through natural selection, adaptive radiation, mutation, and genetic drift? Undoubtedly. That is the fact part. People have been trying to disprove it since it was theorized and noone has succeeded yet.

And as one of the said bigots, I have said that I cant disprove god (and yeah i went through the whole angry atheist phase, I'm over it now) I just think it is highly unlikely.

If we are going to teach religion in schools I have no problem with it so long as it is every one of em and teach them as just that religion. I wouldnt want them taught as science. There is the rub. They dont have disprovable theories and rely on faith. Its fine and dandy if you believe in them, they just dont fit into the scientific method.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

And if we find evidence of some wacky shiite like alternate dimensions or other planes of reality where dark matter, et cetera can be measured and observed, and through said discovery find explanation for forms of paranormal phenomena (theological or not), will you abandon your position?

Is that all you lack, JM? Evidence?

[JLEW1818]

don't teach religions in public schools

i loved what my school did back in the day. after morning announcements, 1 minute time to yourself, to do as you wish.


i usually wasn't at school yet tho

[C&CDean]

They are facts. They have now been modified about 800 times over. Did he have some of it wrong in the beginning? yes. Do we likely have some of it wrong now? yes.

Does life evolve through natural selection, adaptive radiation, mutation, and genetic drift? Undoubtedly. That is the fact part. People have been trying to disprove it since it was theorized and noone has succeeded yet.

And as one of the said bigots, I have said that I cant disprove god (and yeah i went through the whole angry atheist phase, I'm over it now) I just think it is highly unlikely.

If we are going to teach religion in schools I have no problem with it so long as it is every one of em and teach them as just that religion. I wouldnt want them taught as science. There is the rub. They dont have disprovable theories and rely on faith. Its fine and dandy if you believe in them, they just dont fit into the scientific method.

Well just don't tell me my ancestors slid on their bellies and it's all good.

[Collier11]

You missed my point, I wasnt saying some of evolution isnt true, I was just commenting on why he said what he said.

[JLEW1818]

the big bang noise, was god creating the earth. he told me.

[OklahomaTuba]

There is the rub. They dont have disprovable theories and rely on faith. Its fine and dandy if you believe in them, they just dont fit into the scientific method.Kinda like Global Warming, er, I mean Mike's Nature Trick?

[Fraggle145]

Well just don't tell me my ancestors slid on their bellies and it's all good.

They swam first. ;)

[JLEW1818]

i pray to mecca

[PDXsooner]

My main true belief is that none of us has a ****ing clue about any of it. You choose to be a Godless heathen and hang your hat on science. .

interesting and ironic. we're both agnostics! awesome! (P.S. - agnostics are not godless)

[ndpruitt03]

There has to be some level of faith even in science. How exactly does a cell or whatever the hell we came from go from being nothing to suddenly being a life form of some sort? I don't see how evolution and the bible really conflict with each other. Just because the Bible summarized it. And the translation to days came from the word for eras when it was translated. A lot of the bible was probably lost in translation compared to what it was originally

[Scott D]

It was originally stolen from the Library of Alexandria in the first place nick.

[Fraggle145]

There has to be some level of faith even in science. How exactly does a cell or whatever the hell we came from go from being nothing to suddenly being a life form of some sort? I don't see how evolution and the bible really conflict with each other. Just because the Bible summarized it. And the translation to days came from the word for eras when it was translated. A lot of the bible was probably lost in translation compared to what it was originally

There have been experiments showing that it is possible to put together proteins or nucleic acids from a guestimate of the elements of the primordial soup and energy.

[sooner59]

When did agnostics and deists become become atheists? I would think agnostics and deists would be offended by that just the same as a Christian. Some people need to look that word up before throwing "atheist" around. That being said. I believe in God and I try to indoctrinate many Christian morals/values in my everyday life because they seem like a great set to live by. I wouldn't be referred to as a true Christian because I don't believe everything in the Bible word for word. And I only occasionally attend Church. When I do it is because it makes my parents happy. Religion is more of a personal thing to me. I tend to identify with some agnostic and deist ideals, however I don't view myself as 100% anything really. That doesn't make me a Godless heathen or anything. I get along with most people and think I could be generally referred to as a good person.....at least I hope I could. I'll try hard to be regardless. If someone calls your belief wrong, you have the right to stick to your guns whether you are a hardcore believer or someone who believes in nothing, and you can stick up for what you truly believe, but it doesn't mean either side is wrong or right. It means you "believe" different things. I think some of you just argue for the sake of arguing.

[Half a Hundred]

There has to be some level of faith even in science. How exactly does a cell or whatever the hell we came from go from being nothing to suddenly being a life form of some sort?

"I don't know yet" is a perfectly legitimate answer.

[Fraggle145]

There have been experiments showing that it is possible to put together proteins or nucleic acids from a guestimate of the elements of the primordial soup and energy.

Here is what I am talking about...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment

[TheHumanAlphabet]

How is that spin? The way I view things is that God created life and all aspects of life. Now, how they evolve and alter throughout time is a factor of those scientific processes, I dont think God is sitting there with a magic want altering the course of evolution.

The existence of life - however and whatever it is in the universe will only strengthen my faith in God as he (in a non-gender neutral way - it doesn't sound right) would have the great forthought to allow the conditions of life to exist in different places in the universe.

I, obviously, do not subscribe to the literal interpretation of the Bible, but a more liberal interpretation.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Has anyone ever wondered why the people that get paid to sit around and be smart, consistently lean to the left?

Arrogance - check
Condescencion - check
Sense of superiority - check

Must be a * fan.

[Leroy Lizard]

Do all threads merge to the same topic?

[SicEmBaylor]

How do you get paid for sitting around and being smart? Are they hiring? I'd be interested.

Yes, it's called a policy think tank. And, yes, they hire.

[Fraggle145]

Arrogance - check
Condescencion - check
Sense of superiority - check

Must be a * fan.

Heh.

:gary:

[Half a Hundred]

Yes, it's called a policy think tank. And, yes, they hire.

And yes, they are possibly the most worthless institutions created in this fine nation of ours. Including lobbying groups.

[Scott D]

And yes, they are possibly the most worthless institutions created in this fine nation of ours. Including lobbying groups.

I'm pretty sure that the federal legislative branch still exists.

[SicEmBaylor]

And yes, they are possibly the most worthless institutions created in this fine nation of ours. Including lobbying groups.

I disagree on both counts.

[TopDawg]

That was really why I posted this article in the first place. It didn't seem like an effort at opening up the subject of history, rather it felt like the same type of political stunt the Right always ****s its collective pants over when the Left does it. Just wanted to acknowledge the hypocrisy of the whole situation.

Amen.

Conservatives whined for years about the "liberal media" because it wasn't representing the news in a fair manner. So rather than creating a news station that covers the news in a fair manner, they create their own brand of conservative media and help push news coverage even further down the toilet.

They weren't mad because the news was presented in a biased manner, they were mad because the news wasn't presented the way they wanted to hear it.

The same sort of thing plays out in Congress all the time. When the Republicans controlled the hill, Democrats cried out for bi-partisanship and Republicans scoffed at the idea. Now that Democrats are in power on the hill, they are no longer interested in bi-partisanship and Republicans have finally taken a liking to the idea.

The amazing thing to me is not that it happens, but that so many people only complain when the other guys do it. Of course, that shouldn't surprise me because that's the same type of hypocrisy mentioned above.

[JohnnyMack]

Amen.

Conservatives whined for years about the "liberal media" because it wasn't representing the news in a fair manner. So rather than creating a news station that covers the news in a fair manner, they create their own brand of conservative media and help push news coverage even further down the toilet.

They weren't mad because the news was presented in a biased manner, they were mad because the news wasn't presented the way they wanted to hear it.

The same sort of thing plays out in Congress all the time. When the Republicans controlled the hill, Democrats cried out for bi-partisanship and Republicans scoffed at the idea. Now that Democrats are in power on the hill, they are no longer interested in bi-partisanship and Republicans have finally taken a liking to the idea.

The amazing thing to me is not that it happens, but that so many people only complain when the other guys do it. Of course, that shouldn't surprise me because that's the same type of hypocrisy mentioned above.

I seriously sometimes go back and forth between Fox News and MSNBC and then I feel like I'm starting to get an idea of what's actually going on.

That and this site: http://www.realclearpolitics.com

[Leroy Lizard]

Conservatives whined for years about the "liberal media" because it wasn't representing the news in a fair manner. So rather than creating a news station that covers the news in a fair manner, they create their own brand of conservative media and help push news coverage even further down the toilet.


To liberals, fair manner = hard left.

[JohnnyMack]

To liberals, fair manner = hard left.

To neo-cons, fair manner = hard right.

Wwwhhhhhheee!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Crucifax Autumn]

You guys realize that both extremes are fully retarded and that there are both liberal AND conservative think tanks right? And like the extremes, much of the shat that comes from the think tanks is either totally stupid, totally one-sided, or in most cases BOTH. And let's not forget they are generally lying on purpose.

[TopDawg]

To neo-cons, fair manner = hard right.

Wwwhhhhhheee!!!!!!!!!!!!

And, to get at the heart of what started the whole "liberal media" uproar...

To neo-cons, moderate = flaming liberal.

(And, yes, the same is true of hard-left liberals. They think moderate = neo-con.)

[Leroy Lizard]

To summarize, everyone always considers the favorite news source of the opposition an extremist view. I look at Fox News as no more biased than CNN or NBC. They just lie on the other side of the spectrum and serve as a counterbalance to the traditional left-wing media.

[Scott D]

if I want information from Fox I'll get it from Doug Luzader or Neil Cavuto. If I want crackpot entertainment I'll watch anyone else that is on a national level.

[TopDawg]

To summarize, everyone always considers the favorite news source of the opposition an extremist view. I look at Fox News as no more biased than CNN or NBC. They just lie on the other side of the spectrum and serve as a counterbalance to the traditional left-wing media.

The problem, however, is when someone thinks that CNN or NBC is to the left as FoxNews is to the right.

MSNBC may be to the left what FoxNews is to the right, but CNN and NBC are much more moderate than most conservatives care to admit.

All of the major stations and reporters/anchors have examples of partisan behavior and things that, as journalists or a network, they surely regret. But as far as intentionally and continually supporting one side while attacking the other, nobody compared to FoxNews until MSNBC decided to take on that role.

[Okla-homey]

Have you people seen the textbook edits? :eek:

Who knew the Pilgrims landed in Dallas and Texas won the Civil War? They even renamed the sea to their SE the "Gulf of Texas."

[Leroy Lizard]

MSNBC may be to the left what FoxNews is to the right, but CNN and NBC are much more moderate than most conservatives care to admit.

Liberals always say this about the major networks. To them, Dan Rather is a moderate who gives both sides of the political spectrum the same fair treatment.

Sorry, but I don't let liberals define for me what constitutes fair treatment.

[Collier11]

Fox is so conservative and mean but the others are really fair and balanced, pffttt!

[SicEmBaylor]

The editorial commentary on Fox News is decidedly neocon (I say neocon to differentiate it from real/true conservatism) and right-wing. HOWEVER, their straight up news is truly the most balanced you'll find on any new network day in and day out.

CNN actually isn't bad at all. In fact, I admire the fact they've tried to stay away from the editorial "news show" and just air the news straight-up.

MSNBC is useless. The only good thing about MSNBC is that Pat Buchanan appears from time to time.

[soonerloyal]

Just another reason of many to hate texas.

[GKeeper316]

and because the state of texas is the largest consumer of textbooks in the nation, we all get to learn what texas wants us to.

[Leroy Lizard]

and because the state of texas is the largest consumer of textbooks in the nation, we all get to learn what texas wants us to.

I hate to say it, but I'm going to side with Texas on this one. Not so much for their standards per se, but their right to define their own standards. I may hate its football teams, but I admire Texas' willingness so far to stand up against the feds.

So far.

[TopDawg]

Liberals always say this about the major networks. To them, Dan Rather is a moderate who gives both sides of the political spectrum the same fair treatment.

Sorry, but I don't let liberals define for me what constitutes fair treatment.

And conservatives always say "The mean ol media is out to get us." And, like you, I won't let conservatives define for me what constitutes fair treatment. No station is going to be perfectly fair, but which station do you think gives MORE fair treatment? Fox News or CNN?

[Leroy Lizard]

And conservatives always say "The mean ol media is out to get us." And, like you, I won't let conservatives define for me what constitutes fair treatment.

Fine. I never said you had to. Just don't complain about Fox News' political slant.


No station is going to be perfectly fair, but which station do you think gives MORE fair treatment? Fox News or CNN?

They are different sides of the same coin. One is liberal; the other is conservative. CNN only looks fair to you because it casts the news that you find comfortable.

I love how liberals complain that a news network out there has the audacity to present the news according to a particular viewpoint... when it's a conservative viewpoint.

[TopDawg]

They are different sides of the same coin. One is liberal; the other is conservative. CNN only looks fair to you because it casts the news that you find comfortable.

Of course you realize you're evaluating FOX the same way. It appears, based on your response, that you think CNN is as liberally-minded as Fox is conservatively-minded. Is that correct?


I love how liberals complain that a news network out there has the audacity to present the news according to a particular viewpoint... when it's a conservative viewpoint.

You say that as if conservatives don't do the same thing.

[JohnnyMack]

Using a network like FOX or MSNBC as your sole source of news is, well, insane. It's as ridiculously partisan as being a member of the Democrat or Republican party.

[Leroy Lizard]

Of course you realize you're evaluating FOX the same way. It appears, based on your response, that you think CNN is as liberally-minded as Fox is conservatively-minded. Is that correct?

I'm not going to say that their biases are equal because you can't measure bias that precisely. (In other words, I see where you're going and I'm not going there.)

[Scott D]

holy ****, we found an argument that leroy won't touch.

[GottaHavePride]

Um, I think the most balanced news broadcasts are on BBC. They don't have a dog in the fight, so to speak.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

I always found the Iraqi Ministry of Information enlightening myself.

[Leroy Lizard]

holy ****, we found an argument that leroy won't touch.

I do this all the time. Ask LAS.

[Leroy Lizard]

Um, I think the most balanced news broadcasts are on BBC. They don't have a dog in the fight, so to speak.

Not so sure about that.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-411846/We-biased-admit-stars-BBC-News.html

They are essentially the PBS of Britain.

[Leroy Lizard]

I always found the Iraqi Ministry of Information enlightening myself.

And Dan Rather.

[Scott D]

I do this all the time. Ask LAS.

if it involves heavy participation from LAS, Tuba, or william favor..it's not an argument it's a limp wristed internet slap fight.

[I Am Right]

Texas Kids win!

[Scott D]

win what? the front seat on the short bus to the Special Olympics?

[Leroy Lizard]

win what? the front seat on the short bus to the Special Olympics?

I live in AZ. The day our economy can do as well as Texas' is the day I will criticize their educational system.

[Collier11]

Of course you realize you're evaluating FOX the same way. It appears, based on your response, that you think CNN is as liberally-minded as Fox is conservatively-minded. Is that correct?



You say that as if conservatives don't do the same thing.

Cnn is a little left but somewhat fair, Fox is right, MSNBC bases their entire programming off of slamming the right...that really does them well