Should a Libertarian be pro-abortion or anti-abortion?

[tommieharris91]

Abortion harms the autonomy of the child in the womb, but any legislation banning the procedure infringes on the autonomy of the mother and also results in more government.

Discuss.

[SoonerProphet]

science and the viability of life in the womb. i personally could not go through with it but that is just me.

[C&CDean]

Humans should be against most abortions, and I'm assuming libertarians are human?

[Harry Beanbag]

I don't look to my political party for answers to questions of morality.

[JohnnyMack]

I wish I lived in a world where abortion wasn't necessary, unfortunately I don't.

[47straight]

Assuming libertarians only allow government intervention to prevent someone from harming another person, I think it just boils down to whether the libertarian thinks the unborn as a person or not. Which is how I think most other people of good conscience choose a side on the issue.

[Veritas]

That's an easy one. It's a state's rights issue. Feds shouldn't be involved.

[Harry Beanbag]

This is from the Libertarian Party platform:



1.4 Abortion
Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.


Which means to me that they can be legal, but the government should not be paying for them.

[tommieharris91]

NM Harry posted what I was going to post.

[JohnnyMack]

Which means to me that they can be legal, but the government should not be paying for them.

If a homeless woman is beaten and gang raped by a roving band of thugs, should the government allow an abortion to take place?

[C&CDean]

If my balls were on your chin, where would my dick be?

[Harry Beanbag]

If a homeless woman is beaten and gang raped by a roving band of thugs, should the government allow an abortion to take place?

Should the government allow one? What do you mean?

[sooner ngintunr]

That's an easy one. It's a state's rights issue. Feds shouldn't be involved.

The states shouldn't be involved either.



:pop:

[JohnnyMack]

Should the government allow one? What do you mean?

Should the procedure in that case be paid for by Medicaid and/or the Federally subsidized state run healthcare plan?

[JohnnyMack]

Should the government allow one? What do you mean?

Sorry, shouldn't have used the word allow.

[Harry Beanbag]

Should the procedure in that case be paid for by Medicaid and/or the Federally subsidized state run healthcare plan?

No.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Politically they should be pro-choice and against any federal funding. Morally and personally they should base their views on their own morality system, religion, life experience, and when they think life begins.

[C&CDean]

Should the procedure in that case be paid for by Medicaid and/or the Federally subsidized state run healthcare plan?

No, it should be a freebie given out by the murderous **********s who perform abortions on demand for a living. Besides, your scenario is about as likely as me wearing a thong. It could happen, but it probably won't.

[JohnnyMack]

No, it should be a freebie given out by the murderous **********s who perform abortions on demand for a living. Besides, your scenario is about as likely as me wearing a thong. It could happen, but it probably won't.

I have pictures of you wearing a thong at the Bedlam tailgate.

[Harry Beanbag]

Thanks for sending those to me by the way.

[sooner ngintunr]

Politically they should be pro-choice and against any federal funding. Morally and personally they should base their views on their own morality system, religion, life experience, and when they think life begins.

So you are saying that certain people would personally be Pro-life while being politically Pro-choice?

political hack/// does not compute, does not compute/// political hack

You silly fence straddler.:D :P

[NormanPride]

Why do you think that rape-conception is unlikely, Dean?

[C&CDean]

I have pictures of you wearing a thong at the OU-OSU tailgate.

And I'm a sexy bitch ain't I?

[sooner59]

In that case, it would be in the "government's" best interest for the woman to carry it to term and give it up for adoption. Otherwise they are either paying for the abortion or paying the mother to take care of the child once it is born (as long as she realizes that she can get money for that).

On the other hand, I have no problem with abortion on cases of rape, because it was not the woman fault. It was neither planned, nor an accident that she put herself in the position to make. She was the victim of a horrific violent event that will haunt her forever and should not be forced to have the child of a "monster" that would do something like that.

Although I am left of center, I only fully support abortion in cases of rape and incest. Other reasons.....not so much. A child give up for adoption can be given a wonderful life. No need to screw up and decide you want a "mulligan".

[C&CDean]

Why do you think that rape-conception is unlikely, Dean?

Crazed bands of thugs going out raping probably ain't gonna hit a homeless bag lady down under the bridge. Besides, try googling it or something. I'd bet you're gonna have a hard time finding one scenario even remotely close to JMs hypothetical scene - especially one where the raping results in a pregnancy.

[Crucifax Autumn]

I have pictures of you wearing a thong at the OU-OSU tailgate.

Wearing it on his head after a few too many pulls on the OVJ jar dosn't count.

[Crucifax Autumn]

If a homeless woman is beaten and gang raped by a roving band of thugs, should the government allow an abortion to take place?

Who the hell would wanna stick their wang in a black from the dirt, Thunderbird smelling, toothless broad sitting behind the bus stop screaming things to passers by about how Satan stole her toothbrush anyway?

:eek:

[sooner59]

Crazed bands of thugs going out raping probably ain't gonna hit a homeless bag lady down under the bridge. Besides, try googling it or something. I'd bet you're gonna have a hard time finding one scenario even remotely close to JMs hypothetical scene - especially one where the raping results in a pregnancy.

The scenario is the basically the same if a non-homeless destitutely poor woman is raped by a one man. If she is raped by one man and unable to afford an abortion, how would she be able to afford caring for the child? Government money.

[NormanPride]

Crazed bands of thugs going out raping probably ain't gonna hit a homeless bag lady down under the bridge. Besides, try googling it or something. I'd bet you're gonna have a hard time finding one scenario even remotely close to JMs hypothetical scene - especially one where the raping results in a pregnancy.

That's certainly true, but it doesn't have to be a roaming gang of thugs or a homeless girl for the pregnancy to come from rape.

For the most part, I don't believe it's any of my business what goes on with a woman's body, unless I've got a stake in the kid.

[C&CDean]

The scenario is the basically the same if a non-homeless destitutely poor woman is raped by a one man. If she is raped by one man and unable to afford an abortion, how would she be able to afford caring for the child? Government money.

Yeah, so? What if that child grows up to be the next POTUS? Or an engineer? Or an astronaut? Or even a sanitation worker for the county who pays his ****ing bills and taxes?

I'm thinking that giving the child a chance > offing the poor little bastard.

[C&CDean]

You know what else always gets me about abortion supporters? They're the same people who freak out when somebody ball-peans a newborn pup or kitten because it's deformed or "not viable." They're seriously confused people. They'll protest in a PETA shirt while their daughter is downtown getting their grandchild scraped outta her womb and they're happy for her. Sick ****s.

[tommieharris91]

Yeah, so? What if that child grows up to be the next POTUS? Or an engineer? Or an astronaut? Or even a sanitation worker for the county who pays his ****ing bills and taxes?

I'm thinking that giving the child a chance > offing the poor little bastard.

The correct life description was "Heisman winning and National Champion QB."

[C&CDean]

Well there you go...

[Crucifax Autumn]

You know who should have had abortions? All those people who had kids that talk during movies, that's who.

[sooner59]

You know what else always gets me about abortion supporters? They're the same people who freak out when somebody ball-peans a newborn pup or kitten because it's deformed or "not viable." They're seriously confused people. They'll protest in a PETA shirt while their daughter is downtown getting their grandchild scraped outta her womb and they're happy for her. Sick ****s.

Yeah, and I didn't say I supported abortion in all cases. I do in rape cases, though. And I could give two ****s about PETA, because they are extremist dooshbags. If you want to lump everyone who supports abortion in any case imaginable, fine. And call them all sick ****s. But it is delusional to think they are all the same types of people who circle jerk to abortion. I just wrote in another post that the only cases that I don't have a problem with is rape and incest. I never said every woman who is raped should get an abortion, just that it should be their choice. I am all for carrying to term and giving up for adoption if you don't want it. The child will be better off anyway with a family that wants it. And when you quoted me, I was speaking to the scenario, not what should happen. I was pointing out that even if the government doesn't pay for the abortion, they would pay the mother to take care of the child if she kept it. Which is why it would be in the best interest, fiscally, for the government if she had the baby and gave it up for adoption. I don't think people should get abortions, but in some cases I can't tell them that they shouldn't be allowed to make the choice.

I'm not about to look some girl in the eye that just got raped and impregnated by her meth-head father and tell her, "Tough ****. What are you going to name it?"

[JohnnyMack]

And I'm a sexy bitch ain't I?

<barfs>

[C&CDean]

I'm pretty sure I wasn't talking directly to you.

Here's the deal though. Go out and find 100 abortion supporters. And by supporters I mean people who think it's a righteous form of birth control. There's lots of them out there. After you find them, get their take on ball-peening a puppy. Get back to me.

[JohnnyMack]

I'd rather ball peen a barrel of puppies than ever see you in that thong again.

[Crucifax Autumn]

You know what else always gets me about abortion supporters? They're the same people who freak out when somebody ball-peans a newborn pup or kitten because it's deformed or "not viable." They're seriously confused people. They'll protest in a PETA shirt while their daughter is downtown getting their grandchild scraped outta her womb and they're happy for her. Sick ****s.

Not me, get rid of the puppies, kittens, 90% of adults AND the future delinquents of America.

J/K...Seriously

[sooner59]

I'm pretty sure I wasn't talking directly to you.

Here's the deal though. Go out and find 100 abortion supporters. And by supporters I mean people who think it's a righteous form of birth control. There's lots of them out there. After you find them, get their take on ball-peening a puppy. Get back to me.

Ok. It just sounded like you were addressing me, but I apologize if you weren't. And you are right. People who think it is a righteous from of birth control make me sick as well. And yeah, they would go ballistic over a puppy.

But fear not! According to whorn fans with signs at the fair when we play tejas, Bob Stoops hates puppies. I think that's how he keeps his edge, though. ;)

[yermom]

me and Dean are like 100% in agreement on this one. scary.

and fiscally, it's better for the government for any poor people to abort...

[sooner59]

me and Dean are like 100% in agreement on this one. scary.

and fiscally, it's better for the government for any poor people to abort...

But most people who adopt can afford to take care of a baby without government help. And in the long run, wouldn't it be better for the economy? The new parents buy things for the baby and the baby grows up to contribute to economy as well. Not picking a fight, but wondering why this wouldn't be a valid idea.

[Veritas]

You know, I'm torn about abortion. On one hand, I do think that it is a human life and I'm generally against killing. On the other hand, I don't really care for other people, especially kids.

It's a complex, emotional issue

[yermom]

But most people who adopt can afford to take care of a baby without government help. And in the long run, wouldn't it be better for the economy? The new parents buy things for the baby and the baby grows up to contribute to economy as well. Not picking a fight, but wondering why this wouldn't be a valid idea.

they also get hella tax breaks

but yeah, i hadn't thought of the secondary effects :D

[JohnnyMack]

You know, I'm torn about abortion. On one hand, I do think that it is a human life and I'm generally against killing. On the other hand, I don't really care for other people, especially kids.

It's a complex, emotional issue

Are you still babysitting for us this weekend?

[TopDawg]

Go out and find 100 abortion supporters. And by supporters I mean people who think it's a righteous form of birth control. There's lots of them out there. After you find them, get their take on ball-peening a puppy. Get back to me.

You basically just said "Go out there and find 100 crazy people. Then get back with me and let me know if they're crazy."

[ndpruitt03]

I think abortion is for the individuals involved to decide. There's some situations like the baby not being able to survive for some reason where you have to abort. But I believe it should be available as a choice. Now I do think that abortion is wrong personally, but it should be available as an alternative.

[C&CDean]

You basically just said "Go out there and find 100 crazy people. Then get back with me and let me know if they're crazy."

So what you're saying is that most Democrats are crazy?

[C&CDean]

I think abortion is for the individuals involved to decide. There's some situations like the baby not being able to survive for some reason where you have to abort. But I believe it should be available as a choice. Now I do think that abortion is wrong personally, but it should be available as an alternative.

Oh. Pedophilia is wrong, but it should be available if somebody is into that sort of thing?

Abortion as birth control is nothing more than simple murder. Period. In fact in some ways it's worse. It's murder for convenience. I didn't want to be troubled, so I killed the little ****er.

[Crucifax Autumn]

So what you're saying is that most Democrats are crazy?

Let's be fair here...

So are Republicans, Greens, Reforms, Libertarians, Socialist party members, etc.

People is just whacked, yo! :P

[ndpruitt03]

Oh. Pedophilia is wrong, but it should be available if somebody is into that sort of thing?

Abortion as birth control is nothing more than simple murder. Period. In fact in some ways it's worse. It's murder for convenience. I didn't want to be troubled, so I killed the little ****er.
There's some medical situations that happen such as mirror syndrome were a baby is basically a leach and killing it's mother. Others were if a baby is born it'll be without a major organ and will die once the baby is born. But those are situations where it's a necessity to have an abortion. That's different from what this thread is about. If a person doesn't want to have a kid, be it because of family or their personal decisions, that's their decision. It's better than going through 9 months just to give the baby up in one way or another. I do think it's wrong to just promote abortion like some pro choice people do. Most of the pro choice anymore isn't really just pro choice people anymore are really just pro abortion not really pro choice.

[TopDawg]

So what you're saying is that most Democrats are crazy?

The ones that think that abortion is a "righteous form of birth control" are. But I don't think most Democrats think that.

[Veritas]

Are you still babysitting for us this weekend?
Yeah, and I turned down the voltage on the cattle prod as you asked, but seriously, they should just learn to deal with electricity, it's not going to kill them.

[Veritas]

Oh, and all of these edge case arguments are bull****. Edge cases do not prove the general position. You can't justify an elective abortion using the rape/retard argument.

[yermom]

by "rightous form of birth control" i'm thinking "little Suzy is going to college, she doesn't want to have a baby right now, she should have an abortion."

i don't really see why this is any different than drowning your toddler in your SUV

[Veritas]

Well, one ruins a perfectly good SUV. OTOH, it gets one of those awful environmentally unfriendly vehicles off the road.

It's just so difficult to take a stance on this one.

[PDXsooner]

it's interesting when someone who has a "hard core" personality claims such moral highground with abortion. just to be clear, i'm not addressing anyone specifically. but i know guys who are super gung-ho when it comes to wars, having no problems with the killing of innocent civilians in iraq, afghanistan, vietnam, wherever...yet they have this sudden feeling of sympathy with innocent potential-humans...

the same people who would string up and execute prisoners here claim such compassion for human life in other situations.

also, many of the children that are aborted would be born into unwanted homes, mistreated or grow up with one parent, commit crimes, and then become the type of person that these "pro-lifers" despise.

i'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's just interesting how these angles all play out...

[PDXsooner]

oh, and i also think there's a big difference between "pro-abortion" and "pro-choice"...many people support a woman's right to choose yet would never get an abortion themselves.

[PDXsooner]

is masturbation murder? sperm are potential people. god, i hope not.

[Veritas]

it's interesting when someone who has a "hard core" personality claims such moral highground with abortion. just to be clear, i'm not addressing anyone specifically. but i know guys who are super gung-ho when it comes to wars, having no problems with the killing of innocent civilians in iraq, afghanistan, vietnam, wherever...yet they have this sudden feeling of sympathy with innocent potential-humans...
I don't know of anybody that has "no problems" with the killing of innocent civilians. The historical record has shown that a by-product of wars is the death of innocent on both sides of a conflict.

[PDXsooner]

I don't know of anybody that has "no problems" with the killing of innocent civilians. The historical record has shown that a by-product of wars is the death of innocent on both sides of a conflict.

i'm not so sure. i work with a bunch of pretty conservative guys and they're in what i would call the "hard-core conservative" category. many of them have stated how they "don't give a **** how many iraqis have to die" to win the war and when the subject of civilians being killed comes up the collective stance is generally that they couldn't care less.

hell, if you really think about it, supporting war at all is supporting murder. i don't buy the "yes, but the war will save more lives in the big picture" argument.

either way, just interesting discussion points...

[OUMallen]

Abortion harms the autonomy of the child in the womb, but any legislation banning the procedure infringes on the autonomy of the mother and also results in more government.

Discuss.

No one should be pro-abortion.

Easy call though, other than the funny syntax. Pro-choice.

[OUMallen]

i'm not so sure. i work with a bunch of pretty conservative guys and they're in what i would call the "hard-core conservative" category. many of them have stated how they "don't give a **** how many iraqis have to die" to win the war and when the subject of civilians being killed comes up the collective stance is generally that they couldn't care less.

hell, if you really think about it, supporting war at all is supporting murder. i don't buy the "yes, but the war will save more lives in the big picture" argument.

either way, just interesting discussion points...

A staunch libertarian will only support foreign war when attacked first. Staunch libertarians generally don't believe in pre-empitive strikes or in meddling in other countries' affairs.

[OUMallen]

I'm pretty sure I wasn't talking directly to you.

Here's the deal though. Go out and find 100 abortion supporters. And by supporters I mean people who think it's a righteous form of birth control. There's lots of them out there. After you find them, get their take on ball-peening a puppy. Get back to me.

I don't know anyone that views abortion as a "righteous form of birth control." And I'm about as pro-choice as they come.

[PDXsooner]

some more things i wonder...

If life begins at conception then will you be letting people drive at 15 years 3 months of age, and vote at 17 years 3 months and drink at 20 years 3 months?

also, how can you be pro-life except in cases of incest or rape? either you're pro-life or you're not. it doesn't make sense to be so staunchly opposed yet with a few exceptions...

[PDXsooner]

another thing: these people that are so strong in their pro-life stance...are they as staunch in support of starving or neglected or abused children? it seems like once the child is born all bets are off, they go back to not caring...

[OUMallen]

another thing: these people that are so strong in their pro-life stance...are they as staunch in support of starving or neglected or abused children? it seems like once the child is born all bets are off, they go back to not caring...

That's one of my problems with the moral high-ground some take. Not everyone, but some.

They want to force a woman to have a baby the woman doesn't want and can't support, but they don't want to chip in on it afterward. Then they get mad about welfare.

Most pro-lifers like to yell and scream about it, but wouldn't put their money where their mouth is. What if I said to a major pro-lifer: I'll give you the option of making everyone in the country pro-life and restrict abortions, but you have to directly contribute part of your paycheck to the care of the child. Not a huge sum or anything, but your money is involved.

If you're making someone do something they don't want to do, then you should be willing to chip in on the cost, IMO.

(Not that pro-choicers don't like to yell and scream like bleating idiots, too. We do.)

[SanJoaquinSooner]

If my balls were on your chin, where would my dick be?

At the prom after-party with your boyfriend?

[ndpruitt03]

another thing: these people that are so strong in their pro-life stance...are they as staunch in support of starving or neglected or abused children? it seems like once the child is born all bets are off, they go back to not caring...
You make a good point. I'm not as pro-abortion as you seem to be but is it better to abort a fetus or leave a baby abandoned because they can't afford it. Abortion should be a women's decisions. We shouldn't just say it's murder or that every person should do it to control population or silly stuff like that on both extremes.

[PDXsooner]

You make a good point. I'm not as pro-abortion as you seem to be but is it better to abort a fetus or leave a baby abandoned because they can't afford it. Abortion should be a women's decisions. We shouldn't just say it's murder or that every person should do it to control population or silly stuff like that on both extremes.

i'm an analyzer. i'm not wired to be black and white like some people are. these are just the things that cross my mind. i just like the discussion. it sure seems to get people fire up though, that's for sure...

i'm not pro-abortion, i'm pro-choice...

[landrun]

If a homeless woman is beaten and gang raped by a roving band of thugs, should the government allow an abortion to take place?

Probably so. But you're playing a silly game and you know it. Just because someone is gang raped and becomes pregnant doesn't mean that an 18 year old girl should be able to abort her baby just because it is an inconvenience to her.

You list a hypothetical situation that never happens - and if it does it is extremely rate - all to justify 99% of all abortions which are totally different and unjustifiable.

[PDXsooner]

Probably so. But you're playing a silly game and you know it. Just because someone is gang raped and becomes pregnant doesn't mean that an 18 year old girl should be able to abort her baby just because it is an inconvenience to her.

You list a hypothetical situation that never happens - and if it does it is extremely rate - all to justify 99% of all abortions which are totally different and unjustifiable.

women get raped and pregnant in 3rd world countries quite often.

[landrun]

That's one of my problems with the moral high-ground some take. Not everyone, but some.

They want to force a woman to have a baby the woman doesn't want and can't support, but they don't want to chip in on it afterward. Then they get mad about welfare.

Most pro-lifers like to yell and scream about it, but wouldn't put their money where their mouth is. What if I said to a major pro-lifer: I'll give you the option of making everyone in the country pro-life and restrict abortions, but you have to directly contribute part of your paycheck to the care of the child. Not a huge sum or anything, but your money is involved.

If you're making someone do something they don't want to do, then you should be willing to chip in on the cost, IMO.

(Not that pro-choicers don't like to yell and scream like bleating idiots, too. We do.)

Seriously, you couldn't be more wrong. I personally know several people, all but one who is female, who work for free at women centers around town to give support to girls who have gotten pregnant.

The pro-choice people always want to paint pro-lifers like religious zealots who are hate mongers with some sort of holier-than-thou attitude. I am more religious than most people I know. But the women I'm speaking of have all had abortions, many of them have had multiple abortions. The most fanatic pro-lifers in the world are women who have had abortions.

The most pro-choice people in the country are single men ages 18-35.

And just so you know, pro lifers do give out of their own pocket to support organizations who care for teenagers who've gotten pregnant. These organization couldn't even exist without people doing exactly what you say they're not doing. Unlike planned parenthood, who makes millions by talking girls into having abortions, these organization survive by gifts given by people with genuine compassion.

It is the abortionists in the abortion industry who not only make millions talking girls into getting abortions but who also get even more millions from the federal government who don't care about these girls. I'm not trying to be rude. But you are 100% wrong here.

[PDXsooner]

The most pro-choice people in the country are single men ages 18-35.



wouldn't the most pro-choice people in the world have to be women? every single abortion ever performed would ultimately have to be have been made by a female, no?

[47straight]

Most pro-lifers like to yell and scream about it, but wouldn't put their money where their mouth is. What if I said to a major pro-lifer: I'll give you the option of making everyone in the country pro-life and restrict abortions, but you have to directly contribute part of your paycheck to the care of the child. Not a huge sum or anything, but your money is involved.

Clearly you don't know many pro-lifers. I know a ton who already open up their pocketbooks for women and newborns who are in a rough patch.

[Crucifax Autumn]

I know total idiots on both sides of the issue. I also know thoughtful and generous smart people on both sides.

[landrun]

wouldn't the most pro-choice people in the world have to be women? every single abortion ever performed would ultimately have to be have been made by a female, no?

No. Just because only a woman can have an abortion doesn't mean they're most pro-choice people in America. The majority of women do not have abortions and are abhorrently opposed to them.

Women are far more likely to be opposed to abortion than men.
Women are far more likely to be involved in giving their time to help girls who have gotten pregnant then men are. They believe it is painful for the mothers who are talked into the decision of aborting their child.

Men on the other hand, have never had a single abortion and don't have to endure the mental anguish that women do when they come to grips to what they've done. But they're all supportive of women having abortions. The reasons are obvious aren't they?

[yermom]

wouldn't the most pro-choice people in the world have to be women? every single abortion ever performed would ultimately have to be have been made by a female, no?

this is my experience... if you are pro-life you hate women's rights or whatever

[yermom]

women get raped and pregnant in 3rd world countries quite often.

i'm pretty sure they aren't affected by laws in the US

[Harry Beanbag]

i'm not so sure. i work with a bunch of pretty conservative guys and they're in what i would call the "hard-core conservative" category. many of them have stated how they "don't give a **** how many iraqis have to die" to win the war and when the subject of civilians being killed comes up the collective stance is generally that they couldn't care less.

hell, if you really think about it, supporting war at all is supporting murder. i don't buy the "yes, but the war will save more lives in the big picture" argument.

either way, just interesting discussion points...


No, it really isn't all that interesting at all. Anecdotal evidence that is most likely embellished and/or completely fabricated to suit your warped POV does nothing for me or this discussion.

[Harry Beanbag]

is masturbation murder? sperm are potential people. god, i hope not.


If life begins at conception then will you be letting people drive at 15 years 3 months of age, and vote at 17 years 3 months and drink at 20 years 3 months?


I hope you're not serious.

[Harry Beanbag]

i'm pretty sure they aren't affected by laws in the US

Depends on if they're Islamic terrorists or not. ;)

[Collier11]

Yeah, and I didn't say I supported abortion in all cases. I do in rape cases, though. And I could give two ****s about PETA, because they are extremist dooshbags. If you want to lump everyone who supports abortion in any case imaginable, fine. And call them all sick ****s. But it is delusional to think they are all the same types of people who circle jerk to abortion. I just wrote in another post that the only cases that I don't have a problem with is rape and incest. I never said every woman who is raped should get an abortion, just that it should be their choice. I am all for carrying to term and giving up for adoption if you don't want it. The child will be better off anyway with a family that wants it. And when you quoted me, I was speaking to the scenario, not what should happen. I was pointing out that even if the government doesn't pay for the abortion, they would pay the mother to take care of the child if she kept it. Which is why it would be in the best interest, fiscally, for the government if she had the baby and gave it up for adoption. I don't think people should get abortions, but in some cases I can't tell them that they shouldn't be allowed to make the choice.

I'm not about to look some girl in the eye that just got raped and impregnated by her meth-head father and tell her, "Tough ****. What are you going to name it?"

Why in rape cases? Its not the childs fault...I think that is a case where the women should have more of a choice than others but to me, its never the childs fault so why punish them

[Collier11]

oh, and i also think there's a big difference between "pro-abortion" and "pro-choice"...many people support a woman's right to choose yet would never get an abortion themselves.

yet the dad who helped create the child has no say in it, that in itself makes it wrong

[Crucifax Autumn]

I think there should be a right to choose with the condition that if the father signs legal documents taking full responsibility for the child and it's not a matter of endangering the woman then she should carry the child.

[Collier11]

I would be fine with that

[sooner59]

Why in rape cases? Its not the childs fault...I think that is a case where the women should have more of a choice than others but to me, its never the childs fault so why punish them

It's not the child's fault. I get that. I assume you didn't read my other post where I said I don't think that all of them "should" get an abortion. I specifically stated that in that case, it should be their choice. So we are actually in agreement on that. I should have stated it differently. I don't actually support abortion in "any" case, I just don't oppose them making that choice in cases of rape. I don't want to be a person who supports denying people a chance at life, but at the same time, impregnation due to rape is something that, as a man, I will never experience. And that means that I will never understand how a woman must feel. They may feel robbed of the life they had done everything to achieve, because some beast exerted their force and malice on them. While I believe that the best thing to do would be having the baby and give it to a family who may not be able to conceive children of their own, I can not tell them it is not their choice. That is just my opinion. I know many feel differently, but I can't change the way I feel.

[Veritas]

That's one of my problems with the moral high-ground some take. Not everyone, but some.
So...claiming that stance as "moral high ground" seems sorta BS.

One, it's a sort of passive-aggressive ad-hominem attack.

Two, this stance you're referring to is someone who sees a murder taking place. Taking a stance against murder isn't any kind of high ground at all, it's support for the basic human right to live without death at another's hand.

[Collier11]

It's not the child's fault. I get that. I assume you didn't read my other post where I said I don't think that all of them "should" get an abortion. I specifically stated that in that case, it should be their choice. So we are actually in agreement on that. I should have stated it differently. I don't actually support abortion in "any" case, I just don't oppose them making that choice in cases of rape. I don't want to be a person who supports denying people a chance at life, but at the same time, impregnation due to rape is something that, as a man, I will never experience. And that means that I will never understand how a woman must feel. They may feel robbed of the life they had done everything to achieve, because some beast exerted their force and malice on them. While I believe that the best thing to do would be having the baby and give it to a family who may not be able to conceive children of their own, I can not tell them it is not their choice. That is just my opinion. I know many feel differently, but I can't change the way I feel.


Ya we are mostly in agreement, I just think that pro choice is a BS cop out (not from you, just in general) for people to be lazy. If she was raped it would be hard to tell a women to have the baby but I also think she should, sometimes you have to make decisions that are bigger than you

[Harry Beanbag]

Just so we're clear, abortions after rape/incest account for around 1% of all abortions in the United States. Since Roe v. Wade, approximately 45 million babies' lives have been ended at the rate of over 1 million per year. BTW, approximately 80% of raped/incested women choose not to have an abortion.

[JohnnyMack]

Ya we are mostly in agreement, I just think that pro choice is a BS cop out (not from you, just in general) for people to be lazy. If she was raped it would be hard to tell a women to have the baby but I also think she should, sometimes you have to make decisions that are bigger than you

No different than thinking that a pro-life has nothing to do with what's ultimately best for the woman (specifically a rape victim) or society as a whole. I think that the Catholic church's stance towards birth control is disgusting as well. They want to proselytize to the poor indigenous folks of Africa so they can swell their numbers, encouraging lots of unprotected sex for folks who have no business having more children. The pro-life and no birth control stance put forth by the church is a numbers game, nothing more.

[yermom]

Just so we're clear, abortions after rape/incest account for around 1% of all abortions in the United States. Since Roe v. Wade, approximately 45 million babies' lives have been ended at the rate of over 1 million per year. BTW, approximately 80% of raped/incested women choose not to have an abortion.

link?

[Harry Beanbag]

link?

The overall statistics are everywhere. The 80% nugget is here: http://www.boundless.org/regulars/kaufman/a0000848.html


http://www.abortiontv.com/Misc/AbortionStatistics.htm#United%20States

[virginiasooner]

All this talk about abortion, and nothing about sex education and birth control. I wish pro-lifers would be more vocal on PREVENTING unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Instead, all we get is that girls need to keep their knees glued together until they get married. Seriously, how realistic is "abstinence only" sex education? It's not the least bit realistic. Fully fund comprehensive sex education -- make it a requirement to graduate from high school, like four years of English. Make birth control easy to obtain. And I don't like the thought of teenagers (13-17) having sex -- but I'd rather they learn how to protect themselves from predators than get pregnant (or contract a sexually transmitted disease). I consider pro-lifers against education and birth control the modern equivalent of the Anti Sex League.

[yermom]

high school isn't early enough. maybe to get into high school...

[yermom]

The overall statistics are everywhere. The 80% nugget is here: http://www.boundless.org/regulars/kaufman/a0000848.html


http://www.abortiontv.com/Misc/AbortionStatistics.htm#United%20States

thanks. i have always claimed that it was a very small minority, but never had real data ;)

[SoonerProphet]

That abortion tv web site seems a bit bias and that is putting it in mild terms.

[Veritas]

Ok, so here's a question.

My wife has baby at 26 weeks. Two hours after delivery, I strangle the baby. I would be charged with murder.


Same baby, 26 weeks in, my wife aborts it...that's legal.

How does this make sense?

[virginiasooner]

Um, Veritas, IT'S NOT LEGAL to abort a 26 week fetus, unless there is something wrong with it.

And any woman who waits 26 weeks to HAVE an abortion is an idiot.

[Chuck Bao]

I still don't think that Libertarians should ever want more government intrusion on personal decisions. Any talk of murdering babies is not at all helpful, but the point that "what if I had aborted my children" has to hit a nerve that is very personal and emotional. And, any of you would have had to make this very hard life decision, you have my love and support.

In science terms, it is like taking the discussion back to the "Big Bang". Did God instruct it? Are we to think that a soul was created at the moment of conception and then destroyed against His wishes. Are birth control pills acceptable? How about "morning after" pills?

At some point, we all have to draw a line and also recognize that others may have drawn a line at another place.

So, how many would be in favor of the "morning after" pill that are so opposed to an abortion?

I am also a little surprised that some people posting here were not so condemning of the murder of that late-term abortion doctor in Kansas a couple years ago. By the posts written here it seemed like the guy had it coming and I was basically agreeing at first. That was until I read elsewhere that he was one of the few doctors in the country willing to perform late term abortions BECAUSE the fetus was not viable or would endanger the mother’s life. You can talk percentages but that unfortunately happens.

Yeah, it is a difficult and harsh question. I would think that Libertarians would essentially fall on the side of "I would prefer the choice".

[Veritas]

Sure they are; you can't just walk it and do it, it has to be signed off on by physicians as endangering the mother's life, but under those circumstances it's legal in a some states.

Abortion advocates such as the Guttmacher Institute hold these restrictions as unconstitutional.

So...address the question.

Also, in transparency, these types of abortions are like less than a percent so it's an edge case argument and I hate those, but I'm still curious abou the logic...

[yermom]

it's also illegal to stop feeding it after it's born at 26 weeks

but if it's in a coma at ~40 years, you are golden ;)

[virginiasooner]

Veritas, learn to read -- that's what I said.

As for how to treat a 5 1/2 month premature fetus -- that's for you to decide. It's called PRIVACY for a reason. Medical decisions are best left to those who need to make them, not some unseen bureaucrat (i.e., an insurance company).

[olevetonahill]

Ok a Libertarian Has No opinion on this until and unless it directly affects them personally.

Kinda the way I feel about it, I aint got a dog in this fight so I aint gettin to involved. Every one can say they FEEL this way or that . But until they are directly affected they are not really gonna know how they feel.

You can say yer against Capital Punishment, But if some one brutally murders a Loved one and you can still say that , then you are def. against it .

[Chuck Bao]

Ok a Libertarian Has No opinion on this until and unless it directly affects them personally.

Kinda the way I feel about it, I aint got a dog in this fight so I aint gettin to involved. Every one can say they FEEL this way or that . But until they are directly affected they are not really gonna know how they feel.

You can say yer against Capital Punishment, But if some one brutally murders a Loved one and you can still say that , then you are def. against it .

I very much disagree. A true Libertarian cannot sit back and say that he or she cannot have a valid opinion until they are faced with the dilemma directly. If you are waiting for your liberties until you miss them or they are gone, it is far too late. Fight for it now.

[olevetonahill]

I very much disagree. A true Libertarian cannot sit back and say that he or she cannot have a valid opinion until they are faced with the dilemma directly. If you are waiting for your liberties until you miss them or they are gone, it is far too late. Fight for it now.

Ok bro , I didnt make my case very well. :O
Tryin to say a Libertarian isnt gonna get involved in some one elses deal unless it affects his Freedoms
better ?

[JohnnyMack]

One day I wanna get drunk with OV and Chuck. I think that would rule.

[olevetonahill]

One day I wanna get drunk with OV and Chuck. I think that would rule.

Drunkytown Tonight ?:D

[Chuck Bao]

Ok bro , I didnt make my case very well. :O
Tryin to say a Libertarian isnt gonna get involved in some one elses deal unless it affects his Freedoms
better ?

Okay. But, no. I don't think a liberarian should also just ignore government intervention in the case of other issues like immigration and minority protection if it doesn't directly involve them.

[olevetonahill]

Okay. But, no. I don't think a liberarian should also just ignore government intervention in the case of other issues like immigration and minority protection if it doesn't directly involve them.

Chuck the question wasnt about Gov. intervention . It seemed to me like he was just askin which stance on abortion a Libertarian would take ;)

[PDXsooner]

Kinda the way I feel about it, I aint got a dog in this fight so I aint gettin to involved. Every one can say they FEEL this way or that . But until they are directly affected they are not really gonna know how they feel.
.

i agree with this...and i'll bet a crapload of "pro-lifers" would be lining up at the abortion clinic after they shot their load in some ugly fat whore they slept with while on a business trip bender while cheating on their wives...

just a hunch

[olevetonahill]

i agree with this...and i'll bet a crapload of "pro-lifers" would be lining up at the abortion clinic after they shot their load in some ugly fat whore they slept with while on a business trip bender while cheating on their wives...

just a hunch

This makes no sense. Why in hell would dudes go to an abortion clinic ?They aint the ones knocked up.

[PDXsooner]

This makes no sense. Why in hell would dudes go to an abortion clinic ?They aint the ones knocked up.

touche. the first ones encouraging the fat whore to line up at the clinic.

[NormanPride]

One day I wanna get drunk with OV and Chuck. I think that would rule.

I'd throw in Scott as well. Even though I know 90% of the time he's just be ragging me on how whipped I am. :D

[sooner ngintunr]

Sure they are; you can't just walk it and do it, it has to be signed off on by physicians as endangering the mother's life, but under those circumstances it's legal in a some states.

Abortion advocates such as the Guttmacher Institute hold these restrictions as unconstitutional.

So...address the question.

Also, in transparency, these types of abortions are like less than a percent so it's an edge case argument and I hate those, but I'm still curious abou the logic...

Wait, so your asking why its legal to abort a fetus @ 26 weeks to save the mothers life but why it's not legal to strangle a 26 week old kid that was just born?

You really need an answer for that one?

BTW, wouldn't most people want to try an emergency c section to try and save the baby?

[Harry Beanbag]

That abortion tv web site seems a bit bias and that is putting it in mild terms.


Of course. You can't post a damn link about anything without somebody saying it's biased and irrelevant.

[PDXsooner]

Of course. You can't post a damn link about anything without somebody saying it's biased and irrelevant.

i do agree, but the irony here is that i don't think there's a poster on these boards with less bias than SP...

[King Barry's Back]

Politically they should be pro-choice and against any federal funding. Morally and personally they should base their views on their own morality system, religion, life experience, and when they think life begins.

This has traditionally been the position of most self-identified "libertarians."

There are at least two reasons for this.

The first is that MANY "self-described libertarians" are not really libertarians -- libertarians defined as people who have a principled and deeply held belief that govt powers at all levels should be pared to the bare minimum to maximize individual freedom.

Many self-described libertarians are actually more like hedonists or sometimes just sexual or narcotics thrill seekers who are looking for a political movement that would appear to give their behavior some great justification. "I screw other mens wives while they watch for freedom!"

Since those types of folks at root are usually trying to create a society where sexual behavior has few or no consequences (good luck with that!), they tend to favor abortion, early and often.

Also, the more serious libertarians tend to support broad abortion rights because they want to restrict the power of government.

But there is another equally principled argument that says, essentially, unborn fetuses should basically be recognized as fully separate and whole human beings, with all right, including to not have their lives snuffed out by a medical procedure.

SO, I think, libertarianism per se doesn't have a definitive answer to the question.

I remember one guy tried to argue that individuals should be given the maximum possible rights and freedoms, with as little govt interference as possible. He then defined individuals (paraphrase) as entities that could come forward and claim their rights.

He thus eliminated concepts such as animal rights, or environmental rights, etc -- because neither dogs and cats, fish in the sea, nor "the earth" can state a claim to their rights. This also eliminated unlimited rights for small children, and for unborn fetuses.

The obvious problem with this position is that retarded, comatose, or brain damaged people (and babies and toddlers) would have no rights either.

So there you go. My summary of libertarianism and abortion.

Basically, it boils down to whether you recognize fetuses as human, or not.

[Crucifax Autumn]

And that's all well-reasoned and quite honestly goes right back to what I said...Leave it as an individual moral decision and if you are anti-abortion get your *ss out there and council teens, teach safe sex and abstinence, teach birth control, council women considering abortion, create awareness about adoption, etc.

There are more productive ways to combat rising abortion rates than just forbidding the practice altogether and these ways create less backlash and give the opposing side a harder to hit target.

[Leroy Lizard]

Leave it as an individual moral decision and if you are anti-abortion get your *ss out there and council teens, teach safe sex and abstinence, teach birth control, council women considering abortion, create awareness about adoption, etc.

Sorry, crux, but this is rather simplistic. Those who oppose abortion consider it murder. To ask them to look the other way is a bit much.

[Veritas]

Sorry, crux, but this is rather simplistic. Those who oppose abortion consider it murder. To ask them to look the other way is a bit much.
For me (and my wife) it really is that simple. As far as I'm concerned, most of the stuff that abortion advocates raise is just a smokescreen around a decision to kill. It's not about women's rights; you go **** whoever you want with your body. Just don't be all shocked when one of the byproducts of ****ing shows up.

[JohnnyMack]

Outlawing abortion is like outlawing sex. You can do it, but you won't stop it. While I agree that abortion as birth control is disgusting and I'm opposed to that concept from a moral standpoint; I can't say that I'm opposed to the concept of abortion existing. Oh it would be nice to think we lived in a world where it wasn't necessary, but as someone who's wife has had an ectopic pregnancy, I can tell you that sometimes the procedure is in fact necessary. If you think your Jesus tells you that we shouldn't have done what we did I can go ahead and tell you to go **** yourself.

[yermom]

are ectopic pregnancies even viable at all?

[JohnnyMack]

are ectopic pregnancies even viable at all?

The embryo will just keep growing. It doesn't know it's in the wrong place.

[Leroy Lizard]

Outlawing abortion is like outlawing sex. You can do it, but you won't stop it.

The same could be said for thievery, murder, prostitution, extortion, blackmail, speeding, drunk driving...

C'mon, where do you get these arguments?

[yermom]

The embryo will just keep growing. It doesn't know it's in the wrong place.

right, but short of Christian Scientists, i don't think anyone thinks abortion in that case shouldn't be available or performed

[sooner ngintunr]

The same could be said for thievery, murder, prostitution, extortion, blackmail, speeding, drunk driving...

C'mon, where do you get these arguments?

And which one of those is a medical procedure?

Legal abortions in a medical clinic are better than an Illegal one with a coat hanger in an alley. You'd rather have the coat hanger in an alley?

C'mon, where do you get these arguments?

[Leroy Lizard]

And which one of those is a medical procedure?

Your argument was that X should not be outlawed because outlawing X would not stop X. Here is what you said:


Outlawing abortion is like outlawing sex. You can do it, but you won't stop it.

Sex is not a medical procedure. So you are now you are shifting the argument. It wouldn't do me any good to list any medical procedures because you would shift the argument once more. "Yeah, but how many of those have the letters "b-o-r-t" in them?"

What does it take to get those engaged in an abortion debate (both sides) to argue in a rational manner?!?!

[Leroy Lizard]

Legal abortions in a medical clinic are better than an Illegal one with a coat hanger in an alley. You'd rather have the coat hanger in an alley?

More faulty reasoning, which I call the "emotional extortion" angle.

[sooner ngintunr]

Your argument was that X should not be outlawed because outlawing X would not stop X. Here is what you said:



Sex is not a medical procedure. So you are now you are shifting the argument. It wouldn't do me any good to list any medical procedures because you would shift the argument once more. "Yeah, but how many of those have the letters "b-o-r-t" in them?"

What does it take to get those engaged in an abortion debate (both sides) to argue in a rational manner?!?!

FWIW, I didn't say it.

I can't think of any elective medical procedures that are not legal.

Name some.

[sooner ngintunr]

More faulty reasoning, which I call the "emotional extortion" angle.

Its only faulty because you don't agree with it.

Would you rather have illegal abortions or legal abortions?

I'd rather have none.

Thats besides the point because abortions have been being performed while they were not legal.

It's kind of like the prohibition of alcohol, it didn't work out so well.

[yermom]

it's not legal to leave your baby in a dumpster either. that doesn't mean it doesn't happen

[olevetonahill]

Yall know what is funny as hell about this Thread ?
From what Ive read here theres not but one person here who has 1st hand hand knowledge of whats going on , (JM)
Then the simple fact that ONLY guys are debating and or arguing about this .
My self , Ima wait till the wimmens chime in and just Keep My opinion to myself :pop:

[King Barry's Back]

And that's all well-reasoned and quite honestly goes right back to what I said...Leave it as an individual moral decision and if you are anti-abortion get your *ss out there and council teens, teach safe sex and abstinence, teach birth control, council women considering abortion, create awareness about adoption, etc.

There are more productive ways to combat rising abortion rates than just forbidding the practice altogether and these ways create less backlash and give the opposing side a harder to hit target.

Oh, CAutumn, I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you, or anyone, I am just trying to answer the question of "What does libertarianism believe about the legality of abortion."

I've wondered about that question myself -- and my post above pretty much sums up what I've found re: the views of "libertarianism" on abortion.

I didn't say what I believe, I didn't say what I thought libertarians should believe, and I didn't try to argue a point. Just saying that based on purely libertarian principles, a person could or would be on either side of the debate, based almost entirely if they believe that the fetus should have rights of "personhood" bestowed on them.

All I've said so far I guess is a preamble to stating my beliefs--but I am not a libertarian, so that would be irrelevant to this thread.

[Leroy Lizard]

Its only faulty because you don't agree with it.

Would you rather have illegal abortions or legal abortions?

I'm not going to jump in with my own views on abortion. I just think many of the arguments you are relying on are flawed.

We don't establish laws just to prevent bad things from ever happening. If a teenager hurts themselves because they disobeyed the law, that doesn't make the law inherently bad.

Now, I do agree that the harm caused by illegal abortion is something that needs to be considered, so it can be one part of the equation. But we can't rely on that alone. Otherwise, we open ourselves up to emotional extortion: Give us what we want or we will hurt ourselves if you don't.


It's kind of like the prohibition of alcohol, it didn't work out so well.

Now extend your argument to heroin. Yes, banning heroin has driven up its costs and caused many to use it dangerously. Some have died as a result. But we can't just legalize it to avoid those catastrophes from taking place. The legalization of heroin has many issues to consider, not just problem-avoidance.

[Leroy Lizard]

From what Ive read here theres not but one person here who has 1st hand hand knowledge of whats going on , (JM)
Then the simple fact that ONLY guys are debating and or arguing about this .

Men can have an opinion on this as well.

[Leroy Lizard]

Just saying that based on purely libertarian principles, a person could or would be on either side of the debate, based almost entirely if they believe that the fetus should have rights of "personhood" bestowed on them.

That sounds pretty accurae.

[Collier11]

NM

[yermom]

Oh, CAutumn, I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you, or anyone, I am just trying to answer the question of "What does libertarianism believe about the legality of abortion."

I've wondered about that question myself -- and my post above pretty much sums up what I've found re: the views of "libertarianism" on abortion.

I didn't say what I believe, I didn't say what I thought libertarians should believe, and I didn't try to argue a point. Just saying that based on purely libertarian principles, a person could or would be on either side of the debate, based almost entirely if they believe that the fetus should have rights of "personhood" bestowed on them.

All I've said so far I guess is a preamble to stating my beliefs--but I am not a libertarian, so that would be irrelevant to this thread.

i guess this answers that question...

http://www.lp.org/platform


1.4 Abortion

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

[Leroy Lizard]

1.4 Abortion

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

In other words:

http://www.secsportsfan.com/images/college-football-punt.jpg

[JohnnyMack]

Men can have an opinion on this as well.

My opinion is that thanks to science my wife and I were able to learn that this particular pregnancy was flawed and could have led to my wife bleeding to death on a random Tuesday when the embryo grew too large and caused her Fallopian tube to rupture. I just can't imagine how someone could be 100% anti abortion, especially in a case such as ours. It wasn't prayer or religion that got us through it safely, it was better understanding through science that allowed us to make sure I don't have to raise our two boys alone.

[yermom]

i still don't see how that applies to this discussion

[Leroy Lizard]

My opinion is that thanks to science my wife and I were able to learn that this particular pregnancy was flawed and could have led to my wife bleeding to death on a random Tuesday when the embryo grew too large and caused her Fallopian tube to rupture. I just can't imagine how someone could be 100% anti abortion, especially in a case such as ours. It wasn't prayer or religion that got us through it safely, it was better understanding through science that allowed us to make sure I don't have to raise our two boys alone.

Has God personally spoken to you about abortion through Scripture, told you that it is murder, and commanded you to oppose it? If not, how could you ever possibly understand their viewpoint?

BTW, I am not particularly religious. But I do try to understand those on the other side of the fence. Might try it sometime.

[JohnnyMack]

Has God personally spoken to you about abortion through Scripture, told you that it is murder, and commanded you to oppose it? If not, how could you ever possibly understand their viewpoint?

BTW, I am not particularly religious. But I do try to understand those on the other side of the fence. Might try it sometime.

Yeah umm there's no such thing as god and so it hasn't ever spoken to me about, well, anything.

[Leroy Lizard]

Yeah umm there's no such thing as god...

Since you want to be perfectly logical, can you cite your sources?

[JohnnyMack]

We're off topic and in danger of ruining the thread, so we can talk more in a PM if you're really interested in a dialogue.

[Leroy Lizard]

We're off topic and in danger of ruining the thread, so we can talk more in a PM if you're really interested in a dialogue.

If you can't cite your sources, just say so.

Now, if you meant to say, "I don't BELIEVE there is a god," okay then.

[Collier11]

Its simple Leroy, those who dont believe claim that it cant be proven therefore there is no God yet when you ask them to prove there isnt a God they avoid it

[Leroy Lizard]

Well, you can't prove that something doesn't exist, but you can provide logical arguments that make its existence highly doubtful. I haven't even seen that.

[OUMallen]

Seriously, you couldn't be more wrong. I personally know several people, all but one who is female, who work for free at women centers around town to give support to girls who have gotten pregnant.

The pro-choice people always want to paint pro-lifers like religious zealots who are hate mongers with some sort of holier-than-thou attitude. I am more religious than most people I know. But the women I'm speaking of have all had abortions, many of them have had multiple abortions. The most fanatic pro-lifers in the world are women who have had abortions.

The most pro-choice people in the country are single men ages 18-35.

And just so you know, pro lifers do give out of their own pocket to support organizations who care for teenagers who've gotten pregnant. These organization couldn't even exist without people doing exactly what you say they're not doing. Unlike planned parenthood, who makes millions by talking girls into having abortions, these organization survive by gifts given by people with genuine compassion.

It is the abortionists in the abortion industry who not only make millions talking girls into getting abortions but who also get even more millions from the federal government who don't care about these girls. I'm not trying to be rude. But you are 100% wrong here.

I'm talking across the board tax increases to pay for medical care for a child that would otherwise be aborted. You're talking charitable contributions along with some wonderful anecdotal stories and creating some massive "abortion industry" where a faceless corporation is wanting to slice and dice babies. :rolleyes:

Let's take a poll of how many pro-lifers here are anti-Obamacare, and then you can calculate the percentage I'm "wrong." It ain't 100%.