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Fraggle145
3/1/2010, 01:13 PM
****. :eek: :mad:

**** you Supreme Court.

Don't worry you just drink it every day.

Mother****ers.



Toxic Waters
Rulings Restrict Clean Water Act, Foiling E.P.A.


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/03/01/business/01water_CA0/01water_CA0-articleLarge.jpg

The mouth of Avondale Creek in Alabama, into which a pipe maker dumped oil, lead and zinc. A court ruling made the waterway exempt from the Clean Water Act.

By CHARLES DUHIGG and JANET ROBERTS
Published: February 28, 2010

Thousands of the nation’s largest water polluters are outside the Clean Water Act’s reach because the Supreme Court has left uncertain which waterways are protected by that law, according to interviews with regulators.

As a result, some businesses are declaring that the law no longer applies to them. And pollution rates are rising.

Companies that have spilled oil, carcinogens and dangerous bacteria into lakes, rivers and other waters are not being prosecuted, according to Environmental Protection Agency regulators working on those cases, who estimate that more than 1,500 major pollution investigations have been discontinued or shelved in the last four years.

The Clean Water Act was intended to end dangerous water pollution by regulating every major polluter. But today, regulators may be unable to prosecute as many as half of the nation’s largest known polluters because officials lack jurisdiction or because proving jurisdiction would be overwhelmingly difficult or time consuming, according to midlevel officials.

“We are, in essence, shutting down our Clean Water programs in some states,” said Douglas F. Mundrick, an E.P.A. lawyer in Atlanta. “This is a huge step backward. When companies figure out the cops can’t operate, they start remembering how much cheaper it is to just dump stuff in a nearby creek.”

“This is a huge deal,” James M. Tierney, the New York State assistant commissioner for water resources, said of the new constraints. “There are whole watersheds that feed into New York’s drinking water supply that are, as of now, unprotected.”

The court rulings causing these problems focused on language in the Clean Water Act that limited it to “the discharge of pollutants into the navigable waters” of the United States. For decades, “navigable waters” was broadly interpreted by regulators to include many large wetlands and streams that connected to major rivers.

But the two decisions suggested that waterways that are entirely within one state, creeks that sometimes go dry, and lakes unconnected to larger water systems may not be “navigable waters” and are therefore not covered by the act — even though pollution from such waterways can make its way into sources of drinking water.

Some argue that such decisions help limit overreaching regulatory efforts.

“There is no doubt in my mind that when Congress passed the Clean Water Act in 1972 they intended it to have broad regulatory reach, but they did not intend it to be unlimited,” said Don Parrish, the American Farm Bureau Federation’s senior director of regulatory relations, who has lobbied on Clean Water issues.

But for E.P.A. and state regulators, the decisions have created widespread uncertainty. The court did not define which waterways are regulated, and judicial districts have interpreted the court’s decisions differently. As regulators have struggled to guess how various courts will rule, some E.P.A. lawyers have established unwritten internal guidelines to avoid cases in which proving jurisdiction is too difficult, according to interviews with more than two dozen current and former E.P.A. officials.

The decisions “reduce E.P.A.’s ability to do what the law intends — to protect water quality, the environment and public health,” wrote Peter S. Silva, the E.P.A.’s assistant administrator for the Office of Water, in response to questions.

About 117 million Americans get their drinking water from sources fed by waters that are vulnerable to exclusion from the Clean Water Act, according to E.P.A. reports.

The E.P.A. said in a statement that it did not automatically concede that any significant water body was outside the authority of the Clean Water Act. “Jurisdictional determinations must be made on a case-by-case basis,” the agency wrote. Officials added that they believed that even many streams that go dry for long periods were within the act’s jurisdiction.

But midlevel E.P.A. officials said that internal studies indicated that as many as 45 percent of major polluters might be either outside regulatory reach or in areas where proving jurisdiction is overwhelmingly difficult.

And even in situations in which regulators believe they still have jurisdiction, companies have delayed cases for years by arguing that the ambiguity precludes prosecution. In some instances, regulators have simply dropped enforcement actions.

In the last two years, some members of Congress have tried to limit the impact of the court decisions by introducing legislation known as the Clean Water Restoration Act. It has been approved by a Senate committee but not yet introduced this session in the House. The legislation tries to resolve these problems by, in part, removing the word “navigable” from the law and restoring regulators’ authority over all waters that were regulated before the Supreme Court decisions.

But a broad coalition of industries has often successfully lobbied to prevent the full Congress from voting on such proposals by telling farmers and small-business owners that the new legislation would permit the government to regulate rain puddles and small ponds and layer new regulations on how they dispose of waste.

“The game plan is to emphasize the scary possibilities,” said one member of the Waters Advocacy Coalition, which has fought the legislation and is supported by the American Farm Bureau Federation, the National Association of Home Builders and other groups representing industries affected by the Clean Water Act.

“If you can get Glenn Beck to say that government storm troopers are going to invade your property, farmers in the Midwest will light up their congressmen’s switchboards,” said the coalition member, who asked not to be identified because he thought his descriptions would anger other coalition participants. Mr. Beck, a conservative commentator on Fox News, spoke at length against the Clean Water Restoration Act in December.

The American Land Rights Association, another organization opposed to legislation, wrote last June that people should “Deluge your senators with calls, faxes and e-mails.” A news release the same month from the American Farm Bureau Federation warned that “even rainwater would be regulated.”

“If you erase the word ‘navigable’ from the law, it erases any limitation on the federal government’s reach,” said Mr. Parrish of the American Farm Bureau Federation. “It could be a gutter, a roadside ditch or a rain puddle. But under the new law, the government gets control over it.”

Legislators say these statements are misleading and intended to create panic.

“These claims just aren’t true,” said Senator Benjamin L. Cardin, Democrat of Maryland. He helped push the bill through the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee. “This bill,” he said, “is solely aimed at restoring the law to what it covered before the Supreme Court decisions.”

The consequences of the Supreme Court decisions are stark. In drier states, some polluters say the act no longer applies to them and are therefore refusing to renew or apply for permits, making it impossible to monitor what they are dumping, say officials.

Cannon Air Force Base near Clovis, N.M., for instance, recently informed E.P.A. officials that it no longer considered itself subject to the act. It dumps wastewater — containing bacteria and human sewage — into a lake on the base.

More than 200 oil spill cases were delayed as of 2008, according to a memorandum written by an E.P.A. official and collected by Congressional investigators. And even as the number of facilities violating the Clean Water Act has steadily increased each year, E.P.A. judicial actions against major polluters have fallen by almost half since the Supreme Court rulings, according to an analysis of E.P.A. data by The New York Times.

The Clean Water Act does not directly deal with drinking water. Rather, it was meant to regulate the polluters that contaminated the waterways that supplied many towns and cities with tap water.

The two Supreme Court decisions at issue — Solid Waste Agency of Northern Cook County v. United States Army Corps of Engineers in 2001 and Rapanos v. United States in 2006 — focused on the federal government’s jurisdiction over various wetlands. In both cases, dissenting justices warned that limiting the power of the federal government would weaken its ability to combat water pollution.

“Cases now are lost because the company is discharging into a stream that flows into a river, rather than the river itself,” said David M. Uhlmann, a law professor at the University of Michigan who led the environmental crimes section of the Justice Department during the last administration.

In 2007, for instance, after a pipe manufacturer in Alabama, a division of McWane Inc., was convicted and fined millions of dollars for dumping oil, lead, zinc and other chemicals into a large creek, an appellate court overturned that conviction and fine, ruling that the Supreme Court precedent exempted the waterway from the Clean Water Act. The company eventually settled by agreeing to pay a smaller amount and submit to probation.

Some E.P.A. officials say solutions beyond the Clean Water Restoration Act are available. They argue that the agency’s chief, Lisa P. Jackson, could issue regulations that seek to clarify jurisdiction of the Clean Water Act.

Mrs. Jackson has urged Congress to resolve these issues. But she has not issued new regulations.

“E.P.A., with our federal partners, emphasized to Congress in a May 2009 letter that legislation is the best way to restore the Clean Water Act’s effectiveness,” wrote Mr. Silva in a statement to The Times. “E.P.A. and the Army Corps of Engineers will continue to implement our water programs to protect the nation’s waters and the environment as effectively as possible, including consideration of administrative actions to restore the scope of waters protected under the Clean Water Act.”

In the meantime, both state and federal regulators say they are prevented from protecting important waterways.

“We need something to fix these gaps,” said Mr. Tierney, the New York official. “The Clean Water Act worked for over 30 years, and we’re at risk of losing that if we can’t get a new law.”

47straight
3/1/2010, 05:43 PM
You do realize it's their job in this case to interpret statutes, not set policy?

Fraggle145
3/1/2010, 06:21 PM
I realize that this sets us back essentially to the 1950's in terms of water policy when you could just dump anything where ever you please...

47straight
3/1/2010, 06:24 PM
Well then by all means ignore what's really in play, throw a tantrum and yell at your parents for being so unfair.

Curly Bill
3/1/2010, 06:50 PM
I'm by no means in favor of water pollution, but I wasn't aware it was the Supreme Court's job to handle that...:confused:

yermom
3/1/2010, 07:51 PM
why the **** would they word that as "navigable waterways"?

AlbqSooner
3/1/2010, 08:46 PM
why the **** would they word that as "navigable waterways"?

Hence the problem pointed out by 47 striaght. The court must base its rulings on the statute before it. When it ignores the language of the statute and tries to determine what policy Congress was attempting to put forth, that is called judicial activism. This can be easily remedied by Congress amending the statute. Easily, except for the fact that Congress can't seem to agree on what day it is unless some lobbying group has provided sufficient incentive.

Boarder
3/1/2010, 09:09 PM
I realize that this sets us back essentially to the 1950's in terms of water policy when you could just dump anything where ever you please...
No, it doesn't. It sets it back to 1970. The navigable waters are still protected.

Looks like they are trying to fix what should be a relatively simple problem:

In the last two years, some members of Congress have tried to limit the impact of the court decisions by introducing legislation known as the Clean Water Restoration Act. It has been approved by a Senate committee but not yet introduced this session in the House. The legislation tries to resolve these problems by, in part, removing the word “navigable” from the law and restoring regulators’ authority over all waters that were regulated before the Supreme Court decisions.

But, here is the real problem:

But a broad coalition of industries has often successfully lobbied to prevent the full Congress from voting on such proposals by telling farmers and small-business owners that the new legislation would permit the government to regulate rain puddles and small ponds and layer new regulations on how they dispose of waste.

Yes, it theoretically could allow them to regulate farm ponds. As they probably should, if they are being dumped into illegally. It probably wouldn't "layer new regulations," though. It may reinstate the old ones or ones that apply to navigable waterways.

Just pass the bill, Congress.

Fraggle145
3/1/2010, 10:44 PM
No, it doesn't. It sets it back to 1970. The navigable waters are still protected.

Looks like they are trying to fix what should be a relatively simple problem:


But, here is the real problem:


Yes, it theoretically could allow them to regulate farm ponds. As they probably should, if they are being dumped into illegally. It probably wouldn't "layer new regulations," though. It may reinstate the old ones or ones that apply to navigable waterways.

Just pass the bill, Congress.

Actually the problem is navigable isnt defined. You can navigate a ****ing rain puddle, cant you?

And I believe what they are saying is because of the debate over the term navigable there are many cases that are not prosecutable even in the"navigable" waterways.

I'm not saying it is the supreme courts job to legislate I am saying they have to pick a definition of navigable and they went with the one that enabled pollution, which is ****ing moronic, IMO.

Its called use some ****ing common sense and realize you are drinking that **** too.

The biggest problem with our government is nobody can use any ****ing common sense.

Fraggle145
3/1/2010, 10:47 PM
What's ****ing with me right now is how everyone is siding with how the government is "working" when I've heard all of you bitch about how bad the government works at least once in the last year...

Fraggle145
3/1/2010, 10:50 PM
No, it doesn't. It sets it back to 1970. The navigable waters are still protected.

And yes it does, because you can now simply just move upstream or to a wetland in the floodplain; a "non-navigable" waterway; that is still connected to the water table and your drinking water.

Boarder
3/1/2010, 11:12 PM
And yes it does, because you can now simply just move upstream or to a wetland in the floodplain; a "non-navigable" waterway; that is still connected to the water table and your drinking water.
I haven't read the decisions, but looks like they are trying to define it:


But the two decisions suggested that waterways that are entirely within one state, creeks that sometimes go dry, and lakes unconnected to larger water systems may not be “navigable waters” and are therefore not covered by the act — even though pollution from such waterways can make its way into sources of drinking water.

And, I am just commenting on the Court's ruling. I can see how they interpreted it that way. However, that doesn't affect the fact that I think it's despicable that we even need such laws because of all of the ********* polluters. I don't side on government at all. I think they should have written it correctly the first time. Now that a flaw has been found, get off your butts and fix it. Define navigable, make it apply to all, whatever. Stop listening to freaking lobbyists whining about their poor mistreated water polluters who'll have nowhere to dump their disease-infested sludge.

Tulsa_Fireman
3/1/2010, 11:14 PM
The minute I see a coal barge move off the McClellan-Kerr up the Deep Fork and park off the sunny shores of Sparks, Oklahoma, I'll bite on your opinion of the term "navigable".

You obviously disagree. No one is saying that's wrong. But lay your blame where it belongs instead of trying to stomp your feet, claiming Salt Creek is a navigable waterway.

Fraggle145
3/2/2010, 08:53 AM
The minute I see a coal barge move off the McClellan-Kerr up the Deep Fork and park off the sunny shores of Sparks, Oklahoma, I'll bite on your opinion of the term "navigable".

You obviously disagree. No one is saying that's wrong. But lay your blame where it belongs instead of trying to stomp your feet, claiming Salt Creek is a navigable waterway.

Can you navigate it?

Crucifax Autumn
3/2/2010, 09:11 AM
Who needs clean water? All these healthy people dring Pepsi anyway, right

Silly, silly business people!

Ardmore_Sooner
3/2/2010, 09:19 AM
I'm not a tree hugger or anything, but why would ANYONE think it's ok to dump their filthy shiz in any body of water?

Crucifax Autumn
3/2/2010, 09:33 AM
No place else to go?

Tulsa_Fireman
3/2/2010, 09:38 AM
Can you navigate it?

Not with any sort of vessel I'm aware of.

If you're considering literally walking up the sand bars as a qualifier for the term "navigable", you're just being silly. To support the argument, we can use multiple sources of the definition of "navigable waterway", this from CFR Title 33, part 329.


Navigable waters of the United States are those waters that are subject to the ebb and flow of the tide and/or are presently used, or have been used in the past, or may be susceptible for use to transport interstate or foreign commerce.

Am I arguing AGAINST clean water? Arguing against legislation keeping a watchful eye on our waterways and the crap that's dumped into them? As a user and lover of wildlife habitats across the state, along with being an avid angler, that's a clear, definite no. But again, trying to drag some personalized version of a clearly established definition of what a navigable waterway is to somehow validate your argument is dishonest at best. And it doesn't focus on the root of the problem, legislative expansion of the CWA or mandate via administrative law for certain federally established standards to be upheld by the states with responsibility of resting on the state.

StoopTroup
3/2/2010, 09:48 AM
I just want to post something with some ****ing *'s in it to show my outrage.

Tulsa_Fireman
3/2/2010, 10:06 AM
Word.

Leroy Lizard
3/2/2010, 02:08 PM
You do realize it's their job in this case to interpret statutes, not set policy?

This.

OklahomaTuba
3/2/2010, 02:52 PM
Yes, how dare some know nothing branch of the federal government have jurisdiction of the mighty EPA.

The EPA is nothing more than the enviro-nazi's version of the SS, and they obviously have important work to do in destroying our liberty.

These brutal thugs will stop at nothing, not even ruining the lives of ethnic minorities (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,552081,00.html), in their quest to expand their control over us in this country.

John Kochtoston
3/2/2010, 04:49 PM
Who needs clean water? All these healthy people dring Pepsi anyway, right

Silly, silly business people!

Not anymore. Brawndo's where it's at, because it has electrolytes.

Tbxq0IDqD04

Okla-homey
3/2/2010, 08:44 PM
****. :eek: :mad:

**** you Supreme Court.

Don't worry you just drink it every day.

Mother****ers.

Frag,

I feel your pain. Honestly. Me likey clean water, and I know that if there aren't regulations barring it, with stiff penalties for the people and corporations who do, folks tend to get rid of waste into the closest flow of water that will take it away.

Don't get me started on this abortion of a lawsuit our inept state AG filed against the chicken-poopers.

That said, EPA is the federal agency with oversight. They need to do a better job of rule-making. This case is ultimately about unclear/ambiguous federal regulations propounded by EPA.

Therefore, you enviro-scientists types need to hire some liberal arts types to help you speak and write in clear, precise terms normal people can understand.

Fraggle145
3/3/2010, 12:14 PM
I think you guys have got me wrong... I dont just hate the supreme court, I hate all of the mother****ers and I blame them all. The fact that none of them have any common sense blows my mind.

Fraggle145
3/3/2010, 12:15 PM
Yes, how dare some know nothing branch of the federal government have jurisdiction of the mighty EPA.

The EPA is nothing more than the enviro-nazi's version of the SS, and they obviously have important work to do in destroying our liberty.

These brutal thugs will stop at nothing, not even ruining the lives of ethnic minorities (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,552081,00.html), in their quest to expand their control over us in this country.

Sounds like you've been drinking something...

47straight
3/3/2010, 02:31 PM
I think you guys have got me wrong... I dont just hate the supreme court, I hate all of the mother****ers and I blame them all. The fact that none of them have any common sense blows my mind.

Tell you what. Here are three things you can do.

1) Write your congressman and ask him to pass legislation giving the EPA broader jurisdiction, including waters that are not legally navigable. If your congressman won't listen, write to congressmen from other states that are in the democratic majority and have actual, present power to pass such legistlation, and, if the scuttlebutt is to be believed, are pro-environment.

2) Write your state reps, senators, and the ODEQ and ask them to help pass regulations that make up whatever is missed by the EPA decisions in Oklahoma. My hunch is that it is zero. A friend who is an environmental engineer at Tinker insists that the ODEQ regulations are actually tougher than the EPA. The states have general police power and can (and in fact) do this sort of stuff without any constitutional issues.

3) Write your President. The article you quoted cited as a main example air force bases that were dumping. Well, the air force has what we call a "commander-in-chief" who, if disobeyed, can send the generals and airmen responsible at the air force bace to prison. That guy's name is Barack Obama and if the scuttlebutt is to believed, he is pro-environment. Write the congressmen on the armed services committee who can make recommendations for the military and, if necessary, withhold money. A majority of these congressmen are democrats who, if the scuttlebutt is to believed, are pro-environment.

All is not lost just because the Supreme Court went nuts and didn't ignore the word "navigable."

Okla-homey
3/3/2010, 02:41 PM
I think you guys have got me wrong... I dont just hate the supreme court, I hate all of the mother****ers and I blame them all. The fact that none of them have any common sense blows my mind.

Common sense has very little to do with it when the issue is interpreting an inartfully drafted, vague or otherwise imprecise federal regulation.

Words, especially words printed on paper in laws and regulations -- matter. In fact, they are really all that matters when a dispute arises over the meaning of a writing*. Unless of course the matter has previously been litigated and there is existing precedent in the form of case law to guide the interpretation.

That's lesson #1 in law skool BTW.

* notable exception; back in the late 40's and into the 50's, the Okie Supreme Court had a couple justices who accepted bribes. When busted, they went to the penitentiary. That problem has been fixed as far as we know.:D

47straight
3/3/2010, 05:33 PM
That's lesson #1 in law skool BTW.
[/SIZE]:D

Not at the Yale School of "Law." :D

Collier11
3/3/2010, 06:05 PM
I just want to post something with some ****ing *'s in it to show my outrage.

LOUD NOISES

Leroy Lizard
3/3/2010, 07:32 PM
All is not lost just because the Supreme Court went nuts and didn't ignore the word "navigable."

Gee, those recommendations sound like they take some work and require persuasion. Wouldn't it be easier to nominate people for the Supreme Court who will carry out our social agendas, regardless of what is written in the Constitution?

Fraggle145
3/4/2010, 02:30 AM
Tell you what. Here are three things you can do.

1) Write your congressman and ask him to pass legislation giving the EPA broader jurisdiction, including waters that are not legally navigable. If your congressman won't listen, write to congressmen from other states that are in the democratic majority and have actual, present power to pass such legistlation, and, if the scuttlebutt is to be believed, are pro-environment.

2) Write your state reps, senators, and the ODEQ and ask them to help pass regulations that make up whatever is missed by the EPA decisions in Oklahoma. My hunch is that it is zero. A friend who is an environmental engineer at Tinker insists that the ODEQ regulations are actually tougher than the EPA. The states have general police power and can (and in fact) do this sort of stuff without any constitutional issues.

3) Write your President. The article you quoted cited as a main example air force bases that were dumping. Well, the air force has what we call a "commander-in-chief" who, if disobeyed, can send the generals and airmen responsible at the air force bace to prison. That guy's name is Barack Obama and if the scuttlebutt is to believed, he is pro-environment. Write the congressmen on the armed services committee who can make recommendations for the military and, if necessary, withhold money. A majority of these congressmen are democrats who, if the scuttlebutt is to believed, are pro-environment.

All is not lost just because the Supreme Court went nuts and didn't ignore the word "navigable."

I have done #1. As you mentioned despite the fact that many of the people of Oklahoma are closet environmentalists noone wants to admit it and our congressman and senators have lets just say, for the most part, a **** poor record when it comes to the environment.

Your friend is right about #2. But I am not just worried about Oklahoma, who is drafting at least an attempt at their own water plan although it ignores any linkages between surface waters and groundwater. In many states however, the Clean water act is their plan. That is it.

And #3, I dont trust anyone given that much power to do anything they dont want to. Seriously. Its fun and all to pretend we have something to do with it. But for the most part, we dont. They get in and they do what they want to do. No amount of bitching on any side is going to change that.

The problem is people like me that actually know a lot about this issue or any issue for that matter cant raise our voices loud enough above the cloud of stupidity and the next cloud of money that runs our country today.

So I guess for now I am stuck with the alternative of sitting on my thumb and spinning...

Leroy Lizard
3/4/2010, 02:56 AM
In many states however, the Clean water act is their plan. That is it.

Then the citizens of those states can demand new laws to protect drinking water. They don't need the Feds intervening.

Now, in situations where water from one state can contaminate another's water, that would maybe be different.

Fraggle145
3/4/2010, 03:17 AM
Then the citizens of those states can demand new laws to protect drinking water. They don't need the Feds intervening.

Now, in situations where water from one state can contaminate another's water, that would maybe be different.

Most citizens are completely uninformed about what is coming out of the tap. They turn it on and expect it to come out without realizing just how much it is worth to have clean water on demand at any time. Hence the rage with bottled water, which on the whole is more expensive, more wasteful, and less healthy than what actually comes out of the tap!

As for #2, the majority of major waterways and water supplies from one state enter another, or share a border with another etc... in one form or another. think about just the dispute over the water in the Red River and its watershed, between OK and TX. Water supply is a federal issue. It isnt something that cna be easily handled by one state or another. The waters in many states are mixed between watersheds via transfers and all other sorts of things. It just isnt something that is as cut and dry as this is only in your state.

The management of water resources is an effing ****mess when it comes to politics, need, ecology and everything else. And yet, we still have been doing a pretty good job when compared with other countries, largely due to the Clean Water Act.

Okla-homey
3/4/2010, 07:16 AM
The management of water resources is an effing ****mess when it comes to politics, need, ecology and everything else. And yet, we still have been doing a pretty good job when compared with other countries, largely due to the Clean Water Act.

pfft. As long as we have access to chlorine or other bacteria killing chemicals, we can have safe drinking water. Heck, worst case, we can pasteurize it first, like milk. It's not like people actually drink water from drinking fountains or water faucets anymore anyway. ;)

Fraggle145
3/4/2010, 09:29 AM
pfft. As long as we have access to chlorine or other bacteria killing chemicals, we can have safe drinking water. Heck, worst case, we can pasteurize it first, like milk. It's not like people actually drink water from drinking fountains or water faucets anymore anyway. ;)

That isnt everything that is in the drinking water and you know it! All the hormones and the majority of chemicals that we use in our food supply dont get broken down even under tertiary water treatment. This includes stuff like estrogen in birth control. And think about the amount of extra energy it would take to pasteurize water! :eek:

Okla-homey
3/4/2010, 10:11 AM
That isnt everything that is in the drinking water and you know it! All the hormones and the majority of chemicals that we use in our food supply dont get broken down even under tertiary water treatment. This includes stuff like estrogen in birth control. And think about the amount of extra energy it would take to pasteurize water! :eek:

Good point. I read somewhere that 40 years plus of wimmens on birth controil pills peeing into the watershed may someday sterilize all wimmen who drink tapwater. Ditto all the meds people take nowadays. Only a tiny part of the meds we take stays inside...the rest gets peed away. And that pee, eventually, ends up in our aquifiers. I call it, "The Circle of Wipe."

Fraggle145
3/4/2010, 10:35 AM
Good point. I read somewhere that 40 years plus of wimmens on birth controil pills peeing into the watershed may someday sterilize all wimmen who drink tapwater. Ditto all the meds people take nowadays. Only a tiny part of the meds we take stays inside...the rest gets peed away. And that pee, eventually, ends up in our aquifiers. I call it, "The Circle of Wipe."

And it gets recirculated in our water supply. Think about the effects estrogen on males! We've been seeing an increase in male fertility problems (granted they are more reported now, but still). It has been shown to feminize male fish, including the loss of genitalia and the development of female secondary sexual characters. And we come from fish (in a round about sort of way) so it is likely if it has an effect on them it will have one on us.

NormanPride
3/4/2010, 11:28 AM
Are there any filtration methods that can clear that stuff out?

Fraggle145
3/4/2010, 03:58 PM
Are there any filtration methods that can clear that stuff out?

Sure, bioreactors can remove it. The problem is monitoring for it since methods to do this are not cheap. Some processes remove it better than others. It just basically takes time for something to process it and break it down. And it can take a long time to get all of it. Water coming from the tap that goes through a bioreactor can remove a large portion of it, so we are probably getting trace amounts at this point. But you have to remember you probably got a lot of hormones from the meat you've been eating your whole life etc... People are bigger nowadays, likely because of a combination of better nutrition and more exposure to hormones!

Half a Hundred
3/4/2010, 04:37 PM
I have done #1. As you mentioned despite the fact that many of the people of Oklahoma are closet environmentalists noone wants to admit it and our congressman and senators have lets just say, for the most part, a **** poor record when it comes to the environment.

Your friend is right about #2. But I am not just worried about Oklahoma, who is drafting at least an attempt at their own water plan although it ignores any linkages between surface waters and groundwater. In many states however, the Clean water act is their plan. That is it.

And #3, I dont trust anyone given that much power to do anything they dont want to. Seriously. Its fun and all to pretend we have something to do with it. But for the most part, we dont. They get in and they do what they want to do. No amount of bitching on any side is going to change that.

The problem is people like me that actually know a lot about this issue or any issue for that matter cant raise our voices loud enough above the cloud of stupidity and the next cloud of money that runs our country today.

So I guess for now I am stuck with the alternative of sitting on my thumb and spinning...

You forgot #4 - despair because John Roberts will find some way to overturn the law for not sucking enough corporate cawk.

This is the worst Supreme Court since Taney.

sooner59
3/4/2010, 05:33 PM
I was going to comment in this thread but Fraggle basically brought up most of the issues that I am versed in as far as estrogen and estrogen mimics, as well as the other pharmaceutical chemicals that get by. And you can look at what it is doing to frogs and fish to see how good for you it is.

Basically, if you want to keep up the increases in rates of weird cancers, lupus, and any other disorder that the environment (in this case water) plays a part in, then by all means, just get lax on what gets in the water. Sorry I just took a graduate course at OUHSC in Environmental Health, I have taken a trip to the Norman water treatment plant and spoken with them over what they actually do, and my mother has Lupus. So I see the web of connections.

TUSooner
3/4/2010, 05:54 PM
You do realize it's their job in this case to interpret statutes, not set policy?

It sounds like they ARE interpreting the word "navigable" in the statute. Congress could fix that. But the current batch of Republicans are probably going to claim that water pollution is just another myth concocted by the left to justify Big Gubment intervention against God-fearing capitalists. :rolleyes:

Glenn Beck needs to drink from some of the newly "liberated" waterways.

47straight
3/4/2010, 09:08 PM
It sounds like they ARE interpreting the word "navigable" in the statute. Congress could fix that. But the current batch of Republicans are probably going to claim that water pollution is just another myth concocted by the left to justify Big Gubment intervention against God-fearing capitalists. :rolleyes:

Glenn Beck needs to drink from some of the newly "liberated" waterways.

So what if the current batch of Republicans claim its a commie plot? Last I saw they didn't have the Senate, House, or the Presidency. Why not yell at the democrats to be worth their environmental credentials and pass/sign it? If we can't get anything else out of a democrat regime, why can't we at least get pro-environment laws? Glenn Beck doesn't even hold office!

Fraggle145
3/10/2010, 11:44 AM
So I did I little bit more digging on this issue... here is an editorial article from 2006 in Science, on this decision.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/313/5790/1019


Science 25 August 2006:
Vol. 313. no. 5790, p. 1019
DOI: 10.1126/science.1132934

Editorial
What's a Wetland, Anyhow?
Donald Kennedy1 and Brooks Hanson2

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/vol313/issue5790/images/small/1019-3-thumb.gif

Anyone interested in water and environmental science should study the U.S. Supreme Court's opinion--or, more precisely, its three rather different opinions--in the recent case called Rapanos vs. United States. Don't tune out if you're in Asia, Europe, or elsewhere, because this is NOT merely a domestic issue! Water quality is critical internationally, improvements in water quality have been a major source of global public health benefits (see the special section, p. 1067), and U.S. regulatory approaches are sometimes copied elsewhere.

Here's what the Court was facing. The Clean Water Act mandates that the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers issue regulations defining what fits under the act's umbrella term "waters of the United States." The Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit had upheld federal jurisdiction over Michigan wetlands in Rapanos, finding that there were hydrologic connections between the site and nearby ditches and drains, and thence to navigable waters. Defendants appealed to the Supreme Court, which issued its opinions on 19 June 2006.

The Court's fundamental split will surprise few. Justice Scalia, representing the views of Roberts, Alito, Thomas, and himself, offered a very restrictive definition of wetlands: They must have surface connections to navigable waters. That view would have stripped regulatory protection from lands historically treated as wetlands by the Corps of Engineers. On the other side, Justice Stevens, for Souter, Ginsberg, and Breyer, favored a definition that includes groundwater with a significant nexus of connection to more distant navigable waters. Justice Kennedy wrote the decisive opinion, in effect bouncing the matter back to the appellate court. His position favored the "significant nexus" view, adding that the determination would essentially be a scientific matter, within the proper scope of the regulatory agency's authority. That leaves the matter approximately where it was, but the tone of the opinions is revealing with respect to the depth and tenor of the disagreement on the Court.

There are jabs and needles everywhere. Stevens said that Scalia's opinion "disregards its own obligation to interpret laws rather than make them." The Chief Justice's separate opinion criticized the Corps for failing to issue regulatory revisions after an earlier Court decision, saying that it had an "essentially boundless view of the scope of its power." Scalia, in what reads like a dissenting opinion, said that the Stevens definition of wetlands was "beyond parody." Ouch.

This case also signals how different justices might apply science as a guide to decision-making. "Beyond parody" might also fit Scalia's effort to define terms used in hydrology. His search for commonplace labels as proxies for scientific definitions must have left his copy of Webster's Dictionary dog-eared from overuse; the text cites it over and over again. His opinion shows no awareness of what hydrologic investigations have demonstrated about the interconnectedness of ground and surface waters. Neither is there any suggestion that groundwater moves (it does) or that it regularly feeds surface streams or lakes, often keeping these waters flowing between rainstorms. The essential message is: "If you can't see it, it doesn't matter."

There is a missing precedent here. An earlier Supreme Court case, Borden Ranch and Tsakopoulos vs. U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, ended in a 4-4 tie, thereby letting stand a decision that fined Tsakopoulos for a plowing technique that the government said would damage the underlying wetland. Ironically, Kennedy had recused himself because he knew Tsakopoulos. Given his views in Rapanos, he would likely have sided with the government, creating a precedent that might have moved the Court not to hear Rapanos.

Two take-home lessons seem clear. First, Kennedy is knowledgeable about environmental science; Scalia has little knowledge or perhaps only little interest. Second, despite the meager opportunity for direct scientific input to the Court, concerned scientists could help federal agencies work out realistic scientific standards for defining a "significant nexus" and get those into the Code of Federal Regulations. They might also be useful in the next big case, when the Court will decide whether carbon dioxide is a pollutant under the Clean Air Act. Perhaps they could give the justices something more scientifically helpful than Webster.

10.1126/science.1132934

1Donald Kennedy is the Editor-in-Chief of Science.

2Brooks Hanson is Deputy Editor for physical sciences at Science.