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View Full Version : wacky ideas - outlawing unions from the public sector



jkm, the stolen pifwafwi
2/23/2010, 12:29 PM
i'm kind of a strange conservative in that i'm pro-union in the private sector. companies in the private sector are driven at a macro level by profit and at a micro level by managerial income. the profit is the key balancing term though, if the company is in the red, they are eventually going to go under (assuming not "to big to fail"). so there is an overwhelming force to not just lowball employees, but to bind them into contracts that make it impossible for them to leave so that they can lowball them further.

unions, in my view, tend to be a check on that process by standing up for the workforce and minimizing corporate greed. they also give employees a secondary outlet about work conditions, company corner cutting that can potentially go unheard in a non-union environment.

these pioneering areas by unions tend to trickle down to other types of employees over time (worker rights, overtime rules, child labor, etc). unfortunately for the workers, their isn't a check on the union's greed, so a lot of times the union ends up being shortsighted and doing more harm than good. not unusual when you deal with people who don't actually produce anything :(

i'd actually also argue that the private sector would benefit from more worker advocasy groups (call them union lite), that could take over a lot of jacked up processes within companies - things like whistleblower hotlines that almost always are answered by admiral ackbar on the other end especially for underage workers (http://www.ocregister.com/news/moore-230812-starbucks-records.html )

now what does this have to do with public sector workers unions?

well, its pretty simple - what motivates a government to keep wages down? it isn't like if they have a deficit they are going to go under and fire everyone. they are just going to either borrow money or raise taxes on their population to get back to zero.

so what ends up happening is that public sector unions end up getting 10x the sweetheart deal for their employees than private sector unions.

this is a fox opinion source so take it with a grain of salt

http://www.thefoxnation.com/business/2010/02/09/government-workers-make-45-more-private-sector-employees

whether its 45% or 10%, it doesn't matter - the deck is severely stacked on the side of those who collectively bargain. so they take advantage of it on both ends (current wage vs retirement). they can and do stack it even further in their favor by pouring millions into the coffers of candidates that will give them still further sweetheart deals.

and therein lies why this process is broken, they can give one person a million bucks who then spreads the resultant 100 million on the backs of 3-10 million taxpayers.

tommieharris91
2/23/2010, 12:45 PM
What motivates gov't to keep wages down is public unrest over deficits (and Amendment XXVII, but that doesn't seem pertinent to this). The people don't like to be taxed, and (at least in the Federal government) the executive and the legislators know that they will receive scrutiny for raising wages of lower-level workers. This is what keeps the public unions in check.

The TPD was forced to lay off officers because of shortfalls in the Tulsa budget. It's not like the Fraternal Order of Police wasn't involved in this decision, either. They understood that the people that union serves we're either going to be underpaid or lose jobs during bargaining, so the City of Tulsa bit the bullet and laid off officers.

Or, you can do what the State of Oklahoma did and ban strikes against the state government. ;)

Throw in the glaring conflict with Amendment I and you can understand how wacky this is.

TheHumanAlphabet
2/23/2010, 12:46 PM
Uhmm, France, UK and all of Europe have unionized gov't. employees. I don't think they are models of efficiency and service. Same for many States gov't jobs.

Mjcpr
2/23/2010, 01:02 PM
well, its pretty simple - what motivates a government to keep wages down? it isn't like if they have a deficit they are going to go under and fire everyone. they are just going to either borrow money or raise taxes on their population to get back to zero.

They will implement layoffs and/or wage reductions. Municipally speaking at least, they must have a balanced budget and cannot incur a deficit. Nor can they implement new taxes without a vote of the people. Borrowed money cannot be used for operations, such as salaries.

1890MilesToNorman
2/23/2010, 01:18 PM
You want to see first hand how unions can screw the public just check out the Big Dig in Boston. What a public cluster **** that was.

jkm, the stolen pifwafwi
2/23/2010, 01:33 PM
They will implement layoffs and/or wage reductions. Municipally speaking at least, they must have a balanced budget and cannot incur a deficit. Nor can they implement new taxes without a vote of the people. Borrowed money cannot be used for operations, such as salaries.

actually this isn't true across the country, for example new jersey, who borrowed heavily for everything.

in washington, they just voted a monster pay raise for our state workers before the elections. because they couldn't pay for it they suspended the raise, they then took the state to court. after the recession got worse, they dropped their lawsuit because of public backlash. they are talking tax increases, not massive layoffs of state personnel.

my point isn't that this is a good idea, or one that could ever make the light of day, it is more does it make sense given the nature of the public sector.

Mjcpr
2/23/2010, 01:44 PM
Those are states, I said municipally speaking since that is where the local services are provided....such as police and fire.

jkm, the stolen pifwafwi
2/23/2010, 02:04 PM
Those are states, I said municipally speaking since that is where the local services are provided....such as police and fire.

understood.

yermom
2/23/2010, 02:44 PM
they need to disband that congressional union :mad:

OklahomaTuba
2/24/2010, 11:22 AM
Speaking of the public sector unions...

What union bosses think

Oops. An Albany cop-union boss just let the protect-and-serve mask slip.
Albany Police Officers Union President Chris Mesley says that, regardless of the faltering economy, a no-raise new contract is unacceptable. And to hell with the public.
"I'm not running a popularity contest here," Mesley said. "If I'm the bad guy to the average citizen . . . and their taxes have go up to cover my raise, I'm very sorry about that, but I have to look out for myself and my membership."
Mesley added: "As the president of the local, I will not accept 'zeroes.' If that means . . . ticking off some taxpayers, then so be it."
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/editorials/what_union_bosses_think_Em4qoD4qx9ei7QLeYk8v6I#ixz z0gTGzAYGi

I'd love for someone to tell me exactly what a public sector union has done for us besides keep teacher pay low, keep crappy and otherwise unemployable people in BS government jobs, destroy our public schools, burden us with their pensions we can't afford and basically ruin our inner cities, taxing our companies overseas and drive this country into bankruptcy????

And some people want to hand these very same folks our healthcare system.

Unbelievable.

yermom
2/24/2010, 11:41 AM
i liked this one:

http://www.projo.com/education/content/central_falls_teachers.1_02-13-10_A8HEI7Q_v61.3a65218.html


After learning of the union’s position, School Supt. Frances Gallo notified the state that she was switching to an alternative she was hoping to avoid: firing the entire staff at Central Falls High School. In total, about 100 teachers, administrators and assistants will lose their jobs.


The conditions are adding 25 minutes to the school day, providing tutoring on a rotating schedule before and after school, eating lunch with students once a week, submitting to more rigorous evaluations, attending weekly after-school planning sessions with other teachers and participating in two weeks of training in the summer.

how dare they ;)

NormanPride
2/24/2010, 11:56 AM
On this rare occasion, I agree with the superintendent. As hard as it is to justify that kind of action, if the union is unwilling to make the changes it has to for an under-performing school then this is the kind of action the superintendent has to make. The fact of the matter is, regardless of how hard it is to teach the students, results are what the job is graded on. If your results are sub-par then changes need to be made. If you are unwilling to make changes, then you get fired.

The article mentions that they can hire back up to 50 of the 100 that they are firing. This means that any good teachers that spend time with students and get good results can be retained. That makes me feel better.

yermom
2/24/2010, 12:03 PM
that doesn't seem like near enough of a concession to lose your job over.

http://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-unionized-rhode-island-teachers-refuse-to-work-25-minutes-more-per-day-so-town-fires-all-of-them-2010-2

from this link they were making $70k+

my sympathy is waning even further ;)

NormanPride
2/24/2010, 12:15 PM
Yeah, the union called what they thought was a bluff, and failed miserably.