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Okla-homey
2/20/2010, 06:34 PM
is they don't act. They just talk. And swill overpriced coffee while lamenting the fascists.

Bear with me. In the early part of the last century, US liberals who supported the Russian Revolution went to Russia, shouldered a weapon, and fought the czarist forces. Not all of them, but a substantial number.

In the 1930's, US liberals who opposed the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War, went to Spain, shouldered a weapon, and fought the Republicans. In fact, by 1936, you could look high and low in NYC and hardly find a US liberal because they were all in Spain.

Fast forward to today. US liberals put a "Free Tibet" bumper sticker on their Prius, but don't give a second thought to actually traveling to Tibet to fight the Chinese.

What gives? Who stole the spine and resolve of US liberals?

discuss.
:pop:

StoopTroup
2/20/2010, 06:55 PM
I think even the Folgers we buy in the grocery store is to expensive so I guess I really am a moderate leaning towards conservative. Guess I'll go sip some hot tea now. :D

GottaHavePride
2/20/2010, 07:00 PM
I think even the Folgers we buy in the grocery store is to expensive so I guess I really am a moderate leaning towards conservative. Guess I'll go sip some hot tea now. :D

Tea crops were bad the last year or two, so prices have skyrocketed. Joke fail. ;)

StoopTroup
2/20/2010, 07:08 PM
Hell...I've seen the price of Tea functions too. Maybe it is best to just go to Starbucks and hang out. :D

Joke win. ;)

LosAngelesSooner
2/20/2010, 07:14 PM
The problem with "r"epublicans right now is that Glenn Beck is the keynote speaker at CPAC, RIGHT NOW. On FNC. (http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140063)

Veritas
2/20/2010, 07:17 PM
The problem with "r"epublicans right now is that Glenn Beck is the keynote speaker at CPAC, RIGHT NOW. On FNC. (http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140063)
^^^ This.

soonerloyal
2/20/2010, 07:22 PM
You know, if I hadn't just lost my grandmother, after losing my best friend and my mother all due to substandard or no health care because they're not rich, even though they worked their arses off their whole lives, I'd be happy to rake this over the proverbial coals and get into an argument...but frankly, I don't have the heart. But feel free to regale me with the GOP absolute bravo sierra about the evils of socialized medicine and caring for our fellow man some other time, okay? Good to go.

But yeah, if they had the balls I do, they'd be ramming this shat right up the Con wazoo with no lube or reacharound, with my blessing.

King Crimson
2/20/2010, 08:18 PM
so, Franco is a "republican" now?

talk about bad history.

StoopTroup
2/20/2010, 08:35 PM
Thank goodness Glenn didn't die the last time he had surgery or America would never recover.

LosAngelesSooner
2/20/2010, 08:38 PM
so, Franco is a "republican" now?

talk about bad history.
So was Jesus. And George Washington. And Thomas Jefferson. Didn't you know?

The current "r"epublicans are like Mormons...going around baptizing people into their party after they die regardless of how they really lived their lives.

StoopTroup
2/20/2010, 08:40 PM
Well...at least they are baptizing them. They'd still be liberals without being baptized.

Leroy Lizard
2/20/2010, 08:49 PM
So was Jesus. And George Washington. And Thomas Jefferson. Didn't you know?

The current "r"epublicans are like Mormons...going around baptizing people into their party after they die regardless of how they really lived their lives.

King Crimson's comment went right over your head. Franco fought the Republicans (and kicked their butt).

King Crimson
2/20/2010, 09:02 PM
naw. i think LA Sooner got it.

LosAngelesSooner
2/20/2010, 09:14 PM
I usually do.

Fortunately a shot of Penicillin usually clears it right up.

SoonerInKCMO
2/20/2010, 10:01 PM
I only drink the free coffee at work.

C&CDean
2/20/2010, 10:25 PM
You know, if I hadn't just lost my grandmother, after losing my best friend and my mother all due to substandard or no health care because they're not rich, even though they worked their arses off their whole lives, I'd be happy to rake this over the proverbial coals and get into an argument...but frankly, I don't have the heart. But feel free to regale me with the GOP absolute bravo sierra about the evils of socialized medicine and caring for our fellow man some other time, okay? Good to go.

But yeah, if they had the balls I do, they'd be ramming this shat right up the Con wazoo with no lube or reacharound, with my blessing.

Without trying to be ugly, might I suggest that your grandfather, your best friend's husband, and your father go cop a non-union job and carry decent health insurance? I mean if they're laying around relying on the government tit, good luck with that. Just sayin'.

My pop died, and all my grandkids are being born under insurance plans that are bought and paid for, and are all quite comprehensive and groovy. And your caramel colored lord and saviour didn't have a gatdamn thing to do with any of it.

C&CDean
2/20/2010, 10:26 PM
And did I mention my folks ain't rich either?

yermom
2/20/2010, 10:34 PM
well, hopefully they never get sick, and lose their jobs or get dropped by their insurance companies

XingTheRubicon
2/20/2010, 10:36 PM
You know, if I hadn't just lost my grandmother, after losing my best friend and my mother all due to substandard or no health care because they're not rich, even though they worked their arses off their whole lives, I'd be happy to rake this over the proverbial coals and get into an argument...but frankly, I don't have the heart. But feel free to regale me with the GOP absolute bravo sierra about the evils of socialized medicine and caring for our fellow man some other time, okay? Good to go.

But yeah, if they had the balls I do, they'd be ramming this shat right up the Con wazoo with no lube or reacharound, with my blessing.

Sorry for your misfortune.

C&CDean
2/20/2010, 10:45 PM
well, hopefully they never get sick, and lose their jobs or get dropped by their insurance companies

Huh? My dad never made it past E-****ing 7 in the military. Then the county for 20-something years. If you get dropped, you move on. You don't sit around and whine because the system ****ed you. You nut up and pay your way. Sorry, but my sympathy switch for people who don't take care of their business is broken.

You got fired? Move on. You got laid off? suck it up. It's the American ****ing way. Unfortunately, whining about how bad you've got it has become the new American way...

StoopTroup
2/20/2010, 10:55 PM
I guess that after working and paying taxes for over 33 years of my adult life I should look forward to nutting up once I have 43 years of paying into a system that uses our taxes to better the wealthy.

C&CDean
2/20/2010, 11:01 PM
Yeah, I guess so?

Mjcpr
2/20/2010, 11:06 PM
I've been on pretty much every side of the issue. My mom has health care from her fed gov't employer and pays dearly for her long term care insurance so she will be well taken care of from now on, my grandma was kind of middle of the pack...worked and paid her whole life, but didn't have a lot of money...she ended up in a nursing home that was certainly nothing fancy but was what she could afford because she had to pay every dime of it...my dad had a brain tumor and was given surgery, but we never paid a dime because he didn't have a cent to his name but I was under no illusion that he received the best care money could buy.

If it was possible for all Americans to receive the best care available because everyone contributed to that, it's hard to argue that would be a bad thing.

soonerloyal
2/20/2010, 11:06 PM
Oh, neverfarkingmind that my grandmother, mother and best friend outlived and outworked their male counterparts and still got fvcked over by the current system even though they did what thay are supposed to yet still managed to get screwed.

Screw the plain old, holier-than-thou tude...these patriotic Americans, who sent their husbands, sons, daughters, selves, grandkids into service of country, yet still got failed by the system - deserve better. Save the platitudes for someone who unthinkingly sucks what they are fed by the teat. We ain't buying it.

C&CDean
2/20/2010, 11:16 PM
Let's see, my grandma and my mother outlived their spouses too. My pop sucked it up and paid for my grandma's long-term healthcare. It was tough on crappy military and waitress pay, but they managed.

My mother had to pay $7K a month for the past year and a half for my dad's nursing care. My mom and dad never made more than $45K a year in their whole ****ing life. Mom had the $$ to pay it, and furthermore, had long-term insurance they paid for when they couldn't afford it to help out.

Some Americans are raised to suck it up. Some are raised to suck from the system, and when the system lets them down, they whine like they didn't get something they deserved. If it's so bad, have them move to a socialist medicine country like England. One of my dad's best friends is now on his 27th month waiting for a knee replacement. No ****ing thanks.

soonerloyal
2/20/2010, 11:18 PM
Yeah, tell that crap to my combat-vet sons who can ill afford to go to the doctor even though they paid not just THEIR dues, but the dues of their loved ones they swore to defend and protect. Peddle to them that lame, empty argument about why they or their loved ones don't merit health care. "Suck it up, dudes". I'm sure they'll buy it.

C&CDean
2/20/2010, 11:20 PM
Do your "combat vet sons" whine as much as you?

I'm hoping they let you do it for them. Geez.

Mjcpr
2/20/2010, 11:26 PM
Let's see, my grandma and my mother outlived their spouses too. My pop sucked it up and paid for my grandma's long-term healthcare. It was tough on crappy military and waitress pay, but they managed.

My mother had to pay $7K a month for the past year and a half for my dad's nursing care. My mom and dad never made more than $45K a year in their whole ****ing life. Mom had the $$ to pay it, and furthermore, had long-term insurance they paid for when they couldn't afford it to help out.

Some Americans are raised to suck it up. Some are raised to suck from the system, and when the system lets them down, they whine like they didn't get something they deserved. If it's so bad, have them move to a socialist medicine country like England. One of my dad's best friends is now on his 27th month waiting for a knee replacement. No ****ing thanks.

Yeah, we paid it too and my family has never been rich either.

But what's wrong if it costs all of us $100 (I made this up, I have no idea) a year to be able to provide equal health care for everyone? Maybe my grandma would've had actual care at the end and not just some guy who checked on her when he felt like it and maybe my dad could've lived a little bit longer or survived if he could afford it? Why is that such a bad thing? I'm not saying Obama's plan is the best but don't just hate universal health care because the democratic president is for it, maybe universal health care can benefit everyone.

StoopTroup
2/20/2010, 11:27 PM
Yeah, I guess so?

Thanks. I feel better now....

My nuts hurt though. Weird. lol

StoopTroup
2/20/2010, 11:30 PM
If it's so bad, have them move to a socialist medicine country like England. One of my dad's best friends is now on his 27th month waiting for a knee replacement. No ****ing thanks.

Couldn't he just nut up and come to America and pay for it?

Leroy Lizard
2/20/2010, 11:31 PM
I might change my mind on universal health care under a few conditions:

1. If you're not a U.S. citizen, you're not getting it.

2. If you entered our country illegally and had a kid, your kid isn't getting it either.

3. Let me choose my doctor.

Until then, no way.

yermom
2/20/2010, 11:33 PM
we need to ****-can the whole "born here, you're a citizen" crap anyway

C&CDean
2/20/2010, 11:36 PM
Couldn't he just nut up and come to America and pay for it?

No, because unlike us, he's also on a socialist retirement deal that doesn't allow him to do ****.

To be honest, my mom has offered to pay for his surgery over here. He won't do it because he doesn't trust the "John Wayne orthopaedic boys on this side of the pond." Seriously.

StoopTroup
2/20/2010, 11:37 PM
What about the folks who think they might have been brought here on a spaceship?

StoopTroup
2/20/2010, 11:39 PM
No, because unlike us, he's also on a socialist retirement deal that doesn't allow him to do ****.

To be honest, my mom has offered to pay for his surgery over here. He won't do it because he doesn't trust the "John Wayne orthopaedic boys on this side of the pond." Seriously.

I figured it was probably something like that but isn't that kind of the same thing as not having insurance and waiting for someone to eventually help you out? That's why the rest of us are paying high premiums anyway.

Leroy Lizard
2/20/2010, 11:39 PM
we need to ****-can the whole "born here, you're a citizen" crap anyway

Absolutely. It sounded good at the time I suppose. Sucks now.

Mjcpr
2/20/2010, 11:39 PM
Just out of curiosity, how would your mom be in a position to pay for such a thing if she just paid $7k a month for a year and a half for your father but they never made more than $45k a year during their life?

yermom
2/20/2010, 11:42 PM
Absolutely. It sounded good at the time I suppose. Sucks now.

well, it started for the slaves, but now you might as well give the parents permanent residency or something while you're at it

C&CDean
2/20/2010, 11:50 PM
Just out of curiosity, how would your mom be in a position to pay for such a thing if she just paid $7k a month for a year and a half for your father but they never made more than $45k a year during their life?

Simple. Mom still lives in the brand-new 1200 SF house they bought in 1962 for $9,850. I remember mom and dad kneeling by the bed at night praying to God to give them the $97 a month they needed to pay the mortgage. They sacrificed, saved, invested, and did without. They paid their house off in 1975, and put every dime they made into the bank. None of us kids expected (or asked for) a free college education. Dad said "sure you can go to school - on your dime." He never bought any of us kids a car or paid for insurance or anything else. He taught us from a very young age to fend for ourselves. When times got tough (like when I got divorced from my first wife) they helped out big time, but it was expected that they would get reimbursed - and they were for every ****ing penny.

Mom did get a little windfall when an old man she cared for through the Salvation Army kicked the bucket and left her some money, but instead of spending it, mom invested it and let it ride.

It's amazing what you can do on $45K a year (which was their very best year) with a little discipline and self-control. If you ask mom why they ended up so well off after all those years she says "because I always gave our first 10% to God."

Mom could buy and sell most of us on this board right now simply through frugality and careful/safe investing over a 60-70 year period.

Stitch Face
2/20/2010, 11:53 PM
Just out of curiosity, how would your mom be in a position to pay for such a thing if she just paid $7k a month for a year and a half for your father but they never made more than $45k a year during their life?

Maybe they lived on less than $45K a year and saved the annual surplus over a long period of time. I read a story one time about how people would do this in olde-timey days.

Stitch Face
2/20/2010, 11:53 PM
Oops, Dean beat me to it.

Mjcpr
2/20/2010, 11:57 PM
Simple. Mom still lives in the brand-new 1200 SF house they bought in 1962 for $9,850. I remember mom and dad kneeling by the bed at night praying to God to give them the $97 a month they needed to pay the mortgage. They sacrificed, saved, invested, and did without. They paid their house off in 1975, and put every dime they made into the bank. None of us kids expected (or asked for) a free college education. Dad said "sure you can go to school - on your dime." He never bought any of us kids a car or paid for insurance or anything else. He taught us from a very young age to fend for ourselves. When times got tough (like when I got divorced from my first wife) they helped out big time, but it was expected that they would get reimbursed - and they were for every ****ing penny.

Mom did get a little windfall when an old man she cared for through the Salvation Army kicked the bucket and left her some money, but instead of spending it, mom invested it and let it ride.

It's amazing what you can do on $45K a year (which was their very best year) with a little discipline and self-control. If you ask mom why they ended up so well off after all those years she says "because I always gave our first 10% to God."

Mom could buy and sell most of us on this board right now simply through frugality and careful/safe investing over a 60-70 year period.

Yeah, I agree that all of that's possible, Dean. Sounds like the story of my family over the years too. Unfortunately, not everyone has their work ethic. I happen to think a national health care system would benefit a lot of folks that wouldn't have it otherwise. I don't know if your parents' path is still possible these days though. My grandparents bought a little house and scrimped and saved and did without but you couldn't live off of a neighborhood grocery store income like they did.

I dunno...It's a whole new game today. Just seems to me that healthcare for all is something that this country should strive for.

Mjcpr
2/20/2010, 11:59 PM
Maybe they lived on less than $45K a year and saved the annual surplus over a long period of time. I read a story one time about how people would do this in olde-timey days.

Yeah, I know all about that. I also know that at $7k a year, the savings those folks, like my grandparents, achieved will disappear in a hurry in this day and age.

Stitch Face
2/21/2010, 12:13 AM
Just seems to me that healthcare for all is something that this country should strive for.

Something we should strive for? Absolutely. Like, maybe when this country gets its embarrassing, ridiculous finances in order.

But an ever-increasing number of people seem to think expensive, high-tech health care is an inalienable right that someone damn well better show up on our doorstep with and give to us all.

Stitch Face
2/21/2010, 12:15 AM
"But passing the health care bill will fix our financial problems!" :rolleyes:

Mjcpr
2/21/2010, 12:19 AM
Something we should strive for? Absolutely. Like, maybe when this country gets its embarrassing, ridiculous finances in order.

But an ever-increasing number of people seem to think expensive, high-tech health care is an inalienable right that someone damn well better show up on our doorstep with and give to us all.

Probably couldn't have afforded WWII either....should we have done that?

C&CDean
2/21/2010, 12:20 AM
Yeah, I agree that all of that's possible, Dean. Sounds like the story of my family over the years too. Unfortunately, not everyone has their work ethic. I happen to think a national health care system would benefit a lot of folks that wouldn't have it otherwise. I don't know if your parents' path is still possible these days though. My grandparents bought a little house and scrimped and saved and did without but you couldn't live off of a neighborhood grocery store income like they did.

I dunno...It's a whole new game today. Just seems to me that healthcare for all is something that this country should strive for.

True enough. Nowadays people want brand new homes, new cars, satellite TV in every room, internet, flashy vacations, and all the bells and whistles. They buy it all on credit. They can afford a cell phone, ipod, tattoos, gym membership, new car, and blinged-out teef, by they can't pay a health insurance premium. **** em' I say.

C&CDean
2/21/2010, 12:21 AM
And just so it's clear Pat, socialized medicine is the ****s my brother. You don't want it.

Mjcpr
2/21/2010, 12:25 AM
I know, but I want the citizens to have it available. I have mines...I just think something should be available for everyone else.

Stitch Face
2/21/2010, 12:29 AM
Probably couldn't have afforded WWII either....should we have done that?

We paid off WWII, my friend. At this point no one has any idea how to keep Medicare and Social Security solvent, much less fund a new universal health care entitlement.

In 1945 the nation's debt could be paid off with a few years of robust economic growth. At this point it will be decades before we're in the black even if the country scraps Obamacare, cuts Medicare and SS benefits, raises taxes, and eats Ramen noodles every night.

GrapevineSooner
2/21/2010, 12:30 AM
Something we should strive for? Absolutely. Like, maybe when this country gets its embarrassing, ridiculous finances in order.

But an ever-increasing number of people seem to think expensive, high-tech health care is an inalienable right that someone damn well better show up on our doorstep with and give to us all.

Or they think socialized medicine is the magic bullet to cure all of our ills, without any regard to the new kinds of issues it could create.

Or any regard to the fact that when government starts to take over an industry, service gets worse and it's a helluva lot more inefficient.

Take Amtrak as a prime example.

Personally, I think this is a good starting point (http://www.thenextright.com/jon-henke/republican-health-care-reform-ideas#comments):


The GOP needs a much more comprehensive approach to entitlements in general, not just health care. At this point, I think we need to do one of two things: Either....
Government as a Last Resort - Government can insure everybody (http://www.thenextright.com/jon-henke/republican-health-care-reform?page=1) for any yearly expenses over 20% of annual income, which completely eliminates the problem of unbearable costs, both for consumers and for insurers (and which ought to dramatically lower insurance costs, since the potential risk is far smaller). That shouldn't have a major distortive effect on the market, either, because most catastrophic costs tend to be things about which we can't/don't often make good cost/benefit calculations. This would also eliminate the need for Medicare/Medicaid, since this would automatically cover people who have little/no income. While there are undoubtedly problems with this, it seems on the whole better than a system that gets government involved at much lower decision and cost levels. Or...
Government as a Safety Net - Restructure our entitlement system along the lines of what (if I recall correctly) Milton Friedman and Charles Murray have recommended: expand the EITC to cover basic costs of living on a means-tested basis, so we can predicate entitlements upon actual need, rather than blanket distribution. In either case, I think you have a pretty strong, compelling message: Government should provide a safety net, not a straitjacket. We are not going to let people fail completely, but safety nets should not catch people who do not fall.

Stitch Face
2/21/2010, 12:38 AM
Agreed. Instead of everyone paying exorbitant taxes in an impossible attempt to subsidize each other the middle class and "comfortably well off" should take care of themselves and pay a small amount to provide charity care/retirement safety nets for the poor.

Paul Ryan's plan is the best long-term solution on paper right now, but it will scare people because it involves making one's own economic decisions about some things. But it also caps taxes at 15-25% and gets us in the black (after several decades) according to the CBO.

Leroy Lizard
2/21/2010, 12:43 AM
Safety nets shouldn't capture those that jump.

Stitch Face
2/21/2010, 12:46 AM
Safety nets shouldn't capture those that jump.

Agreed in theory. But the problem is it's too hard to tell (especially for a gov't bureaucracy) who's hit hard times and who's a lazy/spendthrift dbag.

JLEW1818
2/21/2010, 12:53 AM
eliminate the worthless and we have a republican nation

simple

Curly Bill
2/21/2010, 01:02 AM
eliminate the worthless and we have a republican nation

simple

Eliminate the worthless in this country and we'd cut our population down about 2/3rds. :P

Veritas
2/21/2010, 01:16 AM
It's amazing what you can do on $45K a year (which was their very best year) with a little discipline and self-control.
But Dean, if you exercise discipline and self-control you'll never have a new house, new cars, big TVs, fancy vacations and all that other stuff that must be so much more important to people than health care since that's where their money goes.

EDIT: I missed the page of posts the already stated this sentiment.

LosAngelesSooner
2/21/2010, 01:21 AM
LOL You guys crack me up. I guess all those other amazing western countries I've traveled to were filled with sick, miserable and dying people. They just didn't know it. Poor saps...with their universal health care. They just don't realize how horrible their lives really are. :rolleyes:

LosAngelesSooner
2/21/2010, 01:22 AM
BTW, Dean...it's funny how you don't realize just how many holes there are in your little familial example. Freakin' cracking me up here...:D

JLEW1818
2/21/2010, 01:23 AM
LAS just let me know when your worthless state falls into the pacific... take the terminator with u... what a joke of life

LosAngelesSooner
2/21/2010, 01:25 AM
Oh, Dolemite...you never cease to amuse...

JLEW1818
2/21/2010, 01:26 AM
'Hasta la vista, baby'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Curly Bill
2/21/2010, 01:46 AM
LOL You guys crack me up. I guess all those other amazing western countries I've traveled to were filled with sick, miserable and dying people. They just didn't know it. Poor saps...with their universal health care. They just don't realize how horrible their lives really are. :rolleyes:


...yeah, and their really low taxes...;)

Leroy Lizard
2/21/2010, 03:43 AM
LOL You guys crack me up. I guess all those other amazing western countries I've traveled to were filled with sick, miserable and dying people. They just didn't know it. Poor saps...with their universal health care.

So which country's health care system are you advocating?

soonerloyal
2/21/2010, 07:34 AM
Do your "combat vet sons" whine as much as you?

I'm hoping they let you do it for them. Geez.

You betcha. I'm the Whine Steward for the whole freaking clan. Good at it, ain't I? :)

Okla-homey
2/21/2010, 08:18 AM
so, Franco is a "republican" now?

talk about bad history.

Sorry, that is a prime example of why its bad to post while drunk. You are of course correct in pointing out my mistake. What I intended to say of course, was US liberals went to Spain in great numbers to fight the nationalists.

The republicans of course, were the side US liberals went to assist.

I would add now, in the calm, sober light of morning, American corporations Texaco, GM, Ford, and The Firestone Tire and Rubber Company greatly assisted the Nationalist army with their constant supply of trucks, tires, machine tools, and fuel.:D

But again, why don't US liberals walk their talk anymore?

Okla-homey
2/21/2010, 08:28 AM
LOL You guys crack me up. I guess all those other amazing western countries I've traveled to were filled with sick, miserable and dying people. They just didn't know it. Poor saps...with their universal health care. They just don't realize how horrible their lives really are. :rolleyes:

Like I've posted time and again when western nations and their wunnerful governmnet healthcare are tossed out, that model simply won't work in a nation as big as ours. We have well over 300 million folks...that we know about. And a substantial percentage of that >300 million don't pay a dime in taxes.

None of these western countries with government provided healthcare to all have anywhere near as many folks as us, and their populations are much more concentrated.

I also suspect their docs don't make the kind of money US docs make.

See this story about a young Tulsa oral surgeon who dropped $1.2 million to add a basketball court to his house:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/article.aspx?subjectid=29&articleid=20100219_93_B1_LloydH629459&archive=yes

Crucifax Autumn
2/21/2010, 09:27 AM
Sounds like an overpaid doosh to me, quite honestly.

King Crimson
2/21/2010, 10:05 AM
Sorry, that is a prime example of why its bad to post while drunk. You are of course correct in pointing out my mistake. What I intended to say of course, was US liberals went to Spain in great numbers to fight the nationalists.

The republicans of course, were the side US liberals went to assist.

I would add now, in the calm, sober light of morning, American corporations Texaco, GM, Ford, and The Firestone Tire and Rubber Company greatly assisted the Nationalist army with their constant supply of trucks, tires, machine tools, and fuel.:D

But again, why don't US liberals walk their talk anymore?

american corporations don't exactly have a great history of siding with democracy or open government when it comes to most things. not sure you want Franco on "your side" unless you want to come clean about the violent oppression of free speech, dictatorship, and the cruel suppression of dissidence and support of Italian fascism back in the day....that maybe you secretly desire. kidding. which is part of the answer to your question.

WTO protests in Seattle? lot of anti-globalization protests (though the "philosophy" here is a bit misguided). maybe not in Tulsa, but there is a big world out there.

one of the more interesting things about the "hate on Obama" movement is the re-discovery of dissent that was anathema and "anti-americanism" in 02-03. those Bill of Rights were pesky in 02 but, hoo boy, that 2nd amendment is holy enough now....

C&CDean
2/21/2010, 10:52 AM
BTW, Dean...it's funny how you don't realize just how many holes there are in your little familial example. Freakin' cracking me up here...:D

I'm always happy to provide a chuckle for the ignorant masses.

Go ahead. Shoot some holes in it.

My folks sacrificed for decades so they could be secure in their older age, and provide a little somethin' somethin' for their kids after they're gone. When dad had his mother move in with us, then to a nursing home where she lasted into her late 80's with Alzheimers - all on SS and a small American Motors retirement she got from her husband (needless to say, pop had to pay the difference) - he said "I will not do this to you kids." He didn't.

Him and mom bought long-term health insurance, life insurance, paid for their funerals including headstones, caskets, and some extra money to pay the preacher. They continued to save every dime they could for the things the security blankets they bought wouldn't cover. Dad used to carry salami sandwiches and a thermos of coffee to work every day and mom worked nights after us kids went to bed waitressing for drunks in a 24-hour greasy spoon. Oftentimes her entire night's tips barely covered us kids' lunch money the next day. I remember her coming home and counting out a quarter and a nickel for each of us - the nickel was for the milk. She'd get a little sleep, then go waitress at a different restaurant for the lunch rush.

We had the same Rambler Ambassador station wagon for 15 years. Dad had a 1961 Chevy pickup that he had for 25 years. When us kids all left home, they began to be able to save in earnest. In their later years, they travelled some (several trips to Bermuda, UK, and even did a big Eastern Bloc tour right after they opened it all up). A couple trips to the Holy Land so dad could get baptized in the River Jordan (a lifelong goal of his).

Yes, my folks did without a lot of things. We never even had AC on the house when I grew up. In Tucson. They couldn't afford it. Our vacations consisted of going camping in the mountains up by Prescott. I could count on both hands the number of times I ate at a Burger Chef or McDonalds before I left home. We didn't know the difference, so it didn't bother us.

In the past 20 or so years my folks have sponsored a student a year in the Salvation Army at some college they have up in Canada. Full ride. I could go on and on, but I hope you get the picture.

And I really didn't tell the WHOLE truth about their income. While it's true they never broke the $45K figure from their jobs, they far exceeded this number in later years on interest earnings on their savings. What'd they do with it? Reinvest.

I know, most Americans just aren't willing to sacrifice. Instead they complain about how America has let them down. Meh.

XingTheRubicon
2/21/2010, 11:33 AM
long stories about personal accountability make no sense to a liberal.

Crucifax Autumn
2/21/2010, 11:38 AM
Yep...I'm just a moderate, but a nice "read it by the campfire" bedtime story is what cranks my shaft.

Leroy Lizard
2/21/2010, 11:43 AM
american corporations don't exactly have a great history of siding with democracy or open government when it comes to most things. not sure you want Franco on "your side" unless you want to come clean about the violent oppression of free speech, dictatorship, and the cruel suppression of dissidence and support of Italian fascism back in the day....that maybe you secretly desire. kidding. which is part of the answer to your question.

As opposed to the Communists? The Republicans would have stood a better chance if they hadn't shot so many of their own troops. (A real nasty habit of Communists.) To a certain extent, we are lucky the Nationalists won, because the Republicans would simply have provided Stalin a toehold in Spain. And the oppression would have been just as insufferable and the government a lot more incompetent.


We had the same Rambler Ambassador station wagon for 15 years. Dad had a 1961 Chevy pickup that he had for 25 years. When us kids all left home, they began to be able to save in earnest. In their later years, they travelled some (several trips to Bermuda, UK, and even did a big Eastern Bloc tour right after they opened it all up). A couple trips to the Holy Land so dad could get baptized in the River Jordan (a lifelong goal of his).

That's not the way to do it, C&C. Let me explain.

First of all, your dad needed to take his extra money and buy some spinner rims for that Rambler. Get a good pumpin' stereo system installed as well. Then, if he had anything left how about the latest cell phone? Some tattoos would be nice. For your mom too.

Then, when times get bad, your parents can hold their hand out the U.S. gub'mint.

Crucifax Autumn
2/21/2010, 11:57 AM
I'm glad I don't have a single tat or spinner rims.

Stitch Face
2/21/2010, 12:06 PM
I'm glad I don't have a single tat or spinner rims.

I do, but they were inherited from my Grandpa when he died last year.

Leroy Lizard
2/21/2010, 12:07 PM
You inherited his tattoos?

Interesting. Very interesting.

Stitch Face
2/21/2010, 12:12 PM
You inherited his tattoos?

Interesting. Very interesting.

Yep. I'm that frugal.

Collier11
2/21/2010, 01:06 PM
I might change my mind on universal health care under a few conditions:

1. If you're not a U.S. citizen, you're not getting it.

2. If you entered our country illegally and had a kid, your kid isn't getting it either.

3. Let me choose my doctor.

Until then, no way.

that sh*t will never happen. We are a handout country, unless we are using those handouts to help our own, then we dont give a sh*t

JohnnyMack
2/21/2010, 02:56 PM
that sh*t will never happen. We are a handout country, unless we are using those handouts to help our own, then we dont give a sh*t

The argument could be made that FDR set us on the road to ruin with his efforts.

Curly Bill
2/21/2010, 03:17 PM
The argument could be made that FDR set us on the road to ruin with his efforts.

I don't particularly disagree with that.

Veritas
2/21/2010, 03:29 PM
Veritas has many times made the argument could be made that FDR set us on the road to ruin with his efforts.
FTFY. :D

soonerscuba
2/21/2010, 04:46 PM
But again, why don't US liberals walk their talk anymore?Same reason Republicans don't send themselves or their children to wars they authorize, it's dangerous and the abstract concept of sacrafice is best left to the serfs.

Leroy Lizard
2/21/2010, 06:47 PM
The argument could be made that FDR set us on the road to ruin with his efforts.

Where's the argument?

Leroy Lizard
2/21/2010, 06:48 PM
Same reason Republicans don't send themselves or their children to wars they authorize, it's dangerous and the abstract concept of sacrafice is best left to the serfs.


Does anyone have any pics of JFK bombing the Ho Chi Minh Trail with Agent Orange?

StoopTroup
2/21/2010, 08:22 PM
Same reason Republicans don't send themselves or their children to wars they authorize, it's dangerous and the abstract concept of sacrafice is best left to the serfs.

Glenn Becks kids are to young to test just how much he loves America. You're right though....when Bush sent Troops to War there sure were a lot of hypocrites in office.

Okla-homey
2/21/2010, 08:28 PM
Same reason Republicans don't send themselves or their children to wars they authorize, it's dangerous and the abstract concept of sacrafice is best left to the serfs.

At least 80% of the current United States military officer corps, regardless of branch, are registered Republicans. How is that not walking the talk?

Stitch Face
2/21/2010, 08:36 PM
At least 80% of the current United States military officer corps, regardless of branch, are registered Republicans. How is that not walking the talk?

What I was thinking. Most servicemen/women are republicans and they come from, mostly likely, republican parents.

yermom
2/21/2010, 08:47 PM
At least 80% of the current United States military officer corps, regardless of branch, are registered Republicans. How is that not walking the talk?

and this has what to do with walking the talk of being a Republican? are they out fighting for small government around the world?

Leroy Lizard
2/21/2010, 08:59 PM
It's asinine to think that a 60-year-old man is going to put on a pith helmet, grab a saber, and charge San Juan Hill.

Interesting blurb on LBJ, courtesy of Wiki:


MacArthur awarded Johnson the Silver Star, the military's third-highest medal, although it is notable that no other members of the flight crew were awarded medals, and it is unclear what Johnson could have done in his role purely as an "observer" to deserve the medal, even if his aircraft had seen combat. Johnson's biographer, Robert Caro, stated, "The most you can say about Lyndon Johnson and his Silver Star is that it is surely one of the most undeserved Silver Stars in history, because if you accept everything that he said, he was still in action for no more than 13 minutes and only as an observer. Men who flew many missions, brave men, never got a Silver Star."

What did LBJ do to deserve a medal? He was a close confidant of FDR. In a way, he was our version of Hermann Goering (although Goering had a distinguished WWI record).

StoopTroup
2/21/2010, 09:06 PM
I won't disagree with you Homey...I mean it was a Republican President that sent them to War too. They were all behind his decision too.

My comments were more for the elected officials that had a lot to say but didn't have their kids serving. Many of them didn't even want to be interviewed about it as they knew their kids weren't going to sacrifice or they weren't going to push for them to join. Whatever some of their reasons were...they looked very hypocritical when approached about it. My kids of course are to young to be affected but I think if you feel going to War is the right thing to do...you shouldn't flinch when it's your kids heading that way.

Leroy Lizard
2/21/2010, 09:24 PM
So you send your own kids in harm's way to prove a point?

I would answer the media's questions very simply: I cannot have my own kids serve because I don't make those decisions for them. The war is either the right thing to do, or it isn't. The decision on whether we should go to war doesn't hinge on my own kids' decisions on whether they want to join the armed forces.

The whole "sacrifice your own kids" line of thought is truly asinine. How did it even get started and why do people still fall for it?

Collier11
2/21/2010, 10:19 PM
Maybe you shouldnt be able to be elected a senator or Congressman unless you have served, the kids argument is silly

SanJoaquinSooner
2/21/2010, 10:22 PM
At least 80% of the current United States military officer corps, regardless of branch, are registered Republicans. How is that not walking the talk?


What I was thinking. Most servicemen/women are republicans and they come from, mostly likely, republican parents.


Why are enlistees excluded from the statistic?

But it is amazing that 80% of military officer corps are registered pubs...that probably means over 90% are registered to vote. Incredible.

LosAngelesSooner
2/21/2010, 10:30 PM
I'm always happy to provide a chuckle for the ignorant masses.

Go ahead. Shoot some holes in it.

My folks sacrificed for decades so they could be secure in their older age, and provide a little somethin' somethin' for their kids after they're gone. When dad had his mother move in with us, then to a nursing home where she lasted into her late 80's with Alzheimers - all on SS and a small American Motors retirement she got from her husband (needless to say, pop had to pay the difference) - he said "I will not do this to you kids." He didn't.

Him and mom bought long-term health insurance, life insurance, paid for their funerals including headstones, caskets, and some extra money to pay the preacher. They continued to save every dime they could for the things the security blankets they bought wouldn't cover. Dad used to carry salami sandwiches and a thermos of coffee to work every day and mom worked nights after us kids went to bed waitressing for drunks in a 24-hour greasy spoon. Oftentimes her entire night's tips barely covered us kids' lunch money the next day. I remember her coming home and counting out a quarter and a nickel for each of us - the nickel was for the milk. She'd get a little sleep, then go waitress at a different restaurant for the lunch rush.

We had the same Rambler Ambassador station wagon for 15 years. Dad had a 1961 Chevy pickup that he had for 25 years. When us kids all left home, they began to be able to save in earnest. In their later years, they travelled some (several trips to Bermuda, UK, and even did a big Eastern Bloc tour right after they opened it all up). A couple trips to the Holy Land so dad could get baptized in the River Jordan (a lifelong goal of his).

Yes, my folks did without a lot of things. We never even had AC on the house when I grew up. In Tucson. They couldn't afford it. Our vacations consisted of going camping in the mountains up by Prescott. I could count on both hands the number of times I ate at a Burger Chef or McDonalds before I left home. We didn't know the difference, so it didn't bother us.

In the past 20 or so years my folks have sponsored a student a year in the Salvation Army at some college they have up in Canada. Full ride. I could go on and on, but I hope you get the picture.

And I really didn't tell the WHOLE truth about their income. While it's true they never broke the $45K figure from their jobs, they far exceeded this number in later years on interest earnings on their savings. What'd they do with it? Reinvest.

I know, most Americans just aren't willing to sacrifice. Instead they complain about how America has let them down. Meh.Yeah. Like I said (and your post just completely reinforced) your example, while touching and genuinely nice to hear about, is all full of holes when you try to apply it to a) today's dynamics and b) everyone in America as if everyone could do the same.

'nuff said.

Oh, and to be very clear, I am in NO way deriding your family in any way, nor am I questioning the honesty of your story.

JLEW1818
2/21/2010, 10:35 PM
eat ****

Leroy Lizard
2/21/2010, 10:42 PM
Today's dynamics? What do you mean by that?

Collier11
2/21/2010, 10:43 PM
a vague statement that doesnt mean anything :D

soonerscuba
2/21/2010, 10:44 PM
At least 80% of the current United States military officer corps, regardless of branch, are registered Republicans. How is that not walking the talk?Immaterial. You asked why liberals don't walk the talk regarding going to fight for far off causes, the answer is that modern Americans (both Republicans and Democrats) have a much greater sense of entitlement, and they are simply afraid.

I don't think that service is required to be a good C-in-C, but I have my doubts if Iraq specifically would have happened if those in charge of authorization had an actual stake in the outcome, and once again, the Dems could have stopped it and lacked the spine to do so.

Okla-homey
2/22/2010, 06:53 AM
see below


Why are enlistees excluded from the statistic?

Because I never talked politics with enlisted folks because it was inappopriate, although I suspect their numbers would be close to the officer stats. However, we do knpw, ethnicity plays a big role too. Folks from ethnic groups who generally always vote donk no matter the candidate continued to do so in service.

But it is amazing that 80% of military officer corps are registered pubs...that probably means over 90% are registered to vote. Incredible. Which is why donks tend to fear those absentee ballots from GI's

C&CDean
2/22/2010, 09:42 AM
Jeez LAS, you just can't ever say "you know what, I was wrong" can you?

This is going on in "today's dynamics" (whatever the **** that is). If you mean all the young folks are selfish little ****wads with the satisfy me right now mentality and don't possess an ounce of discipline or common sense then I agree completely. However, you can still do it in America if you wish. But that would mean no ipod for a while, no cell phone, driving a beater, doing without a lot of niceties for a few years - heaven forbid the horror.

Now am I as frugal and disciplined as my folks? Oh hells no, but I am a lot better off than most folks. Their example has allowed me to slowly build a comfortable situation where I'll be able to retire in 2 years, 5 months, 9 days, and 7 hours from right now. At age 55. I'll never draw Social Security (I don't pay into it), and I won't need it. In fact, the way I've set some things up, my income will actually increase when I retire. Yes, it's taken some discipline and a lot of hard work, but it's not impossible.

Crucifax Autumn
2/22/2010, 10:09 AM
I say if he says he's wrong he's a pansy that can't stick to his principles. ;)

badger
2/22/2010, 12:12 PM
First, in the name of full disclosure, I am a registered Republican and have been since turning 18. I would be a registered independent, but we all know that Oklahoma's closed primaries mean that the only way we vote for anybody is to be a Republican in registration only.

That said, this is not a problem that is limited to liberals. I wish more people got involved in local political parties, local elections, and just got up off their butt and voted in more elections. Unfortunately, too many people are content to complain about issues (kind of like we're doing now, eh?) and not working toward solutions.

If you're in Tulsa, vote on March 2 on the school bond issue, dammit.

OklahomaTuba
2/22/2010, 12:23 PM
the Dems could have stopped it and lacked the spine to do so.kinda hard to stop something when you push for it and then vote for it.

And now try to take credit for it after the fact.

LosAngelesSooner
2/22/2010, 02:41 PM
Jeez LAS, you just can't ever say "you know what, I was wrong" can you?

This is going on in "today's dynamics" (whatever the **** that is). If you mean all the young folks are selfish little ****wads with the satisfy me right now mentality and don't possess an ounce of discipline or common sense then I agree completely. However, you can still do it in America if you wish. But that would mean no ipod for a while, no cell phone, driving a beater, doing without a lot of niceties for a few years - heaven forbid the horror.

Now am I as frugal and disciplined as my folks? Oh hells no, but I am a lot better off than most folks. Their example has allowed me to slowly build a comfortable situation where I'll be able to retire in 2 years, 5 months, 9 days, and 7 hours from right now. At age 55. I'll never draw Social Security (I don't pay into it), and I won't need it. In fact, the way I've set some things up, my income will actually increase when I retire. Yes, it's taken some discipline and a lot of hard work, but it's not impossible.I have never had a problem saying I was wrong when I have been. In fact, I'd wager a thousand dollars that I've admitted when I was wrong on this board far more often than you have.

The fact is, in this case, I'm not.

And the fact that you don't understand what I meant by "today's dynamics" is no surprise. Obviously you don't because you really feel that your "feel good" story is applicable today. It isn't. Not even close. But it makes you feel all "justified" and right to tell it, so keep on and more power to ya.

NormanPride
2/22/2010, 03:17 PM
LAS, why couldn't you apply the same tactics they used to run your personal finances now? I do, and it has been successful for me.

Dean, I'd love to know what your parents did later in life to invest the money they had been saving. I know nothing about investing, so it's all just sitting in a bank account right now.

Leroy Lizard
2/22/2010, 03:32 PM
And the fact that you don't understand what I meant by "today's dynamics" is no surprise. Obviously you don't because you really feel that your "feel good" story is applicable today. It isn't. Not even close. But it makes you feel all "justified" and right to tell it, so keep on and more power to ya.

So you don't know what you meant when you said "today's dynamics" either. Okay.

Collier11
2/22/2010, 03:40 PM
skirting the topic

LosAngelesSooner
2/22/2010, 03:47 PM
So you don't know what you meant when you said "today's dynamics" either. Okay.:rolleyes:

Jesus, dude. Take an economics class. This is freakin' BASIC economics we're talking about now. To try and use a paradigm from the 50's-90's and apply it to TODAY'S economic dynamics is impossible. They simply aren't the same worlds.

So, yeah...I DO know what I mean when I say today's dynamics. Just because you don't understand it and want to try and make it as simple as "don't buy Ipods, drive a clunker and save ya young idgets!" because that type of "homey wisdom" makes you feel smart and vindicated DOESN'T make it true...at all.

Collier11
2/22/2010, 03:51 PM
The issue at hand LAS is that you are saying that in no way could that model work in todays climate, I disagree...it has been proven to work so I just like some others obviously want to see what your exact point is, maybe we just arent on the same page

Leroy Lizard
2/22/2010, 04:03 PM
Jesus, dude. Take an economics class. This is freakin' BASIC economics we're talking about now. To try and use a paradigm from the 50's-90's and apply it to TODAY'S economic dynamics is impossible. They simply aren't the same worlds.

So, yeah...I DO know what I mean when I say today's dynamics. Just because you don't understand it and want to try and make it as simple as "don't buy Ipods, drive a clunker and save ya young idgets!" because that type of "homey wisdom" makes you feel smart and vindicated DOESN'T make it true...at all.

Try as you might, it is obvious you can't explain what you meant by "today's dynamics."

Unless you mean that the purchasing of spinner rims is somehow a necessity today. Is there something about our current economy that would necessitate the squandering of money on frivolity?

soonerhubs
2/22/2010, 04:11 PM
Just some clarification from a crazy Mormon:

LAS, are you saying that life style wouldn't work at all, or that it's not sufficient? I can buy the not sufficient for some, but I struggle with the not sufficient for most or all.

Dean, I'm assuming that you're not suggesting everyone will come out on top, because there will always be accidents, unfortunate events, etc. I would suggest that if more people DID save, more people would be better off, but at the same time there will always be poor folks who we need to support, love, and help.

From the Bible:
Matt 26:11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

NormanPride
2/22/2010, 04:13 PM
Yeah, the scale may be different, but the policies are sound. Don't buy crap that you don't need, use the stuff you have until you can't use it anymore, and save as much as you can.

soonerhubs
2/22/2010, 04:14 PM
Yeah, the scale may be different, but the policies are sound. Don't buy crap that you don't need, use the stuff you have until you can't use it anymore, and save as much as you can.

Fix it up,
Wear it out,
Make it do,
or do without.

I like it!

Collier11
2/22/2010, 04:20 PM
I can say firsthand because of the way some of my friends live compared to me that saving is the best way. Now Im not the most fiscally conservative 28 year old alive, I still go to concerts, bars, as many football games as possible, trips, etc... The diff between myself and some of my friends is that my bills are paid and anything like a trip I save for months, I dont just pull that money out of my savings or out of my paycheck, I put it aside seperately

LosAngelesSooner
2/22/2010, 04:29 PM
Try as you might, it is obvious you can't explain what you meant by "today's dynamics."

Unless you mean that the purchasing of spinner rims is somehow a necessity today. Is there something about our current economy that would necessitate the squandering of money on frivolity?You sir, as proven by this post, are a maroon.


Just some clarification from a crazy Mormon:

LAS, are you saying that life style wouldn't work at all, or that it's not sufficient? I can buy the not sufficient for some, but I struggle with the not sufficient for most or all.
Insufficient. That is exactly what I'm saying. Saving, budgeting, going without are all GOOD THINGS that many people have forgotten and should re-learn.

That said, when you factor in inflation, flatlining of wages, the skyrocketing cost of health care, the skyrocketing cost of health insurance premiums (which are far outpacing even our own inflation), the flatlining of savings interest rates, the struggle going on in the market which is heavily influencing 401K's, etc, the underemployment of our nation vs. the rising cost of living...the dynamic which worked during the booms of the 80's and 90's when the market was stronger and the costs were all lower ALL meant that you COULD save more. Now, as if evidenced by the lack of total personal savings growth, etc, it is simply NOT possible.

Then you factor in what would have happened if someone WAS barely getting by using this paradigm and then they were injured, got sick, etc (things which Dean's family THANKFULLY didn't deal with)...and you have to add in a massive LOSS of income compounded by a massive ADDED EXPENDITURE in health care costs...and that's IF they health care insurance provider chooses not to "pre-existing clause" them out of coverage.

Obviously this is an oversimplification of the scenarios I'm describing...but you guys wanted to understand what I'm getting at more...that's what I'm getting at. In general.

Dean's story is a "damn skippy feel good, do better" story, sure...but it is unrealistic for the majority of Americans in today's economic dynamic.

LosAngelesSooner
2/22/2010, 04:31 PM
Oh, and I spit in the eye of anyone who claims that ALL Americans should go without and just work their butts off every day of their lives while they drive a clunker and live in a dirt floored shack with no vacations or fun until they can retire at 65 and finally live a little.

That's just absolute, total Bull****. Guys...it's not "one extreme or the other." There IS a happy medium of smart budgeting, saving and also having a little bit of fun in life.

Collier11
2/22/2010, 04:32 PM
There IS a happy medium of smart budgeting, saving and also having a little bit of fun in life.

This I agree with whole-heartedly as this is the way I live my life, although I could stand to save a little more than I do :D

NormanPride
2/22/2010, 04:51 PM
Oh, and I spit in the eye of anyone who claims that ALL Americans should go without and just work their butts off every day of their lives while they drive a clunker and live in a dirt floored shack with no vacations or fun until they can retire at 65 and finally live a little.

That's just absolute, total Bull****. Guys...it's not "one extreme or the other." There IS a happy medium of smart budgeting, saving and also having a little bit of fun in life.

No doubt, and I'm with Collier on this as well. I could do much more saving.

But many of the US's financial woes would lessen significantly if people wouldn't put themselves in crappy situations. If we saved and didn't need the handouts as much, the burden would lessen and I think prices would go down with taxes.

Leroy Lizard
2/22/2010, 04:57 PM
You sir, as proven by this post, are a maroon.

Insult all you like, it is obvious that your reference to "today's dynamics" is a completely empty statement.

LosAngelesSooner
2/22/2010, 05:02 PM
Insult all you like, it is obvious that your reference to "today's dynamics" is a completely empty statement.^^^ This...proves I did not "insult," but that I "accurately described."

Leroy Lizard
2/22/2010, 05:03 PM
You couldn't accurately describe your own ***.

LosAngelesSooner
2/22/2010, 05:04 PM
No doubt, and I'm with Collier on this as well. I could do much more saving.

But many of the US's financial woes would lessen significantly if people wouldn't put themselves in crappy situations. If we saved and didn't need the handouts as much, the burden would lessen and I think prices would go down with taxes.Sure. To a point. But until there is actual financial and health care reform, it wouldn't make much of a dent. The bigger problems would continue.

There are BIG changes that need to happen (ala regulation on Wall street and total health care reform) before any type or real change is possible.

LosAngelesSooner
2/22/2010, 05:05 PM
You couldn't accurately describe your own ***.Sure I could. Let me give it a try: It's a typical "bubble butt," round, firm, a little too pale even for a white boy and significantly more attractive than your face.

Now...if you need me to go back and dumb my explanation about the dynamic down even further so it will meet your quite obvious 3rd grade reading level, just ask...and I'll be sure to do so.

Collier11
2/22/2010, 05:11 PM
Come on LAS, his blocked out word wasnt azz, it was tit

LosAngelesSooner
2/22/2010, 05:12 PM
My tits are also round, exceedingly firm and, unfortunately again, far too white for even a white boy. :D

yermom
2/22/2010, 05:15 PM
You sir, as proven by this post, are a maroon.


Insufficient. That is exactly what I'm saying. Saving, budgeting, going without are all GOOD THINGS that many people have forgotten and should re-learn.

That said, when you factor in inflation, flatlining of wages, the skyrocketing cost of health care, the skyrocketing cost of health insurance premiums (which are far outpacing even our own inflation), the flatlining of savings interest rates, the struggle going on in the market which is heavily influencing 401K's, etc, the underemployment of our nation vs. the rising cost of living...the dynamic which worked during the booms of the 80's and 90's when the market was stronger and the costs were all lower ALL meant that you COULD save more. Now, as if evidenced by the lack of total personal savings growth, etc, it is simply NOT possible.

Then you factor in what would have happened if someone WAS barely getting by using this paradigm and then they were injured, got sick, etc (things which Dean's family THANKFULLY didn't deal with)...and you have to add in a massive LOSS of income compounded by a massive ADDED EXPENDITURE in health care costs...and that's IF they health care insurance provider chooses not to "pre-existing clause" them out of coverage.

Obviously this is an oversimplification of the scenarios I'm describing...but you guys wanted to understand what I'm getting at more...that's what I'm getting at. In general.

Dean's story is a "damn skippy feel good, do better" story, sure...but it is unrealistic for the majority of Americans in today's economic dynamic.

the majority of Americans is the only part of this i disagree with.

i think most people can work harder and save more and be successful at the end, but that model isn't universal due to the situations described. working harder doesn't help you once you are sick/disabled and draining all of the money out of your children's/parents' household

JohnnyMack
2/22/2010, 05:16 PM
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s106/Lord_Xalen/ufail.jpg

NormanPride
2/22/2010, 05:16 PM
Comedy gold. :D

And I'd be happy with a healthcare solution that just prevented people from being financially ruined by it. Government interest-free loans to help people pay off huge debts, or something like that. I think that's the biggest change between now and back when Dean's parents were saving away.

C&CDean
2/23/2010, 10:32 AM
Now that dad is gone, mom is still "saving away." And like I told in my "damn skippy yada yada feel good" story they spent a lot of years enjoying their security too.

The major difference between my folks and the average stupid American LAS thinks everyone is can be explained best by the statement some ER doc in Florida made. I can't remember it verbatim, but it went something like this:

"We don't have a health care issue, we have a cultural issue. Today I treated a young lady in the ER. She had platinum on her teeth, gold chains, rings, and bracelets on every finger and both arms, obviously very expensive and extensive tattoo work all over her large body, an ipod, and a fancy cell phone. Then, she reached in her wallet and pulled out her Access card. If she just took all the money she spent on gold, platinum, tattoos, cell phones and other electronic devices, etc. she could afford the best health care available. So, it's not a healthcare issue, it's a cultural issue."

LAS is partially right. The "dynamic" exists, it's just a dynamic of sloth, selfishness, and ignorance. It has nothing to do with how much a person can control their financial well-being in today's climate.

There's a poster on this board who many of you have chastised over his financial opinions - who could buy and sell you 10-times over. He owns a lot of property - free & clear, gold, silver, and many other attractive and stable assets. He's done this while raising 3 kids, one who is currently in pre-med at OU. He has never made a ton of money on an annual basis, but he is frugal and wise. He is 5 days younger than me. He's doing this in "today's dynamic."

Leroy Lizard
2/23/2010, 10:42 AM
Part of the problem is the access to easy credit, which causes people to go out and buy crap they can't really afford. Credit was much tougher to come by when I was a kid and so we didn't have a lot of junk. A tv here, a radio there. And we managed to somehow make it through the day without a cell phone. Or video games. Or tattoos.

NormanPride
2/23/2010, 10:56 AM
I agree that credit is way too easy to obtain. Anyone got any insight into what changed? Regulations? Laws? Or did the companies just dream up something that would make them rich again?

Leroy Lizard
2/23/2010, 11:38 AM
A friend told me that laws changed making it easier to recover from those that refused to pay up.

LosAngelesSooner
2/23/2010, 03:34 PM
Now that dad is gone, mom is still "saving away." And like I told in my "damn skippy yada yada feel good" story they spent a lot of years enjoying their security too.

The major difference between my folks and the average stupid American LAS thinks everyone is can be explained best by the statement some ER doc in Florida made. I can't remember it verbatim, but it went something like this:

"We don't have a health care issue, we have a cultural issue. Today I treated a young lady in the ER. She had platinum on her teeth, gold chains, rings, and bracelets on every finger and both arms, obviously very expensive and extensive tattoo work all over her large body, an ipod, and a fancy cell phone. Then, she reached in her wallet and pulled out her Access card. If she just took all the money she spent on gold, platinum, tattoos, cell phones and other electronic devices, etc. she could afford the best health care available. So, it's not a healthcare issue, it's a cultural issue."

LAS is partially right. The "dynamic" exists, it's just a dynamic of sloth, selfishness, and ignorance. It has nothing to do with how much a person can control their financial well-being in today's climate.

There's a poster on this board who many of you have chastised over his financial opinions - who could buy and sell you 10-times over. He owns a lot of property - free & clear, gold, silver, and many other attractive and stable assets. He's done this while raising 3 kids, one who is currently in pre-med at OU. He has never made a ton of money on an annual basis, but he is frugal and wise. He is 5 days younger than me. He's doing this in "today's dynamic."Jesus Christ, Dean...yet ANOTHER ridiculous story which doesn't apply to the VAST majority of people who are affected by this issue.

Everyone...let Dean's two examples be a lesson as to WHY we have the problem that we're currently dealing with in the U.S. Oversimplification and extreme stories which are held up as the norm.

He would have you believe that the vast majority of people fall into this category and that it could be fixed if you fell into his family's example.

NEITHER IS TRUE.

And it's both dishonest and downright retarded to try and do that.

Reasonable people can see this. Otherwise, Dean, keep on spewing this type of crap. Sure it sounds folksy...and it makes you feel all "justified" and "right" about things, but it's not honest, it's not accurate and it's pretty much all bull****.

And if you have even a cursory understanding of what is going on in America right now you'd know that Dean's "logic" on this issue is closer to Joe the Plumber than Thomas Friedman.

LosAngelesSooner
2/23/2010, 03:37 PM
I agree that credit is way too easy to obtain. Anyone got any insight into what changed? Regulations? Laws? Or did the companies just dream up something that would make them rich again?


Part of the problem is the access to easy credit, which causes people to go out and buy crap they can't really afford. Credit was much tougher to come by when I was a kid and so we didn't have a lot of junk. A tv here, a radio there. And we managed to somehow make it through the day without a cell phone. Or video games. Or tattoos.These are two good points which absolutely DO contribute to the problem.

However the added problem exists that in the US today you absolutely NEED credit and a credit card in order to function on a basic level. The issue then becomes how to deal with predatory credit card companies which, thankfully, Obama is KIND OF trying to address. But further reform is necessary.

The new laws go into affect today/tomorrow which will start to stem the loss of blood.

C&CDean
2/23/2010, 03:42 PM
OK. What I'm getting out of all this is that you are a lazy ******* who thinks everyone else is too. Check.

And FWIW, you are the ridiculous one here. First, nothing I've said is untrue - yet you continue to call it all bull****. Then you call it retarded - or better yet, me retarded for telling a couple of stories about people who are close to me. And yes, the vast majority of people do fall into the dumbass category and don't have a ****ing clue about life and long-term security. Call it redneck downhome bull**** all you want there slick, it's you who are full of **** on this one. Anyone in this country CAN prosper if they're willing to sacrifice and be wise. Very few are though, so you are in good company.

LosAngelesSooner
2/23/2010, 03:49 PM
Right. I'm lazy. I never work hard. I live a privileged life. Money is just handed to me. I don't invest. I have no concept of hard work. My parents didn't teach me anything about fiscal responsibility. In fact, my father didn't work 40 years in a dead end, soul killing job, saving every penny he could earn to provide for his four children while my mother worked in another dead end job while also being a mom to four children until he finally retired...and died 1 year later from congestive heart failure...never getting to live any of his life's dreams or see any of his life's goals.

We didn't try to save his life, but have the health insurance, which he paid into for his whole life, get canceled because of his "pre-existing condition" which was diabetes. That wasn't what made him ineligible for a heart transplant.

In the meantime, I have platinum and gold teeth, tattoos and gold chains. I haven't scraped coins from my couch, gone without, busted my *** on a ranch, worked in blue collar jobs, etc...etc...

You got it all figured out Dean. :rolleyes:

If only I would work as hard as you and your family...

I'm glad that everything in your world fits into your two ridiculously oversimplified and unrealistic categories. It just makes folksy, down home sense...

...and it's ****ing retarded.

C&CDean
2/23/2010, 03:58 PM
Well obviously he ****ed up cause look how his kid turned out...:bsmf:

LosAngelesSooner
2/23/2010, 03:58 PM
Oh, and by the way...I never questioned the honesty of your story regarding your family. What I said was that it was bull**** to try and apply it to all the families in America who are struggling in the current situation.

As for your "Happy Black Gangbanger" who needs health care...yeah...I'm calling total, unequivocal bull**** on that one. At best it's one extremely random exception, at worst it's a deliberate deception created to mislead people and deny our fellow Americans the health care reform which we all know we need.

C&CDean
2/23/2010, 04:00 PM
You might need health care reform, I'll stick with what I've got thanks very much.

LosAngelesSooner
2/23/2010, 04:00 PM
Well obviously he ****ed up cause look how his kid turned out...:bsmf:
I wish my dad were still alive, because he'd hop his 75 year old *** in his truck and drive down to your ranch to kick your ***.

Ah, who am I kidding. You guys would end up sitting on your porch, drinking beers and shooting random **** with both of your collections of guns.

But he'd still probably get in one good slap. You deserve it. :cool:

C&CDean
2/23/2010, 04:02 PM
Hell I'd let him kick me all over the farm just to make up for all the asswhoopins he should have given you.

yermom
2/23/2010, 04:03 PM
You might need health care reform, I'll stick with what I've got thanks very much.


and it finally gets back to the "i got mine" mentality ;)

C&CDean
2/23/2010, 04:17 PM
and it finally gets back to the "i got mine" mentality ;)

No homeboy, it gets back to the "I worked very hard for very many years and deserve to keep what I've got" mentality.

I remember when I first went to work. All my buddies were going to work at the mines in AZ. They were making big bucks. Went out and bought new trucks, got fancy apartments, and many bought big homes, etc. Party city. They used to call me a dumbass for being a "government mule." I was making less than half what they were, but my pop warned me about the mines. He said "that whole deal is feast or famine. High on the hog one day, dead broke the next. You're better off sticking with something solid."

Within 10 years I'm making more than them, and then the layoffs came. Homes forclosed on, interest rates on home mortgages up around 16%, cars and trucks repoed. Bad times. A couple of them got smart and hooked up with some steady companies, but unfortunately most of them didn't. Right now they're all a bunch of broken down old men who have to work construction jobs and will have to work until the day they die if they want to eat.

There's good jobs out there. There's stable jobs out there. There's good retirement and health benefit plans out there. One just has to a) educate themself, and b) don't jump on the first big money deal that comes rollling into town that looks too good to be true. Oh yeah, I forgot c) not be a lazy **** who has to have a new ride every year with bling.

yermom
2/23/2010, 04:35 PM
you are just lucky yours is still there. you are applying a case study (your life) to a general case. and not everyone possesses the health or mental prowess to get beyond their crappy job. if everyone could work like Dean, Dean wouldn't be special, and probably wouldn't have gotten anywhere

it's not like i'm whining because i don't have anything. i have pretty kickass health coverage and make pretty decent money. i'm also pretty lucky to be where i am, on top of working my *** off for many years

Mjcpr
2/23/2010, 04:40 PM
Isn't the USPS losing billions? Maybe you need to work harder, Dean.

:D

C&CDean
2/23/2010, 04:44 PM
Oh don't ever think I don't feel blessed. I thank God every day for what He's provided. I'm in no-way smart enough to be as secure as I am on my own. I hope I wasn't implying that. Yes, I put myself in positions to succeed (joined the military, went to school and got a couple degrees, etc.), but all the credit belongs to the big guy upstairs. For whatever reason He's decided I'm worth it.

C&CDean
2/23/2010, 04:44 PM
Isn't the USPS losing billions? Maybe you need to work harder, Dean.

:D

Dude, they're losing billions cause they're funding my muh****in' retirement, yo.

jkjsooner
2/23/2010, 10:51 PM
No homeboy, it gets back to the "I worked very hard for very many years and deserve to keep what I've got" mentality.

I remember when I first went to work. All my buddies were going to work at the mines in AZ. They were making big bucks. Went out and bought new trucks, got fancy apartments, and many bought big homes, etc. Party city. They used to call me a dumbass for being a "government mule." I was making less than half what they were, but my pop warned me about the mines. He said "that whole deal is feast or famine. High on the hog one day, dead broke the next. You're better off sticking with something solid."

Within 10 years I'm making more than them, and then the layoffs came. Homes forclosed on, interest rates on home mortgages up around 16%, cars and trucks repoed. Bad times. A couple of them got smart and hooked up with some steady companies, but unfortunately most of them didn't. Right now they're all a bunch of broken down old men who have to work construction jobs and will have to work until the day they die if they want to eat.

There's good jobs out there. There's stable jobs out there. There's good retirement and health benefit plans out there. One just has to a) educate themself, and b) don't jump on the first big money deal that comes rollling into town that looks too good to be true. Oh yeah, I forgot c) not be a lazy **** who has to have a new ride every year with bling.

So we need more people working for the government and less people working the mines . Got it.

soonerhubs
2/24/2010, 06:53 AM
It's easy to see the anectodes on one side, but where are the sources to back up the assertion that most people without insurance got there by no fault of their own? This culture of helplessness disgusts me so educate me to change my paradigm.

yermom
2/24/2010, 09:20 AM
anecdotes don't establish a trend, and i didn't see anyone make the claim that most people without insurance are that way because of some calamity

i'm sure the majority of people elect not to have insurance so they can buy TVs, DVDs, booze, whatever.

that doesn't mean that everyone is in that boat though

C&CDean
2/24/2010, 09:32 AM
So we need more people working for the government and less people working the mines . Got it.

Quasi-government fool, get your facts straight before you pop off. Not one single penny of USPS revenue comes from your hard-earned tax dollars. Not. One. In fact, if the USPS finishes an FY in the black, everything they make has to go back to the federal government. So go **** up a rope.

And the mines? Well let's just say their beloved labor unions raped the rank & file and left town in their Caddies. There was no way in hell management was going to cowtow to those leeches and their demands, so they just shut the door.

Bourbon St Sooner
2/24/2010, 09:51 AM
When was the last year the USPS finished the year in the black? [ducks]

Bourbon St Sooner
2/24/2010, 10:01 AM
I know, but I want the citizens to have it available. I have mines...I just think something should be available for everyone else.

The fallacy in this arguement is that just because you nationalize health care doesn't all of a sudden make it an unlimited resource. Just because you're covered doesn't mean you get care.

C&CDean
2/24/2010, 10:05 AM
When was the last year the USPS finished the year in the black? [ducks]

Actually, we've done it for several years in a row - except that our beloved Congress decided the USPS needed to pre-fund retirees health insurance (no other "government" agency has to do this). Bingo, we're $5 billion in the ****ter. Our actual numbers are good - then they throw a $7-8 billion dollar lead weight on our head.

SoonerAtKU
2/24/2010, 10:43 AM
Then aren't they in some way doing you all a favor? Instead of having to pay back that surplus, you're getting to use it to fund employee benefits AND coming in with need to establish a lower baseline for the next year, which allows for price increases.

Or does it turn into job reductions?

Bourbon St Sooner
2/24/2010, 02:04 PM
Actually, we've done it for several years in a row - except that our beloved Congress decided the USPS needed to pre-fund retirees health insurance (no other "government" agency has to do this). Bingo, we're $5 billion in the ****ter. Our actual numbers are good - then they throw a $7-8 billion dollar lead weight on our head.

Well UPS and FedEx also have to fund their pension and retiree health plans and report to shareholders how much pension liability they owe vs. assets set aside to cover that liability. So, essentially, the USPS is being treated like any private corporation that has a pension plan.