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View Full Version : Hey Skull, Lebron



Collier11
2/19/2010, 08:38 PM
You are our resident statistic analyzer, when is the last time a player had such a complete and dominant season as Lebron is having this year?

30.1ppg, 8.4 apg, 7.2 rpg

50% FG, 35% three pt

Sooner04
2/19/2010, 08:41 PM
You are our resident statistic analyzer, when is the last time a player had such a complete and dominant season as Lebron is having this year?

30.1ppg, 8.4 apg, 7.2 rpg
The following are the averages of Oscar Robertson (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/roberos01.html) after his first FIVE years in the NBA:

Points: 30.3
Rebounds: 10.4
Assists: 10.6

Collier11
2/19/2010, 08:42 PM
Well yea, the Big O was a stud, I was wondering about more recent players

Sooner04
2/19/2010, 08:47 PM
No one recent comes close to LeBron's all-around game. He's a prototype. I doubt you find anyone in the ballpark of his current all-around game, and he's only going to get better.

MJ averaged the following in '89:

Points: 32.5
Rebounds: 8.0
Assists: 8.0
Steals: 2.9

Collier11
2/19/2010, 08:50 PM
Yea off the top of my head I figured MJ but Skull always has some crazy good stats so I figured id leave it up to him ;)

BTW, I have no doubt that Lebron will atleast challenge to average a triple double in the coming years

Eielson
2/20/2010, 12:20 AM
Magic Johnson 1988-1989:

22.5 points, 12.8 assists, 7.9 rebounds. Lead league with 91.1% FT shooting.

Collier11
2/20/2010, 12:21 AM
pretty solid there

Eielson
2/20/2010, 12:24 AM
Larry Bird 1986-1987:

28.1 points, 7.6 assists, 9.2 rebounds. Over 50% FG, 40% 3pt, and led league with 91% free throw shooting.

Collier11
2/20/2010, 12:26 AM
give me something since Jordan if ya got it, thats kind of what im looking for, and yes im being lazy :D

Eielson
2/20/2010, 12:28 AM
T-Mac and Kobe have some seasons in the range of 25+ points, 6 rebounds, 6 assists. None are quite as good as the one you listed of Lebron, but they're close as I can find.

Collier11
2/20/2010, 12:31 AM
I think IMO this season is the season that Lebron finally surpassed Kobe, look at how good the Lakers have played without Kobe. If you took Lebron away from the Cavs they would be average

Eielson
2/20/2010, 12:35 AM
Not better, but...

Dwyane Wade last season:

30.2 points, 7.5 assists, 5 rebounds.

Sooner04
2/20/2010, 12:36 AM
If you took Lebron away from the Cavs they would be average
No they wouldn't. They'd be terrible.

Collier11
2/20/2010, 12:37 AM
you are probably right

Eielson
2/20/2010, 12:37 AM
I think IMO this season is the season that Lebron finally surpassed Kobe, look at how good the Lakers have played without Kobe. If you took Lebron away from the Cavs they would be average

I've been saying that Kobe is a better fit for the Lakers, and Lebron is a better fit for the Cavs. However, I'd probably have to say that Lebron is a better fit for more teams than Kobe is. I've been feeling this way since last year. Kobe isn't in his prime, though.

JLEW1818
2/20/2010, 12:00 PM
I don't think he is only going to get better with stats. Only to go down in my opinion.

There is "nothing around" lebron as many espn/bron bron butt buddies cry.

say u put him on the Lakers, his stats are not nearly as good. Sure the team might be better tho.

this really could hurt his game, if others on his team are good players. Like a Bosh or Amare in the future in new york... ;)


all the people saying that amare +shaq + lebron = ring for sure... i don't agree. shaq and amare didn't work out with Nash. Sure Lebron is different. But just in, Lebron's game is driving the ball to the basket almost all the time. Will Shaq and Amare just be standing on the 3 point line? lol no... sounds like a clogged paint to me.


Also when lebron gets a "point" guard, his stats will go down.


either way, if the cavs win the title this year, he is the greatest b/c he has nothing around him.... if the cavs lose, its b/c lebron has a ****ty team.

I'm still sold on the Magic winning the East. If that is not playoff depth, idk what is. they are loaded.

Scott D
2/20/2010, 02:11 PM
what are you talking about...clearly the Knicks are going to win the East ;)

JLEW1818
2/20/2010, 02:33 PM
Lebron and Bosh or Amare

ahhhh

Scott D
2/20/2010, 10:06 PM
David Lee and Tracy McGrady...all the way this year bub.

Eielson
2/20/2010, 10:30 PM
I'm not sure anybody thought that Shaq and Lebron would win it all.

the_ouskull
2/21/2010, 12:02 AM
Maybe not stats-wise, but according to Win Share, LeBron was actually having a better year last year. Last year, his WS of 20.25, 14th-best all-time, was up there with seasons the likes of Oscar in 63/64, Jordan in 90/91 and 95/96, Wilt in 67/68, David Robinson in 93/94, and Artis Gilmore in 71/72.

I thought I'd throw a different stat at ya.

As far as PER goes, he's in a class all by himself, honestly...

KG in the middle 2000's, and Shaq in the late 90's/early 00's both come close, as far as super-recent goes... T-Mac in 02/03, back when he was sicktastic, like, every night... yeah, even then, he wasn't as good, on average, as LeBron is, every single night.

Let me try this another way... Larry Bird's best season was 84/85, where he posted a PER of 26.5. To understand the difference between Bird's 26.5, and LeBron's 31.76, I'm going to first use a calculator - 5.26. Now, let's look at some difference of 5.26, between current players.

Five point two six is (roughly, give or take .20ish...) the difference between:

- Chauncey Billups and Sergio Rodriguez
- Brandon Roy and Monta Ellis
- Kobe Bryant and Andre Iguodala
- David West and the "Chairman" Yi.

Those are all differences of roughtly 5.26. So last season, LeBron was playing that much better basketball, PER-wise, than Larry Bird ever played. LeBron was to Larry what Chauncey is to Sergio. Yeah, THAT'S how good this kid's been lately...

the_ouskull

Collier11
2/21/2010, 12:10 AM
nice, thats what I was looking for

Eielson
2/21/2010, 12:24 AM
Would you really rather have Lebron on your team than Bird? I wouldn't, but it's a serious question.

JLEW1818
2/21/2010, 01:03 AM
I'm not sure anybody thought that Shaq and Lebron would win it all.

many dbag young american fans did. the ones that don't even know MJ's jersey number

:D

Eielson
2/21/2010, 01:25 AM
the ones that don't even know MJ's jersey number

45, of course.

Collier11
2/21/2010, 01:35 AM
Would you really rather have Lebron on your team than Bird? I wouldn't, but it's a serious question.

wtih all things equal, yep. Without a doubt

Collier11
2/21/2010, 01:36 AM
Would you really rather have Lebron on your team than Bird? I wouldn't, but it's a serious question.

wtih all things equal, yep. Without a doubt

Collier11
2/21/2010, 01:36 AM
innerweb fail

Scott D
2/21/2010, 01:58 AM
either that or you're just twice as sure.

Sooner04
2/21/2010, 02:45 AM
Would you really rather have Lebron on your team than Bird? I wouldn't, but it's a serious question.
An interesting question, but it's one you really can't answer yet. Bird was a 23-year-old rookie. He was already seasoned by the time he arrived in the league. This is LeBron's seventh year and he's only 25. Lot of maturing still left to do.

I'm not sure anyone understood basketball on the level Bird did. Maybe Jerry West....

Scott D
2/21/2010, 12:50 PM
Would you really rather have Lebron on your team than Bird? I wouldn't, but it's a serious question.

That's like asking would you rather have Ken Griffey Jr. over Willie Mays? or would you rather have Peyton Manning over Joe Montana? or would you have Sidney Crosby over Wayne Gretzky?

Era arguments are always tough to go with. Part of what makes great players great is that they're able to be great in the time they are playing. Just look at the game of basketball really as a great capture of that.

The 70s and 80s were dominated mainly by teams with very strong centers/power forwards. The 90s and 00s have primarily been dominated by shooting guards and quick small forwards.

Sure there are a few elite players who could in all likelihood play in virtually any era, but there are others that if they're in a different time would be average to good instead of great, and a few others that would be below average.

I think a good example of that if skull wants to throw out the basketball equivalent of sabermetrics on him would be Kevin Johnson in his prime.

JLEW1818
2/21/2010, 12:55 PM
I'll take Bird, he has rings :D

Collier11
2/21/2010, 01:00 PM
he also had DJ and Parish

Scott D
2/21/2010, 01:01 PM
LeBron's progression follows Jordan's path more than it does Bird's.

Scott D
2/21/2010, 01:02 PM
And **** all of you for sleeping on the greatness that was Bernard King....damn kids. :D

JLEW1818
2/21/2010, 01:33 PM
Lakers/Nuggets vs magic

NBA finals

the_ouskull
2/21/2010, 02:37 PM
An interesting question, but it's one you really can't answer yet. Bird was a 23-year-old rookie. He was already seasoned by the time he arrived in the league. This is LeBron's seventh year and he's only 25. Lot of maturing still left to do.

I'm not sure anyone understood basketball on the level Bird did. Maybe Jerry West....

There was less parity in Bird's day, so there were fewer "scrub" teams, yes, but there were also fewer teams, period; fewer playoff rounds, etc... I think that, era-wise, a lot of things ultimately balance out. I mean, that's what PER does, even adjusting for the team's pace so that players on a team like the Suns aren't given more consideration than players for a team like the Spurs.

Before this season, I would have never taken LeBron over Bird. Before this season, I would have, EVER, only taken Russell, Jordan, and maybe Magic over Bird. And, of course, Clyde Drexler, but that's a matter of personal preference. :D

But now, I can't say "yes" or "no" definitively. I just can't.

Right now, Bird. But, considering what 04 just said, it's not like we have a huge body of work, in his physical prime, to go on yet, either. What are LeBron's numbers going to look like after banging out 10 more years the way he's been going...? Seriously...

But it's the rings that matter most.

Bird.

the_ouskull

the_ouskull
2/21/2010, 02:43 PM
The 70s and 80s were dominated mainly by teams with very strong centers/power forwards. The 90s and 00s have primarily been dominated by shooting guards and quick small forwards.

Sure there are a few elite players who could in all likelihood play in virtually any era, but there are others that if they're in a different time would be average to good instead of great, and a few others that would be below average.

I think a good example of that if skull wants to throw out the basketball equivalent of sabermetrics on him would be Kevin Johnson in his prime.

Ohemeffinggee!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifx_gRF-ouU

Alas, health also plays a role in greatness...

And yes, I could do the "era v. era" arguments all day long. I live to break down that crap. Wilt against today's centers? Still good. Russell? Eh... he IS only 6'9". BUT, I think Russell would be better. Wilt's game was predicated on being the biggest person on the court, and on proving he was the best player on the court. Russell's game was predicated on winning and nothing else. That kind of game translates well. Wilt would no longer be the "biggest kid on the block," and I think he'd be a lot like a Dwight Howard type now. Maybe more Rik Smits-esque, since he focused primarily on offense, I don't know. As for Russell, I think that he'd be like a hyper-motivated version of Chris Webber. But, either way, both of them would still see minutes...

H*ll, Wilt could probably see minutes for the Rockets today, and he's been dead for years...

the_ouskull

JLEW1818
2/21/2010, 02:51 PM
So skull give me the 2 deep for the 2010-11 Houston rockets.

the_ouskull
2/21/2010, 02:51 PM
And **** all of you for sleeping on the greatness that was Bernard King....damn kids. :D

Seriously...

...but, same thing with KJ. Injuries, man.

Oh, and they get their points in different ways, but I see a lot of King in Kevin Durant, too.

the_ouskull

the_ouskull
2/21/2010, 03:17 PM
So skull give me the 2 deep for the 2010-11 Houston rockets.

Man, you know as well as I do that it all hinges on the feet/legs of one of the largest humans walking, well - limping, the planet today. If Yao's back, then holy crap, 'cause, in case you haven't noticed, Houston's quietly been assembling a team around Yao's talents - not just trying to win for this year.

1 - Aaron Brooks
2 - Martin
3 - Ariza
4 - Scola
5 - Yao

Defense would hurt this starting lineup the most. If you're counting on serious defense to win games, then starting two undersized players in Brooks and Scola already hurts, before you get into the kind of defender they are... Martin's marginal at best, Ariza is decent, and Yao is Yao.

But...

1 - Brooks
2 - Martin
3 - Battier
4 - Hayes
5 - Yao

NOW, there's not a lack of defense on the court, although backcourt size is still somewhat of an issue, and will be as long as Brooks is a Rocket... and, since early in games, we should be pounding the ball inside to Yao anyway, it makes sense. Brooks' penetration, Martin's shot, Battier's shot, Hayes rebounding, and Yao's Yao. That's a good starting lineup that is pretty versatile offensively.

So...

1 - Brooks, 2010 1st-rounder
2 - Martin, Temple
3 - Battier, Budinger
4 - Hayes, Jefferies
5 - Yao, Scola

In addition, I think that Andersen will see minutes in the frontcourt, as will Jordan Hill - eventually... and, if Lowry's still on the roster, then he'll be in the rotation as well.

As for that draft pick, if we go guard (see below) then we're looking at players like Eric Bledsoe (undersized - from Kentucky) and Willie f'ing Warren... from Oklahoma, in case you haven't seen any f*cking highlights this season... based on where we'll be drafting. (i.e. - nobody that can help us...)

EVERYTHING depends on Yao, man. Without him, then we move Scola to start, and Andersen to fill in his place on the 2-deep, or, if we can steal one in the mid-late 1st-round, then, instead of going with a solid backup guard, we try to take a good, solid big to spell Scola. Bad news? Who? Not in this draft... not where we'll be drafting. (Then again, that's pretty much "ditto" with the backup point guard, but whatever...)

- Solomon Alabi?
- Jan Vessely?
- Udoh, from Baylor? (Actually... Lol.)
- Larry Sanders? (Another possibility...)
- Jerome Jordan, from Tulsa? (Another SERIOUS possibility if he grades-out, pre-draft...)

But, what worries me is that we'll get someone like Trevor Booker, who is good - real good, but also, like most of our f'ing team, EXCEPT Yao, undersized for his position. I like Booker at 6'10" a heck of a lot more than at 6'7".

Another idea I have, although it's more of a reach than some, is drafting "best available," instead of "need," in which case someone like that kid from Butler - Hayward, or Harris from Gonzaga, may also still be on the board.

I guess where we draft will matter too, eh? We DO still have the pick, don't we?

Anyway, those are my thoughts on next year... Yours?

the_ouskull

JLEW1818
2/21/2010, 03:20 PM
any chance we let Battier go? get some more cap space??

Collier11
2/21/2010, 03:59 PM
Houston will be a big time contender next year IF Yao can stay healthy, IF. Ive heard some say his career might be over, who knows. When you are that big, your feet and legs are def worrisome

Eielson
2/21/2010, 04:01 PM
Is it just me, or does only letting Yao play like half the season or less (even when healthy) sound like a good idea? 7'6 guys aren't built to play 82+ the playoffs games. Shoot, I'm not even sure that any humans are built to play 82 game regular seasons. Those darn capitalists.

Collier11
2/21/2010, 04:04 PM
The Rockets need to treat Yao like the Spurs have treated Duncan the last few yrs

the_ouskull
2/21/2010, 06:10 PM
Ride him to death without getting any help around him, trying to cling to the "good ol' days" when people couldn't stop Parker's drive (they can now) and Manu's shot fell (it doesn't now)? But Yao doesn't even play with Parker and Ginobli. Weirdo.

the_ouskull

Scott D
2/21/2010, 08:01 PM
Seriously...

...but, same thing with KJ. Injuries, man.

Oh, and they get their points in different ways, but I see a lot of King in Kevin Durant, too.

the_ouskull

With today's perimeter game, BK would be a 35 ppg guy these days, easy.

I bet if we talk about Elgin Baylor that Eielson will pretend to have a boner.

Scott D
2/21/2010, 08:02 PM
The Rockets need to treat Yao like the Spurs treated David Robinson his last few yrs

fixed for true accuracy.

Eielson
2/21/2010, 09:38 PM
With today's perimeter game, BK would be a 35 ppg guy these days, easy.

I bet if we talk about Elgin Baylor that Eielson will pretend to have a boner.

Pretend?

Scott D
2/22/2010, 05:58 PM
it's the internet, I think we're all off better thinking that you're just pretending to have one.

starclassic tama
2/22/2010, 08:54 PM
i think lebron is the most physically gifted athlete to ever walk the planet. i'm talking just sheer size, speed, strength. he's what, 6'8 about 265 and lightning quick. that being said, i still think he has quite a bit of room to grow shooting the ball, and i still think he sometimes gets the deer in headlights look at the end of games and panics.

Collier11
2/22/2010, 11:00 PM
I think you are mistaking deer in the headlights for being too good of a teammate, at the end of games Lebron should have the ball in his hands but often he dishes off to an open guy which is a good move unless they miss it

Scott D
2/23/2010, 05:34 PM
a better overall athlete than Dave Winfield?

I disagree.

Collier11
2/23/2010, 06:39 PM
A better overall athlete, probably, a better skilled athlete, doubtful

Eielson
2/23/2010, 08:45 PM
http://www.homeruncards.com/images-cards/bo-jackson-bw.jpg

What were we saying about the greatest athlete of all-time?

the_ouskull
2/23/2010, 11:28 PM
http://www.homeruncards.com/images-cards/bo-jackson-bw.jpg

What were we saying about the greatest athlete of all-time?

Nothing. What were YOU saying?

Sin,

http://symonsez.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/thorpe1.jpg

Eielson
2/23/2010, 11:57 PM
8PBvOxicz-0

starclassic tama
2/24/2010, 12:12 AM
i'm not talking about athletic accomplishments. just a pure number crunch of size, speed, quickness, leaping ability. bo is tough to argue though... calvin johnson is insane too, 6'5 240 ran a real combine 4.35...

Scott D
2/24/2010, 02:02 PM
Following college, Winfield was drafted by four teams in three different sports. The San Diego Padres selected him as an outfielder with the fourth overall pick in the MLB draft and both the Atlanta Hawks (NBA) and the Utah Stars (ABA) drafted him. And even though he never played college football, the Minnesota Vikings selected Winfield in the 17th round of the NFL draft. He is one of two players ever to be drafted by three professional sports (the other being Dave Logan).

case....closed.

Collier11
2/24/2010, 02:34 PM
NOT SO MUCH

Scott D
2/24/2010, 03:20 PM
****...Allen Iverson at that age was a better pure athlete than LeBron James. Not saying he was a better basketball player, but he was definitely the better athlete.

Eielson
2/24/2010, 05:20 PM
case....closed.

Jackson is the only person to play in an all-star game in two different major sports.

Scott D
2/24/2010, 11:09 PM
keep up, we're not discussing Bo Jackson, we're discussing why Lebron James isn't.

Collier11
2/24/2010, 11:46 PM
Olympic Gold Medalist in Pentathalon and Decathalon
Pro Bball, baseball, and football

Jim Thorpe, CASE CLOSED

Eielson
2/25/2010, 01:43 PM
Olympic Gold Medalist in Pentathalon and Decathalon
Pro Bball, baseball, and football

Jim Thorpe, CASE CLOSED

Do you really think he can compete with Bo Jackson?

Collier11
2/25/2010, 01:49 PM
different eras, different type of athletes

Eielson
2/25/2010, 05:14 PM
So...no?

Collier11
2/25/2010, 05:27 PM
If you put them up against each other I doubt it but like I said, he wasnt able to train like todays athletes are. What do you think would happen if you put Bob Cousy up against Chris Paul, or something like that