I've signed to help with the Hayworth campaign

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

It would be nice to finally shed John McCain from the political scene:
http://www.jdforsenate.com/

[Okla-homey]

LEAVE JOHN MCCAIN ALONE!

srsly, the guy spent years in a g**d***ned gook prison enduring real, no kidding, torture. And he commanded a carrier air wing. Hayworth, well, didn't.

Sorry. But that's how I feel about that.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

LEAVE JOHN MCCAIN ALONE!

srsly, the guy spent years in a g**d***ned gook prison enduring real, no kidding, torture. And he commanded a carrier air wing. Hayworth, well, didn't.

Sorry. But that's how I feel about that.Dude gotta go! I was involved in the (ineffective) recall petition, back in '00 or whenever it was. Ever since his McCain-Feingold campaign finance restrictions bill, he's been needling America, and is totally unpredictable, often coming down on the wrong side of a political issue. We've had enough.

I remember that you back him, and a few others here do, but he got the nomination for president in '08 with the help of democrats, and that made it much easier for Obama or Hillry to win POTUS. Hayworth is a conservative, and VERY sharp.

[SicEmBaylor]

LEAVE JOHN MCCAIN ALONE!

srsly, the guy spent years in a g**d***ned gook prison enduring real, no kidding, torture. And he commanded a carrier air wing. Hayworth, well, didn't.

Sorry. But that's how I feel about that.

And all of that means what exact when it comes to being a United States Senator? It speaks to his honor and his patriotism, but not his good politics or his judgement in office.

Hayworth is a much better conservative than McCain...always has been.

[soonerscuba]

Heh, I looked him up. Hayworth is the kind of guy RLIMC would sign up to help, so you can imagine how badly he is going to be beaten. I'll give you three guesses as to his job before Congress.

[SicEmBaylor]

Dude gotta go! I was involved in the (ineffective) recall petition, back in '00 or whenever it was. Ever since his McCain-Feingold campaign finance restrictions bill, he's been needling America, and is totally unpredictable, often coming down on the wrong side of a political issue. We've had enough.

I remember that you back him, and a few others here do, but he got the nomination for president in '08 with the help of democrats, and that made it much easier for Obama or Hillry to win POTUS. Hayworth is a conservative, and VERY sharp.

Wait. Wait. Wait.

Didn't you argue that you had to vote for McCain back in '08 because voting for a 3rd party or independent would just be a "vote for the democrats?"

And Democrats didn't have anything to do with his nomination. It was the Party establishment that got McCain his nomination.

[SicEmBaylor]

Heh, I looked him up. Hayworth is the kind of guy RLIMC would sign up to help, so you can imagine how badly he is going to be beaten. I'll give you three guesses as to his job before Congress.

Hayworth is one of the few from the class of '94 that didn't totally sell out himself, conservatism, and by extension the country. He was up for a leadership position a few years ago, and I remember sending out a **** load of emails to members of the GOP caucus encouraging them to support him. My efforts bore no fruit.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Hayworth is one of the few from the class of '94 that didn't totally sell out himself, conservatism, and by extension the country.He IS rock-solid, and has given McCain his due, for all the RINO behavior. Hayworth was FABULOUS on his local radio-talk show here in PHX. This will prolly be the most interesting primary senate race in the country, IMHO.

And yes, Sicem, I would vote for McCain if he won the nomination, since he's at least a part-time conservative, unlike whichever sorry democrat that would run against him. (if Hayworth can't beat McCain in the primary, no third party candidate has a ghost of a chance of beating him, either. Only a democrat might be able to beat him, in the general)

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

And Democrats didn't have anything to do with his nomination. It was the Party establishment that got McCain his nomination.haha, you're smarter than that.

[soonerscuba]

Hayworth is one of the few from the class of '94 that didn't totally sell out himself, conservatism, and by extension the country. He was up for a leadership position a few years ago, and I remember sending out a **** load of emails to members of the GOP caucus encouraging them to support him. My efforts bore no fruit.Meh, if he cared about the 4th amendment in 2002 as much as the 2nd in 2010, you might have a case. Just another fringe blowhard who will bend the second it becomes untenable to be principled. FWIW, nobody follows this concept better than a Dem, see 2002-2005 Congress.

[Harry Beanbag]

As ambivalent as I am about McCain, Hayworth is a boob. And I usually really like boobs.

[Okla-homey]

Lots of retired GI's in AZ. I bet they break for John. I hope so anyway.

[Flagstaffsooner]

I may have to register Republican so I can vote in this thing.

[StoopTroup]

Maybe Hayworth should get a truck.

[swardboy]

Count me as another Repub who is sickened by McCain. He's too busy courting Dems for my taste.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Count me as another Repub who is sickened by McCain. He's too busy courting Dems for my taste.Campaign finance "reform", amnesty for illegals, voted for TARP, etc., UGH!

[Crucifax Autumn]

At least one of those things sounds like Reagan.

Personally I like the more centrist approach of someone like McCain, but my problem is he's centrist in the wrong issues. If I was a hard core conservative he'd drive me ape****. As it is, I just wish he'd choose more sensible things to meet the dems in the middle about.

[SicEmBaylor]

I really don't ask a lot of my politicians. All I want is for them to truly believe in a very small and very efficient government at home and abroad and do everything they possibly can to expand individual liberty and hack the Federal government off at the knees. That's not so much to ask.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

At least one of those things sounds like Reagan.

Personally I like the more centrist approach of someone like McCain, but my problem is he's centrist in the wrong issues. If I was a hard core conservative he'd drive me ape****. As it is, I just wish he'd choose more sensible things to meet the dems in the middle about.you are referring to one of Reagan's few mistakes, his going for amnesty, for what reason?(as if a conservative would applaud amnesty, haha)

What sensible approaches to what issues do the Democrats have, in your opinion?

[Crucifax Autumn]

heh...You got me there! I don't see much sensible from the mainstream on either side honestly. As a centrist in theory, I find it odd that I seem to most agree, at least in a common sense way, with the more extreme members of both parties.

Take this how you will, but I think that one of the most sincere and thoughtful members of the Democratic party is Dennis Kucinich. MAny of his ideas are WAY out there from a centrist, mainstream point of view, but he's actually bothered with the intellectual side of figuring out how his ideas would actually work and be paid for. He had actual budgetary figures to show how his heathcare plan would be sustainable withing the Medicare/Medicaid structure by merely cutting out the fluff from insurance companies and administrative fees for example. He's painted as a loony in much the same way hard right politicians are for the simple fact that he's not playing the game. That's why he can basically be a socialist and win in what's considered a Republican district every 2 years for nearly 2 decades now.

As for sensible approaches from the Dems, I'd have to say that, until they actually got the power to do it, their insistence on going after the EMPLOYERS of illegals was a great idea since the logistics make it easier to do compared to physically removing millions of people who will keep coming back. It's a lot easier to make it useless for them to come here.

My big question right now is why did they take a year to get to the jobs bill and why is this so controversial after TARP and all the bailouts sailed through? I'm not saying it's a perfect bill and I don't even know all the details, but if they could have a bipartisan approach to those other steaming piles, it seems like JOBS oughtta be a no-brainer.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

So, Kucinich wins conservatives votes by advocating more socialization of the medical industry? He's a maverick that way?

Why do you think the dems wanted to punish employers first, instead of just deporting illegals?

[Crucifax Autumn]

I think he wins because he's sincere and not just playing to win.

As for the why, I have no clue, but I DO think it would be more effective for obvious reasons. I don't call it punishing employers though. I call it defending legal workers.

Being politicians, I'm sure they have more nefarious motives, but from my own viewpoint it would just plain work better and cost less resources while encouraging decent wages for Americans. Yeah, we'd be pissed off that lettuce is more expensive for a bit, but we'd get over it.

[Crucifax Autumn]

And trust me...Being "right next door" to you in Vegas, I can look out the window and see a ton of people that would pack up and go back home if they couldn't work at the local Del Taco or landscaping company, so in effect they would be deported...AT THEIR OWN COST...FREE FOR TAXPAYERS.

[SicEmBaylor]

Why do you think the dems wanted to punish employers first, instead of just deporting illegals?

Because there are way the hell too many of them to deport. It's like an infestation -- you can't kill every rat but you can eliminate their source of sustenance and eventually their numbers will drastically decline.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Not to mention that it's truly the CONSERVATIVE way to take care of the problem. Throwing tons of money at border fences, ICE, jail space, transportation cost, etc. rather than coming down on the anti-American food source for these people who would rather save a buck than hire an actual citizen at a fair wage is NOT anti-business, it's pro American. Similarly we should go after assinine businesses that ship jobs overseas to save a buck to remain cometitivel priced. We need to do what someone else suggested and tax those businesses the difference in cost between Hajib and a good American employee. Hell, tax 'em double and see if they keep outsourcing jobs. In the good old days American businesses were able to compete with cheap overseas competition because we had better goods and services. We need to get back to that instead of hearing "que?" when we ask what aisle the paper towels are on or listen to Raji ask us stupid **** like "do you the computer have plugged in my friend" on tech support.

If making these a-holes remember what country they are running a business in is anti-business, put me down as a hater of business, but I see it a little different. These dirty ****heads need to be running a business for the GOOD of the US, not to save money exploiting people to save me a dollar when I'd rather be paying my money knowing I'm keeping our country strong and our people fed, clothed, and employed. Taking advantage of some Pakistani by paying him 20 cents an hour or using some illegal alien to do an American job because he won't complain about working 80 hours a week for 300 bucks off the books is not only inhumane, it's anti-American. LEt those poor bastards go home or get a job with a Pakistani company telling Pakistanis to plug it their PC and at the same time make sure that Jonathan Smith can feed his kids and get them and his wife insurance. Hajib and Fernando are the reason legal Americans have to leave their kids home alone while mommy and daddy both work to pay the mortgage and in the meantime they are only screwing themselves and their own countries by not contibuting to bettering their own country.

This is the crap I just don't get. The leftiest left of my soul can see how it's only hurting those people to treat them like crappy low-paid subhumans and the rightiest right of my soul can see how they need to take their asses home and work for their own people or come here legally. The only way to guarantee that this happens is to spend 1/100th the resources making employers obey the law than it takes to utterly fail at punishing the people who are taking advantage of the fact that out government and a good chunk of the right think businesses acting unethically is perfectly OK and should apparently even be encouraged. If those businesses can't stay afloat and profitable by being morally just and legally spotless, then they need to fire the guy in charge or develop a better business plan. If they don't want to do that then screw 'em. Let them fail.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Seriously, these companies that hire illegals or outource good American jobs are doing more damage to our country than a thousand Bin Ladens. The sad part is that the worst offenders are the ones that were built by hard-working Americans and will now sell out the very nation that made them just to tell the shareholders that their stocks rose an extra .3 percent or to tell consumers that their lettuce is 50 cents cheaper a head or that their extended computer warranty is 10 bucks cheaper for 3 months.

If these companies don't want to help Americans, why should Americans help them?

[Collier11]

Exactly Cru

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Reagan's amnesty program failed because it addressed only two of the three necessary legs of the three-legged stool: enforcement and adjustment of status of those illegally present. It did not address future migration flows due to economic growth and job demand (i.e., worker visas).

Those who focus on enforcement only are to blame for 12 million illegally present. Making it tougher to cross the border essentially ended circular migration that complements seasonal jobs. So when the 12 million got here, they chose to stay permanently. It's now too expense pay the fee to bribe the border guards every year. You can thank the Hayworth crowd for that.

Funny about Hayworth though, in every other respect he is a free market guy. He believes in free market legislation, just not for the free market of labor. Businesses should have the freedom to hire who they believe is most qualified for the job. And if the most qualified needs a worker visa, Uncle Sam should be a good servant and give the worker a visa ). Uncle Sam should concentrate on keeping terrorists ouit, not workers.

Uncle Sam doesn't need to perpetuate an affirmation action program for Americans. Government bureaucrats shouldn't decide who is most qualified for a job, businesses should.

All of this is consistent with "smaller gov't" idea.

Freedom for the consumer and freedom for the businessman.

And taxing the f**k out of businesses to change their behavior is not the conservative way.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

You think I am AGAINST punishing businesses for hiring illegals, huh? I just find it curious that some democrats seem to jump at the thought of punishing business, but don't seem interested in enforcing the illegal immigration laws already on the books.

[StoopTroup]

Seriously, these companies that hire illegals or outource good American jobs are doing more damage to our country than a thousand Bin Ladens. The sad part is that the worst offenders are the ones that were built by hard-working Americans and will now sell out the very nation that made them just to tell the shareholders that their stocks rose an extra .3 percent or to tell consumers that their lettuce is 50 cents cheaper a head or that their extended computer warranty is 10 bucks cheaper for 3 months.

If these companies don't want to help Americans, why should Americans help them?

Here's something maybe folks don't consider...

I know this Family here in Tulsa...their Family is originally from Mexico. They have had 3 or 4 generations of living in America as hard working Americans. They have paid taxes...raised their children to believe in America and be American's who respect their Mexican Heritage but realize they live in a land of opportunity.

This Week the Mother lost her job as the Company moved the operation to Mexico.

She is moving back to San Antonio to be with Family and try to find another job...start all over again so her two daughters can continue their education. The girls are very bright and very pretty but it has taken it's toll. If it wasn't for Family they would have nothing.

America isn't as much of a land of opportunity anymore and by the looks of it...folks who were cutting edge will be competing for the fast food drive thru window jobs soon.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

...we should go after assinine businesses that ship jobs overseas to save a buck to remain cometitivel priced. We need to do what someone else suggested and tax those businesses the difference in cost between Hajib and a good American employee. Hell, tax 'em double and see if they keep outsourcing jobs. In the good old days American businesses were able to compete with cheap overseas competition because we had better goods and services...
You are mixing punishment for breaking the law, or accessory to breaking the law with restricting competition. ..going complete isolationist. That's a can of worms that has been tried before, and it ends in UTTER FAILURE.

[olevetonahill]

YAWN

Same **** different day :rolleyes:

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

If the gov. will raise taxes on those who think American labor costs are more than they want to pay, either that business has to dramatically raise its prices, or just move the whole gaw*amn thing out of the country. ..or just don't do business. Isolationism never works worth a damn. That is a TOTALLY different issue from not hiring illegals, who need to be deported.

[Crucifax Autumn]

It may be a different issue, but they both **** me off.

[StoopTroup]

YAWN

Same **** different day :rolleyes:

Well....yeah. If we continue to bitch though....at least we're doing something. :D

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

It may be a different issue, but they both **** me off.I get more po'd at organized labor, when they have a choke hold on the labor supply for entire industries, and make things artificially expensive.

In any case, Hayworth is against amnesty, and McCain is for it.

[Curly Bill]

Here's something maybe folks don't consider...

I know this Family here in Tulsa...their Family is originally from Mexico. They have had 3 or 4 generations of living in America as hard working Americans. They have paid taxes...raised their children to believe in America and be American's who respect their Mexican Heritage but realize they live in a land of opportunity.

This Week the Mother lost her job as the Company moved the operation to Mexico.

She is moving back to San Antonio to be with Family and try to find another job...start all over again so her two daughters can continue their education. The girls are very bright and very pretty but it has taken it's toll. If it wasn't for Family they would have nothing.

America isn't as much of a land of opportunity anymore and by the looks of it...folks who were cutting edge will be competing for the fast food drive thru window jobs soon.

What is it we are supposed to consider here?

...and how old are the girls? I might take one off her hands. ;)

[StoopTroup]

Not a chance. Her Grandmother will give you a Colombian necktie.

[Curly Bill]

Not a chance. Her Grandmother will give you a Colombian necktie.

Colombian necktie? I thought you said they was messicans?

[StoopTroup]

Colombian necktie? I thought you said they was messicans?

She is a very talented well traveled Woman. :D

[Curly Bill]

Ironic huh, they came here to work and such, and now their job has been outsourced back to where they were originally from.

Maybe we send all the jobs down there and then we can invade their country?

[Crucifax Autumn]

I'm very much familiar with the human side of the equation and it's one of the reasons I'm not totally opposed to some sort of amnesty or fast tracking for people who have been here a long time.

However, and there's always a however, the human stories wouldn't exist if we'd tightened up, either on the border security side as RLIMC suggests or the employer side as I suggest, in the first place. So for the sake of argument let's assume that everyone here stays here and we argue "from this point forward".

[Curly Bill]

I'm very much familiar with the human side of the equation and it's one of the reasons I'm not totally opposed to some sort of amnesty or fast tracking for people who have been here a long time.

However, and there's always a however, the human stories wouldn't exist if we'd tightened up, either on the border security side as RLIMC suggests or the employer side as I suggest, in the first place. So for the sake of argument let's assume that everyone here stays here and we argue "from this point forward".

I'd really rather not assume that such is the case.

[Crucifax Autumn]

I'd really rather not assume that such is the case.

Me either, but there's no way in hell a SO conversation can move forward without some silly hypothetical like that. If you'd rather we can assume that they all get kicked out tomorrow, but then juan and the rest of the lettuce picking crowd are gonna keep crying and ST's gonna come up with some Korean family down the street that had to close their family grocery because Hajib opened a 7-11 across the street.

So, for the sake of argument, let's just play the game of threadjacking Rush's campaign thread as if Barry just ordered a repeat of Reagan's amnesty. Taht allows for yet another assumption that the best both sides have to offer have done incredibly stupid **** when it comes to immigration, border security, and workplace enforcement over the years and that now they are suddenly gonna magically turn smart and do it right. :D

So...What is doing it right? :confused:

[Curly Bill]

Doing it right? Removing everyone that we possibly can that's here illegally, throwing the book at employers that hire illegals, and throwing up ever kind of physical barrier that we can that keeps peeps on the side of said barrier that they belong.

...or, you could just make it open season on anyone caught crossing the border in a non-appropriate fashion.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I'd really rather not assume that such is the case.I think we could get enough people in to the govt. who would promote enforcement of citizenship laws, as well as shoring up the border secutity, AND penalize businesses caught employing illegals. Those actions need to be taken prior to any wholesale deportment. Massive deportment would be ineffective without a more secure border, IMO.

[StoopTroup]

I can't wait to see what happens to those Chinese folks you boot out.

[Curly Bill]

I can't wait to see what happens to those Chinese folks you boot out.

Given each of em an inflatable boat and a paddle, point em across the Pacific. Sit back and watch the fun! :D

[olevetonahill]

I thot this was gonna be a thread about.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3059/2927360937_fac6657220.jpg

[StoopTroup]

I thot this was gonna be a thread about.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3059/2927360937_fac6657220.jpg

It should have been.

[Curly Bill]

Yeah, her I would not deport. :D

[Crucifax Autumn]

With her the solution would be to plug up all the potential border openings.

Not only was she a total hottie, but she did her best to help Andy Dufresne find his way to freedom.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

Everyone is against Amnesty until they get elected, then they never mention it again once elected.

[OU_Sooners75]

Lots of retired GI's in AZ. I bet they break for John. I hope so anyway.


Sorry Homey...so you would vote for a person because of their military achievements over their political achievements?


That is just crazy. And anyone that does do that is crazy.

Look, I support our troops. I have a brother in the 101st Airborne.

But this is politics, not Military.

[Crucifax Autumn]

They have been intertwined for quite some time now. If Kerry's and Gore's version of military service and W and Clinton's lack of Military service and GHWB's getting shot down and Reagan's acting count, then McCain's should too. Hell, W basically won the nomination in 2000 by saying McCain was a nutjob since he'd been a POW and also some dirty stuff about a black kid in deep south primaries. There's a thread here about Murtha who got away with saying things other guys were slammed for just because he was a disabled vet. Military service is a big deal in US politics and whether you agree it should or not, it influences a lot more voters than not when it really comes down to it.

[OU_Sooners75]

They have been intertwined for quite some time now. If Kerry's and Gore's version of military service and W and Clinton's lack of Military service and GHWB's getting shot down and Reagan's acting count, then McCain's should too. Hell, W basically won the nomination in 2000 by saying McCain was a nutjob since he'd been a POW and also some dirty stuff about a black kid in deep south primaries. There's a thread here about Murtha who got away with saying things other guys were slammed for just because he was a disabled vet. Military service is a big deal in US politics and whether you agree it should or not, it influences a lot more voters than not when it really comes down to it.


When you start voting for people because of their military service...that does this country absolutely no good.

[Scott D]

What I've learned in the past few years is that if RLiMC comes out in support of a candidate, it's a pretty good bet that the candidate will not win.

We all have faith that ACORN will save the day and keep Hayworth from winning. ;)

[Frozen Sooner]

What I've learned in the past few years is that if RLiMC comes out in support of a candidate, it's a pretty good bet that the candidate will not win.

We all have faith that ACORN will save the day and keep Hayworth from winning. ;)

I plan on perjuring myself to register as a Republican so I can vote for Hayworth because a radio guy told me to.

OPERATION MAYDAY!

[Harry Beanbag]

Funny. Hayworth has been doing an evening radio show since getting booted from the House.

[Okla-homey]

Sorry Homey...so you would vote for a person because of their military achievements over their political achievements?




Yes, because military achievements are more difficult to accomplish than political achievements. Thus, people who achieve significant military accomplishments are clearly superior people to those who haven't.

Therefore, in a race between a veteran who served honorably and a candidate who didn't, I'll vote for the vet everytime.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

What I've learned in the past few years is that if RLiMC comes out in support of a candidate, it's a pretty good bet that the candidate will not win.
and, we are all impressed by the political turn our country has taken, for sure. haha. Thanks

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

We haven't had a good politician since 1884, since then the political turn has sucked

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Well the good news for you pro-mass deportation folks is that this recession is so severe that the Homeland Security's estimate of those illegally present has fallen from 11.6 million to 10.8 million -- a negative net migration like the days of the Great Depression. Recessions are effective tools in this battle.

Regarding an all-out effort to round them up and ship them home, the first 5 or 10 % may be easy, but after that, it becomes more difficult and costly. Crucifax, i guarantee you that all of the major resorts in Vegas have employees who are illegally present, but that many of these workers are resourceful enough to provide a photo ID and social security numbers that pass the I9 verification test. How are you going to flesh out those? More gov't resources?

Given enough gov't resources, we could also round up all computers that have illegally downloaded music and imprison the violators. We could round up all pot smokers. We could fine all landlords who rent out to pot smokers. We could close all bars and restaurants who serve underaged drinkers using fake/borrowed/illegally obtained IDs. We could close all gas stations who sell gasoline to uninsured motorists. We could close all gun shops who sold a gun used in the commission of a crime.

But a better idea than creating an army of gov't bureaucrats doing their best to inhibit free enterprise, is to LEGALIZE WORKING. Give those who want to work a damned worker visa. Conservatives used to be pro-business and pro-work. And worker visas need to be portable so we don't end up with a sometimes abusive servitude problem like we had with the old bracero program in the 40s and 50s.

If you fine those who are illegally present and note it on their record before they can receive a worker visa, then it is not amnesty -- just like an unlicensed driver paying a fine and subsequently getting a license is not amnesty.

[Scott D]

and, we are all impressed by the political turn our country has taken, for sure. haha. Thanks

hey I play the Vegas line as much as the next guy heh.