Sorry but Brady is still above Manning

[JLEW1818]

fact

Give me an argument why Peyton is better.. and don't say the word if

[Eielson]

Saturday Night Live.

[yankee]

because peyton beat the trumps. forget eli.

[sooner518]

Because Peyton's teams have usually been worse overall than BRady's Pat's teams. I blame tonight's game on the Colts D. they were horrible.

Peyton's INT looked like a combination of a lazy route by Reggie Wayne and a good play made by the Saints DB.

why is BRady better than Manning? and use an argument other than # of super bowl titles. (otherwise I'll argue that Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Marino with just as much validity)

[starclassic tama]

peyton might be better, i don't know, all i know is if the game is on the line and i get to pick one quarterback i'm going with tom brady

[JLEW1818]

Because Peyton's teams have usually been worse overall than BRady's Pat's teams. I blame tonight's game on the Colts D. they were horrible.

Peyton's INT looked like a combination of a lazy route by Reggie Wayne and a good play made by the Saints DB.

why is BRady better than Manning? and use an argument other than # of super bowl titles. (otherwise I'll argue that Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Marino with just as much validity)

Brady has the "Stats" to back it up too. Way better than Dilfer. Argument not even comparable with Dilfer

[OU_Sooners75]

Because Peyton plays on a team that has less of a defense and less weapons than Brady does.

Not to mention the fact that Peyton is just better!

[OU_Sooners75]

And do not use the, "Well he only has one ring" BS argument!

Marino is in the top 5 of almost every list I see, and he has ZERO rings!

[JLEW1818]

Brady did have some badass D's when he won his 3 rings... there D is pretty soft now... it will be interesting to see how Brady and the pats react next season. If felt like the Pats time is over ....

[JLEW1818]

And do not use the, "Well he only has one ring" BS argument!

Marino is in the top 5 of almost every list I see, and he has ZERO rings!

agree. Rings are way more meaningful in the NBA. Not necessarily the NFL, agree.

[OU_Sooners75]

Brady did have some badass D's when he won his 3 rings... there D is pretty soft now... it will be interesting to see how Brady and the pats react next season. If felt like the Pats time is over ....


They had an amazing run no doubt.

But lets not forget that it took what 3 or 4 GW FGs (including playoffs) to win Brady 3 SBs?

[JLEW1818]

he lead his Team to get those field goals

Adam V was a great kicker too

hell, those Patriot teams were just great teams, all the way around

[BoulderSooner79]

I've noticed when someone starts a thread with "Sorry" they're usually not.
;)

[JLEW1818]

Peyton Manning is 9-9 in the playoffs

you can't be the best ever at 9and9!!! lol

[MeMyself&Me]

Because Peyton plays on a team that has less of a defense and less weapons than Brady does.

Not to mention the fact that Peyton is just better!

^This^


I've noticed when someone starts a thread with "Sorry" they're usually not.
;)

^Well, this too^

[BoulderSooner79]

The thing I'll say about Manning is that he carries his team more than any other single player in the league. He's never had the best team and never had a great defense to back him up. Yet the Colt's regular season record is outstanding and going 1-1 in SB's isn't shabby. I don't think any other QBs could have done that with the Colts all other things staying equal. That doesn't mean he would have equaled Brady had he played for the Pats. He might not have been as cool as Brady in the clutch. Not something we'll ever know.

[JLEW1818]

So Manning is kinda like Lebron James, kinda?? media sees it anyways

IF Manning had this.... IF Manning had that... IF THIS. IF THAT .. IF BRADY DIDN'T HAVE THAT

I don't do ifs.... If i did IFs i would really think OU should have won 3 national titles this decade.

it is what it is..

:D

[MeMyself&Me]

I don't do ifs.... If i did IFs i would really think OU should have won 3 national titles this decade.

I like your ifs... you should do them more often.

[OU_Sooners75]

Peyton Manning is 9-9 in the playoffs

you can't be the best ever at 9and9!!! lol


Marino was what in the Playoffs?

I think he actually had a losing record.

You cannot judge a persons career, key word is career, based off playoffs wins and losses.

Football is the ultimate team sport. It takes more than just Peyton to win the games.

[JLEW1818]

I'll take Montana and Brady over Manning, his brother and his dad, and Marino.

[OU_Sooners75]

So Manning is kinda like Lebron James, kinda?? media sees it anyways

IF Manning had this.... IF Manning had that... IF THIS. IF THAT .. IF BRADY DIDN'T HAVE THAT

I don't do ifs.... If i did IFs i would really think OU should have won 3 national titles this decade.

it is what it is..

:D


This is not about IFs this is about facts.

The New England Patriots under Bilicheat are one of the most dominating teams in the history of the NFL.

The Patriots had so many weapons on offense. They had a very stingy defense.


Who is better?
Walter Payton or Jerome Bettis?

Bettis had more wins and a better playoff record than Payton. Bettis is a top 6 RB in rushing.

Surely by your arguments that means Bettis is the better running back between the two in the history of the NFL.

[JLEW1818]

As Skip B would say, Peyton Manning might be the greatest regular season QB ever... he might be the best passing QB ever... But he is not the Best QB ever.

[JLEW1818]

This is not about IFs this is about facts.

The New England Patriots under Bilicheat are one of the most dominating teams in the history of the NFL.

The Patriots had so many weapons on offense. They had a very stingy defense.


Who is better?
Walter Payton or Jerome Bettis?

Bettis had more wins and a better playoff record than Payton. Bettis is a top 6 RB in rushing.

Surely by your arguments that means Bettis is the better running back between the two in the history of the NFL.

you are now comparing a Running back to a Quarterback.....

AD sucks, b/c he was 1-2 against texas :rolleyes:

[BoulderSooner79]

...Football is the ultimate team sport. It takes more than just Peyton to win the games.

And this is a big reason I like football. There is no equivalent of clearing out and letting Kobe go one on one where he either scores or the refs award him free-throws.

[SteelClip49]

Brady has a coach who used spies to win 3 Super Bowls. Brady has no real talent,,,just a coach who cheats.

Manning is clutch and is the best in the game despite the loss to N.O.

1. Peyton Manning
2. Ben Roethlisberger
3. Brett Favre
4. Drew Brees
5. Eli Manning

[JLEW1818]

Brady has no talent.. he only threw 50 ****ing td passes in a regular season to set a record.

but that was just b/c of Randy Moss, and cameras..

[sooner59]

I am a Pats fans, however, if I had the first pick for a football team, I would pick Manning. Brady would be second. The Colts would be nothing without Manning, but the Pats are good with a decent QB, IMO. Its tough, but I give an edge to Manning. Just watching the guy play makes me forget that Brady has more titles. But I like me some healthy Tom Brady.

[OU_Sooners75]

you are now comparing a Running back to a Quarterback.....

AD sucks, b/c he was 1-2 against texas :rolleyes:


Why not?

They both belong on the offensive side of the ball. They both are playing football.

Like I said, Jlew, we are talking about the ultimate team sport here.

Without a good Oline, neither Brady of Manning would be any good.


Career Stats (excluding post season):

Manning: 4232 completions [21]on 6531 passes [33] (64.8%), 50128 yards [261], 366 TDs [1.9], 181 INT [.94], 95.2 Rating, 54 fumbles (17 lost) [0.28, (0.09)]

Brady: 2672 completions [20] on 4216 passes [33](63%), 30844 yards [161], 225 TDs [1.7], 99 INT [0.77], 93.3 rating, 69 fumbles (31 lost) [0.53 (0.24)]

Brady has played in 129 games, Manning has played in 192 games.

Note: [Averages per game]

[JLEW1818]

I just don't remember a time when Brady threw a pick 6 to lose a super bowl... Nice play make when it matters.

[OU_Sooners75]

I just don't remember a time when Brady threw a pick 6 to lose a super bowl... Nice play make when it matters.


Okay so now you are judging the two because of one play?

I remember when Brady had a chance to win the game against the Giants, and he didn't!


The Patriots had one-last gasp, but Tom Brady's desperation pass on fourth down fell incomplete.

Stop trying to be a troll on this thread...it is not you and you suck at it.

[JLEW1818]

You can't be serious? Comparing a set of Running Backs to a set of quarterbacks... Wow I have heard it all now. Haha... I mean the qb position is only the most important position in sports....Lol there u go lebron James, excluding post season.... THE time it matters most. I'm off to bed now but I will be back in the morning. lol

[OU_Sooners75]

You can't be serious? Comparing a set of Running Backs to a set of quarterbacks... Wow I have heard it all now. Haha... I mean the qb position is only the most important position in sports....Lol there u go lebron James, excluding post season.... THE time it matters most. I'm off to bed now but I will be back in the morning. lol


1. it is not comparing the RBs to the QBs.
It is comparing the RBs between each other...much like you are trying to do with the Qbs.

2. By your criteria, where playoffs/superbowls weigh more than the rest of their careers, Jerome "The Bus" Bettis >>>> Walter Payton.

It is called seeing similar situations and using it to get a point across.

Are the positions the same? no...but the situation is, based on how you are stating that playoffs and superbowls weigh more than regular season and their career as a whole.

[OU_Sooners75]

Lol there u go lebron James, excluding post season.... THE time it matters most. I'm off to bed now but I will be back in the morning. lol


LMFAO you're lame at this...just stop.

I will post their playoff stats later when I get the time to do so.

[JLEW1818]

Okay so now you are judging the two because of one play?

I remember when Brady had a chance to win the game against the Giants, and he didn't!



Stop trying to be a troll on this thread...it is not you and you suck at it.

Lets see... Brady against the Giants.

Brady threw for a TD with 2:42 left in the game to go ahead 14-10

next the patriots "mighty" defense lets the Giants take the lead with a go ahead TD with 35 seconds left in the game. Man Brady really did lose that game.... :rolleyes:

[JLEW1818]

LMFAO you're lame at this...just stop.

I will post their playoff stats later when I get the time to do so.

dude u really are lame... hows this... Peyton Manning 9-9 in the playoffs.. what Brady?

[Collier11]

Because Peyton's teams have usually been worse overall than BRady's Pat's teams.

Just not true, how many straight seasons have Peytons teams won 12 games or more?

Peyton's INT looked like a combination of a lazy route by Reggie Wayne and a good play made by the Saints DB.

Saints DB postgame said he knew what was coming because of the part of the game they were in

why is BRady better than Manning? and use an argument other than # of super bowl titles. (otherwise I'll argue that Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Marino with just as much validity)

Rediculous ^


peyton might be better, i don't know, all i know is if the game is on the line and i get to pick one quarterback i'm going with tom brady

This, Brady is the ultimate clutch QB. 3 gamewinning drives in SBs, woulda been 4 had David Tyree not happened.

Brady is 3-1 in SBs with 7tds and 1int

Manning is 1-1 with 2tds and 2ints

[Collier11]

Peyton Manning is 9-9 in the playoffs

you can't be the best ever at 9and9!!! lol

Brady is 15-4

[OU_Sooners75]

Lets see... Brady against the Giants.

Brady threw for a TD with 2:42 left in the game to go ahead 14-10

next the patriots "mighty" defense lets the Giants take the lead with a go ahead TD with 35 seconds left in the game. Man Brady really did lose that game.... :rolleyes:


Patriots had the ball one last time.

Could not complete a pass on the last series he navigated in that game!

Next?

[JLEW1818]

Brady is 15-4

:)

[OU_Sooners75]

dude u really are lame... hows this... Peyton Manning 9-9 in the playoffs.. what Brady?


And only the lamest person would even try to disregard their career as whole.

But look who I am posting with....Jlew. No real surprise to me. :P

[JLEW1818]

Patriots had the ball one last time.

Could not complete a pass on the last series he navigated in that game!

Next?

dude your argument really sucks hard core dong. He was down 4 points with 35 seconds left in the game.. he did his part.

how did Peyton do when it counted? he threw a pick 6

ohhh yah man he beat Rex Grossman and his bears ...

3 rings Brady, 1 ring Manning

[Collier11]

Peyton might be the greatest regular season QB ever, Brady is a top 3 postseason QB ever

[JLEW1818]

Peyton might be the greatest regular season QB ever, Brady is a top 3 postseason QB ever

I agree, Peyton is the best regular season QB ever


I'll take Brady

[Collier11]

Remember that drive against the Rams by Brady from deep in his own territory, yeah, Manning hasnt done anything like that in the playoffs

[JLEW1818]

Remember that drive against the Rams by Brady from deep in his own territory, yeah, Manning hasnt done anything like that in the playoffs

I'm sure some of us don't remember

[Collier11]

BTW, Brees put on an all time playoff performance tonight, Manning couldnt make one play down field tonight, nearly every play he made were those short timing passes

[JLEW1818]

oh last thing 75... **** you. seriously **** you... i've never liked you... i know people on both boards who don't like you.. ur arguments are ****ing horrible, just horrible. i think u can be a total baby dbag at times.

again **** you... i don't care for you at all... and i don't care .


but really, **** you dude, you seriously are a tool


:)

[OU_Sooners75]

dude your argument really sucks hard core dong. He was down 4 points with 35 seconds left in the game.. he did his part.

how did Peyton do when it counted? he threw a pick 6

ohhh yah man he beat Rex Grossman and his bears ...

3 rings Brady, 1 ring Manning


And yet somehow, a pick 6 has now defined Peyton Manning's entire Career?

LMFAO. Pathetic and asinine to say the least.

Not sure how hard it is to actually understand... well, it is you Jlew, you are not the brightest apple in the posse... Brady has had some really solid play makers in his support. Branch, Moss, Welker, Troy Brown, Corey Dillon, Fauria, and others.

Manning has had Addai, James, Harrison, Clark, and Wayne.

I know I am missing a few from both guys...but you get the point. When it comes to the offense. The Patriots have had a much better offense in place and a MUCH better defense in place than the Colts have.

But Hey, lets disregard one of the best ever because of one pick 6.

LMFAO phucking laughable!

[tommieharris91]

I'll take Montana and Brady over Manning, his brother and his dad, and Marino.


As Skip B would say, Peyton Manning might be the greatest regular season QB ever... he might be the best passing QB ever... But he is not the Best QB ever.

Wanna lose an argument? Cite Skip Bayless and say things like "I'd take Archie and Eli over Peyton." No need to say things like "Tom Brady has taken better care of the football throughout his career than Manning."

[OU_Sooners75]

oh last thing 75... **** you. seriously **** you... i've never liked you... i know people on both boards who don't like you.. ur arguments are ****ing horrible, just horrible. i think u can be a total baby dbag at times.

again **** you... i don't care for you at all... and i don't care .


but really, **** you dude, you seriously are a tool


:)

Thanks for the implosion. LMFAO:eek:

[Collier11]

And yet somehow, a pick 6 has now defined Peyton Manning's entire Career?

LMFAO. Pathetic and asinine to say the least.

Not sure how hard it is to actually understand... well, it is you Jlew, you are not the brightest apple in the posse... Brady has had some really solid play makers in his support. Branch, Moss, Welker, Troy Brown, Corey Dillon, Fauria, and others.

Manning has had Addai, James, Harrison, Clark, and Wayne.

I know I am missing a few from both guys...but you get the point. When it comes to the offense. The Patriots have had a much better offense in place and a MUCH better defense in place than the Colts have.

But Hey, lets disregard one of the best ever because of one pick 6.

LMFAO phucking laughable!

Manning has had far better playmakers on his SB teams than Brady has, the team that he had which was loaded is the game he lost. Wayne and Harrison are by far better than any receiver that Brady ever won a SB with. Branch is a joke, Brown was never a superstar, Fauria...really? How about Dallas Clark. Corey Dillon was at the tail end of his career. This isnt even close

[tommieharris91]

And on another note, can we please stop pinning wins and losses on QBs like they are the only players in a football game? There are at least 21 other players who affect a given team's fortunes in a football game.

[OU_Sooners75]

And on another note, can we please stop pinning wins and losses on QBs like they are the only players in a football game? There are at least 21 other players who affect a given team's fortunes in a football game.


Not according to some folks around here. The game only hinges on what a QB does.

[Crucifax Autumn]

The game hinges on what I will it to be!

[Collier11]

And on another note, can we please stop pinning wins and losses on QBs like they are the only players in a football game? There are at least 21 other players who affect a given team's fortunes in a football game.

I agree but even NFL experts talk about the QB being responsible for a teams failure or success, its always been that way. Very rarely can a QB play bad and his team win a SB, any other position player can have a bad game and the team still win a SB

BTW, Manning has QBd 8- 12 win or more teams and has been to 2 SBs, winning one

Brady has QBd 4- 12 win or more teams and has been to 4 SBs

That should put to rest the argument that Brady had better teams

[OU_Sooners75]

Manning has had far better playmakers on his SB teams than Brady has, the team that he had which was loaded is the game he lost. Wayne and Harrison are by far better than any receiver that Brady ever won a SB with. Branch is a joke, Brown was never a superstar, Fauria...really? How about Dallas Clark. Corey Dillon was at the tail end of his career. This isnt even close


Branch and Brown may not be a Moss or Harrison, but they both were like the Mark Claytons and the Arc (sp?) Monks, Possession receivers.

Like I mentioned, there are other players I know I am missing.

Maybe it was just Bill Bilicheat and his coaching abilities, not sure, but he made that team into a dynasty with those players. And those Patriot Teams played very well together.

You could have put a number of lesser QBs into that system and they would have succeeded. Take Manning away from the Colts, and they lost a few more games than they win.

[Collier11]

Ever wonder why more of a stink wasnt made by other coaches about the video issue with the Pats? Cus they were doing it as well, this isnt an opinion, this has been confirmed by insiders. They just werent dumb enough to get caught

[OU_Sooners75]

Ever wonder why more of a stink wasnt made by other coaches about the video issue with the Pats? Cus they were doing it as well, this isnt an opinion, this has been confirmed by insiders. They just werent dumb enough to get caught

Not a doubt in my mind that a lot of coaches were doing it.

Just cannot spell his last name without looking up, so Bilicheat is easier.

[Collier11]

heh

Plus, he was a 16-0 coach without it, we do know that

[OU_Sooners75]

I agree but even NFL experts talk about the QB being responsible for a teams failure or success, its always been that way. Very rarely can a QB play bad and his team win a SB, any other position player can have a bad game and the team still win a SB

BTW, Manning has QBd 8- 12 win or more teams and has been to 2 SBs, winning one

Brady has QBd 4- 12 win or more teams and has been to 4 SBs

That should put to rest the argument that Brady had better teams

And those 4, they all went to the super bowl, did they not?

Manning has also been a starting QB by about 4 years. Many 12 wins seasons (or winning 75% of a season) did Montana have? Elway? Favre?

[Collier11]

Bills SB winning teams were an 11 and two 14 game winners. His only 12+ win team that didnt make the SB lost in the AFC title game when they blew a 21 pt lead

[OU_Sooners75]

Oh, so they did have a 12 win season that they did not win the Super Bowl.

Amazing.

[Collier11]

Im not sure if we are on the same page here, you might just be drunk and I dont understand you, lol

My original point was that Peyton has had a bunch (8) of really good teams, winning 12 or more games. Of those teams, he has only put 2 in a SB and is only 9-9 in the playoffs while Brady has had 4-12 win teams and put 3 of those in the SB while going 15-4 in the playoffs. This is mainly why I think Brady is a better QB

[OU_Sooners75]

Im not sure if we are on the same page here, you might just be drunk and I dont understand you, lol

My original point was that Peyton has had a bunch (8) of really good teams, winning 12 or more games. Of those teams, he has only put 2 in a SB and is only 9-9 in the playoffs while Brady has had 4-12 win teams and put 3 of those in the SB while going 15-4 in the playoffs. This is mainly why I think Brady is a better QB


And yet the seasons, the teams, do not matter much?

Come on. You and I both know well enough that it takes a lot more than a QB to win championships.

Give Manning the defenses Brady has had in his support, I am sure this type of debate is not even being talked about.

Give Manning the coaching staff that Brady has, the debate is over.

If all we are going to do is judge a player by what happens in a team sport in a playoff setting, then there are a lot of top notch players in the history of the NFL that does not need to be ranked above some others.

[OU_Sooners75]

Tell, who do you think is better, Brady or Elway?

Brady or Montana?
Brady or Marino?
Brady or Favre?
Brady or Aikman?
Brady or Rothlisberger (SP?)

[Collier11]

Tell, who do you think is better, Brady or Elway? Im not as high on Elway as some although he was great but what did he ever do before Terrel Davis got there? Id go with Brady slightly. This one is really close though, im not certain

Brady or Montana? Montana
Brady or Marino? This is tough, Marino was the better QB but Brady the better winner. Id go with Brady
Brady or Favre? Brady, Favre has cost his team too many times with dumb mistakes
Brady or Aikman? Brady, Aikman had far better players around him IMO
Brady or Rothlisberger (SP?) Brady

Keep in mind, when I rate a QB I rate him on a few things. Stats are the smallest part of it but they are a part. Ability to win in the playoffs is the biggest, the ability to make those around him better is also a factor

[Collier11]

And yet the seasons, the teams, do not matter much?

Come on. You and I both know well enough that it takes a lot more than a QB to win championships.

Of course it does, but like I said, not many teams can win a SB when the QB plays bad compared to other positions

Give Manning the defenses Brady has had in his support, I am sure this type of debate is not even being talked about.

Manning is the best regular season qb EVER as I said earlier, but I weigh playoff success the highest. You might be right though, who knows

Give Manning the coaching staff that Brady has, the debate is over.

If all we are going to do is judge a player by what happens in a team sport in a playoff setting, then there are a lot of top notch players in the history of the NFL that does not need to be ranked above some others.

As you see in my last post, Its not the only thing I use to judge, just the biggest reason

[OU_Sooners75]

Keep in mind, when I rate a QB I rate him on a few things. Stats are the smallest part of it but they are a part. Ability to win in the playoffs is the biggest, the ability to make those around him better is also a factor


So by your side of things...shouldn't Big Ben be higher than Brady?

I mean he is 2-0 in Super Bowls. Forget his playoff record though. Brady has lost once. ;)

[Collier11]

Rothenbooger also played really bad in his 1st SB, he had his D and Willie Parker to save his azz. I should readjust what I said, playoff success is the biggest but the QB needs to be a part of that. If Brady was 3-1 in SBs and palyed bad in two of the wins I wouldnt rate him near as high. Look at each of his SBs though, Brady lead his team to the game winning drive in every single game, even the one he lost, his D just didnt hold up in that one

[OU_Sooners75]

Rothenbooger also played really bad in his 1st SB, he had his D and Willie Parker to save his azz. I should readjust what I said, playoff success is the biggest but the QB needs to be a part of that. If Brady was 3-1 in SBs and palyed bad in two of the wins I wouldnt rate him near as high. Look at each of his SBs though, Brady lead his team to the game winning drive in every single game, even the one he lost, his D just didnt hold up in that one


But, but, but, but...according to some people, it is the QB's fault for losing and winning.

Actually the one he lost, they had another crack at it. Granted it was only 35 seconds, but throwing 4 incomplete passes in a row does not help your cause.

technically and actually he could have won that game agianst the Giants with a couple of completions.

[OU_Sooners75]

And FTR, I am not dogging Brady. He is a helluva a QB.

I just like Manning more...and I judge them by their entire careers, not weighted heavily for post season play.

[Collier11]

Well it is more on the QB than any other single position is my point. I mean, he touches the ball more than LAS in a chippendales :D

[Collier11]

And FTR, I am not dogging Brady. He is a helluva a QB.

I just like Manning more...and I judge them by their entire careers, not weighted heavily for post season play.

I agree, im not dogging Manning either. I just weigh 3 game winning SB drives above Manning who doesnt have 1, I also weigh 3 SB wins when Brady played so well in each of them above Mannings 1

[Collier11]

Great article about Peyton, this pretty much sums up my feelings about him. He is the QB that you look at and say, how has he not won more?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/joe_posnanski/02/08/manning.heartbreak/index.html

[OU_Sooners75]

I agree, im not dogging Manning either. I just weigh 3 game winning SB drives above Manning who doesnt have 1, I also weigh 3 SB wins when Brady played so well in each of them above Mannings 1


Well as each player, even a QB, you can only do so much to help your team win.

Both are great at that.

When it is all said and done, Manning will go down as the all time best.

[Collier11]

He needs 1 more SB win, IMO

[SteelClip49]

in New England's case it takes a KICKER to win the big games. Take away 3 Vinatieri kicks to bail them out when it's all said and done and the outcome would be different not knowing who would get the win. The day Brady has a clutch big time game winning drive in the Super Bowl is the day I give him some respect.

Peyton Manning won a Super Bowl on his own with big time drives (won by 12 over the Bears).

Eli Manning's SB42 game winning drive is easily a top 3 all time game winning drive, something Brady doesn't know anything about.

Roethlisberger's amazing drive in SB43 was just as memorable as Eli's and got a big time TD out of it. They could have opted for a FG but decided to win it with clutch plays.

Brady needs his kicker to bail him out.

Brady is all hype and of no substance. Proof showed when the Patriots couldn't cheat anymore and got exposed by the Giants.

[rawlingsHOH]

fact

Give me an argument why Peyton is better.. and don't say the word if

Teams win and lose game. Peyton is probably a better individual player than Brady, but very hard to determine.

In my ultra-comprehensive and analytic list of all-time greatest QBs (post Super Bowl era), winning has to be a pretty big part of it, however.

1. Peyton Manning 936
2. Brett Favre 912
3. Joe Montana 909
4. Johnny Unitas 855
5. Dan Marino 842
6. Steve Young 829
7. Tom Brady 823
9. John Elway 811
10. Fran Tarkenton 795
11. Terry Bradshaw 772
12. Roger Staubach 769

[Crucifax Autumn]

When I rate a quarterback I base my entire opinion on his hair cut and what brand of jens he wears aftre practice on the way home. Eve more important though is the age old question, "does he floss regularly?"

[rawlingsHOH]

Manning v Brady (specifically)


Regular season winning....
Manning 131-60 .686
Brady 97-30 .764
-Brady has a higher percentage, but Manning better longevity. Manning's career has also spanned 3 head coaches, where as Brady has had Bellichick the whole time.


Super Bowls...
Manning 1-1, 1 MVP
Brady 3-1, 2 MVPs
-Funny to think, if Vinatieri doesn't hit a 48-yard game winner in Super Bowl against the Rams, how 2 QBs would be looked at TOTALLY differently. Kurt Warner, would tied with Brady with 2 titles, and would be a HOF lock. Both of those QBs were standing on the sideline wishing. Just wishing. Such a fine line, and often times it's totally out of your control.


Regular Season Awards....
Manning, 4 MVPs, 10 Pro Bowls, 5-time All Pro
Brady, 1 MVP, 5 Pro Bowls, 1-time All Pro
-Pretty big edge to Peyton here.


Statistical Analysis...
(Based on 100 being "league average" over the course of their careers)
Comp%
Manning, 119
Brady, 112

TD%
Manning, 119
Brady, 116

INT%
Manning, 107
Brady, 112 (better)

Sack%
Manning, 122
Brady, 110

Rating%
Manning, 119
Brady, 117

-Both are great. Manning slight edge, comprehensively.

[rawlingsHOH]

Regular Season Winning Super Bowl Apperances Regular Sesaon Awards Statistical Component
Wins Losses PCT TOT W L MVP TOT MVP PB AP TOT Cmp%+ TD%+ Int%+ Sack%+ Rate+ TOT
P.Manni 131 60 .686 200 1 1 1 18 4 10 5 135 119 119 107 122 119 586 939
Favre 181 104 .635 245 1 1 13 3 11 3 108 111 114 100 111 110 546 912
Montana 117 47 .713 188 4 0 3 55 2 8 3 79 124 111 118 111 123 587 909
Unitas 118 64 .648 183 1 1 13 3 10 5 115 111 105 108 108 112 544 855
Marino 147 93 .613 208 0 1 3 1 9 3 62 110 112 109 125 113 569 842
Young 94 49 .657 160 1 0 1 15 2 7 3 76 125 120 113 94 126 578 829
Brady 97 30 .764 173 3 1 2 43 1 5 1 40 112 116 112 110 117 567 823
Elway 148 82 .643 212 2 3 1 34 1 9 0 47 101 102 107 103 105 518 811
Tarkent 124 109 .532 177 0 3 9 1 9 1 52 116 106 112 109 114 557 795
Bradsh 107 51 .677 175 4 0 2 50 1 3 1 34 95 114 96 103 105 513 772
Stauba 85 29 .746 160 2 2 1 31 6 0 18 114 112 117 95 122 560 769

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Its a tough call, but I would have to go Brady now..

I don't agree that Brady has had better talent..Peyton's Oline has been rock solid throughout his career...

[rawlingsHOH]

Its a tough call, but I would have to go Brady now..

I don't agree that Brady has had better talent..Peyton's Oline has been rock solid throughout his career...

Yeah, I'd say Brady had better defensive talent. Both have had similar offensive talent, and great OLs.

[soonerhubs]

I'm amazed at all of the linear simplistic thinking that has gone into both sides of this unsolvable argument. This is one reason why I think morons like Skip Bayless are morons.

--> Excluding ifs has got to be one of the dumbest things anyone can do, because ifs determine everything that happens in every system in existence (not just football.)
For example: What happens if a QB has a terrible offensive line, if the opponent's defensive line is also terrible, if a wide receiver is lazy on a route, if a defensive back has the play of a lifetime, if a coach misreads a blitz, if a defensive end plays with an injury, if the tape doesn't hold on an ankle?
People love to think simplistically and say, well Manning must just suck in the post season.

Putting all the cheating allegations aside, the fact remains that Bellichick has figured out how to put together one of the greatest team systems on the planet. If you doubt it, look at how well Matt Cassell did at NE versus KC, or how well Welker did at Miami versus NE, or the Raiders version of Moss versus the Patriots' version.

I personally think that part (but not all) of the success of Brady comes from this system. I also think it comes from the opponents faced by each team, the field each team plays on, the defenses each team has, and the special teams play of each team. This doesn't even take into consideration the fact that some teams have bad breaks including a bad bounce or a throw caught by the wind.

Alas, in this reductionist society where we blame one president for all the misfortune and another for all the good, we somehow forget to look at the big picture. Seriously, Google general systems theory and take a few days to reflect. It'll give you a much clearer perspective of how muddy the waters truly are, not only is sports, but in life.

[JLEW1818]

IF's are for people who don't have the ring. IF's are the people claiming a fantasy. Give me the damn facts please.

Brady 3 rings. 15-4

Manning 1 ring, and a pick 6 to lose the Super Bowl. 9-9



If OU played a lil better we would have 4rings... If Mark Bradley didn't try to pick that ball up... give me a break

[JLEW1818]

Its a tough call, but I would have to go Brady now..

I don't agree that Brady has had better talent..Peyton's Oline has been rock solid throughout his career...

Maybe the best passing blocking oline ever

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Actually Weis is the one that morphed that system from another....

As much as I don't care for NE(tuck rule), Brady is a winner and has to be up there over Manning IMO..This argument will be a lot easier once both careers are over..

[JLEW1818]

so if Brady never does the tuck, does Gruden stay in Oakland.... and Oakland is still a factor today? :D

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Maybe the best passing blocking oline ever

Yes...they seem to just reload with guys once somebody leaves....And Indy runs a lot of 3 step pass plays

[stoops the eternal pimp]

so if Brady never does the tuck, does Gruden stay in Oakland.... and Oakland is still a factor today? :D

Nope...Al Davis is a moron incapable of a decent football decision...

[JLEW1818]

really tho, if you watch Peyton throw... he literally sometimes has like 7 seconds back there with nobody around

not taking away anything, that is a benefit he has.. Just like Brady has benefits on his team.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

And for those who use the Manning has had different head coaches, he has had only 1 OC...Tom Moore

[The_Red_Patriot]

I have been a diehard Patriots/Boston sports fan since birth and I will say this. Peyton Manning is a better qb than Tom Brady. Don't get me wrong, Tom is one of the greats as well and I wouldn't trade him for anything but think hard about the Patriots dominance of the last decade. The Patriots had an amazing supporting cast especially on the Defensive side of the ball. The defense won a lot of games for the Patriots and Tom stepped up when he needed to.

[SteelClip49]

3 rings to 1 is why Brady is better than PManning.

So...can I say Robert Horry is better than Larry Bird, John Stockton, Steve Kerr, Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, etc...?

[JLEW1818]

no totally wrong. Robert was never the best on his team

[rawlingsHOH]

Stat analysis of Top 20 overall... 100 being league average

Cmp%+ TD%+ Int%+ Sack%+ Rate+
Manning 119 119 107 122 119
Favre 111 114 100 111 110
Montana 124 111 118 111 123
Unitas 111 105 108 108 112
Marino 110 112 109 125 113
Young 125 120 113 94 126
Brady 112 116 112 110 117
Elway 101 102 107 103 105
Tarkent 116 106 112 109 114
Bradsha 95 114 96 103 105
Staubach 114 112 117 95 122
Dawson 125 115 110 90 120
Warner 121 113 99 103 117
Greise 115 112 104 96 113
Starr 121 98 114 81 113
Aikman 114 95 106 110 106
Kelly 112 112 99 104 111
Fouts 114 105 103 115 112
McNair 105 99 109 109 105

Notes

-Only Bradshaw had a completion % below league average. Not surpising with all of the Steelers downfield passing.

-Aikman had the lowest TD rate, and Starr and McNair were also below league average.

-Bradshaw threw the most picks. Again, downfield passing. A little surprised Warner and Kelly both had INT rates worse than league average. They were the only 3, altogether.

-No surprise Manning and Marino are the least sacked. And scramblers such as Staubach and Young get sacked more often, because they extend the play.

-Elway was just a touch above average in all 5 catregories. Hampered, no doubt, by Dan Reeves' QB-unfriendly offenses, the first half of his career. His efficiency took off once Reeves left.

-Montana and Brady are the only two with 110+'s across the board. No surprise they are winners.

[JLEW1818]

like i said... Peyton Manning and Dan Marino are probably the 2 best regular season qbs ever.

Their postseason kills them

All these qbs are elite. But when your saying who is the best.. you have to look at rings. They are usually the deciding factor.

Brady has been in the NFL for 10 seasons. He played 1 game his rookie year. He missed basically the entire 2008 season.

Tom Brady has only 8 seasons stats wise. Manning has 12 full seasons.

again time will tell.. but Brady has 3. more than Peyton will ever have. If Brady does not win another, i would consider it a disappointment. or at least Tom Brady would

[rawlingsHOH]

All these qbs are elite. But when your saying who is the best.. you have to look at rings. They are usually the deciding factor.


Too open to interpretation, in terms of definition of "best".

An argument can easily be made, "rings" certainly equal legacy, but not neccessarily best player.

[Fraggle145]

**** Tom Brady.

[JLEW1818]

I really do like Manning more than Brady, from a fan point of view.. (i don't really care for either)

But sorry, I'm giving the award to the guy who is 15-4 in the playoffs, with 3 rings. 4 Super Bowl appearances. Drove his team down the field to go ahead with a little of 2 mintues left to take the lead, in his Super Bowl loss... giving the ball back with only 35 seconds... lol

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Your jealous your not a manning brother

[SteelClip49]

Vinatieri, not Brady, won it for the Patriots.

You want to talk about postseason clutch....Roethlisberger > Brady.

[JLEW1818]

LOL, who was the guy that got them in field goal range?

Big ben over brady??? LOL LOL LOL

to talk about how good somebody's D was ... go ahead and take a look at Big Ben's first super bowl game stats... his numbers were horrible.

[SteelClip49]

Brady can't finish...he needed a bailout. I don't care if time was limited. Brady needed V.

[JLEW1818]

lol how the heck can Brady not finish... please tell me.....

[soonerhubs]

IF's are for people who don't have the ring. IF's are the people claiming a fantasy. Give me the damn facts please.

Brady 3 rings. 15-4

Manning 1 ring, and a pick 6 to lose the Super Bowl. 9-9



If OU played a lil better we would have 4rings... If Mark Bradley didn't try to pick that ball up... give me a break

...and I suppose you have ALL the facts. Keep living in that simplistic paradigm.

[JLEW1818]

...and I suppose you have ALL the facts. Keep living in that simplistic paradigm.

yes when comparing Brady and Manning, i do have the facts.

some people, and probably some people on here think Peyton is the best ever

how can you make a legit argument when the dude is 9-9 in the playoffs.

[JLEW1818]

Brady can't finish...he needed a bailout. I don't care if time was limited. Brady needed V.

in a huge way V needed Brady... without Brady, who the hell is V????

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I guess Ben didn't need that 100 yard INT by Harrison in the last one and didn't need everybody to make up for the worst performance by a QB in super bowl history in his first one

[Collier11]

Vinatieri, not Brady, won it for the Patriots.

You want to talk about postseason clutch....Roethlisberger > Brady.

Yea since Rothinbooger played so well in the Super Bowl, you are off on this bigtime

[stoops the eternal pimp]

now, if we needed to have a contest to see what NFL QB holds on to the ball too long and takes too many sacks because of it, CONGRATS BIG BEN!

[Collier11]

^This also

[rawlingsHOH]

My whole deal is... I have a hard time justifying that Tom Brady is a better quarterback than Kurt Warner simply because Adam Venitieri made his FG and Jeff Wilkins missed his FG.

It's just a WAY too simplistic way of viewing things.

[rawlingsHOH]

now, if we needed to have a contest to see what NFL QB holds on to the ball too long and takes too many sacks because of it, CONGRATS BIG BEN!
Aaron Rodgers feels robbed!

[soonerhubs]

yes when comparing Brady and Manning, i do have the facts.

some people, and probably some people on here think Peyton is the best ever

how can you make a legit argument when the dude is 9-9 in the playoffs.

It's impossible to know who is better, and I'm hard pressed to think you have ALL the facts.

[rawlingsHOH]

yes when comparing Brady and Manning, i do have the facts.

some people, and probably some people on here think Peyton is the best ever

how can you make a legit argument when the dude is 9-9 in the playoffs.
These aren't legit????



Regular season winning....
Manning 131-60 .686
Brady 97-30 .764
-Brady has a higher percentage, but Manning better longevity. Manning's career has also spanned 3 head coaches, where as Brady has had Bellichick the whole time.


Super Bowls...
Manning 1-1, 1 MVP
Brady 3-1, 2 MVPs
-Funny to think, if Vinatieri doesn't hit a 48-yard game winner in Super Bowl against the Rams, how 2 QBs would be looked at TOTALLY differently. Kurt Warner, would tied with Brady with 2 titles, and would be a HOF lock. Both of those QBs were standing on the sideline wishing. Just wishing. Such a fine line, and often times it's totally out of your control.


Regular Season Awards....
Manning, 4 MVPs, 10 Pro Bowls, 5-time All Pro
Brady, 1 MVP, 5 Pro Bowls, 1-time All Pro
-Pretty big edge to Peyton here.


Statistical Analysis...
(Based on 100 being "league average" over the course of their careers)
Comp%
Manning, 119
Brady, 112

TD%
Manning, 119
Brady, 116

INT%
Manning, 107
Brady, 112 (better)

Sack%
Manning, 122
Brady, 110

Rating%
Manning, 119
Brady, 117

-Both are great. Manning slight edge, comprehensively.

[starclassic tama]

Brady can't finish...he needed a bailout. I don't care if time was limited. Brady needed V.

just stop dude, you are embarassing yourself

[JLEW1818]

numbers are very similar

now what can we do to decide between the 2?

15-4, 3 rings
9-9, 1 ring

lol


and i give it to Brady like i said... but its not like i think Brady is wayyyy ahead of Manning.

Its like a Magic Bird thing for me.

Magic slightly ahead.

[betterstill]

I guess the ultimate tribute to Manning is when Bleicheck went for it on fourth down in his own end of the field in the game with the Colts. He knew they would not be able to stop the Colts.

[JLEW1818]

maybe Bill's biggest coaching mistake ever?

[starclassic tama]

yeah but his defense wasn't nearly as good as it has been. it wasn't too long ago that the patriots completely owned manning, no way he would have gone for it in 2001-2004

[Collier11]

My whole deal is... I have a hard time justifying that Tom Brady is a better quarterback than Kurt Warner simply because Adam Venitieri made his FG and Jeff Wilkins missed his FG.

It's just a WAY too simplistic way of viewing things.

Thats part of the game, you need everyone around you to make you look great. Warner was very close, if only he had won 1 of those two SBs that he lost, unfortunately he didnt

[rawlingsHOH]

numbers are very similar

now what can we do to decide between the 2?

15-4, 3 rings
9-9, 1 ring

lol


and i give it to Brady like i said... but its not like i think Brady is wayyyy ahead of Manning.

Its like a Magic Bird thing for me.

Magic slightly ahead.

How about 4 MVPs to 1 MVP?

lol

Considering that is based on player, as opposed to W/L, entirely based on team.

[JLEW1818]

now probably a more impressive note

the Saints beat Brady, E. Manning, Warner, Favre, and Peyton Manning this year

all 5 qbs have at least 1 ring...

lol... something just now came into my head... look at those 5 qbs, 4 have 1 ring, one guy has 3 rings.. :D

[rawlingsHOH]

Thats part of the game, you need everyone around you to make you look great. Warner was very close, if only he had won 1 of those two SBs that he lost, unfortunately he didnt
That is exactly my point. Perception v. Reality.

[JLEW1818]

How about 4 MVPs to 1 MVP?

lol

Considering that is based on player, as opposed to W/L, entirely based on team.

good argument. the 4 MVPs are very important

but still I'm taking the guy with the 3 rings to 1 ring.

again, Peyton Manning the best regular season qb ever.

but I'll take the guy who is almost as good as him in the regular season, and a lot better in the playoffs

[rawlingsHOH]

now probably a more impressive note

the Saints beat Brady, E. Manning, Warner, Favre, and Peyton Manning this year

all 5 qbs have at least 1 ring...

lol... something just now came into my head... look at those 5 qbs, 4 have 1 ring, one guy has 3 rings.. :D

4 have non-HOF coaches

1 has a HOF coach

Team game. Most people don't get it.

[JLEW1818]

did Brady make Bill, or did Bill make Brady.

now remember this guy was a 6th round draft pick.

[soonerhubs]

4 have non-HOF coaches

1 has a HOF coach

Team game. Most people don't get it.

There's a few of those people who don't get it in this thread.

[JLEW1818]

yah Dungy was just a horrible head coach.

[JLEW1818]

i mean no **** its a team game

big ben needed that pick 6
the colts had a pick 6 when they beat the bears
the pats had a pick 6 when the beat the rams

all 3 qbs had great coaches

[rawlingsHOH]

did Brady make Bill, or did Bill make Brady.

now remember this guy was a 6th round draft pick.

Both. Team game.

BUT... after seeing NE go 11-5 w/o Brady, I'd lean more heavily towards system and Bellichick.

Matt Cassell's QB rating went from 90.0 to 70.0 from '08-'09. He must have lost all of his skills????

[rawlingsHOH]

yah Dungy was just a horrible head coach.

The Saints didn't beat Dungy. He retired last year.

[Collier11]

Both. Team game.

BUT... after seeing NE go 11-5 w/o Brady, I'd lean more heavily towards system and Bellichick.

Matt Cassell's QB rating went from 90.0 to 70.0 from '08-'09. He must have lost all of his skills????


As a Chiefs fan I can tell you that the talent dropoff from NE to KC was substantial

[JLEW1818]

That's another good argument i was waiting for somebody to say.

you have to nitpick when u compare the greats. P. Manning pick 6 to lose the game in the Super Bowl might now be the highlight of his career. do i think that is fair? no.

but now you are comparing another qb into the debate of Manning and Brady. and yes i see your point, and its a good one.

So what Brady might have a better team? fortunate for him.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

...OL..WRs.....I understand bringing that out, but thats a huge dropoff

[JLEW1818]

The Saints didn't beat Dungy. He retired last year.

Manning
Brady
Big Ben

all have had great coaches

[soonerhubs]

Both. Team game.

BUT... after seeing NE go 11-5 w/o Brady, I'd lean more heavily towards system and Bellichick.

Matt Cassell's QB rating went from 90.0 to 70.0 from '08-'09. He must have lost all of his skills????

That's what happens when Cassell didn't get to hang out with Brady. ;)

So to conclude: Jlew says that he understands systems, yet he doesn't even begin to comprehend anything beyond seeing only Brady versus Manning on the field alone, throwing water balloons at each other.

Apparently no one else on the field matters. Apparently a look of confidence in a QB's eyes is supposed to have magical Jedi powers that make WR's run perfect routes or catch balls, creates perfect blocks by an O-line, and forces the other team's players to collapse to the ground.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

not only that, but jlew is a baptist

[JLEW1818]

Brady and Manning's stats are very similar

each have had good teams, the patriots all around a little better

in the end it is what it is. Brady has more postseason success. the only thing that matters in sports. RINGS .. what is the goal of football? to win the Super Bowl.

now I only can put Brady in with Manning b/c he too has great regular season success. If Peyton is a 10 in the regular season, Brady is an 8

[Collier11]

Lets make this easy

If you are starting a team I take Manning everytime

If you are going on a 4th quarter drive in the playoffs it is Brady hands down

Done :D

[JLEW1818]

yah i guess I'm done too.. all good debates.

my final thing would be

"Two guys with similar stats. 1 guy has 3 rings, the other has 1"

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Lets make this easy

If you are starting a team I take Manning everytime

If you are going on a 4th quarter drive in the playoffs it is Brady hands down

Done :D

Not me..I'd go Brady in either situation

[JLEW1818]

does 1st pick overall, and 199 pick overall play in factor any debate? honestly just wondering

obviously different drafts

[Collier11]

Not me..I'd go Brady in either situation

I would too, I was just trying to appease the crowd

Also, if im looking for a back rub I take STEP everytime

[stoops the eternal pimp]

YOU GOT IT!!

[JLEW1818]

i take Viagra

[Sooner04]

Lot of factors that you're forgetting here, jlew. Consider the divisions the two QBs play in. Could beating up on the AFC East have allowed Brady more playoff games in Foxboro? The one time the Patriots had to travel to Indianapolis in the playoffs they lost. Just like Indy lost every time they went to Foxboro.

In a vaccuum, if you throw out all the variables and strip it all down to just the quarterbacks I think Manning is better than Brady. Manning is everything to the Colts. The Patriots went 11-5 last year without Brady, and I don't see any way the Colts could hope to do the same if Peyton goes down with a catastrophic knee injury.

For years Brady bitched about his lack of playmakers. I think it was David Givens and Troy Brown leaving town that made Brady complain to the front office. Peyton Manning just won an MVP this year with two new parts, one from Mount Union and the other fresh off a Mormon mission. The parts are constantly changed, but the production never wavers.

This is a Hitler/Stalin argument for all the right reasons. You really can't go wrong with either guy, but I just happen to think Manning is the better quarterback when you tear away all the riff-raff.

The real idiot in this whole episode is Lloyd Carr. How do you play Drew Henson over Tom Brady? Sheesh.

[JLEW1818]

Lot of factors that you're forgetting here, jlew. Consider the divisions the two QBs play in. Could beating up on the AFC East have allowed Brady more playoff games in Foxboro? The one time the Patriots had to travel to Indianapolis in the playoffs they lost. Just like Indy lost every time they went to Foxboro.

In a vaccuum, if you throw out all the variables and strip it all down to just the quarterbacks I think Manning is better than Brady. Manning is everything to the Colts. The Patriots went 11-5 last year without Brady, and I don't see any way the Colts could hope to do the same if Peyton goes down with a catastrophic knee injury.

For years Brady bitched about his lack of playmakers. I think it was David Givens and Troy Brown leaving town that made Brady complain to the front office. Peyton Manning just won an MVP this year with two new parts, one from Mount Union and the other fresh off a Mormon mission. The parts are constantly changed, but the production never wavers.

This is a Hitler/Stalin argument for all the right reasons. You really can't go wrong with either guy, but I just happen to think Manning is the better quarterback when you tear away all the riff-raff.

The real idiot in this whole episode is Lloyd Carr. How do you play Drew Henson over Tom Brady? Sheesh.

:D

[soonerinabilene]

Originally posted by Collier11
Im not as high on Elway as some although he was great but what did he ever do before Terrel Davis got there?

Elway took some really, really, i mean really average Bronco teams on his shoulders and carried them way over their heads into Super Bowls against vastly superior talent. The only reason they got skunked by the skins and the niners is because Elway found a way to get them into those games on his own. Take him away, and those teams that he won just AFC championships with dont even make the playoffs. You can bag on him all you want with the whole "what did he do without Terrell Davis?", but the truth is he accomplished far more than he ever should have before TD came to Denver.

[JLEW1818]

just imagine being a Bill.... 4 straight Super Bowl losses... wow

[soonerinabilene]

just imagine being a Bill.... 4 straight Super Bowl losses... wow

:( Yeah we should all have an idea of what that feels like. F*cking bcs.

[starclassic tama]

does 1st pick overall, and 199 pick overall play in factor any debate? honestly just wondering

obviously different drafts

nope, it's what you do when you get there. what was sam, a 3-star recruit? brady had the tools to be a first rounder at michigan, but he just never reached his potential until the pro's

[Partial Qualifier]

jlew1818, I read the entirelty of this thread and I'm suspecting -- can't nail down why, let's just call it a "hunch" -- that you'd take Brady because he's got 3 rings versus Manning's 1.

Is that a far-fetched assumption? :D

[SteelClip49]

Brady wishes he was as clutch as Big Ben.

The Harrison pick 6 really didn't matter considering Arizona came back and took a 23-20 lead with just a little over 2 minutes left in the game.

Big Ben's final drive is what defines his greatness and totally erases his non-performance in SB XL. Brady wishes he could be as clutch in big moments as Roethlisberger was in XLIII.

I'll take both Mannings, Big Ben, The Big Breesy, Favre over Brady anyday in any situation.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

LMAO!!

[Sooner04]

The Harrison pick 6 really didn't matter considering Arizona came back and took a 23-20 lead with just a little over 2 minutes left in the game.
Of course it didn't. Take Harrison away from that play and Big Ben's clutch two-minute drill in the closing minutes brings Pittsburgh back to respectibility as they lose to the vaunted Arizona Cardinals, 30-20.

[Collier11]

Elway took some really, really, i mean really average Bronco teams on his shoulders and carried them way over their heads into Super Bowls against vastly superior talent. The only reason they got skunked by the skins and the niners is because Elway found a way to get them into those games on his own. Take him away, and those teams that he won just AFC championships with dont even make the playoffs. You can bag on him all you want with the whole "what did he do without Terrell Davis?", but the truth is he accomplished far more than he ever should have before TD came to Denver.

True

[Collier11]

Brady wishes he was as clutch as Big Ben.

The Harrison pick 6 really didn't matter considering Arizona came back and took a 23-20 lead with just a little over 2 minutes left in the game.

Big Ben's final drive is what defines his greatness and totally erases his non-performance in SB XL. Brady wishes he could be as clutch in big moments as Roethlisberger was in XLIII.

I'll take both Mannings, Big Ben, The Big Breesy, Favre over Brady anyday in any situation.

The 2nd Zero credibility post youve made today, congrats

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I'll tell ya who is clutch...


JaMarcus Russell

[rawlingsHOH]

Elway took some really, really, i mean really average Bronco teams on his shoulders and carried them way over their heads into Super Bowls against vastly superior talent. The only reason they got skunked by the skins and the niners is because Elway found a way to get them into those games on his own. Take him away, and those teams that he won just AFC championships with dont even make the playoffs. You can bag on him all you want with the whole "what did he do without Terrell Davis?", but the truth is he accomplished far more than he ever should have before TD came to Denver.

No doubt.

And I'd venture to say Terrell Davis was the one more 'product of the system' esque, in that equation.

[Collier11]

You mean his clutch is stuck...

[stoops the eternal pimp]

sorry...just shooting for less credibility than the other guy

[Collier11]

impossible

[pappy]

super bowl championships: Brady 3 Peyton 1
playoff record: Brady 14-4 3-1 in super bowls Peyton 9-9 1-1 in super bowls.

yes Peyton will probably hold career td pass record, and career pass yards record 1 day, but anyone who says championships aren't what matters most are just looking for an excuse to say Peyton is better, but Peyton would trade his future stats and his 1 super bowl title to have what Brady has right now.

Also, here is more why Brady is better.

here are some records that Brady holds since a lot of guys are so hung up on stats.

highest total passing td's in reg season (50)
highest total passing td's in a season (playoffs included) (56)
highest total passing td's in a quarter (5)
highest completion percentage in a single game (92.9%)
largest touchdown to interception difference (+42)
most consecutive wins in the post season (10)
tied for most completions in a super bowl (32)
most career super bowl completions (100)
Most games with 3 or more td passes in a season (12)
Most td passes in a month (20)
Only quarterback to start and win 3 super bowls before his 28th b-day
Most career overtime wins without a loss (7-0)
Most consecutive playoff wins by a quarterback (10)
Most consecutive completions without an interception to start a career (162)
Highest winning percentage of any quarterback during his first 100 starts (76)
first quarterback to reach 200 td passes while at the same time having less than 100 ints (88)

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Only because of Adam V!

[Collier11]

ADAM V MADE HIS DAY

[pappy]

I'd also argue that while brady has had better team defenses overall Peyton has had better offensive overall around him. Brady didn't have any wr's until 2007. When he got moss and welker. Peyton had marvin harrison from day 1 and then added reggie wayne in 2001 and dallas clark (who I think is the best te in the league) in 2003. He also has a better O-line.

[pappy]

You do realize that Adam V played for the colts when Peyton finally won his super bowl right?

[Collier11]

youve missed the point

[pappy]

Peyton beat rex grossman to win his super bowl.... Brady beat Kurt Warner, Donovan Mcnabb and Jake Delhomme (before he sucked) to win his 3 Super bowl championships.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

but ADAM V DIDNT MISS IT!!

[pappy]

yeah brady won on game winning fg's but to say he wouldn't have won with a different kicker is asinine

[stoops the eternal pimp]

hopefully you've looked back to see what we are talking about

[Collier11]

come on Pappy, were on your side, pay tention.

[rawlingsHOH]

yeah brady won on game winning fg's but to say he wouldn't have won with a different kicker is asinine

Kurt Warner's kicker missed. Tom Brady's kicker hit.

If the kickers flip-flopped, both QBs would now have 2 Super Bowl rings. And would be thought of as equals.

Why? They are still the exact same people they are today.

[rawlingsHOH]

I'd also argue that while brady has had better team defenses overall Peyton has had better offensive overall around him. Brady didn't have any wr's until 2007. When he got moss and welker. Peyton had marvin harrison from day 1 and then added reggie wayne in 2001 and dallas clark (who I think is the best te in the league) in 2003. He also has a better O-line.
All easily debatable.

[Collier11]

Not really, Manning has easily had better offensive talent around him until 07 where it leveled off.

The Colts have actually had the better D's lately but the Patriots did during their run

[rawlingsHOH]

but Peyton would trade his future stats and his 1 super bowl title to have what Brady has right now.

That doesn't make him a better football player.

[Collier11]

Here is the point that is being missed IMO, Troy Brown was never as good as Randy Moss. Not even close. Manning and Brady are very equal when it comes to talent, the difference is that Brady has led his teams to victory in the playoffs and in the Super Bowl, Manning has struggled at this.

Therefore, Brady is the more accomplished QB. Maybe not overall better as a QB but certainly more accomplished and more successful

[rawlingsHOH]

Also, here is more why Brady is better.

here are some records that Brady holds since a lot of guys are so hung up on stats.

highest total passing td's in reg season (50)
highest total passing td's in a season (playoffs included) (56)
highest total passing td's in a quarter (5)
highest completion percentage in a single game (92.9%)
largest touchdown to interception difference (+42)
Most games with 3 or more td passes in a season (12)
Most td passes in a month (20)
Highest winning percentage of any quarterback during his first 100 starts (76)
first quarterback to reach 200 td passes while at the same time having less than 100 ints (88)

I see much of your "proof" (LOL) that Brady is better is rehashing statistics from Brady's incredible 2007 season.

If you were arguing Tom Brady had the single greatest QB season of all-time, you may very well have something. But HELL, by much your ridiculous rationale. Eli Manning was the best player in the league that year!

[rawlingsHOH]

Therefore, Brady is the more accomplished QB. Maybe not overall better as a QB but certainly more accomplished and more successful

Just opinions.

Is 4 MVPs and 1 Super Bowl accomplished and succesful? Or is 1 MVP and 3 Super Bowls accomplished and succesful?

[JLEW1818]

Kurt Warner's kicker missed. Tom Brady's kicker hit.

If the kickers flip-flopped, both QBs would now have 2 Super Bowl rings. And would be thought of as equals.

Why? They are still the exact same people they are today.

IF IF IF IF IF

my first post simply says don't use the word "IF" to tell me why Manning is better than Brady

:D

[rawlingsHOH]

IF IF IF IF IF

my first post simply says don't use the word "IF" to tell me why Manning is better than Brady

:D
And this relates to my KURT WARNER comment how?

[pappy]

I see much of your "proof" (LOL) that Brady is better is rehashing statistics from Brady's incredible 2007 season.

If you were arguing Tom Brady had the single greatest QB season of all-time, you may very well have something. But HELL, by much your ridiculous rationale. Eli Manning was the best player in the league that year!

I noticed you went ahead and left off the wins/losses comparison. For some reason people on here don't care about those? hmm...maybe that's why they never made it past high school sports. only caring about individual stats and not wins/losses or championships will do that to a guy.

[JLEW1818]

And this relates to my KURT WARNER comment how?

don't use IF's in the thread!!!! I'll ban all of yall


:D

[NormanPride]

jlew is master troll

[JLEW1818]

jlew is master troll

I love Badger!! :eek:


;) :D :D

[stoops the eternal pimp]

jlew is a baptist troll who doesnt even watch football

[JLEW1818]

baptist are 100% correct about Religion. Non-Denominational .LOL

[soonerhubs]

So Jlew would endorse Hybl over White by this "amazing" logic.
Got it!

[JLEW1818]

no you are totally missing the point.

2 guys with similar regular season success, and similar stats = Peyton and Brady
- Warner and Big Ben are not in the Brady Manning Category yet. So they do not qualify for JLEW's next round.

now you have to nitpick, when comparing the two. again very similar talent/stats, both have regular season success.

Brady 14-4, 3rings. Manning 9-9, 1 ring

u got that?

[soonerhubs]

Brady 14-4, 3rings. Manning 9-9, 1 ring

u got that?

Are we talking about a boxing championship or a team sport?

There are more factors than just these two, but somehow you seem to think it's been exactly equal situations for both quarterbacks with one failing when the other didn't.

So did they give the Lombardi trophy to one player? No. They give it to the team, and that's why this argument either way is so completely stupid.

[JLEW1818]

well i do pick Brady

but maybe there really is not a wrong answer i guess...

Sure its team sport... and 1 guy can mess it up for the team... it just so happens that Brady and his team only messed up 4 times, and Peyton and his team messed it up 9 times.

I mean, this Colts team did have the best record in football... why should they not have won it all?

The Pats about won it all against the Giants. Brady did his part to win that game. Manning did his part to lose the game against the Saints.

In this sports world we live in the QBs do in the end get defined by rings. like it or not.

(only when comparing the best. B. Johnson and Dilfer are not in the category, obviously)


Give me Brady over Manning any day of the week

[soonerhubs]

Oh the simplistic linear paradigms of some folks. I wonder what it would be like to see the world again from the perspective of a 5 year old. Now I know who to ask. ;)

[JLEW1818]

i guess.

I feel that I have pretty much owned you in this argument.

all you can say is "if" and "buts" over on Fantasy Island

Since when do QBs not get credited with Wins and Losses? I'm pretty sure that is a stat that most people look at. Mostly in the playoffs

[soonerhubs]

i guess.

I feel that I have pretty much owned you in this argument.

all you can say is "if" and "buts" over on Fantasy Island

That's because I apparently haven't dumbed down the systems perspective enough to give you even the slightest grasp on words such as interdependence, circular causality, or holism.

So sure, I suppose you "owned" me in that sense. :D

[JLEW1818]

well your dog is pretty damn cute. what kind is it? :D

[soonerhubs]

well your dog is pretty damn cute. what kind is it? :D

A full blooded black&tan Basset. He's on my lap right now taking a nap. Apparently spending all day curled up on memory foam takes its toll on this pup.

[JLEW1818]

i wish i was a pup sometimes

[ashley]

I really prefer to ask the 32 NFL head coaches. In my opinion it would be Manning. His team has won more games in the last how many yrs. than any other. Not a one game deal.

[JLEW1818]

would you say that it is a little bit of a disappointment to only have 1 Super Bowl during that time?? I would i really would..

I think its a little bit of a disappoint that we, the Sooners only have 1 Ring this past decade. But I'd still take that over many many things/programs. Many teams would pray to have what we had. Just like what the Colts have

[SteelClip49]

Robert Horry is clearly up there with Russell and Jordan because of his 7 rings. Clearly Horry is better than many Hall of Famers.

Collier...I have had ZERO credibility many times before and still have been very right and insightful.

Vinatieri wasn't really a factor in Super Bowl XLI. He was just there and got another ring. Colts won by a comfortable 12.

[JLEW1818]

dude u are so wrong

Horry is not the Elite player that Russell and Jordan were

so he does not get considered in the convo

Robert Horry was never the best player on his team


remember now what i said

Manning and Brady, similar stats similar success in the regular season. They are "the guy" on each of their teams. So now you can compare them b/c they are the best.

lets move to basketball now

Bill Russell, "the guy", MJ, "the guy" now compare them

Horry??? wtf dude?


is there anything that you don't understand?

[Collier11]

Robert Horry is clearly up there with Russell and Jordan because of his 7 rings. Clearly Horry is better than many Hall of Famers.

Collier...I have had ZERO credibility many times before and still have been very right and insightful.

Vinatieri wasn't really a factor in Super Bowl XLI. He was just there and got another ring. Colts won by a comfortable 12.

youre a funny dude, too bad it doesnt seem to be intentional

[soonerhubs]

Robert Horry is clearly up there with Russell and Jordan because of his 7 rings. Clearly Horry is better than many Hall of Famers.

This. :D
7 Rings are better... Come on now. Remember rings are the only things that matter.

In fact I went and bought a few rings so I could claim to be better than both the Mannings and Tom Brady.

The fact that "Booger-picker" has one more ring than Marino should shoot more than enough holes in this simplistic, asinine, and untenable argument.

It's a team sport, and that means you have team mates and so does your opponent. There are just far too many factors to account for in order to discount all the other plausible alternative explanations.

[JLEW1818]

bro, you have to get in the Elite category before you compare rings

[Curly Bill]

I think Brady is better and the rings are only part of the equation.

[oudruz]

what is their record head to head in the play-offs................

[Curly Bill]

what is there record head to head in the play-offs................

About eleventy-billion to zero!

[JLEW1818]

Brady is 7-4 against Manning

[Collier11]

Boner!

[JLEW1818]

lol honestly i think they have only met 3 times in the playoffs

2-1 Brady

[Collier11]

I usually cant stand Whitlock but this is a good article

Saints trash Peyton Manning’s legacy

By JASON WHITLOCK
The Kansas City Star

Rush Limbaugh was right after all. We, the mainstream media, have been desirous. We’ve spent more than a decade trying to hype Peyton Manning into the Babe Ruth of football.

The job is too big for two Mannings, let alone Peyton, the quarterback of the Indianapolis Colts.

Down a touchdown late in the fourth quarter of Super Bowl XLIV, 5 yards from a first down and 31 yards short of a tie score, Manning tossed his Ruthian legacy into the arms of Tracy Porter, throwing the interception that decided the game and, in all likelihood, cemented Manning’s reputation as a big-game disappointment.

Porter, a New Orleans defensive back, dashed 74 yards and across the goal line with Manning’s gift, sealing the Saints’ 31-17 shocker and permanently scarring a Colts season that at one time threatened history.

Forgive me for not celebrating New Orleans’ amazing victory, a triumph that symbolizes a great city’s rebirth and resiliency, quarterback Drew Brees’ rising star and coach Sean Payton’s fearless decision-making and leadership.

But the story is Manning and the Colts and what was thrown away late in the regular season and late in the fourth quarter Sunday night.

Having turned down a chance to duplicate the ’72 Dolphins by resting their starters the final two weeks of the regular season, Manning and the Colts arrived at Sun Life Stadium chasing a legacy and a dynasty.

The pundits predicted Sunday’s game would establish Manning as the greatest quarterback of all time, surpassing Joe Montana, Johnny Unitas, John Elway and Tom Brady.

On the basis of Indy’s 10 playoff appearances in 11 seasons and possible second world title, Bill Polian, the general manager of the Colts, suggested the Colts were the team of the new millennium, better than even the New England Patriots.

Now what?

No way Brady, Montana or Elway throws the Favrelike interception Manning uncorked Sunday night. And no way can you compare the Colts to the any of the great football dynasties. The appropriate comparison is to baseball’s Atlanta Braves, winners of 14 consecutive division crowns and just one World Series.

Manager Bobby Cox is the face of Atlanta’s “underachievement.” Manning will be the face of Indy’s.

Manning, an All-American at Tennessee, entered the NFL with questions about his playmaking ability in big games. The Volunteers finally won a national championship the year after Manning departed for the NFL.

It took nine seasons, a Herculean defensive effort and three Adam Vinatieri field goals to secure Manning’s first Super Bowl victory. Despite a poor playoff run and an average performance in the 2006 Super Bowl, we, the mainstream media, awarded Manning the game’s MVP trophy.

This season, despite better statistical performances by Brees, Brett Favre and Philip Rivers, we, the mainstream media, handed Manning his fourth MVP trophy.

We love Peyton Manning. We want him to be the Michael Jordan of football, the Tiger Woods of football, the Wayne Gretzky of football.

Manning is Phil Mickelson, a wonderful talent who lacks the killer instinct of a great champion.

Despite our desires, we’re best served looking for our football superman in another uniform. Perhaps it’s Brees, the MVP of Sunday’s game. He tied Brady’s record for completions in a Super Bowl, connecting on 32 of 39 passes for 288 yards and two TDs.

Brees was flawless. Abandoned by his running game, Brees carried the New Orleans offense with a controlled passing game. His longest pass was a 27-yarder. He mostly worked the underneath routes, hitting timing patterns.

Despite a 10-0 first-quarter hole, Brees never flinched. He consistently produced multiple-play drives that kept Manning on the sideline. And Brees took full advantage of the game’s most daring play — Sean Payton’s decision to open the second half with an onside kick. Brees marched the Saints 58 yards and into the end zone for a 13-10 lead.

When Indy coach Jim Caldwell made the ridiculous decision to send out 42-year-old kicker Matt Stover for a 51-yard field-goal try — it missed badly — Brees took advantage of the short field, leading New Orleans on a 59-yard TD drive. Brees then hit Lance Moore for a two-point conversion that gave the Saints a 24-17 lead and put all the pressure on Manning for a game-tying TD drive.

Manning, of course, crumbled. He is not the kind of competitor who gets better as the stakes elevate. He should not be ridiculed for this flaw. He should also not be placed on the same pedestal as sports’ greatest champions.

To reach Jason Whitlock, call 816-234-4869 or send e-mail to [email protected]. For previous columns, go to KansasCity.com

[JLEW1818]

ya somebody made the Matt Cassel reference

how bout Tennessee won the national title the year after Manning graduated

how bout that?

[JLEW1818]

Bill Simmons

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100208&sportCat=nfl

[SteelClip49]

Jason Whitlock should call Dan Marino and ask about NutriSystems.


jlew....you never said anything about the BEST player on a team. You just mentioned that one of your arguments were rings.

Charles Barkley, John Stockton, Karl Malone, Larry Bird, Hakeem Olajuwon, Clyde Drexler, Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen all trail the 0-time AllStar Robert Horry in NBA Titles.

Robert Horry therefore is easily a top 5 all time player and better than any of the players mentioned above.

I understand everything you are saying. Question is, do you understand your own game you are dealing with here?

[OU_Sooners75]

hOYK ****, jLEW is still going at it!
Amazing.

Jlew, are you really Liztard?

[JLEW1818]

Jason Whitlock should call Dan Marino and ask about NutriSystems.


jlew....you never said anything about the BEST player on a team. You just mentioned that one of your arguments were rings.

Charles Barkley, John Stockton, Karl Malone, Larry Bird, Hakeem Olajuwon, Clyde Drexler, Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen all trail the 0-time AllStar Robert Horry in NBA Titles.

Robert Horry therefore is easily a top 5 all time player and better than any of the players mentioned above.

I understand everything you are saying. Question is, do you understand your own game you are dealing with here?

yes i do. Most people realize what I'm saying. You know most normal people who know football, and don't have Eli Manning over Tom Brady, or think that Adam Vinitari is the reason for Tom Brady's success, people like that. Manning-Brady, league of their own with the other great qbs. So now u can compare them.

now your comparing basketball. a sport that 1 guy can single handily dominate on both sides of the ball in a matter of seconds.

I mean just basketball ball for a sec. Everybody knows that MJ and Magic are in an elite group. Horry comes nowhere near that group. He was a role player who won rings with teams. MJ and Magic are now comparable. I have MJ at number 1, and Magic at 4, on my top 10 list, FYI.

Same with Manning and Brady. In a league of their own. Now you compare the two. Postseason success usually takes it all, when two QBs are that close.


However, if you don't think Brady is close to Manning with stats/talent. Then Manning is your guy.

[ashley]

That guy is nuts. Just trying to sell papers.

[JLEW1818]

Good Morning Ashley

[SteelClip49]

jlew...fair enough...this was fun and I think we can compromise obviously. In the process I have been negged (not by you) but by others because I am just awesome but this has been fun.

I still dig you and your totally awesome ways.

[JLEW1818]

well in the end, Peyton really is not a wrong answer. Just not the best answer

:D


now I'm a Houston fan. I hope we can make the playoffs next year. If not i could see Andre Johnson leaving us

[soonerhubs]

ya somebody made the Matt Cassel reference

how bout Tennessee won the national title the year after Manning graduated

how bout that?

Bob Stoops >>>> Peyton Manning

DUH!!! ;)

[SteelClip49]

jlew...fair enough...this was fun and I think we can compromise obviously. In the process I have been negged (not by you) but by others because I am just awesome but this has been fun.

I still dig you and your totally awesome ways.


I tell you what...Houston, IMO, was the hottest team at the end and should have made the playoffs. They were fun to watch.