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Chuck Bao
2/6/2010, 09:09 PM
I never lived in a big city in the US. Okay, I lived in Waco, which you probably wouldn't call a big city. But, Waco has its fair share of big city churches, Baptist churches, some early megachurches like 25 years ago.

This article and video clip is about mega-evangelism and Ed Young's Fellowship megachurch in Grapevine, Tx. and since it is an investigative report from a news team, some skepticism may be approprate.

Personally, I like the megachurches and maybe for all the wrong reasons. I like the preacher that gives an inspiring message and I particularly love someone that doesn't put me to sleep. I hate that nodding off feeling when I am supposed to be listening to the message from God.

I remember back when I was a kid and the preacher's wife told me that if I didn't give my testimony in front of the whole church and the public at large that I was not a real Christian. I adored the woman and I think her heart was in the right place. At the same time I really wondered how the church members or the general public would perceive my testamony that really didn't conform with a lot of their religious dogma. Should I lie and if I did, would I go to hell?

There is not doubt about the appeal of the megachurches. I mean you can go listen to a famous millionaire preacher. You don't necessarily have to do anything. You can get that feel good feeling and then go home.

Afterall, God is going to judge us all. Who was honest about it all and who wasn't? A pretty poor analogy would be that I give money to beggars in the street because I think that one of them may be Christ in disguise. My friends tell me that I am being stupid because they are all part of a handicap mafia operation where the mafia takes their coins in a cup and leaves them just enough to eat for the day. But, it makes me feel good. That is a terrible analogy but it is the best that I can come up with.

So what do you say? Megachurches? Million dollar preachers? Jet planes? All good or not?

http://www.wfaa.com/news/investigates/Prominent-Pastor-Linked-to-Luxury-83600192.html


Prominent Grapevine pastor linked to luxury

by BRETT SHIPP / WFAA-TV
Posted on February 4, 2010 at 10:05 PM
Updated yesterday at 12:45 PM

NEWS 8 INVESTIGATES

DALLAS — Not long ago, the Fellowship Church in Grapevine was one of the largest and fastest-growing churches in the nation.

Its pastor, Ed Young, was making national headlines by encouraging married couples to have more sex.

But since that time, sources say membership has waned and some say Pastor Young may have lost his way — putting himself and secrecy over God.

He's splashy and hip; his message contemporary and cool. His marketing is tops in the world of mega-evangelism, making huge waves with his sermon in 2008 titled "Seven Days of Sex."

But in the past few months, it's not theology but physics that may be impacting Young. Namely: What goes up must come down.

One former staff member who says he was close to Young but wishes not to be identified, described it this way: "The lack of accountability. The lavish lifestyle that keeps increasing, while the attendance keeps decreasing."

Over the past few weeks, News 8 has been in contact with a number of individuals who were once close to Young at his massive Fellowship Church in Grapevine, disturbed by his direction and treatment of staff.

Young recently replaced his chief financial officer and replaced him with his personal attorney, business partner and fishing buddy, Dennis Brewer Jr.

With Brewer's help and a complex series of business creations and transactions, Young is now jetting around the country in a French-made Falcon 50 private jet; estimated value, $8.4 million.

Records obtained by News 8 indicate Fellowship Church became the operator of the jet in March of 2007. News 8 discovered the jet parked in a hangar at Alliance Airport north of Fort Worth, tucked away where only a select few can see it.

Those who hear him preach every Sunday have never been told about the aircraft.

"The staff members are told that there is no plane, and several staff members who have actually been on the plane have denied that there is a plane," said the former employee source.

Young, who declined an on-camera interview, told News 8 through a spokesman he "travels globally offering messages of inspiration and transformation to his peers and other pastors."

He makes no mention of traveling in a personal jet.

But FAA records show that as soon as Young took possession of the jet in 2007, the aircraft logged a week-long trip to the Bahamas.

One month later, Young's jet logged a six-day trip to Chetumal, Mexico, also known as the gateway to Belize.

But it's not just the jet and the international travel the Young keeps out of sight.

News 8 has also learned that Young's 10,000 square foot, $1.5 million estate on Lake Grapevine is not listed on the tax rolls in his name, but rather in the name of "Palometa Revocable Trust."

Records show that Young was paid $240,000 a year as a parsonage allowance; that's in addition what sources say is a $1 million yearly pastor's salary.

Young declined to discuss his salary and compensation with News 8, but his spokesman said the pastor's pay "is governed without his participation by an Independent Compensation Committee, relying on outside consultation with knowledgeable and experienced church leaders."

News 8 has also learned that in 2007, Young sold the intellectual property of Fellowship Church's marketing Web site, CreativePastors. He also sold the church's membership mailing list to a newly-formed, for-profit company called EY Publishing.

Today, CreativePastors.com is used by the Youngs to sell his sermons and books for profit.

"When did the intellectual property, when did the preaching and the Bible notes and the books become intellectual property for the pastor?" asked Ole Anthony of the Trinity Foundation in Dallas. "That's the property of the church."

Anthony says he and his Trinity Foundation investigative team have been monitoring Ed Young for the past three years. He believes Young has fallen into the same trap as many other televangelists he has investigated over the years.

"But now he's just bought in to greed in the name of God," Anthony said. "They are sanctifying greed, and that's what's so evil."

In the past few years, Young and his attorney, Dennis Brewer Jr., have created a number of for-profit companies generating money apart from Fellowship Church, including: Creative Pastors, CreativePastors.com, Creality Enterprises, Creality Publishing, EY Publishing, Ed Young Resources and UOI Resources.

All the businesses list the fifth floor of Dennis Brewer's law office in Las Colinas as their office address.

But the resources used to generate the profits come, in part, from the not-for-profit Fellowship Church. For example, Ed's favorite sermons that were delivered at the church.

SMU law professor Wayne Shaw is a former IRS agent who specializes in tax law. He says it's not unusual for pastors to accrue wealth from church resources, but it must be disclosed and separate from any for-profit business.

"They've been given a very special duty, and they get benefits for getting that special duty, such as tax exemptions, charitable contribution deductions," Shaw said. "I think it's owed to the public that there is transparency that the public sees that there is not something bad going on."

According to Young's spokesman, Larry Ross, "any transactions between the senior pastor and the church are conducted at arms-length with full disclosure to and approval by the board."

No one is accusing Young of breaking any laws, but perhaps he is violating the covenant of honesty with his congregation.

When we asked Young specifically if he has a personal jet, his spokesman told us only that he travels using commercial, charter and leased aircraft, and that he reimburses the church for any personal trips.

Young's spokesman also told News 8 his board approves all spending decisions, and their financial books are audited by an outside accounting firm.

E-mail [email protected]

Flagstaffsooner
2/6/2010, 09:14 PM
Nay, they're all crooks.

LosAngelesSooner
2/6/2010, 09:21 PM
Not just no, but HELL no.

Flagstaffsooner
2/6/2010, 09:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frxHwXbSh5U&feature=related

GottaHavePride
2/7/2010, 12:15 AM
Nay, they're all crooks.

This.

What are those places supposed to be? Six Flags over Jesus?

SicEmBaylor
2/7/2010, 12:18 AM
Not just no, but HELL no.

Agreed.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/7/2010, 12:33 AM
This.

What are those places supposed to be? Six Flags over Jesus?Prolly you shouldn't attend, or donate. Heck, maybe they should be baned?!

Boarder
2/7/2010, 12:38 AM
Does anyone have an actual reason for not attending a megachurch? Any specific reason?

yermom
2/7/2010, 12:42 AM
you know, if they want to run their business like that, they should pay taxes IMO

GKeeper316
2/7/2010, 01:12 AM
Does anyone have an actual reason for not attending a megachurch? Any specific reason?

they operate as a business without those pesky taxes.

they use the pulpit as a sales tool for the books written by the preacher.

most of them preach what is called the "prosperity gospel", the core of which is that god rewards the pious with material wealth in the world.

they are exactly the kind of people jesus went into the temple to publicly oppose and berate for what they were doing (the moneylenders inside the temple using god as a tool for profit).

the money they spend on those massive cathedrals to their own hubris could have built orphanages, homes for poor people, food for the hungry, or any number of charitable, christian purposes.

a lot of other reasons.

mostly because they are vile and evil.

GottaHavePride
2/7/2010, 01:18 AM
Does anyone have an actual reason for not attending a megachurch? Any specific reason?

Heh. Personally?

GHP = not a Christian. I don't attend ANY churches.

Unless they're paying me to show up and play high notes for Jesus. ;)

LosAngelesSooner
2/7/2010, 01:50 AM
you know, if they want to run their business like that, they should pay taxes IMO^ This.

Boarder
2/7/2010, 02:16 AM
they operate as a business without those pesky taxes.

they use the pulpit as a sales tool for the books written by the preacher.

most of them preach what is called the "prosperity gospel", the core of which is that god rewards the pious with material wealth in the world.

they are exactly the kind of people jesus went into the temple to publicly oppose and berate for what they were doing (the moneylenders inside the temple using god as a tool for profit).

the money they spend on those massive cathedrals to their own hubris could have built orphanages, homes for poor people, food for the hungry, or any number of charitable, christian purposes.

Perfectly valid reasons. (Along with GHP)


a lot of other reasons.

mostly because they are vile and evil.

Not really reasons.

See, that's what I was after. Good job.

Tailwind
2/7/2010, 02:20 AM
I think they suck. Making money off Jesus. Blasphemy! I tell you!

Okla-homey
2/7/2010, 07:23 AM
Does anyone have an actual reason for not attending a megachurch? Any specific reason?

Okay. I'll bite. "Megachurches," in order to achieve such massive size, generally must attract huge numbers with popular, "feel good" messages. Thus, they tend more towards very little solid spiritual food that feeds the soul and are more like pep rallies, do not help instill the necessary scriptural boundaries for healthy and righteous living, and too often preach the "prosperity gospel" (a/k/a "name it-cliam it") which I detest because it is not biblically sound and too often serves only to make the preacher wealthy.

Note, I said "tend" above. I'm quite sure it is certainly possible there may be a "megachurch" somewhere that is not any of the above...I've simply never encountered one.

Finally, in the interest of being fair and balanced, let's also be clear on something. These big independent churches get a lot of attention for their numbers and the amount of money their pastors rake in as it seems counter to fundamental notions of a humble clergy, no wealthier than their parishoners, who live simply like the original disciples. That paradigm was first broken by the Roman Catholic church. Even today, Catholic bishops, archbishops, cardinals and His Holiness in Rome, live pretty high on the hog.

Flagstaffsooner
2/7/2010, 08:34 AM
Even today, Catholic bishops, archbishops, cardinals and His Holiness in Rome, live pretty high on the hog.
It pays to belong to the Nazi Party.
http://www.lg-c.dk/uploads/pope-hj.jpg

GKeeper316
2/7/2010, 08:35 AM
Finally, in the interest of being fair and balanced, let's also be clear on something. These big independent churches get a lot of attention for their numbers and the amount of money their pastors rake in as it seems counter to fundamental notions of a humble clergy, no wealthier than their parishoners, who live simply like the original disciples. That paradigm was first broken by the Roman Catholic church. Even today, Catholic bishops, archbishops, cardinals and His Holiness in Rome, live pretty high on the hog.

none of those cardinals, bishops, archbishops or his holiness own very much of the stuff they posess. i asked my priest once upon a time, when i was still brainwashed into believing in a christian god, what all he owned in the world...

a crappy old pontiac fiero that his brother gave him, a tv and a couple pairs of shoes, underwear, socks and toiletries.

thats a far cry from the millions being raked in by people who are essentially a salesman and a motivational speaker all wrapped up into one little tax free package.

i have yet to see a rectory that is half as nice as that guy thats the preacher of the crossroads cathedral's place over on 104th. and even if i did, i know that it would be the property of the church and not said ********* flock fleecer preacher-man.

GKeeper316
2/7/2010, 08:36 AM
It pays to belong to the Nazi Party.

wow ignorance.

Flagstaffsooner
2/7/2010, 08:46 AM
wow ignorance.Stick your head back up your azz before a priest gets in there.;)

fadada1
2/7/2010, 08:52 AM
you know, if they want to run their business like that, they should pay taxes IMO

this, again.

a lot to be said about this. think about the size of the property of these massive church complexes (or any church for that matter). you might have a piece of property eating up 10+ acres (maybe more), think of that tax burden that places on the rest of the community to make up for it.

churches are run like businesses, and should be taxed like them.

do they serve a moral purpose? ABSOLUTELY!!

do they serve an (community) economic purpose? probably not.

just an opinion, folks. churches ARE a good thing. even if you don't choose to visit them.

JohnnyMack
2/7/2010, 10:12 AM
I really don't see a lot of difference between today's mega-churches, operated by greedy scumbags who sell their flock a worthless bill of goods and the catholic churches of feudal Europe.

GottaHavePride
2/7/2010, 11:55 AM
I really don't see a lot of difference between today's mega-churches, operated by greedy scumbags who sell their flock a worthless bill of goods and the catholic churches of feudal Europe.

True. I mean, you want to talk about expensive churches, look at some cathedrals, and think about what conditions the general population was living in when they were built.

Veritas
2/7/2010, 12:49 PM
Nay nay nay, a hundred million times nay.

It makes me ****ing sick to drive by those massive edifices to religious ego built with the misappropriated funds of those who donate as penance for the guilt they feel over their own apathy.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/7/2010, 12:49 PM
It's all voluntary. Attend, or not. Contribute, or not. ..Bane them, or tax 'em out of existence, huh?

Okla-homey
2/7/2010, 01:01 PM
i have yet to see a rectory that is half as nice as that guy thats the preacher of the crossroads cathedral's place over on 104th.

Really? Nicer than Castel Gandolfo? The Pope's summer palace about 30 clicks SE of Rome overlooking Lake Albano?

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/3928/cc937castelgandolfo.jpg

Chuck Bao
2/7/2010, 02:03 PM
It's all voluntary. Attend, or not. Contribute, or not. ..Bane them, or tax 'em out of existence, huh?


For the first time ever, I agree with RUSH. I can attend and give money to any church I want. Maybe the sermons are not so much keeping with strict scriptural teaching, but they are inspirational and make me feel good about myself and slogging away at my job, working for an amoral company and an ******* of a boss. Okay, none of that last part is true, but I can see where some people can feel that way.

Give me a choice of fire/brimstone and everlasting torment of hell sermon and an uplifting God loves you sermon and I will choose the latter every time.

Great point, Johnny Mack, about the grand cathedrals built in Europe. It is true about the abject poverty and the serf-based economy back then, but it is also true that the big cathedral building projects employed stone masons and workers, effectively pumping money into the economy while building the medival equivalent of Six Flags Over Jesus. Exactly when has any religion in the history of mankind never aspired to build bigger, better, grander as a testament to the power of their God(s)?

If I were to tithe at one of these mega churches, I would have serious reservations about the lack of transparency and in the article I quoted in the initial post about the use of a private jet. The flip side of it is that so many of the smaller Baptist churches have so much internal politics going on with the country club crowd and the main benefactors throwing their weight around. I do know that my mom has changed churches several times and, in my opinion, for some very good reasons.

At the end of the day, it is personal and all about spirtual growth. I mentioned before about me refusing to pass by a beggar without throwing some change in the cup. My friends hate me for doing that because they claim that it just encourages more beggars on the street and it just goes into the beggar mafia pockets. They have a point because nobody in Thailand should ever go hungry. The local Buddhist temples, yes they are grand and beautiful, provide food and shelter to anyone when needed. But the point is that I reserve the right to either donate to the local Buddhist church or throw some coins in the beggars cup. I think I did what I am supposed to do and what they do with it is up to them. I am not judging, but they will be judged.

For those of you talking about taxing a church, good luck with that. There is no way and no how that the Oklahoma legislature will ever consider taxing a church.

Okla-homey
2/7/2010, 02:06 PM
For those of you talking about taxing a church, good luck with that. There is no way and no how that the Oklahoma legislature will ever consider taxing a church.

Truer words were never uttered. Particularly since our neighbor Kansas went after Fred Phelps' so-called church in Topeka and got their behinds handed to them in court (pardon the pun).

Curly Bill
2/7/2010, 02:27 PM
Megachurches serve about the same purpose as any other ol' run of the mill church these days -- glorifed social club.

StoopTroup
2/7/2010, 02:33 PM
The Pope has been trying to imform all of you on doing the right thing. I don't really understand what all this is about.

Curly Bill
2/7/2010, 02:35 PM
I'm not Catholic so I don't listen to the Pope. :D

Collier11
2/7/2010, 02:45 PM
Joel Osteen is a perfect example, when asked why is message is so positive all the time he said something to the affect of "there is enough doom and gloom in the world, these people want to hear something good". That is BS IMO, when I am at church I am there to learn, not to be babied. The job of a preacher should be to teach Gods word even if it isnt always positive but so many preachers dont do that these days.

My Church is big but not huge, I love it because of the honesty of the preacher. He flat out told the congregation something ive been thinking needed to be said for a long time. He said, "Christians are the biggest hipocrites because we preach acceptance and then turn around and judge and talk behind each others backs"

Thats what a preacher is supposed to do, be honest about Gods word, not some fluff vision of perfection

StoopTroup
2/7/2010, 03:14 PM
I'm not Catholic so I don't listen to the Pope. :D
He knows. :D

Chuck Bao
2/7/2010, 03:59 PM
Joel Osteen is a perfect example, when asked why is message is so positive all the time he said something to the affect of "there is enough doom and gloom in the world, these people want to hear something good". That is BS IMO, when I am at church I am there to learn, not to be babied. The job of a preacher should be to teach Gods word even if it isnt always positive but so many preachers dont do that these days.

My Church is big but not huge, I love it because of the honesty of the preacher. He flat out told the congregation something ive been thinking needed to be said for a long time. He said, "Christians are the biggest hipocrites because we preach acceptance and then turn around and judge and talk behind each others backs"

Thats what a preacher is supposed to do, be honest about Gods word, not some fluff vision of perfection

I'm sorry I don't get it. Your preacher told the congregation not to offer acceptance OR not to judge and talk behind each others' backs OR both? Whatever the message, you apparently liked it so I am happy that you feel that you are in the right place.

I guess a lot of the debate is whether the Bible is the literal word of God and is infalliable. I am of the opinion that even the most conservative of churches still pick out what they like and ignore the rest.

I was reading somewhere yesterday that Paul in his early letters to the fledgling Christian churches did not really say that women should not speak in church because he was writing his letters to some women who were the leaders in these early churches. According to the theory, that part was added later to support a male-dominated society. I am sorry that I don't have the link and source for that. If I find it later, I will add it. Regardless, Paul was an inspired writer with some of his encouragements and admonishments. I still notice that modern day churches are not advocating his devotion to celebacy or his vision of heaven.

At the most, the scripture, if indeed holy, should be relevant and as vibrant for us now as it was 2,000 years ago. I guess that I am more atuned to message of inspiration and hope and inclusion. And yeah, I am also picking out the parts that I like. But, that is just me.

Boarder
2/7/2010, 04:17 PM
I'm sorry I don't get it. Your preacher told the congregation not to offer acceptance OR not to judge and talk behind each others' backs OR both? Whatever the message, you apparently liked it so I am happy that you feel that you are in the right place.

The preacher said that they are supposed to be accepting. In practice, though, that acceptance is sometimes forgotten in favor of judging and talking about people behind their back. Thus, making them hypocrites.

StoopTroup
2/7/2010, 04:26 PM
Why didn't Woman stand up for themselves in the stone age? Things would have been so much better and Super Bowl would be really cool. Watching chics play football and battle each other until they were naked and bloody would be awesome IMO.

Collier11
2/7/2010, 04:28 PM
The preacher said that they are supposed to be accepting. In practice, though, that acceptance is sometimes forgotten in favor of judging and talking about people behind their back. Thus, making them hypocrites.

^ This Chuck

Chuck Bao
2/7/2010, 04:41 PM
The preacher said that they are supposed to be accepting. In practice, though, that acceptance is sometimes forgotten in favor of judging and talking about people behind their back. Thus, making them hypocrites.

My apologies Collier. You have a good preacher. A lot of church preachers preach - "love the sinner, hate the sin". So, there is no acceptance unless there is full conversion in line with our way of thinking. And, "hate the sin" is effectively saying that there is already judgment and I am free to have a go and can gossip about it.

StoopTroup
2/7/2010, 04:53 PM
What if I don't tell you about my sin and I ask for forgiveness and you don't know I did and then you gossip about how I should change my life but I already have and before you can figure out I have been forgiven and have made the change...I slip up again and you continue to think I'm never going to change but I'm just not a perfect human so I just keep sinning while you keep gossiping and 75 years later you've been gossiping about me and I've spent a life asking for forgiveness and trying to be a better person only to find out that if I had just spent my life being a gossip....I would have never had time to sin and just been able to take the express route to Heaven only to find out that being a gossip and thinking that I was better than someone else and deserving a life eternal in God's Kingdom was really an express route into hell?

What happens then? :D

soonerboomer93
2/7/2010, 05:28 PM
Megachurches serve about the same purpose as any other ol' run of the mill church these days -- glorifed social club.

I disagree to a certain extent. I know my parents went to a megachurch for a while. They now go to a much smaller church where my mom teaches sunday school once a month, and also helps run the foodbank there.

The things they do there impact fewer people, but they're running a food bank. The other church they went to spent lots of money making sure the sermons were televised and putting religious only programming into prisions.

I'd rather they food bank, they be on television, which is why I give money to that food bank every month.

Curly Bill
2/7/2010, 05:32 PM
I disagree to a certain extent. I know my parents went to a megachurch for a while. They now go to a much smaller church where my mom teaches sunday school once a month, and also helps run the foodbank there.

The things they do there impact fewer people, but they're running a food bank. The other church they went to spent lots of money making sure the sermons were televised and putting religious only programming into prisions.

I'd rather they food bank, they be on television, which is why I give money to that food bank every month.

I know lots, or at least some, churches do good things, and I know some people go to church for the right reasons. I'm just of the opinion that the purpose church serves for far too many of the peeps that go is the social aspect of it.

olevetonahill
2/7/2010, 05:39 PM
Coupla true stories

12 years or so ago I was active in a PCG Church , I invited a young family in,
THey had 4 kids, Got em to coming Regular. The Interim pastor called for a Baptism, and asked who all wanted to be Baptized? This young Coupla said they did.

He Did the baptism Then found out they wernt married. He later called the other deacons( i was one ) and censored me for allowing them in .
I said WTF ? dont ya do any kind of Precounciling ?
Any I got my *** chewed and then said F.I.

Another True story was I was in MS. doing Restoration work after that Hurricane hit in 85/ 86 Not sure .

I did ONE job for pay then did one for those who couldnt pay.
I was working on a church , Wont say what Denomination . Any way the PASTOR kept going on an on about HIS church.
Showed the old building and said "THis is where WE started "
Then went on to tell me "This is WHAT I'VEdone .

Showed me some impressive Beams in the Church and said "I paid 36,000 dollars for these, What do think ?"

I simply asked him why he didnt spend that money helping the Poor folks who lived all around "HIS"church?

One more ,
I knew a Guy who never graced the doors of a church . But he faithfully sent his Tithes to a Local church and thot "Im Good "

Rant over.

IF a person can get what they NEED out of any church , then more power to em.


I'd rather spend My money helping Folk who truely NEED it than supporting some arsehole to waste flying around the country.

StoopTroup
2/7/2010, 05:44 PM
So you can go to Church for the wrong reasons?

Curly Bill
2/7/2010, 05:47 PM
So you can go to Church for the wrong reasons?

Most anything can be done for the wrong reasons.

Chuck Bao
2/7/2010, 05:52 PM
What if I don't tell you about my sin and I ask for forgiveness and you don't know I did and then you gossip about how I should change my life but I already have and before you can figure out I have been forgiven and have made the change...I slip up again and you continue to think I'm never going to change but I'm just not a perfect human so I just keep sinning while you keep gossiping and 75 years later you've been gossiping about me and I've spent a life asking for forgiveness and trying to be a better person only to find out that if I had just spent my life being a gossip....I would have never had time to sin and just been able to take the express route to Heaven only to find out that being a gossip and thinking that I was better than someone else and deserving a life eternal in God's Kingdom was really an express route into hell?

What happens then? :D

You have taken the express route into hell and you are asking what happens then, is that your question? Of course I don't know, nor does anyone. I probably have my own express trip to hell just waiting.

Does anyone find it weird that hellish vision of hell was promoted by a church that tortured and drown and hacked to death and pulled apart people who didn't conform to their faith and their vision of God and his retributions in the afterlife?

Wouldn't a fair and just and all-powerful God just allow our existence to be snuffed out without all that eternal suffering part?

StoopTroup
2/7/2010, 05:55 PM
You have taken the express route into hell and you are asking what happens then, is that your question? Of course I don't know, nor does anyone. I probably have my own express trip to hell just waiting.

Does anyone find it weird that hellish vision of hell was promoted by a church that tortured and drown and hacked to death and pulled apart people who didn't conform to their faith and their vision of God and his retributions in the afterlife?

Wouldn't a fair and just and all-powerful God just allow our existence to be snuffed out without all that eternal suffering part?

Let's see what Joel Olsteen does after he's in charge for a couple thousand years. :D ;)

Nobody's perfect Chuck. I think that's what this whole ride is about isn't it?

GKeeper316
2/7/2010, 07:43 PM
Really? Nicer than Castel Gandolfo? The Pope's summer palace about 30 clicks SE of Rome overlooking Lake Albano?

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/3928/cc937castelgandolfo.jpg



The territory of Castel Gandolfo, including the Massa Caesariana, became the property of the Counts of Tusculum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tusculum) and in the early 11th century became part of the Abbey of San Nilo Grottaferrata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grottaferrata). The Gandolfi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandolfi) family of Lombard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombard) origin from Genoa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoa) erected the Castrum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrum), which still bears their name. In 1221, the castle became the possession of the Savelli family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savelli_family); In 1482, Pope Sixtus IV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Sixtus_IV) granted the ownership of Castel Gandolfo to the community of Velletri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velletri), which had been damaged by the Savellis. Pope Sixtus V (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Sixtus_V) elevated Castel Gandolfo to the level of Duchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy) in favor of Bernardino Savelli. However, due to the insolvency of the Savelli Duchy in the payment of huge debts, the property returned to the Apostolic Camera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Camera) on June 30, 1596. Pope Clement VIII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Clement_VIII) then included the castle on in the list of goods of the Holy See that could not be sold

church didnt spend a dime on it, and it isnt a rectory.

Okla-homey
2/7/2010, 08:36 PM
At the most, the scripture, if indeed holy, should be relevant and as vibrant for us now as it was 2,000 years ago. I guess that I am more atuned to message of inspiration and hope and inclusion.

Chuck,

For millions of Bible-believing Christians, the entire Gospel is as relevant and vibrant now as it was 2000 years ago. It is also the most inspirational, hopeful and by definition, the most inclusive message of all time. ANYONE is welcome, nay encouraged and beckoned; to repent; accept Christ as his or her personal Savior; receive forgiveness for sins, and; be welcomed into the fold. Then, on Earthly death, by His grace, spend eternity with Him in paradise.

Honestly, how can anything be more inclusive than that? No pilgrimages, no tasks, no tests, no criteria whatsoever beyond being a human being and believing on Him.

Okla-homey
2/7/2010, 08:39 PM
church didnt spend a dime on it, and it isnt a rectory.

I agree, but I suspect they could meet a lot of needs of suffering folks around the world by turning it into a resort and using the profits to help people.

SicEmBaylor
2/7/2010, 09:05 PM
The Catholic church has had a dreadful past. As corrupt as some protestants are, Mega Churches included, it pales in comparison to the Catholics.

StoopTroup
2/7/2010, 09:10 PM
The Catholic church has had a dreadful past. As corrupt as some protestants are, Mega Churches included, it pales in comparison to the Catholics.

And yet they have brought God's word to more places on Earth than any other religion on Earth. They have gone places others would never go. They stand as pillars for just as many things as they do for their many faults.

It's easy to judge the fault's of a guy that's been doing it for 2000 years than the ones that have less than 200.

SicEmBaylor
2/7/2010, 09:12 PM
And yet they have brought God's word to more places on Earth than any other religion on Earth. They have gone places others would never go. They stand as pillars for just as many things as they do for their many faults.

It's easy to judge the guy that's been doing it for 2000 years than the ones that have less than 200.

That's a fair pont.

Chuck Bao
2/7/2010, 09:19 PM
Chuck,

For millions of Bible-believing Christians, the entire Gospel is as relevant and vibrant now as it was 2000 years ago. It is also the most inspirational, hopeful and by definition, the most inclusive message of all time. ANYONE is welcome, nay encouraged and beckoned; to repent; accept Christ as his or her personal Savior; receive forgiveness for sins, and; be welcomed into the fold. Then, on Earthly death, by His grace, spend eternity with Him in paradise.

Honestly, how can anything be more inclusive than that? No pilgrimages, no tasks, no tests, no criteria whatsoever beyond being a human being and believing on Him.

Did you notice, Homey, that you switched "Gospel" for "scripture"? I used the term scripture as a whole, being the holy word of God that many Christians believe and not wanting to get into the finer points of which Bible that various faiths use. I 100% agree on the Gospels. What Jesus said is as relevant today as it was 2,000 years ago. I have a problem with the Old Testament and much less of a problem but still a problem with some of what Paul wrote to the churches. I honestly don't know what to make of the book of Revelations.

GKeeper316
2/8/2010, 12:22 AM
I agree, but I suspect they could meet a lot of needs of suffering folks around the world by turning it into a resort and using the profits to help people.

pope pious XI decided once upon a time that it would be a good idea to sell off all the church's art assets to fund missions and other projects to help those who really needed it.

cardinals had him assassinated.

like it or not all that stuff the vatican has is there for the duration.

GKeeper316
2/8/2010, 12:30 AM
Did you notice, Homey, that you switched "Gospel" for "scripture"? I used the term scripture as a whole, being the holy word of God that many Christians believe and not wanting to get into the finer points of which Bible that various faiths use. I 100% agree on the Gospels. What Jesus said is as relevant today as it was 2,000 years ago. I have a problem with the Old Testament and much less of a problem but still a problem with some of what Paul wrote to the churches. I honestly don't know what to make of the book of Revelations.

my father, who was an ordained bretheran minister before he converted, is convinced john was eating shrooms when he wrote revelations.

and id like to point out that there are over 80 gospels written about the life of christ that didnt get included in the bible by the council of nicea. including the gospel of his wife, mary magdalane (and yes he was married)

jdsooner
2/8/2010, 12:37 AM
Well, this week I led a class on grief, led music and preached to some elderly ladies at a nursing home, taught our confirmation class, served communion, and attended worship as our youth led the service. One of our young people preached, our youth praise band played, and a young lady sang a solo.

Today at our church our communion offering went to help people in Haiti. Next week we collect cookies and brownies to share with OKC firefighters on Valentine's Day. We will also collect stuffed animals that will be used by OHP and EMS to share with children who are hurting and abused. Later this month we will have a food drive for Skyline Urban Ministries, an inner city ministry that feeds people who are hungry. We will also listen to a speaker who will encourage people to serve as emergency foster parents, since the Circle of Care of the Oklahoma Conference of the United Methodist Church is assisting DHS with finding foster parents. Of course the United Methodist Committee on Relief has received an A+ rating because all of the relief offerings it receives goes directly to the people.

I also know that Southern Baptists and the Mennonites do awesome relief work as well. I am unapologetically Christian and proud to serve in The United Methodist Church. We aren't perfect, but we are trying to share God's light and love with the world.

yankee
2/8/2010, 12:40 AM
I never lived in a big city in the US. Okay, I lived in Waco, which you probably wouldn't call a big city. But, Waco has its fair share of big city churches, Baptist churches, some early megachurches like 25 years ago.

This article and video clip is about mega-evangelism and Ed Young's Fellowship megachurch in Grapevine, Tx. and since it is an investigative report from a news team, some skepticism may be approprate.

Personally, I like the megachurches and maybe for all the wrong reasons. I like the preacher that gives an inspiring message and I particularly love someone that doesn't put me to sleep. I hate that nodding off feeling when I am supposed to be listening to the message from God.

I remember back when I was a kid and the preacher's wife told me that if I didn't give my testimony in front of the whole church and the public at large that I was not a real Christian. I adored the woman and I think her heart was in the right place. At the same time I really wondered how the church members or the general public would perceive my testamony that really didn't conform with a lot of their religious dogma. Should I lie and if I did, would I go to hell?

There is not doubt about the appeal of the megachurches. I mean you can go listen to a famous millionaire preacher. You don't necessarily have to do anything. You can get that feel good feeling and then go home.

Afterall, God is going to judge us all. Who was honest about it all and who wasn't? A pretty poor analogy would be that I give money to beggars in the street because I think that one of them may be Christ in disguise. My friends tell me that I am being stupid because they are all part of a handicap mafia operation where the mafia takes their coins in a cup and leaves them just enough to eat for the day. But, it makes me feel good. That is a terrible analogy but it is the best that I can come up with.

So what do you say? Megachurches? Million dollar preachers? Jet planes? All good or not?

http://www.wfaa.com/news/investigates/Prominent-Pastor-Linked-to-Luxury-83600192.html

that's really not a surprise to me. back when i was in the 6th or 7th grade, i had a friend who was a member at the Fellowship church and i would occasionally go to a sunday service or the wednesday night youth thing they had there. even back then, it never really felt right to me...the services were like pep rallies/rock concerts...and the pastor struck me as a slick willy type...i'll stick to my few few hundred member "boring" church thank you very much.

jdsooner
2/8/2010, 01:02 AM
By the way, the Ed Young in Grapevine is the son of the Ed Young who is pastor of Second Baptist Church in Houston. Fellowship Church is a Southern Baptist congregation.

WildBlueSooner
2/8/2010, 01:09 AM
To me there is no such thing as a good or bad church...there is only a good or bad church for me.

Chuck Bao
2/8/2010, 09:11 AM
Well, this week I led a class on grief, led music and preached to some elderly ladies at a nursing home, taught our confirmation class, served communion, and attended worship as our youth led the service. One of our young people preached, our youth praise band played, and a young lady sang a solo.

Today at our church our communion offering went to help people in Haiti. Next week we collect cookies and brownies to share with OKC firefighters on Valentine's Day. We will also collect stuffed animals that will be used by OHP and EMS to share with children who are hurting and abused. Later this month we will have a food drive for Skyline Urban Ministries, an inner city ministry that feeds people who are hungry. We will also listen to a speaker who will encourage people to serve as emergency foster parents, since the Circle of Care of the Oklahoma Conference of the United Methodist Church is assisting DHS with finding foster parents. Of course the United Methodist Committee on Relief has received an A+ rating because all of the relief offerings it receives goes directly to the people.

I also know that Southern Baptists and the Mennonites do awesome relief work as well. I am unapologetically Christian and proud to serve in The United Methodist Church. We aren't perfect, but we are trying to share God's light and love with the world.

I would like to be a member of your church. Spek.

stoops the eternal pimp
2/8/2010, 10:34 AM
If a Pastor is getting paid a million bucks a year then:

100,000 of it should be going to a ministry somewhere(not his own) as a tithe
No one within his congregation should be doing without
He should be finiancially supporting missionaries around the globe
He should be quick to distribute anything he has to those in need

Some of these churches are so massive that I can understand a high salary for the Pastor...the amount of staff, programs, parachurch ministries they may running...One pastor of a very large church( not EY large) that I know:

When Katrina hit, the church chartered 15 buses to go to NO and the surrounding areas and bring back homeless families...He then provided food, shelter, and clothing for 6 months with the stipulation that the adults seek employment and/or training in a field...He shipped a few back who refused

The church runs a center in Cambodia that rescues girls from the sex slave industry..The pastor goes every other month and spends a week or 2 there to see what needs they need to meet....

Currently, he is in Haiti providing relief efforts there as well overseeing a children's hospital in Kenya and several schools across Africa..

All of those were began after he assumed leadership.

He isn't getting a million but he gets a lot...and worth every penny IMO...

swardboy
2/8/2010, 10:47 AM
The most neglected family in most churches is the minister's....

C&CDean
2/8/2010, 12:00 PM
My take:

"Church" is in your heart. It's not in a building. It's not some toothy goombah who is so slick he can talk you outta your money and make you feel good about it at the same time. It's not in Rome (unless you happen to be visiting).

We've gone round and round this topic over the years on this board. I've been a member of all kinds of churches. Raised Pentecostal/Pilgrim of Holiness, then Nazarene. Rebelled, no church for quite a while, then Methodist, then a couple of the rock n' roll churches (semi-mega churches), then most recently Baptist for a couple years.

Yes, they all did good things for some folks. Yes, they all were well-intentioned (at least I'd like to think so), and yes, they all fell woefully short of providing what I needed personally. Why? Can't rightly say - other than I sat and watched more greed, vice, and simply put, sin than I ever wanted to see. I know, we're all sinners, but I have a real issue with people who stand up and testify, browbeat others into "conversion" (if I never hear/see another altar call I will be truely grateful), try to guilt-trip me out of my $$, and most importantly, try to tell me what the Bible says. I can read.

So, I'll donate my $$ to those I think will do the most good with it. I'll help folks in need the best I can. I'll worship in my own way, and thank God for all the blessings He gives. I can pray just fine all by myself, thank you very much.

stoops the eternal pimp
2/8/2010, 12:04 PM
The bible says you need to come to the altar and give me some money....whore

StoopTroup
2/8/2010, 12:05 PM
I'll hold the basket. I'm highly trained at collections. :D

Veritas
2/8/2010, 12:12 PM
So, I'll donate my $$ to those I think will do the most good with it. I'll help folks in need the best I can. I'll worship in my own way, and thank God for all the blessings He gives. I can pray just fine all by myself, thank you very much.
^^ This.

StoopTroup
2/8/2010, 12:18 PM
My take:

"Church" is in your heart.

That my friend is where lots of folks miss the boat. It's a great thing to have going for you as you find your way through life.

Just letting him into your heart....it's hard to explain...but the folks who have always seem to remember when it was that they accepted him into their life.

stoops the eternal pimp
2/8/2010, 12:33 PM
Well, your hearts need to take a collection and send me some money

StoopTroup
2/8/2010, 12:34 PM
I need you to fluff up the johns for me.

C&CDean
2/8/2010, 12:52 PM
The bible says you need to come to the altar and give me some money....whore

You done slapped me around fo the last muh****in' time. THAT'S what the bible said.

stoops the eternal pimp
2/8/2010, 12:54 PM
I wonder how many of EY's church members have his personal house and cell phone and call him all hours of the day and night....

I swear I get more calls than the police department

Okla-homey
2/8/2010, 02:55 PM
pope pious XI decided once upon a time that it would be a good idea to sell off all the church's art assets to fund missions and other projects to help those who really needed it.

cardinals had him assassinated.

like it or not all that stuff the vatican has is there for the duration.

That was covered in Godfather III I think. Or maybe not. I just recall a Pope got whacked.

Veritas
2/8/2010, 03:12 PM
I wonder how many of EY's church members have his personal house and cell phone and call him all hours of the day and night....

I swear I get more calls than the police department
Yeah, but you're the youth minister...that's just guaranteed abuse. :)

stoops the eternal pimp
2/8/2010, 03:27 PM
Yeah, but you're the youth minister...that's just guaranteed abuse. :)

yeah...Im the associate too now..

I wish it was just teenagers..now its a couple married 20 years and the husband meets a girl on facebook and non stop calls because the teenage kids are spiraling out of control and the wife wants him back, and he's in chicago wonkin his willy... its the 50 year old lady who is afraid she is gonna live the rest of her life single and is sleeping around trying to get somebody to love her and calls me daily to give me too many details....or like this morning, its the member's brother who committed suicide in the middle of the night and needs me to come by and be with them(this one was no bother btw)...And then I'm at work by 8AM at my job because I don't want the church spending a lot of their finances on me so it can be redirected to other areas...

But I wouldn't change it for anything else

SoonerBorn68
2/8/2010, 05:51 PM
Does anyone have an actual reason for not attending a megachurch? Any specific reason?

We went to one of those in Norman. I won't name it because it's not important. We filled out a visitor card. Less than a week later we get a post card from them asking for our bank account/credit card information so they can automatically take out my tithe.

Out.

yermom
2/8/2010, 05:55 PM
whoa

that's gross, not net ;)

SoonerInKCMO
2/8/2010, 06:33 PM
.. its the 50 year old lady who is afraid she is gonna live the rest of her life single and is sleeping around trying to get somebody to love her and calls me daily to give me too many details....

You got her number?

Boarder
2/8/2010, 07:03 PM
We went to one of those in Norman. I won't name it because it's not important. We filled out a visitor card. Less than a week later we get a post card from them asking for our bank account/credit card information so they can automatically take out my tithe.

Out.
They're just trying to make it easier for you, ingrate!


Actually, that makes me sick to my stomach.

A Sooner in Texas
2/8/2010, 09:25 PM
My take:

"Church" is in your heart. It's not in a building. It's not some toothy goombah who is so slick he can talk you outta your money and make you feel good about it at the same time. It's not in Rome (unless you happen to be visiting).

We've gone round and round this topic over the years on this board. I've been a member of all kinds of churches. Raised Pentecostal/Pilgrim of Holiness, then Nazarene. Rebelled, no church for quite a while, then Methodist, then a couple of the rock n' roll churches (semi-mega churches), then most recently Baptist for a couple years.

Yes, they all did good things for some folks. Yes, they all were well-intentioned (at least I'd like to think so), and yes, they all fell woefully short of providing what I needed personally. Why? Can't rightly say - other than I sat and watched more greed, vice, and simply put, sin than I ever wanted to see. I know, we're all sinners, but I have a real issue with people who stand up and testify, browbeat others into "conversion" (if I never hear/see another altar call I will be truely grateful), try to guilt-trip me out of my $$, and most importantly, try to tell me what the Bible says. I can read.

So, I'll donate my $$ to those I think will do the most good with it. I'll help folks in need the best I can. I'll worship in my own way, and thank God for all the blessings He gives. I can pray just fine all by myself, thank you very much.

For probably the first time ever, Dean, I completely agree with your post.
We have a megachurch close by that keeps getting more and more mega every day, with a new campus somewhere in the Houston area every week, it seems. Church isn't church...it's a complete theatrical production, with sets that would put some Broadway productions to shame. And then there's the constant television advertising, which in Houston can't be too cheap. Just think what all that money could do if it went toward actually helping people.

And STEP, you sound like a wonderful pastor.

47straight
2/8/2010, 09:34 PM
<nm.>

47straight
2/8/2010, 09:39 PM
this, again.

a lot to be said about this. think about the size of the property of these massive church complexes (or any church for that matter). you might have a piece of property eating up 10+ acres (maybe more), think of that tax burden that places on the rest of the community to make up for it.

churches are run like businesses, and should be taxed like them.

do they serve a moral purpose? ABSOLUTELY!!

do they serve an (community) economic purpose? probably not.

just an opinion, folks. churches ARE a good thing. even if you don't choose to visit them.


So you would tax churches, but not other non-profits?

Veritas
2/8/2010, 11:17 PM
But I wouldn't change it for anything else
Yeah, I've always held that being a pastor would be an insanely difficult position.

Frozen Sooner
2/8/2010, 11:26 PM
I say we should tax them into oblivion then ban them. Just so RLIMC's babbling makes some sense.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/9/2010, 12:10 AM
I say we should tax them into oblivion then ban them. Just so RLIMC's babbling makes some sense.Yeah, 'cause I'm scared shi*less of that Christian Power! You GO, Mike!

SoonerStormchaser
2/9/2010, 12:27 AM
I like my small, Episcopal church here in Norman...thank you very much. I like actually having FACE TIME with my priest whenever my wife and I need some counseling or other discussion. I think megachurches are ok for those who need just the message...but I need face time along with the message.

Frozen Sooner
2/9/2010, 01:29 AM
Yeah, 'cause I'm scared shi*less of that Christian Power! You GO, Mike!

I stand corrected. You still make no sense.

Okla-homey
2/9/2010, 06:05 AM
I like my small, Episcopal church here in Norman...thank you very much. I like actually having FACE TIME with my priest whenever my wife and I need some counseling or other discussion. I think megachurches are ok for those who need just the message...but I need face time along with the message.

FYI, large churches generally have an appointment system whereby a member can get FACE TIME with the pastor, or an associate pastor when a couple seeks counseling for marital or other problems. It's not generaly difficult to get in to see the pastor within a couple days of calling for FACE TIME. And if it's an emergency need for FACE TIME, you can get in even quicker of course.

JohnnyMack
2/9/2010, 08:42 AM
I don't really see the need of churches of any size. Spirituality is a purely personal journey in my opinion. A religion's efforts at attracting members through offering services or even doing missionary work are not done in an altruistic fashion. At the end of the day the work done is about, 1) solidifying the workers position in a supposed afterlife and 2) introducing new people into the fold who you hope to indoctrinate into your particular beleif system through the guise of the work you've done for them.

XingTheRubicon
2/9/2010, 09:09 AM
I don't really see the need of churches of any size. Spirituality is a purely personal journey in my opinion. A religion's efforts at attracting members through offering services or even doing missionary work are not done in an altruistic fashion. At the end of the day the work done is about, 1) solidifying the workers position in a supposed afterlife and 2) introducing new people into the fold who you hope to indoctrinate into your particular beleif system through the guise of the work you've done for them.

One of your more naive efforts.

Okla-homey
2/9/2010, 09:16 AM
A religion's efforts at attracting members through offering services or even doing missionary work are not done in an altruistic fashion. At the end of the day the work done is about, 1) solidifying the workers position in a supposed afterlife and 2) introducing new people into the fold who you hope to indoctrinate into your particular beleif system through the guise of the work you've done for them.

I wish Mother Theresa were alive to hear you say that. That wonderful woman gave her life in the service of Calcutta's "untouchables," the vast majority of whom never converted from their native Hinduism, despite her tender and loving ministrations.

You ever heard of a person feeling and responding to a calling?

StoopTroup
2/9/2010, 09:39 AM
I always thought religion was designed to try to get guys like JM to quit blogging and build crystal cathedrals of omnipotence in the real world thus attracting even more followers who could later start up an internet blog about how great he is and that if more would follow him we could save all the Hindus.

C&CDean
2/9/2010, 09:44 AM
You ever heard of a person feeling and responding to a calling?

JM had a call to my one-eyed trouser snake. He responded.

TheHumanAlphabet
2/9/2010, 09:44 AM
Nay.

An "independent" church is beholding to no doctrine and to no laws or hierarchy to ensure the doctrine is presented and taught in the manner deemed appropriate for a national religious group. I am not for a vow of poverty for ministers (except for those monks and other religious figures that choose to), however, no minister should have his own airplane, a multi-million dollar house, etc. Independent churches lead to problems - who is minding the minister when your job is dependent on him/her???

JohnnyMack
2/9/2010, 10:32 AM
One of your more naive efforts.

Not so much as you might like to think. I spent a good portion of my youth at First United Methodist here in Tulsa. I went on quite a few mission trips, doing work and spreading the good word. I know firsthand what it's all about. Regardless of the scale of the mission work being done, it still isn't inherently altruistic. I have no problem with people doing whatever they want with their lives/free time. I do have a problem with hypocrisy. I'm just saying we should call a spade a spade. Missionary type work has zero relation to ones spirituality.

JohnnyMack
2/9/2010, 10:33 AM
JM had a call to my one-eyed trouser snake. He responded.

I was pointing and laughing.

StoopTroup
2/9/2010, 10:34 AM
What about the Hindus?

JohnnyMack
2/9/2010, 10:44 AM
Why would I point and laugh at Hindus?













Oh.









I get it.










The hamburgers. They're missing out on the hamburgers. Right. Morons. :D

XingTheRubicon
2/9/2010, 12:27 PM
Not so much as you might like to think. I spent a good portion of my youth at First United Methodist here in Tulsa. I went on quite a few mission trips, doing work and spreading the good word. I know firsthand what it's all about. Regardless of the scale of the mission work being done, it still isn't inherently altruistic. I have no problem with people doing whatever they want with their lives/free time. I do have a problem with hypocrisy. I'm just saying we should call a spade a spade. Missionary type work has zero relation to ones spirituality.

Three hours painting an old lady's house in north Tulsa probably doesn't qualify you to sum up missionary work in any way, shape or form.

I'm sure those who give up everything they have, uproot their family and live in a hell hole years on end, lay awake at night dreaming to one day be as enlightened as yourself.

C&CDean
2/9/2010, 12:42 PM
While we're on the hindu subject:

There's two guys who work in Merrifield Virginia and they're both named Rajendra and they also have the exact same last name. They both go by "Raj" or "Rog" in American.

Anyhow, I met one of them a few years back working on a program. This guy was surly, rude, and a pain in the ***. He was also a muslim.

A year or so ago I started working with the other Raj. Funny guy, always joking around, would hang out at the bar, etc.

Anyhow, the good Raj comes to Norman and I take him out for Mexican at Tarahumara's. I'm pointing out the beef dishes on the menu and he starts laughing. I go "well you don't want any pork do you?" He laughs harder and says "no, I don't want any beef. I love pork. I'm a Hindu, not a muslim." He ordered the pork chile verde and loved it. He also explained to me about the different Hindu sects, etc. Really pretty interesting stuff.

JohnnyMack
2/9/2010, 01:45 PM
Three hours painting an old lady's house in north Tulsa probably doesn't qualify you to sum up missionary work in any way, shape or form.

I'm sure those who give up everything they have, uproot their family and live in a hell hole years on end, lay awake at night dreaming to one day be as enlightened as yourself.

That wasn't what I was talking about, it was several trips to Mexico in orphanages but whatever. It's all the same. The "generosity" that comes from a church, regardless if it's painting a house on a Saturday afternoon or moving to Bolivia with your family, isn't altruistic. Period. There's an agenda behind it all. It doesn't mean the work itself isn't a good thing, all I'm trying to say is that there is a means to an end when it comes to this sort of thing.

stoops the eternal pimp
2/9/2010, 01:50 PM
While we're on the hindu subject:

There's two guys who work in Merrifield Virginia and they're both named Rajendra and they also have the exact same last name. They both go by "Raj" or "Rog" in American.

Anyhow, I met one of them a few years back working on a program. This guy was surly, rude, and a pain in the ***. He was also a muslim.

A year or so ago I started working with the other Raj. Funny guy, always joking around, would hang out at the bar, etc.

Anyhow, the good Raj comes to Norman and I take him out for Mexican at Tarahumara's. I'm pointing out the beef dishes on the menu and he starts laughing. I go "well you don't want any pork do you?" He laughs harder and says "no, I don't want any beef. I love pork. I'm a Hindu, not a muslim." He ordered the pork chile verde and loved it. He also explained to me about the different Hindu sects, etc. Really pretty interesting stuff.


So I'm not the only one who has fallen to your seductive use of Mexican food..

yermom
2/9/2010, 01:51 PM
i worked with this ******* Christian once... ;)

the Muslims i've worked with have mostly been very reserved. i've worked with a lot more Hindus though. and usually they are not... (not in a bad way, just more boisterous in general or something)

C&CDean
2/9/2010, 02:28 PM
i worked with this ******* Christian once... ;)

the Muslims i've worked with have mostly been very reserved. i've worked with a lot more Hindus though. and usually they are not... (not in a bad way, just more boisterous in general or something)

Yeah, but you're working with pointy-headed hindus and muslims. Not only are they stuck in some backasswards religious dealio, they don't have lives either.

I'm going to a meeting in 3 minutes. There will be 2 mulsims at this meeting. I get along with them swell. I keep them right out in front of me at all times. Seriously, they're both pretty cool, but if the **** broke out, they'd be all jihad! like the rest of them.

XingTheRubicon
2/9/2010, 02:29 PM
That wasn't what I was talking about, it was several trips to Mexico in orphanages but whatever. It's all the same. The "generosity" that comes from a church, regardless if it's painting a house on a Saturday afternoon or moving to Bolivia with your family, isn't altruistic. Period. There's an agenda behind it all. It doesn't mean the work itself isn't a good thing, all I'm trying to say is that there is a means to an end when it comes to this sort of thing.


So what?

If someone risked their life and traveled half way across the world to Oklahoma and saved one of your children from death and disease...then after the color came back to your child's face, he mentioned his faith and offered you a Bible/Book of Mormon etc., you'd be offended expose him for the hypocrite that he was?

I just think your wording was a bit extreme. They are some of the finest people to walk the earth.

SicEmBaylor
2/9/2010, 04:49 PM
I've struggled with the idea of religion my entire life. Recently, I've decided that Deism seems to fit me best.

Okla-homey
2/9/2010, 06:58 PM
I've struggled with the idea of religion my entire life. Recently, I've decided that Deism seems to fit me best.

You and Thomas Jefferson.

toast
2/10/2010, 12:03 AM
I'm sorry for the ones who have been hurt or offended by a church. I apologize for the churches that have ceased to serve their primary functions and exist only to propagate themselves (whether they have 50 attendees or 20,000). I too question clergy who have no accountability and accumulate vast amounts of wealth.

However, I consider anyone who lumps every Christian church into one pile and says that they are all worthless and without purpose to be wrong. My experience is that while no church is perfect there are several who are filled with people who love God, each other and their communities. Can you be a Christian and not attend church? I believe so. However, with a good church under a good pastor I believe you can find a greater fulfillment in your life by serving others, worshiping corporately, praying for one another, helping others in need whether they belong to your church or not.

I have no excuses for Mr. Young if the accusations are true. I believe there are those who take advantage of people and tax exemption. But I also know there are those who sacrifice greatly to complete the calling God has placed on their lives. For that I will never apologize nor be ashamed.

Crucifax Autumn
2/10/2010, 12:08 AM
It's so much easier to just lump all humans together and say THEY are all worthless turds.

Bourbon St Sooner
2/10/2010, 03:30 PM
I don't really see the need of churches of any size. Spirituality is a purely personal journey in my opinion. A religion's efforts at attracting members through offering services or even doing missionary work are not done in an altruistic fashion. At the end of the day the work done is about, 1) solidifying the workers position in a supposed afterlife and 2) introducing new people into the fold who you hope to indoctrinate into your particular beleif system through the guise of the work you've done for them.


Yes, getting together with a group of angry guys to denounce dem Jesus folks and putting up billboards to recruit new members is the path to salvation :rolleyes:

Collier11
2/10/2010, 03:36 PM
I don't really see the need of churches of any size. Spirituality is a purely personal journey in my opinion. A religion's efforts at attracting members through offering services or even doing missionary work are not done in an altruistic fashion. At the end of the day the work done is about, 1) solidifying the workers position in a supposed afterlife and 2) introducing new people into the fold who you hope to indoctrinate into your particular beleif system through the guise of the work you've done for them.

Well for one it speaks of going to church in the Bible, you go to church to learn if you have a good preacher and for fellowship and also a support system if you have a good church

starclassic tama
2/10/2010, 03:36 PM
Deism

what does this mean? from what i can gather, it means you believe in god but just don't go to church?

JohnnyMack
2/10/2010, 03:48 PM
Well for one it speaks of going to church in the Bible, you go to church to learn if you have a good preacher and for fellowship and also a support system if you have a good church

It says lots of things in the bible.

Frozen Sooner
2/10/2010, 03:49 PM
what does this mean? from what i can gather, it means you believe in god but just don't go to church?

A creator set the universe up according to certain rules and let it go.

Collier11
2/10/2010, 03:55 PM
It says lots of things in the bible.

Well im fairly certain that even if a person isnt one who takes the Bible literally, the fact that it speaks to and encourages going to Church should be taken literally. Its not like you have to go to Church to be a Christian, it is just encouraged.

I also listed some other reasons why

Okla-homey
2/10/2010, 04:13 PM
Many people, even non-evangelical Christians, get steamed at evangelical's desire to spread the Gospel and convert people to Christianity. Evangelism is perceived by many nowadays as intolerant and bigoted.

Let's be clear on one very important point.

Evangelicals don't proslytize because they feel Christianity is better than other religions, or no religion at all. They proslytize because they feel Christ commanded it.

Us Baptists refer to the below passage as "The Great Commission," which is Christ's own words recorded in scripture ordering His followers to go to the ends of the Earth, which includes our home towns BTW, to convert the unsaved. It relates an event after Christ appeared to his apostles follwing his resurrection.


Matthew 28:16-20 (New International Version)

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.
17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

JohnnyMack
2/10/2010, 04:34 PM
Many people, even non-evangelical Christians, get steamed at evangelical's desire to spread the Gospel and convert people to Christianity. Evangelism is perceived by many nowadays as intolerant and bigoted.

Let's be clear on one very important point.

Evangelicals don't proslytize because they feel Christianity is better than other religions, or no religion at all. They proslytize because they feel Christ commanded it.

Us Baptists refer to the below passage as "The Great Commission," which is Christ's own words recorded in scripture ordering His followers to go to the ends of the Earth, which includes our home towns BTW, to convert the unsaved. It relates an event after Christ appeared to his apostles follwing his resurrection.

All you're doing is cherry picking. That's something that is in line with your particular belief set. I don't begrudge you for using it to promote your set of beliefs, I'd just like people to be honest about the "why" of what they're doing. That's all.

If the founders of the Baptist sect of Christianity had pulled out some old school, medieval Deuteronomy **** and used that as their cornerstone we'd all be running around trying not to get stoned.

stoops the eternal pimp
2/10/2010, 04:37 PM
Who would try to not get stoned if given the opportunity?

JohnnyMack
2/10/2010, 04:49 PM
Yes, getting together with a group of angry guys to denounce dem Jesus folks and putting up billboards to recruit new members is the path to salvation :rolleyes:

One of, if not THE reason I don't belong to any of those organizations is for that very reason. A lot of the people behind these groups do in fact have an axe to grind with Christianity. I'm a fan of the groups that aren't Anti-Christian but are pro-Humanism.

And in case you hadn't noticed, we're not looking for salvation. :D

Collier11
2/10/2010, 04:57 PM
See JM, I think thats where the disconnect between believers and non believers is. IMO and im sure that not all Christians feel this way, but IMO if I were to talk to you about becoming a Christian it wouldnt be to force anything on you but to hope that you can find salvation because in my beliefs, that is the only way to God.

Now obviously I dont go around preaching to people but if someone ever wanted to talk I certainly would.

Does any of that make sense

JohnnyMack
2/10/2010, 05:02 PM
See JM, I think thats where the disconnect between believers and non believers is. IMO and im sure that not all Christians feel this way, but IMO if I were to talk to you about becoming a Christian it wouldnt be to force anything on you but to hope that you can find salvation because in my beliefs, that is the only way to God.

Now obviously I dont go around preaching to people but if someone ever wanted to talk I certainly would.

Does any of that make sense

I'm all for going to get a beer and talking about religion.

Collier11
2/10/2010, 05:06 PM
I have no qualms with that, IMO if a Christian wants to talk about Christianity or attempt to "convert" someone, being a little less aggressive and pushy would help

Chuck Bao
2/10/2010, 05:10 PM
Many people, even non-evangelical Christians, get steamed at evangelical's desire to spread the Gospel and convert people to Christianity. Evangelism is perceived by many nowadays as intolerant and bigoted.

Let's be clear on one very important point.

Evangelicals don't proslytize because they feel Christianity is better than other religions, or no religion at all. They proslytize because they feel Christ commanded it.

Us Baptists refer to the below passage as "The Great Commission," which is Christ's own words recorded in scripture ordering His followers to go to the ends of the Earth, which includes our home towns BTW, to convert the unsaved. It relates an event after Christ appeared to his apostles follwing his resurrection.


That is a very interesting take on missionary work, Homey. I have like four different sets of cousins that are Baptist missionaries out in the field and I have not heard any of them state it quite that way.

But, I like it. I prefer for them to say that their God commanded them to spread the work, rather than for them to tell the natives that they (the natives) don't know God, the natives' father doesn't know God and the natives' grandfather didn't know God.

Probably they were all taught that in their missionary training courses about being commanded and being an inspiration and not being judgmental. I still see a lot of judgmental, though, even from my favorite cousins.

JohnnyMack
2/10/2010, 05:12 PM
I have no qualms with that, IMO if a Christian wants to talk about Christianity or attempt to "convert" someone, being a little less aggressive and pushy would help

No I meant I was gonna try and convert you. :D

Collier11
2/10/2010, 05:13 PM
we can battle it out and see who wins :D what if we leave the bar and we have each converted the other, do we start over?

C&CDean
2/10/2010, 05:15 PM
So, "converted" is what you kids are calling it these days?

stoops the eternal pimp
2/10/2010, 05:19 PM
C11 wants to see if JM is interested in trying fill a missionary position with him

C&CDean
2/10/2010, 05:21 PM
kinky

Collier11
2/10/2010, 05:30 PM
missionary is for the old folks, I like the new, trendy ways of doing things

JohnnyMack
2/10/2010, 05:31 PM
C11 wants to see if JM is interested in trying fill a missionary position with him

You're just jealous because I don't ever let you get up off your knees, much less approach the missionary position.

Collier11
2/10/2010, 05:32 PM
Nah, STEP loves being on his knees

Frozen Sooner
2/10/2010, 05:33 PM
That is a very interesting take on missionary work, Homey. I have like four different sets of cousins that are Baptist missionaries out in the field and I have not heard any of them state it quite that way.

Most Evangelicals I've talked to seem to hang their hats on the Great Commission.

Matt. 28:16-20 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

stoops the eternal pimp
2/10/2010, 05:51 PM
You're just jealous because I don't ever let you get up off your knees, much less approach the missionary position.

Mongo said that was the quickest way to your heart

Chuck Bao
2/10/2010, 06:16 PM
Most Evangelicals I've talked to seem to hang their hats on the Great Commission.

Matt. 28:16-20 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

I am familiar with that passage but I hadn't paid that much attention to the word "command" before.

Like I tried to explain in the previous post, I like that missiionaries would say that they are there because they are commanded to be there, not because the natives and all of their forefathers are/were a bunch of poor brown skin godless heathens.

I had better quit before I am too far in a hole. Thanks Homey and thanks Froze.

Frozen Sooner
2/10/2010, 06:18 PM
I am familiar with that passage but I hadn't paid that much attention to the word "command" before.

Like I tried to explain in the previous post, I like that missiionaries would say that they are there because they are commanded to be there, not because the natives and all of their forefathers are/were a bunch of poor brown skin godless heathens.

I had better quit before I am too far in a hole. Thanks Homey and thanks Froze.

Eh. I'm sure that at some point there was a bit of "White Man's Burden" to evangelism. The Great Commission just gives 'em a scriptural basis for it. :D

JohnnyMack
2/10/2010, 06:20 PM
Mongo said that was the quickest way to your heart

I do miss his chubby little soft hands.

JohnnyMack
2/10/2010, 06:20 PM
I had better quit before I am too far in a hole.

Nope.

stoops the eternal pimp
2/10/2010, 06:21 PM
Exactly

JLEW1818
2/10/2010, 06:23 PM
it does not matter for me. I been on the move a bunch the last couple years. I prefer contemporary music now. I like a pastor who talks about burning in hell a lot, and of course the greatness of heaven.

just me

Collier11
2/10/2010, 06:24 PM
Nope.


Exactly

:eek:

Chuck Bao
2/10/2010, 06:33 PM
Talk about godless heathens. Shesh!

Okla-homey
2/10/2010, 06:50 PM
That is a very interesting take on missionary work, Homey. I have like four different sets of cousins that are Baptist missionaries out in the field and I have not heard any of them state it quite that way.


I'm not doubting your statement, I just find it very odd.

See, the "Great Commission" is fed to little Baptist kiddoes practically with their baby food. It's Baptist doctrine, and is the scriptural basis for the denomination's international and domestic mission work today, just as it has been since the denomination was established in North America in the 18th century. We're generally of two camps; people who accept the vocational call to go on mission, and; people who haven't rec'd that call, but nevertheless are expected to give generously to support Baptist mission work world-wide.

stoops the eternal pimp
2/10/2010, 06:54 PM
As a former member(technically I guess im still in the books as a member) of the Baptist denomination, I can say they do an oustanding job of supporting missionaries

Mongo
2/10/2010, 07:05 PM
I do miss his chubby little soft hands.


Well hello there

JLEW1818
2/10/2010, 07:06 PM
Baptist rule

Chuck Bao
2/10/2010, 07:11 PM
I'm not doubting your statement, I just find it very odd.

See, the "Great Commission" is fed to little Baptist kiddoes practically with their baby food. It's Baptist doctrine, and is the scriptural basis for the denomination's international and domestic mission work today, just as it has been since the denomination was established in North America in the 18th century. We're generally of two camps; people who accept the vocational call to go on mission, and; people who haven't rec'd that call, but nevertheless are expected to give generously to support Baptist mission work world-wide.

Homey, you completely missed my point. Three sets of my cousins are/were in Thailand and Cambodia and I have spent time with them here. Of course, they all say that they were called into the missionary field. Some take more condescending attitudes and some of them much less. So, I am talking about what attitude they have once they are where they are going, rather than a theological debate. One cousin is in Colombia and he largely talks about how they are trying to convert Catholics.

I just never heard any of them say that they are commanded. I liked that idea at first but if you are trying to twist it into something odd, go ahead but that wasn't my point.

Boarder
2/10/2010, 07:37 PM
As a former member(technically I guess im still in the books as a member) of the Baptist denomination,
My (ex) Mormon buddy had fun with that the other day. He has a co-worker who is Baptist (who knew he was Mormon) and they were having a bit of a discussion. He asked what he had to do to become a Baptist and she basically said there was nothing to fill out or anything. So, he declared to her that he was now a Baptist. She got really mad at him and started screaming that , "No, he WASN'T!" He now calls himself a Baptist to her.

Boarder
2/10/2010, 07:40 PM
Oh, yeah. Before stopping the practice, a church my other friend went to had donuts every Sunday morning. Due to the recession and lower tithing, they decided to drop the service, thereby saving $16,000 per year. I guarantee that there were less than 50 of the 1700 or so members who had any idea they spent that much.

My take was that if you're only coming to church for the donuts, you're A)missing the point or B)Not having the point adequately explained to you.

SicEmBaylor
2/10/2010, 08:46 PM
A creator set the universe up according to certain rules and let it go.

There's a little bit more to it than that. One of the first things that led me to Deism was my inability to swallow the idea of the holy-trinity. The idea of the father, son, and holy ghost being one being never found resonance with me.

Another problem I've always had is this idea that one had to be "saved" as a Christian in order to enjoy the hereafter. I think that's absolute nonsense. You'll never convince me that a good and moral human being is going to be punished and condemned to damnation. Which brings up another issue of hell...

And then there's the Bible. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, but personally I think that taking the Bible in an absolute literal context is pretty absurd considering the number of translations, the amount of material omitted, and the general fallacy of man (even if you believe they were anointed by God to write the scripture). I think the Bible is a mixture of generalized truth and a series of stories meant to convey a moral lesson and teach the believers of God the standard of morality by which they'll be judged.

Deism represents everything that I've always felt true about religion. There is a God and he is the architect of heaven and Earth, but he created man as an enlightened and rational creature that seeks truth. I don't believe God sits around passing judgement on our every action nor do I believe he has a hand in everything we do. We're free to make of life what we will and it's totally to our choosing. There is a hereafter, and I believe what comes next is a reflection of how we lived on Earth. I don't believe in hell, but I believe bad and evil people are tormented by a personal damnation...tormented by their evil deeds. Saved or not -- I don't think it matters one iota.

Frozen Sooner
2/10/2010, 08:52 PM
There's a little bit more to it than that. One of the first things that led me to Deism was my inability to swallow the idea of the holy-trinity. The idea of the father, son, and holy ghost being one being never found resonance with me.

Another problem I've always had is this idea that one had to be "saved" as a Christian in order to enjoy the hereafter. I think that's absolute nonsense. You'll never convince me that a good and moral human being is going to be punished and condemned to damnation. Which brings up another issue of hell...

And then there's the Bible. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, but personally I think that taking the Bible in an absolute literal context is pretty absurd considering the number of translations, the amount of material omitted, and the general fallacy of man (even if you believe they were anointed by God to write the scripture). I think the Bible is a mixture of generalized truth and a series of stories meant to convey a moral lesson and teach the believers of God the standard of morality by which they'll be judged.

Deism represents everything that I've always felt true about religion. There is a God and he is the architect of heaven and Earth, but he created man as an enlightened and rational creature that seeks truth. I don't believe God sits around passing judgement on our every action nor do I believe he has a hand in everything we do. We're free to make of life what we will and it's totally to our choosing. There is a hereafter, and I believe what comes next is a reflection of how we lived on Earth. I don't believe in hell, but I believe bad and evil people are tormented by a personal damnation...tormented by their evil deeds. Saved or not -- I don't think it matters one iota.

Yeah, sorry for the oversimplification.

SicEmBaylor
2/10/2010, 09:02 PM
Yeah, sorry for the oversimplification.

You pretty much summed it up. There isn't much more to it than that since there isn't a formal "Deist church" and Deists tend to eschew religious texts.

Chuck Bao
2/10/2010, 09:04 PM
There's a little bit more to it than that. One of the first things that led me to Deism was my inability to swallow the idea of the holy-trinity. The idea of the father, son, and holy ghost being one being never found resonance with me.

Another problem I've always had is this idea that one had to be "saved" as a Christian in order to enjoy the hereafter. I think that's absolute nonsense. You'll never convince me that a good and moral human being is going to be punished and condemned to damnation. Which brings up another issue of hell...

And then there's the Bible. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, but personally I think that taking the Bible in an absolute literal context is pretty absurd considering the number of translations, the amount of material omitted, and the general fallacy of man (even if you believe they were anointed by God to write the scripture). I think the Bible is a mixture of generalized truth and a series of stories meant to convey a moral lesson and teach the believers of God the standard of morality by which they'll be judged.

Deism represents everything that I've always felt true about religion. There is a God and he is the architect of heaven and Earth, but he created man as an enlightened and rational creature that seeks truth. I don't believe God sits around passing judgement on our every action nor do I believe he has a hand in everything we do. We're free to make of life what we will and it's totally to our choosing. There is a hereafter, and I believe what comes next is a reflection of how we lived on Earth. I don't believe in hell, but I believe bad and evil people are tormented by a personal damnation...tormented by their evil deeds. Saved or not -- I don't think it matters one iota.

I agree with a lot that you stated, Sic'em.

I'm just wondering if serial killers who do not the capacity of remorse will get their brains healed in heaven so that they can then realize their crime and suffer for eternity.

Another question. If the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are all perfect, as I guess we are led to believe, wouldn't perfect beings react identically in all situations and essentially be one being? I mean there is no leeway or free will, they always have to be perfect.

JohnnyMack
2/10/2010, 09:19 PM
There's a little bit more to it than that. One of the first things that led me to Deism was my inability to swallow the idea of the holy-trinity. The idea of the father, son, and holy ghost being one being never found resonance with me.

Another problem I've always had is this idea that one had to be "saved" as a Christian in order to enjoy the hereafter. I think that's absolute nonsense. You'll never convince me that a good and moral human being is going to be punished and condemned to damnation. Which brings up another issue of hell...

And then there's the Bible. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, but personally I think that taking the Bible in an absolute literal context is pretty absurd considering the number of translations, the amount of material omitted, and the general fallacy of man (even if you believe they were anointed by God to write the scripture). I think the Bible is a mixture of generalized truth and a series of stories meant to convey a moral lesson and teach the believers of God the standard of morality by which they'll be judged.

Deism represents everything that I've always felt true about religion. There is a God and he is the architect of heaven and Earth, but he created man as an enlightened and rational creature that seeks truth. I don't believe God sits around passing judgement on our every action nor do I believe he has a hand in everything we do. We're free to make of life what we will and it's totally to our choosing. There is a hereafter, and I believe what comes next is a reflection of how we lived on Earth. I don't believe in hell, but I believe bad and evil people are tormented by a personal damnation...tormented by their evil deeds. Saved or not -- I don't think it matters one iota.

Out of curiousity, why do you choose to personify your deity in the masculine form?

starclassic tama
2/10/2010, 09:25 PM
Another question. If the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are all perfect, as I guess we are led to believe, wouldn't perfect beings react identically in all situations and essentially be one being? I mean there is no leeway or free will, they always have to be perfect.

not to mention, if god is perfect, and created man in his image, why are humans so flawed?

SicEmBaylor
2/10/2010, 09:25 PM
Out of curiousity, why do you choose to personify your deity in the masculine form?

Convenience I suppose. I'm just more comfortable with that. To be honest though I don't think God has a gender. I'm not sure why God would need to have a gender.

JohnnyMack
2/10/2010, 09:36 PM
Well hello there

Wanna wrestle?

JLEW1818
2/10/2010, 09:45 PM
not to mention, if god is perfect, and created man in his image, why are humans so flawed?

:D so i guess some big bang and lizards turning into man. created a way for a mans dong to go inside a ladies vag, and this special chemical shoots out of the man... some freaking way finds an alligator egg inside the lady, then somehow 9 months later a baby is made.

now I'm a Christian as many of you know... and i can understand why people may not believe in the bible. But for somebody to think there is not a higher "thing" come on!!!! something put us here.


and like me and u know both know, arguing religion is dumb. b/c it's mostly a faith thing.

starclassic tama
2/10/2010, 10:16 PM
:D so i guess some big bang and lizards turning into man. created a way for a mans dong to go inside a ladies vag, and this special chemical shoots out of the man... some freaking way finds an alligator egg inside the lady, then somehow 9 months later a baby is made.


and this is why oklahoma ranks 47th in education folks...

Mongo
2/10/2010, 10:16 PM
Wanna wrestle?

I'll bring the bacon grease

JLEW1818
2/11/2010, 12:24 AM
and this is why oklahoma ranks 47th in education folks...

I'm not in Oklahoma right now ! I'm in Jerry territory. I'm very poorly educated. and i live off of Obama care!!!!! the dude rocks. i love that he supports the killing of babies and keeps murder rapist alive!!!!!!!!!! he's my guy.. he pays for my gas and electric bill too!!!! that stupid **** should have taught me to spell... b/c seriously i can't spell for ****. maybe if i was black, he would sit on my face .

nor will i be going to where u will be going tho. :)

advantage jlew


BOOMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

starclassic tama
2/11/2010, 12:44 AM
well that ridiculous uneducated attitude towards the foundation of modern biology is pervasive throughout the state, and it's not a coincidence that we also rank so low in education. as for me going to hell, good thing my nerves won't work when i'm dead so i don't have to feel the burn of that pesky fire! i'll just get to listen to speed metal and have barbecues for eternity.

JLEW1818
2/11/2010, 12:46 AM
i didn't say anything about hell!!

now bbq does sound pretty damn good.

but to be honest, not too smart with the books. always got it done, not the best. 21 ACT = not too great, but not horrible

tommieharris91
2/11/2010, 01:04 AM
i didn't say anything about hell!!

now bbq does sound pretty damn good.

but to be honest, not too smart with the books. always got it done, not the best. 21 ACT = not too great, but not horrible

A 21 doesn't get you into OU by itself. I made a 25 without studying a second for it. :P

Boarder
2/11/2010, 01:09 AM
well that ridiculous uneducated attitude towards the foundation of modern biology is pervasive throughout the state, and it's not a coincidence that we also rank so low in education. as for me going to hell, good thing my nerves won't work when i'm dead so i don't have to feel the burn of that pesky fire! i'll just get to listen to speed metal and have barbecues for eternity.

Ahhh, so a grandiose oversimplification of thousands of years old religious values is fine and dandy but a grandiose oversimplification of modern biology is an example of gross-underedumacation?

JLEW1818
2/11/2010, 01:11 AM
A 21 doesn't get you into OU by itself. I made a 25 without studying a second for it. :P

did i ever tell u why i have 1 testicle?

Collier11
2/11/2010, 01:12 AM
he is the ultimate hipocrite Boarder, dont worry yourself with his stupidity

starclassic tama
2/11/2010, 01:14 AM
Ahhh, so a grandiose oversimplification of thousands of years old religious values is fine and dandy but a grandiose oversimplification of modern biology is an example of gross-underedumacation?

nothing he said is a simplification of anything, it's just plain wrong and doesn't make any sense.


hipocrite... stupidity

nice!

Boarder
2/11/2010, 01:19 AM
nothing he said is a simplification of anything, it's just plain wrong and doesn't make any sense.



nice!
You basically reduced the theology of God having a hand in creating man to a play on words. (I'm surprised you didn't say, "if God created us in His image, why do we all look different?" That one works better.)

But, when he questioned evolutionary biology with the basic design theory, which has been discussed for a long time by people much smarter than us, you basically called out the education system in Oklahoma for being poor.

Now, do you see the hypocrisy? If so, just say, "yeah, mybad." It'll be fine. You're not the first, nor the last to do it.

Collier11
2/11/2010, 01:24 AM
Hey Starclassic, im pretty certain that I have a college degree and a good paying job, hows about you? Didnt think so...therefore the fact that I put an I in place of a Y by mistake, that doesnt really hold much weight. Another pathetic, desperate attempt at whatever you are always attempting

starclassic tama
2/11/2010, 01:25 AM
what is the basic design theory? intelligent design? that's not a theory because there isn't any evidence or empirical data for it. i don't really see how posing a paradoxical question like why are we so flawed? is oversimplifying the theology of god. i don't have a problem with the theoretical concept of a god or higher order to the world, and i don't even think it's all that outlandish. but this is apples and oranges here.

JLEW1818
2/11/2010, 01:26 AM
You basically reduced the theology of God having a hand in creating man to a play on words. (I'm surprised you didn't say, "if God created us in His image, why do we all look different?" That one works better.)

But, when he questioned evolutionary biology with the basic design theory, which has been discussed for a long time by people much smarter than us, you basically called out the education system in Oklahoma for being poor.

Now, do you see the hypocrisy? If so, just say, "yeah, mybad." It'll be fine. You're not the first, nor the last to do it.

lol, he might have been just saying how dumb i am... i don't blame him. :D

Collier11
2/11/2010, 01:27 AM
not to mention, if god is perfect, and created man in his image, why are humans so flawed?

Such a smart fellow, you can read the human ideals of evolution and the such but cant understand the Bible, maybe you just didnt read it. For someone who likes to portray theirself as so smart why wouldnt you want to educate yourself before opening your mouth. I mean seriously, this question is so easily answered

Collier11
2/11/2010, 01:29 AM
what is the basic design theory? intelligent design? that's not a theory because there isn't any evidence or empirical data for it. i don't really see how posing a paradoxical question like why are we so flawed? is oversimplifying the theology of god. i don't have a problem with the theoretical concept of a god or higher order to the world, and i don't even think it's all that outlandish. but this is apples and oranges here.

One more thing, you try to prove a point because I mistakenly spell a word yet you cant even properly capitalize, once again, huge hypocrite

JLEW1818
2/11/2010, 01:31 AM
never hurts to give Christianity a chance... nothing to lose!


Obama = Christian
W = Christian

we could go all the way back to Jefferson? idk what he was.. and i might have missed one or 2.

It's just funny. America, the number 1 country in the world. always a Christian leader. that is crazy when u really think about it. it really is.


then again, u can always argue that they really are not Christian, and just say that for votes.

but deep down. i dont like Obama... but i bet he really is a Christian.

starclassic tama
2/11/2010, 01:42 AM
i can properly capitalize but i choose not to because these posts aren't being graded, and clarity isn't at stake without capitalization like it is with spelling errors or punctuation.

my point is this: it is extremely annoying and detrimental to society when religious people or institutes will attack a theory of science that has yet to be refuted for the sake of promoting their own agenda/trying to convert the entire world or whatever. gravity, the theory of the atom, none of those have to put up with it, so why should evolution? i don't think collier, or jlew, or dean are dumb people, or that i am any smarter. it just frustrates me when my entire field/career path is attacked or denigrated without just cause.

religion and science CAN co-exist, and just because someone believes in god or whatever doesn't mean they can't accept evolution. it is a veritable fact that species evolve according to natural selection/modern genetics. every hospital in the country is based on these principles.

tommieharris91
2/11/2010, 01:44 AM
never hurts to give Christianity a chance... nothing to lose!


Obama = Christian
W = Christian

we could go all the way back to Jefferson? idk what he was.. and i might have missed one or 2.

It's just funny. America, the number 1 country in the world. always a Christian leader. that is crazy when u really think about it. it really is.


then again, u can always argue that they really are not Christian, and just say that for votes.

but deep down. i dont like Obama... but i bet he really is a Christian.

I thought Obama was an evil Marxist Muslim spawn of Satan. :confused:

Collier11
2/11/2010, 01:53 AM
my point is this: it is extremely annoying and detrimental to society when religious people or institutes will attack a theory of science that has yet to be refuted for the sake of promoting their own agenda/trying to convert the entire world or whatever. gravity, the theory of the atom, none of those have to put up with it, so why should evolution? i don't think collier, or jlew, or dean are dumb people, or that i am any smarter. it just frustrates me when my entire field/career path is attacked or denigrated without just cause.

religion and science CAN co-exist, and just because someone believes in god or whatever doesn't mean they can't accept evolution. it is a veritable fact that species evolve according to natural selection/modern genetics. every hospital in the country is based on these principles.

Well that is a huge attitude shift by you compared to previous times when you basically did everything you possibly could to make fun of Christianity and put down people who believe in God.

You need to realize that there is a big diff between disagreeing with a career and putting down someones beliefs.

Yes I think religion and science can co-exist, I have always stated that. If you dont believe in God and Heaven and all of that I can say that I think you are wrong and I hope at some point you re-examine your beliefs but Im not ever going to put you down or "preach" to you, all I have ever tried to get across to you is that you should respect me in the same way that I respect you even though we dont agree on this topic. When you put down my beliefs it makes it hard to have any respect for you...get the jist?

Collier11
2/11/2010, 01:55 AM
Two other points

1) I dont think I have ever said anything denigrating about science and if I did I am almost certain it was in response to your rudeness

2) I as a Christian have always said that I believe in evolution to the extent that it was part of Gods plan

starclassic tama
2/11/2010, 02:01 AM
fair enough, good posts. i guess i'm just (gulp) getting to that age where i'm starting to realize the error of my ways and starting to understand religion's place in the world more. in the past, i would take a perceived disagreement as an attack on my beliefs and feel the need to up the ante and insult or sling more mud. part of growing up, i guess. is it football season yet :D

tommieharris91
2/11/2010, 02:01 AM
i can properly capitalize but i choose not to because these posts aren't being graded, and clarity isn't at stake without capitalization like it is with spelling errors or punctuation.

If you're going to attack someone's misspelling, you should kinda watch your grammar yourself.


my point is this: it is extremely annoying and detrimental to society when religious people or institutes will attack a theory of science that has yet to be refuted for the sake of promoting their own agenda/trying to convert the entire world or whatever. gravity, the theory of the atom, none of those have to put up with it, so why should evolution? i don't think collier, or jlew, or dean are dumb people, or that i am any smarter. it just frustrates me when my entire field/career path is attacked or denigrated without just cause.
It's mostly that evolution doesn't fit with what's described in the book of Genesis. Thus, theories like intelligent design come out of Christian think tanks. Such a theory (at least the way I understand it) merges both Darwinian evolution and the Bible into something that can coexist. Yes, it is going to be tough to refute something that borders on philosophy. However, there is much evidence against the notion that a superior being created Earth in 6 human days.

religion and science CAN co-exist, and just because someone believes in god or whatever doesn't mean they can't accept evolution. it is a veritable fact that species evolve according to natural selection/modern genetics. every hospital in the country is based on these principles.
It really depends on how much one clings to the early part of Genesis that determines whether they accept evolution or not (despite what I'm writing, I do). Also, evolution is not scientific law unless I missed something.

Collier11
2/11/2010, 02:06 AM
fair enough, good posts. i guess i'm just (gulp) getting to that age where i'm starting to realize the error of my ways and starting to understand religion's place in the world more. in the past, i would take a perceived disagreement as an attack on my beliefs and feel the need to up the ante and insult or sling more mud. part of growing up, i guess. is it football season yet :D

It never hurts to examine the other side, whether you are looking to possibly change or just wanting to understand it more. Im sure back in the day I went off on alot of people that didnt believe in God but you start to realize that it never helps, on either side.

It certainly needs to be football season, not a whole lot to be excited about right now with our Sooner hoops team but im still holding out hope for a Big 12 title run

starclassic tama
2/11/2010, 02:07 AM
Also, evolution is not scientific law unless I missed something.

good post, except for this part.

A theory never becomes a law. In fact, if there was a hierarchy of science, theories would be higher than laws. There is nothing higher, or better, than a theory. Laws describe things, theories explain them. An example will help you to understand this. There's a law of gravity, which is the description of gravity. It basically says that if you let go of something it'll fall. It doesn't say why. Then there's the theory of gravity, which is an attempt to explain why. Actually, Newton's Theory of Gravity did a pretty good job, but Einstein's Theory of Relativity does a better job of explaining it. These explanations are called theories, and will always be theories. They can't be changed into laws, because laws are different things. Laws describe, and theories explain.

http://www.notjustatheory.com/

tommieharris91
2/11/2010, 02:14 AM
Laws describe, and theories explain.

That's about as simple as that gets. Thank you.

Collier11
2/11/2010, 02:18 AM
Star, if you ever want to understand God and Faith all in one just look at Tommie, see, he is a Cubs fan. Tommie knows that the Cubs suck every year but he has faith, he has faith that one day God will grant him happiness. Now to us, that seems silly because well, the Cubs are the Cubs and we all know they suck and while there is no proof that the Cubs will ever win another World Series, Tommie has that faith because God wouldnt let him suffer a complete lifetime of Cubs failure. :D

tommieharris91
2/11/2010, 02:25 AM
Star, if you ever want to understand God and Faith all in one just look at Tommie, see, he is a Cubs fan. Tommie knows that the Cubs suck every year but he has faith, he has faith that one day God will grant him happiness. Now to us, that seems silly because well, the Cubs are the Cubs and we all know they suck and while there is no proof that the Cubs will ever win another World Series, Tommie has that faith because God wouldnt let him suffer a complete lifetime of Cubs failure. :D

God let my 100yr old great-grandma suffer through it. She never got to see a Cubs WS win.

The rest of the NC Central will love Carlos Silva next season.

Collier11
2/11/2010, 02:26 AM
Im sure we will, especially my boys Pujols and Holliday ;)

tommieharris91
2/11/2010, 02:40 AM
Im sure we will, especially my boys Pujols and Holliday ;)

That was kinda my point. BP pitchers throw better than him. And all in the name of getting rid of Milton Bradley.

Collier11
2/11/2010, 02:53 AM
and to think I wanted him a few years back, im glad the Cards GM didnt call me back

Okla-homey
2/11/2010, 06:55 AM
i can properly capitalize but i choose not to because these posts aren't being graded, and clarity isn't at stake without capitalization like it is with spelling errors or punctuation.
Interesting point of view. At its core, narcissistic.

SicEmBaylor
2/11/2010, 06:58 AM
Interesting point of view. At its core, narcissistic.

It's also poorly punctuated.

Okla-homey
2/11/2010, 07:04 AM
There's a little bit more to it than that. One of the first things that led me to Deism was my inability to swallow the idea of the holy-trinity. The idea of the father, son, and holy ghost being one being never found resonance with me.

Another problem I've always had is this idea that one had to be "saved" as a Christian in order to enjoy the hereafter. I think that's absolute nonsense. You'll never convince me that a good and moral human being is going to be punished and condemned to damnation. Which brings up another issue of hell...

And then there's the Bible. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, but personally I think that taking the Bible in an absolute literal context is pretty absurd considering the number of translations, the amount of material omitted, and the general fallacy of man (even if you believe they were anointed by God to write the scripture). I think the Bible is a mixture of generalized truth and a series of stories meant to convey a moral lesson and teach the believers of God the standard of morality by which they'll be judged.

Deism represents everything that I've always felt true about religion. There is a God and he is the architect of heaven and Earth, but he created man as an enlightened and rational creature that seeks truth. I don't believe God sits around passing judgement on our every action nor do I believe he has a hand in everything we do. We're free to make of life what we will and it's totally to our choosing. There is a hereafter, and I believe what comes next is a reflection of how we lived on Earth. I don't believe in hell, but I believe bad and evil people are tormented by a personal damnation...tormented by their evil deeds. Saved or not -- I don't think it matters one iota.

I'd categorize the views above as more agnostic than deist.

SicEmBaylor
2/11/2010, 07:08 AM
I'd categorize the views above as more agnostic than deist.

It's not agnostic at all. I firmly believe in the power and existence of God.

JohnnyMack
2/11/2010, 08:46 AM
SicEm, perhaps the deity you're seeking can be found with a trip the church of the FSM? Would you like to discuss it further with me? Can I provide you with some literature?

Frozen Sooner
2/11/2010, 09:02 AM
SicEm, perhaps the deity you're seeking can be found with a trip the church of the FSM? Would you like to discuss it further with me? Can I provide you with some literature?

You have truly become a colander of men, straining the water from the pasta of their soul.

Okla-homey
2/11/2010, 10:16 AM
It's not agnostic at all. I firmly believe in the power and existence of God.

Than why would you have difficulty in accepting an onmipotent God in all His divine majesty would be incapable of existing in multiple forms, i.e. the Holy Trinity.

BTW, you're in good company. True story: St Patrick, who ministered to the ancient Celts in that formerly god-forsaken bog we now call Ireland, used the three leafed shamrock as a model to make the point that a single thing can have three aspects and still be a single thing. Apparently, those bog-trotting heathens got it, and the shamrock became one of their national symbols.

Boarder
2/11/2010, 10:26 AM
what is the basic design theory? intelligent design? that's not a theory because there isn't any evidence or empirical data for it. i don't really see how posing a paradoxical question like why are we so flawed? is oversimplifying the theology of god. i don't have a problem with the theoretical concept of a god or higher order to the world, and i don't even think it's all that outlandish. but this is apples and oranges here.
No, the design theory is not the intelligent design theory. It basically says that everything in nature shows a design to it and that it would be difficult to happen just by chance. That's what Jlew meant by his crazy talk. Hehe

I can't remember who started it but Paley's watchmaker is the most famous of them. There are arguments against it, sure, but it's a fairly strong argument for the existence of "a" God. It's of
the telelogical argument family.

Boarder
2/11/2010, 10:38 AM
I should have said design argument instead of design theory the first time. Mybad.

Bourbon St Sooner
2/11/2010, 11:08 AM
Well, I became Catholic last year for many reasons, but the main thing I don't buy with Catholic othodoxy is the belief in Mary as an ever-lasting virgin. I mean Joseph was a good man, but I don't think he was THAT good of a man.

Frozen Sooner
2/11/2010, 11:13 AM
No, the design theory is not the intelligent design theory. It basically says that everything in nature shows a design to it and that it would be difficult to happen just by chance. That's what Jlew meant by his crazy talk. Hehe

I can't remember who started it but Paley's watchmaker is the most famous of them. There are arguments against it, sure, but it's a fairly strong argument for the existence of "a" God. It's of
the telelogical argument family.

Evolution by natural selection does not presuppose that everything happened by pure chance. The theory is that chance is constrained by survivability, which is quite a different proposition.

Boarder
2/11/2010, 11:24 AM
Evolution by natural selection does not presuppose that everything happened by pure chance. The theory is that chance is constrained by survivability, which is quite a different proposition.
Evolution is not necessarily incompatible with the design argument, which would say that that survivability is part of an overall design by some sort of being.

The main argument against the overall design argument is that there could be an infinite number of universes. In this case, ours may not have such a high amount of improbability that everything came about as it did.

Frozen Sooner
2/11/2010, 11:29 AM
Evolution is not necessarily incompatible with the design argument, which would say that that survivability is part of an overall design by some sort of being.

The main argument against the overall design argument is that there could be an infinite number of universes. In this case, ours may not have such a high amount of improbability that everything came about as it did.

Not just an infinite number of universes, but an infinite number of worlds in this universe where the conditions needed came together. We don't actually know how improbable the conditions precedent were.

JohnnyMack
2/11/2010, 11:29 AM
So how did Noah feed the polar bears anyways? And where did he store the lampriform fish?

Okla-homey
2/11/2010, 12:07 PM
So how did Noah feed the polar bears anyways? And where did he store the lampriform fish?

Keep joking Buckwheat. Fortunately for you, we don't kill anti-religious bigots here in the West.

We just let the Big Guy take care of it in His perfect time.;)

Boarder
2/11/2010, 01:08 PM
Not just an infinite number of universes, but an infinite number of worlds in this universe where the conditions needed came together. We don't actually know how improbable the conditions precedent were.
But it seems to be the current theory that the universe is not infinite (and is expanding). If this is true, there couldn't be an infinite number of worlds (just a metric buttload). So, the currently most highly accepted argument from design carries it all the way out to universe level. The universe shows design (of some sort). Unless there are infinite universes, then you lose the probability.

C&CDean
2/11/2010, 01:32 PM
That's it mister. You are NOT going back to that school and learn any more about theology, etc. Running around here spouting all this brainy stuff. Geez.

Frozen Sooner
2/11/2010, 02:06 PM
But it seems to be the current theory that the universe is not infinite (and is expanding). If this is true, there couldn't be an infinite number of worlds (just a metric buttload). So, the currently most highly accepted argument from design carries it all the way out to universe level. The universe shows design (of some sort). Unless there are infinite universes, then you lose the probability.

I don't know that characterization of the currently accepted theory is correct, though Ike would have to chime in. Yes, the universe is expanding, but by definition is also infinite. At some point, our language breaks down explaining it.

stoops the eternal pimp
2/11/2010, 02:08 PM
have you tried pig latin?

starclassic tama
2/11/2010, 02:12 PM
i never understood why the probability of things ending up the way they did was important at all. evolution is deterministic. when i walk to my car to go to class, the chances of me walking any one path are extremely low if you were to measure each of my steps out to the nearest micrometer. that doesn't make it a miracle. however i did indeed arrive at my car, so i HAD to walk along one of the almost infinite probable paths.


Interesting point of view. At its core, narcissistic.

if you say so, more like i don't feel like wasting my time capitalizing or using all the little grammar laws because they aren't very important on a message board.

Frozen Sooner
2/11/2010, 02:21 PM
i never understood why the probability of things ending up the way they did was important at all. evolution is deterministic. when i walk to my car to go to class, the chances of me walking any one path are extremely low if you were to measure each of my steps out to the nearest micrometer. that doesn't make it a miracle. however i did indeed arrive at my car, so i HAD to walk along one of the almost infinite probable paths.

This is an excellent point. Put another way, it is useless to talk about probability of a thing happening that has.

JohnnyMack
2/11/2010, 02:26 PM
Zr7wNQw12l8

JohnnyMack
2/11/2010, 02:31 PM
fgg2tpUVbXQ

Boarder
2/11/2010, 02:33 PM
Pshhht, we don't learn no theology at all. Hehe

the reason you discuss probability is that when it becomes so freaking low and still happens, it leads you to try to explain it by other means. It's called being epistemically responsible. How's that word for you, Dean-o?

stoops the eternal pimp
2/11/2010, 02:35 PM
sounds like what Mongo has

JohnnyMack
2/11/2010, 02:37 PM
sounds like what Mongo has

A tiny penis?

stoops the eternal pimp
2/11/2010, 02:38 PM
i found it to be small yet elogant

Boarder
2/11/2010, 02:46 PM
To tama, the design argument is not so much about explaing how each design came about, it's about showing that the universe, as a collection of all contingent beings, shows some aspects of being designed, assuming this is the only one. So really, for this argument, whether or not the universe is infinite or not doesn't apply. If it were infinite, that would be a criticism against the "Earth" as a one and only argument, but that's not what it is.

Welcome to Philosophy of Religion 2400.

JohnnyMack
2/11/2010, 02:52 PM
All I know is that somewhere in one of those hundreds of billions of galaxies there has to be a solar system out there with a planet within it that has at minimum some multi-celled organism mindlessly living in a vast ocean. If not, this god you speak of is the most inefficient thing ever conceived.

C&CDean
2/11/2010, 03:29 PM
Well He created your ***, so I guess you're right.

JohnnyMack
2/11/2010, 03:39 PM
Well He created your ***, so I guess you're right.

Stop looking at my ***.

C&CDean
2/11/2010, 03:48 PM
I can't. It's so..............deep............and wide.... (hey, I had to keep it in religious vein, know what I mean?)

SicEmBaylor
2/11/2010, 06:06 PM
Than why would you have difficulty in accepting an onmipotent God in all His divine majesty would be incapable of existing in multiple forms, i.e. the Holy Trinity.

Because, you're assuming I accept several central tenants of Christianity in regards to the other 2/3 of the trinity. Deism isn't a Christian denomination. It's not really a denomination at all....

In any case, you seem to have some confused notions at to what exactly Deism is. Agnostics are essentially open-minded atheists that believe in the possibility that God exists, but they point to a lack of proof or evidence of his existence.

Deists believe in God. Deists believe he is the creator of all things.

Here's an analogy: Think of God as a ship builder who designed and built a magnificent vessel. Now, ship builders don't actually captain or pilot the ships they build...they just build them. Sailing the ship is left to the Captain and crew. If they wreck the ship then that's their fault not the ship builder's.

Most Christians believe God is in the pilot house actually steering the ship. Deists believe he built the ship and sent it on its way and what happens to the ship is entirely up to those sailing it.

In any case, Deists are not agnostic. But you also shouldn't consider Deism to be a branch of Christianity...it isn't.

JohnnyMack
2/11/2010, 06:12 PM
Because, you're assuming I accept several central tenants of Christianity in regards to the other 2/3 of the trinity. Deism isn't a Christian denomination. It's not really a denomination at all....

In any case, you seem to have some confused notions at to what exactly Deism is. Agnostics are essentially open-minded atheists that believe in the possibility that God exists, but they point to a lack of proof or evidence of his existence.

Deists believe in God. Deists believe he is the creator of all things.

Here's an analogy: Think of God as a ship builder who designed and built a magnificent vessel. Now, ship builders don't actually captain or pilot the ships they build...they just build them. Sailing the ship is left to the Captain and crew. If they wreck the ship then that's their fault not the ship builder's.

Most Christians believe God is in the pilot house actually steering the ship. Deists believe he built the ship and sent it on its way and what happens to the ship is entirely up to those sailing it.

In any case, Deists are not agnostic. But you also shouldn't consider Deism to be a branch of Christianity...it isn't.

What was his motivation to create it?

SicEmBaylor
2/11/2010, 06:13 PM
What was his motivation to create it?

You've got me. :shrug:

olevetonahill
2/11/2010, 06:22 PM
What was his motivation to create it?

He needed a place put **** when his wife made him clean out the garage.

SicEmBaylor
2/11/2010, 06:25 PM
He needed a place put **** when his wife made him clean out the garage.

That's kind of a scary thought. If you think God can be vengeful then his wife must really be something...

Okla-homey
2/11/2010, 06:53 PM
That's kind of a scary thought. If you think God can be vengeful then his wife must really be something...

For the record, God does not have a wife. I know, because He couldn't possibly listen to billions of prayers daily and her yacking.;)

Okla-homey
2/11/2010, 06:53 PM
He needed a place put **** when his wife made him clean out the garage.

spek.

Okla-homey
2/11/2010, 06:57 PM
In any case, Deists are not agnostic. But you also shouldn't consider Deism to be a branch of Christianity...it isn't.

I don't. I've also seen Thomas Jefferson's "bible" on display at Monticello that he kluged together by taking scriptures he liked and pasting them into a bound volume, while ignoring those he didn't. Frankly, that makes him more of an Episcopalian than a self-confessed deist, but there you have it.:D

GKeeper316
2/11/2010, 09:37 PM
I don't. I've also seen Thomas Jefferson's "bible" on display at Monticello that he kluged together by taking scriptures he liked and pasting them into a bound volume, while ignoring those he didn't. Frankly, that makes him more of an Episcopalian than a self-confessed deist, but there you have it.:D

you could lump all protestants in there, as they left out a good portion of the old testament when they decided their bible.

Okla-homey
2/12/2010, 05:59 AM
you could lump all protestants in there, as they left out a good portion of the old testament when they decided their bible.

wha? old testament?

If you are referring to the so-called books of the Septuagint, they were a Roman Catholic invention and do not appear in Hebrew scripture.

The 1611 King James Version, on which all English language bibles used by Protestants are based, translated Hebrew scripture into English.

And if you don't start using your "shift" key in your posts, I'm going to put you on "ignore."

GKeeper316
2/12/2010, 11:17 AM
well since the catholic bible was the first bible, it stands to reason that all the books int he bible are roman catholic inventions, doesnt it?

and no i wont use my shift key for you or anyone else :P

C&CDean
2/12/2010, 11:25 AM
and no i wont use my shift key for you or anyone else :P

Ignorance is bliss.

GKeeper316
2/12/2010, 01:41 PM
Ignorance is bliss.

you could go with that...

or it could be because for the last 10 years of my professional life ive worked in a business where we keep caps lock on all the time because caps are easier to read on a teleprompter and have gotten out of the habit of using a shift key for anything that isnt a formal letter.

but it could be ignorance.

starclassic tama
2/12/2010, 01:52 PM
lol pwn

C&CDean
2/12/2010, 02:17 PM
Laziness is no excuse for typing like an illiterate.

Curly Bill
2/12/2010, 02:19 PM
What if he actually is illiterate? Now you've gone and hurt his feelers.

yermom
2/12/2010, 02:19 PM
that's only a little bit of a ad hominem :D

C&CDean
2/12/2010, 02:23 PM
I like hominy.

crawfish
2/12/2010, 02:24 PM
I'm very late to the party here...

I belong to a church that some would call a megachurch - 5,000 members. Less than half the size of Ed Young's place and Gateway church in Grapevine, but huge nonetheless. However, it is a church that challenges us to give, to grow and to think. There is no "prosperity gospel" preached. Christianity is about faith, service and community, and everything they do is to support one of those goals. They recently gave 1.5 million to assist mission works worldwide, and another 200K specifically for Haiti relief. They do a tremendous amount of good for the community they live in. This type of service is simply not possible in a world of small churches, or of people "worshiping God in their own way".

FYI, I am a conservative evangelical Christian who accepts evolution, a billions-year-old universe and a non-concordist view of the bible.

Frozen Sooner
2/12/2010, 02:32 PM
I'm very late to the party here...

I belong to a church that some would call a megachurch - 5,000 members. Less than half the size of Ed Young's place and Gateway church in Grapevine, but huge nonetheless. However, it is a church that challenges us to give, to grow and to think. There is no "prosperity gospel" preached. Christianity is about faith, service and community, and everything they do is to support one of those goals. They recently gave 1.5 million to assist mission works worldwide, and another 200K specifically for Haiti relief. They do a tremendous amount of good for the community they live in. This type of service is simply not possible in a world of small churches, or of people "worshiping God in their own way".

FYI, I am a conservative evangelical Christian who accepts evolution, a billions-year-old universe and a non-concordist view of the bible.

NO! We've got a BOX and you will FIT INTO IT or PAY!

GKeeper316
2/12/2010, 02:46 PM
NO! We've got a BOX and you will FIT INTO IT or PAY!

troof

GKeeper316
2/12/2010, 02:47 PM
What if he actually is illiterate? Now you've gone and hurt his feelers.

well i did graduate from an oklahoma high school, so illiteracy could be a factor :D

C&CDean
2/12/2010, 02:50 PM
I'm very late to the party here...

I belong to a church that some would call a megachurch - 5,000 members. Less than half the size of Ed Young's place and Gateway church in Grapevine, but huge nonetheless. However, it is a church that challenges us to give, to grow and to think. There is no "prosperity gospel" preached. Christianity is about faith, service and community, and everything they do is to support one of those goals. They recently gave 1.5 million to assist mission works worldwide, and another 200K specifically for Haiti relief. They do a tremendous amount of good for the community they live in. This type of service is simply not possible in a world of small churches, or of people "worshiping God in their own way".

FYI, I am a conservative evangelical Christian who accepts evolution, a billions-year-old universe and a non-concordist view of the bible.

I was wondering if we'd ever see you in this thread. Welcome. We've hashed this one up and down, side to side forever, no? And we're both still where we are - and that's a good thing.

Anyhow, I do have to counter your "this type of service is simply not possible..." comment. I know it makes you feel good to be part of something much larger than yourself. However, please explain to me how a person who attends one of these big churches is better/more holy/whatever? than a solitary christian who gives = or > $$ to charitable organizations, and helps his neighbor, etc. Yes, your dollars and time + all the other members' dollars and time = a larger sum, but with that comes a buttload of overhead. My argument is that my $$ and time given specifically to a mission results in more of my $$ actually getting to the needy. No, there's no big splash or show where I can thump my chest and go "we gave a brazillion $$ to whoever" but I think God appreciates it all the same.

Anyhow, nice to see you post.

Collier11
2/12/2010, 03:00 PM
Of course it is possible, a dollar at a time equals lots of money, just cus you cant give all of that money in one lump some like Dean said doesnt make the money any better or worse

stoops the eternal pimp
2/12/2010, 04:25 PM
Craw's post kinda summed up what I was trying to say..Large membership in a church isn't a negative thing.....

Jesus taught 5000 at a time and he taught 1 at a time, and from what I have gathered, he wasn't impressed with one more than the other.....

In fact, the only gift that impressed him was in Luke 20 when a poor lady gave what seemed like a minimal offering compared to what the others did.