What say you?

[Frozen Sooner]

German homeschoolers granted political asylum
By TRAVIS LOLLER
The Associated Press
Tuesday, January 26, 2010; 8:33 PM

NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- A German couple who fled to Tennessee so they could homeschool their children was granted political asylum Tuesday by a U.S. immigration judge, according to the legal group that represented them.

The decision clears the way for Uwe Romeike (roh-MY-kee), his wife and five children to stay in Morristown, Tenn., where they have been living since 2008. Romeike says his family was persecuted for their evangelical Christian beliefs and for homeschooling their children in Germany, where school attendance is compulsory.

When the Romeikes wouldn't comply with repeated orders to send the children to school, police came to their home one October morning in 2006 and took the children to school. German state constitutions require children to attend public or private schools and parents can face fines or prison time if they don't comply.

In November 2007, Germany's highest appellate court ruled that, in severe cases, social services officials could remove children from their parents.

After that decision, Romeike said, "We knew we had to leave the country."

"During the last 10-20 years the curriculum in public schools has been more and more against Christian values," he said of his decision to teach his children at home.

The U.S. government can appeal the asylum ruling. A spokesman for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement declined to comment in an e-mail.

The ruling was issued by Immigration Judge Lawrence Burman in Memphis, said Mike Donnelly, an attorney for the Home School Legal Defense Association. The judge's opinion was not immediately available.

Lutz Gorgens, German consul general for the Southeast U.S., did not directly address the ruling in a statement e-mailed after the ruling Tuesday, but said German parents have a wide range of educational options for their children. Gorgens said the mandatory school attendance policy ensures a high standard of learning for all children.

"Parents may choose between public, private and religious schools, including those with alternative curricula like Waldorf or Montessori schools," said Gorgens, who's based in Atlanta.

Donnelly said he hopes the ruling will influence public opinion in Germany, and that is part of the reason his group offered to represent the Romeikes.

Romeike said in an interview that when his oldest children were in public schools they had problems with violence, bullying and peer pressure.

"I think it's important for parents to have the freedom to chose the way their children can be taught," Romeike said.

The Romeikes took their three oldest children out of school in Bietigheim-Bissingen in the state of Baden-Wuerttemberg in 2006. Romeike said the couple was fined the equivalent of about $10,000 over a two-year period.

"We didn't pay it all because we couldn't," he said. "We went to court and tried to fight against it - without success."


I think I'm good with granting these guys asylum just because I'm in favor of a broad immigration policy-plus, I think the concept of political asylum for religious beliefs hearkens back to our founding.

You guys?

[Okla-homey]

I think I'm good with granting these guys asylum just because I'm in favor of a broad immigration policy-plus, I think the concept of political asylum for religious beliefs hearkens back to our founding.

You guys?

I'm cool with it, as long as the parents have the means to earn a living and stay off the dole.

I don't feel they were suffering legitimate "religious persecution" because they presumably could have given the kids religious instruction after school and on weekends like a lot of folks do even here in America. Religious persecution would indeed be found if they were barred by their government from worshipping the way they chose, which, at least according to the article, they were not.

This is more a case of pursuing the freedom to raise their children in the way they see fit, which is considered a fundamental right by SCOTUS, irrespective of religion.

[Frozen Sooner]

I'm cool with it, as long as the parents have the means to earn a living and stay off the dole.

I don't feel they were suffering legitimate "religious persecution" because they presumably could have given the kids religious instruction after school and on weekends like a lot of folks do even here in America. Religious persecution would indeed be found if they were barred by their government from worshipping the way they chose, which, at least according to the article, they were not.

This is more a case of pursuing the freedom to raise their children in the way they see fit, which is considered a fundamental right by SCOTUS, irrespective of religion.

Kind of the same case as the dealio with the Amish kids being forced to go to school post 8th grade, though, isn't it? The Supremes analyzed that one under Free Exercise (Yoder I think?)

[Okla-homey]

Kind of the same case as the dealio with the Amish kids being forced to go to school post 8th grade, though, isn't it? The Supremes analyzed that one under Free Exercise (Yoder I think?)

Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U.S. 205 (1972). However, I wouldn't try to stretch it too far. The Court gave great weight to the insular nature of Amish society. I think if the state had been able to show the kids were being hurt by leaving school at 14, which I think it could in any but the cloistered and industrious Amish community, it would have gone the other way.

[Frozen Sooner]

Yeah, I think that's a good reading. I should probably make sure I know the name of that case, since we've already covered it in class...

[Boarder]

THe thing with the Amish in Yoder is that the State couldn't prove that they were not denying free exercise. And, more importantly, they couldn't show a compelling state interest that would allow them to override that denial.

It helped the Amish that they provided practical vocational training after 8th grade, I think. And, they do provide the Rumspringa thing to give the kids a chance to opt out (although I'm not sure if Old Order Amish do that).

[Frozen Sooner]

You're right, the Court did discuss the vocational training in Yoder and found that it served the same purpose to their society as post-8th grade schooling does in ours.

And I don't think it was that they couldn't prove they weren't interfering with Free Exercise, I thought it was that they couldn't show a compelling state interest that couldn't be served in a way that didn't interfere with FE.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Being evangelical Christians, they certainly picked one of the best states to which to flee and most certainly the correct city since the headquarters of the Southern Baptist Convention is right there in town.

[Boarder]

You're right, the Court did discuss the vocational training in Yoder and found that it served the same purpose to their society as post-8th grade schooling does in ours.

And I don't think it was that they couldn't prove they weren't interfering with Free Exercise, I thought it was that they couldn't show a compelling state interest that couldn't be served in a way that didn't interfere with FE.
Well, if they could prove they weren't interfering, there would be no need for finding a state interest. The Yoder team did a good job showing that they were interfering, though.

I did a paper over this stuff last semester. They should have come to Oklahoma, the only state with a constitutional provision for "other means of education".

[Crucifax Autumn]

Every time I hear "Yoder" I either think a Bostonian is discussing the oldest Jedi MAster or I want to hear Focus playing "Hocus Pocus"

[yermom]

they sound like a bunch of whiners.

wah, their kids had to go to school. it's not like they drug them out of church

[Chuck Bao]

This is a really naive question. Does Germany still require membership in church to vote? I remember my German friends talking about that 20 years ago.

Germany doesn't seem very open to differing religious beliefs either, particularly regarding Jehovah Witness. Then, there is a backlash against the Turkish minority's muslim faith. i could see a reason for granting political asylum on religious grounds.

And, I completely disagree with Homey that economic contribution should be the key deciding factor for poltical asylum. We could set the bar at doctors and engineers. But, we may have to change the wording on the Statue of Liberty.

[swardboy]

I'm all for anything that improves our nuclear and missile programs.....

[Crucifax Autumn]

I think countries should either allow ANY religion or NO religion, not really the subject here, but Chuck's post got me thinking and this is what popped out of the toaaster slot of my brain.

[yermom]

This is a really naive question. Does Germany still require membership in church to vote? I remember my German friends talking about that 20 years ago.

Germany doesn't seem very open to differing religious beliefs either, particularly regarding Jehovah Witness. Then, there is a backlash against the Turkish minority's muslim faith. i could see a reason for granting political asylum on religious grounds.

And, I completely disagree with Homey that economic contribution should be the key deciding factor for poltical asylum. We could set the bar at doctors and engineers. But, we may have to change the wording on the Statue of Liberty.

they might as well take down the Statue of Liberty...

[Crucifax Autumn]

Your poor, your hungry, your huddled and degree-holding masses...

lol

[GKeeper316]

ive always felt the state should have no right to tell parents how to raise thier children.

[Crucifax Autumn]

ive always felt the state should have no right to tell parents how to raise thier children.

Within reason I agree, but with the stupidity of parents and the later societal cost if the kids aren't properly educated, socialized, and sane there have to be some standards that parents (and children) are held to.

[Chuck Bao]

Good point. I wonder if Phelps' church had decided to focus their efforts on bringing in like minded individuals instead of protesting against our heroes lost in action, how their effort would have or could have garnered much more support. In truth, I am glad that they are bat **** crazy.

[PrideTrombone]

ive always felt the state should have no right to tell parents how to raise thier children.

Speaking from experience as a teacher, having kids does not an intelligent person make. Some people need to be told how to raise their kids cause they do a ****-poor job of it themselves. Luckily, I'm in a place where by and large, the parents do a good job. Still a few who obviously don't though.

[GKeeper316]

Speaking from experience as a teacher, having kids does not an intelligent person make. Some people need to be told how to raise their kids cause they do a ****-poor job of it themselves. Luckily, I'm in a place where by and large, the parents do a good job. Still a few who obviously don't though.

well thats the problem i think...

america's unwillingness to accept the bad with the good. sometimes a worthless ignorant hillbilly is gonna have a kid and not let him go to school and start chewing tobacco at age 4.

[Okla-homey]

This is a really naive question. Does Germany still require membership in church to vote? I remember my German friends talking about that 20 years ago.

Germany doesn't seem very open to differing religious beliefs either, particularly regarding Jehovah Witness. Then, there is a backlash against the Turkish minority's muslim faith. i could see a reason for granting political asylum on religious grounds.

And, I completely disagree with Homey that economic contribution should be the key deciding factor for poltical asylum. We could set the bar at doctors and engineers. But, we may have to change the wording on the Statue of Liberty.

In cases involving legitimate asylum from persecution, I agree. Let 'em come, whether they can support themselves or not. But in this case Chuck, these parents just wanted to home school their kids vice their compulsory attendance of the government or a private school. Home schooling is illegal in Germany.

That's not a compelling enough reason, IMHO, to let this family jump to the head of the immigration line and be granted "asylum" here. And buddy, it is a long immigration line indeed. Moreover, as you may know, it's tough to immigrate to this country legally unless you can prove you have good employment prospects...which just makes good sense.

IMHO, it's this sort of "I'm persecuted" thing, when people get away with it, that makes it harder for the next guy who may legitimately be persecuted to get here.

[SicEmBaylor]

This is ridiculous.

Germany isn't the Soviet Union. It's a federal republic with free and open elections. If these people don't like the law then stay home and fight/lobby for a change in the law. It won't be easy, but there are plenty of cases where one individual has successfully moved government in one direction or another.

Look, I understand home schooling. I think it deprives kids of important social lessons, friends, fun memories, etc. However, I completely understand wanting to pull kids out of Government Indoctrination Camps. That doesn't mean they should leave the country though and it sure as hell doesn't mean we should grant asylum over something as asinine as this.

[Scott D]

I knew I could count on SicEm for the anti-immigration stance with no exceptions ;)

[PrideTrombone]

well thats the problem i think...

america's unwillingness to accept the bad with the good. sometimes a worthless ignorant hillbilly is gonna have a kid and not let him go to school and start chewing tobacco at age 4.

I guess the world does need unskilled labor. The problem is, in America, no one feels like they ought to be doing unskilled labor anymore, so that hillbilly's kid never gets a job because he's holding out for something in management. :)

[Okla-homey]

I guess the world does need unskilled labor. The problem is, in America, only Mexicans feel like they ought to be doing unskilled labor anymore, so that hillbilly's kid never gets a job because he's holding out for something in management. :)

fixed it. ;)

[olevetonahill]

This is ridiculous.

Germany isn't the Soviet Union. It's a federal republic with free and open elections. If these people don't like the law then stay home and fight/lobby for a change in the law. It won't be easy, but there are plenty of cases where one individual has successfully moved government in one direction or another.

Look, I understand home schooling. I think it deprives kids of important social lessons, friends, fun memories, etc. However, I completely understand wanting to pull kids out of Government Indoctrination Camps. That doesn't mean they should leave the country though and it sure as hell doesn't mean we should grant asylum over something as asinine as this.

Sic from what i read these people were being FINED for trying to keep their kids out of the public schools.
Now with that thot in mind, How long do you think they could have held out Fighting a Gov?

PLus you being an aspiring Politician, How old would their Kids be by the time the changes took effect? If they could have fought and won ?

I say If they can contribute to American society Let em.
Now if they just want to enjoy our freedoms with out contributing to society then **** em.

[C&CDean]

My take:

It's all good as long as they all learn to speak, read, and write in English, get jobs and pay taxes, and aren't on the government tit at all. Assimilate in other words. Completely. Become as American as Gomer ****ing Pyle and I'm good with it. I feel the same way about mexicans, asians, and anybody else who wants to come over here. It's America first. If you wanna live here, be an American. Put your POS mexican or german flag in a drawer. Remember your heritage though. Celebrate it. Do Cinco de Mayo and Oktoberfest to your heart's content. However, you better do Independence Day with equal or greater vigor - or else get the **** out. You are American first if you live here.

[yermom]

i pretty much agree Dean, but there are a lot of other people with bigger problems that we don't let in

[Crucifax Autumn]

Hell, in Germany if they'd been going to school they'd no English already and the parents most likely do.

The thing with the Mexicans that kills me is every time I've been to Mexico everyone I ran into spoke plenty of English and went right into it as soon as I started trying to speak Spanish and explained they all learn English in school. For some ****ing reason, as soon as they cross the bridge, they forget every single word of English they apparently knew before. I just don't get it.

[yermom]

well, you know what they say about Mexicans and billiard balls...

[Crucifax Autumn]

Heh...So maybe we need a special brigade to knock the **** out of them as soon as they step off the bridge.

[GKeeper316]

I guess the world does need unskilled labor. The problem is, in America, no one feels like they ought to be doing unskilled labor anymore, so that hillbilly's kid never gets a job because he's holding out for something in management. :)

it wouldn't be a problem if unskilled labor paid a sustainable income.

when the minimum wage was first introduced back in the 50s a man and his wife both working minimum wage jobs could afford a house, a car, and 2 children. the minimum wage would have to be raised to about 23 dollars an hour for it to have the same value it did back then.

[SicEmBaylor]

Sic from what i read these people were being FINED for trying to keep their kids out of the public schools.
Now with that thot in mind, How long do you think they could have held out Fighting a Gov?

PLus you being an aspiring Politician, How old would their Kids be by the time the changes took effect? If they could have fought and won ?

I say If they can contribute to American society Let em.
Now if they just want to enjoy our freedoms with out contributing to society then **** em.

It takes awhile to change a law, but not always as long as you might think. It depends. You'd be surprised how quickly things can get done when the right sort and amount of pressure is applied.

In any case, a fine is no excuse for leaving your country or for us granting them political asylum. I empathize with their problem, and I support the idea they should be allowed to homeschool their kids. However, that's Germany's problem not ours. If we start granting political asylum for something like this then it sets a very bad precedent and seemingly lowers the bar on what constitutes political oppression.

And then there's the fact that I detest all immigration...legal or otherwise.

[yermom]

you could always move back to Europe if you hate immigration so much

[SicEmBaylor]

you could always move back to Europe if you hate immigration so much

My family didn't immigrate -- they conquered and colonized.

[olevetonahill]

It takes awhile to change a law, but not always as long as you might think. It depends. You'd be surprised how quickly things can get done when the right sort and amount of pressure is applied.

In any case, a fine is no excuse for leaving your country or for us granting them political asylum. I empathize with their problem, and I support the idea they should be allowed to homeschool their kids. However, that's Germany's problem not ours. If we start granting political asylum for something like this then it sets a very bad precedent and seemingly lowers the bar on what constitutes political oppression.

And then there's the fact that I detest all immigration...legal or otherwise.
So did the Indians :rolleyes:

[King Barry's Back]

It takes awhile to change a law, but not always as long as you might think. It depends. You'd be surprised how quickly things can get done when the right sort and amount of pressure is applied.

In any case, a fine is no excuse for leaving your country or for us granting them political asylum. I empathize with their problem, and I support the idea they should be allowed to homeschool their kids. However, that's Germany's problem not ours. If we start granting political asylum for something like this then it sets a very bad precedent and seemingly lowers the bar on what constitutes political oppression.

And then there's the fact that I detest all immigration...legal or otherwise.

You detest ALL immigration? Really? Do you mean you hate for ANY non-Americans to move to the United States? Or do you mean you hate for ANYBODY to move to any foreign country? Or do you just hate for anybody to move anywhere -- i.e. you have to live in the same city you were born in for life?

And Sic Em, I live in Baden Wurttemburg. This is not America. There isn't anyway to get things done "surprisingly quickly" here.

That's not the way Europe works. (Which is just one of the reasons there's so much tension betwixt us and them.) "Shockingly quick" can mean years.

And if you are claiming a violation of "human rights" -- they don't have constitutional rights in Europe -- decades is a more realistic timeframe for relief.

Should those people receive political assylum? Based on the very sparse evidence in that article -- I'd say "yeah, why not." But I don't hate all immigration, so maybe I'm biased.

And someone talked about the "long line" at US immigration. That "long line" is filled with people from the poorest, most backwards places on earth.

Believe me, I have discussed moving to the US with dozens of Europeans, and not one has ever indicated that they had any desire to do so. Well, 3 or 4 said that they'd think about living about living in the US for a few years to see what it was like, but when I told them they'd only get two weeks vacation -- they looked at me in horror and said, "NO NO! I'd never want to live there!"

[Scott D]

SicEm is very anti-immigration to the United States. He would have no problem with people leaving to go live in other countries on a permanent basis.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

What if they brought cigars, a six pack of zima, and a bad *** Franklin Mint pewter Civil War chess set?

[SicEmBaylor]

You detest ALL immigration? Really? Do you mean you hate for ANY non-Americans to move to the United States? Or do you mean you hate for ANYBODY to move to any foreign country? Or do you just hate for anybody to move anywhere -- i.e. you have to live in the same city you were born in for life?

And Sic Em, I live in Baden Wurttemburg. This is not America. There isn't anyway to get things done "surprisingly quickly" here.

That's not the way Europe works. (Which is just one of the reasons there's so much tension betwixt us and them.) "Shockingly quick" can mean years.

And if you are claiming a violation of "human rights" -- they don't have constitutional rights in Europe -- decades is a more realistic timeframe for relief.

Should those people receive political assylum? Based on the very sparse evidence in that article -- I'd say "yeah, why not." But I don't hate all immigration, so maybe I'm biased.

And someone talked about the "long line" at US immigration. That "long line" is filled with people from the poorest, most backwards places on earth.

Believe me, I have discussed moving to the US with dozens of Europeans, and not one has ever indicated that they had any desire to do so. Well, 3 or 4 said that they'd think about living about living in the US for a few years to see what it was like, but when I told them they'd only get two weeks vacation -- they looked at me in horror and said, "NO NO! I'd never want to live there!"

Shockingly quick means years here. The shocking part being the measurement of years and not decades.

In any case, yes I oppose all immigration into the United States. I don't give a damned who emigrates out of the United States...in fact, I encourage it for large segments of our population. I don't care where they go so long as they go.

[SicEmBaylor]

What if they brought cigars, a six pack of zima, and a bad *** Franklin Mint pewter Civil War chess set?

Everyone is a whore we're just haggling over price. You may have found mine.

[Crucifax Autumn]

If he'd thrown in a Star Trek box set he'd have you straining your zipper!

[GKeeper316]

And then there's the fact that I detest all immigration...legal or otherwise.

"give us your tired, your hungry, your poor, huddled masses yearning to breathe free" mean anything to you?

[PDXsooner]

Shockingly quick means years here. The shocking part being the measurement of years and not decades.

In any case, yes I oppose all immigration into the United States. I don't give a damned who emigrates out of the United States...in fact, I encourage it for large segments of our population. I don't care where they go so long as they go.

you're an intelligent, articulate, deep-thinker who i admire in some ways but you're also extreme to the point of ridiculous on this matter.

[SicEmBaylor]

"give us your tired, your hungry, your poor, huddled masses yearning to breathe free" mean anything to you?

No. It's just a poem not a constitutional requirement.

[StoopTroup]

Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U.S. 205 (1972). However, I wouldn't try to stretch it too far. The Court gave great weight to the insular nature of Amish society. I think if the state had been able to show the kids were being hurt by leaving school at 14, which I think it could in any but the cloistered and industrious Amish community, it would have gone the other way.

Stuff like that leaves you with a heart warming feeling of just how much freedom we have anymore....lol

[GKeeper316]

No. It's just a poem not a constitutional requirement.

ya its also the concept that made america great.

[SicEmBaylor]

ya its also the concept that made america great.

Really? I thought it was the rule of law, individual liberty, and a constitutional federal republic....

Immigration has outlived its usefulness. At best it's depriving Americans of jobs and at worst its destroying our Western European heritage.