Manifest Destiny and the destruction of the United States

[JohnnyMack]

I have this idea rolling around in my head that Manifest Destiny is the underlying cause of most of the ills we're experiencing today. I'm having a tough time verbalizing this, but basically I think we expanded our nation in an unsustainable fashion beginning some 150+ years ago and it caused a shift in the mentality away from community and toward more individualism which led to we the people being more inherently selfish.

I wonder what the industrial revolution would have looked like had the Louisiana Purchase not taken place.

Am I nuts?

[olevetonahill]

I have this idea rolling around in my head that Manifest Destiny is the underlying cause of most of the ills we're experiencing today. I'm having a tough time verbalizing this, but basically I think we expanded our nation in an unsustainable fashion beginning some 150+ years ago and it caused a shift in the mentality away from community and toward more individualism which led to we the people being more inherently selfish.

I wonder what the industrial revolution would have looked like had the Louisiana Purchase not taken place.

Am I nuts?

Need you ask ?

[Okla-homey]

The real problem is, there is no more "frontier" where the poor and newly arrived immigrant can walk to, if necessary, build a homestead on cheap or free land, clear fields and make a living. And I mean that both literally and figuratively.

Figuratively in the sense that if you don't have marketable skills and/or a college education in this 21st century, there's not much you can do to provide for your family, unlike most of human history in which any boob, raised on a subsistence farm, could use that experience to scratch out a living in the dirt and provide for his family.

Recapping:

1) agrarian age(basically from the beginning of time to 1880 or so) - even a rural illiterate plowboy could root hog and provide for his family on even rented land;

2) industrial age(c.1880 to c.1980) - farm as above, or, work in a factory/mill/railroad/ports/mine with no formal education and provide for your family;

3) information age (c.1980 thru today) - no skills? No education? Absent criminal actvity, minimum wage. Which isn't enough to provide for a family, even if both mom and dad have jobs, and these pathetic wretches become generally reliant on government benefits and entitlements for survival.

Part of the solution, IMHO, is to educate our kids differently. This "one size fits all" approach K through 12 is dumb and inefficient. What we need to do is categorize kids at about age 12, into blue collar or white collar tracks and their education ought to be tailored appropriately. At least that way, a kid who pretty much everyone who is paying attention knows isn't headed on to college might actually learn how to DO something that will pay him enough to provide for himself and his family.

[KC//CRIMSON]

I have this idea rolling around in my head that Manifest Destiny is the underlying cause of most of the ills we're experiencing today. I'm having a tough time verbalizing this, but basically I think we expanded our nation in an unsustainable fashion beginning some 150+ years ago and it caused a shift in the mentality away from community and toward more individualism which led to we the people being more inherently selfish.

I wonder what the industrial revolution would have looked like had the Louisiana Purchase not taken place.

Am I nuts?

I kinda see where you are coming from. I've always had an admiration for Asians and their practice of Collectivism. Especially where family and culture is concerned.

[GKeeper316]

the lack of a frontier where the poor can go become something more than what they are is something i hadnt considered, but will research.

[Okla-homey]

the lack of a frontier where the poor can go become something more than what they are is something i hadnt considered, but will research.

It's not my idea. It was first advanced by a guy called Frederick Jackson Turner. He theorized the reason the US had never been rocked by coups and revolutions like every other country in the hemisphere, except Canada which had it's own frontier, is because of the social unrest safety valve afforded by the frontier.

[GKeeper316]

It's not my idea. It was first advanced by a guy called Frederick Jackson Turner. He theorized the reason the US had never been rocked by coups and revolutions like every other country in the hemisphere, except Canada which had it's own frontier, is because of the social unrest safety valve afforded by the frontier.

fair enough, but further consideration has lead me to a slightly different line of reasoning...

just because we have no "physical" frontier (in that all the land is spoken for and must now be purchased instead of granted or steaded for) doesnt mean there arent still frontiers.

[Frozen Sooner]

The real problem is, there is no more "frontier" where the poor and newly arrived immigrant can walk to, if necessary, build a homestead on cheap or free land, clear fields and make a living. And I mean that both literally and figuratively.

Figuratively in the sense that if you don't have marketable skills and/or a college education in this 21st century, there's not much you can do to provide for your family, unlike most of human history in which any boob, raised on a subsistence farm, could use that experience to scratch out a living in the dirt and provide for his family.

Recapping:

1) agrarian age(basically from the beginning of time to 1880 or so) - even a rural illiterate plowboy could root hog and provide for his family on even rented land;

2) industrial age(c.1880 to c.1980) - farm as above, or, work in a factory/mill/railroad/ports/mine with no formal education and provide for your family;

3) information age (c.1980 thru today) - no skills? No education? Absent criminal actvity, minimum wage. Which isn't enough to provide for a family, even if both mom and dad have jobs, and these pathetic wretches become generally reliant on government benefits and entitlements for survival.

Part of the solution, IMHO, is to educate our kids differently. This "one size fits all" approach K through 12 is dumb and inefficient. What we need to do is categorize kids at about age 12, into blue collar or white collar tracks and their education ought to be tailored appropriately. At least that way, a kid who pretty much everyone who is paying attention knows isn't headed on to college might actually learn how to DO something that will pay him enough to provide for himself and his family.

The world needs ditchdiggers too!
http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/webpics/Judge_Smails.jpg

[GottaHavePride]

What we need to do is categorize kids at about age 12, into blue collar or white collar tracks and their education ought to be tailored appropriately. At least that way, a kid who pretty much everyone who is paying attention knows isn't headed on to college might actually learn how to DO something that will pay him enough to provide for himself and his family.

Problem is, all the dummies think they'e gonna be famous NBA stars like LeBron James and make bajillions of dollars.

[Crucifax Autumn]

That's not how it works? I guess I need to start making the kids go to school again instead of practicing!

[Harry Beanbag]

I have this idea rolling around in my head that Manifest Destiny is the underlying cause of most of the ills we're experiencing today. I'm having a tough time verbalizing this, but basically I think we expanded our nation in an unsustainable fashion beginning some 150+ years ago and it caused a shift in the mentality away from community and toward more individualism which led to we the people being more inherently selfish.

I wonder what the industrial revolution would have looked like had the Louisiana Purchase not taken place.

Am I nuts?

I think you're a little off in your conclusion. Individualism is what made America into the greatest nation on earth. At work and on the battlefield, American individual freedom and independence was the key ingredient to the U.S. outperforming everybody else. It is the turning towards government for answers (less individualism} over the last 50 or so years that has changed and possibly doomed this country as it used to be.

The theory that Homey introduced has a lot of merit IMO.

[Chuck Bao]

Personally, I don't think Manifest Destiny even enters into the equation of our current economic problems. Are we debating the "can do" and "make it on my own" spirit versus the "take care of family first" tradition? I would agree to some degree. It amazes me how successful Asians are in the US. Maybe they haven't been in the US long enough to get that second and third generation malaise. Something is missing for our generation. Maybe it is family. Maybe it is a lack of a new "manifest destiny". Maybe it is because we are not living up to what our fathers and grandfathers achieved. I have been telling my friends that we have no right to expect advances in standard of living in the future. Since then, they all have bought McMansions in the vast suburban housing estates and drive their kids to school in a Escalade. Now, they are hurting and angry about Obama. Any logic I try to use and they feel that I am poking them in the face. Manifest destiny may have been God inspired. This latest mess, God is not there.

[SCOUT]

My view of manifest destiny is pretty simplistic. Having almost 2/3 of our boarder be an ocean is important. The vast majority of our enemies are at an arms length to start. There are other reasons I am sure, but that is my view.

[Collier11]

I dont know what caused it but the loss of community is a huge problem with this country, as recently as when I was a kid in the 80's everyone in the community looked out for the kids, helped each other out, etc...you just dont see that much anymore

Family and friends used to be much more important

[MrJimBeam]

It amazes me how successful Asians are in the US.

Asians are some of the best Americans. I'd like to trade some Somalians for more Asians.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

The real problem is, there is no more "frontier" where the poor and newly arrived immigrant can walk to, if necessary, build a homestead on cheap or free land, clear fields and make a living. And I mean that both literally and figuratively.

lots of opportunities for urban renewal and revitalization of small towns if only the bureaucrats would get out of the way.

[King Crimson]

Recapping:

1) agrarian age(basically from the beginning of time to 1880 or so) - even a rural illiterate plowboy could root hog and provide for his family on even rented land;

2) industrial age(c.1880 to c.1980) - farm as above, or, work in a factory/mill/railroad/ports/mine with no formal education and provide for your family;

3) information age (c.1980 thru today) - no skills? No education? Absent criminal actvity, minimum wage. Which isn't enough to provide for a family, even if both mom and dad have jobs, and these pathetic wretches become generally reliant on government benefits and entitlements for survival.


how about a source for this? really. what date in 1980 did we switch from an economy based in the production and transformation of material goods to information?

minus the editorializing about welfare scum from our resident historian: no formal education existed before 1980? the American revolution was largely a product of the growth of print being available to "do-it-yourself" types, like Ben Franklin. Thomas Payne. access to the means of publication. but, that kind of political transformation enabled by the means of communication being "democratized" doesn't really count as an "information age". yet, when protesters or rock bands in Beijing use Twitter or facebook to organize....that's part of the "information age" and really cool?

how did the protestant reformation happen? movable type doesn't count as "information"?

dating the industrial rev at 1880 is pretty arbitrary. June, July of that year?

[NormanPride]

I don't think the point is the specific time, but rather the shift in how people viewed the world. Farmers used to have it a bit easier before the corporate farms started grabbing everything up. Manufacturing has gotten much more specialized and much less labor-friendly. Collegiate education is a prerequisite for any kind of standard career other than manual labor of some kind.

With access to career type jobs for the poor (and thus less educated on average) dwindling or at least faltering, the government has had to step in to fill the gap between the amount they earn and the amount needed to survive at any reasonable level in this nation. I don't claim to be a jobs or economy specialist, but it's a reasonable argument that if we caught some of these kids before they gave up, perhaps some vocational training would lessen the burden on the government and increase the skilled labor force in America.

[1890MilesToNorman]

Federalized Education
Absolutely Huge entitlements
14 bazillion Gubmint Agencies
Discouraging competition
Uncontrolled immigration

The list is long but the bottom line is American's mind sets are prioritizing the wrong things. This lays squarely on the shoulders of our parents, our legislatures, the media and our educational institutions.

[1890MilesToNorman]

Manifest Destiny is the wrong thing to blame, we haven't added a new state to the union in 60 years.

[JohnnyMack]

You can't look through the traditional lens of history with this for if the LP never takes place the entire evolution of the United States changes. Let's say Napoleon tells Livingston to go **** himself and decides to dig in his little tiny heels over New Orleans. Say the US spends another 15 or 20 years fighting up and down the Mississippi to gain ground instead of being handed the river and the vast land to the west. That would in turn give the Spanish more time to extend its grasp through Texas and the west, making the acquisition of that land a more difficult task.

Perhaps without the frontier to serve as a massive safety valve of social unrest as Homey alluded to, we as nation dealt with and faced our internal challenges in a different fashion, creating an entirely different country than the one we have.

I'd argue also that MD led to a more lax immigration policy as land certainly wasn't at a premium, there was instantly plenty of land for everyone to have a piece.

[OklahomaTuba]

If only the progressive movement had been more successful in trying to exterminate the unwashed masses through their eugenics programs.

[NormanPride]

JM, I don't think the US would be near the country it is now if it had to deal with all those problems early. Clashing cultures is one of the hardest things a society can handle, and at that stage the US was not near strong enough to handle those kinds of difficulties and grow at the same time. Perhaps the Civil War happens early, or perhaps it never happens at all because we dissolve into squabbling states again.

[TUSooner]

If only the progressive movement had been more successful in trying to exterminate the unwashed masses through their eugenics programs.

It's irrelevant horse-**** like this that makes you... whatever you are. :rolleyes:

[delhalew]

Dissolve into squabbling states?
We were always intended to be a union of indepentant states.
Turning away from that was our biggest mistake.

[C&CDean]

Some of you sure like to use big words that don't mean ****. And some of you are being stupid by demanding minute details of dates/times/etc. of events or periods in our history. I'll tell you what the deal is:

Fences. Fences? you say? Yes, fences. America started going down the ****ter sometimes after WWII (no Mr. college professor, I do not have the exact dates, or even exact decade for that matter) when people moved into towns and suburbs, got decent jobs, had nice homes built......then started erecting privacy fences around their yards and homes.

Before fences folks' yards were pretty much common areas where everyone in the community could socialize, come up to your back door and borrow a cup of sugar, share a barbecue, and all the kids in the neighborhood would play. You were just as likely to get an asswhoopin' from your neighbor's dad as you were your own. It was a community. People cared. People shared. Nobody locked doors or windows. Hell, your neighbors would come right in the house and help themselves to something they needed, or drop off a pie or some cookies any time they wanted.

When people started erecting fences - especially those wooden stockade fences like so many of y'all have - the spirit of community vaporized. When I lived in Norman, I had neighbors on three sides. The ones behind me, and the ones to the North I never met. In 7 years of living there. The ones to the South I knew by name, but I never set foot in their house nor they in mine. We knew the people across the street a little cause they had kids who played on the same sports teams with our kids. Still though, we never shared a beer or a barbecue.

Fences ****ed up America. Of course selfishness, greed, pride, jealousy, etc. is what led to the fences in the first place, but hey, it's easier to blame a fence.

[Okla-homey]

how about a source for this? really. what date in 1980 did we switch from an economy based in the production and transformation of material goods to information?

minus the editorializing about welfare scum from our resident historian: no formal education existed before 1980? the American revolution was largely a product of the growth of print being available to "do-it-yourself" types, like Ben Franklin. Thomas Payne. access to the means of publication. but, that kind of political transformation enabled by the means of communication being "democratized" doesn't really count as an "information age". yet, when protesters or rock bands in Beijing use Twitter or facebook to organize....that's part of the "information age" and really cool?

how did the protestant reformation happen? movable type doesn't count as "information"?

dating the industrial rev at 1880 is pretty arbitrary. June, July of that year?

The above response is a classic example of the problem with you professional academic types. You overthink stuff and too often can't see the forest for the trees. Do you deny a person with only a HS diploma and no marketable skills can't make a living nowadays but generally could before 1980? In fact, I heard The One read aloud from his teleprompter precisely that during his SOTU address last night.

[King Crimson]

lol. really. c'mon? i grew up in Oklahoma, too....my grandparents never locked their door. ever. they made the Cherokee Strip landrun as kids. i don't need this wannabe lesson in nostalgia in Oklahoma purity from kiss the ring Dean or anyone. that's pretty low to come with the "professor" pejorative.

you insult my family.

what i'm saying if you wanna wax with the big brush on history, you need to come better than that. no matter how long ago it was. and if you get challenged, maybe not get so defensive and ad hominem.

i can't see the forest for the trees because you make an unjustifiable statement about "history" and the info society?

cool.

[C&CDean]

kiss the ring? lame.

How about you argue about my fences thesis?

[Okla-homey]

lol. really. c'mon? i grew up in Oklahoma, too....my grandparents never locked their door. ever. they made the Cherokee Strip landrun as kids. i don't need this wannabe lesson in nostalgia in Oklahoma purity from kiss the ring Dean or anyone. that's pretty low to come with the "professor" pejorative.

you insult my family.

what i'm saying if you wanna wax with the big brush on history, you need to come better than that. no matter how long ago it was. and if you get challenged, maybe not get so defensive and ad hominem.

i can't see the forest for the trees because you make an unjustifiable statement about "history" and the info society?

cool.

Objection. Unresponsive. Now, back to my question.

[GKeeper316]

Some of you sure like to use big words that don't mean ****. And some of you are being stupid by demanding minute details of dates/times/etc. of events or periods in our history. I'll tell you what the deal is:

Fences. Fences? you say? Yes, fences. America started going down the ****ter sometimes after WWII (no Mr. college professor, I do not have the exact dates, or even exact decade for that matter) when people moved into towns and suburbs, got decent jobs, had nice homes built......then started erecting privacy fences around their yards and homes.

Before fences folks' yards were pretty much common areas where everyone in the community could socialize, come up to your back door and borrow a cup of sugar, share a barbecue, and all the kids in the neighborhood would play. You were just as likely to get an asswhoopin' from your neighbor's dad as you were your own. It was a community. People cared. People shared. Nobody locked doors or windows. Hell, your neighbors would come right in the house and help themselves to something they needed, or drop off a pie or some cookies any time they wanted.

When people started erecting fences - especially those wooden stockade fences like so many of y'all have - the spirit of community vaporized. When I lived in Norman, I had neighbors on three sides. The ones behind me, and the ones to the North I never met. In 7 years of living there. The ones to the South I knew by name, but I never set foot in their house nor they in mine. We knew the people across the street a little cause they had kids who played on the same sports teams with our kids. Still though, we never shared a beer or a barbecue.

Fences ****ed up America. Of course selfishness, greed, pride, jealousy, etc. is what led to the fences in the first place, but hey, it's easier to blame a fence.

i disagree... imo its the 24 hour media and the sensationalization (is that a even a word?) of every violent act, everywhere that led to this "you drive in your lane, ill drive in mine" mentality.

cable news changed the psyche of america.

[King Crimson]

kiss the ring? lame.

How about you argue about my fences thesis?

i agree it's lame.

the absence of fences sounds like socialism to me. and, the idea of the "commons" has been a part of digital culture for a long time....are you for that too?

i think it's interesting when people stop having front porches and instead back yards.

homey: objection to what? i know you are used to running un-opposed around here of late but you need to be a little more specific with your general disdain for "fancy book learnin" and higher education.

[ouwasp]

Interesting points...

But I'm a little surprised no one has dug up that "life cycle of republics" yet.

Pres. Obama said one thing I agreed with last night, I'll paraphrase: "America deserves a government as decent as her people."

That sounded good, and someone of either party could have said it. But... I'm not so sure how decent we are anymore. I'm not sure how to qualify that statement, just a feeling I have. I mean, we're still the most generous nation in history...

OTOH my family knows neighbors all around, and I can't go to Wal-Mart w/o seeing a lot of folks I know; life in a small town. Life in a bigger metro would be different. But one can still learn who their neighbors are.

[Ardmore_Sooner]

Why must manifest destiny end?

Canada isn't even a real country anyways! ;)

[Ike]

Some of you sure like to use big words that don't mean ****. And some of you are being stupid by demanding minute details of dates/times/etc. of events or periods in our history. I'll tell you what the deal is:

Fences. Fences? you say? Yes, fences. America started going down the ****ter sometimes after WWII (no Mr. college professor, I do not have the exact dates, or even exact decade for that matter) when people moved into towns and suburbs, got decent jobs, had nice homes built......then started erecting privacy fences around their yards and homes.

Before fences folks' yards were pretty much common areas where everyone in the community could socialize, come up to your back door and borrow a cup of sugar, share a barbecue, and all the kids in the neighborhood would play. You were just as likely to get an asswhoopin' from your neighbor's dad as you were your own. It was a community. People cared. People shared. Nobody locked doors or windows. Hell, your neighbors would come right in the house and help themselves to something they needed, or drop off a pie or some cookies any time they wanted.

When people started erecting fences - especially those wooden stockade fences like so many of y'all have - the spirit of community vaporized. When I lived in Norman, I had neighbors on three sides. The ones behind me, and the ones to the North I never met. In 7 years of living there. The ones to the South I knew by name, but I never set foot in their house nor they in mine. We knew the people across the street a little cause they had kids who played on the same sports teams with our kids. Still though, we never shared a beer or a barbecue.

Fences ****ed up America. Of course selfishness, greed, pride, jealousy, etc. is what led to the fences in the first place, but hey, it's easier to blame a fence.



It's as plausible an explanation as any. We moved back here to a neighborhood with stockade fences around everyones yard, and damn I hate them. Unfortunately the HOA mandates "6 foot sight proof fences." I've noticed too that (probably) because of this, our contact with our neighbors is far less frequent than it was in the neighborhood we were in in IL, where the few houses that had fences had 3 foot high picket fences. The neighbors we had in IL were the best neighbors I've ever had. All of them. And a big reason for that was just because there was pretty regular interaction between everyone in the neighborhood....happened pretty much any time anyone went outside. At a minimum, it would consist of a simple wave or "how's it going". More often, there would be beer and Cubs talk involved. We still keep in touch with them, and plan on doing so for a long long time.

Now, it may not be completely the fault of the fences, but I believe they play a role. We're friendly with most of our neighbors (at least the ones we have met), but we hardly ever see them.

[swardboy]

Space: The final frontier. As a 16 year old I witnessed a remarkable turnaround in our country's mindset in 1969. Neil Armstrong had hardly set foot upon the moon when the "naval gazers" started ranting about obscene amounts of money spent on space exploration, and insisting on spending on social problems here on the planet....we lost our soul then. A Saturn V meant for a moon mission lies on its side in Huntsville, AL, unused...declared a "historic site".

The space program returned $7 for every $1 spent...that laptop of your being just an example. Spin-off was decimated....I blame liberals.

[Crucifax Autumn]

I blame idiots and people with no imagination or sense of adventure from all of the political spectrum. Don't forget it was a liberal president who insisted we go to the moon and a conservative president who recently said we should set our sights on returning and going to Mars.

[swardboy]

By today's standards, Jack Kennedy was a fiscal conservative. Conservatism says "go out there, do your best to succeed...dream big dreams." Liberalism says "We'll take care of you. You're a victim of the greed of others."

One reaches for the stars, the other expects to be given the stars.

[Frozen Sooner]

I love this particular conservative meme. Keep repeating it and you might even start believing it.

Read the New Frontier speech and tell me President Kennedy was a conservative.

Or better yet:


If by a 'Liberal' they mean one who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a 'Liberal,' then I'm proud to say I'm a 'Liberal.'

[Crucifax Autumn]

By today's standards, Jack Kennedy was a fiscal conservative. Conservatism says "go out there, do your best to succeed...dream big dreams." Liberalism says "We'll take care of you. You're a victim of the greed of others."

One reaches for the stars, the other expects to be given the stars.

How does that mesh with the "pointy headed intellectuals in ivory towers" definition of liberals the right frequently tosses around?

[Soonrboy]

Manifest Destiny may or may not have been the underlying cause of the ills of America, but it was the destruction of many many civlilizations.

[C&CDean]

I love this particular conservative meme. Keep repeating it and you might even start believing it.

Read the New Frontier speech and tell me President Kennedy was a conservative.

Or better yet:

This is where you lefties got it all wrong Froze. Conservatives care about the homeless, poor, downtrodden, weak, etc. just as much as any flaming lib does. Most conservatives also donate as much - or more - to "causes" to help these folks out than any of your outspoken commie heroes ever thought about donating. Their money. Money they earned themselves. Personally, I donate to the Salvation Army.

This is the rub (at least with me). Out of the goodness of my heart I donate directly to a cause I think helps the less fortunate. You guys would rather I let you take my money and let you decide who gets it. Just so it's clear, gays, lesbians, starving artists, and the like are not "less fortunate." Healthy men and women who choose the welfare lifestyle are not "less fortunate." They're lazy ****ing slobs who ain't got an ounce of pride. **** them. Hard. And quit with the "I'm righteous cause I love me some poor people" bull**** while you're at it.

****, I'm poor. I've got a solid year's worth of cleanup to do after this ice storm on the ranch. I've got damage to the house where a limb fell on it. I have to use a 4x4 to get up the drive because trees are all over it. I'm running a generator - that I bought and paid for myself. I'll get by, and I'll get it done. Why? Cause I have a work ethic. Because I have enough self-pride and motivation to do it. I don't need FEMA. I don't need GWB or Brack. I don't need my government to bale me out.

That's the difference between conservatives and liberals. Libs expect the government to save them. Look no further than Katrina for evidence of that.

End of rant.

[Crucifax Autumn]

So...Which is it? Was Kennedy a liberal or a conservative? And when the comment was "by today's standards" does that mean that today's conservatives would have been whooping it up with Kennedy on vacation and ****?

[C&CDean]

Kennedy was tapping him some fine ***. Clinton? He was being a true liberal and tapped him some fat whore ***. I'd have to say Kennedy was a true conservative.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Clinton was just doing what he could for the unfortunate! lol

[KC//CRIMSON]

You gotta love Dean's passion. His world is crumbling around him and he manages to squeeze enough juice out of his generator to get on the internet and bitch about it. *ucking priceless.:D

[Crucifax Autumn]

He's on a tractor multitasking dammit!

[C&CDean]

You gotta love Dean's passion. His world is crumbling around him and he manages to squeeze enough juice out of his generator to get on the internet and bitch about it. *ucking priceless.:D

Dude, I'm at work. Yes, the roads are ****ed, but I am a dedicated mother****er. Besides, I had to fill up a few more gas cans for the generator, and since I'm on a well, I needed me a shower. We have nice showers in the gym here at work, so here I be. I am heading home here in a little bit though, and yes, I'm taking my laptop so I can squeeze that juice and see what you miscreants are up to.

[TUSooner]

****
This is the rub (at least with me). Out of the goodness of my heart I donate directly to a cause I think helps the less fortunate. You guys would rather I let you take my money and let you decide who gets it.
****


Thus ^ In a nutshell.

Only idiots think it's generous to give away someone else's money. There is still a line -- somewhere, I swear -- between contributing to the common good (like taxes to build highways and run courts and pay for a navy, etc.) and getting your paycheck heisted for the pet projects of people who think they know more than you (like ....insert endless list of pork projects and entitlements for rich and poor here).
"Conservatives" need to be working on moving that line toward more individual economic choice instead of getting obsessed over homosexuals and evolution and trying to turn public schools into hardshell Baptist Sunday schools. At the very least, the "liberals" who want to take my money should be forced to convince the country that what they want to buy with my money is worth it, instead of dismissing public opinion and cramming BS laws through the Congress.

End of my rant

[Crucifax Autumn]

Dude, I'm at work. Yes, the roads are ****ed, but I am a dedicated mother****er. Besides, I had to fill up a few more gas cans for the generator, and since I'm on a well, I needed me a shower. We have nice showers in the gym here at work, so here I be. I am heading home here in a little bit though, and yes, I'm taking my laptop so I can squeeze that juice and see what you miscreants are up to.

Damn it! I was hoping this was gonna be the big chance for the inmates to run the asylum! :mad:

[Frozen Sooner]

bale me out.

That's the difference between conservatives and liberals. Libs expect the government to save them. Look no further than Katrina for evidence of that.

End of rant.

This is where you righties get it wrong. Liberals understand that there's certain problems insoluble by individual action and that sometimes the best mechanism for concerted action is through the government. Sometimes, yeah, that means the government has to step in during a natural disaster and save some lives. As for ****ing up Katrina, spinning that as some sort of vindication of conservative thought is massively MASSIVELY stupid. Unless you think that a conservative gutting social programs and putting the president of a dressage club in charge of disaster relief is somehow the secret doings of liberals. Who knows, maybe you guys think President Bush was a Democrat.

You donate to the Salvation Army? Good for you. I've got the same line on my Schedule E and it gets filled out every year (same charity in fact.) I wasn't aware that it was a conservatives-only club.

Claiming Kennedy as a conservative is horse****. John Kennedy would no more be a Republican today than I would be.

If I need to quit with the "I'm righteous because I'm liberal" bull****, then you need to quit with the "I'm self-reliant because I'm a conservative" bull****. I've made no claim to righteousness here, I've simply pointed out that the appropriation of a historical figure and twisting him into something he manifestly wasn't is odious in the extreme.

[C&CDean]

Thus ^ In a nutshell.

Only idiots think it's generous to give away someone else's money. There is still a line -- somewhere, I swear -- between contributing to the common good (like taxes to build highways and run courts and pay for a navy, etc.) and getting your paycheck heisted for the pet projects of people who think they know more than you (like ....insert endless list of pork projects and entitlements for rich and poor here).
"Conservatives" need to be working on moving that line toward more individual economic choice instead of getting obsessed over homosexuals and evolution and trying to turn public schools into hardshell Baptist Sunday schools. At the very least, the "liberals" who want to take my money should be forced to convince the country that what they want to buy with my money is worth it, instead of dismissing public opinion and cramming BS laws through the Congress.

End of my rant

This is also one of my hot buttons - albeit a small one. What people ain't getting is that prayer poles, pre-game prayer, saying "under God" and all the stuff liberals are in an uproar over have been going on for decades. Nobody is trying to turn a school into a Pilgrim of Holiness hellfire and brimstone tongue talking snake handling deal. Liberals are coming in and attacking a student's right to pray, and most assuredly attacking the school and administration for allowing it. I am happy to say that every football game in Lexington, by God, Oklahoma is started with a prayer. As it should be. It's more tradition than religion, and it sure ain't new.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Pilgrim of Holiness hellfire and brimstone tongue talking snake handling deal

You have to admit, that would be one exciting school.

[Frozen Sooner]

[Liberals are coming in and attacking a student's right to pray

Bull****. They're attacking government imprimatur on prayer. Pray all you want. Don't use the school's equipment for it and make everyone else listen to it. Read the Santa Fe case and its history and see if you come to the same conclusion.

[Crucifax Autumn]

I tried to pray in school once, but the principal through an unholy fit when I spraypainted a pentagram on the sidewalk by the flag pole.

[C&CDean]

This is where you righties get it wrong. Liberals understand that there's certain problems insoluble by individual action and that sometimes the best mechanism for concerted action is through the government. Sometimes, yeah, that means the government has to step in during a natural disaster and save some lives. As for ****ing up Katrina, spinning that as some sort of vindication of conservative thought is massively MASSIVELY stupid. Unless you think that a conservative gutting social programs and putting the president of a dressage club in charge of disaster relief is somehow the secret doings of liberals. Who knows, maybe you guys think President Bush was a Democrat.

You donate to the Salvation Army? Good for you. I've got the same line on my Schedule E and it gets filled out every year (same charity in fact.) I wasn't aware that it was a conservatives-only club.

Claiming Kennedy as a conservative is horse****. John Kennedy would no more be a Republican today than I would be.

If I need to quit with the "I'm righteous because I'm liberal" bull****, then you need to quit with the "I'm self-reliant because I'm a conservative" bull****. I've made no claim to righteousness here, I've simply pointed out that the appropriation of a historical figure and twisting him into something he manifestly wasn't is odious in the extreme.

There you go again. I say "Katrina" and you take it to some bizarre extreme. My comment on Katrina was aimed at the worthless, stealing, looting thug mother****ers and the lazy crack hoes who got trailers and **** because they were too stupid or stoned to get the **** out. Even I'm smart enough to know folks need help from the government every once in a while. Give me a little credit. Jeez.

Lincoln was a Republican. Nobody said Kennedy was one though. They said he was a conservative. Unfortunately, R does not = conservative anymore. Besides, if Kennedy was a lib, he'd have been ****ing Lady Bird or even LBJ before he'd **** Marilyn. That's how you guys roll...:P

[Frozen Sooner]

Huh. Every election cycle I hear about how its strange that low-income minorities vote Democratic because they have more in common with the religious right.

And Marilyn was a bigger girl, man. That's right up our alley. :D

Maybe you guys are reading different speeches than I am, but Kennedy's oratory had a distinctively progressive/liberal bent to it. Sure, he cut taxes, but when he was done the top marginal rate was at a place that'd make even Bernie Sanders blush.

[TUSooner]

This is also one of my hot buttons - albeit a small one. What people ain't getting is that prayer poles, pre-game prayer, saying "under God" and all the stuff liberals are in an uproar over have been going on for decades. Nobody is trying to turn a school into a Pilgrim of Holiness hellfire and brimstone tongue talking snake handling deal. Liberals are coming in and attacking a student's right to pray, and most assuredly attacking the school and administration for allowing it. I am happy to say that every football game in Lexington, by God, Oklahoma is started with a prayer. As it should be. It's more tradition than religion, and it sure ain't new.

I agree that anti-religionists shouldn't get all panicky about benign traditions & invocations and such. It's not hurting anybody, and they ought to STFU and let people live

That's not what I was referring to though, I exactly had in mind Sally Kern, whom I believe is a fair dinkum kook who hurts the credibility of other conservatives and Christians.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Wouldn't it be funny to compare Monica and Marylin's weight and find out Lewinsky was the lighter one!

[C&CDean]

Bull****. They're attacking government imprimatur on prayer. Pray all you want. Don't use the school's equipment for it and make everyone else listen to it. Read the Santa Fe case and its history and see if you come to the same conclusion.

Is that latin or allabammerian? I'm not up at the fancy law school so I don't really have time to read legal briefs and the like. Here's what I know. For years, the kids at Lexington High School had a little prayer meeting before school at the flag pole. No harm to anyone. Come if you want, don't if you don't want. Your people came in and tried to make the school stop allowing the students to assemble for prayer by the flagpole. It wasn't a school-sanctioned event. It was a bunch of students who wanted to pray together. Seriously, where's the harm in that? Yes, it's a simplified, Okie hick situation, but it's a snapshot of the whole "get God outta the school stupidity" dealio.

[Frozen Sooner]

It's English, presumably the language you speak. Out of curiosity, did "my guys" win that case? If the facts are exactly as you described, I agree-that's allowable and doesn't trigger any constitutional issue. Did the school put pressure on students to go to the flagpole and pray? Were other students allowed to have their prayer services there?

You directly referenced prayer before football games. That was the issue in Santa Fe, the leading "school prayer" case. It's an interesting deal. And for the record, I never had any problems with Professor Cross giving a prayer before OU games.

[JohnnyMack]

Hey. ****faces. Stop fagging up my thread. Let's get back on topic.

[JohnnyMack]

You donate to the Salvation Army? Good for you. I've got the same line on my Schedule E and it gets filled out every year (same charity in fact.) I wasn't aware that it was a conservatives-only club.


What's the necessity of government involvement in this situation?

OK. Now let's get back on topic.

[Frozen Sooner]

What's the necessity of government involvement in this situation?

OK. Now let's get back on topic.

In which situation? Donating money to charity? Giving me a tax break to do so? Got me, man, but far be it from me to argue for increasing taxes in this crowd.

[TUSooner]

Y'all probabably know Katrina's a sore spot for me, whenever I hear people even implying that all New Orleanians might lazy, stupid, helpless, dependent and all that. (Just ask Homey :0 ) (Plus nowadays I'm just plain tired of hearing about it as if it's the ONLY think that ever happened in New Orleans.)

But the undeniable fact is that most of the people who died or got stranded or suffered the most personal harm were the people who relied on the gubment to take care of them and who didn't take care of their own business and use the available opportunities to get the F out.

To digress a bit.... Other people lost their property through no fault of their own, and had every right to think that the gubment, p'ticklarly the Army Corps of Engineers that has been the Mississippi River Delta Czar & Bully for many decades, would keep the Lake and the Gulf out of the City as it promised to do.

APOLOGIES FOR STAYING OFF TOPIC :D

[Crucifax Autumn]

And Marilyn was a bigger girl, man. That's right up our alley. :D


I had to actually look it up, because I'm weird like that.

Marilyn was a size 16 and wore a 36D bra (38D by some accounts).

According to National Review, Monica is a size 16 and wears a 38D bra.

[C&CDean]

It's English, presumably the language you speak. Out of curiosity, did "my guys" win that case? If the facts are exactly as you described, I agree-that's allowable and doesn't trigger any constitutional issue. Did the school put pressure on students to go to the flagpole and pray? Were other students allowed to have their prayer services there?

You directly referenced prayer before football games. That was the issue in Santa Fe, the leading "school prayer" case. It's an interesting deal. And for the record, I never had any problems with Professor Cross giving a prayer before OU games.

JM,

Go **** up a rope. We're making your thread better.

Froze,

The students still do it, and I'm fairly confident we don't have any muslims down in Lex (actually we do, Shan owns all the convenience stores but I think he's really a closet jew cause he's a money-making entrepeneur who sells everything from rolling papers to fried pie including beer, etc.) who would want their own time at the pole. Besides, it's not a denominational thing.

Maybe you're ok with Dr. Cross' prayer before the OU games, but your people ain't.

[Soonrboy]

the pray at the flagpoles things still happen. The only law against it is that a school employee can't lead it or advertise it. It has to be student lead.

[Frozen Sooner]

Fair enough. I'm never going to go so far as to say "my guys" always get it right. They don't. I'm sure you'll admit at some point "your guys" don't always get it right either.

[Frozen Sooner]

the pray at the flagpoles things still happen. The only law against it is that a school employee can't lead it or advertise it. It has to be student lead.

That would be my reading of the Santa Fe rule as well.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Hey. ****faces. Stop fagging up my thread. Let's get back on topic.

What's gay about men discussing dress sizes? :D

[StoopTroup]

Did they legalize Pot?

I've been ill the last couple of days and this thread seems to reek of weed.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Did they legalize Pot?

I've been ill the last couple of days and this thread seems to reek of weed.

Half of us are insanely stoned and the other half got ahold of some bad meth.

Dean's just pizzed about trees or showers or something.

[1890MilesToNorman]

Dress sizes are irrelevant, I'm interested in the Cuban connection? Weren't they both inserted with one variety or another?

[Crucifax Autumn]

There were definitely cigar shaped objects poked into both of them, and maybe even a moose knob or 3.

[1890MilesToNorman]

I'm going down to the book suppository later to check yer facts Crux.

[Crucifax Autumn]

When you're there say "hi" to Lee Harvey Asswald.

[1890MilesToNorman]

I gotta pass by the grassy knob on the way and check for hoof prints.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Yep, them mooseknuckles leave a pretty obvious trail.

[1890MilesToNorman]

I don't think we really went to the moon Alice! Can you prove it?

[Crucifax Autumn]

http://static.pyzam.com/img/funnypics/1/missionmoon.jpg

[1890MilesToNorman]

Well that's conclusive.

[Crucifax Autumn]

You can tell it's real since those 2 guys aren't getting laid.

[Okla-homey]

It's English, presumably the language you speak.


Samuel L. Jackson, in "Pulp Fiction," said the above a lot cooler. Just saying. Google "English[...]do you speak it?" Just saying.;)

[Frozen Sooner]

Samuel L. Jackson, in "Pulp Fiction," said the above a lot cooler. Just saying. Google "English[...]do you speak it?" Just saying.;)

Yeah, me and Jules have a lot in common, except I have better hair. His wallet is cooler though.

[StoopTroup]

Is Tim Tebow doing a Mountain Bike Commercial during the Super Bowl? I heard his Mama thought about killing him at one time. Some Women really do hate men....glad she thought that one through though.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Yeah, me and Jules have a lot in common, except I have better hair. His wallet is cooler though.

Yep...Sam's a bad motherf...shut your mouth! :D

[Curly Bill]

Part of the solution, IMHO, is to educate our kids differently. This "one size fits all" approach K through 12 is dumb and inefficient. What we need to do is categorize kids at about age 12, into blue collar or white collar tracks and their education ought to be tailored appropriately. At least that way, a kid who pretty much everyone who is paying attention knows isn't headed on to college might actually learn how to DO something that will pay him enough to provide for himself and his family.

I haven't read the rest of this tread yet, but I couldn't agree more with this.

[Curly Bill]

OK, I did read all of the thread and I feel kinda stupid that I did. :(

[KC//CRIMSON]

Part of the solution, IMHO, is to educate our kids differently. This "one size fits all" approach K through 12 is dumb and inefficient. What we need to do is categorize kids at about age 12, into blue collar or white collar tracks and their education ought to be tailored appropriately. At least that way, a kid who pretty much everyone who is paying attention knows isn't headed on to college might actually learn how to DO something that will pay him enough to provide for himself and his family.

That's not a real solution because you're pre-determining a kid's potential at age 12. The current system works. If you can't excel pass your senior year of high school, then you go to trade school/vo-tech. The real solution starts at home with connected families so that you have a solid base to begin with. IMO.

[Curly Bill]

We have kids that have no business being in a high school and only F it up for those that do want to be there.

[Curly Bill]

...a better alternative to trade school for some of them might be to funnel them right into a prison. ;) :D

[Okla-homey]

That's not a real solution because you're pre-determining a kid's potential at age 12. The current system works. If you can't excel pass your senior year of high school, then you go to trade school/vo-tech. The real solution starts at home with connected families so that you have a solid base to begin with. IMO.

I certainly agree that kids from so-called "homes" with parents, more commonly a single parent, who don't get involved in the kid's life beyond providing a bed, are much of the problem. However, the system can't do anything about that. People with no business having kids have them every day. I would argue more so now, than in any time in our nation's history.
That's why I fear the illegitimate birth rate in the US is a catastrophe that most pundits don't lament because it's not PC to do so.

I know it seems somehow "unAmerican" to catagorize kids for public education purposes, but I feel the fact we don't is just another reason a vast percentage of our public secondary schools are horrible.

I think that by the time a kid starts ninth grade, he ought to be on a college track or a trade track. That way, by the time the trade-track kid finishes 12th, he knows how to do something. I think we owe it to him not to require him to spend money going to vo-tech after high school when he was perfectly capable of learning the same vo-tech skills while still high school age.

BTW, its worth mentioning that such an approach works pretty well in western Europe.

[I Am Right]

I have this idea rolling around in my head that Manifest Destiny is the underlying cause of most of the ills we're experiencing today. I'm having a tough time verbalizing this, but basically I think we expanded our nation in an unsustainable fashion beginning some 150+ years ago and it caused a shift in the mentality away from community and toward more individualism which led to we the people being more inherently selfish.

I wonder what the industrial revolution would have looked like had the Louisiana Purchase not taken place.

Am I nuts?

Yes, you are nuts! Other way around, we shifted from individualism to a more inherently selfish common good community. It does not take a village.

[Crucifax Autumn]

That's bull$hit. When peopel actually believed it "takes a village" you could be fairly certain your kid was being watched out for on their way to and from school. Proper community is an important part of civilized society.

[Frozen Sooner]

That's somewhat sketchy proposition that colonial America was less community oriented than modern day America.

[Curly Bill]

That's bull$hit. When peopel actually believed it "takes a village" you could be fairly certain your kid was being watched out for on their way to and from school. Proper community is an important part of civilized society.

Hillary?

[Crucifax Autumn]

Don't call me Hillary, I'm not the one that brought up the village thing! But overall she had a point with that one, though she took it too far and to topics that didn't need to be included.