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Chuck Bao
1/24/2010, 01:41 PM
This is an interesting Newsweek article on rethinking of economic theory following the recent global financial crisis. As the article states, economists are forced to rethink how to create economic growth, how to raise employment and how to spread wealth.

I have been saying for years that markets are inefficient and we should throw away all of the old economics textbooks that are based on this principle. In my opinion, there is little point of talking about long-term market efficiencies when the market now and in the future may be mis-priced.

I only see a very small part of the whole picture. I would blame the increased market inefficiencies and volatility on the growth in the investment fund industry, the sheer weight of money chasing stocks, bonds, currencies, etc., the short-term performance oriented nature of the industry, and speed/rapid turnover of investments giving rise to herd instinct to a much greater degree. A good example is Wall Street rapidly switching back and forth from stocks/commodities to dollar/treasurys based on the most recent economic data when the medium/long-term picture hasn’t really changed.

I don’t understand the theories - adaptive-markets or neuroeconomics - mentioned in the article. Maybe these new economic theories will lead to more direct meddling in the economy instead of relying on an increasingly volatile market. Maybe these theories will support the separation of the investment banking and banking industries again, as is now being proposed by the Obama administration. Maybe these economists are just saying that it is “complicated” and creating new buzzwords to get advisory and speaking gigs.

Anybody have an opinion?

http://www.newsweek.com/id/232111/page/1


May the Best Theory Win
How economists are competing to make sense of our failed financial system.
By Rana Foroohar | NEWSWEEK
Published Jan 22, 2010
From the magazine issue dated Feb 1, 2010

Economists aren't typically an emotional bunch. The dismal science attracts more sober-suited math geeks than poetic seekers. But in Atlanta earlier this month, the annual meeting of the American Economic Association was home to more soul-searching than number crunching. Hundreds of the profession's most eminent thinkers turned out to hear panel after panel discuss how, exactly, they'd gotten things so wrong. Why did most of the world's top economists fail to forecast the financial crisis? Should the teaching of economics in universities be entirely rethought? While past stars at the AEA have been conservative, finance--oriented intellectuals like Eugene Fama, this year's meeting belonged to the liberal realists—Paul Krugman, Robert Shiller, and the man of the hour, Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz. Stiglitz delivered a keynote debunking the profession's key tenet—namely, that markets can be trusted. Leading into the crisis, Stiglitz said, "markets were not efficient and not self-correcting, and now huge costs in the trillions of dollars are being borne by every part of society."

Wall Street's problems have captured the attention of Congress, the White House and the media. But on the country's Main Streets, worried workers, struggling small business owners and cash-strapped families are wondering if anyone is paying attention to them.

The hand-wringing will continue this week at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Last year the buzz at Davos focused on how to pull the world back from the brink. But the key topic this time will be the crisis of conscience in economics itself. For the first time in decades, the profession is rethinking all the big questions. How do we create growth? How do we raise employment? How do we spread wealth? At least since Reagan, the consensus was that you just had to make the pie grow, and the best way to do that was to unshackle markets and investors, and then get out of the way. Wealth, and thus health, happiness, and all other good things, would eventually trickle down to all.

Now that this view has been proved false, a whole slew of new theories are competing to take its place. All are based, to one extent or another, on the idea that people are irrational actors, and that markets aren't always efficient. And in many cases, the new theories blend economics with entirely different disciplines. The adaptive-markets hypothesis, for instance, proposes a new way of looking at the economy, and in particular the financial markets: through the prism of evolutionary biology. The idea is simple enough: adherents view the economy and financial markets as an ecosystem, with different "species" (hedge funds, investment banks) vying for "natural resources" (profits). These species adapt to one another, but also go through periods of sudden mutations (read: crises), which dramatically alter the makeup of the ecosystem. To advocates of this theory, cell biology could hold the key to a new, unifying theory of economics; policymakers like Larry Summers can craft better policy, they suggest, by considering all market players as parts of a living organism.

The theory, which first emerged in 2004 but has gained importance since the crisis, is now heralded in the international business press, and was recently employed by the Federal Reserve to explain the behavior of foreign-exchange markets. The idea of introducing Darwin to Adam Smith has captivated many of the professions' best minds. "Cell biologists are much more interesting to me than economists right now," says Yale professor Robert Shiller, one of the handful who predicted the crisis.

Another hybrid field that's gaining steam is neuroeconomics, which combines brain science and economics: researchers map subjects' brain patterns to confirm how economic decision making takes place. Their work provides a scientific grounding for the more familiar field of behavioral economics. This school of thought tries to account for the imperfect economic decision making of real people (like those of us who waste money by driving farther away to get "cheaper" gas). It's been around for 30-odd years, and has recently produced numerous bestsellers (Freakonomics, Predictably Irrational, Nudge, etc). But post-crisis, it's being taken much more seriously by academic economists themselves, even the more conservative ones, and under the Obama administration has started to have a measurable impact on policy.

The last time the world experienced this sort of reset was after the Great Depression. Prior to that, economists saw capitalism as a perfectly self--regulating system, an idea overturned by the crash. That's when British economist John Maynard Keynes articulated all the ways in which government could and should help bail out an economy. Keynesian economics eventually lost its mojo in the 1970s, when an oil shock and political unrest led to high inflation and unemployment, something the theory didn't account for. The changing of the ideological guard was complete when Ronald Reagan rode in to unshackle the rich, and inflation fighter Paul Volcker was replaced at the head of the Federal Reserve Bank by fizzy free-market enthusiast Alan Green-span. The laissez-faire "Chicago school" economics—embodied by University of Chicago professor Milton Friedman—would remain dominant for the next three decades.

The consensus didn't change even under the Democratic administration of Bill Clinton. "I think that a couple of key moments [came] when James Carville said he wanted to be reincarnated as the bond market, and [Treasury Secretary] Robert Rubin and his crowd began to overshadow the social-democratic faction led by [Labor Secretary] Robert Reich," says Robert Johnson, a former fund manager for George Soros who now heads up economic policy for the Roosevelt Institute in New York. Financial economists built complex models that assumed that all you needed to know about a stock was already built into its price. Bubbles came and went in currency, tech stocks, and emerging markets, but they were seen as temporary and relatively harmless. When they popped, it was the job of central bankers to loosen monetary policy and get the party going again. Since the core assumption was that man is rational and markets are efficient, concern about risk took a back seat to concerns over how to make the good times last. It was a simple and elegant way of looking at the world, but one in which, as Nobel laureate Paul Krugman has pointed out, beauty trumped truth.

The new economics is already having real-world impacts. Stiglitz, who won his Nobel for saying way back in 1986 that markets really weren't that efficient (heresy at the time), is currently racking up frequent-flier miles advising governments around the world about how to restructure their financial systems. The country that has perhaps traveled the furthest in this respect is Britain. At the height of the bubble days, the City was arguably more freewheeling than Wall Street. Now Bank of England chief Mervyn King wants to split up banks "too big to fail" and talks about his concern over the "moral hazard" problem of bailouts. Chief regulator Adair Turner, who also says Britain's financial industry is too big, wants to clamp down on financial innovation. He's a big fan of Paul Woolley, a reformed financier now pouring millions into a research institute he founded at the London School of Economics. (Tellingly, it's called the Centre for the Study of Capital Market Dysfunctionality.) In some ways, the City is seeing a return to the days of old-style British banking, in which concerns about risk helped balance the scramble for reward.

In the United States, Obama's new regulation czar, Cass Sunstein, is a behavioral economist. The administration has used behavioral ideas to structure policies such as the stimulus package, and they will likely inform any new banking regulation, which Obama has indicated should be based on real data rather than abstract models. Behavioral economics is also behind the new push for prohibitive taxes on cigarettes, trans-fat-rich foods, and dirty energy usage. "Behavioral economics just isn't radical for anyone under 40," says Richard Thaler, coauthor (with Sunstein) of Nudge. Given that many of the up-and-coming stars of the profession are now behavioralists, the theory's policy influence will only grow.

None of this means that the ideas of the Chicago School aren't still useful; even irrationality can and should be mathematically modeled and studied. But they won't carry the complete dominance they once did. No one knows which school of thought will come out on top next—it's worth remembering that although the New Deal started in 1933, Keynes didn't write his General Theory until 1936. And those looking for the next grand, unifying theory of economics should perhaps consider the possibility that the greatest lesson of this downturn is that we shouldn't rely on just one tidy idea to encompass a world of human complexity. "We know that efficient-markets theory isn't completely right, but neither is anything else," says Thaler. The only real consensus view expressed at the AEA meeting was that economics is in for a difficult, yet potentially very fruitful period of questioning and cross-pollination. What finally emerges is likely to be more accurate than what came before—and less rational.

With Barrett Sheridan in New York and Stefan Theil in Berlin

royalfan5
1/24/2010, 02:07 PM
I might need awhile to fully asborb that article, but my sense right now is that the commodity traders are still trying to trade the last market more than the next market, and we still haven't figured out the USDA is going to smack us with with 2x4 every report.

Frozen Sooner
1/24/2010, 02:20 PM
I'm fairly sympathetic to the article's contention, but the neo-classicists are going to just respond by saying that the markets were distorted by interventionism, so of course they couldn't self-correct.

Sooner Eclipse
1/24/2010, 03:07 PM
and they would be wrong how? Behaviorial Economics is nothing more than wealth redistribution and behavior control combined into a money making socialist idea.

SicEmBaylor
1/24/2010, 03:10 PM
I'm not a fan of global markets. I'd much rather see more localized and regionalized economies

Frozen Sooner
1/24/2010, 03:25 PM
and they would be wrong how? Behaviorial Economics is nothing more than wealth redistribution and behavior control combined into a money making socialist idea.

Because claiming that the only reason your ideas never work is because nobody's really tried it is the same argument that Marxists make. The international debt and CDS market is about as close as you're ever going to get to a perfectly competitive model on this Earth, and it failed to adequately price signal. Whether that failure is the result of artificially low interest rate (and that argument can certainly be made) or the result of industry capture of ratings agencies and various other externalities (which is also a compelling argument) is subject to debate and which one you believe likely has a lot to do with your preconceptions.

Frozen Sooner
1/24/2010, 03:33 PM
What I'm getting at, by the way, is that you're never going to have a perfectly competitive market like classicists dream of. There will never be a marketplace where no actor cannot distort the market at all. You can get very asymptotically close to such a market, but it'll never be there. The same goes for a command economy-you'll always have black markets and the like. An apologist can always make the claim that the market had some sort of hidden flaw that destroys their assumptions once it collapses-it's almost a form of begging the question.

I personally think that the failure of the CDS market to adequately price signal was a combination of both interest rate distortions brought on by central bankers not doing their jobs and through improper signaling by ratings agencies. One was a failure of too much regulation, one a failure of not enough. You have to pay attention to the incentives-people will do what they have personal incentives to do, and you can't predict micro behavior by simply taking the best macro solution and assuming people will act consistent with that.

Chuck Bao
1/24/2010, 03:41 PM
There will always be excuses as to why the market failed to function properly.

In my opinion, it is very easy to observe markets behaving irrationally, given short-term speculation.

King Barry's Back
1/25/2010, 06:41 AM
There will always be excuses as to why the market failed to function properly.

In my opinion, it is very easy to observe markets behaving irrationally, given short-term speculation.

"Hundreds of the profession's most eminent thinkers turned out to hear panel after panel discuss how, exactly, they'd gotten things so wrong. Why did most of the world's top economists fail to forecast the financial crisis?" -- NEWSWEEK

Not sure how many other economists are on this board, but I feel some need to respond here (though technically I no longer work as an economist.)

Re: NEWSWEEK, honestly, I didn't make it past the first paragraph statement, why did they "fail to forecast the financial crisis?"

Let me tell you something right now, right off the bat. I can assure you that plenty of people foresaw this crisis coming, for years. I specifically remember in 2001, I was seriously considering buying a house, but I wanted to be careful and not make such a major investment based on hype and what others were doing.

As I read real estate literature -- in 2001 before the terrorist attacks -- I foudn that almost unanimously the opinion was that the real estate market (at least in the DC-area) was in a serious bubble-state, that the then-current prices were unsustainable, and that a readjustment was past over due.

I also read plenty of speculation about what would happen when that bubble burst -- and these included terms like "under water", default, "financial instability" and "government underwriting" of the financial system. I opted not to buy.

Now when did that bubble actually burst? Seven years later. Had I bought, and sold it after five years -- I would have made several 10's of thousands of dollars. SO, in not buying, was I right or wrong? And who really has the ability to judge?

Despite dire warnings about housing bubbles, people -- home buyers and ESPECIALLY home sellers - continued to rake in LOTS O' DOUGH during those seven years. The only trick was to jump out at the right time -- which is only very rarely done.

And regarding Chuck Bao's quote above -- who says the market failed to operate properly? That's very much an "eye of the beholder" judgement.

I could go on all day long, but the simple fact is that almost every market you interact with, performs marvellously in terms of providing valuable goods and services -- and often at declining prices in the long-term.

You can buy about anything at Walmart, you can get your haircut at a dozen or more places at a dozen or more prices, you can buy unleaded at the gas pump, and all the food you want from Sam's, Homeland or Reasor's.

There was a problem with real estate -- complicated by the fact that a bunch of financiers bet billions on a bubble market -- and now we should bail on markets?

I just don't see it.

And one more point -- Classicists, in general, are not in "love" with markets. More likely, they just don't see any alternatives that are likely to perform better.

Remember, during those seven years -- govt had plenty of opportunity to act in myriad ways to dampen the real estate market. And they didn't.

Ultimately, the market corrected itself. Govt still hasn't figured out it's own debt situation.

Jacie
1/25/2010, 07:37 AM
My dad, who was not a college-educated economist, had a priciple he operated under: buy low - sell high.

If you can do better than that, lead me.

Okla-homey
1/25/2010, 09:23 AM
Maybe these theories will support the separation of the investment banking and banking industries again, as is now being proposed by the Obama administration. Maybe these economists are just saying that it is “complicated” and creating new buzzwords to get advisory and speaking gigs.

Anybody have an opinion?

http://www.newsweek.com/id/232111/page/1

Yep. If the uber-fail Obama administration favors it, that means it's commie, bad for America and doomed. For the record. And stuff. With tongue only partly in cheek. ;)

Bourbon St Sooner
1/25/2010, 11:10 AM
Clearly the "rational man" too often gives way to the irrational man. I think the Volcker Rule proposed by Obama is a step in the right direction.

Chuck Bao
1/25/2010, 02:35 PM
"Hundreds of the profession's most eminent thinkers turned out to hear panel after panel discuss how, exactly, they'd gotten things so wrong. Why did most of the world's top economists fail to forecast the financial crisis?" -- NEWSWEEK

Not sure how many other economists are on this board, but I feel some need to respond here (though technically I no longer work as an economist.)

Re: NEWSWEEK, honestly, I didn't make it past the first paragraph statement, why did they "fail to forecast the financial crisis?"

Let me tell you something right now, right off the bat. I can assure you that plenty of people foresaw this crisis coming, for years. I specifically remember in 2001, I was seriously considering buying a house, but I wanted to be careful and not make such a major investment based on hype and what others were doing.

As I read real estate literature -- in 2001 before the terrorist attacks -- I foudn that almost unanimously the opinion was that the real estate market (at least in the DC-area) was in a serious bubble-state, that the then-current prices were unsustainable, and that a readjustment was past over due.

I also read plenty of speculation about what would happen when that bubble burst -- and these included terms like "under water", default, "financial instability" and "government underwriting" of the financial system. I opted not to buy.

Now when did that bubble actually burst? Seven years later. Had I bought, and sold it after five years -- I would have made several 10's of thousands of dollars. SO, in not buying, was I right or wrong? And who really has the ability to judge?

Despite dire warnings about housing bubbles, people -- home buyers and ESPECIALLY home sellers - continued to rake in LOTS O' DOUGH during those seven years. The only trick was to jump out at the right time -- which is only very rarely done.

And regarding Chuck Bao's quote above -- who says the market failed to operate properly? That's very much an "eye of the beholder" judgement.

I could go on all day long, but the simple fact is that almost every market you interact with, performs marvellously in terms of providing valuable goods and services -- and often at declining prices in the long-term.

You can buy about anything at Walmart, you can get your haircut at a dozen or more places at a dozen or more prices, you can buy unleaded at the gas pump, and all the food you want from Sam's, Homeland or Reasor's.

There was a problem with real estate -- complicated by the fact that a bunch of financiers bet billions on a bubble market -- and now we should bail on markets?

I just don't see it.

And one more point -- Classicists, in general, are not in "love" with markets. More likely, they just don't see any alternatives that are likely to perform better.

Remember, during those seven years -- govt had plenty of opportunity to act in myriad ways to dampen the real estate market. And they didn't.

Ultimately, the market corrected itself. Govt still hasn't figured out it's own debt situation.

Great post, King Barry's Back.

I remember warning my American friends following the Asian economic crisis back in '98 and '99 to be careful in not over-extending themselves in debt because Asia would discount the world. They laughed at me at the time as the US was still in the middle of its short-lived internet boom. I guess Americans did benefit for some time by all of the cheap goods that could be bought at Walmart. But slowly, American jobs were lost to Asia. It took longer than I had forecast, but it did happen.

I partially blame irrational currency markets for some of it. Ever since George Soros short sold $10bn of of pound sterling and forced the Bank of England to devalue the pound, currency traders had been looking for the next country to bring down. They found Thailand in '97 and attacked, starting the Asian economic crisis. Officials of the IMF and World Bank placed the blame squarely on Thailand and not at all on the currrency speculators who worked for their close banking friends in the US. They demanded severe action that may have been suitable for South American countries, but not Thailand. They didn't understand the immediate ripple effect it would have throughout Southeast Asia. They didn't understand the long-term global implications of cheap Asian currencies.

I don't see this as bailing on the markets or the market pricing mechanicism. You are right, King Barry's Back, there is no alternative. I do think that there needs to be a greater understanding of the forces driving the markets and the implications that they have on the real sector.

As I mentioned before, markets seem to be increasingly volatile due to speculation. Just look at the oil price spike in '08.

Position Limit
1/25/2010, 03:18 PM
what was gained and what was lost? if the inefficiency never existed where would we be today? what would economic numbers look like today? they would look alot like the current economy. too many seem quick to underestimate the great game of the last 30 years. mortgage backed securities. but which inefficient market is everybody concerned about trying to fix? the fruit market? stock market? treasury market (massive bubble)? futures and options market? meat market? widget market? all of the above have taken a life of its own and cannot be changed. it's to large with money and technology to have any major impact. besides, where would be be without it? wanna fix the markets, then regulate the products. it's that simple. everything else is just conversation. with the ability to leverage an "asset", there will always be inefficiency and arbitrage but without it, where would we be?
what would home prices be worth without the ability to mortgage? a fraction of what you paid. your home is grossly overpriced. so ask yourself, how efficient do you want your markets?
how can i can an invite to the next great econ convention?

Veritas
1/25/2010, 03:56 PM
Rethinking the markets as a whole is the height of silliness, as KBB pointed out.

The recent economic situation pivots around one key issue: abuse of debt. Consumers abused credit and bought homes that had they put pen to paper they would have realized they could not afford. Wall Street abused debt instruments by laundering basement tranche debt into AAA debt.

Fundamentally, this whole deal is super simple. It's the mechanisms employed that are mind-bogglingly complex.

Just because the baby took a leak in the bathwater doesn't mean we need to kill the baby.

Chuck Bao
1/25/2010, 04:00 PM
what was gained and what was lost? if the inefficiency never existed where would we be today? what would economic numbers look like today? they would look alot like the current economy. too many seem quick to underestimate the great game of the last 30 years. mortgage backed securities. but which inefficient market is everybody concerned about trying to fix? the fruit market? stock market? treasury market (massive bubble)? futures and options market? meat market? widget market? all of the above have taken a life of its own and cannot be changed. it's to large with money and technology to have any major impact. besides, where would be be without it? wanna fix the markets, then regulate the products. it's that simple. everything else is just conversation. with the ability to leverage an "asset", there will always be inefficiency and arbitrage but without it, where would we be?
what would home prices be worth without the ability to mortgage? a fraction of what you paid. your home is grossly overpriced. so ask yourself, how efficient do you want your markets?
how can i can an invite to the next great econ convention?

Good point. I wouldn't have a job if the markets were efficient.

I think we are all talking about different markets and that is still quite useful. The Newsweek article wasn't specific about what markets, so everyone's opinion is great.

I think the new economic thinking will be first manifested in the Volcker Rule mentioned by Bourbon St Sooner.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/21/AR2010012104935.html

Alright, I will admit that I do not like Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, who played a big part in the Asian economic crisis and protecting his cronies involved in currency speculation.

Position Limit
1/25/2010, 04:10 PM
GDP cannot exist at a supportive level without a bubble economy. dont fix anything. regulate products, and for the life of me i dont understand why the big swinging dicks dont have to mark to market. as a market maker myself, i could get into serious legal trouble if i erroneusly mark my markets up daily. i guess we all need trillion dollar assets to avoild the rules of the small players. fix the 2 aforemention problems and let the next great bubble expand.

Frozen Sooner
1/25/2010, 04:17 PM
Wolf has an interesting book called Fixing Global Finance in which he posits that there's really no such thing as a speculative bubble. He does a great job of exploding the myth (as he calls it) of the Tulip Bubble.

Chuck Bao
1/25/2010, 06:40 PM
GDP cannot exist at a supportive level without a bubble economy. dont fix anything. regulate products, and for the life of me i dont understand why the big swinging dicks dont have to mark to market. as a market maker myself, i could get into serious legal trouble if i erroneusly mark my markets up daily. i guess we all need trillion dollar assets to avoild the rules of the small players. fix the 2 aforemention problems and let the next great bubble expand.

Position Limit, that is a very interesting take. I would love to learn more about what you do. I am curious about your views when a market is obviously unstainable and still you mark to market or when, as was the case recently, when liquidity dried up and the market was unreliable. I get your main point about "too big to fail" and how that principle itself undermined the market integrity and the conditions that everyone else had to work with. I would hope that the Volcker Rule would help address that.

Chuck Bao
1/25/2010, 06:56 PM
Wolf has an interesting book called Fixing Global Finance in which he posits that there's really no such thing as a speculative bubble. He does a great job of exploding the myth (as he calls it) of the Tulip Bubble.

I will order the book from Amazon.com but the reviews there were not so positive. Asia has indeed racked up huge foreign reserve surpluses, but it is preposterous to suggest that they redirect those monies to stimulate their own economies. It is not going to happen. One good reason is that Asia remembers the Asian economic crisis and how foreign fund flows turned suddenly very, very negative in attack mode. China wasn't affected and even China remembers the cluster**** that that became. More legacy from current US Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner. That is ridiculously foolish. If I suggested some of the things that he mentions in that book to my friends at the Bank of Thailand, they would have security escort me out of the building and then beat me up out on the lawns in front of the building. And, I think I would deserve that beating.

Frozen Sooner
1/25/2010, 07:05 PM
I will order the book from Amazon.com but the reviews there were not so positive. Asia has indeed racked up huge foreign reserve surpluses, but it is preposterous to suggest that they redirect those monies to stimulate their own economies. It is not going to happen. One good reason is that Asia remembers the Asian economic crisis and how foreign fund flows turned suddenly very, very negative in attack mode. China wasn't affected and even China remembers the cluster**** that that became. More legacy from current US Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner. That is ridiculously foolish. If I suggested some of the things that he mentions in that book to my friends at the Bank of Thailand, they would have security escort me out of the building and then beat me up out on the lawns in front of the building. And, I think I would deserve that beating.

I found it a refreshing counterpoint to Kindleberger et al. Though I may have my books confused.

After looking at my bookcase, I did get the book wrong. Wasn't Wolf but Garber's Famous First Bubbles I was thinking of.

royalfan5
1/25/2010, 08:00 PM
http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2010/01/mental_health_break_28.php

This thread seems like a good spot for this.

Chuck Bao
1/25/2010, 08:56 PM
http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2010/01/mental_health_break_28.php

This thread seems like a good spot for this.

I never learned economics like that. That was fun. It would be interesting to imagine how both of these guys would react to markets these day.

StoopTroup
1/25/2010, 09:30 PM
Once Scott Brown is President, America will be saved.