Serious question about minority hires in sports

[Collier11]

We hear all of the time that there isn't equal access to African Americans and African Americans don't have near as many head coaching jobs as they should and I am fine with that, my question is this.

Why is it only African American? If these people trumpeting minority opportunities really cared as they say they do why don't they push for equal access to all minorities?

[Doged]

Careful, now. I got called all kinds of moron for making that point a couple years ago. :)

[Boomer.....]

This doesn't only apply to sports.

[Collier11]

Well one of the arguments made against our point that I have heard is that there arent as many Asians, Indians, etc... that coach in football and I call BS! Thats just an excuse like the people who used to say that African Americans werent smart enough to be a head coach, it is all BS!

[Collier11]

This doesn't only apply to sports.

Yea but this is a sports board, pay attention dumbarse! ;)

[JLEW1818]

Our president is black...

I assume the NFL is not racist ?

[Collier11]

Sometimes I wonder if you are coherent when you post Jlew, lol! WhAT?

[soonerchris]

I really urge all of you who read this thread please please please find a recording of a good comedian, ralphy may. His routine titled austintatious speaks right to the heart of this question. In a nut shell if the enimies of the USA could care less if they kill african, asian or mexican americans and are content with killing just americans why should we care what we call ourselves. After all aren't we all americans?

[JLEW1818]

Sometimes I wonder if you are coherent when you post Jlew, lol! WhAT?

The United States has a black president

is it harder to become a black NFL coach ? than the president of the United States?

maybe? idk

lol, i don't care black white green yellow blue

I'll take Tony Dungy over 99% of coaches

[Collier11]

I really urge all of you who read this thread please please please find a recording of a good comedian, ralphy may. His routine titled austintatious speaks right to the heart of this question. In a nut shell if the enimies of the USA could care less if they kill african, asian or mexican americans and are content with killing just americans why should we care what we call ourselves. After all aren't we all americans?

Of course man but thats a whole other discussion and not for the football forum

[Collier11]

Well the overriding point, whether it be a football coach or The President is that it is about time we start hiring/electing the best person for the job, regardless of race. If people did that then we wouldnt have to have the Rooney rule and all of the griping that goes on in CFB. We also wouldnt have the trumpeting for more African Americans to be hired while all other minorities get left out

[JLEW1818]

there are many more whites in America, but many more blacks that play in the NFL

Blacks are better than Whites at football... so maybe more Whites want to go into coaching at an earlier age? lol ? idk.... since many more Whites don't get the chance to play college football, but did play high school football....

[goingoneight]

We hear all of the time that there isn't equal access to African Americans and African Americans don't have near as many head coaching jobs as they should and I am fine with that, my question is this.

Why is it only African American? If these people trumpeting minority opportunities really cared as they say they do why don't they push for equal access to all minorities?

What do you mean... these people? :bsmf:

[swardboy]

Fire Venables....

[goingoneight]

The Minority Rules in the NFL (and IDK if it goes for college) is more meant to promote equal oppurtunity... unfortunately, it looks like you're just interviewing your token black candidate.

[Collier11]

What do you mean... these people? :bsmf:

:eek:


The Minority Rules in the NFL (and IDK if it goes for college) is more meant to promote equal oppurtunity... unfortunately, it looks like you're just interviewing your token black candidate.

^ This

That is a whole other issue with it. In the meantime we keep seeing unsuccesful retreads and others arent given an oppurtunity

[RedstickSooner]

I'm not real keen on how the NFL approaches this, because the rule simply means they drag some token black coach in every time they want to make a hire -- even when they already know who they actually want to pick up. The rule is in place because of a disparity which I understand to be upsetting: It's a league full of black players, yet largely devoid of black coaches.

Seems to me head coaches aren't really the issue, though. The issue is you'd need more black players trying for coaching gigs and learning the coaching side of the game to provide a broader pool. Over time, that'd lead naturally to more black head coaches.

While I'm not a complete idiot, and I do realize that there is some racism left, I think we've managed to put some of the worst prejudices behind us. At this point, the lack of black head coaches, to me, seems to reflect more on the lack of good black coaches less than it reflects on some innate discriminatory bias. All the NFL cares about is winning. A coach could be a transgender midget Aboriginee woman, and they'd hire her if she was a DC whose defense had managed to be in the top 3 statistically 8 years in a row.

[goingoneight]

That's why the NFL isn't so exciting to me. Retreads.


"Let's fire our coach!

Now... he'd gone... thank god we got rid of that guy. Now what other schmuck can we bring out of retirment/firement?

Of course! He only had those back-to-back-to-back horrible years at team X... but he was an awesome offensive coordinator at team Y like 30 years ago!"

[badger]

The Rooney Rule has seemed to promote more hiring of minorities, but I don't think that it's just because NFL teams are forced to interview a minority candidate.

Rather, I think more minority candidates are considering becoming NFL head coaches because they know there will be interview opportunities.

[sooner59]

The Rooney Rule is good hypothetically. The problem is that many of the owners who make decisions in the NFL are old white guys who "may or may not" still live in the old ways, so to say. So they can interview a black guy and satisfy the rule and hire who they want.

On the other hand. There are MUCH less black coaches in football than white coaches, so just because you would rather hire a guy who happens to be white, doesn't make you racist. It might be that that guy was the best option given experience, etc.

Personally, I don't care about color, race, gender, etc......if somebody is a winner, they are a winner. I want to win games. If that certain person is the one I think that can win the most games, that is who I want.

There are people on both sides of this argument that don't see the forest for the trees, IMO.

On a side note, what Jlew said about tons of white FB players not making it to the NFL and wanting to be coaches.....that might be something to look into.

[OU_Sooners75]

Personally, who give a crap what color the persons skin is. If they are more than qualified for the job, then they should be interviewed and hired.

However, if there is a person of a different skin tone that is more qualified...they should also be interviewed and hired...and if that means over another race..then so be it.


The race card in sports coaching is just affirmative action at its best!

Why would I hire John Doe when Jim Smith is better?

[OU_Sooners75]

The Rooney Rule is good hypothetically. The problem is that many of the owners who make decisions in the NFL are old white guys who "may or may not" still live in the old ways, so to say. So they can interview a black guy and satisfy the rule and hire who they want.

On the other hand. There are MUCH less black coaches in football than white coaches, so just because you would rather hire a guy who happens to be white, doesn't make you racist. It might be that that guy was the best option given experience, etc.

Personally, I don't care about color, race, gender, etc......if somebody is a winner, they are a winner. I want to win games. If that certain person is the one I think that can win the most games, that is who I want.

There are people on both sides of this argument that don't see the forest for the trees, IMO.

On a side note, what Jlew said about tons of white FB players not making it to the NFL and wanting to be coaches.....that might be something to look into.


I disagree with the Rooney Rule, period. And I am a very big Steeler fan and love the fact that Rooney has been able to do what he has.

However, why should a company or institution interview a person of one skin color and not a person from another? Why?

If the guy/gal is a good candidate for the job, then interview him/her. If not, there should not be a policy stating I must interview someone I know will not get the job.

Kinda pathetic really.

[tommieharris91]

We hear all of the time that there isn't equal access to African Americans and African Americans don't have near as many head coaching jobs as they should and I am fine with that, my question is this.

Why is it only African American? If these people trumpeting minority opportunities really cared as they say they do why don't they push for equal access to all minorities?

The Rooney Rule wasn't created only for blacks.

[Collier11]

yea because anyone who ever gripes about enough minorities being given oppurtunities ever talks about anyone other than blacks. Again, I want everyone who is qualified to be given equal oppurtunity but that doesnt just mean white and it doesnt just mean black

[Tulsa_Fireman]

I'd be curious to see the percentage of minorities that take GA positions with universities to develop their coaching careers and compare that to the racial cross section of those in sport.

After all, the best players don't always end up as the best coaches. Ask Ted Williams' head.

[JLEW1818]

The Rooney Rule is good hypothetically. The problem is that many of the owners who make decisions in the NFL are old white guys who "may or may not" still live in the old ways, so to say. So they can interview a black guy and satisfy the rule and hire who they want.

On the other hand. There are MUCH less black coaches in football than white coaches, so just because you would rather hire a guy who happens to be white, doesn't make you racist. It might be that that guy was the best option given experience, etc.

Personally, I don't care about color, race, gender, etc......if somebody is a winner, they are a winner. I want to win games. If that certain person is the one I think that can win the most games, that is who I want.

There are people on both sides of this argument that don't see the forest for the trees, IMO.

On a side note, what Jlew said about tons of white FB players not making it to the NFL and wanting to be coaches.....that might be something to look into.


I'm with you.. I want a winner... i want to win..

I have that at OU... and i wouldn't care if he was black

[SoonerForever]

well at least on this forum, you can discuss this in an open way (Sooner Times threatens to ban you for political content for the very same subject).

[Sooner70]

I think it has to do with the ethnicity of player population. There's a lot of African American college FB players, therefore (right or wrong) the reasoning goes that there should be a similar significant number of AA coaches. To some degree, true also of basketball, but there's more AA coaches there. You don't hear this in other sports......for example, you don't hear any outcry there should be any AA professional ice hockey coaches, because there's not a significant AA player population there.

I dont' know the stats of breakdown of player population ethnicity vs. sport for college vs. pros and similarly for coaches, same sports. That info is probably around somewhere & would be interesting to see. I do think it's moving more in that direction as there seems to be more & more AA in prime Assistant roles moving to HC jobs, like Kevin Sumlin here at University of Houston. Also, recall John Blake had the reins at OU awhile.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

IMO, the day we start counting up the color of a person in a position and start saying the X% of each position needs to be Z color, is the day the U.S. is done. Best person for the job, IMO - that is what made this country great. Not that that doesn't need a little help from time to time, but I hope most people get the jist.

[Clever Trevor]

We hear all of the time that there isn't equal access to African Americans and African Americans don't have near as many head coaching jobs as they should and I am fine with that, my question is this.

Why is it only African American? If these people trumpeting minority opportunities really cared as they say they do why don't they push for equal access to all minorities?

I think you have to look at the assistant ranks. It's largely black and white. How many Asians are assistants? How many Hispanics? AAs are brought up in the conversation more just because they are more prevalent than the other minorities in coaching.

edit:
BTw- I counted through the first 5 teams in the nfl (Arizona - Carolina) and found 24 assitants or coordinators that were black. Didn't see many or any Hispanics or Asians.

[BigTime1]

Im a best man for the job guy too... Im totally not at all race biased though... and some of my best friends in the world are African Americans and Ill do anything for them just the same as my white friends but when it comes to a hiring process the best man should get the job. To me its just as racist to hire someone for their color...than it is to not hire them for it...Same holds true with males and females it doesnt matter how many of each you have working for you...You hire the good ones as they come through the door no matter gender or race... I was just as excited when John Blake was comin in as I was when Schnellenberger or Gibbs were...Until They ALL SUCKED...and again I was happy when Stoops was comin and still couldnt be happier because he is making it happen and is the best man for the job.

[OUmillenium]

I think it has to do with the ethnicity of player population. There's a lot of African American college FB players, therefore (right or wrong) the reasoning goes that there should be a similar significant number of AA coaches. To some degree, true also of basketball, but there's more AA coaches there. You don't hear this in other sports......for example, you don't hear any outcry there should be any AA professional ice hockey coaches, because there's not a significant AA player population there.

I dont' know the stats of breakdown of player population ethnicity vs. sport for college vs. pros and similarly for coaches, same sports. That info is probably around somewhere & would be interesting to see. I do think it's moving more in that direction as there seems to be more & more AA in prime Assistant roles moving to HC jobs, like Kevin Sumlin here at University of Houston. Also, recall John Blake had the reins at OU awhile.

You are right. I believe we will be seeing more and more AA NFL coaches in the not too distant future. It's just a matter of 1.growing the pool of AA college assistants, 2.then letting them move up the ladder. Step 1. is already underway. We should be seeing more AA college head coaches and later NFL head coaches.

[BermudaSooner]

Well the overriding point, whether it be a football coach or The President is that it is about time we start hiring/electing the best person for the job, regardless of race. If people did that then we wouldnt have to have the Rooney rule and all of the griping that goes on in CFB. We also wouldnt have the trumpeting for more African Americans to be hired while all other minorities get left out

Who says we aren't hiring the best person for the job? The stats of "there are X% of blacks that play football, but only Y% of coaching jobs" does not prove anything. Maybe there are more qualified white coaches, like Jlew suggests. Without doing a study of available coaches and then drawing conclusions, the current "proof" of bias isn't proof at all.

Are you suggesting that these owners who spend a huge amount of money on their teams are biggoted enough that they would hire a worse coach just because he isn't black?

The Rooney rule is ridiculous, and has the results one would expect--it hurts African Americans. African Americans get sham interviews and likely are hired less because of the rule. Why? Much like the American Disabilities Act which when passed saw the quick decline of the hiring of disabled Americans because it became much for difficult to fire them if they weren't up to the task. Here, if you fire a Tyrone Willingham even if his record sucks, you get blasted for firing him because he is black. So, why hire to begin with?

Put it this way, if I owned an NFL franchise I'd want to hire the best coach possible, but if I had 2 close candidates, one white and one black, I would likely hire the white guy just because all of the hassle and protest that would inevitably be associated if I had to fire the black coach.

I too would like to see a situation where the best for the job was hired, no matter what his or her race. Forcing owners to hold sham interviews or shaming them in the press isn't going to solve the problem (assuming there is one).

[yermom]

I'd be curious to see the percentage of minorities that take GA positions with universities to develop their coaching careers and compare that to the racial cross section of those in sport.


i've wondered about this as well

[badger]

I would like to see the NCAA encourage minority coaching, but not have the issue forced on schools. Rather, offer incentives for it.

An idea that's been brought up before is to allow schools to have an additional graduate assistant if it is a minority. This is a great idea, because it could apply for any sport and would get younger, bright students involved in coaching. Like the Rooney Rule, it might also encourage minorities to consider coaching as a career more than before.

[MojoRisen]

That is a good idea and would benefit the coaching staff as well.

[Scott D]

well at least on this forum, you can discuss this in an open way (Sooner Times threatens to ban you for political content for the very same subject).

I'm pretty sure the only non sports topics you can have over at Sooner Times were yesterday's Matlock or Murder She Wrote episodes, and what the Early Bird Special is going to be at Bob Evans today. ;)

[Scott D]

Bermuda, nobody blasted Washington for firing Willingham, the reason ND got blasted was because he was the first coach ever in ND history to not have the original 4 years of his contract honored by the school.

Mike Tomlin was a direct beneficiary of the "Rooney Rule" as it was, he was an afterthought as an interviewee for the Steelers, and he ended up getting the job. A damn good thing for OU to be honest, since he likely would have become a coach at one of our regular opposing schools.

The Rooney Rule is only a sham when the ownership (Seattle) has a specific coach in mind for the job (Carroll), and they have a tough time getting ANYONE to interview, because nobody wants to interview for a job they know in advance is going to a specific individual.

It's a slippery subject to be honest Collier, it's sad that rules have to be made regarding hiring practices, but as in most things it becomes less of an issue as people continue to be successful in ventures. Look back to 10 years ago how many black Head Coaches were in the NFL and compare that to this past season. The NFL has certainly made progress on the opportunity front, College Football is lagging behind, but making a fair amount of strides.

Compare it to baseball, where a higher percentage of managers and coaches are minorities (primarily latin speaking), and the NBA goes without saying.

[TexasLidig8r]

Our president is black...



Point of Order sir!

Our president is 50% black, 50% white.

Why have we jumped so soon to "he's black" when.. well... he is just as white as he is black.

[Leroy Lizard]

The Rooney Rule is only a sham when the ownership (Seattle) has a specific coach in mind for the job (Carroll), and they have a tough time getting ANYONE to interview, because nobody wants to interview for a job they know in advance is going to a specific individual.

The trouble is that in the ordinary job market, you have no way of knowing if the job has already been "filled." So you end up traveling 200 miles to interview for a job you have no chance of getting. Do that a few times in a month and you will see the problems with forcing businesses to interview minorities.

If a business has someone in mind, just let it hire him.

[DakotaSooner]

Who knows, maybe 50 years from now, there will be some new rule that forces you to interview white coaches.

[OU_Sooners75]

Point of Order sir!

Our president is 50% black, 50% white.

Why have we jumped so soon to "he's black" when.. well... he is just as white as he is black.


I have never seen a black white guy before!

I have a son that is interacial....though he is 50/50...he is looked at by everyone that does not know him and his parents as he is black.

Just the way it works when you look at someone and their skin color is of different color. Sad really!

[OU_Sooners75]

I would like to see the NCAA encourage minority coaching, but not have the issue forced on schools. Rather, offer incentives for it.

An idea that's been brought up before is to allow schools to have an additional graduate assistant if it is a minority. This is a great idea, because it could apply for any sport and would get younger, bright students involved in coaching. Like the Rooney Rule, it might also encourage minorities to consider coaching as a career more than before.


That is not a great idea! Period!

People want equality...then work your *** off to be equal in a job!

When affirmative action takes place...it does not benefit anyone but the lazy!

[Jacie]

All the NFL cares about is winning. A coach could be a transgender midget Aboriginee woman, and they'd hire her if she was a DC whose defense had managed to be in the top 3 statistically 8 years in a row.

Or in the top 8 statistically 3 years in a row!

[TexasLidig8r]

I have never seen a black white guy before!



http://blogs.theage.com.au/schembri/Michael-Jackson1.jpg

[Frozen Sooner]

When affirmative action takes place...it does not benefit anyone but the lazy!

That Clarence Thomas...what a lazy jerk.

[OU_Sooners75]

http://blogs.theage.com.au/schembri/Michael-Jackson1.jpg

LMFAO

Touche!

We are talking mixed children, not someone that paid big money to change his appearance.

[OU_Sooners75]

That Clarence Thomas...what a lazy jerk.


Yeah, affirmative action everything to do with that one. :rolleyes:

[Crucifax Autumn]

Are Star Trek aliens really minorities?

[Frozen Sooner]

Yeah, affirmative action everything to do with that one. :rolleyes:

Apparently you haven't read Justice Thomas' writings on the subject. He freely admits to having been a beneficiary of affirmative action in his admission to law school. I've heard it from his own mouth in person.

"But for [affirmative action laws], God only knows where I would be today. These laws and their proper application are all that stand between the first 17 years of my life and the second 17 years."-Clarence Thomas, 1983

[Crucifax Autumn]

I've read that as well, though now that he doesn't need affirmative action to succeed he is against it.

[ADs_Agent]

just invoke a meritocracy and forget race. put the best people in the positions that they deserve and forget skin color/religion/sex etc

[Frozen Sooner]

I've read that as well, though now that he doesn't need affirmative action to succeed he is against it.

That's a bit of a simplification of his views. He is for affirmative action that's economically based, which should overall get about the same results without the Constitutional problems he has with it.

[TexasLidig8r]

just invoke a meritocracy and forget race. put the best people in the positions that they deserve and forget skin color/religion/sex etc


WHAT????

You mean have jobs and opportunities and pay and raises and promotions be based on hard work? And intelligence? And talent? And Drive? And commitment? And resolve?

BAH! This is AMERICA DAMMIT! The land of enablement and entitlement!

:mad:

[C&CDean]

Don't make me turn you green lid.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

http://www.movieactors.com/freezeframes5/BlazeSaddle141.jpeg

WHEAH ALL DE WHITE WIMMEN AT?

[yermom]

I have never seen a black white guy before!

I have a son that is interacial....though he is 50/50...he is looked at by everyone that does not know him and his parents as he is black.

Just the way it works when you look at someone and their skin color is of different color. Sad really!

it works out for the Native Americans ;)

[Tulsa_Fireman]

And the irish.

[PDXsooner]

i'm for a push to get more whites in the NBA

[Scott D]

WHAT????

You mean have jobs and opportunities and pay and raises and promotions be based on hard work? And intelligence? And talent? And Drive? And commitment? And resolve?

BAH! This is AMERICA DAMMIT! The land of enablement and entitlement!

:mad:

Please, like all jobs and opportunities and pay and raises are based on hard work. Some are based on good old fashioned blackmail and lust.

[OU_Sooners75]

Apparently you haven't read Justice Thomas' writings on the subject. He freely admits to having been a beneficiary of affirmative action in his admission to law school. I've heard it from his own mouth in person.

"But for [affirmative action laws], God only knows where I would be today. These laws and their proper application are all that stand between the first 17 years of my life and the second 17 years."-Clarence Thomas, 1983


And how many people was left out thanks to those laws?

Schools do not need to even ask (on their application) what sex or what ethnicity an applicant is. Then they need to approve or disapprove on merit and qualifications alone!

Had this country done this all along, then affirmative action would not be needed. Like I think it is not needed today.

I think the federal government needs to take those type of things off of anything someone is applying for. Make it where people are judged by their merits and qualifications, not by their skin color or gender.

In my argument, I am not suggesting that people that did benefit from affirmative action did not make the best of it.

Hell, I am glad some of these folks got what they did. However, affirmative action basically states that:

If you have two people with the same qualifications and merits, yet one is white and one is of minority, then the minority should be granted entrance over the white person, if the quota has not yet been met!

That is just a stupid way of running any business or institution!