McNeill leaves Tech

[SoonerBacker]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/football/ncaa/01/14/texas-tech.ap/index.html?xid=si_ncaaf


LUBBOCK, Texas (AP) -- Ruffin McNeill, the interim head coach after Texas Tech suspended and fired Mike Leach last month, is leaving the program.

McNeill came to Texas Tech with Leach in 2000 and was the only other candidate for the head coaching job that was filled by Tommy Tuberville. McNeill had been Texas Tech's defensive coordinator since 2007.

Also not returning are inside receivers coach Lincoln Riley, running backs coach Clay McGuire, cornerbacks coach Brian Mitchell and Eric Russell, who coordinated specials teams.

[TUSooner]

If somebody fired me, I'd leave too!

[Jacie]

Unfortunately for Ruffy, he was Tech's Defensive Coordinator so he can't pass himself off as Leach Lite.

OTOH, he is undefeated as a head coach . . .

[TXBOOMER]

If somebody fired me, I'd leave too!

LOL!:D :D

[SoonerBacker]

I had thought there was a chance that he'd stay on as the Defensive Coordinator. He loved Tech, the players seemed to think a great deal of him....Guess he just didn't fit into Tuberville's plans.

[Leroy Lizard]

Tuberville is a defensive-minded coach. If there is one person on the team he is going to change, it's the defensive coordinator.

[sooneredaco]

"Also not returning are inside receivers coach Lincoln Riley, running backs coach Clay McGuire, cornerbacks coach Brian Mitchell and Eric Russell, who coordinated specials teams."

The above is a bigger deal than Ruffin leaving. TT will forever lose the idenity that they had established with Leach.

[soonerloyal]

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a14/KevAndLori/sinking-ship.jpg

[Leroy Lizard]

The above is a bigger deal than Ruffin leaving. TT will forever lose the idenity that they had established with Leach.

Which is probably what Tuberville wants.

[yermom]

so much for keeping the existing staff...

[sooneredaco]

Which is probably what Tuberville wants.

No doubt it's what the whole administration wants. However, he's been the only positive thing TT football has ever had. Well good for us. We have enough to contend with in the Big 12 South. Tech, hope you enjoyed the success while it lasted.

[Leroy Lizard]

Tuberville worries me more than Leach, actually. He can win. His Auburn team finished undefeated and was within one plane flyover and coaching cry-cry of competing for the national title. Leach never got that far.

I'm not sure what this year brings to Tech, but down the road they could end up being real trouble for us if Tuberville sticks around.

[OKC-SLC]

I actually think our future games with Texas Tech are getting easier by the day.

First to 11 wins.

[Collier11]

Tuberville worries me more than Leach, actually. He can win. His Auburn team finished undefeated and was within one plane flyover and coaching cry-cry of competing for the national title. Leach never got that far.

I'm not sure what this year brings to Tech, but down the road they could end up being real trouble for us if Tuberville sticks around.

Tuberville had 1 really good season while at Auburn, thats it.

[Leroy Lizard]

Besides his undefeated season, he also finished 11-2, which equates to Leach's best season.

If you compare their records, there isn't a lot of difference between them. Tubs took over a team that has had more traditional success, but the team finished with a losing record the previous year. Tech had a winning record in 1999, the season before Leach took over. Tubs' overall winning percentage is slightly better. Bowl records are about the same.

Not a dropoff at all from what I can tell.

[yermom]

he also had 2 NFL RBs and an NFL QB in the backfield, with Chizik running the defense that year

same guy that took over as DC in Austin the next year when they won the MNC

was he lucky, or did he put all that together? would that be easier or harder in Lubbock? are they going to expect more than 3rd in the South most years now that they are paying more for a coach?

[Leroy Lizard]

he also had 2 NFL RBs and an NFL QB in the backfield, with Chizik running the defense that year

same guy that took over as DC in Austin the next year when they won the MNC

But as DC, Tubs' A&M team went undefeated. So he knows defense.

Every coach that wins big has good assistants around him. And good players. Switzer certainly had both, yet we give him his due for what he accomplished.


was he lucky, or did he put all that together? would that be easier or harder in Lubbock? are they going to expect more than 3rd in the South most years now that they are paying more for a coach?

I don't know. They are paying more, but Tubs isn't the big-name coach expected to ride in and deliver national titles and conference titles. He's simply an adequate replacement I think in most fans' eyes.

He's the perfect hire for Tech in terms of his character. If he brings in some good assistants, watch out.

My prediction for his first year? 8-5. It's what happens after that that has me worried.

[Collier11]

In 14 yrs at ole miss and auburn he lost less than 4 games only 3 times, im not worried

[Leroy Lizard]

Ole Miss hadn't been to a bowl game in the three years prior to Tubs' arrival. He took over a pretty lousy Auburn team too.

In ten years at Tech, Leach lost less than 4 games only twice. So on this count the two coaches are comparable as well.

[Collier11]

auburn > Tech by far, thats the diff

[Collier11]

Just to take this a little further


Auburn 687 all time wins
1 natl title
20 bowl wins
10 conf titles
2 heisman winners

TT
505 all time wins
10 bowl wins
11 conf titles
no natl titles
no heisman winners

To go 8-4 pretty much every yr at auburn is not that great, to do it at TT is pretty good

[Leroy Lizard]

Is Ole Miss > Tech?

[Leroy Lizard]

To go 8-4 pretty much every yr at auburn is not that great, to do it at TT is pretty good

If a bowl win in 1965 somehow influenced the ability of a team to perform in 2010, I would agree. Minnesota had some great teams in the past, but I don't think it does them much good.

Auburn is historically better, and that helps. But ultimately you win on the players and coaches you have at the time.

[Collier11]

They claim 3 natl titles and have won 20 bowl games and 614 games all time, id say yea

[Collier11]

Think of it this way, if you had 2 ADs both offering $2mil a yr, id take Auburn or Ole miss over Tt any day of the week

[Leroy Lizard]

So, if Pelini goes undefeated this year like Tubs did at Auburn, then we can discount it by saying that he coached at Nebraska?

Stoops coaches at OU, and OU >>> Auburn. Yet both Stoops and Tuberville have the same number of undefeated teams.

[Leroy Lizard]

Think of it this way, if you had 2 ADs both offering $2mil a yr, id take Auburn or Ole miss over Tt any day of the week

The Ole Miss now, or the Ole Miss back in the late 90s that couldn't get out of its own way?

[Collier11]

We are talking now and all time, sure Auburn went undefeated in 04 but look at their schedule, not to mention Stoops has 1 13 win season, 4 12 win seasons, and 2 11 win seasons, not even comparable

[JLEW1818]

four 12 win seasons is some serious stuff

[OU_Sooners75]

Tuberville worries me more than Leach, actually. He can win. His Auburn team finished undefeated and was within one plane flyover and coaching cry-cry of competing for the national title. Leach never got that far.

I'm not sure what this year brings to Tech, but down the road they could end up being real trouble for us if Tuberville sticks around.


He worries you?

He won a whopping 1 SEC title while at Auburn and Mississippi.

He was made famous thanks to the fact that the only other team he had to contend with (while at Auburn) was LSU. Ole Miss was down, Miss St fell way off, and Bama was on probation for the majority of his Auburn Tenure.

Yeah, Arkansas got going a few years, but they were inconsistent.

[Collier11]

not to mention that Florida wasnt unbeatable for most of his tenure

[OU_Sooners75]

So, if Pelini goes undefeated this year like Tubs did at Auburn, then we can discount it by saying that he coached at Nebraska?

Stoops coaches at OU, and OU >>> Auburn. Yet both Stoops and Tuberville have the same number of undefeated teams.


WOW!


Stoops: 11 years; 117-29-0 (0.80137)
Tuberville: 14 years; 110-60-0 (0.64706)

Tuberville is more in line with Bill Snyder than anyone else.
Snyder: 18 Years; 142-74-1 (0.65668)

[Leroy Lizard]

We are talking now and all time, sure Auburn went undefeated in 04 but look at their schedule, not to mention Stoops has 1 13 win season, 4 12 win seasons, and 2 11 win seasons, not even comparable

You never mentioned Pelini. If Pelini goes undefeated this year, is that impressive? Or did it all come down from Nebraska's past success?

You can take any coach's record and, with enough twisting, make it sound unimpressive. And that's what you're doing. Stoops with his bowl record is an easy target for those that want to unfairly discount his record.

[Collier11]

that record you listed for snyder is 77% winning percentage bro...Leroy is way off base as usual though. Nebraska is a traditional powerhouse, Auburn is a 2nd or 3rd tier traditional program, TT is a 5th or 6th tier traditional program. What leach did at TT is remarkable and far greater than what Tubberville did

[Collier11]

You never mentioned Pelini. If Pelini goes undefeated this year, is that impressive? Or did it all come down from Nebraska's past success?

You can take any coach's record and, with enough twisting, make it sound unimpressive. And that's what you're doing. Stoops with his bowl record is an easy target for those that want to unfairly discount his record.

see above

[Leroy Lizard]

He won a whopping 1 SEC title while at Auburn and Mississippi.

Well, he's taking over for a guy that didn't win any.

[Collier11]

who cares what the coach did before him, Stoops took over for two guys that never won a title...big deal

Its about the resources you have available and what you do with them

[OU_Sooners75]

that record you listed for snyder is 77% winning percentage bro...Leroy is way off base as usual though. Nebraska is a traditional powerhouse, Auburn is a 2nd or 3rd tier traditional program, TT is a 5th or 6th tier traditional program. What leach did at TT is remarkable and far greater than what Tubberville did


I corrected it. His record is 142-74-1

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=2190

[Collier11]

the record you listed 142-42

[Leroy Lizard]

that record you listed for snyder is 77% winning percentage bro...Leroy is way off base as usual though. Nebraska is a traditional powerhouse, Auburn is a 2nd or 3rd tier traditional program,

Okay, so we can establish that if Pelini finishes undefeated this year, it would not be that particularly impressive because Nebraska should win big based on its tradition. Do I have this right?


WOW!

You need to follow the thread more closely. I am not saying that Tuberville is a better coach than Stoops. Quite the contrary.

[Collier11]

Okay, so we can establish that if Pelini finishes undefeated this year, it would not be that particularly impressive because Nebraska should win big based on its tradition. Do I have this right?


Not at all, what I am saying is that Tubberville did less with more than Leach did.

[OU_Sooners75]

You never mentioned Pelini. If Pelini goes undefeated this year, is that impressive? Or did it all come down from Nebraska's past success?

You can take any coach's record and, with enough twisting, make it sound unimpressive. And that's what you're doing. Stoops with his bowl record is an easy target for those that want to unfairly discount his record.


WTF are you talking about?

I gave Tuberville's overall coaching record.

If you compared him to any coach currently in the Big 12, it would fall more in line with Bill Snyder.

And to answer your question, If Pelini goes undefeated, that is impressive. It would be impressive for any coach or any team, since it is a rarity for teams.

yes there may be teams every year undefeated (Boise State) but when in conferences like the SEC or Big 12 it is tough to finish undefeated.

[Leroy Lizard]

who cares what the coach did before him, Stoops took over for two guys that never won a title...big deal

But according to your logic it all comes down to traditional success. OU has had far more of it than Auburn, so that would make it easier for Stoops to win.

If you want to discount Tuberville's accomplishments because he took the reins of a team that has had historical success, you might want to make sure the same argument doesn't apply to your own favorite coach.

[OU_Sooners75]

Okay, so we can establish that if Pelini finishes undefeated this year, it would not be that particularly impressive because Nebraska should win big based on its tradition. Do I have this right?



You need to follow the thread more closely. I am not saying that Tuberville is a better coach than Stoops. Quite the contrary.


I followed it quite fine.

Maybe what you should do is find a coach you can actually compare him too. No one in the Big 12 can actually compare to Bob Stoops!

You are the one that said you are horrified or worried about Tuberville being at Taco Tech.

[Collier11]

Not at all, what I am saying is that Tubberville did less with more than Leach did.


Read this ^


But according to your logic it all comes down to traditional success. OU has had far more of it than Auburn, so that would make it easier for Stoops to win.

If you want to discount Tuberville's accomplishments because he took the reins of a team that has had historical success, you might want to make sure the same argument doesn't apply to your own favorite coach.

If you go to a school that has more resources and tradition such as an OU, tex, usc, they have a benefit over a auburn, tenn, florida state, if you go to a tenn, florida state, auburn, you have more resources and tradition to work with than a TT, Boise, etc...make sense now?

Him going undefeated in 04 was big time but he also played a sh*t schedule and the SEC was down that yr. Him going 8-4 on avg is less impressive than Leach going 8-4 and 9-3 in most seasons

[Leroy Lizard]

WTF are you talking about?

I gave Tuberville's overall coaching record.

If you compared him to any coach currently in the Big 12, it would fall more in line with Bill Snyder.

You're not following the argument.


And to answer your question, If Pelini goes undefeated, that is impressive. It would be impressive for any coach or any team, since it is a rarity for teams.

Then I will let you argue with Collier.

Collier, meet OU_Sooners75. OU_Sooners75, meet Collier. No hitting below the belt. And when the bell rings I will expect you to take to your corners. Now let's get it on!

[OU_Sooners75]

But according to your logic it all comes down to traditional success. OU has had far more of it than Auburn, so that would make it easier for Stoops to win.

If you want to discount Tuberville's accomplishments because he took the reins of a team that has had historical success, you might want to make sure the same argument doesn't apply to your own favorite coach.


Okay, and I ask you this...

What exactly has Tubberville accomplished as a Head Coach?

1 conference title, and that came in 2004 with his only undefeated team.

He may win, but it is not any better than what Leach did at Tech or what Briles is doing at Baylor, or what Snyder has done at Kansas State. Hell, you can even go as far as to say he has not done anything more than what Mangino did!

What is your point? I think Tuberville is a fine coach. However, he benefitted while teams were down. Like I mentioned before. He won a lot at Auburn thanks for Bama being on probation, Ole Miss being down, Miss State falling way off, and Arkansas being very inconsistent.

When Bama started making their push back to the top, it did not take long at all for Auburn to lose. Nor for Tuberville to be fired or forced out!

[Collier11]

Just like LAS, err, I mean LL, realize the discussion isnt going your way so you create a diversion... it really isnt that important that you have to run away LL, just casual discussion

[Leroy Lizard]

Maybe what you should do is find a coach you can actually compare him too. No one in the Big 12 can actually compare to Bob Stoops!

I agree.

The fact that you think I would disagree tells me that you are not following the thread. I am using the fact that Stoops is the best coach in the conference to discount Collier's argument that Tuberville's success can be explained away because he coached at a traditional football powerhouse.


You are the one that said you are horrified or worried about Tuberville being at Taco Tech.

There was no horrified or worried. It was only one of the two.

[OU_Sooners75]

You're not following the argument.



Then I will let you argue with Collier.

Collier, meet OU_Sooners75. OU_Sooners75, meet Collier. No hitting below the belt. And when the bell rings I will expect you to take to your corners. Now let's get it on!


Nice to meet you Collier... :pop:

[Collier11]

you too bro, :eek:

[Collier11]

I agree.

The fact that you think I would disagree tells me that you are not following the thread. I am using the fact that Stoops is the best coach in the conference to discount Collier's argument that Tuberville's success can be explained away because he coached at a traditional football powerhouse.



There was no horrified or worried. It was only one of the two.

you are conveniently ignoring my posts now though?

[OU_Sooners75]

I agree.

The fact that you think I would disagree tells me that you are not following the thread. I am using the fact that Stoops is the best coach in the conference to discount Collier's argument that Tuberville's success can be explained away because he coached at a traditional football powerhouse.



There was no horrified or worried. It was only one of the two.


And he is correct on that to a certain point.

Auburn ranks 16th overall when it comes to all-time winning percentage.

The only teams ahead of them are: Michigan, Notre Dame, Texas, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Alabama, USC, Nebraska, Tennessee, Penn State, Georgia, Florida State, LSU, Miami, and Florida.

[Leroy Lizard]

Not at all, what I am saying is that Tubberville did less with more than Leach did.

How did he do LESS?

And the teams that he took over were probably worse than the team Leach took over.

I just don't see any real dropoff with Tuberville coming in. Leach and Tuberville probably have comparable coaching records. And with his defensive prowess, I can see him making a lot of trouble for opposing teams.

[Leroy Lizard]

you are conveniently ignoring my posts now though?

What posts are you talking about?

If you have a question for me, I'll answer it.

[OU_Sooners75]

How did he do LESS?

And the teams that he took over were probably worse than the team Leach took over.

I just don't see any real dropoff with Tuberville coming in. Leach and Tuberville probably have comparable coaching records. And with his defensive prowess, I can see him making a lot of trouble for opposing teams.

He is not saying there will be a drop off.

However, you are the one that stated you were worried about Tuberville being at Tech. And that is what he was most likely responding to.

And Auburn was able to grab a lot of good recruits. Yes, tech gets some. But with Bama being on probation and Shula coaching there, Tuberville had the pick of the litter from Alabama.

Leach did not, nor will Tuberville, while at Texas Tech.

Tech as to contend with Texas and Oklahoma pulling the better recruits from the Texas populace. Then they also have to contend with A&M and now Okie State.

They are within the 3rd-5th choice for local schools for the majority of the top notch players coming out of their home state.

Auburn is in the top 2 from Alabama kids. Hence the reason Tuberville did less with more.

[Leroy Lizard]

And he is correct on that to a certain point.

Auburn ranks 16th overall when it comes to all-time winning percentage.

But you just got done saying that if Pelini (who coaches at NEBRASKA) went undefeated, it would be very impressive. In fact, you said the following:


And to answer your question, If Pelini goes undefeated, that is impressive. It would be impressive for any coach or any team, since it is a rarity for teams.

So Tuberville finishes undefeated and... no! He coaches at Auburn, and since Auburn is a traditional powerhouse, then the undefeated season doesn't mean much.

You and Collier need to straighten out your arguments.

[Collier11]

How did he do LESS?

And the teams that he took over were probably worse than the team Leach took over.

I just don't see any real dropoff with Tuberville coming in. Leach and Tuberville probably have comparable coaching records. And with his defensive prowess, I can see him making a lot of trouble for opposing teams.

How did he do less? Auburn was 47-17 from 93-98, even better before that
Tech was 49-35 between 93 and 99, worse before that

[Collier11]

so as you see, Auburn was traditionally better before Tubberville and was most recently better before Tubberville

[Leroy Lizard]

How did he do less? Auburn was 47-17 from 93-98, even better before that
Tech was 49-35 between 93 and 99, worse before that

You don't understand the phrase "Doing less with more." The stats you posted refer to the "with more" part, not the "doing less" part.

[OU_Sooners75]

But you just got done saying that if Pelini (who coaches at NEBRASKA) went undefeated, it would be very impressive. In fact, you said the following:



So Tuberville finishes undefeated and... no! He coaches at Auburn, and since Auburn is a traditional powerhouse, then the undefeated season doesn't mean much.

You and Collier need to straighten out your arguments.

You seriously cannot be this stupid, can you? Seriously?

Let me put this in perspective for you, since you seem to be stupid on the matter.

Oklahoma leads the NCAA in undefeated seasons at 14. This is for seasons of 8+ games played in a season. If you count the years where OU was 1-0 or 2-0, it is more than that.

That is 14 seasons out of 115 years of football history, or just 12.174% of the seasons, where OU went undefeated.

Saying that, it is impressive, when any team can go undefeated. Especially if you play in one of the Major 6 conferences.

So yes, if Pelini were to go undefeated this year, it would be impressive.

Nowhere have I stated that Tuberville's only undefeated season was not impressive, so stop putting words in my posts that do not exist.

However, you would rather try to make yourself look smarter than what you are by copying and pasting bits and pieces of two different posts.

Stop being the village idiot once in awhile and try to grasp that two people are trying to have a civil conversation with you.

[Collier11]

Leroy, you are arguing just for the sake of arguing...lets try this one more time

Since 1981 Auburn was 148 and 59, a 71% winning percentage

Tuberville came in, had 2 losing seasons and a 68% winning percentage while the SEC was mostly down

TT before Leach and since 81 was 105-109, since Leach they were 84-43...do you get it now

Leroy, read this for your answer ^ Auburn always has been a better job and that is why Tubberville did less with more

[OU_Sooners75]

You don't understand the phrase "Doing less with more." The stats you posted refer to the "with more" part, not the "doing less" part.


No, you do not understand it.

Having 8-4 seasons on a consistent basis, while raking in top 10 recruiting classes, is doing LESS with MORE; When compared to going 8-4 on a consistent basis, while recruiting less talented players (or outside the top 10) on a consistent basis is doing MORE with LESS.

I give up. This tool is just flat out too stupid for a civil conversation.

[Collier11]

well if he doesnt get the point after my last post then it is obvious he is just trying to be disagreeable

[OU_Sooners75]

well if he doesnt get the point after my last post then it is obvious he is just trying to be disagreeable


Same goes with my post.

The guy is a tool. This is what happens when one tries hard to have a civil conversation with a tool.

Just does not happen.

[Collier11]

I just need to go to bed T, this is pointless

[OU_Sooners75]

I should go as well. However, not tired...and I have to be at work in 7 hours. Yet, just got off work not too long ago.


What to do...LOL

[Collier11]

im trying to hold out to see if LL finally gets my/our points but im not confident, I dont have to work tom but I was planning on going to the gym at 12, not sure now, lol

Hell, he logged off so I guess im hitting the sack, he couldnt take all the fun I guess, :D catch ya later T

[MrJimBeam]

He won a whopping 1 SEC title while at Auburn and Mississippi.



Ole Miss hasn't won an SEC title since Ross Barnett was governor.



:cool:

[RedstickSooner]

Leach managed to run a great program while his in-state primary rival (Tejas) was booming from a recruiting standpoint. Tuberville did great at Auburn during a time when his in-state rival was moribund and adrift.

I would take Leach over Tommy any day. This is not a lateral move for the program. It's a step down.

[OU_Sooners75]

Ole Miss hasn't won an SEC title since Ross Barnett was governor.



:cool:


Yeah, well, in his 14 years as a head coach (Auburn and Miss) he has one just one conference title and nothing else.

[Jello Biafra]

real simple guys and leroy lizard milker....

Auburn is the second best team in bama (right now) and that area of the country is a hotbed for high school talent right? you either get recruited for bama or auburn... you wouldn't likey go anywhere else (miss. lsu, floriduh, FSU) so you have a choice of the two....so if you'd like, auburn will be oklahoma, bama will be texas...most of the kids in this region look at texas first and oklahoma second. (not really but you see what im saying)


tech is NOT a big XII power. you know it, i know it, the whole damn board knows it. Tech gets whats left over from the recruiting scramble from texas, OU, A&M and (lately) OSU now throw in the success of nebish you have a recruiting base that is at best 4th in the big XII. and THAT was with leech at the helm. where they know he will put them in the nfl as an offensive player.

tubbs has a long row to hoe and i don't see them doing anything close to fighting for the BIG XII south for about 3 years.

[VA Sooner]

Changing of the guards... most likely something that Texas Tech administration and Tuberville arranged prior to hiring. Gets rid of all previous Leach controversy over who said what and who did what.

But I have to hand it to Lincoln Riley, OC... he put out a statement about making sure that the school and the student body supports the team because of the kids playing for the Red Raiders now... they would be the ones most let down if the Red Raider community didn't move on.

Very classy, Riley. Hope you get a great gig somewhere.

[Jello Biafra]

Changing of the guards... most likely something that Texas Tech administration and Tuberville arranged prior to hiring. Gets rid of all previous Leach controversy over who said what and who did what.

But I have to hand it to Lincoln Riley, OC... he put out a statement about making sure that the school and the student body supports the team because of the kids playing for the Red Raiders now... they would be the ones most let down if the Red Raider community didn't move on.

Very classy, Riley. Hope you get a great gig somewhere.


presonally, i hope the school gets sucked up into a giant worm hole. they hired the general (and allowed him to lead them around by the nose), and they screwed leech after he showed them arseloads of loyalty. if you think he hasnt been receiving a bunch of job offers since after his first year there, you're crazy.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

"Also not returning are inside receivers coach Lincoln Riley, running backs coach Clay McGuire, cornerbacks coach Brian Mitchell and Eric Russell, who coordinated specials teams."

The above is a bigger deal than Ruffin leaving. TT will forever lose the idenity that they had established with Leach.

Tuberville has no intentions of continuing Leach-ball, despite what the AD said in the hiring memo. I think TT will be about as good as Aubie was in the late years, lots of noise, not really elite. Lubbock will be restless in my opinion and I think the AD and Tubs gone in a few years...

[Leroy Lizard]

Saying that, it is impressive, when any team can go undefeated. Especially if you play in one of the Major 6 conferences.

So yes, if Pelini were to go undefeated this year, it would be impressive.

Nowhere have I stated that Tuberville's only undefeated season was not impressive, so stop putting words in my posts that do not exist.

But nowhere do you say that it WAS impressive.

Are you impressed by Auburn's undefeated season? Don't imply it; come out and say it.

[Jello Biafra]

But nowhere do you say that it WAS impressive.

Are you impressed by Auburn's undefeated season? Don't imply it; come out and say it.

im not really impressed. not that you asked me but...the recruiting grounds they have, and the fact that almost all of the teams in the sec were meh that year.plus, terry bowden did it too...really? terry bowden?

[Collier11]

Leroy, you are arguing just for the sake of arguing...lets try this one more time

Since 1981 Auburn was 148 and 59, a 71% winning percentage

Tuberville came in, had 2 losing seasons and a 68% winning percentage while the SEC was mostly down

TT before Leach and since 81 was 105-109, since Leach they were 84-43...do you get it now


Leroy, read this for your answer ^ Auburn always has been a better job and that is why Tubberville did less with more

[Leroy Lizard]

Leroy, read this for your answer ^ Auburn always has been a better job and that is why Tubberville did less with more

What does this have to do with my question to OU_Sooners75?

[Leroy Lizard]

presonally, i hope the school gets sucked up into a giant worm hole. they hired the general (and allowed him to lead them around by the nose), and they screwed leech after he showed them arseloads of loyalty.

I think one of Tech's biggest complaints about Leach was that he wasn't loyal and was constantly job shopping.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I think one of Tech's biggest complaints about Leach was that he wasn't loyal and was constantly job shopping.

Well after recent events, Do you blame Leach? You work for a bunch of Yahoos, they are scheming behind your back, and you live in Lubbock. I would be job shopping as well.

[yermom]

they also weren't paying him for crap, before that last contract, if i remember right

[Leroy Lizard]

Well after recent events, Do you blame Leach? You work for a bunch of Yahoos, they are scheming behind your back, and you live in Lubbock. I would be job shopping as well.

I'm not sure which came first. Was Leach job shopping because the Tech administrators are a bunch of weasels, or were the Tech administrators wanting to push Leach out because they looked at him as a mercenary who would sell them out if the opportunity arose?

I don't know.

[Collier11]

What does this have to do with my question to OU_Sooners75?

Short memory I suppose...lastnite you were arguing with me when I said that Tuberville had done less with more, well that was your proof...if you dont remember go back and read our convo lastnite before you logged off

[Collier11]

way to avoid the topic when you are proven wrong, shoulda expected it I suppose

[Leroy Lizard]

way to avoid the topic when you are proven wrong, shoulda expected it I suppose

You haven't proven squat. As I said before, any coach's record can be twisted around to make him look like a loser.

Don't believe me? Go into any Horn forum and watch them dismantle Stoops by pointing out his bowl record. Do I think they're off base? Yeah. Do I think you're off base? To a large extent, yeah.

For example, bowl games typically match your team with another that is somewhat comparable, and Tuberville's record is 6-3. This is better than Leach's (although not by much). But what's the point of pointing this out, because all of a sudden every bowl win of Tuberville's will be explained away. Either the other team was overrated or the other team was unmotivated. And every bowl win of Leach's will be glorified.

There isn't a coach around whose record I can't mangle using your logic. Mack? How many conference titles? Stoops? Can't win BCS bowl games. Switzer? Coached in a weak Big-8 conference (and Horn fans will say he only won because he cheated.) The same goes for Leach and Tuberville.

I merely pointed out that Tuberville's coaching record is comparable to Leach's, and if he managed to put together a solid defense Tech could be formidable. As a Sooner fan, that worries me. But then the ****'in Mike Leach Fan Club took offense, because in their world only opinions that raise Mike's reputation to exalted status are worthy.

To you, Tuberville MUST fail, because if he succeeds at all that would diminish Mike's greatness. So even a hint that Tuberville might not be such a bad coach must be struck down at all costs.

And there's another side to it. Tuberville MUST fail, because if he succeeds then the Tech administration gets off the hook. And THAT is probably the biggest reason for the anti-Tuberville sentiment. Deny it if you like, but you know it's true.

I swear some of you worry about Leach's legal battles with the Tech administration more than he does -- and he isn't even our coach! Why the **** do you care if Leach wins in court? It isn't your money. He doesn't give a rat's *** about your legal problems, but you lose sleep over his? Screw that.

The love affair for Mike Leach has become sickening. If I ever got to meet Mike, I'm sure I would like him. I certainly think he's a good coach. But some of you spend too much time looking at his picture plastered over your bed. And you're one of the worst at it.

[Collier11]

Nice try, you are still wrong...you keep forgetting that this is all in response to you initially saying that Tubs worries you.

All I did was PROVE to you that he didnt even do as much at Auburn with more resources than Leach did at Tech with less resources. Does that guarantee that he will fail at TT, no. Do I want him to fail, I dont care as long as we beat them. I just think he isnt as good of a coach as you are making him out to be.

I dont know where you are getting my "love affair" with Leach from, this has nothing to do with Leach, only that your fear of Tubs is unfounded. Nothing more, nothing less. So try again

BTW, im pretty disappointed in you, that was a weak azz attempt to come back at me, making it like this is about me or anyone else loving Leach, that is weak Leroy. And it took you all day to come up with that, geez

[delhalew]

Maybe it has something to do with a trend in college football involving administrations conducting witch hunts to get out of contracts for political reasons.

Oh...wait. I forgot who I was talking to, never mind.

[Leroy Lizard]

Nice try, you are still wrong...you keep forgetting that this is all in response to you initially saying that Tubs worries you.

So what???

Someone comes in and says that he's worried that the new coach of a rival team could cause some problems. BFD.

But he's replacing LEACH, the hero of SoonerFans. And that's the difference.


All I did was PROVE to you that he didnt even do as much at Auburn with more resources than Leach did at Tech with less resources.

You didn't prove anything. In fact, proving anything in football is just about impossible because there are too many variables (except those that are conveniently ignored).

Tuberville's bowl record is better than Leach's. Is that PROOF that Tuberville is a better coach? Of course not.

But if Leach's bowl record was better, you would change your tune in a heartbeat.


Does that guarantee that he will fail at TT, no. Do I want him to fail, I dont care as long as we beat them.

Baloney. You want him to fail because you have this weirdness about the Tech fiasco.


I dont know where you are getting my "love affair" with Leach from...

Gee, I can't imagine where I would have got that notion.

You're not even being honest now.

[Collier11]

So what???


Someone comes in and says that he's worried that the new coach of a rival team could cause some problems. BFD.

You said he worried you, I gave you reasons why I thought Leach was a better coach and had done more with less than tubs, that is all. You are making it more than it is, all I did was ask you to reply to me. Hell, I stayed up til 3 in the morning debating it with you lastnite, I figured a reply was merited

But he's replacing LEACH, the hero of SoonerFans. And that's the difference.

Has nothing to do with anything ive brought up, quit making it like I have said any of those things

You didn't prove anything. In fact, proving anything in football is just about impossible because there are too many variables (except those that are conveniently ignored).

I proved my point whether you want to admit it or not

Tuberville's bowl record is better than Leach's. Is that PROOF that Tuberville is a better coach? Of course not.

Tuberville is 6-3, Leach is 5-4. We also know that bowl games are hard to judge cus often times the other team doesnt care or would rather be somewhere else

Look at Auburns record prior to Tubs and how he did following compared to leach and TT, that proves that Leach did more with less. You cant dispute that and if you do you arent being honest



Baloney. You want him to fail because you have this weirdness about the Tech fiasco.

I could care less if Tuberville fails or not, why do you feel the need to put words in my mouth. I respect Tuberville, he is a good guy by all accounts and a good coach, I never disputed any of that

Gee, I can't imagine where I would have got that notion.

You're not even being honest now.

Im being honest, you just cant handle it cus you have been proven wrong. Its really not that big of a deal, you dont have to freak out

[Leroy Lizard]

You said he worried you, I gave you reasons why I thought Leach was a better coach and had done more with less than tubs, that is all. You are making it more than it is, all I did was ask you to reply to me.

What is your question to me? I asked you before, and you never responded.


I proved my point whether you want to admit it or not

Here's a tip: You don't prove anything by simply stating that you did. They call this fallacy "Truth by blatant assertion."

All you did was scour the Web looking for facts that supported your argument, and conveniently ignoring those that didn't. That is not a proof.

Using your methods, a Horn fan can prove that Mack is better than Stoops. And a Sooner fan can prove that Stoops is better than Mack. The whole concept of proof breaks down when both sides to an argument can prove their argument.

Go into any online argument about sports and you will see similar "proofs" as your own. Unfortunately, both sides of the argument are "proving" their point.


Tuberville is 6-3, Leach is 5-4. We also know that bowl games are hard to judge cus often times the other team doesnt care or would rather be somewhere else

Oh, of course!!

Except if Leach was 6-3 and Tuberville was 5-4, the argument would change. Their bowl records would be offered up as "proof" that Leach was a better coach.

But Tuberville is 6-3, not Leach. So those bowl games don't mean much. The other team probably didn't try hard. Yeah, that's it! The other team must have just laid down. Because when there is data to be dismissed, any excuse will do.


Look at Auburns record prior to Tubs and how he did following compared to leach and TT, that proves that Leach did more with less. You cant dispute that and if you do you arent being honest

How did Auburn do the year before Tubs arrived? How did Tech do the year before Leach arrived?

Whoops! But wait! We can fix that problem by backtracking the years until Auburn's record is better than Tech's. It might be two years prior; it might be ten years prior.

It's data manipulation. My colleagues in the liberal arts are masters at it. There isn't anything they can't "prove" if they twist the data enough. And I see you doing the same thing.

[Collier11]

What is your question to me? I asked you before, and you never responded.

you are replying to it now, pay attention

Here's a tip: You don't prove anything by simply stating that you did. They call this fallacy "Truth by blatant assertion."

All you did was scour the Web looking for facts that supported your argument, and conveniently ignoring those that didn't. That is not a proof.

Using your methods, a Horn fan can prove that Mack is better than Stoops. And a Sooner fan can prove that Stoops is better than Mack. The whole concept of proof breaks down when both sides to an argument can prove their argument.

Again you arent listening, I never said Leach was an out and out better coach. All I said is that Leach did more with less than Tuberville did, that can be proven and it was. Facts dont lie


Oh, of course!!

Except if Leach was 6-3 and Tuberville was 5-4, the argument would change. Their bowl records would be offered up as "proof" that Leach was a better coach.

But Tuberville is 6-3, not Leach. So those bowl games don't mean much. The other team probably didn't try hard. Yeah, that's it! The other team must have just laid down. Because when there is data to be dismissed, any excuse will do.

I never said that bowl games dont matter, I only pointed out that there is a 1 game diff between them, it isnt substantial enough to tell anything from it. I never said the teams that Tuberville faced laid down while the ones that leach faced didnt either, all I said is that bowl games are hard to judge due to the unknown motivations of each team. Unless you are competing for championships which neither coach did more than 1 season, the best info to go off of is how there teams did and how good was the program before they got there. In reality, Tuberville made Auburn worse than before he was there minus 1 season, Leach made TT far and away better, that is easy to see and the only point I am making.


How did Auburn do the year before Tubs arrived? How did Tech do the year before Leach arrived?

Whoops! But wait! We can fix that problem by backtracking the years until Auburn's record is better than Tech's. It might be two years prior; it might be ten years prior.

It's data manipulation. My colleagues in the liberal arts are masters at it. There isn't anything they can't "prove" if they twist the data enough. And I see you doing the same thing.

Its not date manipulation, it is blatant facts. I actually only went back to 81 because it gave TT a better chance at evening out the numbers but ill play your game. Lets do the 5 years prior to each coachs arrival, that is fair.

The five yrs before Leach or one whole class of athletes, TT was 35-23

The four yrs before Tubs, Auburn was 37-17...still advantage Auburn

[Leroy Lizard]

Again you arent listening, I never said Leach was an out and out better coach. All I said is that Leach did more with less than Tuberville did, that can be proven and it was. Facts dont lie

Correction: The facts you conveniently ignore don't lie either.


I never said that bowl games dont matter, I only pointed out that there is a 1 game diff between them, it isnt substantial enough to tell anything from it. I never said the teams that Tuberville faced laid down while the ones that leach faced didnt either, all I said is that bowl games are hard to judge due to the unknown motivations of each team.

These unknown motivations can play a role on any given Saturday, not just bowl games. The other team is 4-7 and is out of bowl contention, so maybe they don't play as hard. UT fans are fond of reminding everyone that A&M plays them unusually tough, so any loss to the Aggies is explained away.

So what does an 8-4 record really mean if it could just as easily been 9-3, or 7-5?

OU lost five games this year. Were they really that bad?

This is why you shouldn't throw the word "proof" around. You can't prove anything in football. All you can do is chose those stats that agree with you, ignore those that don't, and throw them out in hopes of sounding convincing. That is hardly a proof.


Unless you are competing for championships which neither coach did more than 1 season, the best info to go off of is how there teams did and how good was the program before they got there. In reality, Tuberville made Auburn worse than before he was there minus 1 season, Leach made TT far and away better, that is easy to see and the only point I am making.

It just so happens that the one season you dismiss was the year prior to Tuberville taking over. Of all seasons that weigh into how well a team does in any given year, the one prior has the most relevance.

[Leroy Lizard]

Its not date manipulation, it is blatant facts.

It's the facts that you specifically cherry-picked because they supported your argument. That is data manipulation.


I actually only went back to 81 because it gave TT a better chance at evening out the numbers but ill play your game. Lets do the 5 years prior to each coachs arrival, that is fair.

Truth by blatant assertion. It's fair simply because you say it is.



The five yrs before Leach or one whole class of athletes, TT was 35-23

The four yrs before Tubs, Auburn was 37-17...still advantage Auburn

Why are going back four years with Auburn but five with Tech?

Go back three years to each coach's arrival and the two teams have nearly identical records. How can that be if Auburn is so much greater than Tech?

But going back only three years doesn't do much for your argument. So we backtrack four years instead.

[olevetonahill]

In the Infamous words of " Openacan "
LL, does it hurt to be so stupid ?

[Leroy Lizard]

Since we're playing "Ask A Loaded Question," why are you such an idiot?

[Collier11]

Correction: The facts you conveniently ignore don't lie either.



These unknown motivations can play a role on any given Saturday, not just bowl games. The other team is 4-7 and is out of bowl contention, so maybe they don't play as hard. UT fans are fond of reminding everyone that A&M plays them unusually tough, so any loss to the Aggies is explained away.

So what does an 8-4 record really mean if it could just as easily been 9-3, or 7-5?

OU lost five games this year. Were they really that bad?

This is why you shouldn't throw the word "proof" around. You can't prove anything in football. All you can do is chose those stats that agree with you, ignore those that don't, and throw them out in hopes of sounding convincing. That is hardly a proof.



It just so happens that the one season you dismiss was the year prior to Tuberville taking over. Of all seasons that weigh into how well a team does in any given year, the one prior has the most relevance.

The word proof can be used when you look at the entirety of a career, dont be so dense