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the_ouskull
1/1/2010, 03:19 PM
Controversy.

1) I'm starting to feel that Keith Gallon = Zach Randolph, pre 2009. Discuss.

And, if you don't know who Zach Randolph is, then it's okay. Let those of us who DO watch basketball played at its highest level explain him. Feel free to ask.

Cliffs Notes: Really, really offensively gifted power forward who is almost a guaranteed 20/10 guy every season, and shoots a high percentage as well... but is the ultimate loser. He's played for I've lost count of how many teams, in large part because he's all about his numbers, and REFUSES to play defense.

2) How many of you are starting to get nervous that an "I told you so" thread is coming from me in about four or five years...?

If you figure out what I (actually) mean by that, then sweet, you're an old-timer, and I may actually give a sh*t about what you have to say. Please, let's discuss this. I desperately wanted then to be wrong, but I didn't think that I was. Now I'm starting to really think I wasn't.

And, if that doesn't make sense to you, that's cool too. I've got the even MORE Cliffs Notes'ed version of this entire thread, ribbed for your pleasure:

-----

1) I think that we're a better team without Gallon.

2) I'm starting to think that in four or five years, I'll be dropping quite the "I told you so" on this board, in regards to the difference(s) between Kelvin and Capel. I really, really hope I'm wrong, but you have got to admit that, without Blake in the fold, he lost control of this team QUICK.

Try to limit your replys to the discussion at hand... Capel. This isn't about Kelvin... yet... This is about Capel and his seeming inability to coach or control this current group of players. Thanks. Mgmt.

Once again, discuss...

the_ouskull

the_ouskull
1/1/2010, 03:44 PM
One more log...

Willie Warren IS a statistical leader... and he's #12, too, wow.

http://msn.foxsports.com/cbk/sortableStats?div=99&table=assists&stat=toAvg&dir=descending

Stop trying to make the big play Willie, and just make the smart one.

the_ouskull

Eielson
1/1/2010, 03:54 PM
1) I think that we're a better team without Gallon.

I understand the Randolph comparison, and have thought similar things. Unfortunately, we don't really have anywhere to turn. If we're going to do anything this year (and from the looks of our recruiting, next year) we're going to have to have Gallon produce for us. You've said it many times yourself, Crocker isn't the answer down low, and neither is Wright if we want to win many meaningful games. You like Fitzgerald, and I like him to. That's just one big man, though, and he's not exactly a superstar regardless. So basically, without Gallon, we're essentially guaranteed to have the WORST big men in the entire conference. Our guards are average at best, so that's a recipe for disaster. We HAVE to have Gallon playing well if we want to do something this year, and seeing as we haven't signed a single big man for next year, we need him for next year.

I've also thought at times that we might be better without Willie, but if we didn't have Willie or Gallon, what would we have?

Also, is our big man recruiting as bad as it looks? It looks like we have a shot with Terrence Jones, but if that falls through we basically have the same people as this year minus Wright? Please say there are some good JUCOs.

Eielson
1/1/2010, 03:55 PM
Oh, and we miss Patillo more than we thought.

Collier11
1/1/2010, 04:02 PM
I think the diff is that Gallon is a good dude while Randolph has always been a punk

Sooner4FCD
1/1/2010, 04:26 PM
Comparing a freshman who just finished his first semester in college to a 28 year old is assenine.

the_ouskull
1/1/2010, 05:21 PM
Ignoring your spelling, I'm going to ask, since you only threw out an opinion without an explanation, why you feel the way that you do? Why is it an asinine comparison to make?

I am obviously already comparing college to pro basketball, so the age comparison - the one with which you seem to have the problem - is moot. What else was there, I mean, aside from the fact that they play very, very similar games, albeit on their respective levels; college and pro, that you disagreed with - aside from apparently needing a disclaimer where, for most posters, I would not have had to include one.

the_ouskull

Eielson
1/1/2010, 05:53 PM
When asked why he lost so much weight in his Senior year, Keith Gallon responded with something along the lines of "I didn't want to have to work hard when I got to college." I hoped he had misworded that, but have wondered about him ever since. I'm thinking he may not have misworded that.

the_ouskull
1/1/2010, 06:38 PM
I'm starting to worry that he's just good enough to be just dumb enough to get into trouble. Also, that he thinks he's (still) going to be able to get by on nothing but his size and his current skill level. If he thinks he's a one-and-done guy, I've got some bad news for him...

...he might be, but it won't have anything to do with his going pro; at least not in the NBA. He's not ready. He's too... Randolphian.

the_ouskull

Eielson
1/1/2010, 06:50 PM
He's too... Randolphian.

the_ouskull

A poor man's Randolph. Randolph IS in the NBA, and making millions.

WildBlueSooner
1/1/2010, 08:25 PM
I am completely dumbfounded by this thread. This is a young basketball team, with a ton of talent. This team lost its leaders, and is relying on a sophomore to lead them, one who has not played college ball without one Blake Griffin on his team. I do agree that it seems Capel has lost control of this team to a degree, but in this case I do not think perception is reality. I still have faith in Capel and in this ball team. Do I think they are going to end up a top Big 12 team this year...no. Do I think they will in the next few years, a huge yes!

Capel will continue to grow as a Coach and his players will grow into a team...something they are struggling to be without the Griffin brothers.

As for the Sampson and Capel arguments. I was not blessed enough I guess to know what your awesome predictions are, but I believe Capel will take this program where it needs to be. The difference between the two is that Sampson had reached his potential, where Capel still has plenty of room to get better as a Coach, something I love about having him.
As far as Gallon is concerned. He is a player who absolutely dominated everyone he played in highschool. He is a big kid who can play like a guard and he has yet to figure out how he fits in at this level. He is not too lazy to play defense, he just isn't sure where to be and when. I believe that w/ more work Tiny will be a big time player, one who learns how to win and win big! There is no way I would ever even considering comparing Gallon, who has played a handful of college games to Randolph, makes no sense to me.

And as for I told you so threads, if everyone posted one every time they were right, that is all we would have to read. What is that saying? Act like you have been there before. Please forgive any spelling/grammar errors, I hope any will not take away from what I mean...I would hate to get a smart *** reply for misspelling something.

soonervegas
1/1/2010, 08:28 PM
My opinion is too early to tell at game 13. I think we have too much youth and not enough interior depth. I think some of the youngsters are being thrown to the div 1 fire and were not ready.

WildBlueSooner
1/1/2010, 08:32 PM
When asked why he lost so much weight in his Senior year, Keith Gallon responded with something along the lines of "I didn't want to have to work hard when I got to college." I hoped he had misworded that, but have wondered about him ever since. I'm thinking he may not have misworded that.

I cannot speak for him but I think he meant he wouldnt have to work hard in college on losing weight, leaving him more time to work on other aspects of his game. I hope that is what he meant.

soonerbub
1/2/2010, 02:44 AM
I think Randolph is 10 times the talent of Tiny. I don't know that Tiny is chasing numbers as much as he just plays his way like in prep school and the hell with anyone changing him. If we had forfeited after the chocolate thunder incident I wouldn't have cared which really pains me because I love Sooner b-ball as much as anyone on this board.

Now to Capel: He is not a "fear of God" coach like Kelvin or even Coach K. He has lost this team--even if we get hot it will be because the guys choose to play not because of the fear of getting benched or (gasp?) being arm twisted to transfer.

My way would be to get about 4 bad asses from juco in kansas or mississippi for next year that would literally kick some *** to earn playing time. Throwing guys under the bus in media sessions only closes them off--doing it during 2 a days in Oct-Nov is the time for impact and to have a season that isn't lost by New Year's.

Sooner4FCD
1/2/2010, 04:50 AM
Ignoring your spelling, I'm going to ask, since you only threw out an opinion without an explanation, why you feel the way that you do? Why is it an asinine comparison to make?

I am obviously already comparing college to pro basketball, so the age comparison - the one with which you seem to have the problem - is moot. What else was there, I mean, aside from the fact that they play very, very similar games, albeit on their respective levels; college and pro, that you disagreed with - aside from apparently needing a disclaimer where, for most posters, I would not have had to include one.

the_ouskull

My problem is with you saying that Tiny is all about his numbers and refuses to play defense also implying that he doesn't hustle. Tiny leads the team in rebounding and by almost double the next player in offensive rebounding as well as blocks. That shows hustling and defense to me.

In the Utah game there was no one cheering their teammates on more on the bench than Tiny was so I don't believe at all that he's not a team player.

I have a problem with you implying that Tiny has a bad attitude and all about himself when the fact of the matter is that he's a freshman that is faaaaar from a finished product while Randolph has proven time and again to be a malcontent.

I believe that Tiny thought success was going to come a lot quicker than it has and he had a frustrating game....a freshman showing frustration and immaturity, wow that's never happened before, he's definitely a malcontent who's all about his own stats:rolleyes:

Just like football fans got spoiled with Sam Bradford and now expect every freshman to play like he did, OU bball fans have gotten spoiled with BG and think that every freshman should have the maturity that he did. This team is full of talent that just needs time to gel. Rather than putting them on the **** list, let's support this team through Big XII play because while this could be a tough season, I truly think next year and the year after that this is going to be a team that goes deep into the tournament and we'll be marveling at how far these kids have come, they just need to learn the game and gain some maturity.

P.S. Tommy Mason-Griffin is playing out of his mind(assist to turnover ration of over 2:1!) and will be a 4 year player that Big XII fans are going to be wondering when he's going to be leaving in the coming years.

fwsooner22
1/2/2010, 11:20 AM
Can we give this a season guys.........geez

the_ouskull
1/2/2010, 11:54 AM
My problem is with you saying that Tiny is all about his numbers and refuses to play defense also implying that he doesn't hustle. Tiny leads the team in rebounding and by almost double the next player in offensive rebounding as well as blocks. That shows hustling and defense to me.

And my problem with you is that you refuse to see the forest for the trees. Your stats aren't comparing Tiny to other players on other teams, you're comparing him to OUR team, talking about his leading the team in rebounding and blocks. First of all, he's a good four inches taller than the majority of the players he's been on the court with at the same time, playing the five to the 6'5" Crocker's four. SOMEONE has to get the rebounds... And, considering he, a 6'9" McDAA, is only averaging 1.5 more boards per game than Crocker and only .23 more blocks than him as well... well, his "accomplishments" aren't quite as impressive when you list them like that.

He also "leads the team" in total fouls, (40) foul-outs, (2) and has almost twice as many turnovers (23) as assists (12) so far. Ya left THOSE out, didn't you?

The fouls are the result of being either out of position on a play, or too lazy to move his feet and play good defense, choosing instead to run with the "Ole" and swipe method. But I could be wrong. I mean, stats aren't everything, right? I mean, sure, they're YOUR whole argument, but... ah, screw it.

In the Utah game there was no one cheering their teammates on more on the bench than Tiny was so I don't believe at all that he's not a team player.


was constantly pouting when he didn’t receive the ball, and was made his displeasure clear to his teammates vocally.


Gallon struggles to get up and down the floor due to his terrible conditioning, and therefore will at times spend entire possessions back on the defensive end just to conserve any energy he can. He looks a bit lazy out on the floor and plays absolutely no defense as you can probably imagine.


Gallon’s effort really wavered from day to day, often looking very disinterested in the proceedings. He obviously has a very easy-going personality and clearly came to enjoy himself here, which is understandable considering the vacation-like atmosphere, but you would have liked to see him be a little more serious at times. He complained a lot, demonstrated terrible shot-selection, dribbled the ball excessively and forced a lot of very difficult, contested fade-away jumpers, which really took away from his main strengths.

These are all quotes from NBA draft sites. I don't know how YOU feel about his effort, but that's how the people that get PAID to evaluate players feel. Also, Google "Tiny Gallon defense" sometime and just read the first page. Spooky.

I have a problem with you implying that Tiny has a bad attitude and all about himself when the fact of the matter is that he's a freshman that is faaaaar from a finished product while Randolph has proven time and again to be a malcontent.

Once again, it's not like this is the first time he's 1) been accused of it, 2) SHOWN it, and 3) yet to fix it. One of the quote I left out earlier wondered whether or not he'd stop working as hard (as he had to lose all of that weight) once he "made it," or began starting in college. Hmmm...

I believe that Tiny thought success was going to come a lot quicker than it has and he had a frustrating game....a freshman showing frustration and immaturity, wow that's never happened before, he's definitely a malcontent who's all about his own stats:rolleyes:

It's not just one game. Quit being facetious.

Just like football fans got spoiled with Sam Bradford and now expect every freshman to play like he did, OU bball fans have gotten spoiled with BG and think that every freshman should have the maturity that he did. This team is full of talent that just needs time to gel. Rather than putting them on the **** list, let's support this team through Big XII play because while this could be a tough season, I truly think next year and the year after that this is going to be a team that goes deep into the tournament and we'll be marveling at how far these kids have come, they just need to learn the game and gain some maturity.

Expectations, especially at the basketball school we want OU to be, are going to be higher for players hitting the court with that many stars beside their name. Period. It's part of it. I support my team, no matter what, and I cheer. But ignoring coaches, refusing to run back in transition (this isn't high school anymore, Keith), refusing to body up the opposing team's big, and playing lackadaisical at best defense isn't what I am going to cheer for. Sorry to disappoint you... but at least you got an apology from me. Think Keith will give you one...?

P.S. Tommy Mason-Griffin is playing out of his mind(assist to turnover ration of over 2:1!) and will be a 4 year player that Big XII fans are going to be wondering when he's going to be leaving in the coming years.

Cool. Why the f*ck does that matter in a discussion about Gallon?

the_ouskull

Sooner4FCD
1/2/2010, 01:15 PM
I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Go Sooners!

starrca23
1/2/2010, 04:49 PM
You are all a bunch of Chicken Littles.
1. Tiny: He has gotten by on being big his whole life and has never had to work hard. Give him a year or two before you pass judgement.
2. Capel: He will either be a great coach here, or somewhere else.
3. If you are willing to start an "I told you so thread, I hope you are also willing to start an "I was dead wrong" thread.
4. This team needs one signature win this season to know what they are capable of, and to understand the work it takes to be that good.

Eielson
1/2/2010, 05:20 PM
3. If you are willing to start an "I told you so thread, I hope you are also willing to start an "I was dead wrong" thread.

I'm still looking for his "I was dead wrong" thread about when he disagreed when I said Oden couldn't hold BG's jock. I said this just before Blake's sophomore season. I'm still waiting.

Gandalf_The_Grey
1/2/2010, 05:52 PM
Well to be fair, Blake and Oden's first year NBA numbers are awfully similar ;)

the_ouskull
1/2/2010, 06:04 PM
The thing is, we've had a handful of early opportunities to get that signature win:

- VCU @ VCU - Capel's old school, would have been big for us...
- our games in Alaska
- UTEP @ the all-college
- Gonzaga @ Gonzaga

...and all of those are teams that we not only had the potential to beat, but probably should have beaten. Our best win right now is against Utah. That's 6-7 Utah on a night where their best player went 4-15 from the field.

We're giving up 71 points per game. We're allowing opponents to shoot 44.5% from the field through 13 games. We were allowing them to shoot 42.8% through 11 games, which ranked us 173rd in the country in field goal percentage defense. Now, our 44.5% is good for a tie for 232nd in the country in field goal percentage defense.

Let me say that again as plainly as possible:

231 NCAA men's Division I basketball teams are holding their opponents to a lower shooting percentage than OU currently is. There are 334 Division I teams. Ranked around OU? Canisius, Monmouth, and Fairleigh-Dickinson, amongst other powerhouses.

And no, we're NOT making up for it on offense...

Once again, through 11 games, we were sitting at a field goal percentage of 45.6%, or good for 97th in the country. We're at 45.7% now, so that only bumps us up to a four-way tie for 93rd. This means that at 92 teams are shooting the basketball better than OU right now.

Our roster is composed mainly of highly-recruited players, including the three McD's AA's that we all know about, yet we're putting up both offensive and defensive (especially) performances that are borderline horrible at best.

It's not just one game. It's not just one player.

- For being considered a shooter, Cade Davis needs to start shooting well. He's shooting 33.7% from the field, and 32.3% from behind the arc. 74.7% of his shots are from behind the arc. Maybe he just needs to start shooting intelligently. He'd be a lot better if he didn't look at the floor on offense, in my humble (HA!) opinion.
- Crocker started hot, but, over the course of a season, things tend to average themselves out. I'm afraid that's happening now.
- "Tiny" can't guard a midget in a phone booth. Even worse than his actual defensive prowess, is that he seems completely uninterested in playing defense. (When his man gets by him, it's usually a basket or/and a foul. When he's boxed out, it's usually a put-back/foul. He also gets beats for offensive rebounds quite a bit, especially by quicker players, regardless of size.)
- TMG has a lot of trouble guarding bigger guards, even moreso on the perimeter than in the post, which is a positive as far as his physical strength and knowledge of positioning, but a big negative in that any guard over about 6'2" can basically shoot right over the top of him like he's not even there. (13 games, 0 blocked shots - not that that's the be-all, end-all of defensive prowess; usually quite the opposite, but in this particular case, it's somewhat telling...)
- Willie 54 assists on the season... and 50 turnovers. THAT is the example he, as our (self-proclaimed?) best player, is setting for his teammates... that possessions don't matter. As a team, we rank 61st in the country in turnovers per game, meaning that 60 teams turn the ball over less often than OU does.
- Capel. I don't think he knows what he wants this team's identity to be yet. I also don't think he fully knows how to control this team, or he'd be doing it by now. I like Capel as a coach, and I think we're both lucky, and glad to have him... but he is not doing a good job with this team, this season. To say otherwise is to ignore the clues that the team is putting on the floor almost every night.

I know that this is a young team, but this is a TALENTED (allegedly) young team, and I feel like our expectations SHOULD be high. I just wish that some of our young players felt the same way and were ready to quit hiding behind the "I'm young" excuses the same way some fans are. Youth isn't an excuse for being lackluster, especially on defense, which is as much about effort as knowledge.

We have one more non-conference game left before it's "go time." As it stands right now, come conference play, we're screwed.

I think we need to get Pledger and Fitzgerald some more minutes, even if they come at the expense of Cade and Keith's minutes. I think that they both have a great deal of future potential, as well as the potential to help this team out immediately. Pledger is a good shooter - 44.9 and 37.5; and Fitzgerald, while not as skilled as Gallon, DOES know his role, and is a quality college-level forward with a lot of potential to improve.

I'm not a Chicken Little, I'm a news reporter - just saying what's happening. When it's my opinion, I'll preface it with something like, "I think..." like I did in the last paragraph. But the stats I'm posting are real. Their effect on this team is real, too. No opinions.

Besides, I'd rather be (incorrectly) considered negative than be a sunshine pumper who is ignoring what's happening on the court in favor of a positive attitude with bunnies and flowers as the losses pile up. My loyalties are to OU, yes, but I don't let that loyalty blind me to what is actually happening on the court as opposed to what I'd like to see happen. Why do you?

the_ouskull

Gandalf_The_Grey
1/2/2010, 06:08 PM
My issue I have with your assessment is that Capel is still learning as well. Coaching basketball is a very difficult endeavor. I don't think he really has an identity as a coach.

the_ouskull
1/2/2010, 07:29 PM
I'm still looking for his "I was dead wrong" thread about when he disagreed when I said Oden couldn't hold BG's jock. I said this just before Blake's sophomore season. I'm still waiting.

So far, for his career, Oden is averaging 9.4 more points per game, 7.3 more boards per game, and 1.4 more blocks per game. I'd say that, so far, Oden has had the better NBA career. What, exactly, was I wrong about...? :D

I mean, they both got drafted number one overall after an All-American season in college. They both got injured during their rookie season. I'm sure that, once Blake starts playing, if he can stay healthy, that he'll be able to at LEAST match Oden's numbers...

...but if Oden stays healthy, I think that he'll be able to match his numbers too. Until they both play a full, healthy season, it's kind of hard to say, honestly... Gandalf's awesome joke aside...

As for you, Eielson...

I decided to do some homework...

I did a search for all threads in which 1) you spoke, and 2) you mentioned the word "Oden." There were three, two if I don't count this one... Here is what you said.


It is highly unlikely that Conley will be able to come close to what Oden will do...

..and the quote with which we're concerned.


I guess Greg Oden was pretty good but he went as the #1 pick in the draft and I don't know if he could hold Blake's jock.

I'm assuming that the latter was your quote in question; the one with which I disagreed?

Yeah, only here's the rest of that bit...


Most college kids that are around 7'0 are soft and uncoordinated. The only recent 7 foot guy that I can think of that wasn't one or the other is Ronny Turiaf.

I guess Greg Oden was pretty good but he went as the #1 pick in the draft and I don't know if he could hold Blake's jock. There aren't very many dominant college players that are over 6'7 or 6'8 and when they do come along they are gone after a year.

First of all... Ronny Turiaf is 6'10", so the whole basis for your initial argument was factually incorrect.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/ronny_turiaf/index.html

But, that's pretty consistent with the amount of research you usually do when pulling opinions out of your magic *sshole, so I wasn't terribly shocked then, nor am I now.

Second, as already mentioned, we've yet to see whether or not Oden/Griffin is a good comparison, at least ON the court. Off the court, they're like freakin' twins. (Hyped-up ROY candidates, injured before the season starts, good dudes, etc... )

Third, a question... Are you a masochist? 'cause if your face isn't still red from me slapping you around in that thread, it'd be a miracle. Like, it wouldn't surprise me if you looked like Rocky Dennis from "Mask" after that thread. Why do you argue with grown-ups? Seriously.

(By the way, of the nine players that I listed to prove you wrong, none of which were Ronny Turiaf, five of them are still playing in the league... six if D.J. White still is... and that's not counting the three others I mentioned later in the thread who are also still in the NBA, including Roy Hibbert, a 7'2" guy who isn't exactly, in your words, soft and uncoordinated, averaging 10 points, 6 boards, a block and a half, and a dime and a half per game, while shooting 48.7% from the field...)

Fourth... Did you think that I'd ignore everything that was said in that thread? Did you think that I'd just take your word for it when you brought it back up in this one? It's not like you're reliable or anything. I mean, in the same post, even, you talked about there being no quality seven-footers, and then you said
no quality players over 6'7"/6'8" and acted incredulous when I started mentioning quality players in that height range as well. I called you out for it then, and I'll do it now, too.

Also, why did you fail to bring up statements like this one:


...worry about whether or not Blake can hold Oden's jock in another year or two.

I'd say that's a pretty good idea, personally; even more so now that Blake's been hurt, and Oden is hurt again. Oh, and that's my quote, by the way...

At least back then you had sense enough to give up when you were beaten...


I'm not even gonna mess with explaining why you are wrong with each and every one of those players. I basically stand by my original comments and don't feel the need to add anything to it.

Do you have enough sense now?

You'll get your "I was wrong" thread, 1) when it's been proven that I was, even though I never specifically compared the two other than disagreeing with your asinine "Oden can't hold Blake's jock" statement, and 2) when you answer the post I directed at you near the end of that thread...


You know, you sure are sticking to this whole "must be seven feet tall" thing pretty vehemently considering the fact that your initial example of a seven foot tall guy was Ronny Turiaf, who is 6'10"...

Why don't you consider THAT before you try to ignore the questions that I've been lobbing you to avoid pointing out the most obvious flaw in your argument and your "logic?"

B*tches, man. B*tches. Geez.

the_ouskull

Post Script -- For the rest of you, the thread in question is here: http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113784&page=2&highlight=Oden

I wouldn't check it out with children present, though. It got an R rating for violence, even though he was asking for it...

the_ouskull
1/2/2010, 07:35 PM
My issue I have with your assessment is that Capel is still learning as well. Coaching basketball is a very difficult endeavor. I don't think he really has an identity as a coach.

As a basketball coach, I understand fully. But, it's not like his career began at OU, either. He's had more than a few years to "sort stuff out," so to speak...

And, I'm all for growing pains. All teams go through them... but this year; this team - it's different. Start watching each game thinking about this:

1) Are we playing good defense; rotating to help well, running out on shooters with hands up - ready to contain, moving our feet instead of our hands, and boxing the H*ll out on rebounds - no tip drills?
2) Are we playing good offense; the majority of our baskets are assisted, we're getting to the free throw line (and hitting them), we're protecting the basketball, and we're not settling for jumpshots - especially early in the possession.

After the first ten minutes of the game, if you've answered all of those questions honestly, you'll usually know whether or not we're going to win the game. Enjoy.

the_ouskull

Eielson
1/2/2010, 07:46 PM
So far, for his career, Oden is averaging 9.4 more points per game, 7.3 more boards per game, and 1.4 more blocks per game. I'd say that, so far, Oden has had the better NBA career. What, exactly, was I wrong about...? :D

I mean, they both got drafted number one overall after an All-American season in college. They both got injured during their rookie season. I'm sure that, once Blake starts playing, if he can stay healthy, that he'll be able to at LEAST match Oden's numbers...

...but if Oden stays healthy, I think that he'll be able to match his numbers too. Until they both play a full, healthy season, it's kind of hard to say, honestly... Gandalf's awesome joke aside...

As for you, Eielson...

I decided to do some homework...

I did a search for all threads in which 1) you spoke, and 2) you mentioned the word "Oden." There were three, two if I don't count this one... Here is what you said.



..and the quote with which we're concerned.



I'm assuming that the latter was your quote in question; the one with which I disagreed?

Yeah, only here's the rest of that bit...

You went off on another argument, so I cut it off here. I never mentioned the second part in this thread, so I'm puzzled as to why you brought it up. Actually, I'm not. You brought it up because you had nothing to say about what we was actually mentioned. I'm not going to bite on you red herring. Not yet at least. It's going to take a couple minutes.

Eielson
1/2/2010, 08:28 PM
Red Herring...

Okay! I told you I wouldn't immediately bite. It's been a few minutes so here I go!

You seem to have ignored how this argument actually started. I'm going to be nice and remind you. Another poster posted-


Is Cannon even big enough to play the 5. I think they might even try to get Allen in there. I know he has had weight issues before, but if his game is decent then I think he'll be the man at the 5. We don't truly have any other big man that can match up down there against guys that are close to 7'0 and around 250.

Let's first start off by saying that nothing in this post says ANYTHING about the pros. You would consistently talk about the pros, but it was completely irrelevant to what was being discussed. Also note the part I bolded. These were supposed to be people around 7 feet tall and 250 pounds. You listed a lot of 6'9 guys. That's nice, but that's not what we were looking for. Plenty of them weren't around 250 either.

Now let's also note the "we don't truly have any other big man that can match up" part. Blake Griffin was listed at 6'10, so what is the point of mentioning a 6'9 guy?

When you mention that Ronnie Turiaf was only 6'10, I must thank you for helping my argument. You seem to think that makes your argument better. Why is this? That just simply means there is one less dominant 7 footer. Good work.


You'll get your "I was wrong" thread, 1) when it's been proven that I was

No, we'll never get your "I was wrong" thread because you're too stubborn to possibly believe that someone as great and wonderful such as yourself could possibly have been wrong.


Second, as already mentioned, we've yet to see whether or not Oden/Griffin is a good comparison, at least ON the court. Off the court, they're like freakin' twins. (Hyped-up ROY candidates, injured before the season starts, good dudes, etc... )

It's pretty easy to see if you would open your eyes that Blake was the better college player. Blake won basically every college award that he possibly could. This was in a thread about college basketball. What made you think that the NBA was important to this argument? It's like saying that Jason White was a terrible college quarterback because he didn't get drafted. I never said that there weren't any good players in the 7 foot range in the NBA. I was talking about COLLEGE. I capitalized it so that you hopefully don't miss it.

Eielson
1/2/2010, 08:45 PM
Oh, and while we're brining up other things, let's look at this gem:


My "fantasy" lineup for next season:

1 - Willie Warren, Freshman
2 - Tony Crocker - Junior
3 - Blake Griffin - Sophomore
4 - Taylor Griffin - Senior
5 - Ryan Wright - transfer Junior

He wanted to play Blake Griffin at the three?!?!?! AHAHAHAHA!

And...


Blake DOES have a place, but he's far from a unique snowflake.

Yeah, Capel wouldn't consider him a "once in a lifetime" player or anything...

the_ouskull
1/2/2010, 09:03 PM
The NBA players that I mentioned all played in college, during the same seasons we were discussing in that thread.

Also, considering that Oden was the better college player between the two of them after only one season, before leaving for the NBA; and that Blake's second season was the one in which our worlds were rocked, who's to say what Oden would have been like had he stuck around for a second year of college basketball? Maybe he gets hurt. Maybe he puts up a 20/15/5 while shooting 65% and leading his team to (another) championship game? Who knows?

I mean, as long as we're talking about college and all.

Blake won every college award because he stuck around to do it. So, in comparing Blake to Oden, you either need to compare what's fair, their freshman seasons, or you need to concede that the number of years a player plays does make a difference when evaluating them, and adjust your system of measurement accordingly.

The whole NBA thing, which I did start, I started in response to your ridiculous "seven footers" statement. The post players I listed, all COLLEGE players, by the way, were being scouted/considered by NBA teams, which is a measure of their relative skill/exposure at the college level, and, hence (I wish I didn't have to explain the most basic things to you) their relative skill at the COLLEGE (capitalized so that, hopefully, you don't miss it) level as well. College was the root of my discussion also... I just went to people smarter than you or I as a filter; people who get paid to do what we do on message boards for free.

Next, rather than peruse every college team's roster for every player over 84 inches tall, or 82 inches tall according to your Ronny "I'm actually six ten" Turiaf example of a seven footber. I then took the same two inch liberty that you did, and that your old lady does, in listing college post players who were both 6'8" or taller and being considered by NBA teams. As I have already explained, rather than allow you, and your scientific "He sucked, he didn't even start" method to determine a player's merit, I chose to allow a player's potential value to an NBA team to be my first filter. And, as I've already stated, of the players I listed, a full nine of them are still playing in the NBA, indicating that they did, indeed, have a degree of skill above and beyond your "soft and uncoordinated" qualifier WHILE IN COLLEGE. As for your waffling on the whole "using a six ten guy as an example of a seven footer" thing... I already explained why I took the two (more) inch(es) liberty that I did in listing the (number of) players that proved you wrong, but it was you that said there's not really any difference between six eight and six nine, and, for once, I happen to agree.

I mean, look at your hand. The width of that hand is roughly the difference between being seven feet tall and being six foot eight. It's all about skill; about ability. Blake Griffin and Dejuan Blair, two VERY differently shaped players, put up pretty similar numbers. (In college, mind you. I'm talking about COLLEGE.)

I didn't capitalize that last one for you, I did it 'cause I'm a d*ck.

the_ouskull

the_ouskull
1/2/2010, 09:36 PM
Oh, and while we're brining up other things, let's look at this gem:

He wanted to play Blake Griffin at the three?!?!?! AHAHAHAHA!

And...

Yeah, Capel wouldn't consider him a "once in a lifetime" player or anything...

Anything taken out of context can be used... no, you still even screwed that up. Aside from the fact that you, yourself bragged about posting said thread before Blake's sophomore season, I pimped him quite a bit, too. Then, as now, my problem with you is of ignorance and hyperbole. I mean, really, Mensa...? Are you REALLY sitting here right now and trying to pat yourself on the back for thinking that Blake was going to have a good sophomore season? Well, Nostraeielson, you really nailed that one. Did you think it was going to snow this year in December too?

Blake was a great college player. I loved having him in Crimson and Cream, I loved having him as an ambass'der for our school, etc... Blake was truly a great college basketball player. An all-time one, no, because of the fact that he only played two seasons, but a great one nonetheless. Coaches are lucky to ever coach a guy like him, which is how players get considered "once in a lifetime" players.

But is he really? (Yes and No, in case you're wondering...)

I mean, it's not a super-long list, but there are players who average greater than 18.8 and 11.8 on 62% shooting for their careers. As for his super-stellar sophomore season, there are players that do that, too. H*ll, the cat from Notre Dame, Harangody, is putting up Blake-like numbers this season, AND he's done it the last two seasons, too. (He doesn't match Blake's field goal percentages, but his 3pt shot makes up for it...)

Go ask Washington fans about Klay Thompson. Or Houston fans about Aubrey Coleman. Or Morgan State fans about Reggie Holmes, even. Go ask those coaches... you'll get the "once in a lifetime" answer about those guys, too.

I'm not saying that it's not true with Blake, necessarily, but it's also thrown around rather indiscriminately, which waters-down the meaning a bit. Carmelo Anthony was a once-in-a-lifetime college player. Oscar Robertson. Pete Maravich. Christian Laettner. (I hate myself...) Danny Manning. (Now I really hate myself...) Larry Bird.

Are college basketball fans outside of Oklahoma going to talk about Blake Griffin in five years? Ten years? Twenty years? I think that, to Oklahoma fans, Blake will be remembered almost as fondly as Wayman, if not moreso (with the younger fans) for many, many years to come.

But how many college basketball fans 1) outside of the state of Oklahoma, and 2) under the age 40 remember what Wayman was all about? I wish it were more than it probably is, but you get the point.

Then again, you probably don't.

the_ouskull

the_ouskull
1/2/2010, 10:02 PM
I just had a friend ask me what I'd do if I were Bruce Pearl. Is it bad that my first response was, "Wax." That's not bad, right?

the_ouskull

Eielson
1/2/2010, 10:36 PM
Also, considering that Oden was the better college player between the two of them after only one season, before leaving for the NBA; and that Blake's second season was the one in which our worlds were rocked, who's to say what Oden would have been like had he stuck around for a second year of college basketball? Maybe he gets hurt. Maybe he puts up a 20/15/5 while shooting 65% and leading his team to (another) championship game? Who knows?

Do you remember the Xavier game? Ohio State beat Xavier because Oden fouled out. After he fouled out they went on a run, forced the overtime, and blew Xavier out in OT. They were BETTER without him. There just happened to be two other first rounders on that team. Conley went #4 and Cook went #21. Was Oden even the best player on that team?!



The whole NBA thing, which I did start, I started in response to your ridiculous "seven footers" statement. The post players I listed, all COLLEGE players, by the way, were being scouted/considered by NBA teams, which is a measure of their relative skill/exposure at the college level, and, hence (I wish I didn't have to explain the most basic things to you) their relative skill at the COLLEGE (capitalized so that, hopefully, you don't miss it) level as well. College was the root of my discussion also... I just went to people smarter than you or I as a filter; people who get paid to do what we do on message boards for free.


As I have already explained, rather than allow you, and your scientific "He sucked, he didn't even start" method to determine a player's merit, I chose to allow a player's potential value to an NBA team to be my first filter.

Potential value? This isn't about potential. It's about how good of a college player they were. You're welcome to believe DeAndre Jordan is a stud, but reality (if you choose to accept it) is that he just wasn't that good. He couldn't even start for his team.


I mean, look at your hand. The width of that hand is roughly the difference between being seven feet tall and being six foot eight.

Awesome! The length of my hand is approximately 8 inches. Tony Crocker is basically over seven feet!

Collier11
1/2/2010, 10:50 PM
I have a hard time saying that Oden was better in yr 1 than BG was, I think it is pretty similiar...I think Conley had quite a impact on that team as well as Cook

Eielson
1/2/2010, 11:01 PM
H*ll, the cat from Notre Dame, Harangody, is putting up Blake-like numbers this season, AND he's done it the last two seasons, too.

Are you really crazy enough to think that Harangody is as good as Blake was? Notre Dame didn't even go to the NCAA Tournament last year.


Are college basketball fans outside of Oklahoma going to talk about Blake Griffin in five years? Ten years? Twenty years?

Naismith winners aren't as easily forgotten as you make them to be. This is the list of Blake and the last 12 Naismith Winners before him:

2009 Blake Griffin • Oklahoma
2008 Tyler Hansbrough • North Carolina
2007 Kevin Durant • Texas
2006 J.J. Redick ∙ Duke
2005 Andrew Bogut ∙ Utah
2004 Jameer Nelson • Saint Joseph’s
2003 T.J. Ford • Texas
2002 Jason Williams • Duke
2001 Shane Battier • Duke
2000 Kenyon Martin • Cincinnati
1999 Elton Brand • Duke
1998 Antawn Jamison • North Carolina
1997 Tim Duncan • Wake Forest

If you aren't familiar with those names, then you probably aren't really a college basketball fan, or you just haven't been a college basketball fan for that long. You should know every one of them, and Blake is one of the best.

These are the first seven winners of the award:

1975 David Thompson • N.C. State
1974 Bill Walton • UCLA
1973 Bill Walton • UCLA
1972 Bill Walton • UCLA
1971 Austin Carr • Notre Dame
1970 Pete Maravich • LSU
1969 Lew Alcindor • UCLA

Heard of any of them?

the_ouskull
1/2/2010, 11:31 PM
One game? You are now trying to say that Oden was the third best player on his own team because of one game...? Man, you are ______ ______. I am not saying that like, as an internet put-down. I mean, you are just plain old not smart. If I have to get popped for a few days for saying it, whatever, but it's the truth. Like, you're "tie a string around your finger to remember to breath and blink" dumb. This is a once-in-a-lifetime kind of painful to watch.

BUT, since I have to... I may as well enjoy my work, no?

-----

In that Xavier game, Oden put up 14 points and 12 boards, including 5 offensive rebounds, in addition to blocking 2 shots and collecting 2 steals. Do you think that any of that had an effect on the game at all; the fact that Oden had as many offensive boards as the entire Xavier team?

Also, he fouled out with nine seconds left in regulation. The "run" that they went on afterwards was Ron Lewis hitting a three pointer to tie the game with six seconds left in regulation. They ended up winning the game by seven, hardly a "blow out," and, to boot, according to statsheet.com, the game wasn't statistically over until there were only 29 seconds left in the overtime period... so the "blow out" theory just got "blown out" twice. Sorry 'bout that.

Nice try on the lie, though. It might have worked on someone as smart as you are...

I mean, maybe I'm using words that are too big for you, like "potential value," because you seemed to get stumped after those two and failed to include the rest of them, which were "to an NBA team to be my first filter." I'll say it again, rather than browse 300+ rosters and stat sheets, looking for players that blew your ridiculous argument out of the water, I, instead, used a college player's potential value to an NBA team as my first filter... once again, in lieu of (that means "instead of") going through every roster. My line of thinking (that means "thinking" - I can see you don't do it, but I at least wanted you to have the definition) being, if people who are smarter than I, and exponentially smarter than you, have already done the legwork, I'm going to put said work to good use.

Also, in the event of DeAndre Jordan, you are putting your (dumb as f*ck) words into my mouth. I said that he didn't fit your "slow and uncoordinated" mold. You're the one calling him a stud. (Good luck finding where I did it, I mean, WITHOUT making it up like you have half of what you think I've said so far...)

Now, are your words dumb because I think Jordan is a stud? No. I thought he was a decent college player with a lot of upside potential; an athletically gifted big man absolutely overflowing with raw talent. But, he was a f*cking idiot (aw, you have a kindred spirit) for going pro after his freshman season. I mean, 8 points and 6 boards on 62% shooting is a pretty good freshman year. It's a Big 12 all-rookie team kind of season, in fact... but it's not NBA-ready.

No, you're dumb because you can't read.


He couldn't even start for his team.

DeAndre Jordan's Games Started while at Texas A&M: 21.

Also, there's this gem, as long as you're mining for them and all... I didn't have to dig too deep for this one, though.


Me: I mean, look at your hand. The width of that hand is roughly the difference between being seven feet tall and being six foot eight.


You: Awesome! The length of my hand is approximately 8 inches. Tony Crocker is basically over seven feet!

Super. Now, after you calculate the surface area of your hand, I want you to choke yourself with it.

Oh, and one more thing:


You: There just happened to be two other first rounders on that team. Conley went #4 and Cook went #21.

I thought that we were talking about COLLEGE basketball. What does the fact that Conley and Cook went in the first round have to do with anything? YOUR argument, not mine, sir.


You: What made you think that the NBA was important to this argument?

Now, on a serious note, if you don't stop trying to respond to me, I am worried that someone will call PETA or the Humane Society on me or something. Don't get me wrong, I hope someday to get bested by a better man in one of these little "internet tiffs," but dude, you ain't it.

the_ouskull

Eielson
1/3/2010, 12:50 AM
In that Xavier game, Oden put up 14 points and 12 boards, including 5 offensive rebounds, in addition to blocking 2 shots and collecting 2 steals. Do you think that any of that had an effect on the game at all; the fact that Oden had as many offensive boards as the entire Xavier team?

You apparently didn't see the game, so what makes you think you're an expert on what happened? If you knew as much about basketball as you claim, you would know that stats aren't everything. Shoot, if you knew as much as you think you do you would be winning championships for an NCAA or NBA team (you would be able to choose...maybe even with championships at both levels). ESPN would be praising you for your brilliant idea of putting BG at guard as we speak. Anyway, just so you can have one of those stats that you love so much, Oden had four turnovers in that game to one assist. That's what he usually did, though, seeing as he averaged 3 turnovers for every assist.


They ended up winning the game by seven, hardly a "blow out," and, to boot, according to statsheet.com, the game wasn't statistically over until there were only 29 seconds left in the overtime period... so the "blow out" theory just got "blown out" twice. Sorry 'bout that.

The game wasn't technically over until time ran out. That game never got closer than 5 points for the last three minutes (plus three seconds). They had already built up an 8 point lead with 2 minutes left, and had a 9 point lead until Lavender hit a meaningless lay up with 5 seconds in the game to cut it to 7. So basically, during the time Oden was either in the game, or eligible to be in the game, Ohio State was losing by 3. For the final 5:09 (the time Oden was out), Ohio State outscored Xavier by 10. So basically when Oden went out, Ohio State started to dominate the game.

Oh, and one more note since you seemed to have missed the game, Oden nearly cost Ohio State the game because of his immaturity. He deserved more than just a personal foul. He basically threw the guy. He gave up on his team, and nearly caused their Championship Game run to end in the second round to an 8 seed. Maturity isn't a statistic, though, so I guess it doesn't matter, right?



Also, in the event of DeAndre Jordan, you are putting your (dumb as f*ck) words into my mouth. I said that he didn't fit your "slow and uncoordinated" mold.

That's really nice. He's not slow and uncoordinated. This all started with somebody questioning how we were going to match up with 7 foot, 250 pound guys. You got busy going off on different arguments that you might have forgotten that. We played the guy, and we didn't struggle to match up with him. So who really cares if he doesn't fit the stereotype that most people his size do? He's still not that good.


DeAndre Jordan's Games Started while at Texas A&M: 21.

Okay? They played, what 30 something games? That means there are quite a few games that he didn't start.


Also, there's this gem, as long as you're mining for them and all... I didn't have to dig too deep for this one, though.

I know that you said width. I changed it to length. Who really cares how wide your hands are? Four inches is still four inches. I was mocking you. I thought it was pretty obvious, so why couldn't you catch on?




I thought that we were talking about COLLEGE basketball. What does the fact that Conley and Cook went in the first round have to do with anything?

You do have a point there.

One last thing. You've spent more time telling me how much smarter you are than me, and saying how this argument isn't even close than you have actually defending your claims and attacking mine. I find this similar to a guy in a room full of other guys telling them all how tough he is. Reality is that the true tough guy didn't have to tell anybody. I respect 04's opinion much more than I do yours. You don't see him having to tell everybody that he knows a lot about basketball. Small dogs bark the loudest.

the_ouskull
1/3/2010, 03:02 AM
...says the rat terrier yipping at the door to the doghouse.

I respect 04's opinion more than my own, too. When people back up the things that they say, I tend to do that. You? You're just yip yip yipping away, hoping someone will bail you out.

- I had a point with the Ronny Turiaf thing too. You ignored it.
- I also had a point when I called you out for saying that Jordan never started for his team. He did.
- The entire OSU/Xavier game, even though you brought it up, did more to prove my points than your own. Is that why you're trying to convince yourself that I didn't watch it? Yeah, 'cause I miss lots of tournament games. And by "lots," I mean, "almost none."

Yeah, Oden had four turnovers in that game. Not his best work. To counter, I was going to start posting his stats from the run (from roughly 10:03 left in the 2nd half until 2:54 left) that allowed OSU to get back into it. A run that Oden played a big part in. A run that you ignored due to the harm it does to your argument that Oden didn't effect that game, and tOSU would have been better off without him. An argument, that you would have, no doubt, were there such an opening, tried to bring back full-circle to the statements I made about Gallon.

I'd ask you why you are ignoring the things I'm mentioning, but you'd probably just ignore that question as well and then follow it up with yet another contradiction.

I've spent plenty of time; most of it, in fact, attacking your claims, even though many of them are so without merit, it is unnecessary. I don't need to spend time defending mine anymore because 1) you'll try to respond to them without reading them anyway, and 2) because my claims ARE my defense. I don't make claims without trying to back them up in some way. This is, though, where I should point out that when I say "back them up" I mean "through legitimate means," and not deceptive ones. You've been busted in more than one lie so far. What's next?

Oh, and small dogs don't bark the loudest. Their bark is the most annoying, but they're not the loudest. Not that it matters. We're talking COLLEGE, not KENNEL.

And I generally don't tell people that I know a lot about basketball. I just tell you that you know very little. Once again, a subtle difference, but an accurate one. Besides, what does my bloated sense of self-importance have to do with my knowledge of basketball? Because I'm a d*ck to stupid people, it means that I've forgotten what I know about ball? Not seeing it.

Now, I'll leave you on this:


If you knew as much about basketball as you claim, you would know that stats aren't everything.

Nor do I think that they are. They are, however, one H*ll of a jumping-off point. Team chemistry is very important. So is a player's respect for their coach and vice versa. Defense may be the most important part of the game, and there are very few regular (and only slightly more advanced/metric) statistical measures of defense. But, in particular situations, stats tell almost all of the story, almost all of the time. Long term, they're a lot more telling than educated guesses...


Shoot, if you knew as much as you think you do you would be winning championships...

Yeah, you're probably right.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/sichuevos/MahaffeyFirstTrophy.jpg

the_ouskull

Sooner4FCD
1/3/2010, 03:31 AM
Damn, I'm glad I got out of the argument when I did.

WildBlueSooner
1/3/2010, 04:01 AM
Delete please.

birddog
1/3/2010, 09:47 AM
Ahhhh, it's nice to see some friendly banter around here.

the_ouskull
1/3/2010, 10:33 AM
Well, you know me... I live for friendly banter. :D

the_ouskull

Eielson
1/3/2010, 12:56 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/sichuevos/MahaffeyFirstTrophy.jpg

A regional championship for a small high school girl's team? I'm disappointed, skull.

the_ouskull
1/3/2010, 03:05 PM
Well, basketball I know. Scanners, on the other hand, are an area in which I have extremely limited skills. I lifted this pic from the MySpace account of one of my players or I wouldn't even have it.

Sorry to disappoint you, though. Perhaps you should post pics of some of your coaching championships.

the_ouskull

Collier11
1/3/2010, 03:12 PM
we all know that assistant coaches in HS do very little as far as the success or failure of the team.

Eielson
1/3/2010, 03:24 PM
we all know that assistant coaches in HS do very little as far as the success or failure of the team.

An assistant on a small school girl's basketball team that won a regional? Really? That's nice and all, but that's nothing to brag about.

the_ouskull
1/3/2010, 03:46 PM
They only won three games before I started assisting in December and they won their district afterwards, but frankly, I don't need, or like, to talk about work, especially on a message board, nor do I need your approval of my accomplishments, professional or otherwise. I'm quite comfortable in my skin. If you were comfortable in yours, you'd post pics of the championships you've won instead of trying to first question, and then, when proven wrong, demean mine.

But, your choice to ignore the question the first time leads me to believe that you haven't won any; that you have no involvement with basketball outside of watching games from the bench in high school and the couch now. If I'm wrong about that, I apologize, but, if I WAS wrong, you'd have tried to say so already, no?

Basketball's a little different game when you're watching it standing up. Until you draw up a play with a game on the line, and then see your players execute it and win said game, you'll never know. A man with experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument. I have both. You have neither. So please, feel free to stuhfoo.

Collie: Have you coached? Do you now? Find me a championship team with poor coaching, assistants or otherwise, please. I'd like to sign up. If I can do less work and get paid more, or even equally, I'm in. It's the American way.

the_ouskull

starrca23
1/3/2010, 03:59 PM
OU will be a good team, it will just take a while. They have all of the pieces...they just don't fit together quite yet.
Jeff Capel is a good coach. Period.

Collier11
1/3/2010, 04:34 PM
Collie: Have you coached? Do you now? Find me a championship team with poor coaching, assistants or otherwise, please. I'd like to sign up. If I can do less work and get paid more, or even equally, I'm in. It's the American way.

the_ouskull

Just given you a hard time Skull...I am actually about to go into coaching, I always wanted to but put it off out of college because I wanted to make sure I was completely devoted to teaching as well unlike some coaches.

Eielson
1/3/2010, 05:05 PM
But, your choice to ignore the question the first time leads me to believe that you haven't won any; that you have no involvement with basketball outside of watching games from the bench in high school and the couch now. If I'm wrong about that, I apologize, but, if I WAS wrong, you'd have tried to say so already, no?

I've won plenty games, and have been involved with many good teams. I've never coached, which is why I didn't talk about my coaching. So no, I've never coached, but yes, I've definitely played.


Basketball's a little different game when you're watching it standing up. Until you draw up a play with a game on the line, and then see your players execute it and win said game, you'll never know.

The head coach doesn't draw up the plays?

Anyway, I know assistants can be valuable. Honestly, they're more valuable in the town I've grown up in. I grew up at a big school, though, and situations like my town are rare even at big schools. Most high school girl's assistant coaches are average at best from what I've seen. You may be an exception. I don't really know.

Ton Loc
1/4/2010, 10:07 AM
Its good to have a thread with some conflict and I'm not surprised at who started it. I am surprised anyone tries to argue with skull...

Anyway - let me vent my frustrations

Willie is killing me for every reason already listed on this board. He's been killing me since last year. He's not a leader, he's not a pg, but he is going to the NBA (then straight to europe)

Capel is letting me down big time. Whoever said he's still learning - Given me a f'n break. (I'm still a closet Kelvin fan)

I feel I could out rebound, play defense better, and play better team basketball than Tiny. It's laughable that he is/was projected to go to the NBA. Comparing him to Randolph is too kind.

My wife was nice enough to buy me tickets to the rest of the home games for xmas. Keep an eye out for the guy running onto the court to kick Willie in the *** the next time his attitude goes south in a game (shouldn't be a long wait)

I know this team is young, but Jeebus the effort at this point is pure sh!$. I feel sorry for Crocker. Its never too late to turn a team around but I'm not feeling overly positive at this point. I'll be at the game tonight with my 5 year old. Hopefully, we won't be using it as a learning experience on how not to play.

Gandalf_The_Grey
1/4/2010, 10:50 AM
Coaching basketball to me is harder than any other sport. Basketball players of any talent are taught from a really young age that they are the best player and must carry the team. Also, no matter how good you are, you are going to have nights were things don't go well. Football is much more structured because the players are taught if X happens...then do Y. Also its hard to tell if a recruit handles adversity well because most of them don't have much in high school. This team does not have an identity, this team really needs more work.

Ton Loc
1/4/2010, 11:39 AM
Coaching basketball may be hard but this team is missing the basics.

Rebounding - Defense - Teamwork

These are basic pull your head out of your *** and give some effort things we are missing.

badger
1/4/2010, 12:11 PM
I was once in a show choir called Sweet Adelines... and yes, I know I'm too young to be involved in such a group, but it really was a lot of fun and I was still in high school and all. Here's a parody of one of the songs that we did, which I am revising to fit this season:

Oh Lord it's hard to be optimistic
when the team's sucking in every way.
I can't wait to look at the message boards
cause we get worse looking each day.
To know OU is to love OU
and Capel's a hell of a man.
Oh Lord it's hard to be optimistic
but I'm doing the best that I can.

Verse 1:

Willie used to have some confidence
but now he just can't compete
with all of these attention-starved programs
who keep pounding us into defeat.
Capel prob'ly could find another McD's AA
but I guess they're all goin' to Dukieee.
Who cares, I hate Duke anyway
cause all of Dickie V's flattery.

I give up... I'll do verse two after the next loss :(

Collier11
1/4/2010, 01:24 PM
Its good to have a thread with some conflict and I'm not surprised at who started it. I am surprised anyone tries to argue with skull...
.

You act as if he is some monster that will eat your face...as long as you arent some complete dumbazz Skull is a good person to talk with/argue with...lucky for him there are a bunch of complete dumbazzes staggering around in here so he has quite a bit of fun

Eielson
1/4/2010, 01:50 PM
You act as if he is some monster that will eat your face...as long as you arent some complete dumbazz Skull is a good person to talk with/argue with...lucky for him there are a bunch of complete dumbazzes staggering around in here so he has quite a bit of fun

Seeing as he seems to have "quite a bit of fun" with you, are you calling yourself a "complete dumbazz?" I just had to ask.

Ton Loc
1/4/2010, 01:54 PM
You act as if he is some monster that will eat your face...as long as you arent some complete dumbazz Skull is a good person to talk with/argue with...lucky for him there are a bunch of complete dumbazzes staggering around in here so he has quite a bit of fun

True - I enjoy skull, but some people still surprise me.

Collier11
1/4/2010, 01:57 PM
Seeing as he seems to have "quite a bit of fun" with you, are you calling yourself a "complete dumbazz?" I just had to ask.

touche'.....dikwad :D

Eielson
1/4/2010, 02:00 PM
True - I enjoy skull, but some people still surprise me.

I take full responsibility for baiting him. I wanted to see him write a book sized response to my one sentence.

Bourbon St Sooner
1/4/2010, 02:02 PM
I remember last year around this time skull started a thread calling Austin Johnson the biggest waste of a scholarship evar (or something like that). Then AJ went off in January. Hopefully Tiny will do that this year. Hopefully.

Collier11
1/4/2010, 02:03 PM
Austin Johnson as a whole was not a big time D1 player and should have been coming off the bench, having said that he kept getting better and played really well at times last yr

Bourbon St Sooner
1/4/2010, 02:23 PM
The month of January he had last year was heavenly. Too bad that couldn't have continued through to March. He was terrible his first three years, especially handling the ball, but I thought he played well his senior season even before he got hot in January.

Eielson
1/4/2010, 02:58 PM
Austin Johnson as a whole was not a big time D1 player and should have been coming off the bench, having said that he kept getting better and played really well at times last yr

I'd take him back in a second.

Collier11
1/4/2010, 03:07 PM
For his D, in a heartbeat...that guy could lockdown on D and that is what kept him on the floor

the_ouskull
1/4/2010, 10:30 PM
Just given you a hard time Skull...I am actually about to go into coaching, I always wanted to but put it off out of college because I wanted to make sure I was completely devoted to teaching as well unlike some coaches.

I didn't coach my first year either. I didn't even try to. In fact, it was coaches like that - the "I teach Driver's Ed" motherf*ckers - that made me want to do it that much more. I teach a core class (English, in case you didn't know... :D) and still find time to coach. Now, how well I do either isn't really up to me to decide. I have a district and two tournament championships spread out amongst the five teams I've coached (junior high and high school) but, frankly, I tend to agree with the consensus that coaches, while important, are not the be-all, end-all - at any level.

I mean, for every Phil Jackson and Gregg Popovich, there are a dozen or more Vinny Del Negro's.

But, for me, coaching is about being around the sport that I love, and trying to teach others the right reasons to play the game; the whole "fish for a man, he eats for a day.." thing. Teaching is about trying to get kids that don't give a sh*t to start giving a sh*t. I want them to better themselves, not to pass my class, but to avoid failing at life. My room is the English room, but I try to teach a lot more than English. Some days, it goes better than others.

But I'll quit coaching completely before I become one of those "coaches that also teaches," over being a "teacher that also coaches." It's ALL about education. Say what you will about a coach like Bobby Knight, but he spent his career turning boys into men, and I respect the heck out of him for it. (I also understand why he threw chairs and choked people, but that's another argument for another time...)

Sorry it's been a few days. I got into a fight with the GRE today, and I've been preparing for it. I didn't kick its *ss, but it got the worst of it, to be sure. Time (and my scores on the writing section; the question was about education, by the way... imagine Barry Bonds playing tee ball... =) will tell whether or not it was worth the $150 and the trip to the city, though.

Now, if you a-holes will excuse me, I have some faces to go and eat.

the_ouskull

the_ouskull
1/13/2010, 11:25 PM
Well to be fair, Blake and Oden's first year NBA numbers are awfully similar ;)

Yeah, TOO similar... I guess my comparison wasn't too far off after all. Joy. :(

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/columns/story?id=4823513

the_ouskull

starclassic tama
1/26/2010, 01:44 AM
An assistant on a small school girl's basketball team that won a regional? Really? That's nice and all, but that's nothing to brag about.

he's making an impact on young people's lives and teaching them one of the best games in the world? you're a dick dude

OUmillenium
1/26/2010, 01:37 PM
I 2nd starclassics observation.

Rock Hard Corn Frog
1/26/2010, 01:52 PM
Make mine a 3rd. In terms of strategy, motivation, time and effort, etc it is no less challenging coaching the girls game. I respect those that put in the time and effort to do it...and have a little success as well.

the_ouskull
1/26/2010, 05:49 PM
Thanks, all. I didn't even see the original post, but it's not like it has an effect on me, either.

But, to be fair, I don't know if I'm a "girls coach" or a "boys coach" or what, since I've coached 7-12th, boys and girls, "officially," and college players and 4-6th graders "unofficially." I just love the game and don't really care about the labels. I'm not coaching anywhere this season, but I'm still coaching, ya dig?

the_ouskull

Eielson
1/26/2010, 06:28 PM
he's making an impact on young people's lives and teaching them one of the best games in the world? you're a dick dude

Was there really a need to respond to this post three weeks later? Regardless, more than one person has said the same about Skull, so I'm really not that concerned. Shoot, Skull calls himself a dick. You seem to have misinterpreted my post, though, so I'll clear it up. I'm not making fun of Skull for coaching girl's basketball. In fact, I wasn't making fun of him in that post, period. I'm just saying that I'm not going to sit here in awe and worship him because he won a regional as an assistant girl's basketball coach. So like I said, "that's nice and all, but that's nothing to brag about."

Rickety_Syd
1/26/2010, 07:20 PM
How many people truly thought this team was going to be really good this year?
I, for one, did not have high expectations. The Griffin brothers and Johnson left a huge void. I did not expect Gallon or Mason-Griffin to come in and dominate as freshmen. Cade Davis is not a consistent D-I shooter and Crocker has always been a role player. The bench players are hit and miss.
And Warren (oh, man), not only is he overrated, but he thinks he's way better than he is, plus he kind of has an attitude.

I think this team is about where I thought they'd be -- about average. I'm not going to say Capel isn't doing a good job or doesn't know how to coach this team because I just don't think this team is that good to begin with.

I guess it's easy as a fan to say a coach isn't cutting it when the team isn't winning, but I'm willing to entertain the possibility that OU is doing about as well as it can right now.

yankee
1/26/2010, 07:52 PM
i'd thought i'd seen it all...that is until i've seen tiny gallon...20 games into his college days...being compared to zach randolph...an NBA vet...who by the way is on a very good young team (that has a winning record), and has been an instrumental part in the grizz being good this year.

Eielson
1/26/2010, 10:39 PM
i'd thought i'd seen it all...that is until i've seen tiny gallon...20 games into his college days...being compared to zach randolph...an NBA vet

If somebody gets called a Benedict Arnold are you going to say, "hey that's stupid! He's not a General in the United States army!"

Collier11
1/26/2010, 10:58 PM
Gallon isnt the punk that Randolph is/was therefore that comparison is void

yankee
1/26/2010, 11:07 PM
If somebody gets called a Benedict Arnold are you going to say, "hey that's stupid! He's not a General in the United States army!"

i'm still completely unable to comprehend the comparison between tiny and zach randolph. maybe you can fill me in, along with the others.

Eielson
1/29/2010, 04:28 PM
i'm still completely unable to comprehend the comparison between tiny and zach randolph. maybe you can fill me in, along with the others.

If you're incapable of even reading the original post, please don't jump into a discussion.


Cliffs Notes: Really, really offensively gifted power forward who is almost a guaranteed 20/10 guy every season, and shoots a high percentage as well... but is the ultimate loser. He's played for I've lost count of how many teams, in large part because he's all about his numbers, and REFUSES to play defense.

OUmillenium
1/29/2010, 11:54 PM
I thought this team would be a little better than they are now. Those losses in Alaska were subpar performances.

ON the Austing J post, he surprised me with an excellent Senior year. I really enjoyed how he stepped up and made some huge shots and plays last year that I did not expect.