Torture You Can Believe In.... [Archive] - SoonerFans.com Message Boards

OklahomaTuba

12/22/2009, 11:18 AM

Interesting...

CIA working with Palestinian security agents
US agency co-operating with Palestinian counterparts who allegedly torture Hamas supporters in West Bank.

Palestinian security agents who have been detaining and allegedly torturing supporters of the Islamist organisation Hamas in the West Bank have been working closely with the CIA, the Guardian has learned.

Less than a year after Barack Obama signed an executive order that prohibited torture and provided for the lawful interrogation of detainees in US custody, evidence is emerging the CIA is co-operating with security agents whose continuing use of torture has been widely documented by human rights groups.http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/17/cia-palestinian-security-agents

NormanPride

12/22/2009, 11:46 AM

As long as we're not doing it? Signing that no-torture stuff was just PR I guess.

JohnnyMack

12/22/2009, 12:11 PM

Now you have a problem with torture?

You're such a buffoon.

Veritas

12/22/2009, 01:18 PM

Now you have a problem with torture?

You're such a buffoon.
I find it funny that people get all verklempt about US forces engaging in torture, talking how we're better than that as a nation or how we need to set a higher standard or whatever. Those are usually the arguments.

As though torture is something in which we've only engaged within this decade. As though we were so much better as a nation during for the first 224 years and we just lost our **** during the last nine.

History, unfortunately, doesn't really line up that way. Our armed forces have had to so some things that they found morally repugnant to defend the country. This includes torture and will this will continue to be the case regardless of whether it's officially sanctioned or not.

I find it disgusting that we have to kill people, including innocent civilians, to protect the country. It's horrid that we have young men come back from Iraq and Afghanistan mentally scarred from their experiences. Nobody's really talking about it much, but those kids come back ****ed up in the head.

But man, being a strong nation isn't always free healthcare, homes for all who want them, and food on the table even if you've not worked for it. Having those things means some serious ****ing sacrifice. I'm damn thankful I've not had to engage in that sacrifice personally, but I'm not ready to start castigating the methods of those on the cutting edge.

Sorry. I meant to only do two sentences and it ended up a rant.

Boomer_Sooner_sax

12/22/2009, 01:45 PM

Torture, I have to pay my dominatrix extra for that...

Oh wait, we talking about something else?

StoopTroup

12/22/2009, 02:14 PM

Fight fire with fire I say.

I don't give a crap what PBHO said before he was POTUS really. They all change once the keys to the White House are handed to them and they get to see what they've been elected to do. It's got to be a real shock I'm guessing.

Howzit

12/22/2009, 03:54 PM

You're such a buffoon.

I wish you had said 'buttspoon' instead of 'buffoon,' because this one time, I had a really old dog whut couldn't poot very good and I had to finish them off with a spoon and it would have tied in nicely.

Tulsa_Fireman

12/22/2009, 04:04 PM

Only buttspoons like t3h torty00rz lol

Chuck Bao

12/22/2009, 04:59 PM

I find it funny that people get all verklempt about US forces engaging in torture, talking how we're better than that as a nation or how we need to set a higher standard or whatever. Those are usually the arguments.

As though torture is something in which we've only engaged within this decade. As though we were so much better as a nation during for the first 224 years and we just lost our **** during the last nine.

History, unfortunately, doesn't really line up that way. Our armed forces have had to so some things that they found morally repugnant to defend the country. This includes torture and will this will continue to be the case regardless of whether it's officially sanctioned or not.

I find it disgusting that we have to kill people, including innocent civilians, to protect the country. It's horrid that we have young men come back from Iraq and Afghanistan mentally scarred from their experiences. Nobody's really talking about it much, but those kids come back ****ed up in the head.

But man, being a strong nation isn't always free healthcare, homes for all who want them, and food on the table even if you've not worked for it. Having those things means some serious ****ing sacrifice. I'm damn thankful I've not had to engage in that sacrifice personally, but I'm not ready to start castigating the methods of those on the cutting edge.

Sorry. I meant to only do two sentences and it ended up a rant.

It is okay as long as it is them and not us that are being tortured, right?

I mean confessions by way of hooking up battery cables to testicles seems to prove highly effective in illiciting a response.

If some people are verklempt, it may be because 1) we don't want our brave men and women serving overseas, if ever captured, to be subjected to the same torture, 2) the whole they-did-it-first doesn't seem like a good enough reason, 3) I believe that even military experts have said that there is not much to gain from torturing enemy combatants and 4) some US people are afraid of the natural progression from War on Terror and War on Drugs to effectively turn into the War on the Geneva Convention and eventually War on the Bill of Rights.

yermom

12/22/2009, 05:11 PM

does it say anywhere that they asked the US for permission to do this? how much control do we have over the Israelis?

and yeah Veritas, in 200+ years we've done some ugly things. we've also signed treaties and stuff since then saying we wouldn't do some things, expecting the same courtesy in return. we've executed war criminals for doing this kinda stuff in the last 60 or so years.

i still think Israel was a mistake anyway...

Red October

12/22/2009, 05:32 PM

I still say torture is too good for some of those radical whoevers who are out there destroying peoples lives. If we have to torture a few people who are truly evil, then so be it. The so called torture they recieve is probably nothing compared to the peoples lives they destroyed..

There are murderers, rapists, child abusers here in the US who should be tortured IMO..

Sorry, I guess I am heartless soul with no sympathy for humanity according to my vegan nephew... (wink)

olevetonahill

12/22/2009, 07:00 PM

I find it funny that people get all verklempt about US forces engaging in torture, talking how we're better than that as a nation or how we need to set a higher standard or whatever. Those are usually the arguments.

As though torture is something in which we've only engaged within this decade. As though we were so much better as a nation during for the first 224 years and we just lost our **** during the last nine.

History, unfortunately, doesn't really line up that way. Our armed forces have had to so some things that they found morally repugnant to defend the country. This includes torture and will this will continue to be the case regardless of whether it's officially sanctioned or not.

I find it disgusting that we have to kill people, including innocent civilians, to protect the country. It's horrid that we have young men come back from Iraq and Afghanistan mentally scarred from their experiences. Nobody's really talking about it much, but those kids come back ****ed up in the head.

See this thread ,http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138427

But man, being a strong nation isn't always free healthcare, homes for all who want them, and food on the table even if you've not worked for it. Having those things means some serious ****ing sacrifice. I'm damn thankful I've not had to engage in that sacrifice personally, but I'm not ready to start castigating the methods of those on the cutting edge.

Sorry. I meant to only do two sentences and it ended up a rant.

Read that thread I linked

olevetonahill

12/22/2009, 07:07 PM

Chuck Bao

12/22/2009, 07:44 PM

Chuck , Yermom

Lets say YOU are In a fight with the enemy ok ?
You Both are In battle .
Yer gettin fire from several positions , But you dont know where the enemy supply line is. You're Squad Members are Dying as you try to Figure this out .
Ya cant . But suddenly You Capture an enemy combatant .

Now remember YOU"RE Men are Dying as you have this POW. To Stop them from Dyin all you have to do is Cut off the supply line . This POW Knows where the Line is .
What do you do ?

When Yer azz and Yer fellow Mens Lives are on the line Ya think a lil differently than if Yer sittin in front of a ****ing Puter drinkin a cold one
jes sayin

I'm surprised by your comment, Olevet. So, you are saying that the Geneva Convention is all wrong and no matter the means, the end justifies it. Torture anyone we capture from the other side and drop all pretenses. Is that right? Sorry that I am posting this from a computer and not from any combat experience. I indeed understand your point of view and fully respect and appreciate your sacrifices to this country. I just don't understand how if the Geneva Convention worked for our grandfathers, how it is so broke down now. Yeah, maybe I'm just completely naive.

OUHOMER

12/22/2009, 07:52 PM

I just don't understand how if the Geneva Convention worked for our grandfathers, how it is so broke down now. Yeah, maybe I'm just completely naive.

It worked for our grandfathers, or should I say was never reported because they did not have the press following their every move. Unlike today where there is a reporter with every soldier on both sides of the fight.

Torture was not invented in the last 20 years.

JohnnyMack

12/22/2009, 07:53 PM

I'm surprised by your comment, Olevet. So, you are saying that the Geneva Convention is all wrong and no matter the means, the end justifies it. Torture anyone we capture from the other side and drop all pretenses. Is that right? Sorry that I am posting this from a computer and not from any combat experience. I indeed understand your point of view and fully respect and appreciate your sacrifices to this country. I just don't understand how if the Geneva Convention worked for our grandfathers, how it is so broke down now. Yeah, maybe I'm just completely naive.

Not much of a surprise that we as a nation have struggled mightily to win any significant military conflicts since the post WWII implementation of the Geneva convention.

Wars aren't fought on battlefields anymore. They're fought in the court of public opinion.

yermom

12/22/2009, 08:05 PM

surely you see a difference between WWII and Vietnam or Iraq strategically

i don't think WWII was much of a picnic either... but at least there was a definition of when it was over

yermom

12/22/2009, 08:14 PM

Chuck , Yermom

Lets say YOU are In a fight with the enemy ok ?
You Both are In battle .
Yer gettin fire from several positions , But you dont know where the enemy supply line is. You're Squad Members are Dying as you try to Figure this out .
Ya cant . But suddenly You Capture an enemy combatant .

Now remember YOU"RE Men are Dying as you have this POW. To Stop them from Dyin all you have to do is Cut off the supply line . This POW Knows where the Line is .
What do you do ?

When Yer azz and Yer fellow Mens Lives are on the line Ya think a lil differently than if Yer sittin in front of a ****ing Puter drinkin a cold one
jes sayin

that's a little different than torturing a POW off the battlefield. and i don't think you are asking the President for permission in that case. it's not like they are talking about some extenuating circumstances, it's state sponsored torture

SoonerBorn68

12/22/2009, 08:21 PM

I figure, we treat them as they treat us.

SoonerBorn68

12/22/2009, 08:22 PM

Besides in WWII the common German/Japanese soldier didn't have strategic info like today's terrorists do.

I'm sure high value prisoners in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc., were given "special" treatment behind closed doors.

OUHOMER

12/22/2009, 08:23 PM

olevetonahill

12/22/2009, 08:26 PM

I'm surprised by your comment, Olevet. So, you are saying that the Geneva Convention is all wrong and no matter the means, the end justifies it. Torture anyone we capture from the other side and drop all pretenses. Is that right? Sorry that I am posting this from a computer and not from any combat experience. I indeed understand your point of view and fully respect and appreciate your sacrifices to this country. I just don't understand how if the Geneva Convention worked for our grandfathers, how it is so broke down now. Yeah, maybe I'm just completely naive.

In this you are bro
The Geneva Con. was set up for Rules in a war against Other nations Military . Not Terrorists .
Yall show me ONE ****in terrorist that abides by the Geneva Con.

You Capture a Miltary POW you are Bound by the Rules . These assclowns do not wear a Uniform . Much like the VC

olevetonahill

12/22/2009, 08:29 PM

AlbqSooner

12/22/2009, 08:39 PM

Chuck Bao

12/22/2009, 09:01 PM

In this you are bro
The Geneva Con. was set up for Rules in a war against Other nations Military . Not Terrorists .
Yall show me ONE ****in terrorist that abides by the Geneva Con.

You Capture a Miltary POW you are Bound by the Rules . These assclowns do not wear a Uniform . Much like the VC

That is fair and a respectable comment. So, the Geneva Convention is dead and no longer applies and hasn't really applied since WWII. That's a pity and I do hope we extract ourselves out of our two foreign wars as soon as possible for the sake of our fine men and women that are fighting for ideals that are completely lost on the battleground. God bless our troops.

Chuck Bao

12/22/2009, 09:12 PM

These discussions are interesting to say the least. I have found that when I am driving and I stop to ask for information about the road ahead I tend to give more credence to the information I get from the guy who has actually driven that road than the guy who has merely viewed a map and postulated.

Vet has driven the road. I have to listen to him. Those of you who say you would never do those kinds of things don't seem to realize that you have not been on that road and do not really know what you would do.

You got that right. On the other hand, our own civil liberties shouldn't be threatened by terrorism. Tell me who has been down that road in the fight of terrorism? Many countries actually have and the US has been relatively immune. In many countries the military has been used against its own people instead of any external threats. I think that our old way of thinking is probably not relevant anymore. But, what should we be thinking? I don't know. I'm asking.

JohnnyMack

12/22/2009, 09:55 PM

surely you see a difference between WWII and Vietnam or Iraq strategically

i don't think WWII was much of a picnic either... but at least there was a definition of when it was over

Strategically speaking victory in vietnam was simple. It wasn't about troops, it was about bombs. We could have levelled the north at any point. Why didn't we?

Chuck Bao

12/22/2009, 10:24 PM

Strategically speaking victory in vietnam was simple. It wasn't about troops, it was about bombs. We could have levelled the north at any point. Why didn't we?

Funny that you should ask that question. Why don't we plant a few hundred, awww what the hell a few thousand nuclear bombs in Iraq and Afganistan and then just leave it There is no point of some silly half-assed bombing.

The real problem would be in finding employment for our layed-off troops and the economic nightmare for our military contractors.

StoopTroup

12/22/2009, 10:39 PM

I think 9-11-01 was a day where many Americans took a long hard look at how terrorists could change our lives. They may not have run a jet into a building with one of your Family members...but they would if they could.

If I thought for one minute that some guy was planning to do it again on an airplane I was riding on....I'd torture him to find out who the others on the flight were if I was an Air Marshall.

olevetonahill

12/22/2009, 10:43 PM

Strategically speaking victory in vietnam was simple. It wasn't about troops, it was about bombs. We could have levelled the north at any point. Why didn't we?

At one point we had enough troops on the Ground to Line Up on the Southern tip and March North .

WE Dont LEVEL any country because there are Innocent Civilians
Chuck No One Knows the answers, The Wars Have Changed ,
But in My honest O Id rather see our Troops Drawing Unemployment , Than Getting Killed

olevetonahill

12/22/2009, 10:52 PM

To Be clear , I dont support Torture In a wholesale Manner
But some of Yall need to get a ****in clue

It is sometimes warranted .

Will a Totally Innocent person suffer ? Not Likely :cool:

Chuck Bao

12/22/2009, 11:16 PM

alright, I'm still surprised. You now seem to be in favor of the local Popos torturing people if it is warranted. Obviously innocent people wouldn't be affected. Not likely.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

12/23/2009, 12:17 AM

Now you have a problem with torture?

You're such a buffoon.Sounds as if Tuba has more of a problem with the democrat hypocracy than he does with torture. Isn't that what you got from his comments?

Veritas

12/23/2009, 12:25 AM

It is okay as long as it is them and not us that are being tortured, right?

I mean confessions by way of hooking up battery cables to testicles seems to prove highly effective in illiciting a response.

If some people are verklempt, it may be because 1) we don't want our brave men and women serving overseas, if ever captured, to be subjected to the same torture, 2) the whole they-did-it-first doesn't seem like a good enough reason, 3) I believe that even military experts have said that there is not much to gain from torturing enemy combatants and 4) some US people are afraid of the natural progression from War on Terror and War on Drugs to effectively turn into the War on the Geneva Convention and eventually War on the Bill of Rights.
1) Except our servicemen have rarely been extended quid pro quo. The Geneva Convention sure as hell didn't stop the Japanese, the Koreans, the Chicoms, the NVA, the VC, the Somalis, the Afghanis, the Iraqis, Al Quaida, the Serbs, etc etc ad naseum.
2) That's not my argument.
3) This is definitely true. Torture is a highly ineffective method of interrogation.
4) **** man, the war on the Bill of Rights started a long time ago.

If some terrorist delivers information under duress of physical pain and it saves American lives, then I'm thankful to the people that will have to live with the nightmares of being a torturer.

yermom

12/23/2009, 12:37 AM

your conclusion and #3 don't seem to match

olevetonahill

12/23/2009, 01:37 AM

alright, I'm still surprised. You now seem to be in favor of the local Popos torturing people if it is warranted. Obviously innocent people wouldn't be affected. Not likely.

your conclusion and #3 don't seem to match

Dont take it to the extreme ok ?

In a WAR Civil Liberties dissolve

Ever hear the Old saw ? "Alls Fair in Love and WAR "

What you two fail to realize is that , This is NOT just a Legal PoPo stop fer running a ****in Red Light .

Most and By MOST I mean every one of these arseholes
Have been caught trying to KILL our troops or our Peeps

They HAVE NOT SIGNED THE GENEVA CONVENTION TREATY .

They just want to **** us up any way they can .
:pop:

Chuck Bao

12/23/2009, 04:29 AM

Dont take it to the extreme ok ?

In a WAR Civil Liberties dissolve

Ever hear the Old saw ? "Alls Fair in Love and WAR "

What you two fail to realize is that , This is NOT just a Legal PoPo stop fer running a ****in Red Light .

Most and By MOST I mean every one of these arseholes
Have been caught trying to KILL our troops or our Peeps

They HAVE NOT SIGNED THE GENEVA CONVENTION TREATY .

They just want to **** us up any way they can .
:pop:

I guess I watch too much Thai TV. Thai Popos make the suspect re-enact the crime and they invite all the TV stations to film and broadcast it in the nightly news. Thai TV stations love that sort of **** with pics of a bloody and mutilated corpse. There is no regard to the family of the victim. Of course, Thai popos are never wrong and there is no way that an innocent could be forced, even with torture, to re-enact a crime they didn't commit, so it is a slam dunk in court.

I think my point is that you can get people to admit to almost anything with torture. If their acting isn't convincing enough, they will introduce a fresh pair of jumper cables and a new car battery.

StoopTroup

12/23/2009, 09:07 AM

Lets say you caught this guy who has planted a nuclear bomb somewhere in 16 major city and says they are all going to go off at noon today.

Do you...

1) Read him his rights and tell him he can have an attorney appointed should he need one?

2) Pass on it as he's probably just a bat **** crazy **** stirrer with terrorist ties.

3) Start with pulling out his finger nails followed by smashing his toes with a ball pein hammer and a couple of hours of water boarding?

4) Just evacuate the Cities like GWB did New Orleans.

JohnnyMack

12/23/2009, 09:23 AM

At one point we had enough troops on the Ground to Line Up on the Southern tip and March North .

WE Dont LEVEL any country because there are Innocent Civilians
Chuck No One Knows the answers, The Wars Have Changed ,
But in My honest O Id rather see our Troops Drawing Unemployment , Than Getting Killed

And my point is that we did level cities before the geneva convention. And we did win wars.

StoopTroup

12/23/2009, 09:39 AM

I like how folks always talk about how we can blow up the earth and how we shouldn't have that kind of power and yet...those mountains in Afghanistan are still there after we've bombed the carp out of them.

Some folks just need to get a grip.

If we hadn't leveled Hiroshima and Nagasaki we would have buried many more soldiers. I'm not sure we shouldn't level a City in North Korea soon if that whack jobs successors think that the World so going to put up with much more from them.