Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are more egocentric than estimates of other peo

[Fraggle145]

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/12/01/0908374106.abstract


Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are more egocentric than estimates of other people's beliefs

Nicholas Epley (a, 1), Benjamin A. Converse (a), Alexa Delbosc (b), George A. Monteleone (c), and John T. Cacioppo (c)

Author Affiliations:
(a) Booth School of Business, 5807 South Woodlawn Avenue, University of Chicago, Chicago, IL, 60637;

(b) Institute of Transport Studies, Monash University, Melbourne 3800, Australia; and

(c) Department of Psychology, 5848 South University Avenue, University of Chicago, Chicago, IL 60637

Edited by Edward E. Smith, Columbia University, New York, NY, and approved October 21, 2009 (received for review July 27, 2009)

Abstract

People often reason egocentrically about others' beliefs, using their own beliefs as an inductive guide. Correlational, experimental, and neuroimaging evidence suggests that people may be even more egocentric when reasoning about a religious agent's beliefs (e.g., God). In both nationally representative and more local samples, people's own beliefs on important social and ethical issues were consistently correlated more strongly with estimates of God's beliefs than with estimates of other people's beliefs (Studies 1–4). Manipulating people's beliefs similarly influenced estimates of God's beliefs but did not as consistently influence estimates of other people's beliefs (Studies 5 and 6). A final neuroimaging study demonstrated a clear convergence in neural activity when reasoning about one's own beliefs and God's beliefs, but clear divergences when reasoning about another person's beliefs (Study 7). In particular, reasoning about God's beliefs activated areas associated with self-referential thinking more so than did reasoning about another person's beliefs. Believers commonly use inferences about God's beliefs as a moral compass, but that compass appears especially dependent on one's own existing beliefs.

Key Words: decision making, judgment, religion, social cognition, social neuroscience

1. To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: [email protected]


I just thought that this would be interesting given the recent Billboard thread and the my religion thread thread.

You can download the .pdf from the website if you want to go through all of the results.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Wow. People go through life believing God's on their side? Is this another shovel-ready stimulus project.

[picasso]

It's really easy to find out the Christian way. It just takes prayer and invitation.

Life is hard but it must really be hard to live it without God.

[Fraggle145]

Wow. People go through life believing God's on their side? Is this another shovel-ready stimulus project.

No, it is saying that people attribute their personal beliefs as what god believes.

Essentially, whatever you do, say, etc... what you think god thinks of it is what you already think about it.

[NormanPride]

And the fact that there are tons of believers out there that are self-centered and use faith for their own means is news? I mean, really.

[Boarder]

That seems pretty logical, but kind of redundant. If you are a theist, your worldview would reflect what you thought your god's view would want it to be. It seems almost like a chicken/egg argument. Do people adjust their belief system to their god or do they make their god into what they believe?

I would expect that in most instances. Ask a Greenpeace member what their beliefs are and what Greenpeace believes and they should line up much better than non-Greenpeace members.

[JohnnyMack]

No, it is saying that people attribute their personal beliefs as what god believes.

Essentially, whatever you do, say, etc... what you think god thinks of it is what you already think about it.

The other day my sister posted on FB about how her husband left for work later than normal for some odd reason. As he was leaving he noticed the neighbors 4 year old daughter had wandered out of her house and was walking down the sidewalk. He stopped and steered her back home, much to her Mother's relief who was feverishly looking for her. My sister asked something to the effect of how wonderful it was that God had made it possible for her husband to look out for that little girl. Of course my immediate reaction was, "where the hell was God when she wandered off in the first place, taking a dump?"

[NormanPride]

The other day my sister posted on FB about how her husband left for work later than normal for some odd reason. As he was leaving he noticed the neighbors 4 year old daughter had wandered out of her house and was walking down the sidewalk. He stopped and steered her back home, much to her Mother's relief who was feverishly looking for her. My sister asked something to the effect of how wonderful it was that God had made it possible for her husband to look out for that little girl. Of course my immediate reaction was, "where the hell was God when she wandered off in the first place, taking a dump?"

I can't quick reply to this thread, so I'll just call you a doodie-face and then bow out. I'm lazy.

[Boarder]

The other day my sister posted on FB about how her husband left for work later than normal for some odd reason. As he was leaving he noticed the neighbors 4 year old daughter had wandered out of her house and was walking down the sidewalk. He stopped and steered her back home, much to her Mother's relief who was feverishly looking for her. My sister asked something to the effect of how wonderful it was that God had made it possible for her husband to look out for that little girl. Of course my immediate reaction was, "where the hell was God when she wandered off in the first place, taking a dump?"
God set the whole thing up as a character building exercise for your sister, her husband, the child, you, sf.com readers, etc. He was watching over the child at all times.


Heathen

[C&CDean]

The other day my sister posted on FB about how her husband left for work later than normal for some odd reason. As he was leaving he noticed the neighbors 4 year old daughter had wandered out of her house and was walking down the sidewalk. He stopped and steered her back home, much to her Mother's relief who was feverishly looking for her. My sister asked something to the effect of how wonderful it was that God had made it possible for her husband to look out for that little girl. Of course my immediate reaction was, "where the hell was God when she wandered off in the first place, taking a dump?"

sigh

[Partial Qualifier]

In particular, reasoning about God's beliefs activated areas associated with self-referential thinking more so than did reasoning about another person's beliefs.

Could it be that the people studied have accepted God's "beliefs" (traditionally religious ideals) and incorporated them into their own lives? And most religious people I know don't view "God" as "another person".

That's what the Bible, Torah, Koran, etc. tell you to do....Adopt or incorporate it's ideals into your own belief system. Right?

[47straight]

That's an interesting article. I think that americans, being very individualistic, might take almost any authority (science, law, religion, etc.) and frame it according to their own goals or viewpoint.

At it's best, I think religion should challenge you to be a better person, not just make you feel good about what you have done/who you are. Certainly, a person needs to have a general sense of confidence and self-worth. It seems that's not lacking in our society, though. Well, maybe an *authentic* sense of confidence and self-worth is lacking.

[Chuck Bao]

Capitalism has certainty permeated religious beliefs across the world and the religious spectrum.

I was watching the History Channel last night about the seven deadly sins and this episode was on the deadly sin of sloth. Yeah, I should have been working on my stock market strategy report instead of playing the couch potato. Anyway, that was an interesting look at the history of religious thought and they basically redefined sloth as despair. I bring it up because it seems to be a key issue in the current rightwing political Christian movement - “get up off your *** and work”.

I have to agree with those sentiments, but it doesn’t make it any more Christian in my way of thinking. The History Channel program also mentioned despair or depression and how modern medical science is figuring out that depression is sometimes due to a chemical imbalance in the brain and not some demon possession as was thought during the Middle Ages. Life was tenuous back then. Maybe life is tenuous right now. The demons are in the excuses.

I missed the episode on the deadly sin of greed.

The whole idea of God wants you to be rich fascinates me. There are so many Christian churches that are basically country clubs. I mean like the major donors get the props and respect. They want to hear a sermon that greed is good and that, in my opinion, is taking the faith a whole different direction and with it many people’s attitudes.

I would very much like to be Buddhist but for their implied respect for the rich as being born in better circumstances because of previous life sanctity. You can rob, steal, cheat as much as possible and none of that rubs off on your kids that get the full benefit of a religious belief of being born in a better life.

No, I don’t hate rich people. There should be some motivation that greed is good. I am just not so certain that it jives completely with a religious view. I would be interested in seeing others’ ideas.

[adoniijahsooner]

Capitalism has certainty permeated religious beliefs across the world and the religious spectrum.

I was watching the History Channel last night about the seven deadly sins and this episode was on the deadly sin of sloth. Yeah, I should have been working on my stock market strategy report instead of playing the couch potato. Anyway, that was an interesting look at the history of religious thought and they basically redefined sloth as despair. I bring it up because it seems to be a key issue in the current rightwing political Christian movement - “get up off your *** and work”.

I have to agree with those sentiments, but it doesn’t make it any more Christian in my way of thinking. The History Channel program also mentioned despair or depression and how modern medical science is figuring out that depression is sometimes due to a chemical imbalance in the brain and not some demon possession as was thought during the Middle Ages. Life was tenuous back then. Maybe life is tenuous right now. The demons are in the excuses.

I missed the episode on the deadly sin of greed.

The whole idea of God wants you to be rich fascinates me. There are so many Christian churches that are basically country clubs. I mean like the major donors get the props and respect. They want to hear a sermon that greed is good and that, in my opinion, is taking the faith a whole different direction and with it many people’s attitudes.

I would very much like to be Buddhist but for their implied respect for the rich as being born in better circumstances because of previous life sanctity. You can rob, steal, cheat as much as possible and none of that rubs off on your kids that get the full benefit of a religious belief of being born in a better life.

No, I don’t hate rich people. There should be some motivation that greed is good. I am just not so certain that it jives completely with a religious view. I would be interested in seeing others’ ideas.

The Bible stresses that we share, not only that, but I am about to quote a scripture that may make the anti-socialists head explode.


Act 4:32-35
And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

Even though the bible says that those who will not work shouldnt eat, it also says that we should give hoping for nothing in return, and that if someone ask for your coat, then give him your cloak also. In light of that article someone would have to make God's view become subject to their own if they are choosing to be selfish and not help someone in need. Interesting.

[soonerhubs]

Looks like a well-developed study, though the causality statement on page 4 seemed a bit stronger than I'm comfortable placing on non-experimental data. Kudos on the mixed methods approach, but I have to ask if there were ways of accounting for covariates regarding internet availability in study 4.

I think the study provides insight into human nature, and I'm sure you'd find similar patterns of thought processes and manipulation regarding what religion one takes on (i.e., Buddhism, Islam, etc.), but that would be for a further study. To take the role of devil's advocate, (no pun intended) I might suggest that there are belief systems that atheists and agnostics take on that would follow a similar pattern as well.

I may be taking on too much of a reductionist's perspective, but IMHO this just looks like an another way of getting at our nature to follow things that confirm our biases. As a religious person myself, I'd suggest that God already knows this. :D

Thanks for posting the link. I'd like to hear other opinions regarding the theoretical foundations and methodology choices made for this study, but I won't be taking the time to do that myself. I've got a blog to write, a class's papers to grade, and then some final grades to enter into the system. Maybe next week.

[AggieTool]

As long as well all agree that what I believe god wants us to do is the correct way.:D

[Veritas]

The other day my sister posted on FB about how her husband left for work later than normal for some odd reason. As he was leaving he noticed the neighbors 4 year old daughter had wandered out of her house and was walking down the sidewalk. He stopped and steered her back home, much to her Mother's relief who was feverishly looking for her. My sister asked something to the effect of how wonderful it was that God had made it possible for her husband to look out for that little girl. Of course my immediate reaction was, "where the hell was God when she wandered off in the first place, taking a dump?"
FWIW that would be my exact reaction as well. I get super tired of Christians shoe-horning God into situations where only the only thing that puts him there is axiomatic circular logic. What about the cases where the little girl gets hit by a car or picked up by a kiddie rapist? Did God make it possible for Chester the Molester to be trolling the 'hood?

Christians devalue God when they make him a magic fairy.

[adoniijahsooner]

FWIW that would be my exact reaction as well. I get super tired of Christians shoe-horning God into situations where only the only thing that puts him there is axiomatic circular logic. What about the cases where the little girl gets hit by a car or picked up by a kiddie rapist? Did God make it possible for Chester the Molester to be trolling the 'hood?

Christians devalue God when they make him a magic fairy.

I agree. When you look at the killing of male children in Herod's day; if you were honest with yourself you would have theological issues trying to explain that away.

[Partial Qualifier]

The Bible stresses that we share, not only that, but I am about to quote a scripture that may make the anti-socialists head explode.



Even though the bible says that those who will not work shouldnt eat, it also says that we should give hoping for nothing in return, and that if someone ask for your coat, then give him your cloak also. In light of that article someone would have to make God's view become subject to their own if they are choosing to be selfish and not help someone in need. Interesting.

Not really. Ultimately it should be up to individuals whether or not they share, i.e. not a mandate from the federal government. :D

[adoniijahsooner]

Not really. Ultimately it should be up to individuals whether or not they share, i.e. not a mandate from the federal government. :D

I understand that is from the private sector, but I do see a principle that should cause problems for "christians" who think getting and hoarding are good christian practices.

[Partial Qualifier]

I understand that is from the private sector, but I do see a principle that should cause problems for "christians" who think getting and hoarding are good christian practices.

Oh those folks are definitely not being true to their religion. They're T-Shirt Christians. ;)

[adoniijahsooner]

Oh those folks are definitely not being true to their religion. They're T-Shirt Christians. ;)

"Jesus is my homeboy, and you still cant have a piece of my chicken! Get a job you broke sluggard. If he blessed me, hell bless you too. I rebuke poverty in your life, I rebuke you spirit of poverty; Come Out!!! Oh, hold on. Honey you mind turning over the ribs on the grill? Praise God!"

[Partial Qualifier]

:D

[JohnnyMack]

Christians devalue God when they make him a magic fairy.

Humans have personified their deities for thousands of years. Long before Christianity was ever devised, cultures were making their gods out to be like them, it helped them try and understand their place on the earth in a more resonant way.

I think that's why if I was ever to subscribe to an organized religion it would likely be Buddhism. It's the religion that makes the most sense to me. It's an intensely personal journey at self improvement. To me American, suburban Christianity has become an absolute trainwreck. I still contend that if there was a Jesus and he came to America today he'd been none too thrilled. Then he'd go to Carmel, CA, smoke a doob and chill.

[OUMallen]

Cool Breeze, this is what happens when you post a scientific study with nuanced differences involved in the reasoning. HAPPY NOW?!?!

[adoniijahsooner]

Humans have personified their deities for thousands of years. Long before Christianity was ever devised, cultures were making their gods out to be like them, it helped them try and understand their place on the earth in a more resonant way.

I think that's why if I was ever to subscribe to an organized religion it would likely be Buddhism. It's the religion that makes the most sense to me. It's an intensely personal journey at self improvement. To me American, suburban Christianity has become an absolute trainwreck. I still contend that if there was a Jesus and he came to America today he'd been none too thrilled. Then he'd go to Carmel, CA, smoke a doob and chill.

True.

[Veritas]

To me American, suburban Christianity has become an absolute trainwreck. I still contend that if there was a Jesus and he came to America today he'd been none too thrilled. Then he'd go to Carmel, CA, smoke a doob and chill.
****in' A right.

I don't know what the right religion is, but I'm confident that at least for me, American Christianity isn't it.

On a side note, don't know if you're this way, Mack, but most atheists I know have a stronger cognition of the God they don't believe in than I have of the one I do.

[FaninAma]

FWIW that would be my exact reaction as well. I get super tired of Christians shoe-horning God into situations where only the only thing that puts him there is axiomatic circular logic. What about the cases where the little girl gets hit by a car or picked up by a kiddie rapist? Did God make it possible for Chester the Molester to be trolling the 'hood?

Christians devalue God when they make him a magic fairy.

I agree. If you give God credit for good things you also have to
assign blame for the bad things that happen to people.

We cannot see the end result of all things that happen but
I would expect that an omnipotent God would recognize
we humans are limited by the level of insight we have been
given.

If God wants me to accept all the things I see that
happen to people without doubts or questioning His
purpose then he should have given me super-human
abilities to grasp the hidden purposes of His actions.....
If there are any.

[FaninAma]

I will disagree with the premise that you can lead
a life totally devoid of worship. It is impossible. If
a deity isn't at the center of your worship/devotion
then it is something else you believe in........money,
children, power, having a good time .....whatever it
is that motivates you to act.

[JohnnyMack]

On a side note, don't know if you're this way, Mack, but most atheists I know have a stronger cognition of the God they don't believe in than I have of the one I do.

I don't try to be one of those people who's singular focus as an Atheist is to bash Christianity. I've met a lot of those types of Atheists and I don't care for them. My belief system has evolved over time, just like all of ours does. I was raised Methodist, but as I grew older and started applying both history and science to not only Christianity, but all religions. For me personally, religion has failed both the historical and scientific litmus test. Now I still think that metaphorically speaking Christianity and the Bible offer some profound insight and a solid roadmap for how one can lead a morally straightforward life. I'd like to think that I still incorporate some of the things I learned from my VBS and Bible study days into how I live my life today. It's just that I don't happen to believe in the whole heaven, hell and fall of man, white bearded man sitting on a cloud passing down judgment on me.

One thing that I think gets misinterpreted about Atheists (specifically myself) is that since I'm not religious that I have no spirituality. I don't happen to think that organized religion and spirituality are mutually exclusive. I also don't think the same thing of morality and religion. I can be a spiritual, moral person who simply doesn't buy into the supernatural constructs of religion. I think I've said this before but I do believe Jesus was the son of God. However I also believe that you and I are the son of God and that for me, the closest thing I can translate into "God" is our planet.

[Sooner24]

I don't try to be one of those people who's singular focus as an Atheist is to bash Christianity. I've met a lot of those types of Atheists and I don't care for them. My belief system has evolved over time, just like all of ours does. I was raised Methodist, but as I grew older and started applying both history and science to not only Christianity, but all religions. For me personally, religion has failed both the historical and scientific litmus test. Now I still think that metaphorically speaking Christianity and the Bible offer some profound insight and a solid roadmap for how one can lead a morally straightforward life. I'd like to think that I still incorporate some of the things I learned from my VBS and Bible study days into how I live my life today. It's just that I don't happen to believe in the whole heaven, hell and fall of man, white bearded man sitting on a cloud passing down judgment on me.

One thing that I think gets misinterpreted about Atheists (specifically myself) is that since I'm not religious that I have no spirituality. I don't happen to think that organized religion and spirituality are mutually exclusive. I also don't think the same thing of morality and religion. I can be a spiritual, moral person who simply doesn't buy into the supernatural constructs of religion. I think I've said this before but I do believe Jesus was the son of God. However I also believe that you and I are the son of God and that for me, the closest thing I can translate into "God" is our planet.

You have a pretty good start at it.

[Fraggle145]

Best religion thread ever. ;)

[JohnnyMack]

You have a pretty good start at it.

I suppose if me talking openly and honestly about my beliefs irritates you I can't really do anything about that. I'm not someone who sits around and tells people who are Christians that I think they're idiots. I'm simply giving some insight as to where my beliefs originated. If you can't handle dialogue coming from someone who doesn't agree with you that's your shortcoming.

[Sooner24]

I suppose if me talking openly and honestly about my beliefs irritates you I can't really do anything about that. I'm not someone who sits around and tells people who are Christians that I think they're idiots. I'm simply giving some insight as to where my beliefs originated. If you can't handle dialogue coming from someone who doesn't agree with you that's your shortcoming.

It doesn't irritate me but it sure seems that's all you want to talk about. Seems you're the one that's worried about it.

[soonerhubs]

No one is concerned about the methodology applied in these studies? Sheesh... :D

I was also going to ask if people thought these same propositions could be applied to people who follow political leaders like Bush, Clinton, Obama, or even Al Gore. For instance, my egocentric perspective of how Al thinks I should take out my garbage is key. :D

[Ardmore_Sooner]

What's not to say this data isn't fudged like in the "Global warming" data?

That's what I thought! :D

[olevetonahill]

So basically, Folks take Reality and bend it to suit their own purpose?
Got cha