Amanda Knox convicted in Italian courts

[King Barry's Back]

She gets 25 years and $7.5 million.

I am not here to argue her guilt or innocence, but be aware that in the States, no case this thin would even have come to trial.

As a person who spends a good deal of time in Italy, this outcome is very alarming.

I hope that American students considering studying in Europe are taking a lesson from this -- You are not in the United States. You don't have any Constitutional rights, and you better take seriously the cultural sensitivities of the place you are calling home for a few months.

[proud gonzo]

whaa?

[SicEmBaylor]

She gets 25 years and $7.5 million.

I am not here to argue her guilt or innocence, but be aware that in the States, no case this thin would even have come to trial.

As a person who spends a good deal of time in Italy, this outcome is very alarming.

I hope that American students considering studying in Europe are taking a lesson from this -- You are not in the United States. You don't have any Constitutional rights, and you better take seriously the cultural sensitivities of the place you are calling home for a few months.

Yep. Every time I hear a bunch of giggly teenage-20'something girls talk about how "romantic" Europe is and how badly they want to study abroad, I snicker. I enjoyed my short visits to Europe but you couldn't pay me enough to live there. I like it just fine right here in the USA and my constitutional protections.

In fact, every time I visit a different European city, I try to find out where the nearest American embassy or consulate is in case I need to get the **** out of there in a hurry.

Euro trash -- the entire continent is full of them.

[Okla-homey]

She gets 25 years and $7.5 million.

I am not here to argue her guilt or innocence, but be aware that in the States, no case this thin would even have come to trial.

As a person who spends a good deal of time in Italy, this outcome is very alarming.

I hope that American students considering studying in Europe are taking a lesson from this -- You are not in the United States. You don't have any Constitutional rights, and you better take seriously the cultural sensitivities of the place you are calling home for a few months.

OTOH, the UK and Ireland are relatively free of kangaroo courts and you would be afforded most of the rights we have here if charged with a crime. Therefore, confine your drugged-up, drunken and violent multi-partner sex play to those two countries if at all possible while across the Atlantic.

[Frozen Sooner]

I thought the argument went that non-citizens weren't afforded constitutional protections anyhow...

[Okla-homey]

I thought the argument went that non-citizens weren't afforded constitutional protections anyhow...

Try to keep up.

Enemy combatants captured on overseas battlefields should not be afforded constitutional protections.

Cf. Non citizens arrested and charged with crimes committed inside the US do have the same rights as citizens.

[Frozen Sooner]

Try to keep up.

Enemy combatants captured on overseas battlefields should not be afforded constitutional protections.

Cf. Non citizens arrested and charged with crimes committed inside the US do have the same rights as citizens.

You know Homey, perhaps you should try to keep up.

A couple of years ago, the Righties were yelling all over the place about how illegal aliens did not deserve constitutional protections because they weren't citizens.

The cases are somewhat distinguishable as one is in the country legally and one is not. However, the central argument was "non-citizens are not afforded Constitutional protections."

I recognize this more than a couple of days ago, but if you think real hard you can probably remember this. It's actually not a matter of keeping up. It's a matter of keeping track of Newspeak.

[Curly Bill]

So...this Amanda Knox person was an illegal alien living in Italy?

Got it!

[Frozen Sooner]

So...this Amanda Knox person was an illegal alien living in Italy?

Got it!



The cases are somewhat distinguishable as one is in the country legally and one is not. However, the central argument was "non-citizens are not afforded Constitutional protections."


To coin a phrase, "try to keep up."

[Curly Bill]

So, you threw the illegal alien thing out there for what purpose?

[Frozen Sooner]

Because the argument was that protection under the Constitution was reserved for citizens. Which was a silly argument to begin with.

However, under that logic, even if Italy had a Constitution affording the same rights as the US Constitution, Knox wouldn't have protection under it.

Of course, if it was similar to ours, then she would.

She definitely got railroaded, though.

[Curly Bill]

Because the argument was that protection under the Constitution was reserved for citizens. Which was a silly argument to begin with.

I don't remember the argument being framed as such, I remember the argument being that illegals don't deserve constitutional protections.

Now, a Japanese tourist (here legally) that happens to do something wrong should be afforded those protections.

[StoopTroup]

Or...you could act responsibility and do a little homework prior to visiting a Country and not treat it like your visiting Cancun on Spring Break.

[Curly Bill]

Or...you could act responsibility and do a little homework prior to visiting a Country and not treat it like your visiting Cancun on Spring Break.

pfffft! :D

[StoopTroup]

pfffft! :D

I know....that's why I've only been to Ireland and England....lol :pop:

[StoopTroup]

Also....

Anyone hear how Anita Koch is doing these days?

[Curly Bill]

I know....that's why I've only been to Ireland and England....lol :pop:

I read somewhere that there's lots of drugged up, drunken, multi-partner sex goes on there.


Road trip!

[Frozen Sooner]

I don't remember the argument being framed as such, I remember the argument being that illegals don't deserve constitutional protections.
http://volokh.com/posts/1235007104.shtml

Volokh's a pretty well-respected libertarian-leaning blog.

[StoopTroup]

I read somewhere that there's lots of drugged up, drunken, multi-partner sex goes on there.


Road trip!

ERIN GO BRAUGH ! ! ! :pop:

[Curly Bill]

http://volokh.com/posts/1235007104.shtml

Volokh's a pretty well-respected libertarian-leaning blog.


Ima read this later.

Right now I gots to go.

[Frozen Sooner]

Have fun doing whatever. :D

[King Barry's Back]

You know Homey, perhaps you should try to keep up.

A couple of years ago, the Righties were yelling all over the place about how illegal aliens did not deserve constitutional protections because they weren't citizens.

The cases are somewhat distinguishable as one is in the country legally and one is not. However, the central argument was "non-citizens are not afforded Constitutional protections."

I recognize this more than a couple of days ago, but if you think real hard you can probably remember this. It's actually not a matter of keeping up. It's a matter of keeping track of Newspeak.

Don't like to jump in a thread w/o reading all the way through, as someone else may have already answered my point, but what I want to inject here is that rights of non-citizens in the US is not comparable to the rights on non-citizens in Italian courts. The point being, the Italians don't have any rights, either.

They are plagued by a corrupt judiciary and a court system designed to literally empty the pockets and dry out out the soul of any accused, while the lawyers and judges line their pockets. I know some smart alec will say that's how our system works, and I'll admit that American lawyers do make a lot of money, but the system in America is designed to protect the accused.

By the end of the year, I'll have spent over 2 months of 2009 in Italy, and frankly I don't have any reasonable concern that something bad would happen to me, but after this conviction the thought is never going to leave my head that something could.

Granted, I am not smoking pot and spending the night with men I've barely met -- but a wrong accusation could literally ruin your life. Amanda Knox learned that lesson too late.

This should be a serious wake up call to American college students. Believe me, I see them over here all the time. Europe is generally a more permissive society than the States, and drug laws are usually much more lax, but you better act responsibly because Europeans know that the American kids come over here and get drunk/high for three months, "sow their seeds" sexually with their new Euro friends, and guess what -- a lot of them do not think highly of us for sending our kids to behave that way. Especially in a very Catholic country like Italy.

In America, the court is supposed to judge the individual. In Italy, all that other stuff is fair game.

[Chuck Bao]

Ditto on KBB’s warnings to young (and older) people traveling or staying overseas.

I don’t know Italy but I do know Thailand. I cannot say how disappointed I am that the Thai justice system has not developed over the last 30-40 years, even with 4-5 new constitutions that we’ve seen over this period. I literally cannot say because any criticism of the courts will land a person in jail for contempt of court. My point here is that you do not want to have anything to do with justice Thai style.

The Thai “War on Drugs” under former and now exiled Prime Minister Thaksin Shinwatra was really a war and against the shocking spread of meth-amphetamines (in Thai language - Ya Ba or crazy pills). About 2,000 people were killed with shoot outs with the police in a two-year span (2002-2003). In one case, the “shoot out” involved five young men getting shot in the back of the head in a barn because they were reported to have been trying to flee police while handcuffed.

Using drugs in overseas countries is a very, very bad idea. Do not think that just because others are doing it, that it is okay. Would you want to pay blackmail money in lieu of an arrest? Would you want to call mom or dad for money to pay the “agent”. These people prey on tourists.

Know who you stay with and who you travel with. My best friend’s former girlfriend (French national) was a secret heroin addict. On a trip of a group of friends, she put all of us in serious danger when she smuggled vials of heroin into Burma and then back across the border into Thailand. Luckily, she wasn’t caught and I didn’t know about it until later.

Besides all that, Thailand is a pretty safe country and tourists are treated very well. Just don’t do anything that land you in trouble and don’t mix with the wrong crowd.

[StoopTroup]

Ditto on KBB’s warnings to young (and older) people traveling or staying overseas.

I don’t know Italy but I do know Thailand. I cannot say how disappointed I am that the Thai justice system has not developed over the last 30-40 years, even with 4-5 new constitutions that we’ve seen over this period. I literally cannot say because any criticism of the courts will land a person in jail for contempt of court. My point here is that you do not want to have anything to do with justice Thai style.

The Thai “War on Drugs” under former and now exiled Prime Minister Thaksin Shinwatra was really a war and against the shocking spread of meth-amphetamines (in Thai language - Ya Ba or crazy pills). About 2,000 people were killed with shoot outs with the police in a two-year span (2002-2003). In one case, the “shoot out” involved five young men getting shot in the back of the head in a barn because they were reported to have been trying to flee police while handcuffed.

Using drugs in overseas countries is a very, very bad idea. Do not think that just because others are doing it, that it is okay. Would you want to pay blackmail money in lieu of an arrest? Would you want to call mom or dad for money to pay the “agent”. These people prey on tourists.

Know who you stay with and who you travel with. My best friend’s former girlfriend (French national) was a secret heroin addict. On a trip of a group of friends, she put all of us in serious danger when she smuggled vials of heroin into Burma and then back across the border into Thailand. Luckily, she wasn’t caught and I didn’t know about it until later.

Besides all that, Thailand is a pretty safe country and tourists are treated very well. Just don’t do anything that land you in trouble and don’t mix with the wrong crowd.

I was with some folks who did that with Mary Jane once. They told me they were holding right before we went through Customs. I just about turned her in right there. I was so freaking mad. I made sure she was clean before we left.

Freaking Morons.

[Frozen Sooner]

Don't like to jump in a thread w/o reading all the way through, as someone else may have already answered my point, but what I want to inject here is that rights of non-citizens in the US is not comparable to the rights on non-citizens in Italian courts. The point being, the Italians don't have any rights, either.

They are plagued by a corrupt judiciary and a court system designed to literally empty the pockets and dry out out the soul of any accused, while the lawyers and judges line their pockets. I know some smart alec will say that's how our system works, and I'll admit that American lawyers do make a lot of money, but the system in America is designed to protect the accused.

By the end of the year, I'll have spent over 2 months of 2009 in Italy, and frankly I don't have any reasonable concern that something bad would happen to me, but after this conviction the thought is never going to leave my head that something could.

Granted, I am not smoking pot and spending the night with men I've barely met -- but a wrong accusation could literally ruin your life. Amanda Knox learned that lesson too late.

This should be a serious wake up call to American college students. Believe me, I see them over here all the time. Europe is generally a more permissive society than the States, and drug laws are usually much more lax, but you better act responsibly because Europeans know that the American kids come over here and get drunk/high for three months, "sow their seeds" sexually with their new Euro friends, and guess what -- a lot of them do not think highly of us for sending our kids to behave that way. Especially in a very Catholic country like Italy.

In America, the court is supposed to judge the individual. In Italy, all that other stuff is fair game.

I agree with everything you've said here. It's just plain good sense to know that other nations have different legal systems and protections. Even the ones that are liberal democracies don't have the same protections the US does.

[Okla-homey]

You know Homey, perhaps you should try to keep up.

A couple of years ago, the Righties were yelling all over the place about how illegal aliens did not deserve constitutional protections because they weren't citizens.

The cases are somewhat distinguishable as one is in the country legally and one is not. However, the central argument was "non-citizens are not afforded Constitutional protections."

I recognize this more than a couple of days ago, but if you think real hard you can probably remember this. It's actually not a matter of keeping up. It's a matter of keeping track of Newspeak.

I'm not sure how "Righties" collectively feel about the issue, but this "rightie" individually has long held; 1) illegals get all the benefits of the constitution if arrested and charged with a crime in the US; 2) we're not getting rid of them anyway because there isn't sufficient national will to do so - and we need them here to do the work natives won't do, and; 3) we need to figure out a way to get them on the tax rolls without using the "amnesty" word which would make a lot of folks political heads explode.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Also....

Anyone hear how Anita Koch is doing these days?

I heard she's staying in a condo with her good friend Sharon Peters.

[picasso]

The fact that jury can read the papers, tabloids and watch the tellie is enough hogwash for me.

[Frozen Sooner]

I'm not sure how "Righties" collectively feel about the issue, but this "rightie" individually has long held; 1) illegals get all the benefits of the constitution if arrested and charged with a crime in the US; 2) we're not getting rid of them anyway because there isn't sufficient national will to do so - and we need them here to do the work natives won't do, and; 3) we need to figure out a way to get them on the tax rolls without using the "amnesty" word which would make a lot of folks political heads explode.

Which is why my original post wasn't "Well, Homey doesn't think non-citizens should have Constitutional rights."

It goes back to where rights come from: are they inherent (or alternately bestowed by a Creator) or are they granted by the government? If you believe the first, then rights (not privileges, such as voting) are afforded to everyone. If you believe the second, then we can pick and choose who gets them.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

She definitely got railroaded, though.

That Prosecutor sounds like a nut job with his satanic and sexual conspiracies. The Italian media formented this. After 7 months of trial, if I was a juror, I would vote to convict just to get it over...

[Partial Qualifier]

I wonder how Amanda Knox would've been treated and which rights she would've been afforded had she *not* stabbed her roommate to death?

:gary:

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I was with some folks who did that with Mary Jane once. They told me they were holding right before we went through Customs. I just about turned her in right there. I was so freaking mad. I made sure she was clean before we left.

Freaking Morons.

Just watch "Locked Up Abroad" on Nat Geo or some such...It will change your view of travel forever. People in the U.S. are extremely spoiled with the notion of "innocent until provien guilty" in most places it is guilty until proven or bought innocence.

[Okla-homey]

There is some hope for her.

Evidently, Eyetalian appellate courts generally re-try the case, unlike US appellate courts which generally only check to make sure the trial court judge did'nt goof-up on a point of law...a/k/a make a "reversible error" in lawyer-speak.

That said, her folks have gone broke having already dropped about a million bucks on her defense, thus, they'll need to find the money to hire Italian counsel to pursue the appeal.

[TUSooner]

Can someone tell me in 25 words or less how they can be sure that Amanda Cox was "railroaded"? I know essentially nothing of the case, but I'm curious as to how you can tell that the verdict is so obviously wrong. I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

[JohnnyMack]

Can someone tell me in 25 words or less how they can be sure that Amanda Cox was "railroaded"? I know essentially nothing of the case, but I'm curious as to how you can tell that the verdict is so obviously wrong. I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

Well you see, when a man loves a woman, or in this case, does some ecstasy...

I got nuthin'.

[NormanPride]

After reading the Wiki and a couple articles, it sounds like the media made it a circus, and the prosecution was spouting details of the case to the public.

Personally, the one dude, Guido or whatever, is guilty as hell. The other two... not sure. I think Knox was involved and probably did some bad ****, then hid at her boyfriend's, who didn't know what to do.

[Oldnslo]

Or...you could act responsibility and do a little homework prior to visiting a Country and not treat it like your visiting Cancun on Spring Break.

um... isn't cancun in another country?

I know: I should try to keep up.

[Okla-homey]

Can someone tell me in 25 words or less how they can be sure that Amanda Cox was "railroaded"? I know essentially nothing of the case, but I'm curious as to how you can tell that the verdict is so obviously wrong. I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

Here's 44: None of her DNA on or about the body. Bloody handprint on the wall that wasn't hers or the victims. Knife wounds and cuts on victims' clothing didn't match any knife to which she had access or control. I think that about sums it up.

[picasso]

After reading the Wiki and a couple articles, it sounds like the media made it a circus, and the prosecution was spouting details of the case to the public.

Personally, the one dude, Guido or whatever, is guilty as hell. The other two... not sure. I think Knox was involved and probably did some bad ****, then hid at her boyfriend's, who didn't know what to do.

Don't use Wikipedia for your sole form of research.

[King Barry's Back]

Can someone tell me in 25 words or less how they can be sure that Amanda Cox was "railroaded"? I know essentially nothing of the case, but I'm curious as to how you can tell that the verdict is so obviously wrong. I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

She got convicted basically because she talked too much on the night of her arrest. She was interrogated for 41 hours, was surrounded by 6-8 people who verbally and physically abused and intimidated her. They spoke to her in Italian (which she did not speak at the time) and broken English, so who knows what she thought they were asking or what she was really trying to say. She had no lawyer present. She was apparently asked to imagine what might have happened in the home the night of the killing, and gave some of her thoughts, and that "imagining" has been strongly used against her. It has been claimed that the imagined events were her "confession," and from what I can tell the "fact" that she confessed is what got her convicted.

For what it's worth, the courts "threw out" the "confession" as there was no lawyer and no interpreter present -- both of which are required. Nonetheless, the prosecution was still able to refer to the "confession", and quote it, throughout the trial. The trial ended with the "confession" being shown to the jury on a big-screen TV. (Aside: WTF does "thrown out" mean in an Italian courtroom?)

Summary of the physical evidence: A spot of Amanda's boyfriend's DNA on a bra clasp found next to the murder victim's bed. (The only physical evidence linking either to the crime scene.) FACT: The bra clasp laid on the floor of the bedroom for SIX WEEKS before ever being collected by the police. In the meantime, dozens of police, reporters, judges, etc paraded through the house. Evidenciary items were picked up, handled w/o gloves, and laid back down. (Documented on video.) When the press asked the prosecutor if he was concerned that the physical evidence had been mishandled by the police (who are not trained in this stuff like American police are), he responded "It's not my job to prove the evidence was collected properly. It's the defense's job to prove it was not."

The police collected a knife from the kitchen drawer of Amanda's boyfriend. They say it contained DNA from the boyfriend and from the murder victim, and argued in court that it was the "murder weapon." The knife could not have been the murder weapon, because it does not match the wounds on the victim's body. And is it very likely that after stabbing someone to death during an impassioned sex game, that you would slide the knife in your pocket, take it home, and put it back in the drawer?

There were some footprints in blood in the house that the police say belonged to the boyfriend, but he was in the house the morning after the murder, and they don't look very definite to me. More like smears, but from what I remember, nothing from Amanda.

That's about all the physical evidence they have.

The "theory" of the crime -- that Amanda Knox was a drug-crazed and sex-starved American she-devil bent on self-destructive and violent sex-games -- was made up whole cloth by the prosecutor (who is on trial himself for abuse of power for making up such theories in other cases). There is no evidence from the scene that these people were even present during the murder, much less in the same room playing games. There is no evidence of sexual assault on the body, or sex acts, on the body.

Nothing in the background or testimony from any witnesses or anybody that ever knew Amanda Knox, from what I can tell, has ever described her as violent or sexually aggressive in any way.

Up front, I believe that Amanda Knox is completely innocent. But that's an opinion.

The FACTS are that there is only very minimal evidence linking her (or her boyfriend) to the crime scene. There is no evidence of violent or sexually aggressive behavior on the part of either. And there is no other known or suggested motive for the killing.

In US courts, there would never have been a trial -- at least not until a much stronger case could be built. But in Italy, people will be convicted to avoid embarrassing the prosecutor, that's just the way it is.

Again, the real reason she was arrested is that she was a foreigner (and an American at that!) in a conservative Catholic country. She had only been there four months or so, and was already on her second or third boyfriend. She freely abused drugs, and drank heavily while there.

This is EXTREMELY common behavior for American tourists, especially college kids. After decades of watching American tourists come to there country, smoke, get drunk, stumble home, get drugged up and seduce their sons and daughters -- this behavior finally caught up to somebody. Honestly, if they wanted to lock her up for three or four years for drug abuse, I think that's more than acceptable, but you just shouldn't ruin someone's life and convict them of murder for having too much inappropriate fun.

BACKGROUND: My father-in-law is currently in the Italian courts. My FIL's neighbor, who is kind of crazy and is in the process of suing everyone in the (very) small town, has filed suit against him for slander. The neighbor claims that my FIL called him a "dumb ***" or something like that (I believe this was in connection with the spate of lawsuits the neighbor was filing.) This case has been in the courts now for three years, with years more to run before a verdict is delivered. I can't imagine how terrible it would be to be caught up in that Italian courts system.

[TUSooner]

She got convicted basically because she talked too much on the night of her arrest. She was interrogated for 41 hours, was surrounded by 6-8.....[etc.]
That was such a good explanation that I excuse your exceeding the word limit.
Spek to you and Homey too.


Oh yeah: GOD BLESS THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION. All of you who bitch about people "getting off on technicalities" should understand that those "technicalities" are nothing less than the nuts and bolts of YOUR fundamental right to FAIR TREATMENT at the hands of the state and federal gub'ments.

[SicEmBaylor]

That was such a good explanation that I excuse your exceeding the word limit.
Spek to you and Homey too.


Oh yeah: GOD BLESS THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION. All of you who bitch about people "getting off on technicalities" should understand that those "techicalities" are nothing less than the nuts and bolts of YOUR fundamental right to FAIR TREATMENT at the hands of the state and federal gub'ments.

Yep. It's pretty well taken for granted that you don't have to worry about being arrested or rounded up by the authorities without a pretty damned good reason. You go down to Mexico and you can get your *** arrested just because you're an American tourist with money and your only way out is a bribe. That's some f'ed up ****.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Eff Mexico and eff the Italians.

We should invade both of 'em. That'll show 'em!

[NormanPride]

We don't invade, fireman. We police. ;)

[TMcGee86]

America.


**** Yeah.

[FaninAma]

BACKGROUND: My father-in-law is currently in the Italian courts. My FIL's neighbor, who is kind of crazy and is in the process of suing everyone in the (very) small town, has filed suit against him for slander. The neighbor claims that my FIL called him a "dumb ***" or something like that (I believe this was in connection with the spate of lawsuits the neighbor was filing.) This case has been in the courts now for three years, with years more to run before a verdict is delivered. I can't imagine how terrible it would be to be caught up in that Italian courts system.

And this differs from the US how?

[King Barry's Back]

And this differs from the US how?

In the US, if you try to sue a neighbor for calling you a dumbass, the case will be thrown out at the first opportunity. Not seven years of hearings later.

I am sorry if I didn't clarify, but the point was that it will take seven years to resolve a case of one neighbor says "I want money because he called me a dumbass," and the other says "I didn't call him a dumbass."

If the Italians take seven years to resolve such a simple case, really, what can you expect from them in terms of justice?