My religion thread

[BOOMERBRADLEY]

All are free to comment. I have several topics because I have been thinking a lot lately.

Here we go...

I grew up in Oklahoma and went to church every Sunday morning, night and Wednesday nights. I never was comfortable going for some reason. I was told (not by my parents) that I would go to hell if I didn't go to church whenever the doors were opened. I did learn a lot about being a good person. Things like honesty, cheating, stealing etc...However my parents taught me those things as well. So I guess this is where the story starts to turn.

I continued going to church all the way through high school and never did anything bad. When I started college I, like millions of other freshman students, felt a huge sense of independence. Mom and Dad weren't around to tell me what to do anymore. I went to parties, got it on with a lot of girls, drank A LOT, and basically felt like I was on top of the world. I wondered what I was doing? Am I doing the wrong things? Am I going to hell because of all this stuff I was doing? Did I care all that much at the time? Not really...

So here I am now. 27 years old. Corporate world, steady girlfriend, thankfully disease free. And my spiritual life is non existent and I really don't care. I feel no empty spot in my soul for some reason. I still feel like I am the same person that I was while I was going to church. I still believe in God. I believe in Jesus. I have no idea if he was God's son or not but he sure has affected hundreds of millions of lives for the better. I guess I feel a guilt just because of the way I was raised going to church. I was meant to serve God at all times and go to church all the time. Can I accomplish that without going to church? I have no idea...

I feel I live a better life than a lot of Christians do. I don't lie, cheat or steal. I am one of the nicest people you could ever meet and I am very generous. A lot of highly religious people are very condescending and judgmental. Do you think that is the way God would want his creations to act? Are they going to Heaven and me Hell because they went to church all the time and acted however they felt the rest of the time. Some of the finest people I have ever known never went to church. I don't think it's a person's right to judge a person based on attendance.

I believe in evolution 100%. I also believe in God. Can these two co-exist? I think so. God created something and gave it the ability to adapt and transform. To me that is beautiful and it takes nothing away from God's work. Did he make something kind of like a human? Yes, the really hairy things on the discovery channel "Ardy" I think so. Maybe he made several and only one survived? I look around the Earth and I see beauty and art. With art there has to be an Artist. God is that artist. Evolution is part of that art for me.

Has anyone gone through this same phase in their life?

[A Sooner in Texas]

I'm twice your age and feel very much as you do. My parents took us to church when we were young, then when we got to high school it was pretty much "eh." I was very active in Youth for Christ in HS and enjoyed going to church with my friends; also sang in two Christian groups. I'm sure at times my other friends - I had a real eclectic group of friends - thought I was a real pain in the ***.
I go to college and an ultra-conservative Christian group comes on campus to witness. I think, "Great!" and meet with them. I discovered how very intolerant they were (the woman must always be submissive, that sort of thing) and it really pissed me off. It turned me off religion.
Like you, I believe in God very much, and I love what Jesus taught. Don't know, like you, is he is really the son of God, but he taught pure, unconditional love and forgiveness. To say that evolution goes against God is, to me, saying that man knows exactly what God's plan is. We don't.
This is going to sound weird, but I believe life on other planets is possible. Not saying I believe it's there. But to say it's not possible is to limit God, I think.
How anyone can look around at all the beauty in the world and think there is no God is incomprehensible to me.

[SoonerBorn68]

All are free to comment. I have several topics because I have been thinking a lot lately.

Here we go...

I grew up in Oklahoma and went to church every Sunday morning, night and Wednesday nights. I never was comfortable going for some reason. I was told (not by my parents) that I would go to hell if I didn't go to church whenever the doors were opened. I did learn a lot about being a good person. Things like honesty, cheating, stealing etc...However my parents taught me those things as well. So I guess this is where the story starts to turn.

I continued going to church all the way through high school and never did anything bad. When I started college I, like millions of other freshman students, felt a huge sense of independence. Mom and Dad weren't around to tell me what to do anymore. I went to parties, got it on with a lot of girls, drank A LOT, and basically felt like I was on top of the world. I wondered what I was doing? Am I doing the wrong things? Am I going to hell because of all this stuff I was doing? Did I care all that much at the time? Not really...

So here I am now. 27 years old. Corporate world, steady girlfriend, thankfully disease free. And my spiritual life is non existent and I really don't care. I feel no empty spot in my soul for some reason. I still feel like I am the same person that I was while I was going to church. I still believe in God. I believe in Jesus. I have no idea if he was God's son or not but he sure has affected hundreds of millions of lives for the better. I guess I feel a guilt just because of the way I was raised going to church. I was meant to serve God at all times and go to church all the time. Can I accomplish that without going to church? I have no idea...

I feel I live a better life than a lot of Christians do. I don't lie, cheat or steal. I am one of the nicest people you could ever meet and I am very generous. A lot of highly religious people are very condescending and judgmental. Do you think that is the way God would want his creations to act? Are they going to Heaven and me Hell because they went to church all the time and acted however they felt the rest of the time. Some of the finest people I have ever known never went to church. I don't think it's a person's right to judge a person based on attendance.

I believe in evolution 100%. I also believe in God. Can these two co-exist? I think so. God created something and gave it the ability to adapt and transform. To me that is beautiful and it takes nothing away from God's work. Did he make something kind of like a human? Yes, the really hairy things on the discovery channel "Ardy" I think so. Maybe he made several and only one survived? I look around the Earth and I see beauty and art. With art there has to be an Artist. God is that artist. Evolution is part of that art for me.

Has anyone gone through this same phase in their life?

I went through the exact same thing. I'm still living it to some degree. I think it's part of your Christian walk. As I've gotten older (I'm a man +1) I've witnessed personally some guidance from the Almighty, albeit not the direction I wanted & even resisted. He's brought me to the brink but he's never let me fall.

It's OK to question. I'm guessing it's manditory.

[olevetonahill]

Just Live yer life to be the best you can be .
I wasn't raised in church.
Became a preacher
then became an agnostic

Just enjoy what you have

[GottaHavePride]

I remember going to Sunday School once. I don't remember anything about it, but I remember that I went once. I think I was 4. I believe the lesson they taught that day was something about jealousy, greed, etc. being little monsters that live inside of people.

Now, I know I took things pretty literally when I was a kid. According to my mom, when I got in the car afterward I said something along the lines of "Those people are crazy. There aren't any monsters living inside me." And I never went back.

These days I don't go to church unless I'm being paid to make music there. (OK, notable exceptions for friends' weddings and such.)

[Collier11]

All are free to comment. I have several topics because I have been thinking a lot lately.

Here we go...

I grew up in Oklahoma and went to church every Sunday morning, night and Wednesday nights. I never was comfortable going for some reason. I was told (not by my parents) that I would go to hell if I didn't go to church

^ That is the biggest crock and I am always saddened when parents or people of influence say that. Sure it is great to go but it in no way determines your fate in Heaven or Hell
whenever the doors were opened. I did learn a lot about being a good person. Things like honesty, cheating, stealing etc...However my parents taught me those things as well. So I guess this is where the story starts to turn.

I continued going to church all the way through high school and never did anything bad. When I started college I, like millions of other freshman students, felt a huge sense of independence. Mom and Dad weren't around to tell me what to do anymore. I went to parties, got it on with a lot of girls, drank A LOT, and basically felt like I was on top of the world. I wondered what I was doing? Am I doing the wrong things? Am I going to hell because of all this stuff I was doing? Did I care all that much at the time? Not really...

Its callled having a conscience, I went through the same stuff in college and still have the same feelings now, it typically means you are a good person IMO and that you care

So here I am now. 27 years old. Corporate world, steady girlfriend, thankfully disease free. And my spiritual life is non existent and I really don't care. I feel no empty spot in my soul for some reason. I still feel like I am the same person that I was while I was going to church. I still believe in God. I believe in Jesus. I have no idea if he was God's son or not but he sure has affected hundreds of millions of lives for the better. I guess I feel a guilt just because of the way I was raised going to church. I was meant to serve God at all times and go to church all the time. Can I accomplish that without going to church? I have no idea...

I am 28 and alot of your issues and stories mirror mine, I am a lover of Christ, I know I am going to Heaven but I often struggle with selfishness and laziness in my faith. It sounds like you are luke warm as in, you know you should be doing things differently but you are comfortable not doing them. Luke warm is the wrong path to take, the saying goes something like "you are either ice cold or on fire, dont be luke warm". I feel like I am a good person, a good Christian, but I also feel like I get in my own way at times with my selfishness and laziness and I know I could be a lot stronger in my faith and the way I lead my life

I feel I live a better life than a lot of Christians do. I don't lie, cheat or steal. I am one of the nicest people you could ever meet and I am very generous.

It should never be a comparison or a battle from either side IMHO

A lot of highly religious people are very condescending and judgmental. Do you think that is the way God would want his creations to act? Are they going to Heaven and me Hell because they went to church all the time and acted however they felt the rest of the time. Some of the finest people I have ever known never went to church. I don't think it's a person's right to judge a person based on attendance.

Church doesnt determine going to Heaven, having faith in God and believing in God as the savior and asking for forgiveness, that is what gets you to Heaven. God doesnt ask you to be perfect, he asks you to try to be and when you fail simply ask to be forgiven. Yes it really is that simple. Try not to get caught up in the battle of trying to be a better person than the next guy, just be a better person because you want to be

I believe in evolution 100%. I also believe in God. Can these two co-exist? I think so. God created something and gave it the ability to adapt and transform. To me that is beautiful and it takes nothing away from God's work. Did he make something kind of like a human? Yes, the really hairy things on the discovery channel "Ardy" I think so. Maybe he made several and only one survived? I look around the Earth and I see beauty and art. With art there has to be an Artist. God is that artist. Evolution is part of that art for me.

I think those who battle out Creationism and Evolution arent seeing the big picture, I fully believe Evolution is possible but I see it as a part of Gods plans. Of course Earth and Humans and animals and plants, etc... Evolve, I just dont think they do so independent from God and I dont see why they have to be seperate

Has anyone gone through this same phase in their life?

Everyone does bro, some for diff reasons. It seems like you have a good heart and you know what the right thing to do is. For me, going to Church is about learning and about feeling good, My faith is about getting to Heaven. Always trust in the Lord, even when it doesnt seem like he is there or your life is on track or bad things are happening, just have Faith and trust that he will take care of you!

If you have any questions feel free to PM me and I will do my best to answer them.

[CORNholio]

Like others my expieriences mirror yours, but I have a different opinion. By cutting it of and saying I am a good person and that is all that really matters I believe you are cutting off the source. No man is good on his own. It comes from somewhere. Church is to say thanks for the good. Just because its filled with pharisees (sp?) Doesn't take away from that. Not judging u. I should listen to my own advice too.

[AlbqSooner]

The process being described here is that of developing from the beliefs your parents told you that you had to the beliefs that you have. By living your life, to the extent a human being can, in a Christ like fashion you are a good man or woman. By not spending time in prayer and meditation you deprive yourself of the fellowship of God. I got to the point that, although I believed in God, I figured that He didn't really matter in my life. If He was looking for me it was to fry my sorry arse for some of the carp I had done. Through a set of circumstances with which I will not bore you, I came back to spending time in prayer and meditation. My life is much more rewarding now. I thank God every day that he is a God of mercy and grace and not a God of justice. Due to some parts of my life, I want no part of God's justice. I believe what the Bible says about Christ forgiving my sins.
This is just my take. I will not condemn ANYONE for their beliefs or non-beliefs.

[adoniijahsooner]

Wow! I was at work tonite and considered making a thread with this same topic. I am just now coming out of this spiritual sleep, and it is not without some resistance on my part; But what keeps me from throwing in the towel are the scriptures I read about God's grace. "He delights in mercy", "His mercy endures forever", "They are new every morning", "all that come unto me I will in no wise cast out", and "He hath said, I will never leave you nor forsake you".

For me, there are too many answers to the questions I had in my mind, to believe He isnt real. Now as far as religion and organized church is concerned, I have nothing to do with that. Too many schisms, cliques, and creeds to try and rummage through in order to find anything worthwhile. I believe that a great many christians would remain such if it were not for denominations and traditions.

Lastly, the bible does not hide the flaws in the human heart. People only know about David killing Bathsheba's husband and trying to cover it up; but fail to mention the killing of men, women, and children in certain villages, to cover up his work for the philistines. Or how Samson told another woman before Delilah a secret he should have kept to himself, or how Peter, even after Jesus ascended still tried to deny being affliated with the christian gentiles because he was afraid of the Jews, again a mistake repeated by someone who believed in God. Imperfections set against the backdrop of truth and I am grateful it's there in the book.

Anyway I know I am long winded, but what I am trying to say is, even though I stopped walking with Him, I believed that he never once threw His hands up, or gave me facepalm, but was yearning and watching over me in my evil times just as much as he was in my blessed times.

[85Sooner]

Churches today are not the same as churches back when.

[TUSooner]

The process being described here is that of developing from the beliefs your parents told you that you had to the beliefs that you have. By living your life, to the extent a human being can, in a Christ like fashion you are a good man or woman.... I came back to spending time in prayer and meditation. My life is much more rewarding now. I thank God every day that he is a God of mercy and grace and not a God of justice....
I will not condemn ANYONE for their beliefs or non-beliefs.

I'm pretty much where Albq is. And I was once where BoomerBradley is, cruising in the prime of life. Eventually, I had to think about things, to decide if some things had more meaning than others, to decide how to deal with bad things, with fear and things I could not help. On my way to near 53 years, I struggled with whether the religion of my parents was or is really mine. Ironically, a Zen class in college, taught by a Jesuit, helped me be a Christian. It helped me cut through a lot of crap to see what's what, and to understand what this Jesus was really talking about. I also learned that Jesus is very persistent !

Here are 2 passages that explain to me the difference between being "religious" and being a Christian (my bold, of course):


‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord”, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?” Then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.”
I can't help but think of a stereotypical filthy-rich, howling, judgmental, fear-stoking, TV evangelist when I read that.


But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

I'm afraid I can't think of too many people, Christian or otherwise, who really live this humble way. But there are some, and they are the saints of the world. I try, sometimes I manage it briefly, sometimes I pretend to try, often I fail or forget to try or even give into hatred (for a time). That's why grace and mercy are so awesomely sweet, wherever and whenever they are shown, because we have an idea of Where they come from.

This also sticks in my mind: "When you see a man doing good, study him; when you see a man doing evil, study yourself."

[crawfish]

I hear what you're saying. I grew up in a pretty legalistic church, and battling those old tendencies has caused a few crises of faith in my life. However, I have gone the opposite way and accepted the grace-filled view of Christ that the bible truly teaches. I am a pretty good person as well, but being a Christian makes me a better person, one who focuses more on others than on self.

I also fully accept evolutionary theory and feel that it doesn't conflict with the message of scripture taken historically literal (that is, as literal from the perspective of the original author - 21st century literal is another matter altogether).

It is important to understand about Christianity that its salvation is NOT about "how good you are". It is about accepting Christ and living in faith. This is a good thing, as we are all on different playing fields as far as "good" is concerned due to our genetics and upbringing. That being said, I do think it is our responsibility to be as good a person as we can be because we are representatives of Christ.

[XFollower]

It's not about church or how good you live, it's about a relationship with Christ. Having that relationship is most important, but how you nurture that relationship makes all the difference. If I value my wife, spend quality time with her, and put a lot of focus on her, guess what, my marriage is good and healthy. If I don't, the rewards can be few and the burdens are great. To me it's the same with my relationship with Christ. I attend church to grow and learn, not to judge or be judged or to determine my eternal outcome, that's determined by my acceptance of his gift. I study and pray not to better my chances, but because I believe God knows best. The more I know about him, the more I seek him, the more I nurture the relationship, the better my life will be. Truly, God has done way too much personally in my life to not follow him.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

And in the role of Doubting Thomas...

The Father was pretty straight forward when He said we will have no other gods before him. Then He turns around, chuckles a bit, sends His son to us and changes the rules. That in fact, the only way to Him is THROUGH the Son/God that He's placed before Him.

But as the Trinity, is that simply placing Him to get to Him? Or do the Jews have it right? Great guy. Wise teacher. Interesting perspective. Messiah? Nuh uh.

That is my conundrum. Faith does not answer this question remotely. Faith in Christ AGAINST that very straight forward Old Testament law? Faith in the Father who I can't get to because I should go through the Son? It smells funny. Something ain't right.

[Uncle Ernie]

I think the real question is when you shut the fridge does the little light stay on?

Cerealessly, tolerance via the Golden Rule should work. Treat people as you want to be treated.

Chinese proverb:
Teachers open the door but you must enter by yourself.

[47straight]

All are free to comment. I have several topics because I have been thinking a lot lately.

Here we go...

I grew up in Oklahoma and went to church every Sunday morning, night and Wednesday nights. I never was comfortable going for some reason. I was told (not by my parents) that I would go to hell if I didn't go to church whenever the doors were opened. I did learn a lot about being a good person. Things like honesty, cheating, stealing etc...However my parents taught me those things as well. So I guess this is where the story starts to turn.

I continued going to church all the way through high school and never did anything bad. When I started college I, like millions of other freshman students, felt a huge sense of independence. Mom and Dad weren't around to tell me what to do anymore. I went to parties, got it on with a lot of girls, drank A LOT, and basically felt like I was on top of the world. I wondered what I was doing? Am I doing the wrong things? Am I going to hell because of all this stuff I was doing? Did I care all that much at the time? Not really...

So here I am now. 27 years old. Corporate world, steady girlfriend, thankfully disease free. And my spiritual life is non existent and I really don't care. I feel no empty spot in my soul for some reason. I still feel like I am the same person that I was while I was going to church. I still believe in God. I believe in Jesus. I have no idea if he was God's son or not but he sure has affected hundreds of millions of lives for the better. I guess I feel a guilt just because of the way I was raised going to church. I was meant to serve God at all times and go to church all the time. Can I accomplish that without going to church? I have no idea...

I feel I live a better life than a lot of Christians do. I don't lie, cheat or steal. I am one of the nicest people you could ever meet and I am very generous. A lot of highly religious people are very condescending and judgmental. Do you think that is the way God would want his creations to act? Are they going to Heaven and me Hell because they went to church all the time and acted however they felt the rest of the time. Some of the finest people I have ever known never went to church. I don't think it's a person's right to judge a person based on attendance.

I believe in evolution 100%. I also believe in God. Can these two co-exist? I think so. God created something and gave it the ability to adapt and transform. To me that is beautiful and it takes nothing away from God's work. Did he make something kind of like a human? Yes, the really hairy things on the discovery channel "Ardy" I think so. Maybe he made several and only one survived? I look around the Earth and I see beauty and art. With art there has to be an Artist. God is that artist. Evolution is part of that art for me.

Has anyone gone through this same phase in their life?

I can totally tell that you are way more humble than those judgmental Christians you really showed up with your post.


;)

[Boarder]

I remember going to Sunday School once. I don't remember anything about it, but I remember that I went once. I think I was 4. I believe the lesson they taught that day was something about jealousy, greed, etc. being little monsters that live inside of people.

Now, I know I took things pretty literally when I was a kid. According to my mom, when I got in the car afterward I said something along the lines of "Those people are crazy. There aren't any monsters living inside me." And I never went back.

These days I don't go to church unless I'm being paid to make music there. (OK, notable exceptions for friends' weddings and such.)
Now how many other major life decisions do you base upon a one-time encounter when you were four?


:D

[StoopTroup]

If you believe in a higher power...then wasn't it the higher power that gave you the ability to believe in Evolution? I think it's OK to learn as much as you want about evolution...but I wouldn't put to much into it as the higher power might have screwed up some of your brain cells. :D ;)

[Veritas]

I'll third Adonijah and Boomer in saying I've though about starting a thread like this but have not for various reasons, mainly because the subject just isn't that important to me anymore (which in and of itself is pretty telling).

I grew up in the church. I went out of a sense of obligation/guilt/fear until about two years ago, while bored out of my mind during a service I thought, "seriously, if Jesus was real and this is what he was talking about, I'm out."

I've only gone to my folks-in-law's church since, which inside that timeframe saw a pastor leave after the elders failed to successfully cover up his affair, a subsequent split, and tons of other idiotic ****. I've lost count of the number of times I've said, "Man, I'm glad I'm not involved with a church."

So what am I? I'm an agnostic that leans in the general direction of Christianity due to a singular characteristic that differentiates it from all other religions, grace. It's a concept I don't really get but it's intriguing enough that I haven't written it all of just yet.

With respect to evolution and religion, I've just ordered this book:
"God's Mechanics: How Scientists and Engineers Make Sense of Religion" by a Jesuit priest who works in the Vatican Observatory, Brother Consolmagno. I'll post a thread when I read it.

[Scott D]

I just want to point out that all of you are going to hell anyway... :D

[starclassic tama]

i can't wait. 24/7 barbecue AND slayer's discography playing round the clock? count me in

[Scott D]

i can't wait. 24/7 barbecue AND slayer's discography playing round the clock? count me in

no you'll be stuck in a hotel room with Steve Allen and nothing but Maude reruns on the tee vee.

[Petro-Sooner]

i can't wait. 24/7 barbecue AND slayer's discography playing round the clock? count me in

Wow dude!

[TUSooner]

Go figure. This is probably the most thoughtful and civil thread on the SO in years, and it only has 21 posts.

EDIT: I stand corrected. 26 posts and fading fast!
:rolleyes:

:D

[Veritas]

i can't wait. 24/7 barbecue AND slayer's discography playing round the clock? count me in
Oh, if only.

Hell will be a Luby's Cafeteria with Barney singing the Tiptoe Through the Tulips...for eternity.

[Frozen Sooner]

Now how many other major life decisions do you base upon a one-time encounter when you were four?


:D

Well I, for one, now know that free candy is likely bull****.

[Boarder]

What about those candy dishes at the bank? Hmmm?

[Frozen Sooner]

Case in point. Where else do you get screwed quite as hard?

[Boarder]

Lawyer's Office

[Collier11]

very nice guys, cant leave one thread alone

[Pricetag]

My arrogance doesn't allow me to accept the fact that when this body dies, the lights just go out. What's the point, then? It leads me to believe that there is something afterward.

Something else I can't wrap my brain around? Eternal life. I know that the human brain is wired in a linear fashion, so I shouldn't be able to get it, but, seriously, what do you do with eternity? Would not boredom set in at some point? It wears you out--deep down inside we want to die, so everything has an end.

So many interesting things have happened over the course of history, and there are so many interesting places in this universe that we can't touch--I hope that if there is an afterlife, that we're allowed to travel space and time to get to experience all these things.

[Howzit]

I hope that if there is an afterlife, that we're allowed to travel space and time to get to experience all these things.

I hope I have x-ray vision.

[Collier11]

you will, but only on fat guys

[Howzit]

So, you're saying there is a hell...

[Collier11]

I hope you never have to find out :)

[PDXsooner]

My arrogance doesn't allow me to accept the fact that when this body dies, the lights just go out. What's the point, then? It leads me to believe that there is something afterward.

Something else I can't wrap my brain around? Eternal life. I know that the human brain is wired in a linear fashion, so I shouldn't be able to get it, but, seriously, what do you do with eternity? Would not boredom set in at some point? It wears you out--deep down inside we want to die, so everything has an end.

So many interesting things have happened over the course of history, and there are so many interesting places in this universe that we can't touch--I hope that if there is an afterlife, that we're allowed to travel space and time to get to experience all these things.

good post.

[yermom]

but what if it is just arrogance that causes us to believe something like that?

i mean, obviously, it can't be proven either way what happens after death, but when you start reading Einstein and talking about General Relativity, things seem to break down a bit

[Boarder]

you will, but only on fat guys
very nice guy, cant leave one thread alone


hehe

[Boarder]

but what if it is just arrogance that causes us to believe something like that?

i mean, obviously, it can't be proven either way what happens after death, but when you start reading Einstein and talking about General Relativity, things seem to break down a bit
Wondering "what if I'm wrong or not" is what spawns the Pascal's Wager discussions. These, in the simplified version you usually hear, are not good at all. Pascal's was a bit more detailed and is actually not all bad. He said that you're better off trying religion. You won't be fine immediately but Pascal thought that if you sincerely tried it for a while, you'd come around. (This is kind of the same thing the LDS church wants you to do by praying earnestly about the decision). For questions like these, I usually respond that the person, if in doubt, should try religion in an earnest and scholarly way (not in an "I went to the local megachurch and listened to what preacher Bob told me for an hour"). Weigh all options before deciding. And, talk to many, not just one. Make sure these that you talk to include people who have actually exited the Christian bubble at one time and can make an argument without saying, "because Preacher Bob told me so." This would be my advice if I were trying to make some one catch the athiesm, too.

[Pricetag]

the LDS church
Here's another thing that causes me to struggle with religion, the amount of prestige that a religion has based upon the amount of time that it has existed.

I reject the LDS as being part of "real" Christianity, mostly because it came to exist so close to now. Joseph Smith's writings of the angel Moroni, and the golden plates seem preposterous to me--not because it's any more out there than plenty of stuff that is in the Bible, but because it happened here and because it was written so recently.

Scientology is in the same boat. We all think it's ridiculous because we know that it was made up by a mediocre science fiction writer. But how will people feel about it in 200 years? What about 2,000?

[Collier11]

Joseph Smith hangs out with the scientologists in his afterlife I believe

[TopDawg]

Any of y'all seen The Invention of Lying?

[PDXsooner]

Here's another thing that causes me to struggle with religion, the amount of prestige that a religion has based upon the amount of time that it has existed.

I reject the LDS as being part of "real" Christianity, mostly because it came to exist so close to now. Joseph Smith's writings of the angel Moroni, and the golden plates seem preposterous to me--not because it's any more out there than plenty of stuff that is in the Bible, but because it happened here and because it was written so recently.

Scientology is in the same boat. We all think it's ridiculous because we know that it was made up by a mediocre science fiction writer. But how will people feel about it in 200 years? What about 2,000?

another good post...

[AggieTool]

Just remember that if there IS a god, he doesn't care what you do as long as yer a good person....






























































...and as long as you don't play with yerself.:D

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Huh? I can't hear you.

I've been going deaf ever since I started playing with myself.

[King Barry's Back]

Bradley,

Thanks for posting. I don't have time to read all the posts right now, but I will.

There were some good answers, so I'll try not to duplicate, but wanted to say something about church attendance.

Churches are human institutions, built, maintained and run by humans. And so, they all of the same imperfections that other human institutions experience. End of story. In my opinion, blaming "religion" for shortcomings experienced in a particular religious experience is a cop out.

That said, church attendance does not determine "heaven or hell." I see church attendance as a very important supplement to the life of a sincere Christian -- but a supplement.

I think it's meant to, on a weekly (or so) basis, strengthen the role of Christ in your life.

But there are other ways to do gain strength, so if the question is "Do I think a perfectly model Christian could avoid church-attendance altogether?" -- I answer "Yes."

[Scott D]

so church attending is kinda like taking steroids to beef up....gotcha. ;)

[JohnnyMack]

My arrogance doesn't allow me to accept the fact that when this body dies, the lights just go out. What's the point, then? It leads me to believe that there is something afterward.

Something else I can't wrap my brain around? Eternal life. I know that the human brain is wired in a linear fashion, so I shouldn't be able to get it, but, seriously, what do you do with eternity? Would not boredom set in at some point? It wears you out--deep down inside we want to die, so everything has an end.

So many interesting things have happened over the course of history, and there are so many interesting places in this universe that we can't touch--I hope that if there is an afterlife, that we're allowed to travel space and time to get to experience all these things.

Eternity transcends linear concepts like time and space. Boredom isn't something that one could associate with zen.

[MR2-Sooner86]

I remember I started a thread like this called Losing Faith (http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109968) and I'm still like that now. I believe in a god. With that said, I don't believe in a Christian, Jewish, Islamic, or whatever other religion there is. I believe there is something bigger than us. What is it? Who is it? I don't know.

Anyway, I was raised a Southern Baptist my entire life and stopped going towards the end of high school and all together once I hit college. I'll never ever go back.

Why? Well when you go to church all they do is give you the "good" things which are sugarcoated. Yes children know Noah built the ark but they skip stuff like...slavery, killing your children if they disobey, and other things. The small stuff ya know? Not to mention the whole "incest is wrong" yet Adam and Eve sure didn't have a problem with it. Don't forget Lot and his two daughters.
Don't even get me started on the whole "alcohol is evil and you'll go to Hell by drinking one beer" yet...Jesus drank wine...which has alcohol. :confused:

Finally though it was the people and the "holier than thou" attitude they have. For example my mother takes anti-depressants and the people at church told her if she "had a stronger faith in God she wouldn't need 'those mind drugs' for depression." She is now looked at in an "inferior" light because she takes Prozac.
Also, a youth pastor/music director wasn't given enough money (the secretary made more than him) because he had a divorce early in his life and the church didn't want to "condone that type of behavior."
The youth group exploded several years ago at the church I went to. The youth director really wanted to help kids in troubled homes and did all he could to help them. These kids were "different" in that they dyed their hair black, wore black clothes, or just had a 'rebellious' look to them. You get to talking with them and they were all good kids that loved to go to church to hang out with the youth director and attend his services. Well the people in the church didn't want "that type" of people there so they made the youth director leave, changed the youth services, and that caused all the kids to leave.
At another church in the town I live in, a 19 year old girl got pregnant so her parents made her get in front of the church and apologize for being a sinner, letting down the church, and having a child out of wedlock. It's funny because years ago her father didn't have to do a thing when he was caught with pot on a school field trip. Hmmmm
I could go on, and on, and on, and on, and on but I don't want to sit here and type all day long.

I have no problem with Christians. There's a few I know that are good down to earth people. They are a minority though. Most of them try to push their ideas onto you and can't practice what they preach (I'm talking about you Miss "Kyle come to Campus Crusades for Christ because...you need it" Yet I see her at all the parties I'm at...). When they start spewing their **** I tell them to take their Bible and shove it up their *** because I don't want to hear it.

[Howzit]

Eternity transcends linear concepts like time and space. Boredom isn't something that one could associate with zen.



A bitter morning: sparrows sitting together without any necks.

[adoniijahsooner]

I remember I started a thread like this called Losing Faith (http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109968) and I'm still like that now. I believe in a god. With that said, I don't believe in a Christian, Jewish, Islamic, or whatever other religion there is. I believe there is something bigger than us. What is it? Who is it? I don't know.

Anyway, I was raised a Southern Baptist my entire life and stopped going towards the end of high school and all together once I hit college. I'll never ever go back.

Why? Well when you go to church all they do is give you the "good" things which are sugarcoated. Yes children know Noah built the ark but they skip stuff like...slavery, killing your children if they disobey, and other things. The small stuff ya know? Not to mention the whole "incest is wrong" yet Adam and Eve sure didn't have a problem with it. Don't forget Lot and his two daughters.
Don't even get me started on the whole "alcohol is evil and you'll go to Hell by drinking one beer" yet...Jesus drank wine...which has alcohol. :confused:

Finally though it was the people and the "holier than thou" attitude they have. For example my mother takes anti-depressants and the people at church told her if she "had a stronger faith in God she wouldn't need 'those mind drugs' for depression." She is now looked at in an "inferior" light because she takes Prozac.
Also, a youth pastor/music director wasn't given enough money (the secretary made more than him) because he had a divorce early in his life and the church didn't want to "condone that type of behavior."
The youth group exploded several years ago at the church I went to. The youth director really wanted to help kids in troubled homes and did all he could to help them. These kids were "different" in that they dyed their hair black, wore black clothes, or just had a 'rebellious' look to them. You get to talking with them and they were all good kids that loved to go to church to hang out with the youth director and attend his services. Well the people in the church didn't want "that type" of people there so they made the youth director leave, changed the youth services, and that caused all the kids to leave.
At another church in the town I live in, a 19 year old girl got pregnant so her parents made her get in front of the church and apologize for being a sinner, letting down the church, and having a child out of wedlock. It's funny because years ago her father didn't have to do a thing when he was caught with pot on a school field trip. Hmmmm
I could go on, and on, and on, and on, and on but I don't want to sit here and type all day long.

I have no problem with Christians. There's a few I know that are good down to earth people. They are a minority though. Most of them try to push their ideas onto you and can't practice what they preach (I'm talking about you Miss "Kyle come to Campus Crusades for Christ because...you need it" Yet I see her at all the parties I'm at...). When they start spewing their **** I tell them to take their Bible and shove it up their *** because I don't want to hear it.

Everything you said is based on the behavior of the people, and not on a personal experience with God. There is absolutely no way in the world a slick talking atheist, agnostic, pagan, or christian hyprocrite should be able to destroy your faith or make you feel inferior. It has to be your faith and no one elses. The athiest arrives at his decision based on brain power and external evidence, but have they tried all that Jesus commanded them? I will guess no. It's like when Jesus told the Rich young ruler to sell his possessions and give to the poor. He walked away sorrowful and realized how truly selfish his heart was. Jesus didnt not ask him for money, he did not try and manipulate the man, nor did he tell him to stop drinking, smoking, having sex, or anything else people use as measurements for a proper christian life. He basically said "follow me". All the talking and arguing in the world will never persuade someone who is determined to follow only their own interest. But YOU and YOUR responsibility is to "follow him".

What does that mean? He was in prison and we visited him not. He was hungry and cold, and we did not feed. Naked and we did not clothe him. A stranger and we welcomed him not. When did this happen we ask? When we didnt do it to the least of of his children. You see, what he says doesnt take a back seat because everyone else are hyprocrites, unloving, and judgmental.

"What if some did not believe? Shall there unbelief make the faith of God of none effect? God forbid; yea, let God be true and every man a liar." Your mother is precious to God and He loves her with the same passion that he loves the "Elite".

[Scott D]

Or more importantly, some people feel they can be *******s and hide behind 'religion and the church' instead of just being upfront about being *******s in the first place.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Everything you said is based on the behavior of the people, and not on a personal experience with God.

It was not just people. I also talked about how reading the Bible things are skipped over that they don't talk about in church. There's many things that are just...messed up. A personal experience with God? If the Bible is the word of God....:pop:


Or more importantly, some people feel they can be *******s and hide behind 'religion and the church' instead of just being upfront about being *******s in the first place.

This says alot about the church then.

[adoniijahsooner]

It was not just people. I also talked about how reading the Bible things are skipped over that they don't talk about in church. There's many things that are just...messed up. A personal experience with God? If the Bible is the word of God....:pop:

I am a huge critic of people who are not honest about what's in the bible. It's true that many topics are not discussed in church, because the church believes they need to protect the believers from difficult questions. For instance, there is a passage that talks about a man who married his dead brothers wife. After he had sex with her, he pulled out and shot his load on the floor. The bible says that he was struck down because of his actions, why? I have no idea, but I believe that story story is in there for a reason. Also, you have the scripture where God asks the angels who will go and be a lying spirit in the mouth of His prophets, so that Ahab may go to his death. Why? Again I have no idea why that was placed in the bible, but it should show that the people who wrote it wasnt trying to cover anything up.

The personal experience is a very clear one in my mind, and one I am very happy to have experienced on my own. If you don't believe it, then it is your choice not to believe it. But when someone prays or talks to the Lord about something, and recieve an answer in a way that there can be no doubt as to whether it was God, then how can someone else argue that without great difficulty? Just like I know I can't persuade you or anyone of something that is a reality to you. "Let each man be fully persuaded in His own mind."

[AggieTool]

I found this interesting diversion in another forum....

10 ways to know if yer a fundamentalist Christian.


10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

[SunnySooner]

My experience is very similar to the OP's--we had an "open door" policy--if the church doors were open, we were there. At OU, I never went to church unless I was home for the weekend. Now, I attend very sporadically, and feel guilty about it at times, but there ya go. My kids went to Christian preschools, but that has pretty much been the extent of their religious education to date. I, too, am very cynical toward "church" because of the hypocrisy, backbiting, and gossip I've seen there. But I do have a relationship with God. I pray more now than ever, and my beliefs are a great comfort to me while my husband is in a war zone. I do believe Jesus is the Son of God, and that he died for my sin. I believe the love and grace of God are greater than my mind can comprehend. But I don't believe all the "rules" that were preached to me growing up. Jesus died so that if I believe in him, and follow what he taught, mostly "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", I can have an abundant life here on earth, and an eternal life with Him when I die. For me, that's what it's about. Not, "don't do this, don't do that", just live as Christ lived, loving your fellow humans, serving them when possible, helping each other carry the load, and keeping your judgements to yourself. What a wonderful place this world would be if everyone lived like that.

[Soonrboy]

there are moments when I feel such pride and love for my children and the students I work with, secondly, that I know that is where God is in my life. That overwhelming pride that can bring tears to my ears lets me know that there is a presence greater than I can fathom.

[jdsooner]

The first post was very honest. I would say the fact that you feel guilty shows that you have been influenced by the church.

I think that the faith you grew up with was a "childhood faith." You are now an adult and if you are to remain a person of faith, then your faith must grow up with you.

For me, grown-up faith means that questions are allowed.
For me, grown-up faith emphasizes grace over guilt.
For me, grown-up faith meant abandoning the legalistic faith I grew up with and becoming more tolerant. In other words, becoming more like Jesus.

If you are thinking about this, then think some more. Read some books that deal with the questions you have raised. Attend worship at churches that are different than the tradition you grew up with. Read the gospels and consider the teachings of Jesus, who had his problems with the religion of his day.

Finally, grown-up religion emphasizes that God is love. The vital thing is finding ways to experience God's love and live in God's love.

[AggieTool]

The first post was very honest. I would say the fact that you feel guilty shows that you have been influenced by the church.

I think that the faith you grew up with was a "childhood faith." You are now an adult and if you are to remain a person of faith, then your faith must grow up with you.

For me, grown-up faith means that questions are allowed.
For me, grown-up faith emphasizes grace over guilt.
For me, grown-up faith meant abandoning the legalistic faith I grew up with and becoming more tolerant. In other words, becoming more like Jesus.

If you are thinking about this, then think some more. Read some books that deal with the questions you have raised. Attend worship at churches that are different than the tradition you grew up with. Read the gospels and consider the teachings of Jesus, who had his problems with the religion of his day.

Finally, grown-up religion emphasizes that God is love. The vital thing is finding ways to experience God's love and live in God's love.

Well Jesus WAS a liberal.:D

[47straight]

I found this interesting diversion in another forum....

10 ways to know if yer a fundamentalist Christian.

I can tell by the way you bash those stupid Christians that you are way more tolerant than those self-righteous hypocrites.

[AggieTool]

I can tell by the way you bash those stupid Christians that you are way more tolerant than those self-righteous hypocrites.

I give them their share of grief, but It's all tongue & cheek.:D

I was confirmed as a Catholic after all.:mad:

[soonerhubs]

Here's another thing that causes me to struggle with religion, the amount of prestige that a religion has based upon the amount of time that it has existed.

I reject the LDS as being part of "real" Christianity, mostly because it came to exist so close to now. Joseph Smith's writings of the angel Moroni, and the golden plates seem preposterous to me--not because it's any more out there than plenty of stuff that is in the Bible, but because it happened here and because it was written so recently.

Scientology is in the same boat. We all think it's ridiculous because we know that it was made up by a mediocre science fiction writer. But how will people feel about it in 200 years? What about 2,000?

I actually respect your honesty as to why you reject it. Religion is more comfortable when it's an abstract remote concept that remains intangible and less threatening.


Joseph Smith hangs out with the scientologists in his afterlife I believe

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