MAPS THREE

[OUHOMER]

I am for it, why wouldnt we want to keep the down town area growing. I know the cops don't want it saying there is not enough money for them to patrol etc etc.

I get that, but wont that come with more money spent in the area?

Thoughts?

[OUHOMER]

come on folks, the media said this was a very hot topic..

I guess they got that wrong too, lol

[Sooner24]

It's only logical to keep the progress going in my opinion.

MAPS is one of the reasons OKC>Tulsa

[JohnnyMack]

IBRussell

[Soonerus]

It needs to pass the police and fire unions are trying to use a No campaign for leverage for more money for themselves... Passage will result in more money available for the "unions"....duh...

[yermom]

is this one for the kids too?

how many of these are there?

[OUHOMER]

is this one for the kids too?

how many of these are there?

Heh, they will keep going until they can't get it voter approved.

[OUHOMER]

It needs to pass the police and fire unions are trying to use a No campaign for leverage for more money for themselves... Passage will result in more money available for the "unions"....duh...

exactly. I would not be opposed to a 1 cent entertainment tax within the boundaries of the bricktown/entertainment area to go directly to police/fire/ambulance. Minus retail IE Bass Pro shop.

[OUMallen]

The cops and fire are attempting to hold MAPS hostage for political leverage. They actually get nothing out of it if MAPS3 doesn't pass. And possibly, they'll lose out on increased funding due by preventing increased sales tax revenues.

I'm 100000% in favor of MAPS and I've lost complete respect for the OCPD and OCFD Unions for picking this fight in this manner. It's a FALSE choice. Don't believe them.

[OUHOMER]

The cops and fire are attempting to hold MAPS hostage for political leverage. They actually get nothing out of it if MAPS3 doesn't pass. And possibly, they'll lose out on increased funding due by preventing increased sales tax revenues.

I'm 100000% in favor of MAPS and I've lost complete respect for the OCPD and OCFD Unions for picking this fight in this manner. It's a FALSE choice. Don't believe them.

I agree, why would they want to stagnate extra tax revenues that would effect them.

Plus I dont think they they would be making any friends on the city council.

[Soonerus]

It is not the "cops and fire" it is the unions...important to note...

[Mjcpr]

It is not the "cops and fire" it is the unions...important to note...

OKC and Tulsa do have some similarities then. :D

The police union here has no interest in helping the City during its budget crisis, they're only interested in themselves. The fire union, I believe, did some restructuring in the past to save a lot of money on administrative personnel costs.

[OUMallen]

It is not the "cops and fire" it is the unions...important to note...

It's the damned same thing. And I feel it's an inappropriate political battle to wage. They're going below the belt. It's very "dog in the manger".

[Mjcpr]

That said...police and fire probably shouldn't be funded only by sales tax but that's another matter.

[OUHOMER]

It is not the "cops and fire" it is the unions...important to note...

So the cops and firemen have no say in the unions.

[OUMallen]

Apparently they are allowed to benefit from unions, but should have no accountability when those same unions do something that makes people unhappy?

[sooner_born_1960]

What are they gonna build with this round?

[yermom]

http://okc.about.com/od/citygovernment/a/okcmaps3.htm





The sales tax extension for the Ford Center renovations expires at the end of March 2009. Mayor Mick Cornett and the city released the official plan for MAPS 3 on September 17, 2009.

The official plan calls for a December 8, 2009 vote on a continuation of the one-cent sales tax for a period of 7 years and 9 months. According to the city, if approved, the total $777 million would be used for the following:

* A new, approximately 70-acre central park linking the core of downtown with the Oklahoma River. The park would include a restaurant, lake, amphitheater, dog park, skating rink and other amenities. ($130 million)
* A new rail-based streetcar system of 5 to 6 miles downtown, a downtown transit hub to link streetcar, commuter rail and bus systems, and possibly increased funding for the building of commuter rail lines. ($130 million)
* A new downtown convention center on the south edge of downtown near the proposed park. ($280 million)
* Sidewalks to be placed on major streets and near facilities used by the public throughout the city. ($10 million)
* 57 miles of new public bicycling and walking trails throughout the City. ($40 million)
* Improvements to the Oklahoma River, including a public whitewater kayaking facility and upgrades intended to achieve the finest rowing racecourse in the world. ($60 million)
* State-of-the-art health and wellness aquatic centers throughout the city designed for senior citizens. ($50 million)
* Improvements to the State Fair Park public buildings, meeting halls and exhibit spaces. ($60 million)
* Contingency funds to cover unforeseen costs ($17 million)

Coming out in support of MAPS 3 are, obviously, the mayor and the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber, as well as many other civic organizations, schools and businesses. They have a campaign website at www.yesformaps.com. On the other side of the issue are Oklahoma City's fire and police unions, among others. Their committee Not This MAPS claims there are far more pressing concerns in the current economic climate.

sounds good to me... not that i'd be playing much of those taxes :D

[OUMallen]

What are they gonna build with this round?

A new, approximately 70-acre central park linking the core of downtown with the Oklahoma River

A new rail-based streetcar system, plus potential funding for other rail transit initiatives, such as commuter lines and a transit hub

A new downtown convention center

Sidewalks to be placed on major streets and near facilities used by the public throughout the City

57 miles of new public bicycling and walking trails throughout the City
Improvements to the Oklahoma River, including a public whitewater kayaking facility and upgrades intended to achieve the finest rowing racecourse in the world

State-of-the-art health and wellness aquatic centers throughout the City designed for senior citizens

Improvements to the Oklahoma State Fairgrounds

[Soonerus]

Apparently they are allowed to benefit from unions, but should have no accountability when those same unions do something that makes people unhappy?

I am not saying that I just have great respect for our police and firemen, not so much for any union....

[OUMallen]

I am not saying that I just have great respect for our police and firemen, not so much for any union....

As do I. But their professional organization is, in my opinion, wrong in this matter and should NOT be doing what they're doing. As such, I question either: a) the general attitude of the FD and PD on the matter, or b) the control that the constituents have over the union.

To me, either the constituent members are either apathetic (and the union leaders are acting on their own) or hostile to MAPS3 based on very faulty reasoning. Neither is good.

[Soonerus]

As do I. But their professional organization is, in my opinion, wrong in this matter and should NOT be doing what they're doing. As such, I question either: a) the general attitude of the FD and PD on the matter, or b) the control that the constituents have over the union.

To me, either the constituent members are either apathetic (and the union leaders are acting on their own) or hostile to MAPS3 based on very faulty reasoning. Neither is good.

I have no problem with any of that and tend to agree with you...I wish they were not doing it....

[yermom]

a cursory glance on that notthismaps.com site kinda makes some sense, i mean you can pick negative stuff out of anything if you are pissed about it or don't like who is doing it...

[OUMallen]

The biggest weakness of the ProMAPS3 crowd isn't even listed on the notthismaps.com site. Their effort is weak, IMO. Political gamesmanship; not legitimate concern of the merits of MAPS3.

[sooner_born_1960]

I'm not sure all those a vitally important projects. I wonder how many would pass if voted on individually.

[Condescending Sooner]

The light rail is a waste of money and is doomed to failure.

[Viking Kitten]

Why do you say that?

[OUMallen]

I'm not sure all those a vitally important projects. I wonder how many would pass if voted on individually.

There was a survey done- the park and the rail are popular, as are the sidewalks. The convention center is not popular.

The light rail, I think, is a great idea. Esp if they can get it to run like it *needs* to run.

Connecting: St. Anthony's (Midtown), Bricktown, Downtown, Myriad Gardens/new park, Chesapeake Boathouse, Automobile Alley.

If you start with that, then extend the line to the airport and maybe the Adventure District, you'd have something...obviously, that's more tourism-based than mass transit based.

[Condescending Sooner]

Why do you say that?

It has been tried in Phoenix and another city not unlike OKC. (Alb. NM?), and has been a dismal failure. They as well as OKC are just too spread out to attract enough riders to make it viable.

All you have to do is look at the buses and trolleys in downtown. They are constantly empty. It sounds fun and everyone says they will ride it, but history and evidence in other towns say otherwise. It is money best spent elsewhere.

[Viking Kitten]

However, Dallas is also a sprawling city and DART has been a huge success as I understand it. Its under expansion right now. The problem with the downtown trolleys in OKC may be more a function of how poorly and inconsistently they are operated. They way the system is currently routed, it seem pretty useless for transportation.

[TheUnnamedSooner]

Yes, but the people here in Dallas ride it to avoid the traffic. Plus it's cheap. My wife rides DART to work, and it saves her about 30 miles each way for driving, plus not having to sit and wait in traffic. I know she wouldn't ride it if the traffic was like OKC, unless gas got to pushing $5 a gallon again. It's just not convenient, unless you don't mind having your vehicle all day.

[soonervegas]

I don't understand the senior citizens wellness center and I think the central park is too ambitious (for this city right now).....just my 2 cents. I am still voting yes, but have my doubts on thos two projects.

Count me as someone that would have liked to have seen this voted on by item....but of course that goes against politics 101.

[Sooner24]

I don't understand the senior citizens wellness center and I think the central park is too ambitious (for this city right now).....just my 2 cents. I am still voting yes, but have my doubts on thos two projects.

Count me as someone that would have liked to have seen this voted on by item....but of course that goes against politics 101.

The first two MAPS projects have delivered everything they proposed so I don't know why this would be any different. First time for everything though.

[Viking Kitten]

Voted a big fat yes this morning. Seems like the positives of this far exceed any perceived negatives.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Like the positives of the MAPS3 tax only covering the capital expenditures of the projects, not the operating costs? Which in turn will come from general fund budgets, thus DIRECTLY affecting the amount of funds available from the general fund for EVERY city function, including police, fire, public works, parks, et cetera?

And how does this address the citywide 2% cut to operating budgets? And the deficit of 200 police officers and 50 firefighters?

Folks can scream unions all day long. But the fact remains, for a lot of folks, ensuring basic city services at appropriate strength and function is a dang sight more important than constructing buildings you already have and recently renovated, building parks and a street car system that will do nothing but put an even bigger strain on general fund expenditures, and swimming pools for old folks that already have access to similar facilities.

In other words, this ain't a union issue. It's an issue of folks standing up for what's right, with the FOP and Local 157 being the only means these agencies have to voice dissent without losing their job, while voicing that opinion in their role.

Oooooh. Spooky unions.

[beer4me]

Just got back from voting Yes

[OUMallen]

It has been tried in Phoenix and another city not unlike OKC. (Alb. NM?), and has been a dismal failure. They as well as OKC are just too spread out to attract enough riders to make it viable.

All you have to do is look at the buses and trolleys in downtown. They are constantly empty. It sounds fun and everyone says they will ride it, but history and evidence in other towns say otherwise. It is money best spent elsewhere.

Untrue. See Dallas and Portland.

[OUMallen]

Like the positives of the MAPS3 tax only covering the capital expenditures of the projects, not the operating costs? Which in turn will come from general fund budgets, thus DIRECTLY affecting the amount of funds available from the general fund for EVERY city function, including police, fire, public works, parks, et cetera?

And how does this address the citywide 2% cut to operating budgets? And the deficit of 200 police officers and 50 firefighters?

Folks can scream unions all day long. But the fact remains, for a lot of folks, ensuring basic city services at appropriate strength and function is a dang sight more important than constructing buildings you already have and recently renovated, building parks and a street car system that will do nothing but put an even bigger strain on general fund expenditures, and swimming pools for old folks that already have access to similar facilities.

In other words, this ain't a union issue. It's an issue of folks standing up for what's right, with the FOP and Local 157 being the only means these agencies have to voice dissent without losing their job, while voicing that opinion in their role.

Oooooh. Spooky unions.

The same unions that said they'd support MAPS3 if they received consideration in unrelated contract negotiations.

Doing the "right" thing, indeed. They're doing the selfish thing and everyone knows it.



Also, it's not SUPPOSED to address the 2% budget cuts. In this economy, the unions think they're immune to a budget cut? Why should they be? You're lucky it's only a 2% reduction in the WORST ECONOMY SINCE THE GREAT DEPRESSION.

[GrapevineSooner]

Yes, but the people here in Dallas ride it to avoid the traffic. Plus it's cheap. My wife rides DART to work, and it saves her about 30 miles each way for driving, plus not having to sit and wait in traffic. I know she wouldn't ride it if the traffic was like OKC, unless gas got to pushing $5 a gallon again. It's just not convenient, unless you don't mind having your vehicle all day.

I live about 30 miles from downtown Dallas.

Anytime I'd go to the American Airlines Center to attend a Mavs or Stars game, we always drove, which meant fighting traffic to get there and then pay $20 to park.

A few years ago, I won tickets to a Stars-Ducks playoff game and invited my Longhorn buddy (yes, I have them unfortunately. It's a cross you bear when you're born and raised in Dallas ;) ) to go with me. Except he lived in Mesquite and worked in North Dallas.

Solution?

He rode Dart and I rode the Trinity Railway Express from DFW. Both of us paid $6 to ride and both of us were dropped off at the Victory Station with about a 300 foot walk to the AAC.

I'll never drive to the AAC, again, thanks to the TRE.

[Viking Kitten]

Did the original MAPS address the issue of operating costs of the proposed projects? I think most OKC residents will agree that everything turned out okay on that front. In fact, one might argue the passage of MAPS and the resulting improvements to our city is a contributing factor in why we only have a two percent shortfall as opposed the double digit numbers Tulsa is facing. The word "vision" comes to mind.

Don't Tulsa my OKC plskthx.

[NormanPride]

Tulsans are too busy crying about public pools and golf courses closing to worry about making the city better. :)

[OUDoc]

My uncles (one retired) are OCPD and both are for Maps 3. Not sure exactly why the FOP is against it if they are for it.

[OUMallen]

The "Not this MAPS" coalition is "spearheaded by the pledge of major financial and volunteer support by The Oklahoma City Fraternal Order of Police and The Oklahoma City Firefighters Association Local 157." (1) Coincidentally, both the police and fire labor contracts with the city are currently up for negotiation and in arbitration.

Myth: Firefighters Local 157 union president Phil Sipe said the December 8th election "is not about negotiated issues between police and fire and the city."(1)

Fact: Unfortunately, it seems the union opposition to MAPS is entirely about gaining further leverage in current and future contract negotiations.

The facts are in black-and-white in this letter from James R. Moore, the attorney negotiating with the city on behalf of the police union:

http://www.yesformaps.com/MAPSFacts09/images/FOP%20Response%20%20Counter%20to%20City%2011%2010% 2009%20small.jpg





This letter states that as late as November 10, 2009, the police union was willing to "get on board with MAPS 3" if their contract demands could be met.



In September, FOP president Gil Hensley described this MAPS to City council members as a package of "good projects” that was flawed because it doesn’t include money for public safety. (2) By November 13, when contract negotiations had not produced the desired results, Hensley said in a press conference that this MAPS was a "bad plan" and that "police and fire are united in (an) effort to defeat this MAPS proposal."(1)

Recently both unions submitted their “best and final” offers to the city for their contract negotiations, and not a single one of their issues addressed public safety. One of the police union demands was to add a full-time city-paid police officer to the payroll to do work for the union full-time. Another demand was for an additional paid day off during each 28-day work period.

The Fire union final demands included more sick leave, holidays, vacations, overtime, wages, an enhanced pay matrix, and a revised longevity schedule.

Bottom Line
The opposition to this MAPS is being lead by two unions that are in contentious labor contract negotiations with the city. Their views on MAPS changed only after contract demands were not met to their satisfaction. The fact is, these MAPS projects are "good projects." Let's "get on board with MAPS 3" and vote YES on December 8.

[Jello Biafra]

hold the hell up....what is currently being built on the southbank of the river between I-35 and I-40 right now? big *** dirt pile for the longest time and now it is starting to look like an ampitheatre....are you telling me they have built it and there is no fundage for it right now?

[Sooner24]

Did the original MAPS address the issue of operating costs of the proposed projects? I think most OKC residents will agree that everything turned out okay on that front. In fact, one might argue the passage of MAPS and the resulting improvements to our city is a contributing factor in why we only have a two percent shortfall as opposed the double digit numbers Tulsa is facing. The word "vision" comes to mind.

Don't Tulsa my OKC plskthx.

Another reason Viking Kitten > Tulsa

[Viking Kitten]

hold the hell up....what is currently being built on the southbank of the river between I-35 and I-40 right now? big *** dirt pile for the longest time and now it is starting to look like an ampitheatre....are you telling me they have built it and there is no fundage for it right now?

So far they have raised not quite half of what they need to complete the American Indian Cultural Center. Funding for the project was originally supposed to be one third from the state, one third federal, and one third from private sources (i.e the tribes.) So far, about three quarters of the funding have come from the state, the tribes have not lived up to their end of the bargain.

http://www.aiccm.org/capital-campaign

[Collier11]

Very early exit polls show the Yes vote up 59-41, again, very early but I just wanted to pass it along

[kbsooner21]

You can add 1 more yes vote whenever I get off work.

[OUMallen]

Very early exit polls show the Yes vote up 59-41, again, very early but I just wanted to pass it along

Collier, where did you find this info? I've been hunting for exit polls...

[Collier11]

One of my college buddies works on the campaign

[OUHOMER]

count me in, Just voted YES,,,, not a big turn out where i voted, i think the machine read I was voter 55

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Did the original MAPS address the issue of operating costs of the proposed projects? I think most OKC residents will agree that everything turned out okay on that front. In fact, one might argue the passage of MAPS and the resulting improvements to our city is a contributing factor in why we only have a two percent shortfall as opposed the double digit numbers Tulsa is facing. The word "vision" comes to mind.

Don't Tulsa my OKC plskthx.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? That's retarded.

OKC > Tulsa, right? What about the gigantic landgrab tactics and the massive tax base that OKC provides jack squat for services to? Maybe that has something to do with it. What about the multijurisdictional areas that Oklahoma City simply REFUSES to service, unless it's a trash can that you're forced to pay for? Maybe that has something to do with it. What about dedicated revenue to public safety that took the deaths of 3 firefighters to get? Maybe that has something to do with it. And yes, maybe even MAPS has something to do with it. I'd bet it does. All of which have zip to do with establishing funding streams to maintain those capital expenditures. This is placing MORE strain, 7+ million dollars a year from what I've found, against a general fund budget that's already in the red. In a economic environment that's shaky at best.

But hey, I guess I'll just hang out up the turnpike with my double digit sales tax failings, my new giant glass antfarm-ish City Hall, the upkeep expenditures for all those former city agency buildings, and this wicked awesome ballpark. Because OKC > Tulsa, right? Because Vision 2025 was stoopit, right?

Jesus H. Effing Christ.

[OUMallen]

What the hell is that supposed to mean? That's retarded.

OKC > Tulsa, right? What about the gigantic landgrab tactics and the massive tax base that OKC provides jack squat for services to? Maybe that has something to do with it. What about the multijurisdictional areas that Oklahoma City simply REFUSES to service, unless it's a trash can that you're forced to pay for? Maybe that has something to do with it. What about dedicated revenue to public safety that took the deaths of 3 firefighters to get? Maybe that has something to do with it. And yes, maybe even MAPS has something to do with it. I'd bet it does. All of which have zip to do with establishing funding streams to maintain those capital expenditures. This is placing MORE strain, 7+ million dollars a year from what I've found, against a general fund budget that's already in the red. In a economic environment that's shaky at best.

But hey, I guess I'll just hang out up the turnpike with my double digit sales tax failings, my new giant glass antfarm-ish City Hall, the upkeep expenditures for all those former city agency buildings, and this wicked awesome ballpark. Because OKC > Tulsa, right? Because Vision 2025 was stoopit, right?

Jesus H. Effing Christ.

It means we'd rather have a city that's willing to put its money where it's mouth is rather than one that hangs its hat on past accomplishments.

[Collier11]

Right, OKC is > Tulsa

[OUDoc]

What the hell is that supposed to mean? That's retarded.

OKC > Tulsa, right? What about the gigantic landgrab tactics and the massive tax base that OKC provides jack squat for services to? Maybe that has something to do with it. What about the multijurisdictional areas that Oklahoma City simply REFUSES to service, unless it's a trash can that you're forced to pay for? Maybe that has something to do with it. What about dedicated revenue to public safety that took the deaths of 3 firefighters to get? Maybe that has something to do with it. And yes, maybe even MAPS has something to do with it. I'd bet it does. All of which have zip to do with establishing funding streams to maintain those capital expenditures. This is placing MORE strain, 7+ million dollars a year from what I've found, against a general fund budget that's already in the red. In a economic environment that's shaky at best.

But hey, I guess I'll just hang out up the turnpike with my double digit sales tax failings, my new giant glass antfarm-ish City Hall, the upkeep expenditures for all those former city agency buildings, and this wicked awesome ballpark. Because OKC > Tulsa, right? Because Vision 2025 was stoopit, right?

Jesus H. Effing Christ.

Tulsa people seem to know a lot about OKC.

[Collier11]

its almost like osu's obsession with OU :D

[Tulsa_Fireman]

It means we'd rather have a city that's willing to put its money where it's mouth is rather than one that hangs its hat on past accomplishments.

This, too, is retarded.

It has jack squat to do with the usual OKC/Tulsa pissing match. It has jack squat to do with union strongarming.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the upkeep of capital expenditures not having a funding source, which places that demand on the general fund, which in turn takes those available funds from existing city agencies that are already staring down the barrel of budget reductions. I'm not in a position of throwing shots at OKC from the perspective of a Tulsan. I'm in the position of being born and raised in the OKC area, having family that depend on Oklahoma City services, who are now looking at decreased available sales tax revenue in a depressed economic environment to fund those basic services we expect city government to provide. ESPECIALLY when those basic city functions are ALREADY understaffed, ALREADY in a position that violates national standard.

Would this work with a different set of circumstances? You bet! I'd be the first one in line from your brothers up the turnpike to applaud the continued development and praise Oklahoma City for becoming the shining gem she is. But right now? Given the current economic state of affairs? No. Because it won't be a pool for old people that drags your burning backside out of your house. It won't be a new convention center giving you chest compressions and providing life saving first response and ALS care. It won't be a kayak park that busts the bad guys and works to keep dope and gangs off the street.

[saucysoonergal]

Increased tax revenue from tourism and increased growth (ie new businesses) will pay for those aforementioned services. Some folks just don't seem to get it. ;)

[OUMallen]

1.25 billion dollar increase in tourism spending since MAPS1, Tulsa fireman. Your opinion is the retarded one.

[OUDoc]

now looking at decreased available sales tax revenue in a depressed economic environment to fund those basic services we expect city government to provide.

That's where I'm lost. Why is Maps going to take anything away? It's a separate tax. It's not taking away from anyone but the taxpayers. This money was not available to fire or police if Maps failed. Unless you are saying the tax will cause people to want to spend less on community service funding, which seems like a stretch for people who just voted on a voluntary tax to improve their community.

[Viking Kitten]

It's retarded you think we give a sh*t what Tulsans think about how we run our city. Get your own house in order, then maybe your opinion will mean something.

Can't wait to take my family whitewater kayaking!

[JohnnyMack]

I still think arguing over which city is better is like arguing over whether you'd like to die by hanging or firing squad.

Both options suck.

[Collier11]

atleast they arent arguing about politics...wait

[JohnnyMack]

And I will opine that I think Tulsa should shift towards deriving its revenue from property taxes and not be so dependent on the erratic nature of sales tax revenue.

[Mjcpr]

And I will opine that I think Tulsa should shift towards deriving its revenue from property taxes and not be so dependent on the erratic nature of sales tax revenue.

That'd be cool and all but I don't think state statute allows for municipality operations to be funded this way. I could be wrong.

[Frozen Sooner]

And I will opine that I think Tulsa should shift towards deriving its revenue from property taxes and not be so dependent on the erratic nature of sales tax revenue.

You do that and you'll get a bunch of ignorant whining about how renters don't pay property taxes and freeload.

Because no property owner ever raises rent in order to cover the increase in property tax, and no business ever factors property taxes into their costs when setting prices.

[NormanPride]

Lots of Tulsa bashing in here. Why?

[Collier11]

I could care less, its funny to me to listen to all the OKC and Tulsa people go after the others city, who cares. If you live in Tulsa you probably like it better, if you live in OKC you probably like it better, I personally live in Norman and I like it way better than either.

To me Tulsa is almost like its in a diff state, I rarely go there, probably 3 times in my 28 yrs to do anything recreational.

[Frozen Sooner]

Lots of Tulsa bashing in here. Why?

I haven't been keeping score, but I think it's because a Tulsa resident came in and told the OKC people they were wrong for voting for MAPS 3.

[NormanPride]

I haven't been keeping score, but I think it's because a Tulsa resident came in and told the OKC people they were wrong for voting for MAPS 3.

But he's a member of the firefighter's union, right? And people were attacking them for being against it. It was a well informed opinion that resulted in people attacking Tulsa rather than the points he made.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

That's where I'm lost. Why is Maps going to take anything away? It's a separate tax. It's not taking away from anyone but the taxpayers. This money was not available to fire or police if Maps failed. Unless you are saying the tax will cause people to want to spend less on community service funding, which seems like a stretch for people who just voted on a voluntary tax to improve their community.

MAPS itself, no. There's a few question marks that are raised however from the inception of the extension of the MAPS sales tax, none of which are about the passing of the actual extension for the capital expenditures.

One, the construction of those capital expenditures require upkeep and an operational budget. MAPS does not fund operating expenses of these capital improvements, therefore those dollars will need to come from Oklahoma City's general fund, the pool of money that funds the majority of city governmental operations. Currently, due to decreases in sales tax revenue, the City has decreed a 2% overall reduction in all operating budgets. That's WITH all the tourism dollars generated by MAPS one and two. So kudos to OKC for the first couple of rounds of MAPS. I can imagine it'd be more like Tulsa's bleak sales tax collections without it.

Two, with additional financial obligation (MAPS3 operating costs) to a general fund that's already below projections and already requiring cuts in city services, we see the availability of funds FOR those existing services decrease. The pie is only so big. The pie is shrinking due to decreases in actual sales tax receipts. The simplistic answer is twofold. Increase the size of the pie (increase sales tax revenues applicable to the general fund), or decrease the size of the slices of pie you hand out to everyone (decrease operating budgets). With the operating budgets for the capital expenditures of MAPS3, there's a projected 7 million dollar slice of pie that was once, but will no longer be available to all of the other city services that operate from the general fund, in a time where they're already cutting budgets because of these sales tax shortfalls.

Three, there's multiple forces at work against increased revenue generation from the capital expenditures of MAPS3. One, tourism saturation. Given the boon of MAPS one and two and the established tourist attractions of Oklahoma City, will these capital expenditures generate more sales tax receipts than what's currently being collected by the numerous attractions of the OKC area? Maybe. Will the generation of sales tax receipts exceed the operating costs? Possibly. But with an existing, recently renovated convention center in the Myriad, the pearl of MAPS3, a NEW convention center, doesn't look so shiny in generation of increased sales tax receipts. And if OKC tourism is nearing or at saturation, we can expect continued decrease in overall sales tax receipts WITH the additional operation drain on the general fund from these expenditures.

That's my take. Lots of folks equate the boon of MAPS one and two with this sales tax extension, MAPS 3. I hope to hell it works, sales tax receipts go through the roof, and those dollars are used to restaff public safety to normal operating levels. But with MAPS 3, with the increased deficit to the general fund from the operating costs thereof, I don't see it happening. General fund money will go to the shiny new pearls, city government will look at the strained operational capacity of its police and fire, find it's working well enough, and smile as it shows you what all amazing things Oklahoma City has done. All while the CORE services you depend on suffer as a result.

Maybe when this is all said and done, Mayor Cornett can get off his nuts and help petition state government to amend the state constitution to allow municipal fire departments to collect ad valorem dollars to establish a steady funding stream. Do THAT and this argument is moot.

[Frozen Sooner]

But he's a member of the firefighter's union, right? And people were attacking them for being against it. It was a well informed opinion that resulted in people attacking Tulsa rather than the points he made.

Like I said, I wasn't keeping score.

[NormanPride]

Well... fine, then.

:D

[Mjcpr]

I haven't been keeping score, but I think it's because a Tulsa resident came in and told the OKC people they were wrong for voting for MAPS 3.

It doesn't matter where he is from, his points were specific to municipal government funding which are valid state wide and wasn't bashing OKC or Tulsa as far as I could tell.

[Frozen Sooner]

It doesn't matter where he is from, his points were specific to municipal government funding which are valid state wide and wasn't bashing OKC or Tulsa as far as I could tell.

I didn't say he was.

People tend to get testy when outsiders tell them how to manage their business, whether their points are valid or not.

I thought TF had some valid points as well.

[Mjcpr]

I didn't say you said he was!

:D

[OUDoc]

I didn't say you said he was!

:D
Stop sending me PM's saying those things about Frozen. :mad:

















:)

[Mjcpr]

You rather I just hit you up in the spek comments then?

[JohnnyMack]

room.

[yermom]

It doesn't matter where he is from, his points were specific to municipal government funding which are valid state wide and wasn't bashing OKC or Tulsa as far as I could tell.

strong words... from a Tulsan

[Sooner24]

This, too, is retarded.

It has jack squat to do with the usual OKC/Tulsa pissing match. It has jack squat to do with union strongarming.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the upkeep of capital expenditures not having a funding source, which places that demand on the general fund, which in turn takes those available funds from existing city agencies that are already staring down the barrel of budget reductions. I'm not in a position of throwing shots at OKC from the perspective of a Tulsan. I'm in the position of being born and raised in the OKC area, having family that depend on Oklahoma City services, who are now looking at decreased available sales tax revenue in a depressed economic environment to fund those basic services we expect city government to provide. ESPECIALLY when those basic city functions are ALREADY understaffed, ALREADY in a position that violates national standard.

Would this work with a different set of circumstances? You bet! I'd be the first one in line from your brothers up the turnpike to applaud the continued development and praise Oklahoma City for becoming the shining gem she is. But right now? Given the current economic state of affairs? No. Because it won't be a pool for old people that drags your burning backside out of your house. It won't be a new convention center giving you chest compressions and providing life saving first response and ALS care. It won't be a kayak park that busts the bad guys and works to keep dope and gangs off the street.

Just stay in that Utopia called Tulsa and it will all be fine. :pop:

[Viking Kitten]

I don't see how it is bashing to point out that that Tulsa is in far worse financial shape than OKC is. That is a plain fact. Tulsa is a lovely city, it's simply too bad that its leaders have not been able to capitalize on the city's many strengths to manage it better. Nor it it bashing to be proud of the fact that our city has strong leaders who have earned our trust with a proven record of vision and creativity, much like I am proud of the fact that the negative nellies and whiners of OKC are in the minority, at least when it comes to election day.

[JohnnyMack]

I don't see how it is bashing to point out that that Tulsa is in far worse financial shape than OKC is. That is a plain fact. Tulsa is a lovely city, it's simply too bad that its leaders have not been able to capitalize on the city's many strengths to manage it better. Nor it it bashing to be proud of the fact that our city has strong leaders who have earned our trust with a proven record of vision and creativity, much like I am proud of the fact that the negative nellies and whiners of OKC are in the minority, at least when it comes to election day.

True. I would argue that the state legislature was way behind the curve in making the state "business friendly" which hurt both cities. OKC owes almost all of its current success to MAPS. I was living in Norman when the original proposal rolled out and you'd have to admit AT THAT TIME, OKC was just as big a turd farm as Tulsa. I give all the credit in the world to OKC for rolling the dice on MAPS.

I will add that I think it's too soon to tell if OKC can keep the plates spinning and continue to fund it all (I hope they can). But TF makes some great points about how it's all going to be maintained.

[C&CDean]

Personally, I couldn't give a ****. I only make it up to OKC a couple times a year anymore, and Tulsa maybe once a year.

That being said, I must say that I do enjoy the whole Bricktown area experience a hell of a lot more now than I used to. When the only things down there were O'Brien's Piano Bar, Bricktown Charley's, and the Spaghetti Warehouse. It's come a very long ways, and even though I don't live/support OKC with my tax $$, I think MAPS has brought them kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.

Tulsa, OTOH has gotten pretty ghetto lately. Yeah, they built the BOK Center, but it's just camoflauge for a big turd. I'd like to see both cities thriving again.

[Fraggle145]

I didnt get a vote, but I am glad it passed. The only thing I saw wrong with it was the new convention center, that I dont really get the need to have, when you already have 2. But I hope the light rail is a big success...

[NormanPride]

I'm just afraid OKC will end up like Tulsa if things fall down for them. We're stuck in the past with the majority of the people wanting things we had back when Tulsa was a huge industry city. We get lots of neat toys during the oil boom... then again during the tech boom... Each time the booms go away but the toys have to stay. It cripples us.

[OUDoc]

I'm just afraid OKC will end up like Tulsa if things fall down for them. We're stuck in the past with the majority of the people wanting things we had back when Tulsa was a huge industry city. We get lots of neat toys during the oil boom... then again during the tech boom... Each time the booms go away but the toys have to stay. It cripples us.

But we aren't reliant on one specific industry. That's the difference.

[Jello Biafra]

ill be old someday.

hopefully i'll be able to play in the water sprinklers downtown when i get that way....

WTF? a water park for oldies but goodies? what do the golden girls need a place to sun their flapjacks or am i reading this the wrong way?

[OUDoc]

ill be old someday.

hopefully i'll be able to play in the water sprinklers downtown when i get that way....

WTF? a water park for oldies but goodies? what do the golden girls need a place to sun their flapjacks or am i reading this the wrong way?

I'll meet you down there in 25 years and we can ogle them.

[NormanPride]

But we aren't reliant on one specific industry. That's the difference.

Isn't OKC heavily reliant on natural gas? (lol farts)

[Jello Biafra]

I'll meet you down there in 25 years and we can ogle them.

werd ;)

[TAFBSooner]

. . . to be proud of the fact that our city has strong leaders who have earned our trust with a proven record of vision and creativity, much like I am proud of the fact that the negative nellies and whiners of OKC are in the minority, at least when it comes to election day.

I like what the first two and a fraction MAPS have done for the city. :) Trusting the leadership, not so much. If the mayor and council had had vision and creativity, or even listened to others that did, we could have had our new I-40 *and* a hub for our transit system. Now we have to start over, in one of two less-desirable locations for the hub.:mad:

[Viking Kitten]

Can't say I disagree with you on that point, except that quite a lot of the blame for that falls on ODOT's shoulders more than it does the city's.

[CORNholio]

The only things worthwhile are the rail project and the park. The rest are a waste. I wish they had thrown in a football stadium to lure xii champ game or a bowl game. Or just pour all the money into a rail project.

[Boarder]

No one has mentioned how OKC University plans to move its law school to the Fred Jones Mfg building if the transit system gets put into place.

There's no denying that MAPS has done wonders for OKC and I think that has built up a bit of trust for the city leaders.

Portland's downtown rail stuff was amazing. I remember thinking how awesome it would be in OKC.

[Fraggle145]

The only things worthwhile are the rail project and the park. The rest are a waste. I wish they had thrown in a football stadium to lure xii champ game or a bowl game. Or just pour all the money into a rail project.

yep.

[TAFBSooner]

Can't say I disagree with you on that point, except that quite a lot of the blame for that falls on ODOT's shoulders more than it does the city's.

Over the summer there was some support on the council for the ONTRAC mod, that would have added $30 million to the cost of new I-40 and kept the footprint of the rail yard. According to ONTRAC, if the city had asked for it, ODOT would have listened. Then "something happened" and the pro-rail votes went away.:mad:

MAPS 3 passed, there's a good chance the city will be on balance better off, and there's a sure bet that the Cornetts, Humphreys and Gaylords will get richer. Gotta work with what we've got. The $130 million for rail includes money for a study for the intermodal transit center, aka hub. Keep pushing for that to be done right - i.e., space for enough tracks to handle a complete system that will make Mick's kids and Kirk's grandkids richer still - and make the rest of us less vulnerable to the Saudis turning off the tap.

[TAFBSooner]

The only things worthwhile are the rail project and the park. The rest are a waste. I wish they had thrown in a football stadium to lure xii champ game or a bowl game. Or just pour all the money into a rail project.

It would be hard to justify a football stadium for one bowl game and a rotating share of the Big XII. But lightning did strike with the Ford Center.

Maybe that was the wrong weather-related analogy.:O

[Mjcpr]

In fact, one might argue the passage of MAPS and the resulting improvements to our city is a contributing factor in why we only have a two percent shortfall as opposed the double digit numbers Tulsa is facing. The word "vision" comes to mind.


I hope you don't see the double digit numbers but that December sales tax payment that was off almost 16% from last year won't help matters. Hopefully the January payment is better for everyone but I don't really see any reason that it will be. My personal observation during December was the stores around here couldn't possibly be any busier but we won't see that until February.