Sneak Peek At A New Billboard Coming To Tulsa

[JohnnyMack]

http://tulsa.unitedcor.org/sites/default/files/images/TulsaCoR%20Billboard1.jpg

[NormanPride]

Oh dear... Please don't let it get to you, people...

[Fraggle145]

nice.

[Collier11]

I get what they are saying and I realize that deep down they arent trying to offend Christians but is it really necessary?

[JohnnyMack]

I get what they are saying and I realize that deep down they arent trying to offend Christians but is it really necessary?

Are all the Christian billboards really necessary?

Promoting our message is the only way we ever makes gains.

[Collier11]

The reason it isnt necessary is because of the wording and the location, we all know that a huge majority of Oklahomans are Christians, some of them fanatical, the way it is worded makes it seem like a pot shot at Christianity, I heard the guy in an interview explain what their point was but why do you need to make the point that you dont believe in God. No one really cares if you dont believe in God, thats your choice.

To me this is like Gay people who make such a big deal about being gay, if you are gay that is fine and I have no issues with it but do you really need to go out of your way to show everyone that you are gay? By bringing more attention to something like this all you are doing is being unnecessary

[starclassic tama]

how does it make it a pot shot at christianity? it says god, not jesus. insert any god from any religion. it's pretty awesome people are coming out and professing an ability to think for themselves and not let themselves be threatened into believing ludicrous things.

[Collier11]

I thought I told you to never talk to me on this board again, do us all a favor and pull your bottom lip over your head and swallow

[starclassic tama]

awww i'm sorry for hurtin your little feewers. there is that whole ignore feature ya know

[soonerhubs]

So which one are you? ;)
http://tulsa.unitedcor.org/sites/default/files/images/AboutUs.jpg


Seriously,
I don't find this any more or less annoying than the "Go to Hell!... Or heaven! It's your choice" billboards.
:D

[NormanPride]

I would be happier if it just said religion instead of "God". I don't know why.

[soonerhubs]

how does it make it a pot shot at christianity? it says god, not jesus. insert any god from any religion. it's pretty awesome people are coming out and professing an ability to think for themselves and not let themselves be threatened into believing ludicrous things.

I've heard some people suggest that what ever people follow is their "god". I find that to mean things such as money, recognition from men, or even, I'd suggest, this society's version of "reason". Kind of paradoxical, no?

Grammatical aside: Does the period go before or after quotes? I always forget.

[starclassic tama]

that would have been the better word choice. but i suspect they wanted to strike a nerve, and god would have done a better job.

[soonerhubs]

that would have been the better word choice. but i suspect they wanted to strike a nerve, and god would have done a better job.

In all honesty, does striking a nerve with people usually arouse a "reasonable" or visceral, illogical response?

[NormanPride]

Exactly.

[starclassic tama]

yeah i agree it's not really effective. they were probably just operating under, i feel attacked let me attack back mentality. i would have went with something like, free thinkers unite, or whatever their slogan is, then a link to the site. that way people might see it and be curious and check out the site when they get home instead of just feeling insulted at the no god thing and not ever thinking twice about it again.

[soonerhubs]

yeah i agree it's not really effective. they were probably just operating under, i feel attacked let me attack back mentality. i would have went with something like, free thinkers unite, or whatever their slogan is, then a link to the site. that way people might see it and be curious and check out the site when they get home.

I suppose, in all fairness, I'll concede that they did get me to click on their website. :D

[Collier11]

awww i'm sorry for hurtin your little feewers. there is that whole ignore feature ya know

I could care less about you and your idiotic views on life, you have proven to be nothing more than a disrespectful and hateful person, therefore, I would prefer if you didnt respond to me or try and talk to me...easy enough

[JohnnyMack]

So which one are you? ;)
http://tulsa.unitedcor.org/sites/default/files/images/AboutUs.jpg


Seriously,
I don't find this any more or less annoying than the "Go to Hell!... Or heaven! It's your choice" billboards.
:D

Not in it actually. I know most of those people, but I wasn't at that meeting.

[JohnnyMack]

The reason it isnt necessary is because of the wording and the location, we all know that a huge majority of Oklahomans are Christians, some of them fanatical, the way it is worded makes it seem like a pot shot at Christianity, I heard the guy in an interview explain what their point was but why do you need to make the point that you dont believe in God. No one really cares if you dont believe in God, thats your choice.

To me this is like Gay people who make such a big deal about being gay, if you are gay that is fine and I have no issues with it but do you really need to go out of your way to show everyone that you are gay? By bringing more attention to something like this all you are doing is being unnecessary

I have just as much right to believe and promote my belief system as you do.

Sounds like you want everyone to be like you. :D

It's like you want to stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and sing Bible hymns and pretend the rest of the planet doesn't exist. It's kinda cute.

[starclassic tama]

I could care less about you and your idiotic views on life, you have proven to be nothing more than a disrespectful and hateful person, therefore, I would prefer if you didnt respond to me or try and talk to me...easy enough

it's a discussion board. meaning, someone posts a topic and people discuss it. i'm not talking to "you" personally. you post something on a discussion board, i'm going to discuss it. you don't like it, put me on your ignore list. easy enough

[starclassic tama]

I could care less about you and your idiotic views on life, you have proven to be nothing more than a disrespectful and hateful person, therefore, I would prefer if you didnt respond to me or try and talk to me...easy enough

it's a discussion board. meaning, someone posts a topic and people discuss it. i'm not talking to "you" personally. you post something on a discussion board, i'm going to discuss it. you don't like it, put me on your ignore list. easy enough

[OUMallen]

I've heard some people suggest that what ever people follow is their "god". I find that to mean things such as money, recognition from men, or even, I'd suggest, this society's version of "reason". Kind of paradoxical, no?

Grammatical aside: Does the period go before or after quotes? I always forget.

I think you're never supposed to leave a . outside the ". Ever. You can leave ! and ? outside the ". Even if you're quoting a single word.

He said, "The billboard isn't a big deal."

I would be happier if the billboard didn't said "God."

I think it looks awkward as hell, but I think it's right.

http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp

I feel like some of y'all are reading "my Christianity" into a generic "god" there. Could be Jewish god. Could be Islamic God.

[starclassic tama]

I could care less about you and your idiotic views on life, you have proven to be nothing more than a disrespectful and hateful person, therefore, I would prefer if you didnt respond to me or try and talk to me...easy enough

it's a discussion board. that means people post topics, and people discuss that topic. i'm not talking to "you" personally. if you don't like what i say, put me on your ignore list. when you put someone on your ignore list, that means you don't have to read what they say. easy enough.

[starclassic tama]

I could care less about you and your idiotic views on life, you have proven to be nothing more than a disrespectful and hateful person, therefore, I would prefer if you didnt respond to me or try and talk to me...easy enough

it's a discussion board. that means people post topics, and people discuss that topic. i'm not talking to "you" personally. if you don't like what i say, put me on your ignore list. when you put someone on your ignore list, that means you don't have to read what they say. easy enough.

[starclassic tama]

a

[starclassic tama]

I could care less about you and your idiotic views on life, you have proven to be nothing more than a disrespectful and hateful person, therefore, I would prefer if you didnt respond to me or try and talk to me...easy enough

this is a discussion board. meaning people post topics and people discuss them. i'm not talking to "you" personally. if you don't like what i say, put me on your ignore list. when you put someone on ignore, you can't read what they say. easy enough.

[GottaHavePride]

I think you're never supposed to leave a . outside the ". Ever. You can leave ! and ? outside the ". Even if you're quoting a single word.

He said, "The billboard isn't a big deal."

I would be happier if the billboard didn't said "God."

I think it looks awkward as hell, but I think it's right.

http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp

I feel like some of y'all are reading "my Christianity" into a generic "god" there. Could be Jewish god. Could be Islamic God.

I do it a little differently - if the quote completes its sentence I'll put the . inside the " ", as in your example. He said the billboard "isn't a big deal."

But if the quote is out of context and I'm just using it to complete MY thought, I'll put the punctuation outside the " ", like this:
Why did the billboard say "God" instead of "Religion"?

[SunnySooner]

The reason you see Christian billboards is because the Bible commands Christians to actively spread the word, aka "The Great Commission"--give the Good News of the Gospel to those who haven't heard. It is often done awkwardly and ineffectively, admittedly, but if you don't believe in God, why do you care what other people believe? Is there an atheist handbook that commands you to convert others to atheism? I FULLY support your right to NOT believe whatever you want, but why do you care so much about what I believe, and why do you want me to change those beliefs? What's it to you?

[picasso]

I find it funny that some folks feel like Christians are forcing their morality on them when all the while they are supporting some kind of cause or trying to cram things like environmentalism down our throats.
Christians have billboards around here, silly tv shows and preachers with bad haircuts. They also have homeless shelters downtown and donate a ton of time and money to the needy.

Such bastards.

[Collier11]

I have just as much right to believe and promote my belief system as you do.

Sounds like you want everyone to be like you. :D

It's like you want to stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and sing Bible hymns and pretend the rest of the planet doesn't exist. It's kinda cute.

Not at all JM, like I said though, the way it was presented/worded is unnecessary...those people who believe that way can believe whatever they wish, doesnt hurt my feelers

[soonerhubs]

Summary: It depends on the type of punctuation for quotes and capitalization for references to deity. Also Athiests and Religonists both have the right to use thought provoking billboard ads to proselytize. In short, I'll be impressed when this group knocks on my door in shirts and ties asking me to learn more.

[Collier11]

I would have no issue with it if the statement wasnt worded in a way that makes it seem like an attack on God, like someone else said, why not just say religion...there was a point to the billboard and it wasnt just to point out that Atheism is ok

[Collier11]

it's a discussion board. meaning, someone posts a topic and people discuss it. i'm not talking to "you" personally. you post something on a discussion board, i'm going to discuss it. you don't like it, put me on your ignore list. easy enough

Wake up in the morning, show respect for others, dont be a doosh, apparently a challenge for you.

[JohnnyMack]

I would have no issue with it if the statement wasnt worded in a way that makes it seem like an attack on God, like someone else said, why not just say religion...there was a point to the billboard and it wasnt just to point out that Atheism is ok

Actually the God we're talking about is the God of Islam. So, you lose.

[Collier11]

HEH

[XFollower]

Sign doesn't mean squat in my opinion. I choose to follow Christ.

[Collier11]

Good point and I agree, it just seems like they are going out of their way to be offensive while stating that they are just sayin its not all that bad, whatever...doesnt affect me

[Boarder]

What's TulsaCoR? I don't want to click on the website, I might get possessed with the atheist or something.

[soonerhubs]

What's TulsaCoR? I don't want to click on the website, I might get possessed with the atheist or something.

Tulsa Coalition of Reason.

Demons Out! ;)

[JohnnyMack]

Good point and I agree, it just seems like they are going out of their way to be offensive while stating that they are just sayin its not all that bad, whatever...doesnt affect me

I really don't understand why you interpret it as offensive.

This is a nationwide, grassroots effort at arousing the public conscious and making people who have similar thoughts or might be curious about life without religion an opportunity to see that their are people just like them out there. And that these people have jobs, families, mortgages and all the things believers have. The membership is comprised of people from all walks of life who you'll find aren't that different from yourself. People living life simply to try and adhere to a societal contract. The closest thing I could associate it to would be the golden rule.

If we were trying to be offensive, we could have come up with a lot more creative things to say. What the billboard is doing is trying to increase awareness that there exists a social network here in Tulsa for fellow nonbelievers.

[Collier11]

so why didnt they say religion then

[JohnnyMack]

It's cute that you think yours is the only God we'd be referring to. Seriously.

[Collier11]

There is only one God brother

[My Opinion Matters]

Evangelical atheism, huh? Nothing like being passionate about not believing in anything!

[bluedogok]

Evangelical atheism, huh? Nothing like being passionate about not believing in anything!
Just like with conventional religions there are "different flavors" of "atheism". To some is a "religion against religion", to others it is simply non-belief. In fact you could say the same thing about some of the "global warming/climate change" believers, some are believers and some "believe" with an evangelical zeal.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

God Bless Freedom!

[instigator]

I'm offended by that website design. ;)

[King Barry's Back]

I really don't understand why you interpret it as offensive.

This is a nationwide, grassroots effort at arousing the public conscious and making people who have similar thoughts or might be curious about life without religion an opportunity to see that their are people just like them out there. And that these people have jobs, families, mortgages and all the things believers have. The membership is comprised of people from all walks of life who you'll find aren't that different from yourself. People living life simply to try and adhere to a societal contract. The closest thing I could associate it to would be the golden rule.

If we were trying to be offensive, we could have come up with a lot more creative things to say. What the billboard is doing is trying to increase awareness that there exists a social network here in Tulsa for fellow nonbelievers.


Got a question for you atheists. This is an honest question, and I'd really like to hear the thoughts of anyone who'd like to share.

If you are atheists, and there is no God to determine standards of morality, why should there be a "societal contract" or "golden rule"? (Wasn't the Golden Rule taught by Jesus Christ himself? I'll have to look that up.)

For me, as a Christian, I believe that the life and ideals of Jesus Christ are divine, and are therefore designated by God to be true and absolute. Jesus believed that he (and we) should, for example, care for the poor, the sick and the weak. He taught that all humans had a soul and were worthy of just treatment. So, the modern concepts of human rights, gender rights, racial equality and working for world peace are the right paths as dictated by God himself.

But if I didn't believe that Christ and his teachings were divine, I would have a very hard time saying that one society was better than another. Why should a Golden Rule apply if there is no God?

Why not "The strongest gets to take everything?" like in the times of the Mongol hoardes? Why/how is slavery wrong if there is no God to say that it is? Why should we honor our neighbor if there is no God to say that we should?

I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

I have Atheists and Agnostics posit to me often that a God is unnecessary, as reasonable men can work out a social contract.

But if I am the strongest of the strong men, and could take/have anything that I want, what is to constrain me to follow the societal contract, if I don't judge it in my own interest?

And please, this is not an unserious question. Full disclosure, I have recently been reading about the Mongol hoards (Tamerlane, Genghis Kahn, etc) and how they lived unhindered lives of plunder, taking all (possessions, women, children) and destroying what was left behind.

Without a God of somekind, who/what can say their murderous lifestyle was wrong? They seem to have found that lifestyle very rewarding. Who can judge that society was wrong?

Who/what could motivate the powerful to regulate their behavior, if there is nothing and no one more powerful then they are?

[JohnnyMack]

Got a question for you atheists. This is an honest question, and I'd really like to hear the thoughts of anyone who'd like to share.

If you are atheists, and there is no God to determine standards of morality, why should there be a "societal contract" or "golden rule"? (Wasn't the Golden Rule taught by Jesus Christ himself? I'll have to look that up.)

For me, as a Christian, I believe that the life and ideals of Jesus Christ are divine, and are therefore designated by God to be true and absolute. Jesus believed that he (and we) should, for example, care for the poor, the sick and the weak. He taught that all humans had a soul and were worthy of just treatment. So, the modern concepts of human rights, gender rights, racial equality and working for world peace are the right paths as dictated by God himself.

But if I didn't believe that Christ and his teachings were divine, I would have a very hard time saying that one society was better than another. Why should a Golden Rule apply if there is no God?

Why not "The strongest gets to take everything?" like in the times of the Mongol hoardes? Why/how is slavery wrong if there is no God to say that it is? Why should we honor our neighbor if there is no God to say that we should?

I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

I have Atheists and Agnostics posit to me often that a God is unnecessary, as reasonable men can work out a social contract.

But if I am the strongest of the strong men, and could take/have anything that I want, what is to constrain me to follow the societal contract, if I don't judge it in my own interest?

And please, this is not an unserious question. Full disclosure, I have recently been reading about the Mongol hoards (Tamerlane, Genghis Kahn, etc) and how they lived unhindered lives of plunder, taking all (possessions, women, children) and destroying what was left behind.

Without a God of somekind, who/what can say their murderous lifestyle was wrong? They seem to have found that lifestyle very rewarding. Who can judge that society was wrong?

Who/what could motivate the powerful to regulate their behavior, if there is nothing and no one more powerful then they are?

It's not my desire to belittle the set of spiritual precepts by which you live. I respect both your right to worship as well as acknowledge that many mythologies/religions across the history of earth have done good by man.

However from both a historical and sociological perspectice you'd have to admit there's a certain arrogance in assuming that the savior of this planet is a highly stylized white man with his mythic all-powerful father figure sitting on high. Throughout history, the god or deity of a culture has reflected its people. So what we see with the Christian god is nothing new or significant. I have a hard time reconciling that the day to day life of a farmer living in China some 3,000 years ago was in any way influenced by your specific deity.

We could also discuss the countless parallels between Zoroastrianism, the Abrahamic religions and the belief system of ancient Egypt. Very little that has come forth from the Christian faith is inherently original or not found thematically through almost every belief set that has populated the globe at one time or another.

I respect a lot of the stories of the Bible, but I simply don't think they're anything more than standard analogies that have been repackaged to fit the culture that subscribes to them.

Overall my problem isn't with spirituality, it's with your assertion that somehow your belief set is somehow unique. Once you explain to me how Jesus influenced the Clovis Culture of ancient North America we'll talk more about its legitimacy.

We can talk about the social contract later. The one year old just woke up from his nap...

[Fraggle145]

Got a question for you atheists. This is an honest question, and I'd really like to hear the thoughts of anyone who'd like to share.

If you are atheists, and there is no God to determine standards of morality, why should there be a "societal contract" or "golden rule"? (Wasn't the Golden Rule taught by Jesus Christ himself? I'll have to look that up.)

For me, as a Christian, I believe that the life and ideals of Jesus Christ are divine, and are therefore designated by God to be true and absolute. Jesus believed that he (and we) should, for example, care for the poor, the sick and the weak. He taught that all humans had a soul and were worthy of just treatment. So, the modern concepts of human rights, gender rights, racial equality and working for world peace are the right paths as dictated by God himself.

But if I didn't believe that Christ and his teachings were divine, I would have a very hard time saying that one society was better than another. Why should a Golden Rule apply if there is no God?

Why not "The strongest gets to take everything?" like in the times of the Mongol hoardes? Why/how is slavery wrong if there is no God to say that it is? Why should we honor our neighbor if there is no God to say that we should?

I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

I have Atheists and Agnostics posit to me often that a God is unnecessary, as reasonable men can work out a social contract.

But if I am the strongest of the strong men, and could take/have anything that I want, what is to constrain me to follow the societal contract, if I don't judge it in my own interest?

And please, this is not an unserious question. Full disclosure, I have recently been reading about the Mongol hoards (Tamerlane, Genghis Kahn, etc) and how they lived unhindered lives of plunder, taking all (possessions, women, children) and destroying what was left behind.

Without a God of somekind, who/what can say their murderous lifestyle was wrong? They seem to have found that lifestyle very rewarding. Who can judge that society was wrong?

Who/what could motivate the powerful to regulate their behavior, if there is nothing and no one more powerful then they are?


Basically you are arguing that selection should favor society being structured by the strongest surviving, but even in nature it doesnt always work like that.

There are numerous scenarios in nature where in animal societies cooperation is favored. This all comes down to game theory. And the best scenario is usually for two parties involved is to cooperate. There are all sorts of punishment and cheating scenarios etc...

Why does society have to judge the mongol example as wrong or right? The Mongol example is "wrong" to us today because that behavior is negetively selected against by our society. At the time, they were the most powerful so they set the moral standard so in a sense it was right. In reallity it just is. We just put a different set of perceptions on it.

There are numerous examples of the the scenario you have put forth that have happened in human society throughout history... The murderous, powerful, etc... all eventually have had something check their power either society in general or something else that they do selects negatively on them.

[King Barry's Back]

JohnnyMack and Frag, thanks for responding.

Frag, you're answer was pretty complex. I'll think about that a bit before I comment on it.

JM, I think maybe you missed my point, or I failed to make it. I am not arguing for the superiority of Christianity, or (to coin a word) Christianity's "uniqueness."

Let me try to come at it differently.

Humans for eons have been drawn to religion, and I think it's probably because they realize that they will die, everyone they know will die, and for almost every human that ever lived, everything they have seen and known will be destroyed and they will be completely forgotten as if they never existed.

That's pretty bleak, so it's better to believe that something awaits us after death, to give meaning to life.

So most humans are probably drawn to religion because they are helpless. Maybe not the right word, but due to weakness or despair, something like that.

I am talking about something else.

I am talking about restraining your own desire to benefit others.

A man sees a women he wants. He takes her. She resists. He beats her relentlessly. He satisfies himself. She dies from wounds, along with her helpless children. He takes everything of value that she possessed, and kills her husband as well.

Did he do something wrong? My belief system says absolutely. That's not what Jesus taught. (I concede completely that not everything that Christians have claimed through the years actually is in accordance with what Jesus actually believed, did and said.)

So, if I am that man, and I am a Christian, I must restrain myself because that is what my God has commanded. But if I don't believe in a more powerful authority, and I don't believe that I will get a reward for faithful service, what tells me I shouldn't take that woman and destroy her world?

That's what I want to do. I have the physical strength to do it. I could make myself rich by taking everything around me.

A societal contract won't apply to me, unless I agree to accept the contract.

I think the contract is a bad deal, so why would I accept? Why don't I just plunder everything and enjoy this brief life here on earth as much as I can?

I think this gets us to the mindset of a Stalin. He lusted for absolute, mindless obedience and boundless authority. And he had absolutely no qualms about killing millions to get there, and to stay there.

Nothing ever checked his power, except death. Anything else that appeared as a possible check, he was willing to destroy immediately, again with absolutely no guilt.

If he believed in Christianity, or any religion that preached respect for all humans, then he couldn't have done that.

So how does a societal contract constrain a Stalin?

I apologize. I clearly can not express this idea clearly. Maybe you can understand it anyway. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

[StoopTroup]

Why are they looking towards Heaven on the billboard?

I'm betting they are just trying to get a sign from God.

I'll say a prayer that they get one. Millions have you know. :D

[JohnnyMack]

JohnnyMack and Frag, thanks for responding.

Frag, you're answer was pretty complex. I'll think about that a bit before I comment on it.

JM, I think maybe you missed my point, or I failed to make it. I am not arguing for the superiority of Christianity, or (to coin a word) Christianity's "uniqueness."

Let me try to come at it differently.

Humans for eons have been drawn to religion, and I think it's probably because they realize that they will die, everyone they know will die, and for almost every human that ever lived, everything they have seen and known will be destroyed and they will be completely forgotten as if they never existed.

That's pretty bleak, so it's better to believe that something awaits us after death, to give meaning to life.

So most humans are probably drawn to religion because they are helpless. Maybe not the right word, but due to weakness or despair, something like that.

I am talking about something else.

I am talking about restraining your own desire to benefit others.

A man sees a women he wants. He takes her. She resists. He beats her relentlessly. He satisfies himself. She dies from wounds, along with her helpless children. He takes everything of value that she possessed, and kills her husband as well.

Did he do something wrong? My belief system says absolutely. That's not what Jesus taught. (I concede completely that not everything that Christians have claimed through the years actually is in accordance with what Jesus actually believed, did and said.)

So, if I am that man, and I am a Christian, I must restrain myself because that is what my God has commanded. But if I don't believe in a more powerful authority, and I don't believe that I will get a reward for faithful service, what tells me I shouldn't take that woman and destroy her world?

That's what I want to do. I have the physical strength to do it. I could make myself rich by taking everything around me.

A societal contract won't apply to me, unless I agree to accept the contract.

I think the contract is a bad deal, so why would I accept? Why don't I just plunder everything and enjoy this brief life here on earth as much as I can?

I think this gets us to the mindset of a Stalin. He lusted for absolute, mindless obedience and boundless authority. And he had absolutely no qualms about killing millions to get there, and to stay there.

Nothing ever checked his power, except death. Anything else that appeared as a possible check, he was willing to destroy immediately, again with absolutely no guilt.

If he believed in Christianity, or any religion that preached respect for all humans, then he couldn't have done that.

So how does a societal contract constrain a Stalin?

I apologize. I clearly can not express this idea clearly. Maybe you can understand it anyway. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Does Jesus make you stop at a stop sign?

Adherence to or denial of the social contract is not reserved solely for religion.

To me whether or not one subscribes to a religion or not and whether or not one abides by a social contract don't have much to do with each other.

To say that the only way someone can follow a social contract is through religion is the very essence of the message we're attempting to convey.

[Fraggle145]

Does Jesus make you stop at a stop sign?

Adherence to or denial of the social contract is not reserved solely for religion.

To me whether or not one subscribes to a religion or not and whether or not one abides by a social contract don't have much to do with each other.

To say that the only way someone can follow a social contract is through religion is the very essence of the message we're attempting to convey.

Exactly. There is selection against breaking the societal contract, that has nothing to do with religion.

If you take the woman, then the police take you to jail.

If like Stalin you manage to keep power until death and make society accept your contract then bully for you. Chances are there would be more negative selection against a ruler that tried to impose that sort of contract these days, but look at North Korea.

The only reason those are considered "wrong" is because our society holds different values in its social contract.

[StoopTroup]

Ya know why millions of folks scream "Oh God" during teh secs?














Because they don't want it to kill em....they want to do it again and soon. ;)

[stoopified]

I find it funny that some folks feel like Christians are forcing their morality on them when all the while they are supporting some kind of cause or trying to cram things like environmentalism down our throats.
Christians have billboards around here, silly tv shows and preachers with bad haircuts. They also have homeless shelters downtown and donate a ton of time and money to the needy.

Such bastards.:)


There is only one God brotherBeat me to it brother.

[JohnnyMack]

I find it funny that some folks feel like Christians are forcing their morality on them when all the while they are supporting some kind of cause or trying to cram things like environmentalism down our throats.
Christians have billboards around here, silly tv shows and preachers with bad haircuts. They also have homeless shelters downtown and donate a ton of time and money to the needy.

Such bastards.

Well I'm an atheist who thinks that global warming, etc. is a bunch of crap, so don't lump me in your groups.

I will agree that as atheists, we need to spend more time promoting our image not as anti-Christian, which in our neck of the woods is unfortunately how it comes across, but rather as a viable alternative to organized religion. Plenty of us non-religious folks donate time and money to the less fortunate, we just do it in avenues that are not necessaily visible the way a church is.

[Collier11]

Thats the main issue JM, it shouldnt be about anti God for you guys, it should be about the lifestyle that makes you happy, no need to try and prove to others that what we believe is less viable and thats my issue with the billboard and the wording

[JohnnyMack]

Thats the main issue JM, it shouldnt be about anti God for you guys, it should be about the lifestyle that makes you happy, no need to try and prove to others that what we believe is less viable and thats my issue with the billboard and the wording

OK, so you be the PR firm and come up with a tag line for a billboard that we can use. Something that gets our point across in a direct manner.

[Collier11]

We are wrong!

Does that work for you? :D I keed

Hell I dont know, thats not my job. I mean does atheism really need to be promoted, do we need billboards saying that sheep humping is ok in or around Stillwater?
Some people choose to live alternative lifestlyes and that is fine, it really doesnt have to be broadcasted though does it?

[PDXsooner]

come on collier, is there any message more broadcast than religion? i mean, really...

[Collier11]

and if you cant tell from my post I was joking around with JM, I told him I dont have a clue what it should say but I think directing the billboard towards God is the wrong way of doing it.

[Fraggle145]

Thats the main issue JM, it shouldnt be about anti God for you guys, it should be about the lifestyle that makes you happy, no need to try and prove to others that what we believe is less viable and thats my issue with the billboard and the wording

I dont really get your sentiment in this thread C11. I mean any sort of promotion of a lifestyle without god would be taken as a threat by the religious community. It just seems like you are perturbed about any promotion of that lifestyle no matter how it comes out.

[Chuck Bao]

If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha. The Buddhist are not so wrapped up in the religion thingy.

[Collier11]

I dont really get your sentiment in this thread C11. I mean any sort of promotion of a lifestyle without god would be taken as a threat by the religious community. It just seems like you are perturbed about any promotion of that lifestyle no matter how it comes out.

I dont see it as a threat personally as in, it does not affect my faith, it does not hurt my feelings, what I see this billboard as is a pot shot at GOD when the intent is SUPPOSED to be showing that there is an alternative to religion if you so choose. If this was aimed at religion like they say then GOD should have been left out of it because whether or not there are many GODs in many religions we all know, especially in Oklahoma that GOD represents the Christian GOD to most

[FaninAma]

I've heard some people suggest that what ever people follow is their "god". I find that to mean things such as money, recognition from men, or even, I'd suggest, this society's version of "reason". Kind of paradoxical, no?

Grammatical aside: Does the period go before or after quotes? I always forget.

You are correct. Everybody has a "god" whether they realize it or not.

[JohnnyMack]

I dont see it as a threat personally as in, it does not affect my faith, it does not hurt my feelings, what I see this billboard as is a pot shot at GOD when the intent is SUPPOSED to be showing that there is an alternative to religion if you so choose. If this was aimed at religion like they say then GOD should have been left out of it because whether or not there are many GODs in many religions we all know, especially in Oklahoma that GOD represents the Christian GOD to most

You're viewing this through your Christian worldview, since you live in a region of a particular country that has a high concentration of Christians. You continue assuming that we're singling out the Christian god, when in fact we're talking about all of them. Now if it had said, "Good without Jesus" I'd say you have a more valid argument. As it is, you sound kinda selfish. :P

[FaninAma]

BTW, would someone identify these millions of people who don't believe in God and are "doing good" ?

[walkoffsooner]

They put it up there to get people thinking and talking about christ. They win

[JohnnyMack]

BTW, would someone identify these millions of people who don't believe in God and are "doing good" ?

*waves*

[Collier11]

You're viewing this through your Christian worldview, since you live in a region of a particular country that has a high concentration of Christians. You continue assuming that we're singling out the Christian god, when in fact we're talking about all of them. Now if it had said, "Good without Jesus" I'd say you have a more valid argument. As it is, you sound kinda selfish. :P

No crap, its a highly Christian nation and an even higher Christian state, that is why the inclusion of GOD on the billboard is seen as a pot shot.

[JohnnyMack]

No crap, its a highly Christian nation and an even higher Christian state, that is why the inclusion of GOD on the billboard is seen as a pot shot.

OK, you're right. Since most of the people around me are Christians, I'll just STFU and not say anything. I'll go sit in the corner and worship the devil*.



*That isn't real.

[Collier11]

Not what im saying, you are making this a Christian vs Atheist argument and thats not my point. My ONE AND ONLY point is this JM, if you want to promote Atheism or worshiping bunnies or whatever floats your boat, that is completely fine. Rent out a billboard, fly a plane, whatever you need to do if that is the cause that you want to promote. Just dont do it at the expense of my GOD. Whether you want to admit it or not, I know deep down you are a smart guy and you realize that including GOD on that particular billboard in Oklahoma was taking a shot at Christianity as opposed to merely promoting the cause. If it wasnt they would have just said religion

[NormanPride]

I, personally, think man will be smart enough to live without religion when they are smart enough to live without government.

[Fraggle145]

Not what im saying, you are making this a Christian vs Atheist argument and thats not my point. My ONE AND ONLY point is this JM, if you want to promote Atheism or worshiping bunnies or whatever floats your boat, that is completely fine. Rent out a billboard, fly a plane, whatever you need to do if that is the cause that you want to promote. Just dont do it at the expense of my GOD. Whether you want to admit it or not, I know deep down you are a smart guy and you realize that including GOD on that particular billboard in Oklahoma was taking a shot at Christianity as opposed to merely promoting the cause. If it wasnt they would have just said religion

I havent looked at their website so I am not sure how specific their message is... But without religion you can still have god. So if the group specifically espouses not to believe in a god, then just using religion doesnt accurately convey their message.

[NormanPride]

Then how about this:

"Reason, not faith"

It even ties to the organization's name. You can argue that "God" is universal, but it has pretty much been appropriated by the Judeo-Christian faiths and is commonly assumed to be a reference to those religions. If you used "Are you good without a god?" THEN it would be a generic reference to belief systems all over.

Really, this is not that hard to think out. If you're going to put up a sign, you have to mind your demographics.

[Fraggle145]

If you're going to put up a sign, you have to mind your demographics.

But then if I accept the premise that it is anti-christian (which I dont) I would say that it is still reaching its target audience... the atheist vs christian thought pattern is pervasive throughout the atheist community (I will save the reasons for that thought process for another thread).

[OklahomaTuba]

Millions? Heh.

[jkjsooner]

Why not "The strongest gets to take everything?" like in the times of the Mongol hoardes? Why/how is slavery wrong if there is no God to say that it is? Why should we honor our neighbor if there is no God to say that we should?


I'm not an atheist but I really must respond to this. Maybe I'm missing your point but I find it hard to believe that you really feel that a belief in God is the only reason one acts morally or obeys a social contract.

We are creatures who are inherently born with a conscience. Maybe sociopaths need to believe in God to control their behavior but for the rest of us we were born with empathy for others and the golden rule follows logically from that. Sure we're taught the golden rule but most of us have it in us naturally.

(That doesn't mean we always follow it of course. We still have a selfish side but with or without a belief in God most of us would consider the plight of our victims in the equation prior to performing a dreadful act.)

Maybe you are saying that God gives you your morality rather than saying that a belief in God leads your morality? That's fine and I believe that as well but that by no means proves that God exists. Cooperation, empthy, etc. are all powerful forces in the evolution of our species.

[OklahomaTuba]

Of course the 20th century alone has shown us what kind of "morality" that atheism spawns (Mao, Stalin, Hitler, etc)

[JohnnyMack]

Of course the 20th century alone has shown us what kind of "morality" that atheism spawns (Mao, Stalin, Hitler, etc)

Just like those Baptists that nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, eh?

[NormanPride]

But then if I accept the premise that it is anti-christian (which I dont) I would say that it is still reaching its target audience... the atheist vs christian thought pattern is pervasive throughout the atheist community (I will save the reasons for that thought process for another thread).

Okay, maybe I am assuming something incorrectly. I thought the purpose of the sign was to gather more members that feel the same way but do not know about TulsaCoR. Is this not the case? If it's to convert Christians to atheism, then I think it fails utterly. There's no real way to do that in a billboard, and I would think those who call themselves the "Coalition of Reason" would have realized that a long time ago.

Within the target demographic, the only thing that sign does is make people angry.

[JohnnyMack]

Okay, maybe I am assuming something incorrectly. I thought the purpose of the sign was to gather more members that feel the same way but do not know about TulsaCoR. Is this not the case? If it's to convert Christians to atheism, then I think it fails utterly. There's no real way to do that in a billboard, and I would think those who call themselves the "Coalition of Reason" would have realized that a long time ago.

Within the target demographic, the only thing that sign does is make people angry.

The target demographic isn't Christians we're attempting to convert to Atheism. It's current Atheists, Agnostics and the like who aren't aware that there are groups like this that are active in this area.

It's no different than someone putting up a billboard saying, "Dungeons & Dragons of Tulsa is wicked sweet!" with the web address of ddtulsadnerds.com.

[Frozen Sooner]

Of course the 20th century alone has shown us what kind of "morality" that atheism spawns (Mao, Stalin, Hitler, etc)

Why do you keep repeating the lie that Hitler was an atheist?

Do you think that if you keep repeating it it becomes true?

[Collier11]

yet they target GOD, you can spin it anyway you want but we all know who GOD is in America, if that singular name didnt reflect one person then it would cause so much uproar

[Frozen Sooner]

yet they target GOD, you can spin it anyway you want but we all know who GOD is in America, if that singular name didnt reflect one person then it would cause so much uproar

Eric Clapton?

[OklahomaTuba]

Just like those Baptists that nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, eh?I think they understood that ending the most destructive war in history was a lot different than slaughtering millions of innocent folks.

[OklahomaTuba]

Why do you keep repeating the lie that Hitler was an atheist?

Do you think that if you keep repeating it it becomes true?Its hardly a "lie" simply because a God fearing man would never had done what he did to God's chosen people.

[Frozen Sooner]

Its hardly a "lie" simply because a God fearing man would never had done what he did to God's chosen people.

You're so full of it it's unbelievable.

I suppose Ferdinand and Isabella were atheists too, right?

It's a lie. You've been given ample proof that whatever Hitler was, he wasn't an atheist. Yet you continue to post the same nonsense over and over.

[JohnnyMack]

I think they understood that ending the most destructive war in history was a lot different than slaughtering millions of innocent folks.

So the 100,000 innocents we killed by firebombing Tokyo was OK......because we won?

[NormanPride]

The target demographic isn't Christians we're attempting to convert to Atheism. It's current Atheists, Agnostics and the like who aren't aware that there are groups like this that are active in this area.

It's no different than someone putting up a billboard saying, "Dungeons & Dragons of Tulsa is wicked sweet!" with the web address of ddtulsadnerds.com.

Right, that's what I thought. Looking at it from an advertising perspective, I think the message could be revised to reduce backlash from the Christian community. "Good without a god?" would be my preference, but I kind of like "Reason, not Faith." as well since it mentions one of the key parts of your organization.

My main problem with the original is the demographics. Capitalization of the G in "God" implies the Judeo-Christian deity in this community, and you have to be aware of these things if you're going to better your relations with the religious organizations. Of course, if you don't give a crap, then fine. :D

[OklahomaTuba]

You're so full of it it's unbelievable.

I suppose Ferdinand and Isabella were atheists too, right?

It's a lie. You've been given ample proof that whatever Hitler was, he wasn't an atheist. Yet you continue to post the same nonsense over and over.

That's interesting, cause Hitler wrote many times how anti-religious he was. I remember this quote in particular...


National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things.

Maybe he was muslim???

[Frozen Sooner]

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out".

"For their interests [the Church's] cannot fail to coincide with ours [the National Socialists] alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life"

[Frozen Sooner]

By the way, there is a good evidence out there that Hitler had embraced Paganism by the end. Which is also not atheism. I'm not sure that your claim that Hitler wrote "many times" against Christianity is accurate. Most of what I can see that is imputed to him comes from the notes of Hermann Goering. Most of his speeches and Mein Kampf paint him as someone very vehement in claiming to be a Catholic.

Historically, the National Socialist movement was aligned closely in Germany with the Christian National Socialist movement.

[OklahomaTuba]

So the 100,000 innocents we killed by firebombing Tokyo was OK......because we won?Of course it wasn't, but It's obvious that America's judeo-Christian values are what led us to do a lot more to make amends for that tragedy than what Mao inflicted on his people during the cultural revolution or what Hilter did to the jews.

[Fraggle145]

Its hardly a "lie" simply because a God fearing man would never had done what he did to God's chosen people.

This is an example of using circular logic.

Hitler is an atheist.

Hitler was actually a christian.

a god fearing man wouldnt do what hitler did

Hitler is an atheist.

[OklahomaTuba]

By the way, there is a good evidence out there that Hitler had embraced Paganism by the end. Which is also not atheism.He definitely used his Christian heritage to attain power, no doubt about that.

And I've heard that some forms of paganism are atheistic in that the gods are not considered literal entites but aspects of the self.

[OklahomaTuba]

This is an example of using circular logic.

Hitler is an atheist.

Hitler was actually a christian.

a god fearing man wouldnt do what hitler did

Hitler is an atheist.

It's only circular logic if you ignore vital facts and common sense.

[Fraggle145]

this is how Tuba ruins threads.

Why did you to come into this perfectly well reasoned thread and just **** all over it?

[NormanPride]

It's only circular logic if you ignore vital facts and common sense.

Which you seem to do frequently.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Being a cat person, I'd prefer a billboard that says:

"Are you good without dog?


Millions are."

:pop:

[starclassic tama]

Millions? Heh.

.18 x 3.5*10^8 = 63 million

[Crucifax Autumn]

He definitely used his Christian heritage to attain power, no doubt about that.

And I've heard that some forms of paganism are atheistic in that the gods are not considered literal entites but aspects of the self.

That's actually inaccurate unless you want to consider Lavay's version of Satanism to be paganism. Most pagans align themselves with the notion of many literal gods and goddesses in a literal sense and/or consider said gods to be personifications of nature.

That's a VERY simplified version, but I really don't want to get into a 50 page description of the various forms of paganism. That's my wife's territory and she has more sense than me and doesn't come to this board! :P

[OUMallen]

Of course it wasn't, but It's obvious that America's judeo-Christian values are what led us to do a lot more to make amends for that tragedy than what Mao inflicted on his people during the cultural revolution or what Hilter did to the jews.

Juedo-Christian values. Gotta love that one too.

Those "values" are general ethics which existed in mankind prior to Judaism and Christianity.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Juedo-Christian values. Gotta love that one too.

Those "values" are general ethics which existed in mankind prior to Judaism and Christianity.

Kinda like Paganism? ;)

[jkjsooner]

Its hardly a "lie" simply because a God fearing man would never had done what he did to God's chosen people.

Let me understand your circular argument.

1. Assertion: All the ruthless actors were athiests.
2. It is proposed that person X was not an athiest.
3. Clearly you can't be a God fearing person and do what X did so therefore he was an athiest.
4. Therefore, assertion 1 is true.

Sorry, just completed the thread and realized that Fraggle already pointed this out.

The fact that almost every other reader here saw the circular nature of Tuba's argument yet he can't see it is telling.

[sidewinder517]

Funny.... Without the Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, ect....

The atheists don't have a leg to stand on. :rolleyes:

Just my ten cents carry on.

[Boarder]

Funny.... Without the Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, ect....

The atheists don't have a leg to stand on. :rolleyes:

Just my ten cents carry on.
Their "leg" would be natural selection, Darwin, Hume, and many other scientific and philosophical minds.

[StoopTroup]

What ever helps them sleep at night. Converting non-believers to some sort of worker bee that keeps the Obama Administration in tax money is OK by me. I like the Christian side of helping the poor and how much more rewarding my life has been since I started paying attention to the Life of Christ. Without him I evidently would be on here negging the heck out of everybody until I made them decent SoonerFan Posters. At least now I only pick on dooshes. ;)

[Chuck Bao]

What ever helps them sleep at night. Converting non-believers to some sort of worker bee that keeps the Obama Administration in tax money is OK by me. I like the Christian side of helping the poor and how much more rewarding my life has been since I started paying attention to the Life of Christ. Without him I evidently would be on here negging the heck out of everybody until I made them decent SoonerFan Posters. At least now I only pick on dooshes. ;)

Thank you Buddha that ST is not negging the heck out of me and I am probably on his dooshes list.

[royalfan5]

To be fair Rush has rocked pretty hard without religion and that has to count for something.

[StoopTroup]

Thank you Buddha that ST is not negging the heck out of me and I am probably on his dooshes list.

LMAO...I always forget the Fat Dude and his loyal bunch of nice chilled out folks....

[Crucifax Autumn]

Sounds like me in college with a hookah and some friends.

[BlackChipBJ]

Liberals and atheists are a hypocritical bunch. Their message: Don't push your views on me, but I am going to shove mine down your throat. F 'em!

[PDXsooner]

BTW, would someone identify these millions of people who don't believe in God and are "doing good" ?

define "doing good"

[MR2-Sooner86]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I do see a point Christians are making. In the Bible "God" is capitalized because he/she/it is a figure like Jesus and what we refer to. Now if you don't capitalize "god" then it can refer to any god.

"Are you good without god?"
"Are you good without God?"

Doesn't the capitalization change the meaning behind the word? I think so.

[Frozen Sooner]

define "doing good"

I don't believe in God but I do some volunteer work down at a soup kitchen and tutor elementary school kids. I think that qualifies, but who knows? According to the Bible, that doesn't count because I'm not doing it for the glorification of God.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

http://revart.blogs.com/minister_of_rants/images/2007/11/18/y_57030953v4_240x240_front.jpg

[SanJoaquinSooner]

http://melancholia.typepad.com/melancholia/images/2007/09/20/atheist.jpg

[SanJoaquinSooner]

http://www.krsnah.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/god-1.jpg

[SanJoaquinSooner]

http://www.atheistcartoons.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/thesign1.jpg

[BlackChipBJ]

Touchy, touchy.. You libs and atheists can drive this country into the ground, it doesn't matter. You'll get what's coming to you...

Oh, and I'll help you: Yes, that's very unchristian of me.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Oh, and I'll help you: Yes, that's very unchristian of me.


Really. More like God of the Old Testament.

http://imspeakingtruth.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/angry_god.jpg

[BlackChipBJ]

Really. More like God of the Old Testament.

http://imspeakingtruth.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/angry_god.jpg

I am not even close to GOD, but thanks.

[starclassic tama]

no, apparently you exist

[BlackChipBJ]

no, apparently you exist

You won't have to worry about me. If you're right, you turn into dust.. If you're wrong, may GOD be with you... I know which way/where you are currently headed, too bad for you.

[BlackChipBJ]

I don't believe in God but I do some volunteer work down at a soup kitchen and tutor elementary school kids. I think that qualifies, but who knows? According to the Bible, that doesn't count because I'm not doing it for the glorification of God.

"Snicker"

What a great rep reply. You can neg me all you want, I don't care. You're the miserable person, with a hole in their heart and life, that has to make childish remarks/ratings.

Snicker

[BlackChipBJ]

I don't believe in God but I do some volunteer work down at a soup kitchen and tutor elementary school kids. I think that qualifies, but who knows? According to the Bible, that doesn't count because I'm not doing it for the glorification of God.

Great for being a good, GODless bum on this earth. Your place in hades is still waiting, no matter how many bowls of soup you give out.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life: No man cometh unto the father, but by me".

"Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father"

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son."

"But whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world"


Good luck on your good deeds, great earthly one.

[Fraggle145]

:rolleyes:

[BlackChipBJ]

Frozen -

I am sure you'll flex your Sooner board muscle and ban me. Anyway, I'll get this out of the way... It's kind of ironic to read/hear/watch all the non-believers come to GOD right before their death.

You can Youtube/Google search for people that never had any interest in GOD. However, they're quick to call out to him when the towers are coming down or they are in a similar situation. Hopefully, they really find GOD in those split seconds.

[BlackChipBJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLW0jKKRXMo

4.37 mark:

"OH GOD! OH................" [as the tower collapses]

[BlackChipBJ]

Hell, even George Carlin was rumored to have accepted GOD when he was dying. Me? I hope he's burning in hell, but I am not GOD, and not near as forgiving. Human flesh and all.....

[starclassic tama]

actually what's left of carlin's human flesh is sitting about 6 feet beneath the ground right now. it is his SOUL that is burning, remember! because we all know how easy it is to burn inaminate objects! good thing his nerves are all dead so he doesn't have to feel it burn.

you sir are disturbed. might want to check with a mental health professional ASAP. even if god did exist, does anyone in their right mind really believe that he would want people running around fearing him before their every move? what kind of love is that? it's people like you with the cult mentality who make me so relieved to be GODLESS, it is nice!

[JohnnyMack]

Frozen -

I am sure you'll flex your Sooner board muscle and ban me. Anyway, I'll get this out of the way... It's kind of ironic to read/hear/watch all the non-believers come to GOD right before their death.

You can Youtube/Google search for people that never had any interest in GOD. However, they're quick to call out to him when the towers are coming down or they are in a similar situation. Hopefully, they really find GOD in those split seconds.

Ban you? Why the hell would he do that? You're the most interesting thing to happen to this thread.

[Frozen Sooner]

Hell, even George Carlin was rumored to have accepted GOD when he was dying. Me? I hope he's burning in hell, but I am not GOD, and not near as forgiving. Human flesh and all.....

Funny. You're sinning and you're non-repentant. Guess if I'm wrong we'll be hanging out together.

[OUMallen]

Hell, even George Carlin was rumored to have accepted GOD when he was dying. Me? I hope he's burning in hell, but I am not GOD, and not near as forgiving. Human flesh and all.....

You don't have to be Christian to know that being a vengeful jerk is kinda a-hole...

[soonerhubs]

I don't know why, but that little bit with Tuba talking about Adolph's religiosity or lack there of reminded me of this bit.

Says the Cretan, "All Cretans are liars."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liar_paradox

[BlackChipBJ]

actually what's left of carlin's human flesh is sitting about 6 feet beneath the ground right now. it is his SOUL that is burning, remember! because we all know how easy it is to burn inaminate objects! good thing his nerves are all dead so he doesn't have to feel it burn.

you sir are disturbed. might want to check with a mental health professional ASAP. even if god did exist, does anyone in their right mind really believe that he would want people running around fearing him before their every move? what kind of love is that? it's people like you with the cult mentality who make me so relieved to be GODLESS, it is nice!

"Human flesh and all" refers to me being flawed and has nothing to do with Carlin.

[Fraggle145]

"Human flesh and all" refers to me being flawed and has nothing to do with Carlin.

Heh, "flawed."

That's one word for it...

[TMcGee86]

To me this is like Gay people who make such a big deal about being gay, if you are gay that is fine and I have no issues with it but do you really need to go out of your way to show everyone that you are gay? By bringing more attention to something like this all you are doing is being unnecessary

Why do you hate Adam Lambert?

[NormanPride]

Because he has **** taste in eyeliner, duh.

[Collier11]

Plus, did you see the way he was ramming that guy and girls head onto his crotch, we all know if that was real the person woulda gagged, therefore biting the weenus...he needs more practice

[FaninAma]

*waves*

There's one. No, I'm actually asking for names of organizations. I'm not saying there aren't any, I'm just not aware of a whole lot of them outside of the occasional seasonal projects of certain groups like the Christmas drives of the police and firemen.

[swardboy]

http://tulsa.unitedcor.org/sites/default/files/images/TulsaCoR%20Billboard1.jpg

Oh great...ANOTHER religion.

[FaninAma]

Funny. You're sinning and you're non-repentant. Guess if I'm wrong we'll be hanging out together.

Heh. Hence the reason that religion of Christianity flounders in this day and age because its philosophy of total forgiveness has been ignored by most professed Chrisitians.

In actuality, all who truly believe what Christ taught recognize that they themselves are as big of sinners as anybody else and that we should unceasingly forgive all who commit hurtful actions aginst us as Christ unceasingly forgives us.

I must say I haven't quite got my arms around that concept, either. But it is a worthy goal.

[Collier11]

Heh. Hence the reason that religion of Christianity flounders in this day and age because its philosophy of total forgiveness has been ignored by most professed Chrisitians.

In actuality, all who truly believe what Christ taught recognize that they themselves are as big of sinners as anybody else and that we should unceasingly forgive all who commit hurtful actions aginst us as Christ unceasingly forgives us.

I must say I haven't quite got my arms around that concept, either. But it is a worthy goal.

This is also why Christians are unnecessarily attacked, I am a full fledged Christian, I Love Christ and have given my life to him. Even so I sin all the time and make stupid or selfish decisions, one thing I try not to do is to judge or act like im better than anyone else because of my faith or otherwise. Many who arent believers would see me as a Christian who is also a sinner (everyone is) and judge me for that like somehow im not a real Christian.

[Frozen Sooner]

This is also why Christians are unnecessarily attacked, I am a full fledged Christian, I Love Christ and have given my life to him. Even so I sin all the time and make stupid or selfish decisions, one thing I try not to do is to judge or act like im better than anyone else because of my faith or otherwise. Many who arent believers would see me as a Christian who is also a sinner (everyone is) and judge me for that like somehow im not a real Christian.

I think that the central message of Christ was that you should try not to sin, but that you'll fail, and as long as you're truly penitent you're forgiven.

I see nothing in the above that indicates you're not truly penitent for your sins, so I wouldn't consider you a hypocrite for failure in the quest for perfection.

[Fraggle145]

I think that the central message of Christ was that you should try not to sin, but that you'll fail, and as long as you're truly penitent you're forgiven.

I see nothing in the above that indicates you're not truly penitent for your sins, so I wouldn't consider you a hypocrite for failure in the quest for perfection.

Yep. One of the things I dont understand is that when atheists point out someone who is being hypocritical, why we seemingly always get a response along the lines of "Well you arent a christian so you wouldnt know." or "You arent a christian so you cant tell me I am being a hypocrite."

I mean I grew up christian (and probably so did the majority of American atheists) and I even taught sunday school, I know when someone is being a hypocrite.

[Collier11]

When you get down to it we are all hipocrites, some bigger than others. We are all sinners, some bigger than others, Christian or not, and we are all judgemental at times, some bigger than others, Christian or not.

The only thing I would ever ask of someone who is a non believer is to be the best person you can be even if you arent a believer, dont judge me, and dont act like your beliefs or lack of beliefs are better than mine are like some people on this board and all over the world do.

That is when I have issues with Atheists or the like, to make fun of my God or my beliefs simply because you choose not to believe is very weak.

[Frozen Sooner]

dont judge me, and dont act like your beliefs or lack of beliefs are better than mine are like some people on this board and all over the world do.


Funny, I think the same thing.

[Collier11]

Too bad my thought was 1st and better :eek:




:D

[Chuck Bao]

I don't see the billboard as attacking Christians. South Park attacks Christianity with their cartoon version of Jesus, in my opinion. I am still not okay with the excuse that South Park intends to offend or shock everyone. Or, they can and I'm not going to watch it.

The billboard has to spur debate and shouldn't that be a good thing? What good is faith if it isn't occasionally tested. Atheists have the same right to promote their views and it makes sense to promote their view in an area that probably atheists are a tiny minority and feel pressured by the majority.

Funny thing is that most here would probably support freedom of landowners to put up whatever sign on their property that they want. The only sign on my property is one for a church. It is my grandmother's church and that is what she wanted, so it is staying up.


LMAO...I always forget the Fat Dude and his loyal bunch of nice chilled out folks....

Heh! You must be thinking of the Chinese Buddha. I ain't so chilled but I'm working on it. The Thai Buddha version and the Mon and Cambodian versions going back at least 1,500 years were not fat, some even androgynous. Before the Adam Lambert jokes start, it is not a bad thing to think that male or female don't matter and we can have a female Buddha.

[Boarder]

when atheists point out someone who is being hypocritical, why we seemingly always get a response along the lines of "Well you arent a christian so you wouldnt know." or "You arent a christian so you cant tell me I am being a hypocrite."

If that's the response you get, that's ridiculous. The only explanation that I could give is that a number of Christians are ill-equipped to handle questions from outside the Christian bubble and those must have been the ones you have run into.

If they're being a hypocrite, they should admit it, thanks you for pointing it out, and apologize.

[Collier11]

I don't see the billboard as attacking Christians. South Park attacks Christianity with their cartoon version of Jesus, in my opinion. I am still not okay with the excuse that South Park intends to offend or shock everyone. Or, they can and I'm not going to watch it.

The billboard has to spur debate and shouldn't that be a good thing? What good is faith if it isn't occasionally tested. Atheists have the same right to promote their views and it makes sense to promote their view in an area that probably atheists are a tiny minority and feel pressured by the majority.

Funny thing is that most here would probably support freedom of landowners to put up whatever sign on their property that they want. The only sign on my property is one for a church. It is my grandmother's church and that is what she wanted, so it is staying up.



Heh! You must be thinking of the Chinese Buddha. I ain't so chilled but I'm working on it. The Thai Buddha version and the Mon and Cambodian versions going back at least 1,500 years were not fat, some even androgynous. Before the Adam Lambert jokes start, it is not a bad thing to think that male or female don't matter and we can have a female Buddha.

South Park attacks every single race, creed, and religion

[Crucifax Autumn]

Exc ept for those ****ing scientologists anyway!

[Frozen Sooner]

If that's the response you get, that's ridiculous. The only explanation that I could give is that a number of Christians are ill-equipped to handle questions from outside the Christian bubble and those must have been the ones you have run into.

If they're being a hypocrite, they should admit it, thanks you for pointing it out, and apologize.

I'm pretty sure that C.S. Lewis advocates exactly that response in Mere Christianity, though. Been a while since I've read it, so I may be misremembering.

[Crucifax Autumn]

I'd prolly say "advocated", but yeah...

[PDXsooner]

I don't believe in God but I do some volunteer work down at a soup kitchen and tutor elementary school kids. I think that qualifies, but who knows? According to the Bible, that doesn't count because I'm not doing it for the glorification of God.

yeah, exactly. i know many, many good people that are atheists and agnostics (which i consider myself.)

*different subject*

i'll tell you what's interesting for me lately is that i know a bunch of mormon families from my daughter's school (they're still a minority here, but there are a lot compared to oklahoma). i always grew up hearing about how "crazy" and "cultish" they are -- but that was from the lens of christians, and some baptist-type christians.

mormons are the nicests people in the world. their kids are well-behaved, they're smart, polite people. are their beliefs crazy? sure, but aren't all religions a little crazy when you think about it? it's as if the "christians" only tend to point out the extremist mormons as an example of all mormons...interesting...

[JohnnyMack]

An update on this Atheists Thanksgiving:

Our family had a very nice dinner with a Syrian man who recently converted from Islam to Atheism. A very courageous man who's endured death threats, lost his job and has been shunned by his community. His mother, who still lives in Syria, receives phone calls on a regular basis from unidentified callers who tell her she will never see her son alive again.

We also got our Salvation Army angel tree angel picked, bought the gifts and have it ready to turn back in.

[MR2-Sooner86]

An update on this Atheists Thanksgiving:

[overly hyper preacher voice]I'm going to Hell unless I can find Jesussss![/overly hyper preacher voice]

:D

[12]

Sounds like people with too much money to throw away on advertising to me.

Oh, and you can't exactly be "Christian" without believing in God. It is my understanding, they are one in the same.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Hang on, so for people that don't like organized religion there's an organized non-religion?

Seriously, I'm thinking about starting an anti-Oprah Book Club group because organized book clubs just **** me off. Does anybody want to join?

[My Opinion Matters]

Hang on, so for people that don't like organized religion there's an organized non-religion?

Seriously, I'm thinking about starting an anti-Oprah Book Club group because organized book clubs just **** me off. Does anybody want to join?

Don't forget how oppressed you are by those self-righteous Oprah Book Club Lovers.

:les: MOCK INDIGNATION!@#!@#!

[Fred Garvin]

Very interesting thread.

As an Atheist, I've, well...evolved from wearing it on my sleeve to taking a live and let live attitude. As a group, we will never make any headway as long as we fall into the stereotypes that Christians shackled us with.

One of the few things that do make me want to lose it is when the old and busted Hitler and Stalin comparisons come out. I always try to remember that there is an inverse correlation between religiosity and IQ, so it's best not to debate someone who won't even realize that you are kicking their *** all over the place.

This billboard was not even remotely intended as a shot at religion. I live in Broken Arrow and had never heard of this group so I will be taking a look. If only their website wasn't so lame.

[soonerhubs]

Very interesting thread.

As an Atheist, I've, well...evolved from wearing it on my sleeve to taking a live and let live attitude. As a group, we will never make any headway as long as we fall into the stereotypes that Christians shackled us with.

One of the few things that do make me want to lose it is when the old and busted Hitler and Stalin comparisons come out. I always try to remember that there is an inverse correlation between religiosity and IQ, so it's best not to debate someone who won't even realize that you are kicking their *** all over the place.

This billboard was not even remotely intended as a shot at religion. I live in Broken Arrow and had never heard of this group so I will be taking a look. If only their website wasn't so lame.

How did this study that I'm assuming you're citing define religiosity? Intrinsic, extrinsic, or some other form?

[Fred Garvin]

How did this study that I'm assuming you're citing define religiosity? Intrinsic, extrinsic, or some other form?

Well, there have been many studies going back to the 1920s. Certainly there is no set formula to determine something as intangible as religiosity.

The most recent study examined representative data from the National Longitudinal Study of Youth.

[Boarder]

I always try to remember that there is an inverse correlation between religiosity and IQ, so it's best not to debate someone who won't even realize that you are kicking their *** all over the place.

well wezzuns might just a better not be talkin with youse smart fellers, than! Since weezuns caint put toogethur a cormplete thought or nothing!

[soonerhubs]

Well, there have been many studies going back to the 1920s. Certainly there is no set formula to determine something as intangible as religiosity.

The most recent study examined representative data from the National Longitudinal Study of Youth.

Actually there are many classifications of religiosity, and it's important to identify which is which. I'll dumb this down for my religious colleagues. ;) In essence, intrinsic religiosity reflects how one internalizes his/her spiritual beliefs while extrinsic religiosity can be as simple as claiming membership in a church or filling a seat. (Further research using Q-sorts, qualitative methods, and contextual caveats are definitely needed in this realm, but are seldom funded due to the desire for political correctness.)

You'll have to excuse my religiousness, but would you mind citing that source/journal article?

I would prefer looking up what constructs and methods they used for myself. I'm also curious about the effect sizes, correlation and regression coefficients, and the representativeness of the sample. Statistical significance can truly mean nothing if one doesn't know what they are looking at.

I appreciate the National Longitudinal Study of Youth, but I also know that sometimes a construct can be as weak as a simple yes/no question.

[toast]

As a Christian I see this billboard as possibly having a positive affect in the long run. Maybe it will spark some debate...cause some people to look at their values - could end up being a win. At least the billboard isn't being used to advertise a strip club or other vices.

[Fraggle145]

Actually there are many classifications of religiosity, and it's important to identify which is which. I'll dumb this down for my religious colleagues. ;) In essence, intrinsic religiosity reflects how one internalizes his/her spiritual beliefs while extrinsic religiosity can be as simple as claiming membership in a church or filling a seat. (Further research using Q-sorts, qualitative methods, and contextual caveats are definitely needed in this realm, but are seldom funded due to the desire for political correctness.)

You'll have to excuse my religiousness, but would you mind citing that source/journal article?

I would prefer looking up what constructs and methods they used for myself. I'm also curious about the effect sizes, correlation and regression coefficients, and the representativeness of the sample. Statistical significance can truly mean nothing if one doesn't know what they are looking at.

I appreciate the National Longitudinal Study of Youth, but I also know that sometimes a construct can be as weak as a simple yes/no question.

I dont think your thoughts are normally distributed, you obviously adhere to a non-parametric religion.

[soonerhubs]

I dont think your thoughts are normally distributed, you obviously adhere to a non-parametric religion.

I agree. Some might say that the LDS church is an outlier. :)

Those two standard deviations are rough sometimes. ;)

[SicEmBaylor]

I do not approve of this billboard. It seems wholly unnecessary.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Don't forget how oppressed you are by those self-righteous Oprah Book Club Lovers.

:les: MOCK INDIGNATION!@#!@#!

If one more Oprah Book Club member shows up at my house with some ****ing pamphlet on the virtues of a fat black woman that put Obama in the White House, I'm going to go postal!

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Very interesting thread.

As an Atheist, I've, well...evolved from wearing it on my sleeve to taking a live and let live attitude. As a group, we will never make any headway as long as we fall into the stereotypes that Christians shackled us with.

One of the few things that do make me want to lose it is when the old and busted Hitler and Stalin comparisons come out. I always try to remember that there is an inverse correlation between religiosity and IQ, so it's best not to debate someone who won't even realize that you are kicking their *** all over the place.

This billboard was not even remotely intended as a shot at religion. I live in Broken Arrow and had never heard of this group so I will be taking a look. If only their website wasn't so lame.

What stereotypes? Your condescending attitude? Your self-righteousness? Looking at your post, I can't see how any of those stereotypes would have come about?

[JohnnyMack]

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20091205_18_A13_Thisbi111328

[JohnnyMack]

http://tulsa.unitedcor.org/sites/default/files/images/GoodWithoutGod.jpg

[SicEmBaylor]

http://tulsa.unitedcor.org/sites/default/files/images/GoodWithoutGod.jpg

Heh, the Unitarian Church. I know very little about them, but they must have a hell of an agenda. I say that because Baylor's "illegal" GLBT organization called "Baylor Pride" meets at the Unitarian Church in Waco.

I don't care too much one way or the other. I only mention it because it seems to be how the Unitary Church differentiates itself.