Belichick's arrogance costs Pats a win...

[Ground_Attack]

good for him. He finally show the football world the genius he is. going for it on 4th and 2 at your own 29 yard line with 2 minutes left in the game. Very close call gives it to the Colts who drive it right down NE's throat. Colts win 35-34. Nice job, coach! :D

[tommieharris91]

Just wondering, what do you gain if you make the 4th and 2 there rather than give them the ball at like their own 30? It's not enough reward for a VERY risky call.

[PDXsooner]

arrogance? when stoops did it it was called BALLS.

[Sooner04]

Just wondering, what do you gain if you make the 4th and 2 there rather than give them the ball at like their own 30? It's not enough reward for a VERY risky call.
Well, if they convert the game is over. I guess that's the reward.

BB must have thought his defense was too gassed to mount any sort of resistance.

[PDXsooner]

Just wondering, what do you gain if you make the 4th and 2 there rather than give them the ball at like their own 30? It's not enough reward for a VERY risky call.

in essence you end the game. i remember a day once when men were men. remember when stoops went for it on 4th and 1 in college station in '06? yea, that's right, back when he had balls of steel.

[JLEW1818]

good for Billy!

[JLEW1818]

in essence you end the game. i remember a day once when men were men. remember when stoops went for it on 4th and 1 in college station in '06? yea, that's right, back when he had balls of steel.

yep i was at that one.. AD was right behind him telling him to go for it. (he was hurt)

12 men on the field

[Sooner98]

I didn't have a big problem with the call, nor did I have a problem when Stoops went for it. If they did punt it, that situation had a Manning-led TD drive written all over it.

[tommieharris91]

in essence you end the game. i remember a day once when men were men. remember when stoops went for it on 4th and 1 in college station in '06? yea, that's right, back when he had balls of steel.

But still, based on what I saw the Pats didn't have much of a running game tonight, so you if you try to line it up in an I-formation chances are you don't make it. They needed 2 yards, so a sneak won't work. So now they're stuck with a short pass, which the defense knows is the most likely read. Of course, if you don't make it, you give Peyton Manning 30 yards to a victory. Even if they do make it, the Colts had 1 or 2 timeouts left, so the Pats couldn't convert it and takes knees for the win.

It certainly wasn't the right call.

[nighttrain12]

Shades of Barry Switzer as Dallas coach trying it against the Eagles and Emmitt Smith not making it.

[PDXsooner]

But still, based on what I saw the Pats didn't have much of a running game tonight, so you if you try to line it up in an I-formation chances are you don't make it. They needed 2 yards, so a sneak won't work. So now they're stuck with a short pass, which the defense knows is the most likely read. Of course, if you don't make it, you give Peyton Manning 30 yards to a victory. Even if they do make it, the Colts had 1 or 2 timeouts left, so the Pats couldn't convert it and takes knees for the win.

It certainly wasn't the right call.

that is the definition if a monday morning quarterback. it wasn't the right call because he didn't make it, not because of any of that mumbo jumbo you just posted...

[Ruuuuuufus]

in essence you end the game. i remember a day once when men were men. remember when stoops went for it on 4th and 1 in college station in '06? yea, that's right, back when he had balls of steel.

When Stoops did it, A&M had no way to stop the clock. The Colts would have had the 2-minute warning and a timeout in the pocket.

[Spanish Sooner]

I remember that A&M game because I was at the game surrounded by aggies (and sitting 3 people down from Paul Thompson's grandpa). I remember the time out right after Paul Thompson got it the first time, and I was like, oh man, then of course we got it again, oh no flag, and then the 12th man penalty it was classic. Thompson's Grandpa was ecstatic. He even kept shouting Boomer during the aggie war hymn, when everyone was shouting.

[tommieharris91]

that is the definition if a monday morning quarterback. it wasn't the right call because he didn't make it, not because of any of that mumbo jumbo you just posted...

Uhh no, if the Pats make it the call still isn't right. The bolded statement is monday morning QBing.

[PDXsooner]

yea, ok.

[tommieharris91]

yea, ok.

Well, you just made it clear that you don't like well thought out football analysis.

I always love playing against people who think this way in poker. They chase and chase with 8d6c, and they're vindicated when their inside straight hits on the river. So they keep making plays like this, never realizing the long odds of hitting that straight, and it keeps missing much more often than it hits.

[bluedogok]

I don't think arrogance came into it, more like he didn't have faith that he defense could stop them, which could be construed as the opposite of arrogance. I also don't think you throw the ball to someone right on the first down line either. Looked like he should have run a little deeper route or Brady should have looked for someone else because Faulk was pretty much covered on the play.

[PDXsooner]

Well, you just made it clear that you don't like well thought out football analysis.

I always love playing against people who think this way in poker. They chase and chase with 8d6c, and they're vindicated when their inside straight hits on the river. So they keep making plays like this, never realizing the long odds of hitting that straight, and it keeps missing much more often than it hits.

it's not rocket science -- he felt that peyton manning would slice through his defense (like he had just done), and wanted to keep the ball away from them so manning wouldn't do it again (like he did). stop it with the poker analogies. did you ever play sports?

[Curly Bill]

Oh good lord, the: "did you ever play sports line." :O

[Leroy Lizard]

Shades of Barry Switzer as Dallas coach trying it against the Eagles and Emmitt Smith not making it.

Which I thought was a good call.


When Stoops did it, A&M had no way to stop the clock. The Colts would have had the 2-minute warning and a timeout in the pocket.

True. But if the Pats convert, Indy has to burn their timeouts on defense.

Sometimes you just have a feeling that gambling will pay off, although I am not sure if a fake punt wouldn't have worked better. I do know one thing: Belichik is the best coach in the business, so I think he gets a pass on this one.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I didn't have a big problem with the call, nor did I have a problem when Stoops went for it. If they did punt it, that situation had a Manning-led TD drive written all over it.With a likely PREVENT defense, a Manning TD could indeed be predicted.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I always pull against the Colts. Don't like their owner, and what he did to the city of Baltimore. Also, Manning is overexposed, and went to Tennessee, who steals high school football players from Oklahoma on a regular basis. I got nothing against Belichick. Too bad they couldn't pull it off.

[tommieharris91]

it's not rocket science -- he felt that peyton manning would slice through his defense (like he had just done), and wanted to keep the ball away from them so manning wouldn't do it again (like he did). stop it with the poker analogies. did you ever play sports?

1. Yes, I played football in high school. And yes, this call deserves this type of analysis. Lastly, playing sports means zilch if you don't understand (or even care to understand) why a bad call is a bad call.

2. Manning threw a pick the drive before that. It's not like NE was getting scored on every single drive.

I'll throw out something that Belichick did to compound this problem. Kevin Faulk didn't actually have a bad game rushing. So what does he do? He splits out his best rusher to catch the pass, compounding a bad decision with a bad play call.

[Leroy Lizard]

Kevin Faulk didn't actually have a bad game rushing. So what does he do? He splits out his best rusher to catch the pass, compounding a bad decision with a bad play call.

Did Belichik call the play, or his OC?

Also, I am sure whoever called the play had taken this into account. Football is a game of matchups so must have felt that the play would work given all you say. The fact that it didn't proves nothing.

[tommieharris91]

Did Belichik call the play, or his OC?

Also, I am sure whoever called the play had taken this into account. Football is a game of matchups so must have felt that the play would work given all you say. The fact that it didn't proves nothing.

So you must have missed the part where I said that a short pass was predictable there? Leaving Faulk in as a RB there maybe makes the defense think more about the run.

[Leroy Lizard]

So you must have missed the part where I said that a short pass was predictable there? Leaving Faulk in as a RB there maybe makes the defense think more about the run.

I didn't say anything about predictability. I said matchups.

[tommieharris91]

I didn't say anything about predictability. I said matchups.

SS Melvin Bullitt ended up covering him. If it was a linebacker that ended up taking him, the matchups might have mattered a bit more.

[Leroy Lizard]

SS Melvin Bullitt ended up covering him. If it was a linebacker that ended up taking him, the matchups might have mattered a bit more.

Yes, but sometimes you have no idea who is going to matchup with whom when calling the play. Hindsight.

[sooner59]

I personally would have punted. But I do not question him for going for it. As a viewer, I absolutely knew the Colts had the win when they were down 13 and scored. I am a Pats fan, and I saw this loss coming from a mile away. I had no doubt the Colt would score the winning TD from either 30 yardline. I don't have a problem with going for it. Sucks they didn't have a timeout for a challenge. I think after Faulk bobbled it, he gained possession right at the 1st down mark. It was a terrible spot. But they couldn't challenge and it wasn't under the 2 minute mark, so what are you gonna do? Tough....just have to keep winning.

[PDXsooner]

Oh good lord, the: "did you ever play sports line." :O

oh god, you again...

[PDXsooner]

1. Yes, I played football in high school. And yes, this call deserves this type of analysis. Lastly, playing sports means zilch if you don't understand (or even care to understand) why a bad call is a bad call.

2. Manning threw a pick the drive before that. It's not like NE was getting scored on every single drive.

I'll throw out something that Belichick did to compound this problem. Kevin Faulk didn't actually have a bad game rushing. So what does he do? He splits out his best rusher to catch the pass, compounding a bad decision with a bad play call.

it's easy to analyze it now. at the time you have about 5-10 seconds to make the call. if you went with the math every time like you were suggesting with the poker analogy, you'd never go for it on 4th, never fake a punt or field goal, etc. it was a ballsy call that cost him the game. but it could have been a back-breaker that ended the game. great call.

[tommieharris91]

Yes, but sometimes you have no idea who is going to matchup with whom when calling the play. Hindsight.

Very true.

[tommieharris91]

it's easy to analyze it now. at the time you have about 5-10 seconds to make the call.

The Pats took a timeout to think it over, and went with this anyway.
f you went with the math every time like you were suggesting with the poker analogy, you'd never go for it on 4th, never fake a punt or field goal, etc.

Horribly untrue. Many coaches are wrong for punting on 4th and 1 because the chances of converting a 4th and 1 are very high and often worth the reward of keeping a drive alive. In 2006, Stoops wasn't wrong to sneak it. The difference between that night and tonight is that (if I recall correctly) ATM didn't have a timeout and the distance was a least a yard shorter. Should it be done every time? Of course not. But should it be done more often in fairly ordinary situations? Yes.

[Leroy Lizard]

The Pats took a timeout to think it over, and went with this anyway.

The Pats coaching crew knows what it's doing. They are easily one of the best crews in football at any level. So if they took this much time to think it over and decided to do what they did, then there must have been a good reason to think it could have worked.

I am not going to second-guess Belichik too often. He is possibly the greatest head coach in NFL history. (And I think he is.)

[kevpks]

Well, you just made it clear that you don't like well thought out football analysis.

I always love playing against people who think this way in poker. They chase and chase with 8d6c, and they're vindicated when their inside straight hits on the river. So they keep making plays like this, never realizing the long odds of hitting that straight, and it keeps missing much more often than it hits.

I think the odds of one of the best QBs in the NFL hitting a two yard out pattern for a first down are a little better than hitting an inside straight on the river. He did hit the pass and might have even gotten forward progress on a challenge. His biggest blunder was the usage of timeouts, not going for it. I wouldn't say going for it was the right call, but it was certainly no long shot.

[VA Sooner]

No faith in a very tired Patriots defense. More faith in the offense which up until the fourth quarter was making a game of it.

With 2 yards, better part of valor was to punt the ball.

Then again, hindsight being 20/20...

[85sooners]

Which I thought was a good call.



True. But if the Pats convert, Indy has to burn their timeouts on defense.

Sometimes you just have a feeling that gambling will pay off, although I am not sure if a fake punt wouldn't have worked better. I do know one thing: Belichik is the best coach in the business, so I think he gets a pass on this one.good call all the way

[badger]

arrogance? when stoops did it it was called BALLS.

That was an interesting situation. It was also (I think) the last REALLY close game Stoops won. Fran Fran had just kicked a field goal when Aggie was down by 4, making it a one-point game. We were at about our own 20.

It was 4th and 1. Stoops gave the order to punt, but the looks in his offense's faces made him decide to go, according to media reports. I imagine the fact that it was College Station, a place you try to leave as quickly as possible, also figured into the equation. We always run the ball a lot when we're there. Gotta keep that clock running.

Anyway, the ending is anything but Patriot-like: We shamed the tradition-strong Ol' Army Aggies with one of their own traditions: The 12th Man. They had 11 of their guys stacked at the line, while a 12th man in the backfield probably forgot to count. They got flagged, we win.

Best part was is that we would have gotten the 1st Down even if we missed.

The story is one that will be retold much better than I just did for years to come, because Aggies tend to be bitter about us lately (you know, 77-0 and all, plus this past weekend). What coach wouldn't want the opportunity to have a similar story for him to tell for years to come?

[rawlingsHOH]

arrogance? when stoops did it it was called BALLS.

The difference between 4th-and-2, and 4th-and-1 FOOT is huge.

[TUSooner]

I didn't have a big problem with the call...If they did punt it, that situation had a Manning-led TD drive written all over it.

Yes.
I'm very glad the Colts won, but I don't fault Bill's call one bit. It was a chance to seize the victory with one play, and they darn near made it. A little better spot, and we're saying Bill's the Man. Yep, he gambled and lost, but punting to Peyton Manning with 2 minutes left did not promise a good result anyway, no matter how much confidence you have in your defense. I say Bravo to Bill for playing to win the game.

[Leroy Lizard]

I think you have to make a few of these calls from time to time for the players. They always want to gamble, and usually unwisely.

[badger]

The difference between 4th-and-2, and 4th-and-1 FOOT is huge.

I think it's worth pointing out that college teams go on 4th down a waaaaaaay lot more often than pro teams do, regardless of where the ball is.

Growing up on the pro game (Go Pack Go! tee hee @ Dallas), I was surprised with how many faked punts and faked field goals and fandom demands that the team go on 4th down.

It is pretty much a given that a pro team will do some type of kicking on 4th down on offense.

[goingoneight]

Remember the commercial quote:

"No 4th quarter lead is safe with Peyton Manning on the other side of the ball."

I guarantee you that was the exact mindset of Bellicheat.

[wishbonesooner]

Oh make no mistake, Bellichek will get questioned, big time. None of the media people like him. He rarely makes a mistake, so they'll jump on this deal.

[nighttrain12]

This Patriots loss will get analyzed again at the end of the season. Such as, if the Patriots miss the playoffs by one game or have to play a playoff game on the road instead of at home because of this loss, then Belichick will get criticized again.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Yes.
I'm very glad the Colts won, but I don't fault Bill's call one bit. Why is it you wanted the Colts to win that game?

[tulsaoilerfan]

The Pats coaching crew knows what it's doing. They are easily one of the best crews in football at any level. So if they took this much time to think it over and decided to do what they did, then there must have been a good reason to think it could have worked.

I am not going to second-guess Belichik too often. He is possibly the greatest head coach in NFL history. (And I think he is.)

Not even close to Lombardi

[westbrooke]

I think it's worth pointing out that college teams go on 4th down a waaaaaaay lot more often than pro teams do, regardless of where the ball is.

Growing up on the pro game (Go Pack Go! tee hee @ Dallas), I was surprised with how many faked punts and faked field goals and fandom demands that the team go on 4th down.

It is pretty much a given that a pro team will do some type of kicking on 4th down on offense.

Spencer Hall from EDSBS has an interesting discussion of this in his Alphabetical column (http://www.sbnation.com/2009/11/16/1159807/the-alphabetical-week-11-where-4th) this week. Scroll down to B. He mentions that difference in the NFL and college mentalities.

[TXBOOMER]

I'd say if any coach in the history of the game gets a break on a call that didn't work out it just might be that dude.

[Soonerborn03]

I was calling for him to go for it. I'm glad he did, and it's too bad it didn't work out.

The only problem I have with the plays is that the play before, the colts blitzed and left the middle wide open while all of the receivers ran outs. I wanted them to run some slants on 4th down, but they chose to go with outs again. On 4th down, the middle was open again.

Despite that, I still like the call. It went against "the book" and I'm glad he had the stones to make a call like that. I echo what TU said that he made a call to win the game rather than lean heavily on his defense against the best 2-minute QB in the game.

[Leroy Lizard]

Not even close to Lombardi

I think he's better than Lombardi. I can see arguments for both. Lombardi took over a worse team and won more titles, but when he started coaching the NFL only had 12 teams. Winning an NFL championship in 1960 was like winning an SEC title today.

[Leroy Lizard]

Spencer Hall from EDSBS has an interesting discussion of this in his Alphabetical column this week. Scroll down to B. He mentions that difference in the NFL and college mentalities.

I especially enjoy watching K is for KIA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCpcAum2BSM

Totally bizarre.

[pappy]

I think it was the players fault not BB's arrogance. He's a great coach and if he just had better players or players with more experience or if his rb wouldn't bobble catches and his pro bowl left tackle wasn't hurt and some of his defensive starters weren't hurt and it wasn't on the road against a good team then the pats would've won the game and it wouldn't have been close.

I mean right?

That's the same excuses of people on here when KW sucks on road games against a good team.

[Curly Bill]

I think it was the players fault not BB's arrogance. He's a great coach and if he just had better players or players with more experience or if his rb wouldn't bobble catches and his pro bowl left tackle wasn't hurt and some of his defensive starters weren't hurt and it wasn't on the road against a good team then the pats would've won the game and it wouldn't have been close.

I mean right?

That's the same excuses of people on here when KW sucks on road games against a good team.


:D

[Leroy Lizard]

I think it was the players fault not BB's arrogance. He's a great coach and if he just had better players or players with more experience or if his rb wouldn't bobble catches and his pro bowl left tackle wasn't hurt and some of his defensive starters weren't hurt and it wasn't on the road against a good team then the pats would've won the game and it wouldn't have been close.

I mean right?

That's the same excuses of people on here when KW sucks on road games against a good team.

And like KW, Belichik is considered to be a great coach by all but some bitter hometown fans. I mean, the guy wins three Super Bowls but the fans get on him because he gambles on a play call.

[Sooner04]

I think he's better than Lombardi. I can see arguments for both. Lombardi took over a worse team and won more titles, but when he started coaching the NFL only had 12 teams. Winning an NFL championship in 1960 was like winning an SEC title today.
Belichick better start winning more championships if he wants to even be in the discussion with Lombardi. I HATE the Packers, but the run those guys had in the 60s was incomparable.

Lombardi won his last nine postseason games.

[badger]

Belichick better start winning more championships if he wants to even be in the discussion with Lombardi. I HATE the Packers, but the run those guys had in the 60s was incomparable.

Lombardi won his last nine postseason games.

They named the Super Bowl trophy after him for a reason :D

Now if they name anything after Coach Hoodie, I might puke worse than Gundy post-tirade.